Trump And Harris Agree on No Tax On Tips

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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74 Responses

  1. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s one vaguely irritating thing about the whole campaigning thing that gets me: “If re-elected, I will do X!”

    “Why didn’t you do X when you were in office?”

    But I’m pleased that President Harris will do something about the border. I understand that the old administration’s Border Czar wasn’t very good.Report

  2. Philip H
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    says:

    For Rosenthal, the idea fails on three counts: equity, efficiency and revenue.

    A national ban on taxing tips would disproportionately benefit, for example, a South Carolina server who earns a reduced minimum wage and makes a large portion of their income through tips. While a server in California, where tips make up a smaller portion of their income, would benefit less.

    “Why treat employees, who perform similar kinds of services, much different from a tax standpoint just because the first earn tips and the second don’t?” the tax lawyer said.

    Rosenthal went on to say that a no tax on tips law would be extremely difficult to efficiently administer, regulate and oversee.

    “How are we going to tell who is receiving a tip, and when that tip crosses a line into wages?” Rosenthal said. “How will we prevent investment bankers, say, from getting tips? And if we impose income limits, well, wouldn’t we expect low paid workers just to demand a tip rather than compensation?”

    Ultimately, he said, it would distort the labor market. But the biggest barrier for Congress is the money they’d lose.

    “The revenue on this proposal to exempt tips from taxation is something like a couple hundred billion over a 10-year period,” he said. “That’s a big number for Congress to swallow.”

    https://www.npr.org/2024/08/11/nx-s1-5071144/no-tax-on-tips-campaigns-trump-harrisReport

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      “How will we prevent investment bankers, say, from getting tips?”

      Is the worry that investment bankers pay an appropriate amount of tax now and the worry is that, if the law changes, they’ll find ways to hide income in nooks and crannies of the tax code?Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        No, the worry is that low wage workers – who rely on tips to make up the difference in compensation – will simply demand nothing but tips from their employers which will then not be tracked in the IRS system. Even if you are taking tips (as income) to a zero tax rate, you are theoretically required by the tax code to report them. The quoted economist is using exaggeration to try and prove his point.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        Treating income in different ways panders to different groups. Investment bankers have lots of pull so they were able to get their income treated differently by the tax code. Waiters and waitresses, and anyone else who might work for tips (judges and politicians now?) don’t have a lot of pull except in election years, so this is their turn.

        Let’s treat all income the same. Tax it as ordinary income. R’s always say they’re for less regulation, so let them put their money where their mouths are.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      It’s a bad idea for all of the above and more!

      It’s also a free 7.65% reduction in payroll taxes for whatever portion of wages companies can shift to tips. There will be perverse incentives for more businesses to move wages to tips… and ring-fencing by industry won’t last for more than a cycle or two.

      What’s the recourse for ‘wage thievery’ when customers don’t tip? Nothing.

      I for one, being a rational tipper will discount all of my tips by appox 20% to account for the reduction in tax burden.

      Dumb idea and any politician who proposes it is dumb.Report

  3. CJColucci
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    says:

    A bad, bipartisan idea and BSDI pandering, so, politically, a wash.Report

  4. Saul Degraw
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    says:

    We should just pay people living wages and get rid of tipping.

    Also stop normalzing Trump, the man doesn’t have ideas beyond his own self-interest, he has grunts and gestures in search of that sometimes.Report

  5. Chris
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    says:

    The obvious solution which makes tip workers and economists both happy is to get rid of tips altogether, and pay restaurant workers the wage they would get with tips. Restaurant owners can add this to the price, since the customers would have paid it anyway through tips, so it doesn’t even hurt them that much, except that the many, many bar and restaurant owners who are currently not paying their FOH workers would have to actually start paying them.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Chris
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      says:

      I agree in principle… there are, however, legitimate service oriented issues that tipping is supposed to address. A better approach that I advocated for when I was in restaurant/wine service would have been a commission approach based on check averages or just raw sales – plusses and minuses to both. Basically your tips correlated to sales already, but the key to success was both increasing the sale and the experience simultaneously.

      The negative would be the server who ignores the experience to simply drive sales/commission… but this is a known sales issue that can be solved for with pre-existing management and evaluation criteria.

      Ultimately, customer experience drives sales (increasingly in all the new business models) and it becomes a win/win for an industry change on front-of-house wages.

