The Flag Flap

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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59 Responses

  1. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    The part that irritates me the most is the difference of “before” and “after” on the Wikipedia page dedicated to this flag.

    Report

  2. Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    The flag is just a data point documenting Alito’s bias and inability to be impartial.
    Added to Ginni Thomas’s embrace of the insurrection, and it becomes clear that these two can’t be trusted to fulfill the duty of their office.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
      Ignored
      says:

      I know that you’re not arguing that bias and inability to be impartial is a bad thing, Chip. As if this is the first time that a judge has done something like this.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
        Ignored
        says:

        Yeah, whattabout that?
        From your link:
        Who gets to decide what is an appearance of impropriety?

        Hint: It starts with V and rhymes with “motors”

        And I’m happy to put the facts in front of them and let them decide.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          You want voters to elect Supremes? These would be the same voters that gave us Trump?Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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            says:

            Those same voters will be deciding in November whether that was a mistake or not.

            Which is why I think its noteworthy that reforming the court and expanding it has gone, in just a space of two or three years from a crazy unthinkable idea to something reasonable people are discussing.

            This is entirely due to the behavior of Thomas and Alito, and the decisions wrought by the, Kavanaugh and Coney Barrett resulting in as Saul notes, tween rape victims being forced to carry their pregnancies to term and women with miscarriages being forced to bleed out to the point of death.

            It used to be that we liberals had to make all sorts of arguments about “What will happen” but now we just need to link to a headline.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
              Ignored
              says:

              If you’re trying to claim Alito’s wife flying a flag is a reason to remove him from the court, then the core problem is you don’t like his policies.

              For that matter if moving abortion to the states is the issue than it’s “we need to pack the court because I don’t like the rulings”.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
      Ignored
      says:

      You need a lot more data points, even if you’re only trying to establish they have crazy wives.Report

  3. Pinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Is that all of them? Thomas takes bribes, Kavanaugh’s a drunken rapist, Coney Barrett and Gorsuch both somehow shouldn’t be on the court because of Garland, and this. Is there some liberal justification for why Roberts’s opinions shouldn’t be treated as valid?Report

  4. LeeEsq
    Ignored
    says:

    There is an argument that the Further Left likes to make that Ultra-Wealthy elites like using social reactionary arguments as a way to dupe the Working Class to vote against their interests. I always hated this argument and the Alito flag affair is why. The conservative elites are loony true believers.Report

  5. Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    Imagine if one of the three Democratic appointees to the Supreme Court had a “in this house” sign on their front lawn. It would be about the only thing right-wing media discussed for weeks.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      (writes down “the ‘Appeal to Heaven’ flag is the equivalent of an ‘in this house’ sign” on stickynote)Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw
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      says:

      Even if they did, lets look at the equivalence:
      Liberals are biased in favor of forcing conservatives to treat minorities as equals;
      Conservatives are biased in favor of treating minorities as inferiors.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels
        Ignored
        says:

        I need to make that my tag line somehow.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
        Ignored
        says:

        Liberals are biased in favor of forcing conservatives to treat minorities as equals

        If you really want to scare a conservative, show him (always a “him”) this sign from Martha’s Vineyard:

        Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          Jaybird, you saw that double-thinking happen in real time, do you really think Chip is going to actually remember doing it?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck
            Ignored
            says:

            I admit to enjoying watching what people actively avoiding remembering do to avoid remembering.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
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            says:

            As history recorded, the good people of Martha’s Vineyard were very welcoming towards the immigrants, unlike the shameful treatment by Republicans.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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              says:

              “They wanted to force conservatives to treat minorities as equals. They certainly couldn’t do that at Martha’s Vineyard.”Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                The good people of Martha’s Vineyard treated the migrants dumped at their airport in the middle of the night quite well – feeding them, housing them and helping them connect to refugee services which moved them to cities better equipped to assimilate them through jobs, housing medical care and educational opportunity.

                How you and anyone else see this as double think and thus some sort of repudiation of Chip’s point remains beyond me.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                They kicked their asses out of Martha’s Vineyard in fewer than 48 hours, Phil.

                Why? Well, I’ll tell you:

                They wanted to force conservatives to treat minorities as equals.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Um, yeah, no.

