Mini-Throughput: Why “Natural Immunity” Isn’t All That Hot
I’ve been toying with a post on this for a while but Kurzgesagt recently did a video that perfectly encapsulates an important part of our ongoing debate about vaccines:
Our immune system is extraordinarily powerful. However, it has a tendency to be indiscriminate in how it deploys that power, at least at first. Its initial response to a virus or bacteria it has not seen before can be all-hands-in-deck all-hands-to-the-pumps situation. And that can be bad because that extreme response can damage the body it is trying to protect. During the 1918 flu pandemic, for example, many people died not from the virus from the “cytokine storm” of their body over-reacting to a novel virus. Early in the COVID-19 pandemic, this was thought to be causing a lot of the COVID deaths. However, even absent a cytokine storm, your body going full metal immune response is almost never a good thing. It can scar vital organs, it can damage muscles and it can literally shorten your lifespan. Every sickness — yes, even “harmless” childhood disease — does some degree of lasting damage. Usually too small to be noticed but sometimes, as in the case of a novel disease, significant.
By contrast, vaccines do not induce this kind of response. They familiarize your body with a small amount of a dead virus, a weak virus or, in the case of COVID-19, the most recognizable part of the virus. The result is that immunity is gained without doing the damage of a drastic immune response. And if your body encounters the virus in the future, it is more likely to moderate its response than to go ape on it.
Now I’m going to riff on Kurzgesagt’s video into something more speculative. One of the notable things about our society is that we are not only living longer, we are living better. If you’re a middle-aged person, you are very likely in better health and just look younger than your grandparents did at your age. This despite a raging obesity problem. We are aging better than ever and having fewer health problems at later ages than previous generations did. Why is that?
I believe there many factors that are causing us to age more gracefully than our ancestors did. But a huge factor is probably vaccines. By not getting childhood diseases, by not getting the flu every year, by not being exposed to cholera and typhus and all manner of things, our bodies are enduring far less of the low-grade damage that builds up over the decades and ages us.1
One of the talking points of the COVID “skeptics” has long been that the virus kills “only” 1% of people and even smaller percentages of young people. But COVID is not a binary. It’s not like it kills you or you’re fine. Being sick damages your body. Going to the hospital damages your body. Being pumped with life-saving interventions damages your body. There is a growing wealth of evidence that many of those who survive COVID-19, especially if they were not vaccinated, have ongoing health problems up to and including “long COVID”. And it is likely that “complications from COVID” will be something that appears on death certificates into the indefinite future. We are unfortunately doing a natural experiment here. Over the next few decades, we are going to see how the long-term health of the vaccinated compares to that of the unvaccinated. And I would bet my house2 that the vaccinated not only do better, but significantly so.
It is especially distressing to see skepticism about COVID vaccines back-flowing into skepticism about all vaccines. Because vaccines are one of the most incredible developments in human history. They are the reason most of us live past out fifth birthdays. They are the reason children aren’t routinely blinded, deafened or disabled by “harmless” childhood disease. But I also believe they are a critical part of why we are aging better than ever; why our medical advances have not created a society of demented cryptkeepers hobbling around. Even if you doubt the COVID vaccines — and you shouldn’t — why turn your back on one of mankind’s greatest triumphs? Why put your trust in, to pick an example almost at random, the idiot scion of a failed political dynasty instead of the thousands of scientists, doctors, virologists and epidemiologists who have created, promulgated and documented this medical miracle?
There is a tendency in our society to favor “natural” things over artificial things. But humans naturally do not live as long as we do, do not live as well as we do and spend their short lives in a crushing poverty those in developed countries can not even imagine. So I am very happy that Kurzgesagt did this video to show, in wonderful detail, how our natural immune system is incredible, agile, skilled, miraculous … but also dangerous, destructive and callous. Don’t let the word “natural” romanticize things. Natural immunity sucks.
- One can take this too far. There are theories that the rise of allergies are a result of our society being a bit too clean. We don’t want our immune system to go nuclear but we also don’t want them to go slack. There’s a balance here. But it’s way on the side of vaccines.
- If the bank didn’t own half of it.
It’s certainly an interesting topic. I’ve had covid twice now, despite being vaccinated and twice boosted. While the peak of the virus has been relatively mild for me the after effects have been harder to deal with. When I got it in July it was 1 to 2 months before I felt right again. I’m a little over a month out from my second infection and my cardio has very noticeably still not returned to form, and I’m struggling to even run 3 miles. It’s been even tougher on my wife who is going on 6 months pregnant (thankfully there seems to be no impact there). Point being all of this is very believable. Even when you make a full recovery a viral infection really kicks your ass. My son has bounced back like a machine in each instance but I hope he doesn’t have to deal with too much more of it.Report
Vaccinations are a form of preventative medicine. You aren’t supposed to get the illness after you’ve been vaccinated. You are living proof that this vaccination is not working –as a vaccination–.
