The Fickle Nature of Supreme Court Rule

Eric Medlin

History instructor. Writer. Rising star in the world of affordable housing.

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141 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    Given today’s ruling on the EPA, I worry that Republicans will think they are insulated, in that if Congress has to direct everything the executive branch does, Congress will direct nothing.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

      The issue is less “direct everything the executive branch does” and more “give permission for it to be done”. Fighting GWarming requires vast changes in the economy to reduce carbon emissions, Congress never envisioned that as a role for the EPA (which has the mandate to regulate pollution).

      Congress hasn’t given it’s permission. GW didn’t exist as a concept when the EPA was created.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Global Warming as a term first appeared in policy and science arenas in 1975. The EPA was a mere lass of 5 by that point. So its reasonable to expect the Congress of the day was aware of the concept, even if it didn’t codify it into the EPA’s organic Act.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

          Congress of the should have been aware of the concept, but if I’ve learned anything over my many years is that congress is very good at willful ignorance.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            Oh I agree they are, and frankly I think SCOTUS overreached even more on this decision then Roe. The whole way government functions is for the President (as the head of the Executive Branch) to take care the laws are faithfully executed – which of necessity requires interpretation and rule making beyond specific legislative language. Even for major questions the Executive has to have some authority delegated. And like the VRA, SCOTUS is barking up the wrong tree to tell Congress to redelegate.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

              The problem with the court over-reaching is that they pay no price for it. Sure, they may poll poorly, but with that and $3.25 you can get a bad coffee from Starbucks.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

          Ignoring that “Global Cooling” was the popular problem at the time…

          The EPA was a mere lass of 5 by that point. So its reasonable to expect the Congress of the day was aware of the concept, even if it didn’t codify it into the EPA’s organic Act.

          So you’re admitting that the EPA predates the idea of GW by years and also admitting that Congress of the Day didn’t codify it into the EPA’s mandate.

          And after having admitted both of those things, you still think SCOTUS is over reaching here?Report

          • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Congress didn’t codify a lot of things that agencies are none the less expected to do. Its called authorizing by appropriation. They basically use the annual appropriations to expand duties under a variety of acts consistent with an agency mission. Happens every year.

            And yes, I still think they over reached. Granted I’m not unbiased about federal agencies, but Congress couldn’t have been expected back then to have a crystal ball, and can’t now either, but considering the aforementioned appropriations – which are a Constitutional duty for Congress – can’t be delivered in a timely, much less annual fashion, Congress long ago gave up doing the fine tooth comb work SCOTUS apparently expects. That’s not an agency’s fault, and the sooner we all get over that assumption the better off we will all be.Report

          • giovanni da procida in reply to Dark Matter says:

            According to a paper in the Journal of the American Meteorological Society (Peterson et al. 2008. Vol 89 issue 9), int he 1970’s there was more scientific concern around global warming than global cooling:

            “An enduring popular myth suggests that in the 1970s the climate science community was predicting “global cooling” and an “imminent” ice age, an observation frequently used by those who would undermine what climate scientists say today about the prospect of global warming. A review of the literature suggests that, on the contrary, greenhouse warming even then dominated scientists’ thinking as being one of the most important forces shaping Earth’s climate on human time scales. ”

            The idea of global warming goes as far back as Svante Arrhenius in 1896.

            Congress was briefed on the effects of CO2 on the atmosphere as early as the 1960’s. Moynihan wrote a letter to the Nixon Administration in 1969, saying:
            September 17—Memo from Daniel Patrick Moynihan to John Ehrlichman in the Nixon White House, mentions Hugh Heffner and Robert White.

            “The CO2 content is normally in a stable cycle, but recently man has begun to introduce instability through the burning of fossil fuels.”

            “Goodbye New York. Goodbye Washington, for that matter.”

            In sum:
            1. The idea that the globe is warming predates the EPA by decades.
            2. Congress had been made of aware of warming by the time the EPA was created.

            BUT in researching this comment, it looks like the EPA originates from an Executive order by Nixon, which Congress then approved. From that order:

            “With its broad mandate, EPA would also develop competence in areas of environmental protection that have not previously been given enough attention, such, for example, as the problem of noise, and it would provide an organization to which new programs in these areas could be added.”

