Freddie Gets Practical, As In “Practical Majors”

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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47 Responses

  1. Burt Likko says:

    Freddie’s writing eighteen years ago was what first brought me to this blog, back when it operated under its former name, with its OG cast of writers. It’s really kind of great to see Freddie’s words here still in 2023.Report

    • Liking Freddie’s writing at the end of 2015 is what made me think “ya know, maybe I could do something like that too.” Blew my mind when I found out he’d written here back in the day. I agree, always great to read him here.Report

    • North in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I came here via Sully and discovered Freddie via Sully too. Freddie has always been fire for writing and, unfortunately, sometimes also fire when thinking. But I have always found his excommunication by the social justice left rather more a telling indictment of the social justice left than of Freddie.Report

      • Chris in reply to North says:

        In fairness to everyone involved, it’s hard for someone who was never a member of a group to be excommunicated. I’ve been on the internet long enough to remember when Freddie would frequent liberal blogs, and just get pilloried, long before his internet hiatus. He’s never been popular among liberals, and it’s not clear to me why he tried so hard to talk to them. They hated him, and all he had for them was criticisms coming from a perspective they didn’t respect or even care about.

        I don’t think he’s ever been deeply involved in the actual online left, and to the extent that he’s no longer very active in his local organizing circles, that’s mostly a result of his own behavior and decisions.Report

        • North in reply to Chris says:

          Yeah I’m not connected enough with the online left to be able to judge the matter fairly.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Chris says:

          “He’s never been popular among liberals, and it’s not clear to me why he tried so hard to talk to them.”

          Because he’s a jock, and jocks consider goths to be the “F” in “F/M/K” (with “M” being Prep and “K” being Nerd)

          And besides, he was taught from a very young age that “conservative” meant “old white racist rich jerk”, and obviously he wouldn’t want to be like thatReport

      • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

        Because Freddie tends to ignore structural and systematic racism and refuses to believe that people can see white supremacy as being in their self-interest. He dreams of a class over race kind of politics which tends to lend itself to very questionable brownshirt and red alliances. He also is the kind of Dirtbag leftie that disdains Park Slope winemoms because they did better than he did after college economically and career-wise. ‘

        Also for a straight dude, he probably should not be lecturing LBGTQ people about how they are doing it wrong for wanting “bourgeois” lives instead using their LBGTQ status to revolt against bougie stuff. But he can’t help himself like so many internet writers who seem to be pathologically contrarian.Report

  2. Gonna save this for all the people who express disdain at my two youngest learning French. They keep telling me they should learn something more practical, like Japanese.

    :pReport

  3. InMD says:

    As a survivor of what people a decade ago called ‘the law school scam,’ I wholeheartedly endorse his message.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    The most practical skill, and probably the safest, is to learn how to manage and inspire people.

    Unfortunately it is as much art as skill and doesn’t lend itself to credentialing.Report

  5. Will Truman says:

    I am mostly on the other side of the debate, but Freddie makes some good points. The main thing about practicality is to be able to answer the question “What do you plan to do with your degree after college?” You don’t need a specific answer, but you do need an idea. If you don’t have something your major would be applicable towards, you should at least be able to name some career paths that don’t require a particular major (or a degree at all).

    I’ve been pretty lukewarm on “Business” as a major for a while. It’s become something of a default. A very popular major precisely among those who have no idea what they’re going to do after they graduate college. That’s often going to lead to some pretty middling outcomes as far as earning goes. A business degree isn’t much more helpful than the alternatives for whose without direction and drive at 18 or 20. (Which is not that uncommon, and not a bad thing in itself.)

    Petroleum engineering is, as he says, risky to the economic environment. But it’s also a portable degree to areas outside petroleum in particular. That’s true of a lot of science degrees. My college roommate got a degree in physics and then a job at a chemical plant (like plastics). My guess is that they’d hire petroleum engineers, too. Petro engineers still have among the incomes despite the oil market struggling in recent years.

