You Can Ignore Anti-Vaccine Arguments

Eric Medlin

History instructor. Writer. Rising star in the world of affordable housing.

Related Post Roulette

37 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    My current favorite of the vax hesitant are those doing the “My Body, My Choice” chant, and lamenting the fact that they are now un-employed because of that choice. I see this a lot in the context of health care workers, but it pops up in other professions as well.

    Behold the field in which I grow my fvcks, and see that it is barren.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    The CDC should be approving the Moderna booster later this week!

    Or next week!

    Well, just for people over 65 or with a qualifying underlying medical condition (and “fat” counts).

    Is being against boosters “anti-vaccine”?Report

  3. Pinky says:

    I’m happy to see the decline noted in the first paragraph. I’m cautious though. The summer’s outbreaks were in the southern states, which saw the worst outbreaks last summer. The worst of last winter’s outbreaks were in the northern states. I hope the vaccines will cut the number and severity of cases, but we’re probably four months away from knowing.Report

    • North in reply to Pinky says:

      Yup. COVID really likes the indoors.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to North says:

        We’ll see. Certain northern states also saw a spike over the summer, likely fueled by Delta. Other states (like NJ) saw more of a bump, likely a combination of Delta’s surge balanced against high vaccination rates. Kids up this way have been in school, indoors (with masks) and I haven’t heard any reports of major outbreaks or spread occurring there. Layer in the likely approval of a 5-11 vaccine in the coming weeks and we may really be putting the worst of this behind us… at least in areas with high vaccination rates.

        Time will tell. So much of this remains novel that it is hard to identify any real patterns.Report

  4. John Puccio says:

    Why does someone who has been naturally infected by Covid be required to take the vaccine when they are already better protected than uninfected, fully vaccinated people?

    If vaccinated people can spread Covid as easily as unvaccinated people, why would vaccinated people care if others are unvaccinated?

    If firing police, firefighters, healthcare workers, military who refuse to get vaccinated creates a greater public safety environment for the rest of us, are these mandates really worth it?

    Are these the types of bad faith arguments that should be ignored?

    It seems to me the pro-mandate crowd is already ignoring those arguments.Report

    • Swami in reply to John Puccio says:

      1. “Why does someone who has been naturally infected by Covid be required to take the vaccine…”

      Agreed. There should be an exemption for anyone who can prove they were infected. Can antibodies prove this?

      2. “If vaccinated people can spread Covid as easily as unvaccinated people, why would vaccinated people care if others are unvaccinated?”

      Agreed if true. But is it true? Is a vaccinated person as likely to spread the disease as the typical unvaccinated?

      3. “If firing police, firefighters, healthcare workers, military who refuse to get vaccinated creates a greater public safety environment for the rest of us, are these mandates really worth it?”

      Not really. OTOH, the threat of firing may do most of the work. Longer term, it can be a condition for hiring.

      4. “Are these the types of bad faith arguments that should be ignored?”

      These all seem like reasonable issues to work through. I am glad you brought them up.Report

      • Susara Blommetie in reply to Swami says:

        I usually lurk here but ok I’ll go for the bait. Because seriously I can’t believe we’re still debating this.

        But ok, here goes.

        1) Because
        vaccinated protection + natural protection > natural protection
        in terms of
        a) smaller chances of getting infected (or re-infected)
        b) smaller chances of falling seriously ill should you get infected (or re-infected)
        c) smaller chances of infecting others should you get infected (or re-infected).

        Let’s look at South Africa’s hospitalization rates during our three covid waves with practically no vaccination. Let’s compare that to Israel’s hospitalization rates when Delta hit them after mass vaccination. And then let’s draw some conclusions comparing natural vs vaccinated protection against severe illness.

        2) Firstly’ we know that vaccinated people spread covid at a much lower rate than unvaccinated people. It’s a well-known fact, and it has been a well-known fact for quite a while.

        But even had it been true that the unvaccinated infects as easily as the vaccinated (which – note – it isn’t) we also know that unvaccinated people get infected more easily and fall much more seriously ill. Then they go to hospital. Where they fill up beds that can’t be used by burn patients, by cancer patients, by trauma patients. Where they make the lives of medical staff absolute hell by requiring constant onerous PPE protocols if these doctors want to keep themselves and their families safe.