            So, yes, the SCOTUS is overreaching.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to giovanni da procida says:

              Congress had been made of aware of warming by the time the EPA was created.

              Congress was claiming 20 years later that GW didn’t exist and voted 99-1 during Bush2 to ignore it.

              Decades ago there are still Congressmen around who voted and/or wrote the bill for the EPA and they’ve said the EPA’s mandate was never intended to include GW.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                By this line of logic, the city ordinance tin the 1880s hat created the LAPD didn’t specifically address Lyft scooters, so the police are forbidden to write tickets for riding them on the sidewalk?

                Is this how it works?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The LAPD’s role is to enforce the law, not decide what the law should be.

                Of course, the question in the case was whether the EPA had crossed that line, so any analogy is going to be imperfect. I don’t know if the Court decided correctly; none of us do. There’s just no reason to assume that they decided absurdly.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Fair enough.

                The American with Disabilities Act is a civil rights statute and people are allowed to sue if they believe they are being denied “reasonable” access to buildings, which was the exact wording in the federal statute. “Reasonable accommodation.”

                What is “reasonable accommodation”, you ask? Well, all 50 states codified the ADA into their building regulations, by adopting the International Code Congress’ (A private organization of engineers) building code, by reference.

                This code has been determined by courts as a “safe harbor” meaning if you comply with the code, you are presumed to not be discriminating.

                A very convenient ruling!

                But, according to the logic I’m seeing here, because Congress didn’t write a thousand pages of stuff like “And any building over two stories must have an elevator” then there is no safe harbor, no possible way for building departments to enforce the ADA.

                Except…as I said, the ADA is a Texas Bounty Hunter sort of thing, where even if the building department doesn’t enforce the ADA, anyone can sue a building owner if they believe they are suffering discrimination.

                It appears that the SCOTUS has removed the safe harbor upon which millions of property owners rely, leaving them exposed to frivolous lawsuits.

                P.S. I know this isn’t what SCOTUS wants or means, and I don’t doubt for a second that they will find reasons to explain why the EPA cannot promulgate rules, but the state Building Commission sure as hell can.

                Which is why they are so full of crap.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The ADA… didn’t Chesa have a press conference about that?

                Huh.

                Man, how bad does ADA abuse have to be if even Chesa thought that it was being abused?Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                This is not relevant. He was recalled, let’s move on.Report

              • Oh, indeed he was!

                But my point was not about Chesa. It was about ADA abuse.

                And whether it existed before 3 minutes ago.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                Find another DA, one who actually has the power to abuse his/her authority.Report

              • Slade, my argument wasn’t that Chesa was abusing his authority.

                My argument was that Chesa held a press conference about the ADA and how *OTHERS* were abusing the ADA.

                Like, prior to this Supreme Court ruling.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yeah, I realized that too late to edit.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                RE: ADA
                So that’s where the anti-abortion people got their idea for enforcement.

                If you’re going to restructure society, you give everyone (as in random civilians) the ability to enforce the new order.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It’s not the same. For an ADA lawsuit the plaintiff has to have standing, which means they have suffered an injury from the violation. The absence of anything like that from the TX law (as I understand it anyway) really is novel.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                If you read the article, you’ll see that the description of what was going on with the ADA was closer to Texas than ought to have been. (Hence, Chesa’s press conference.)Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I took a look, and I’m not sure about the parallel. Among the allegations are the plaintiff’s firm falsifying evidence and filing suits it knows are without merit. The issue there seems to be the (alleged) abusive conduct of the attorneys involved not a problem with the ADA itself.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                I dunno. The article mentions stuff like:

                The Chamber formed an ADA Litigation Defense Fund and recruited pro bono legal assistance to help resolve more than 30 of the cases. They also organized educational sessions — more than 80 of them — to help merchants understand the ADA and to identify areas where they could be vulnerable to future claims if they did not remedy accessibility issues.

                Like, I think that the lawyers and their witness found something easily gamable, and gamed it.

