Kain’s wars.
I’ve been watching this debate about different kinds of wars (Erik, Erik, Will, Erik, Erik, Will) get muddier and muddier, and I want to try to clear things up if I can, but without getting into any complicated issues of Crusades historiography.
Erik’s original claim was that “[t]here are only two kinds of wars: Defensive wars and wars of Plunder.” Then, faced with examples like Vietnam and WWI, he adds the category of “wars of folly” for wars where nobody will possibly be able to plunder enough to make up for the costs of war. Given these three categories, “There is no just war except a war fought in self defense – not preemptive defense, not some abstract defense of freedom.”
It seems to me that the concept of “legitimacy” is pulling a lot of weight underneath Erik’s claims. See, for example, his argument that some revolutions are wars of defense and others are wars of plunder: “Either a legitimate group is splintering off from an illegitimate state and thereby defending their right to sovereignty, or an illegitimate group is breaking off from a legitimate state thereby plundering land and resources from their own country.”
So if I’m correctly reading between the lines, a state or people group is fighting a war of defense if its claims (territorial or political) are legitimate, and it is fighting a war of plunder if its claims are illegitimate. Furthermore, I assume Erik would say that if a nation or people group enters a war on behalf of an ally, legitimacy is transitive, though I’m not clear on this. Was the first Gulf War a war of Plunder? If France invaded Canada, would it be legitimate for the USA to send troops to help our northern neighbors? Either way, wars in which no claims over territory or resources seem to be at stake or in which original claims have become irrelevant are wars of folly.
There are at least three related problems with this view of war:
- Legitimacy is not a straight-up objective thing. There’s no legitimacy directory to which we can appeal when there’s a dispute. There are cases that would probably be construed as ambiguous under any theory of legitimacy: for example, it’s easy to see how a badly translated treaty could make a huge mess of territorial claims or rights to resources. (The Treaty of Waitangi is a real-world example of a mistranslated treaty that comes to mind; happily, the resulting conflicts have been handled judicially rather than militarily.) While territorial sovereignty is now a well-established principle and we can regard any military attempt to take over another nation’s populated territory as illegitimate, we can’t easily apply that principle in the case of revolution or civil war.
- The claims for which a nation fights can shift during the course of a war. I think Erik acknowledges this, but it’s pretty crucial for understanding what was at stake for the United States during the Civil War: Lincoln shifted the official aims of the war with the Emancipation Proclamation. Another example would be Roosevelt’s declaration during WWII that the Allies would accept nothing less that unconditional surrender from Germany and Japan, which arguably made WWII something other than a purely defensive war. So claims can be both mixed and modified, and this makes the task of moral analysis more difficult.
- Not all military action is best understood as having to do with things that can be conceived of as claims. So the USA’s fighting in Vietnam had a lot more to do with trying to restrict the USSR’s sphere of influence than any claims about the legitimacy of the government of South Vietnam. (But note that there was a relevant dispute about legitimacy.) If Erik wants to think of wars for geopolitical advantage as wars of plunder, that’s OK, though I think there’s some use in drawing a distinction. But I think we shouldn’t close the door on the possibility of a humanitarian intervention that’s both non-defensive and justifiable. I don’t particularly want to defend any of the USA’s interventions under Clinton, and I’m definitely not in favor of willy-nilly military incursions into troubled nations, but at the same time I don’t think invading a country if there’s there’s a real chance of halting genocide is wrong in principle.
(One final note: the “war on drugs” is not actually a war in any sense that’s relevant here. It’s a sustained campaign of anti-cartel foreign policy and stringent domestic law enforcement. The phrase is metaphorical. I wish I didn’t have to say this.)
Thanks for this. You should post more, William.Report
I don’t think the debate has gotten muddy – I thought my last post on the Crusades was a model of blogging clarity.