    But, of course, a lot of people aren’t interested in petroleum engineering and most of them would be terrible at it if they tried. (Including myself). Which brings us to coding, where much of the same applies. If coding is not something that interests you, you shouldn’r pursue computer science. There’s a very good chance you will wash out, and even if you don’t you are probably not going to be good at it. And if you are good at it despite not likeing it, there is a chance you are just a really talented person who would have been better at something else.

    OTOH, I do think more people should learn to code. Way more people. Not because everyone should prepare in a career for it, or there is an endless need, but because like a lot of higher ed it teaches very useful modes of thinking. Ironically, that’s something it shares in common with the humanities.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Will Truman says:

      I have yet to see a report talk about how their are too many business majors and it is decreasing wages. The thing about the business major is that it seems so generic that it is malleable. There are lots of businesses out there and they need a lot of workers for various paper work things or other aspects. The English major may be a better writer and communicator but gets coded as a dreamer-bohemian. People think the business major is going to want a job in the corporate world and not just be there.

      Pharma is a very specific field which can be glutted.Report

  6. LeeEsq says:

    Freddie doesn’t take into account that many corporations and government agencies employ AI to get them through masses of applications and these AI is designed to weed out people with majors in the humanities even if they go to an Ivy. Ivy grads just have ways of getting jobs that don’t expose them to the algorithm that eliminates humanities majors from the job pool.Report

    • John Puccio in reply to LeeEsq says:

      The author also doesn’t take into account the astronomical cost to attend a 4 year university. It’s a real shame that young people today don’t have the opportunity to ‘figure it out’ like previous generations without putting themselves and/or parents in a bad financial position. Most families don’t have that kind of luxury.

      It’s quite natural that people should be looking at ROI, now more than ever. And that means being practical.Report

  7. Doctor Jay says:

    In typical fashion for Freddy, he takes a decent argument a step too far. The examples given don’t make practicality foolish (“For another example of the folly of practicality”), just harder than you might think.

    I’m not a guy who dumps on liberal education, by the way. But I don’t think mixing in some practicality is a bad thing, either, nor is it foolishness. Hyperbolic language and black-and-white all-or-nothing arguments are something a liberal education ought to convince you to shy away from, but it doesn’t always work that way.Report

  8. Michael Cain says:

    I do think more people should learn to code. Way more people. Not because everyone should prepare in a career for it, or there is an endless need, but because like a lot of higher ed it teaches very useful modes of thinking.

    At the end of the 1970s I somehow became a person at Bell Labs who went around and gave little talks to managers about how it was a software world, and their projects were much more likely to be late or even fail because of software problems, not hardware.

    In the second half of the aughts I became the staffer at the Colorado General Assembly who went to post-mortems for the state governments software failures and then had to try to explain to legislators why they failed. (Or in one case at the Secretary of State’s office, succeeded spectacularly. But with the caveat that the reasons couldn’t be replicated for most of the state’s software systems.)

    At some point, software is going to screw up each of our lives to some degree. Almost everyone ought to be familiar with some of the basic concepts. Although I’d probably emphasize data at least as much as code.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Michael Cain says:

        You went to all that effort to set yourself up to blame WordPress, and then you just threw it away.Report

        • Can’t blame anyone but me. I regularly make the threading mistake when I’m responding to the most recent top-level comment. The reply box is immediately below it and I fail to notice the more subtle indicators.

          I do regularly bitch about WordPress, here and elsewhere. They have managed to recreate most of the worst things about the late 1990s Windows software platform.Report

    • I don’t know whether it’s a legitimate worry or whether it’s an “old man shaking fist at clouds” thing, but I really worry about young people not understanding file structures (hierarchy, etc) at all. The cloud and syncing would, I think, increase rather than decrease the ability to navigate systems where a file isn’t showing up where you think it ought to be.