                Shortly after Friday’s news conference, Boudin’s office issued a statement on the dismissal, saying, “Our complaint alleges that Potter Handy is engaged in a fraudulent scheme that abuses the intent and purpose of the Americans with Disabilities Act.”

                “Abuses the intent and purpose”.

                That tells me that they’re gaming what’s actually there. They’re, like, following the law to the letter. They’re just, you know, abusing the intent and purpose of the law.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You say “fair enough”, then attempt to make another legal analogy.

                You don’t understand the West Virginia v EPA ruling. I can tell because I don’t understand it, and you’re describing it slightly more poorly than I can.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Actually yeah. Scooters are similar to bikes, walking, and normal scooters. Unless the city has outlawed normal scooters I don’t see why the LAPD should be making up stuff on their own.

                Are you good with the NYPD just deciding they’re going to ban “loosies” on their own without the city instructing them to do so?

                Are you good with the local cops having very vague instructions on what to do so they can make up stuff as they go along in the name of the “public good” (which they’ll also define on the fly)?

                If your argument is local cops should be able to ban scooters on sidewalks because they feel like it, then how are you with lots of other “bullies with badges” behavior that will be directed towards the homeless and minorities?Report

              • giovanni da procida in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It’s easy to handwave at things Congress did and said when no context or quotation is provided, so I’ll ignore those claims without specifics.

                Let’s go back to your original claims that I addressed:
                1. Global Cooling was a popular problem (you said to ignore it, but raised it in doing so)
                2. EPA predates the idea of GW by years
                3. Congress of the Day didn’t codify it into the EPA’s mandate.

                I linked to proof that more scientists were concerned about Warming than Cooling by the scientific community at the time.

                I showed that the idea of GW predated the formation of the EPA..

                I showed that the original order for the EPA included a description that it has a “broad mandate” to focus on problems that don’t get enough attention (the specific example given in the text was “noise”, which isn’t a toxic pollutant and everyone creates it) and provided opportunity to add new programs.

                Seeing as you didn’t respond to the specifics, I appreciate you admitting that your original arguments were in error and you accept that the court was out of line!Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Dark Matter says:

        So if someone in 1989 made some super toxic chemical the EPA has no permission to regulate it because it was invented after the EPA was authorized. That makes no sense. Can the FAA only regulate plane designed before 1958? Can’t reg GPS or other new avionics because they were made in the 2000’s?Report

        • Pinky in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          Can we agree that if the law creating the FAA limited its scope to planes designed before 1958, it would have no authority under that law to regulate planes designed afterwards?Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

            If congress smoked a big ol bowl and wrote that then yeah.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              IANAL, but 42 U. S. C. §7411(d) does appear to treat existing power plants differently than new power plants. It looks like the EPA in 2015 decided on a new plan to reduce the emission from existing coal plants: to make them become renewable energy plants that had to comply with new plant standards. Again, IANAL, but it seems possible to me that there were some shenanigans there.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                There may have been sheninagans, but things labeled U.S.C. are federal statutes. Which means that if EPA conducted proper rulemaking under the Administrative Procedures Act, the worst they should have had to face was an arbitrary and capricious decision making determination requiring them to redo the rule. SCOTUS wanted to upend the regulatory state and decided to use this case to do so.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                IANAL, but the ruling looks narrow to me.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

                The thing that always made me nervous about doing major industry restructuring via the EPA is that — particularly in this case — there are other agencies whose feet are being stepped on.

                If we’re going to force major changes in how the electric grid is organized, FERC and NERC should be there too. NRC if nukes are involved. If we’re going to force large changes in transportation drive trains, Dept of Transportation ought to be there too.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Michael Cain says:

                no federal agency – including EPA – is allowed to do that sort of rule making without interagency coordination run by the White House. Not once not ever. So while none of those folks had a role that was visible in crafting those policies, EPA would not and frankly could not have gone out to public comment without getting signed off on at the agency head or cabinet secretary level. The White House – even Trump’s White House – has permanent civil service staff dedicated to this.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

                Now I’m going to have to find some time to go back and dig through the CPP details. I recall vaguely that FERC was involved, but only in the sense of “We are prepared to advise the states if their plans violate regional reliability designs.”Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

                New stuff treated differently from old stuff. So ???? Why that would be like treating a DC 3 differently from a 737.