      Back of house wages are a different kind of disaster, and 100% should be tied to revenues, volume, throughput.Report

      • Chris in reply to Marchmaine
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        says:

        Part of why I would want to get rid of tips is to avoid the sorts of emotional labor that are involved in tip-based jobs, and I don’t think a commission-based system would do that. I’d be OK with wage levels differing based on the time of day or day of the week a person was working, with the caveat that all restaurant workers should be paid a living wage. This would solve for the vast differences in the amount of work required for, say, working weekday lunch at a restaurant in a residential neighborhood and working weekend brunch or Friday/Saturday dinner in the same restaurant, and incentivize people to work those more labor-intensive shifts, without the strong incentives for emotional labor.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Chris
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          says:

          I can get behind this.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Chris
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          says:

          I can appreciate the sentiment; but disagree with the idea of ’emotional labor’ as a disqualifier; especially since changing to a factual/data/revenue commission system is already a reduction in the ’emotional labor’ quotient. As I say, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I think it’s a misapplied criticism in this case, and beyond a certain point a misguided and undefinable objective.Report

          • InMD in reply to Marchmaine
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            says:

            I don’t know how one could pull out emotional labor from the larger context of service industry as a high stress job. Anecdotal but I worked in restaurants for years at a variety of chain joints, starting as a line cook then going up to busser, food runner, and eventually server. The crazy peak shifts were certainly exhausting. But if I had to pinpoint the real frustrating days it would be the supposedly easy lunch shifts where I had to politely handle old ladies angrily sending back the chicken Alfredo because it had noodles in it or tables of people on a dead Tuesday night splitting an app between 5 guests then drinking water for 3 hours.Report

            • Chris in reply to InMD
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              says:

              At least in the academic literature, emotional labor has a pretty specific meaning, and it is a type of labor heavily affected by the tip system (gotta smile and ignore people being an asshole to get a good tip). A good way of thinking about it less formally though is, I want American FOH workers to be able to act like Parisian FOH workers without it affecting their pay.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                Gotcha. I don’t have a particularly strong opinion about it, especially since it’s all in the rear view mirror for me.

                Thinking about the cast of characters I worked with in that phase of my life I can imagine opinions on the idea being all over the map. My recollection is that you had a lot of people like me for whom it was transitory, a lot for whom it wasn’t but treated it as a kind of hustle, a handful for whom it was a stepping stone to management and/or some other, higher status industry role, and then another chunk who seemed.. kind of lost and/or only there for lack of other options. That last group is the one that would have the most upside in theory, assuming staffing patterns didn’t change but hard to say whose attitudes are predominant. It’s also been a million years for me so no idea how it is now or how representative my experience was.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Chris
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                says:

                Maybe I’m just a weird freak but I’ve never included “did not smile” in my calculation of a tip. I suppose I might short someone who I felt was going out of their way to be a jerk, but I haven’t had that happen yet (I kind of assume that anyone who acted that way would be fired before I had a chance to encounter them.) If someone were low-affect and disengaged then I’d chalk it up to “they’re having a rough day in a tough job” and tip the same twenty percent I always do.Report

              • InMD in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                At least when I was doing it there were plenty of servers who believed eating a little sh*t with a smile was part of the job. Ability to do it well part of the skill set even that helped you make bank. I suppose where one stands on that is a matter of personal philosophy.Report

              • Chris in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                It’s good that you have that attitude. Unfortunately, as many servers will tell you, many people do not share it.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                Anyone I’ve ever known who’s worked in a restaurant is a fairly lavish tipper and really forgiving of less than good service.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                I was always surprised at how different my daughter’s attitude towards wait staff was after she had spent a semester working as one. Not just in tips, but she never forgets their name and she always has something they did worth praising.Report

              • InMD in reply to Michael Cain
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                says:

                One thing you quickly learn is that 90% of the things that regularly go wrong during service are not the wait staff’s fault, but as the face of the experience, they end up taking the brunt of the guests’ frustrating.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Marchmaine
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        says:

        Like, did you get a yearly bonus at your salaried job? If so, then you got a “tip”! (And it was reported on your taxes, natch.)Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to DensityDuck
          Ignored
          says:

          Heh, not really. Tips by definition are supposed to work outside of the baseline compensation. They should, by custom, be small… and semi-definitionally outside the taxing paradigm as a ‘gratuity’ paid in untraceable cash. Really, the next iteration should be your server’s venmo account at the bottom of the check. (But remember, Biden proposed the IRS track all ePayer accounts above $600 total revenue IIRC).

          If you are being paid in a fully traceable transaction… and/or one of the parties has to account for the expenditure as an expense and tag you in the process — the income will be flagged.

          As we’ve moved to a nearly cashless economy, (most) all tips are fully traced and therefore taxed.

          The answer really is to raise prices and compensate workers according to sales/revenue. But, whenever this model is tried (and it has been) several things happen — usually all at once — your prices are no longer competitive (they are, but the Tip ‘fees’ of competitors are hidden), you’re out-of-step culturally, so customers are confused as to what they are supposed to do, staff actually like the lottery system of tips because you get lucky more times than unlucky; and lastly a combination of everything above where your business stands alone culturally out-of-step with higher prices and indifferent staff.