        3) Agree this one is certainly a valid point. But also keep in mind ‘if medical staff leave the profession en masse because they can’t endure the strain of putting themselves at risk by caring for people that are dying of a preventable disease would it have been worth it?’

        4) And this is where we get to the point. It is getting very very difficult for me to imagine that 1 \& 2 are good faith arguments in October 2021. In Jan 2021 they may have been, but not by October 2021. And if 1 & 2 crumble then I don’t care much for 3.

        I am just beyond this. A year ago, even 8 months ago, perhaps you could still argue some of these points. But not any more. The data is in. It is clear. And you know it.

        Are these arguments made in good faith?

        Which is I think the point of the original article. And here I went and engaged.Report

        • I might as well toss in my #1 complaint about “claiming to have been sick is as good as being vaccinated”: every vaccinated person is recorded in the public health records. When they were vaccinated, which vaccine, which batch of that vaccine. No one is keeping track of antibody tests in a way that allows a claim to be verified.Report

          • Swami in reply to Michael Cain says:

            I guess the question is whether it could be done. I have no idea, and I doubt it would appease the antivaccers. But if it is possible and if they don’t spread the disease as efficiently as those who have not been infected, then it might be worth conceding.Report

            • PD Shaw in reply to Swami says:

              Yes, it could be done, but there is not an accepted level of antibody measurement that corresponds to protection from disease (or whatever endpoint is desired). The concept is correlates of protection. Once a correlation is set, then individual immunity protection can be assessed, vaccine refreshment can be determined (like it is for the flu vaccine), and new vaccinations can be evaluated with smaller groups. The concept exists; it’s not ready yet.Report

        • “I can’t believe we’re still debating this” is a bad faith response to some legitimate questions. Perhaps if public health leaders did a better job of being open and honest and engaged people on issues like natural immunity, they wouldn’t be compelling citizens to obey or else. One size fits all – get it or lose your livelihood. Doesn’t matter if you are at risk or not for disease that has 99+% survival rate for anyone under the age of 70. You are mandated to get a shot that actually doesn’t prevent you from getting infected or spreading the virus anyway. It’s enough to go full authoritarian because by getting the shot you are slightly less likely to spread it?

          yes, we do know that vaccinated people are more likely to become ill. An actual fact. But let’s be real, burn patients are not being turned away. We are nowhere near the hospital occupancy rates of last year. If we are concerned staffing levels are dropping, perhaps we should stop firing healthcare workers because they don’t want to get the jab.

          I am pro vaccine. I am vaccinated. I strongly believe people over 50 or anyone with health issues should get the shot. But I am also pro choice and allowing people to make their own health calculations on if they want to get the shot or not.

          This isn’t the bubonic plague. Let’s stop acting like it is.Report

          • Susara Blommetjie in reply to John Puccio says:

            I uttered “I can’t believe we’re still debating this” in exasperation. And then continued by providing good faith responses to each of the points.

            Burn patients may not be turned away right now, but they were turned away during previous peaks. And they will be turned away again when the next wave its – if enough people aren’t vaccinated.

            Because without large scale vaccination it is ‘when’ the next wave hits, and not ‘if’.

            When I check the hospitalisation rates for a country with low vaccination but high accumulated infection rates (in some ares it’s speculated to be close to 70% by now) – https://covid-19dashboard.news24.com/ – I do not see previous infection playing any role in dampening the waves.

            Covid also has a much worse survival rate than 99%. Not only is the death rate much higher, it would be even higher still if people don’t have access to treatment because hospitals are at capacity. Anycase just looking at survival rates is not good enough. My aunt miraculously survived covid. She will be on an oxygen machine for the rest of her life. Good thing she had the money to pay for one, otherwise she probably would have died a month or two after ‘recovering’ from covid and be part of the survival rates stats.

            And again – even were the 99% stats be true – the strain on the health care system has a tremendous knock-on effect that causes excess non-covid deaths. But this is also a well-known fact that has been put out there for ages.

            I feel very serious about bodily integrity, and would not support mandatory vaccination. But in a country with at-will employment people get fired daily for acts much less irresponsible that putting the health of their co-workers, patients, clients and entire medical system at risk.Report

        • Swami in reply to Susara Blommetie says:

          Susara,

          So there have been studies that prove that those with vaccines and prior infection spread the disease less than those only with prior infection? Are you sure?