                How we make a rule re: an electric car they are not gas cars.

                Standards change. So?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                As I’ve noted many times, I am a lawyer and I know everything about this decision. I’m sure that the case with everyone criticizing it too.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          It’s reasonable to think that a mandate to deal with toxic chemicals includes new toxic chemicals.

          It’s not reasonable to think that a mandate to deal with toxic chemicals includes restructuring the economy to deal with a chemical that has no effect on individual humans because humans actually create that chemical ourselves when we exhale.

          This is why when we look at normal EPA regulations and mandates and try to shoehorn carbon in we get insane results. Call carbon dioxide a toxic chemical and every carbon burning activity needs to outright end.

          The EPA, to it’s credit, did an a**pull and decided to not try banning activities which create parts per million of carbon and added multiple zeros to that. Thus they’re not proclaiming a need to regulate large numbers of humans (say, football games). This doesn’t change that the existing laws were NEVER intended to deal with anything even slightly close to this situation.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to Dark Matter says:

            We create sh*t also but we regulate how we get rid of it. Arsenic is natural but we regulate it.
            No the EPA should not be restructuring the entire economy. Good it’s not doing that. They did withdraw the rule in question so why did the case even go forward???Report

            • Philip H in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              They did withdraw the rule in question so why did the case even go forward???

              Because red states and the fossil fuel industry want to dismantle the federal regulatory apparatus and they decided to use this as the mechanism. the House that Federalist built was happy to oblidge.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              We create sh*t also but we regulate how we get rid of it. Arsenic is natural but we regulate it.

              Those are both poisons. Carbon dioxide isn’t poisonous and is created by humans bodies, fires, as well as by fuels.

              What we’re trying to do here is lower the ocean and influence the weather.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                What we’re trying to do here is lower the ocean and influence the weather.

                To prevent economic, public health and ecological calamity. Which seems to be slightly important.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                You are arguing that it needs to be done. The Supremes pointed out that there’s no legal basis for this agency to do this.

                Their current mandate doesn’t include preventing the ocean from rising. For that matter calling this an issue of “public health” is also a massive over reach.

                The “economic calamity” instantly runs into the problem that if we put any sane discount rate on the “damage” the best way to handle this is to ignore it and deal with side effects directly.

                Or in other words, this doesn’t fit under the normal “pollution control” model. It’s fine to argue that we need to do it any way (not all problems show up in all models), but Congress hasn’t decided what to do so. Anything the EPA does is simply a whim until that happens.

                Now we might be able to do something via an Executive Order or three, I’m not sure what the limits are there.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                We ARE raising the oceans and influencing the weather.

                That is history, it’s happened.

                The choice before us is whether we will continue to do so or choose to stop.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sure. But without a legal mandate from Congress we’re in “bureaucrats as philosopher kings” territory.Report

              • Glyph in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I mean, if we want to get technical, carbon dioxide IS poisonous to humans. That’s why we exhale it. Try to inhale a whole bunch and see what happens. And we are creating a whole bunch. It’s perhaps not poisoning us directly, yet, but it is a poison, we are creating a whole bunch of it, and it’s having deleterious effects on us.

                https://intjem.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12245-017-0142-yReport

              • Dark Matter in reply to Glyph says:

                This is like claiming water is poisonous at the right dosage. If we need to make this argument we’re showcasing just how far out of alignment with it’s mandate the EPA is here.

                If we’re going to use the EPA for this then we need to change it’s mandate. Alternatively we could just impose a carbon tax. Congress hasn’t made up it’s mind.Report

              • Glyph in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Water IS poisonous at the right dosage. If smokestacks were instead waterstacks and spewing out so much water that it was flooding the adjacent areas and people were drowning – poisoned, by good ol’ water – we’d need them to stop doing that.

                I’m a simple man, but the words “Environmental Protection” seem fairly straightforward to me and are absolutely its basic mandate.

                This is from EPA Order 1110.2 (12/4/70), initially establishing its org, and describing its mandates.