                How Migrants Flown to Martha’s Vineyard Came to Call It Home
                Florida flew 49 migrants from Texas to the liberal enclave last year. Since then, a few of them have found work, friends and a new life on the wealthy island.

                Ms. Cauro is one of at least four migrants who have quietly stayed behind on the island, forming bonds with a community that opened what doors it could. Ms. Cauro, 25, is working as a landscaper. Her brother, Daniel, 29, and her cousin, Eliud Aguilar, 28, found jobs in painting and roofing.

                They first stayed in the homes of Martha’s Vineyard residents who invited them in, and then began earning enough money for a house of their own, with the four of them currently chipping in $1,000 a month each for a two-bedroom house. They got bicycles to ride around town.

                “I did not even know where Martha’s Vineyard was. And now I feel welcomed by everybody here. I’m working, making friends and this is home for me now,” Ms. Cauro said with a wide smile. “This is home now. I don’t want to leave.”
                https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/28/us/migrants-desantis-marthas-vineyard.htmlReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I honestly didn’t know that! I thought that they drove out 100% of the migrants, not 92% of them.

                I’m glad that they were able to find jobs as helpers and I’m thrilled that they can afford the $4k/month rent.

                They obviously benefitted from being transferred there.

                (In my defense, I believed what was being reported at the time.)Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I remain … intrigued … how helping people move to places where there are services that can actually help them is seen as a bad thing. The folks in Martha’s Vineyard helped these people – the ones who put them on the flights had no care about what happened to them after the plane took off.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I think it’s the “let’s take a very public position that we never expect to have to live up to” to then find somebody has called you out to put your money where your mouth is. I got a c note that the folks of Martha’s vineyard never expected anyone to show up, and when they did, they “migrated” 92% of them somewhere else–kinda like what happened to the migrants in the first place.

                Now, if they we really serious about this, the folks of MV would have reached out to Texas or Az, or other places to say “we can take some folks off your hands”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                It’s kind of old school. You may have to go back to remembering what Team Good used to believe.

                Business B is having a group of Employees go on strike for… I dunno. More wages, better treatment, whatever.
                Business B fires said Employees and hires New Employees that actually want to work for Business B.

                Why is this not a win-win scenario?

                It has to do with the whole concept of “solidarity” and who gets it and who doesn’t.

                (I absolutely understand siding with Business B, for what it’s worth.)Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                ‘They’, as in the people’s of Martha’s Vineyard, didn’t do anything. The Republican governor provided free transportation to any who wanted off it the island, where they had basically no employment prospects as the peak season was ending. Most of them took it. A few managed to find jobs on the island.

                Remember, folks, when one Republicans governor makes a mess somewhere, it’s up to another Republican governor to fix it, and then Republicans get to pretend the problem somehow proves something about Democrats.

                All this actually proved is that extremely rich and expensive vacation communities are not particularly good at having a bunch of available jobs for unskilled laborers just sitting around for anyone to take. Or cheap housing. Which, I mean, I think we probably could have guessed that?

                To quote wikipedia: The year-round working population of Martha’s Vineyard earns 30 percent less on average than other residents of the state while keeping up with a cost of living that is 60 percent higher than average.

                Yeah, I wonder _why_ refugees, when offered the choice to go literally anywhere else, took the _Republican governor_ up on that offer.

                Massachusetts _itself_ is actually pretty good at resettling refugees. Just not, you know, random extremely rich locations that already have the non-extremely-wealthy residents already struggling.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                ‘They’, as in the people’s of Martha’s Vineyard, specifically talked about what ‘they’ did. Search for the string “permit”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                They sneer at the sign because they cannot comprehend people actually believing of such a thing.

                This is why right wing true believers are indistinguishable from right wing grifters because for them it’s all the same.Report

  6. Philip H
    Ignored
    says:

    This needs to be read over and over by every conservative here:

    The real issue is that Republicans continue to excuse and rationalize the Trumpist attack on the Capitol and attempt to steal the election. It is not the media’s fault that Republicans ignored the radical fringe usage of the Pine Tree flag until the Alito flag backlash.

    I’ll believe that Republicans want to preserve the historic meaning of the Pine Tree flag when I see them start to call out QAnon, election deniers, and Christian Nationalists who fly the banner. Until then, my position is that good and reasonable people should not associate themselves with what has become a banner that is representative of right-wing extremism. If Republicans don’t like that, they have no one to blame but themselves for allowing the radicalism to take root in their party.