      But the world keeps spinning, so what do I know?Report

      • Philip H in reply to Will Truman says:

        My climate modeling colleagues in federal labs have a similar worry – many of the global climate models were originally written in Fortan and eventually recoded in C or maybe C++. To keep them running, and ingest new code and new parameters, takes a small army of parallel programmers – who are in short supply as it is, and more then happy to work for Goggle at Google pay scales. Thus the arcane structure and taxonomy of Fortan may well bring climate prediction down one day . . . . not bad data or politics.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Will Truman says:

        “I really worry about young people not understanding file structures (hierarchy, etc) at all.”

        Many workplaces are moving to systems that are basically Google Docs with a proprietary spin (such as Confluence) to deal with this issue.Report

        • I’m thinking on a different scale. One of the examples I used at the General Assembly was the public assistance intake system’s access permissions subsystem. 20,000 or so state, county, and some private workers, each of whom could have access to only a subset of the client data. Every time one of those people left/transferred/was promoted/etc, their permissions had to be updated. Sometimes temporarily, eg, Sue the supervisor is taking two weeks of vacation and John will be covering, so John needs added supervisor permissions for two weeks. Or, if the federal Department of Agriculture changes some security rule for nutrition assistance, we may have to create new categories.

          My life would have been easier if the various committee members had some understanding that they could change a rule in the statute in a few days. But if that required changing code, then that change had to be prioritized versus all of the other pending changes, scheduled, test cases put into the regression testing. So please, put the effective date on the new statute a year out. They hated when I agreed with the executive branch that a year out was reasonable.

          I don’t care if the members understand the details of the laptop computer the state provides them. I want them to understand some of the basics of the kind of software systems that run the state government. Which we all bang up against almost daily, even if indirectly.Report

  9. Jaybird says:

    An excellent essay.

    The eternal problem with “going to college to explore who I am for 4-5 years” is the sheer number of kids who go to college and, instead, learn how to drink alcohol to excess, learn how to properly use a bong, and probably some sex stuff too. Maybe. Other kids did, anyway.

    I’m sure that *SOME* kids explore who they are but I didn’t meet any of them. I was too busy hanging with the drunks and stoners and working evenings.

    And if *THAT* is who you are, maybe getting a degree in something practical is your best bet.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

      Whilst at a dear friend’s last night, eating supper and watching WWE RAW, the topic of AI came up.

      Their 14 year-old son showed us how he can make ChatGPT write 800 words on The Underground Railroad.

      I don’t know what a “practical” major will be in 10 years. I mostly think back on my Home Ec teacher in 10th Grade telling us that they stopped teaching shorthand at the school a few years back (and she was the one who taught it).

      We begged her to give us a 2-minute lesson in shorthand and she sighed and gave us a couple of the greatest hits from the shorthand alphabet and then shook her head as if waking from a dream and we got back to Home Ec.

      Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        “Their 14 year-old son showed us how he can make ChatGPT write 800 words on The Underground Railroad.”

        On the one hand, did those 800 words cite many sources and examples to back up its assertions, and were those citations posed uniquely in the text or were they just copy-pastes of other people’s work?

        On the other hand, how many student essays that were the result of a great deal of hard work and research and long nights spent battering a keyboard were, in the final analysis, indistinguishable from copy-pastes of other people’s work?

        Someone on Twitter posted a story showing that the use of AI-assisted writing was associated with a reduction in the effects of historical inequality among writing-class students (that is, the grade difference between students from disadvantaged backgrounds and those from non-disadvantaged backgrounds mostly went away.) And this is because it’s the difference between being told to build a toy house and being handed a bucket of Lego bricks, and being told to build a toy house and being handed a 2×4 and a saw. Obviously someone with carpentry skill is going to do better in the latter situation, but that has nothing to do with house-building.Report

        • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

          Chat GPT will eventually be an excellent writing tool for source citation writing assignments, such as we see in science now. At the moment we can get it to give us good copy on well known science topics, but it’s not really able to properly cite sources yet – though some of the citations it tries to create are amusing.