                9. AIR POLLUTION CONTROL OFFICE. The Air Pollution Control Office shall be headed by a Commissioner reporting to the Administrator. The Office shall be responsible for the conduct of programs for the definition, prevention, and control of air pollution having as their objectives (1) the definition of air quality required to minimize or eliminate deleterious effects of air pollutants and (2) the achievement of a wholesome air environment through development of air pollution control technology.

                (emphasis by me)

                I struggle to see how they aren’t empowered by original language right there to not only define the acceptable-ppm standard of ANY chemical as needed; but additionally, under the terms written there, we are clearly currently experiencing the broadly-named “deleterious effects of air pollutants” (and an “air pollutant” can absolutely be generated by natural events such as a wildfire…which we seem to be having a lot of now, for some unknown reason).

                We can all play word games all day. But not only are we wasting time while things crash down around our ears, those words right there from 1970 seem clear enough to me.

                https://www.epa.gov/archive/epa/aboutepa/epa-order-11102-initial-organization-epa.htmlReport

              • Dark Matter in reply to Glyph says:

                I struggle to see how they aren’t empowered by original language right there

                The rhetorical slight of hand you’re doing is redefining the meaning of “air pollutant”.

                define the acceptable-ppm standard of ANY chemical as needed;

                If we define carbon as a toxin and regulate it as such, then keep in mind that humans can’t pass whatever standard we’d want to use.

                If we need to put in carve outs for humans because the results are insane, then the the mandate is so wide that it covers literally everything. All economic activity, all human life, but hey, just trust us to use this tool appropriately.

                This is undefendable. The only reason to even try is because GW should be opposed. That’s massively corrupting the process for a desired outcome.Report

              • Glyph in reply to Dark Matter says:

                “The rhetorical slight of hand you’re doing is redefining the meaning of “air pollutant”.

                I don’t think I am. Argon, for example, makes up nearly 1% of our atmo. It’s naturally-occurring, just like carbon dioxide is. In and of itself, it’s inert and considered non-toxic. However, because it’s heavier than air, in enclosed spaces too much of it is an asphyxiant (dose makes the poison, right?)

                Do you mean to tell me that if I come to your garage, close the door, and uncork a tank of argon in there, that I’m not “polluting” the “air” in there?

                How is this rhetorical sleight of hand?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Glyph says:

                “ How is this rhetorical sleight of hand?”

                Anything conservatives don’t like is inherently dirtypool.

                Anything conservatives do is pre-ordained by George Washington Jesus Christ as inherently infallible.

                Duh.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Glyph says:

                Are you claiming that carbon dioxide is poisoning anyone? Causing negative health side effects? In your example(s), you reach for things that do that.

                Since carbon di doesn’t do those things, nor are those the reasons why we want to reduce (not eliminate) it, you need to use a comparison where are are NO negative health effects and and explain how the EPA still has authority.

                What’s going on is the equiv of having a mandate to prevent/reduce teenage smoking and jumping from that to teenage unwed pregnancies because there are children involved.

                It’s probably a good idea but there’s a total disconnect in the reasoning on how to make this legally happen.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Are you claiming that carbon dioxide is poisoning anyone?

                Ploutonion at Hierapolis is pretty awesome, if you’ve never read about it.Report

              • Glyph in reply to Dark Matter says:

                No, I conceded in my original comment that it’s not directly poisoning us.

                But per that excerpt, the EPA mandate is to manage “deleterious effects” on the environment. Not specifically and narrowly “deleterious human-health effects”. Where’s the support for the idea that the mandate applies to human-poisons-as-usually-defined only?

                The mandate’s clearly broader than that. The EPA also has initiatives related to litter reduction, and litter isn’t directly poisoning any of us either. It mostly just looks bad. (Though in some cases it harms animals, such as birds or marine life).

                Is excess carbon released by power plants having “deleterious effects”, or not? It’s clear to me it is. Environmental effects, impacting humans and animals and plants. Serious effects.