    Report

  7. Burt Likko
    Ignored
    says:

    David, you’ve changed my mind about this.

    Yes, I think Alito’s conduct demonstrates a decidedly non-judicial temperament. I think reasonable people would perceive a higher-than-comfortable degree of bias on display under the circumstances. (I am super not interested in any conduct by any other judge. Alito’s flying of those flags under those circumstances is what’s at issue. Go “whatabout” to someone else.)

    But the fact that there was no code of conduct controlling Alito, or his wife,* at the time, means that we need to confine our inquiries to something that broke no rule, much less any law. It’s not even clear that the newly-adopted SCOTUS code of judicial conduct would prohibit these.

    Now, whether that code of conduct has teeth (probably not), and whether it’s broad enough to produce appropriate judicial behavior (probably not), remain to be seen. But Alito himself doesn’t seem to have done anything wrong here. That’s what we should consider to be the real scandal.

    * Yes, codes of judicial conduct can, do, and should reach to the conduct of judicial spouses and other immediate household and family members. Less so than the judges themselves, but for things that might reasonably be perceived as the personal actions or interests of the judge? Yeah, that’s properly regulable.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      How do we jump from “flying the flag inappropriately” to “bias”? Bias for/against whom? Do the Supremes have a flag case again this year?Report

      • InMD in reply to Dark Matter
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        says:

        My main take away from this episode is that Alito’s wife is kind of a twit who is oblivious to how unbecoming it is for the spouse of a justice of the supreme court to get into some idiotic feud with a neighbor.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
        Ignored
        says:

        Alito wasn’t “flying that flag inappropriately”.

        He was giving aid and comfort to insurrectionists who tried to overthrow a free and fair election.

        This isn’t just some opinion that reasonable people can take or not. This is a betrayal of his oath to support the Constitution.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          Yeah, um, that’s how I’m seeing it.

          The flag flown upside down is one thing. The fact you’re supposed to use that if in distress is pretty well known, and has been used by a _lot_ of protest movements, and just individuals upset at the US. I would normally be reluctant to read any support for any _specific_ movement into that…although I would still suggest it is inappropriate for an official of the US government to fly it like that, and it is entirely reasonable to ask them to explain exactly what this ‘distress’ is.

          It could be a protest in a general, maybe they don’t like current speed limit on their street and think such things qualify as ‘distress to the Republic’. That’s insane sounding, but they have a right to have an insane position on that. So by itself, we can’t make a conclusion there.

          The ‘Appeal to Heaven’ flag, OTOH, absolutely no one even knows what that is outside of a very small group, and it is extremely hard to even pretend there _might_ be reasons for flying it outside of showing support for their cause. We can just assume what this is about, unless they are some sort of flag officiando and random fly pre-Revolutionary flags of various types. And we can probably assume the upside-down American flag was about the same thing.

          If they are flying a protest flag or something about a very specific group, that creates conflict of interest (Which wouldn’t exist for protests about speed limits.), and they need to recuse themselves when looking into crimes done by that movement. I say ‘need’, not ‘required by law’, apparently we have absolutely no law on this, but it is something that they need to do for the court to retain even the tiniest wift of legitimacy.

          And it is relevant what the group is doing, why it exists. Stop the Steal is, functionally, a criminal organization that basically existed to stop the legitimate transfer of power in this country. If Alito had, for example, flown some flag showing support for the NRA, I would be much more reluctant to say he had to recuse himself from NRA cases.

          I mean, he probably should still, but Americans, even supreme court justices, are allowed to have general political opinions. What supreme court judges really shouldn’t have is sympathy for criminal operations that threaten the Republic, and if they do, the absolute least they can do is recuse themselves from cases about those things.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC
            Ignored
            says:

            Its important to point out that the “distress” here wasn’t some action by the government which could reasonably be constructed as infringing on anyone’s rights.

            The “distress” was that a free and fair election had been held, and they lost.

            What they are “appealing to heaven” is that people who tried to violently overthrow that free and fair election are being held accountable and jailed for crimes they committed.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          You are assuming what you should be trying to prove.

          I’ve fought with my neighbors, I’ve had an unstable wife. The idea someone is flying the flag wrong to piss of the neighbors passes some sort of smell test. We know for a fact that his wife is fighting with the neighbors because the cops have gotten involved.