          Like any technology, we can teach ourselves to use it to do good work, or we can teach ourselves to be lazy in how we apply it.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

          Oh, I didn’t read the essay. I just glanced at the monitor of the family computer from across the room. As far as I can tell from a glance, it was just paragraphs of content. There wasn’t a section devoted to sources.

          Bing’s ai? At the bottom, it gave:
          Learn more:
          1. theodysseyonline.com
          2. time.com
          3. vox.com
          4. hrdailyadvisor.blr.com

          And you could click on any of those and see whence it plagiarized.

          I’m not surprised that AI-assisted writing reduces surface-level inequality. It writes clean copy.

          I suppose we could say “there’s a difference between the people who can write more-or-less clean copy at will and someone who can’t!” but then I remember when teachers would say “you’re not always going to have a scientific calculator in your pocket”.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

            and that’s just it, that a lot of people are going to learn very quickly how much they assumed that “clean copy” meant “good writer” meant “smart person”…Report

            • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

              Yeah, but those who assumed “relatively clean copy, all things considered” meant “proficient” meant “literate” are going to find out that they were somewhat closer to right than wrong.

              Our tests to measure proficiency are woefully insufficient.

              But that doesn’t mean that we’re going to stop needing proficient people.

              Having the AI write your emails will be all well and good so long as we create people capable of reading the emails afterwards and saying “tweak this part, expand on that part, and change the answer in paragraph 3 from ‘sure’ to ‘no, that’s not possible’.”

              If we’re just creating copy-pasters, we’re going to find ourselves wishing we had people capable of looking at a scientific calculator and saying “that can’t be right”, even though everybody has a scientific calculator in their pocket now.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

        Heh, Turing Test outcome that would ‘alarm’ me is when the prompt returns: It isn’t.Report

    • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

      …going to college to explore who I am for 4-5 years…

      It probably sounds odd, but I spent six years in college discovering that I am an applied mathematician. Not a theoretical mathematician, nor a true academic, nor a real engineer or real programmer, but a masters degree level applied mathematician.

      (Plus beer and young women because all work and no play makes Mike a dull boy. No interest in drugs since I was 16 and spent three days on some opiod or another while I had plurisy. It still hurt like hell to breath, but I just didn’t care. No more of that, thank you.)Report

  10. DensityDuck says:

    People read about so-and-so the Rich Industrialist who has a college degree, such-and-such the Famous Intellectual who has a college degree, that-guy whose parents were a gardener and a secretary but he’s got a college degree and a million in the bank and a mansion in Monterey.

    They think “oh, the college degree, that’s part of all those things, therefore we should make sure everyone gets a college degree, that way they’ll get those things”.

    And…the Rich Industrialist got into the right corporate hierarchy, worked through successful projects, created a reputation for having been around when things worked, and spun that into being a bigshot. The Famous Intellectual had family money so he had plenty of time to kick back and think Big Thoughts about Stuff. The guy from humble beginnings got in with the right startup and his stock options exploded.

    And you’re thinking “oh, he’s gonna say the college degree didn’t matter,” and actually, I’m not gonna say that. It absolutely mattered. The Rich Industrialist’s college degree came from a place where he got a co-op job at ConHugeCo, where he got hired after graduation because they already knew him. The Famous Intellectual’s college degree put him in touch with the gallery owners and small publishers and band members (and, um, “inspiring personal relationships”) that helped him create his work and get it seen by the wider world. And the guy from humble beginnings made friends while getting his degree, and they all got together after graduation and turned their idea into something that Google wanted to buy.

    And all those people who say “we should make sure everyone gets a college degree” are right, but what they don’t know is that they aren’t talking about education when they say it.Report

  11. Marchmaine says:

    My Contrarian take is that this is mostly a problem with ‘Majors’ and runs contrary to Higher Education as Majors have hopelessly fragmented into what I’d call ‘Micros’

    Which is why you can’t ramp-up and pick the ‘hot’ micro over the 10/20-year horizon that it take to ramp-up the micros.