          Are there even studies that show that those with vaccines are less likely to spread it than those without? I know those without vaccination are magnitudes more likely to get sick. But are they proven more likely to spread?

          Your South Africa anecdote doesn’t prove the above point, as it just clarifies that vaccines reduce the number who get sick. But that isn’t being disputed, as spreaders and sickies may be distinct groups.Report

          • Susara Blommetjie in reply to Swami says:

            Only people that fall sick can spread covid. So if those without vaccination are magnitudes more likely to get sick, it follows that those without vaccination will spread covid more easily by the same order of magnitude.

            In addition, we’ve agreed that when the vaccinated do get infected, they get less sick than the unvaccinated. It is also well known that the more sick you are, the more people you infect (because you cough, and sneeze, and snot all over, etc) – so it follows logically that when two people, one vaxxed and one unvaxxed, get covid chances are the vaxxed will infect fewer people.

            What I’m trying to show with the South African data is that wide spread infection with the original strain provided society with virtually no protection against the Beta version of the virus, and wide spread infection of both the original and Beta didn’t help much for Delta.

            So how many more of these experiments do we want to run? How many more such waves should we we coping with?

            Do we want to wait until it mutates and starts killing our children the way it kills our parents before we start to sit up straight and just spend the 2 hours of our time and suffer a sore arm to get a free shot that saves us all this pain?Report

      • veronica d in reply to Swami says:

        Another empirical question regarding point #1: Does infection by Covid strain X provide immunity to Covid strain Y?

        Just as vaccine boosters might be needed as Covid evolves, a person’s natural immunity from an older, weaker strain might not be sufficient long term. We can adapt the vaccines (and boosters) for newer strains. By contrast, someone who has “already been infected” would have to get infected again. That seems less than ideal.

        Anyway, I have no idea. It’s empirical.Report

        • Silent Sam in reply to veronica d says:

          “We can adapt the vaccines for newer strains” — sure, if profit wasn’t involved. We’ve had Delta out since before the vaccines were available, and according to one of those nice Pharma CEOs on Fox, it takes them three months to create a newly targeted vaccine.

          So, why have we been distributing, worldwide, a vaccine that isn’t well targeted for Delta? (Remember the 95% effectivity? That drops to at maximum 50% for Delta).Report

        • We can adapt the vaccines (and boosters) for newer strains.

          Eventually, after possibly significant delays. Pfizer and Moderna can’t just stick any old mRNA into the vaccine — they’ll need trials and approval. The FDA also tends to frown on producing similar vaccines in the same facility because of the increased chances of errors happening. IIRC, the flu vaccine companies completely stop production and clean house, then restart with the next year’s formulation in order to avoid that problem. No one wants to have, say, Moderna stop production for six weeks to clean out their supply chain and then restart. J&J did no one any favors when they had exactly that kind of cross-product problem back in March or April.

          I suspect a lot of decision makers were greatly relieved when it became clear that a booster of the same vaccine provided a lot more protection against the delta strain, so that they didn’t have to decide how to go through the process of adjusting the formula.Report

        • Swami in reply to veronica d says:

          Yeah, good point Veronica. I do still admit ignorance on whether a person who got COVID early on is more or less likely to spread the disease than someone who has been vaccinated.

          I too am very pro vaccine, and have little patience with the antivaccers. Whole thing seems odd to me. Just get the dang vaccine.

          But, I could certainly see changing it to a requirement for a vaccine or proof of antibodies, if such a thing is possible and empirically efficient.Report

        • Susara Blommetjie in reply to veronica d says:

          Infection by one strain provides only partial protection to another. One can see that from the aggregated data, as well as from medical aid claims for the treatment of repeat infections by different strains.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to John Puccio says:

      As I mentioned in a previous post, natural immunity is not necessarily superior to vaccination. Viruses and bacteria are covered in proteins (different proteins do different things). Your immune system has examine an invader and pick a target protein to develop an antibody (which is simply a protein designed to latch on to an invader to hopefully disrupt it, and also to flag it for removal). Your immune system doesn’t always pick a good target protein. If it’s a protein that can mutate rapidly without impacting the ability to be infectious, then your immune system is starting out from square 1 (or maybe 2) if it gets a variant.

      This is why the flu is such a PITA.