Vaccinations that expect you to be boosted in less than 5 years (which is about the minimal time memory B-cells last) are not vaccinations. They are antibody-generators at best. And that can convey some short-lived immunity — but it’s more like being injected with donated plasma. You’re no longer using your adaptive immune system effectively.Report
Says who?Report
[]www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/covid-19-immunity-how-long-does-it-last/
This is a basic primer on “why we think it is possible to become immune to COVID19 through infection by SARS-COV-2.” That it WAS an open research question is important. We do not develop solid immunity to all viruses (dengue is a particularly nasty case, where you get a worse outcome if you’ve been exposed previously to a different strain. Antigenic Original Sin plus antibody-dependent enhancement of the disease itself).Report
[]journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/cvi.00034-17
This seems like a pretty comprehensive review. Even with an immunologic response, they’re not confident that the meningococcus vaccine works for more than a year, due to the relative slowness to generate antibodies, and the fast incubation period of the disease.Report
Both of his links strongly support vaccination. They do indeed talk about how normal vaccinations can have limited time frames. I see nothing in there that supports the concept that the covid vaccination “isn’t working”.Report
Seems stupid to even respond to something like this on the internet but whatever. It bought me mild cases where no one ended up in the hospital, and prevented me from taking acute care space from others. That alone is enough to make me feel like I did the right thing and for the record I’m feeling better every day. I literally wrote that comment from the squat rack.Report
I feel you, man. If it doesn’t make the virus bounce off your chest like Captain America’s shield repelling bullets, what’s the point even?Report
Prior to covid, I was rarely sick. I never took flu vaxes as I didn’t get sick. Once every 4-5 years maybe. Post covid vax, I’ve been six half a dozen times–@ three times a year….as a fully remote person. Same type of “sick” before and after covid…..Report
I assume you’re older now than you were in the past.
I’ve had covid. I’m fully remote. Close to no physical contact with people other than my daughter. Odds are good I got it sitting next to someone on a plane or at a wedding… but no one around me ever showed symptoms so I’ll never know.
The transmission rate of this thing is crazy high.Report
Odds are you didn’t get COVID19. You probably contracted SARS-cov-2 into your sinus cavities, and your mucosal immunity triumphed. As COVID19 is a disease that sets in after your body has pretty much vanquished the virus, if you don’t get the exponential growth, you don’t get the disease (and the deadly lipid oxidation).
As most things are, this is an oversimplification.
The transmission rate is crazy high among the vaccinated — because they’re a one trick pony, and the virus has learned how to evade it. Good thing Omicron is so weak — the vaccinated are constantly passing it around.Report
I went to the doctor (for other reasons) and they tested me. Longer more exact test said it was Covid.
That’s over and above being so tired I couldn’t watch the TV for a day or two and getting a cough for a month or two afterwards.Report
The argument that “natural immunity” is better than the covid shot struck me as baldly untrue on its face when I first qualified to get the shot but we went through Delta and Omicron and… well, we dropped the Greek letters, I don’t know what letter we should be on by now.
It struck me as vaguely unhelpful to get boosted with Alpha despite the strain running around being some other Greek letter.
“Natural Immunity”, however, gave “immunity” against a more recent strain than Alpha. And that’s the only reason that Natural would have been better.
I’m glad I got my bivalent booster and it had protection against both Alpha and Omicron running around in there.
I’m expecting to need another bivalent booster next year but if it still only protects against Alpha and Omicron, I’m going to need an explainer about why that’s still useful.Report
If I’m attacked in my house, ideally I’d like to be able to shoot the attacker. Beating him to death with a frying pan is less than ideal but still easier than using my bare hands.Report
Guns, after they’ve lost their bullets, are bludgeons. Fair enough.
But giving me a new gun without giving me new bullets is doing nothing more than giving me a newer bludgeon.Report
There is a significant biological cost your body pays for acquiring natural immunity that you generally don’t pay for acquiring immunity via vaccines. One can debate the relative efficacy of natural versus vaccinated immunities (and, bluntly, all the arguments I’ve seen for the former have been very feeble) but even if you grant the critics their vague substantive points and say “natural immunity is stronger” (which I don’t) the vaccinated immunity is “free” whereas the natural immunity is not.
Kurzgesagt breaks it down here (with birds)! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-K7mxdN62M&t=557sReport
I’m not arguing for not getting vaccinated, boosted, and then getting boosted with a bivalent booster.
I think you should get vaccinated, boosted, and then get the bivalent booster.
But Omicron is no longer the dominant strain. I don’t know why getting a second bivalent (Alpha+Omicron) booster will be useful against whatever the hell strain is going around in October.Report
Put another way, I got my Shingles Vaccine in two shots: one in October, one in February.
If I said “I’m not worried about Covid, I got my Shingles Vaccine!”, wouldn’t you have the thought of something like “The Shingles Vaccine is not a Covid Vaccine, Jaybird!”
And if I argued back against that point as if you were an antivaxxer, would you see that as a reasonable interpretation of your point?Report
A different strain is not a different virus. You go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had.
Now a really good question is why did it take Trump’s FDA 9 months to fully approve the first vaccines and Biden’s FDA years to not yet approve a replacement.Report
yeah, that’s why even though most years the flu vaccine is an imperfect match for the strains circulating, it’s still a good idea to take it. I’ve had people in the medical field (people whose opinions I respect and seem to know their stuff) say that even if you catch a DIFFERENT strain, you’ll be less sick.
I think I’ve had that happen – had the flu shot in a bad-match year, got something later that season that was slightly worse than a typical cold but nowhere as bad as full blown flu, whereas people I knew without the vaccine were down for two weeks with something similar.
It’s like a raincoat – if it’s really bucketing down, you’ll probably not stay completely dry, but at least you won’t be soaked to the skin. Add in an umbrella (booster?) and you’ll probably stay even dryer.Report
We should celebrate the likes of Jonas Salk, Joseph Lister, and Norman Bourlag much more than we do.They have saved literally billions of lives.Report