          If you want to show Alito is “giving aid and comfort” then you should have a lot more evidence than a flag.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      I’d be amused to see you suggest in a court that that citing precedent is “whatabouting”.

      “Alito himself doesn’t seem to have done anything wrong here. That’s what we should consider to be the real scandal.”

      bro there is a whole amendment to the US Constitution about how people are allowed to say things, you cannot just blow that off with a little hand-flip and a snort about “whatabouting”Report

  8. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    From the SF Chronicle: S.F. removes controversial ‘Appeal to Heaven’ flag from Civic Center Plaza. It flew there for decades

    From George Orwell’s 1984:

    On the sixth day of Hate Week, after the processions, the speeches, the shouting, the singing, the banners, the posters, the films, the waxworks, the rolling of drums and squealing of trumpets, the tramp of marching feet, the grinding of the caterpillars of tanks, the roar of massed planes, the booming of guns—after six days of this, when the great orgasm was quivering to its climax and the general hatred of Eurasia had boiled up into such delirium that if the crowd could have got their hands on the 2,000 Eurasian war-criminals who were to be publicly hanged on the last day of the proceedings, they would unquestionably have torn them to pieces—at just this moment it had been announced that Oceania was not after all at war with Eurasia. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Eurasia was an ally.

    There was, of course, no admission that any change had taken place. Merely it became known, with extreme suddenness and everywhere at once, that Eastasia and not Eurasia was the enemy. Winston was taking part in a demonstration in one of the central London squares at the moment when it happened. It was night, and the white faces and the scarlet banners were luridly floodlit. The square was packed with several thousand people, including a block of about a thousand schoolchildren in the uniform of the Spies. On a scarlet-draped platform an orator of the Inner Party, a small lean man with disproportionately long arms and a large bald skull over which a few lank locks straggled, was haranguing the crowd. A little Rumpelstiltskin figure, contorted with hatred, he gripped the neck of the microphone with one hand while the other, enormous at the end of a bony arm, clawed the air menacingly above his head. His voice, made metallic by the amplifiers, boomed forth an endless catalogue of atrocities, massacres, deportations, lootings, rapings, torture of prisoners, bombing of civilians, lying propaganda, unjust aggressions, broken treaties. It was almost impossible to listen to him without being first convinced and then maddened. At every few moments the fury of the crowd boiled over and the voice of the speaker was drowned by a wild beast-like roaring that rose uncontrollably from thousands of throats. The most savage yells of all came from the schoolchildren. The speech had been proceeding for perhaps twenty minutes when a messenger hurried on to the platform and a scrap of paper was slipped into the speaker’s hand. He unrolled and read it without pausing in his speech. Nothing altered in his voice or manner, or in the content of what he was saying, but suddenly the names were different. Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia! The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work! There was a riotous interlude while posters were ripped from the walls, banners torn to shreds and trampled underfoot. The Spies performed prodigies of activity in clambering over the rooftops and cutting the streamers that fluttered from the chimneys. But within two or three minutes it was all over. The orator, still gripping the neck of the microphone, his shoulders hunched forward, his free hand clawing at the air, had gone straight on with his speech.

    Report

  9. Brandon Berg
    Ignored
    says:

    I have to admit that Democrats rallying around the principle that Supreme Court Justices need to keep their b*tches in line was not on my bingo card for the 2020s.

    That aside, is this the new “OK sign is a white power symbol?” Is there any evidence that an upside-down flag was widely used or recognized as a “stop the steal” symbol prior to this month? I found one picture of a “stop the steal” protester carrying an upside-down flag, but given the traditional use of an upside-down flag as a symbol of distress, that is at best very weak evidence for the claim being made here.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Brandon Berg
      Ignored
      says:

      You now what the funny thing is? Like, you have a picked a reasonable position to try to argue, in fact, that’s the position I picked that the flag upside down can mean all sorts of protest things. You can go read my comment, it’s up there.

      …except for the what the post here _also_ points out is that they also flew a different flag outside their vacation home, the ‘Appeal to Heaven’ flag, an extremely obscure flag that 99.999% of people have not heard of but is used by the ‘stop the steal’ movement.

      Which makes it rather obvious what the upside down flag was about.Report

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