      The spike protein the vaccine developers choose was not done it random. IIRC, it was chosen because A) it was a key part of the viruses ability to be infectious, and B) if it mutates too much, it will no longer be infectious to us. So being vaccinated means your immune system is primed to produce one of the best possible antibodies, one that not only has a stable target, but a target that renders the virus inert.

      Also: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/Report

      • The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.

        https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vitalReport

        • Burt Likko in reply to John Puccio says:

          I see you’ve got an article from a preprint (that is, not yet peer-reviewed) study offering support for the idea that “natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection” than the vaccines, and which also notes that “Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.” Gazit, Shlezinger, et al., Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections, medRxiv 2021.08.24.21262415 (https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415).

          While this conclusion does suggest a result partially contradictary to some of the studies I cited below in my direct response to your initial question, it a) has not yet been peer-reviewed, and b) nevertheless indicates that natural immunity and vaccination is preferable to natural immunity alone.Report

          • John Puccio in reply to Burt Likko says:

            Thanks for all of your thoughtful responses – here and below.

            There doesn’t seem to be very many peer reviewed studies at this point in time. But considering it is an open question as to natural immunity vs vaccination, and considering that the actual reinfection rate of covid 19 is minuscule – why would the state mandate a vaccination on the previously infected population? Conceding that vax+infected is “better” than just previously infected, do you really believe that marginal improvement warrants compulsion? At best, this seems like poor public health policy. At worst, a total abuse of power.Report

            • Burt Likko in reply to John Puccio says:

              As discussed above, it’s unclear how much better vax+natural is than either alone; that is going to be a difficult thing to quantify because the study generally based its results on the prevalence of antibodies in the survey subjects’ blood after re-exposure.

              But they did determine that there is some benefit that is measurable, meaning that there was a statistically significant improvement in re-exposure outcomes. It’s also incorrect to say that the benefit is “miniscule,” as you say; the study identifies the improvement as “statistically significant.”

              And, I’ve cited you to a peer-reviewed study indicating that roughly three out of eight people who have recovered from COVID develop no antibodies whatsoever. Consider what that means on a practical level. People don’t generally know “I have antibodies in my blood.” What they know is “I had COVID and I got better.” Some of these folks are walking around acting like that means the vaccine is superfluous for them. Even the study you point to says that is incorrect — mRNA vaccine still makes their immune systems produce better outcomes in the event of re-exposure.

              So I disagree that it’s poor policy to mandate vaccines for those claiming natural immunity. Three out of eight people who claim it are factually incorrect to do so. And, there is no dispute that even the other five would still benefit in a statistically significant way from vaccination — based on nothing more than the very study you cite.

              Which leads to my disagreement with your normative assessment. Doing what it takes to get as many people vaccinated as possible is not a “total abuse of power,” it’s good public health policy. It’s a shame so many people have needed mandates to prod them to get onboard with plan A, because let’s face it, there is no plan B, which means plan A has to work. Nevertheless, mandates do seem to be pushing us closer to that public policy goal, albeit with some of our neighbors kicking and screaming about it all the way.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Burt Likko says:

                It’s my understanding that antibodies do not have to be present in the previously infected to prevent reinfection. That the memory cells created by the virus will produce antibodies when/if that person is exposed again. Further, what I referred to as minuscule was the percentage of people who have actually contracted covid twice. It’s far more rare than breakthrough infections of the never infected vaxxed.

                We clearly have very different views as to what constitutes *good* public health policy in Oct 2021 and what justifies authoritarian measures to try and manage this virus after 20 months of mass exposure in the U.S. Your Plan A has us at almost 70% vax rate in the country. Mandates will get us to 75, maybe 80%? I don’t think that is very much different than Plan B – which is we just let the virus run its course while providing boosters and protections to the most vulnerable while continuing to develop promising therapeutics that treat the sick.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to John Puccio says:

                IIRC, the ABs you make will fall below detectible levels within 3-6 months after you feel better. So if you got sick, in less than half a year, there will be no evidence in a lab test to prove you are immune. But a shot record is a record. So again, how do you prove you are immune, if you don’t have conclusive proof you had COVID with tests showing high AB loads?