                How is this not their mandate?Report

              • KenB in reply to Glyph says:

                I found this Jonathan Adler post helpful to understand Roberts’ argument. Basically he says there’s a difference in kind between what the EPA has traditionally enforced vs what the “Clean Power Plan” would demand, and even if you can make a plausible argument that the original statutory language covers it, it’s certainly not something the Congress that passed the statute would’ve had in mind and it’s a significant enough change that it should be explicitly authorized by this Congress.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Glyph says:

                Do you mean to tell me that if I come to your garage, close the door, and uncork a tank of argon in there, that I’m not “polluting” the “air” in there?

                Trespassing, reckless endangerment, possible attempted murder. But no, you’re not an emission source that can be regulated under the Clean Air Act.Report

              • Glyph in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Right. Because argon isn’t historically or currently posing a problem. But this is all distracting from the central point.

                Is it the EPA’s mandate to manage deleterious effects on the environment? I would say yes, by basic definitions of the words involved here and the text I cited.

                Is excess carbon released by power plants having deleterious effects on the environment? Again I would say yes, based on current scientific consensus and understanding.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Glyph says:

                Judging from recent laws that Republicans have passed, I think maybe then, the solution to environmental damage is clear.

                We pass a law allowing anyone to sue anyone who is polluting the environment. Countersuits are not allowed, and no one needs standing of personal harm in order to bring the suit.

                The pesky bureaucrats are removed from the equation and citizens just settle the matter in court.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                This is wrong.

                Part of me thinks we should do it just to drive home the point of how wrong this is.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Glyph says:

                As I read it, the judgement doesn’t say they can’t regulate what comes out of power plant stacks. What it says is that they are limited in the mechanism by which they can regulate.

                To whit, they can’t regulate the problem into oblivion by shifting away from fossil fuel burning.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          So if someone in 1989 made some super toxic chemical the EPA has no permission to regulate it because it was invented after the EPA was authorized. That makes no sense.

          If you need to compare carbon dioxide to a “super toxic chemical” to make your argument then you have a problem.Report

          • giovanni da procida in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Nitrogen and phosphate are crucial plant fertilizers. When they run off the land in high concentrations they can cause harmful algal blooms (HABS) and dead zones in coastal environments. Dead zones cause fish kills. HABS cause sickness and fatalities in humans.

            Can we not regulate Nitrogen and Phosphate use and pollution, because they aren’t “super toxic chemicals”?Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to giovanni da procida says:

              It is possible to draw a line from a group of farm’s runoff to coastal problems. It is possible to draw a line from an animal choking on a specific piece of trash to the manufacturers of that trash. It’s often reasonable for the EPA to say “stop or control that pollutant”.

              GW is much bigger, vaguer, more diffuse, expensive, global/international, created by living human bodies, a decent measurement for economic activity/prosperity, and it’s a net good for mankind even including GW.

              One of the more obvious solutions for GW is nuclear power which is clearly outside of the EPA (it’s regulated by the NRA).

              Comparing this to normal “pollutants” seems wrong on the face of it. What’s needed is a political trade off or other decision. Doing nothing is within the realm of reasonable alternatives because of the whole “net good for mankind” thing.Report

              • giovanni da procida in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The original language for the EPA includes the idea of addressing noise pollution, which is “much bigger, vaguer, more diffuse, expensive, global/international, created by living human bodies, a decent measurement for economic activity/prosperity” and yet the EPA was given leave to regulate it.

                Bring on the nukes and deal with global warming!Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to giovanni da procida says:

                Oh good grief. With noise pollution you can draw a line from the person being affected to the source. The range of noise is very short.

                The “polluter” is right next to the “polluted”.

                So no, noise pollution is not vague, diffuse, expensive to fix, and it’s especially not big.

                Bring on the nukes and deal with global warming!

                Given that many of our sources are in China (etc), we’re instantly facing questions like “should we be encouraging the Chinese to build nuclear plants”.

                So the EPA is thus deep into international relations as well as nuclear energy regulation.Report

              • giovanni da procida in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Noise pollution isn’t vague, diffuse, expensive to fix, nor especially big?

                What percent of Americans live in or near urban areas?
                Take Elizabeth NJ: how do you differentiate between airport noise, port noise, rail noise, street noise, construction noise, and general city noise?