Humanitarian interventions are a good example to bring up, though.Report
@Will, I think the muddiness is sort of intrinsic to arguments about the Crusades.Report
@William Brafford, There are, of course, many legitimately “muddy” debates to be had about the Crusades. But I think it’s quite obvious that the whole enterprise can’t be reduced to material self-interest (or “plunder,” if you will).Report
@Will, I agree with you that the Crusades can’t be reduced to material self-interest. But it seems to me that Erik’s expanded definition of “plunder” is about more than filling up the royal treasury. At any rate, if I’m right that we’re really talking about legitimate claims, the Crusades will be a tough example because medieval notions of legitimate government are so foreign to us.Report
I agree, this is a very good post. And whether the discussion has shed light or mud is up for debate at this point. I do have more to say on this and on Will’s post and hopefully will say it tomorrow. Cheers.Report
From this American’s viewpoint Vietnam was a war of folly on our part. LBJ did not want to be the first president to lose a war and he wanted to out anti-commie the Republicans. From the Vietnamese point of view it was a war of defense. I just wish a few of the best and brightest had read an incredibably good book about Vietnam called “The Fire on the Lake” before starting that war. There is a very valid reason why the Chinese border stops at Vietnam and it is not mountains. Those people want to rule themselves. Fifty some thousand dead Americans and at least a million dead Vietnamese later the makers of Agent Orange bought another island to hide their money.Report
@dexter45, “before starting” the Vietnam War is an extremely fraught concept.Report
@Michael Drew, In what way? If LBJ hadn’t wanted to start a war, why did he have to create a reason? Also, “Fire on the Lake” was not published until 72, so that sentence should have read ” could have read” instead of “had read”.Report
@dexter45, Johnson didn’t start the war. He either entered it or expanded our involvement in it, depending on how you look at it. My guess is that’s where Michael is coming from.Report
@dexter45, If what you meant is “before the first of Johnson’s major escalations after the Tonkin incidents,” then that’s a discreet historical moment, like “the Ameican invasion and overthrow of Saddam’s regime in 2003,” and unlike “before the start of the Vietnam War.” The very conflict in which we engaged so deeply in Vietnam was ongoing long before Americans were involved in any way, and then American involvement itself long predated even the earliest moment that the U.S. could be said to have started fighting in the war in an earnest way. That is what made it such a devastating experience for us: at the start no one was envisioning anything like the level of engagement we quickly reached. Taken in full, it was of course folly. But it wasn’t implemented in its totality at the outset; it was implemented in a series of increments, and indeed from early on there were deep misgiving among the central “architects” (they were in fact nothing of the kind) about the possible outcomes. McNamara himself plead with Johnson to get out of Vietnam in ’65. Likely he was wrestling in part with realities (or implications thereof showing up in his systematic military analyses) laid out in the book you reference. This is all to say that you’re absolutely right that an empirical, substantive understanding of Vietnam would have clearly militated against major U.S. military engagement, but that the relevant facts were not unknown to policy makers, and that, as ever, the thing to look at in understanding the genesis of a policy in history that doesn’t make a lot of sense on the merits are 1) the contemporary political factors working on the decision makers, and 2) legacy/hangover effects of previous policy on the question at hand, and how that frames (1).Report
dexter noted a good point. Different countries will have different understandings of why a particular war was fought. Also i think its important to distinguish between why we think a war was fought in retrospect and what the people involved thought they were doing. The Germans before WW1 and WW2 felt surrounded by enemies and that they would not survive without living space. Part of the German’s feeling they needed to fight WW1 was the thought, which turned out to be wrong, they needed colonies to be world power. All the other big Euro countries had all the good colonies so they felt helpless and doomed in the long run with them. Plunder was certainly part of it, but also a drive for survival was a part of it.Report
Might as well muddy things even more and tyry to analogize, I suppose. So…
How does this apply to personal conduct? I suppose tyou could argue that there are only two kinds of face-punching; defensive face-punching and face-punching of plunder.
Someone might counter with all kinds of examples of a different kind. Say someone says something completely unhinged to your wife or girlfriend. I am old-fashioned enough to think that fighting words actually exist, and that some words, when spoken in certain ways, really do justify a physical remedy. Again, I know it’s hopelessly retrograde, but there it is.
No, I guess you could still chalk this up to face-punching of plunder, and say I resorted to fisticuffs only to preserve ready mating opportunities, or to protect same from future threats. But that seems like incredibly tortured logic to me.
What I don’t get is what value there might be in taxonimizing in this way. What does the existence of three or four types of wars or (face-punching) mean, as opposed to two? In ED’s case, it seems to me that by limiting it to two (being plunder and defense) the goal is to limit options. No one attacked you physically? Then any military move you consider amounts to plunder. I suspect the world might be better if everyon thought that way. But they don’t.Report
What level of hostility is necessary before preemptive defense becomes defense?
What happens when the potentially cost of waiting for that level of hostility becomes catastrophically expensive?
Who dies for someone’s ethical hairsplitting?Report