          But I agree with you that there will be large perverse incentives to call more and more things ‘tips’ or even to drive business paradigms that aren’t tip based to becoming more tip based — and this is happening to everyone’s chagrin *without* tax incentives. Add tax incentives to a purely fictitious category of ‘invisible’ income? It will drive behavior in horrible directions.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine
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        says:

        “I agree in principle… there are, however, legitimate service oriented issues that tipping is supposed to address.”

        Isn’t this true in pretty much all fields? Why make it specific to food service?Report

  6. Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    I think stating they agree is a bit too much. Trump’s plan is mainly about letting hedge fund managers keep more money with a sop to servers. Harris’ plan is not. This seems like a bit of a false equivalence: https://x.com/Brendan_Duke/status/1814140258407133264

    Under the Cruz/Trump plan, fees can be characterizied as tipsReport

    • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw
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      says:

      How much income tax does the $28K hairdresser pay? Is there any current rule that allows hedge-fund managers to classify their wages as tips?Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky
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        says:

        Question from ignorance… How do payroll taxes (eg, Social Security) work for tips?Report

        • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain
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          says:

          “Poorly”?

          They’re supposed to be deducted, but they’re reliant on accurate reporting.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain
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          says:

          Speaking from my experience at the restaurant: We had a jar next to the cash register.

          Now, it was the 90’s and so more than half of our business was cash. They’d hand us a $20, we’d give them back $8.73 and they’d throw the .73 in the jar.

          This happened approximately once a minute for 90 minutes in the mornings and once a minute for 90 minutes around noon.

          It’d happen every five minutes or so the rest of the time.

          At the end of the day, we’d divvy up the cash based on who was on the shift (and add the credit card tips) and then we’d all walk out the door with cash in our pockets.

          I cannot recall if I ever declared any of this to the government.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            It’s an interesting point that since we’ve been moving cash-free, reporting is probably getting a lot better. But I’m thinking mostly of restaurants and cabs/Uber.Report

          • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            I waited tables at the end of the ’80s. When a server would settle at the end of the shift the system would report an amount for tips based on the total sales. It was always way less than what I actually pocketed.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Michael Cain
          Ignored
          says:

          Tips are both recorded electronically and declared by the individual and are taxed per usual. Basically, you walk home with the tips, but your paycheck is smaller because your tips are taxed on top of your hourly salary so your ‘paycheck’ is proportionally much smaller.

          As JB mentions, cash tips and informal tip jars are honor system… servers are supposed to declare their cash tips either daily in the server system or failing that, they are liable at the end of the year.

          In practice tips are ‘under-reported’ rather than not reported at all. That is, if you sold $1000 that night, you probably take home $250 in tips… but, let’s say $200 was cc and $50 was cash, you’d only report the $200 — and that would be basically audit proof as 20% on $1000 is undetectable.

          The caveat here is that there are thousands upon thousands of small tips based businesses that have cash-based or very rudimentary business systems. BUT, those businesses aren’t giant Casinos and those businesses weren’t paying taxes on much of the tips any way.

          This legislation specifically announced in Nevada is to eliminate Taxes on fully documented tips. I’m not 100% sure if the proposals are *only* for FED Income or if they include FICA.Report

          • InMD in reply to Marchmaine
            Ignored
            says:

            The practice when I did this was never to report $0 in cash, at least on a busy night. Lore had it that was suspicious to the IRS to report less than around 10% of sales, and IIRC managers would give you a hard time about it. So you’d report something, just way less than what you may have actually walked with in cash.Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              Right.. we always looked at sales then targeted 10% – 15%… BUT, we always had to cover the credit card tips first. That was back when it was probably 65-35 cc to cash. Now?

              Nowadays, most of the tips are credit card… and if the tips are shared, many businesses record what they tipped you out… so no discretion at all.Report

              • InMD in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                Yea, same deal, the manager would run checks at close out and the credit card tips were built in with no way to hide. My guess is now it’s probably like 95-5 credit card to cash for anything outside of adult entertainment.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Pinky
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        says:

        The current rules do better than that by the hedge fund managers. They allow them to treat their commissions on profits earned on clients’ invested capital as capital gains.Report

  7. DavidTC
    Ignored
    says:

    Hey, everyone, here’s my new political idea: We take a system in our society that is just completely broken, like, is an actual bad idea in every possible way, and, hear me out, we make it trivially better in a very specific way. Often in a way that does not actually change anything.

    And don’t think this tip thing is the end. Next, I’m proposing adding a lane to the busy highway near you! Yes, a single lane, added to that one highway! Imagine how much better that will be!Report

  8. Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    Back when I worked (in part) for tips, my boss explained that cash tips are better because no one knows squat about them so it is pretty hard to be taxed on them. If I got tipped on the credit card, it had to get processed in all sorts of ways that made it taxable.

    I may have been somewhat of a unique case… I was a delivery driver so was paid above minimum wage. It may work different for those who are paid below that on the assumption they’ll make it back in tips.Report

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