                If the sick could weather the disease at home like the flu, we could just let it run it’s course while vaccinating the most vulnerable. But not everyone can, and being young and healthy is not a statistically significant protection against a severe case requiring hospitalization. Hospitals running out of beds is a thing because people have been refusing to get vaccinated and then getting sick.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to John Puccio says:

          Even if that study holds up (and a lot of studies like that are retracted or edited, so I really wish Science Journalists would wait to report on pre-prints, because an edit or retraction rarely gets reported on unless it’s scandalous), you still have the problem of finding a clear way to prove that A) a person had COVID-19, and B) that the infection caused a sufficient immune response to obviate the need for a vaccine dose.

          So, you are making the claim that prior infection is at least as good as a vaccine, you should be able to prove that and come up with a solid way to verify both the prior infection and a high enough AB presence to make the case. TTBOMK, figuring out the quality of a natural immunity is a lot more difficult than assessing the quality of the vaccine AB response.Report

      • Silent Sam in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        Delta is 4 simple mutations away from complete vaccine immunity (that’s two days in a competent lab), on the spike protein. Targetting the spike protein was a mistake.

        Moderna’s own research showed that putting more than just the spike protein in the vaccine made a significantly better immune response. They chose not to go with the most effective version in humans. You’ll have to ask them why, I don’t know.

        Influenza mutates far less than coronaviruses do.

        One study had the vaccinated as carrying 250 times the viral load of the unvaccinated (I’ve read the study, and understand how they arrived at that number, and why it’s an incomplete picture). Dr. Malone says that the vaccinated carry about double the viral load, and that’s what the meta-analysis would tell you. This is why the CDC mandates that the vaccinated should continue to wear masks.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Silent Sam says:

          Links or you are merely talking out of your a$$.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            This is a great example:
            Notice all the sciency jargon being used: “Spike protein”, viral load”, “meta analysis”.

            Where did this person learn those terms? Well, some article or book where the basics of viruses and vaccine theory was discussed.

            OK, so those sources must have been trustworthy right? I mean, if we are using the terms they describe they must have been accurate and legitimate.

            But…those very same sources also support the consensus view held by the majority of epidemiologists. The consensus which is being attacked.

            If they didn’t, then the comment would be something like “Dr. Fauci is presenting a theory which is not supported by this textbook or that scholarly article”.

            But no anti-vaxxer/ creationist ever says that.

            Its always “The experts are all wrong! Here, let me present a long diatribe using words and concepts I learned from those very same experts! And you can trust me, because I am an expert!”Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            Just for the record (because Sam apparently tripped the troll alarm), they did provide a link, to a news article talking about a pre-pub study that examined 4 possible mutations the virus could take. All 4 would have to happen, and be considered as having a high probability of happening. All 4 would also have to beat our immune system and its habit of running AB mutations on its own, like a natural DOE/Design Study, looking for potential mutations.
            https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/your-immune-system-evolves-to-fight-coronavirus-variants/Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to John Puccio says:

      Why does someone who has been naturally infected by Covid be required to take the vaccine when they are already better protected than uninfected, fully vaccinated people?

      Because mRNA vaccines more reliably elicit production of antibodies than natural exposure. mRNA vaccinations produce antibodies in nearly every vaccinated person; however, more than one-third (36%) of people who have only “natural exposure” actualy develop antibodies. Consequently, unvaccinated COVID recoverees suffer reinfection at a rate of 2.34 times the rate of vaccinated recoverees (the so-called “breakthrough cases”). Cavanaugh, Spicer, et al.: Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021. MMWR Morb. Mortal. Wkly. Rep. 2021;70:1081-1083 (reinfection rate of recovered COVID patients who remained unvaccinated was 2.34 times the rate of vaccinated recoverees) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34383732/); see also Liu, Russell, et al., (2021). Predictors of Nonseroconversion after SARS-CoV-2 Infection. Emerging Infectious Diseases, 27(9), 2454-2458 (36% of patients testing positive for COVID subsequently did not develop antibodies) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8386781/). So “natural immunity” is not as reliable or as effective, and even if you’ve had COVID and recovered, you should still get the vaccine. It is very unlikely to cause you harm and there’s a good chance it’ll do you some good.

      If vaccinated people can spread Covid as easily as unvaccinated people, why would vaccinated people care if others are unvaccinated?