    A better way for Universities to become true Universities is to break the Major/Micro paradigm and just return to Schools or Colleges of different general flavors/aptitudes. Sure, we can then argue which and how many Schools we should have, but the best thing for both Students and Universities is to break the Majors as a category. It would certainly re-do what is provided in the purely ‘Arts & Letters’ degree by adding Math/Science/Computers into the Core in Arts & Letters appropriate ways, but so too will it alter the flavor of Engineering and the ‘hard’ Sciences. The goal ought to be foundational grounding in fields of study not job training.

    For what it’s worth, I’ve discussed this over the years with some friends who run (tiny) Colleges and there’s a pretty big resistance from the Arts & Letters side by the professors who aren’t comfortable with anything that smacks of ‘practicality’ or ‘technology’ and that’s an interesting artifact of why *they* became professors in Arts & Letters and not necessarily something we should care about from an institutional/pedagogical perspective. BUT, from a pure execution perspective, you are who you employ… so.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Marchmaine says:

      At the very least, if you want to major in something “impractical”, minor in one of the more applied disciplines. I’ve always held, however, that one would be better served by doing an apprenticeship if you wanted to go into something involving the latter, like say accounting.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

        Right, though I’d banish ‘Minors’ as a concept as well. The idea is that the University education is generally applicable across many future endeavors… Accounting, by definition, is a vocation that requires specified training and should be achievable by many (not all) folks whether their baseline education was Arts & Letters, Science, Engineering, etc. etc.

        Post-secondary *and* post University Vocational education could/should be a thing – in partnership with business/employers.

        I think the knock-down-drag-out-fights would be whether Pre-Med / Business / Pre-Law (to name just a few) are colleges or something that’s included in Core – and where and which Cores?Report

  12. John Puccio says:

    There is a big difference in studying to become a pharmacist (a niche profession) and majoring in computer science, which will allow you to find opportunity in every industry, everywhere.Report

  13. Saul Degraw says:

    The United States has never been able to come to a consensus on what is the point and purpose of education. Is it to gain practical skills that will help people earn incomes and get jobs? Is it to develop knowledge in an academic field? Be a well rounded person who can participate in the democratic polis? A combination of the three?

    I agree with Freddie to a point that something can be a practical major until it isn’t but we also both come from backgrounds that believed the point and purpose of education is the development of knowledge in an academic field. I think this is now firmly a minority view.

    I grew up with professional, educated parents and most of the people I know in life also had parents in educated professions.

    As far as I can tell, at least when I was growing up, there were two modes of parenting advice to the kids who were 99.99 percent certain to attend and graduate university and probably beyond:

    Type A: “You are smart and creative and kind. You should study something that interests you and it will work out and you will find your way.”

    Type B: “Do you see this nice house? Do you know the nice vacation we went on? Do you know your nice summer camp? These things are not cheap. You have to work hard, study something practical, and get a good job to afford these things.”

    Type A is largely dead as far as I can tell and if it is not dead, it often seems now confined to well-to-do bougie-boho (who are often but not always white) progressives in and around places like Brooklyn, The Hudson Valley, Portland, Seattle, the Bay Area, etc.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Type A makes a lot of sense when college costs $X and you graduate with little debt.

      When college costs $4X, it only makes sense if you can still graduate with little debt. Those who can pull that are pretty much confined to well-to-do bougie-boho (who are often but not always white) progressives in and around places like Brooklyn, The Hudson Valley, Portland, Seattle, the Bay Area, etc.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird says:

        Type A also works if you go to a very elite university like Harvard or Yale and go use networking to get you a plumb position. You get around the HR software designed to keep out humanities students that way.Report

    • Leslie Davis in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      “You should study something that interests you” — this is a classic trap for Undecided Majors entering college. There are entire majors that prey on freshmen. “We’re cool! This is interesting!” — or, even worse, this is easy!Report