      It’s not true that vaccinated people can spread COVID as easily as unvaccinated people. Vaccinated people are less likely to be communication vectors, and even if they are, they are not going to be as strong a vector nor will they be vectors for as long, whether the vector be in the form of viral shedding or breath transmission. Chia, Ong, et al.,: Virological and serological kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant vaccine-breakthrough infections: a multi-center cohort study, medRxiv 2021.07.28.21261295 (https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295) and Pritchard, Matthews, et al., Impact of vaccination on new SARS-CoV-2 infections in the United Kingdom. Nat Med 27, 1370–1378 (2021) (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41591-021-01410-w). Admittedly, the Signaporean study hints that the decline in communicability rates recede faster than the immunological response, in a way that the UK study does not, so no, not all the answers are known here yet and this is a very difficult phenomenon to quantify, but it is known that vaccination does reduce communicability to a palpable degree.

      If firing police, firefighters, healthcare workers, military who refuse to get vaccinated creates a greater public safety environment for the rest of us, are these mandates really worth it?

      This turns out to be something of a moot point. Taking, for instance, the state of Washington as an example, we find that the City of Seattle’s police force had 1,325 police officers, and fifteen (15) resigned rather than be fired for failing to comply with the City’s vaccine mandate. Similarly, Seattle’s fire department had 932 firefighters, and the mandate cost them five (5) of those firefighters. (https://twitter.com/caadium/status/1451219039397629960). The Washington State Police, who handle among other duties highway safety and speeding patrol, had over 2,000 employees and took a relatively bigger hit with 53 civil servants, 67 troopers, six sergeants, and one captain quitting rather than complying with the mandate; no impact on WSP activity is anticpated (https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/127-employees-leave-washington-state-patrol-due-vaccine-mandate/6EEAFN3MLJEKBKADVQCOQ6PONQ/). There’s no reason I can think of to suspect that Washington’s experiences with mandates are particularly unusual. Most people will comply with a vaccine mandate rather than quit or be fired, and it’s hard to imagine that these highly-coveted and temporarily vacant jobs will not be unusually difficult for the various forces to fill.

      Are these the types of bad faith arguments that should be ignored?
      It seems to me the pro-mandate crowd is already ignoring those arguments.

      That may be true elsewhere, but this is Ordinary Times. You’ve just received substantive responses, with citations to actual scientific studies, responsive to those arguments. And contrary to the argument made in the OP, I think that’s a better way to respond to anti-vax arguments: by listening to questions to see if they are valid, like these are, and responding to those valid questions with science. My response to statements like “I heard that taking the vaccine alters a person’s DNA!” or “I don’t want to inject microchips into my blood!” might not be quite as sober. But if you’re asking a sober, reasonable question (and these are sober, reasonable questions) I think taking you seriously and responding seriously, as I’ve attempted to do here, is the way to go.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Burt Likko says:

        reinfection rate of recovered COVID patients who remained unvaccinated was 2.34 times the rate of vaccinated recoverees

        Note that this is comparing infection + vaccination to infection only, not infection-only to vaccination-only.

        This does suggest that there’s a benefit to getting vaccinated even after getting infected, but it doesn’t address the question of whether infection-acquired immunity is as good as or better than vaccine(only)-acquired immunity. I believe that the available evidence suggests that it is, but don’t have a strong opinion on the issue.Report

      • Swami in reply to Burt Likko says:

        Burt,

        Thanks for the links, but they seem to prove vaccines work for the vaccinated. Do they actually prove that those with a vaccine act less as a vector though for spreading the disease? This still seems to be an open question.

        I have always assumed people who don’t get sick or who don’t get as sick are less likely to spread it. But this is an assumption. Are there studies proving this?Report

  5. Chip Daniels says:

    This is why we can’t just ignore the anti-vaxxers and hope they go away.

    They insist on sea lioning every venue they can, and this includes city council hearings where mandates are decided.

    But we also can’t pretend we are dealing with rational arguments either; This is Creationism on steroids, where no matter what evidence is presented, some new study, some new source, some new “just asking questions” argument is trotted out.

    Notice how the trusted sources are entirely arbitrary- this scientist can’t be trusted, but this one over here can! This statement of fact is contradicted by news media? Well, here is another news outlets contradicting that one!

    Complete falsehoods are confidently asserted, yet even when dispelled, more take their place without pausing for a breath.

    What’s under attack in America right now is the very notion of a shared reality where Trump lost the election and Biden took office, where there is a pandemic which can be fought with vaccines and masks.Report