                I would argue that global warming is easier to address than noise pollution. For GW, a price per ton of carbon can be fixed at the generation point and/or point of import. Then some market mechanism can be used to back this up (cap and trade, fee and dividend, etc.).

                Whats the plan for decreasing noise pollution: asking the moped rider gunning his engine down the street at 3 am, the F16s overflying my house, the jackhammer down the block, and the daily commuter car engines to please be quieter?

                Also, your original point was that EPA only regulates toxic chemicals- I’ve pointed out that isn’t so.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to giovanni da procida says:

                Noise pollution isn’t vague, diffuse, expensive to fix, nor especially big?

                The source and the affected party are both within the jurisdiction of one local community. They’re certainly both inside the USA.

                So by the standards of GW, no, noise pollution isn’t big, vague, or expensive.

                With GW a peasant in China burning firewood equally affects everyone on the planet, ditto me doing the same.

                I would argue that global warming is easier to address than noise pollution. For GW, a price per ton of carbon can be fixed at the generation point and/or point of import.

                Sure. Absolutely true. In plain English this is called a carbon tax.

                So, the first problem is how to get China to buy into this (the EPA can’t do that).

                The second problem is the EPA lacks the regulatory authority to impose carbon taxes on the entire US. The EPA can’t unilaterally set gas taxes, tariffs, etc.

                The amount of taxes collected would be extremely high because we’d be trying to restructure the economy. That’s not necessarily a bad thing (presumably it’s off set by reducing other taxes) but it’s a joke to claim the EPA can do this without Congress.

                The scale of this makes it Congresses job.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Reading the Adler link, the question is not “Can the EPA regulate CO2?”. Roberts said they could. What he said they could not do was to regulate it by demanding a plant stop burning fossil fuels.

            So the EPA could go to the coal plant and say, “You have to scrub your stack gasses so the CO2 released is below some ppb.”, as long as the technology existed to do that and implementing it was reasonable. They can’t tell a plant that they are not allowed to burn coal, or that they can only burn X tons a coal / year.Report

            • PD Shaw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              The Clean Air Act works primarily as a technology-forcing vehicle. The EPA sets standards based upon “Reasonably Available Control Technology” or “Best Available Control Technology” depending on the circumstances. That means that compliance is achievable for financially viable emitters because the technology exists, but the drafters were concerned about technology creating not just a floor, but a ceiling. If a facility could meet or exceed the standard in some other way, then it did not have to actually install the widget that created the standard. Of course, the development of alternative control technologies influences the creation of new floors.

              So when EPA created SO2 standards for power plants, there was an implicit requirement to install scrubbers with all the associated costs of retrofit installation and continuing operating costs. A lot of coal-burning power plants switched to low sulfur coal to avoid those costs. Some even switched to natural gas.

              I’ve not seen anyone mention this, but it seems clear that EPA knew at the time the Clean Air Act of 1990 was passed that it could not directly require a plant to stop burning high sulfur coal to meet the SO2 criteria, even though that’s effectively what happened.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to PD Shaw says:

                So does the ruling say that the EPA can’t regulate CO2 emissions? Because I’m not seeing that (but IANAL, so…).

                Think about one of my links in my last Tech Tuesday (on a Wednesday), the one that had a power plant turning all it’s CO2 into baking soda. If that is “Reasonably Available Control Technology”, then the EPA could say that CO2 emissions have to be 0, and point to that as an answer, or the utility converts to burning something else.Report

              • PD Shaw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                EPA can certainly regulate CO2 emissions, the SCOTUS approved the part of the regulation that required “heat rate improvements.” (The regulation had already been withdrawn so it’s not in effect)

                I’m not sure that baking soda conversion is quite demonstrated available technology yet. Maybe it is, but I think EPA will need evidence that there is a market for all that baking soda, otherwise they need to consider the economic and environmental costs of landfilling.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to PD Shaw says:

                I’ve not seen anyone mention this, but it seems clear that EPA knew at the time the Clean Air Act of 1990 was passed that it could not directly require a plant to stop burning high sulfur coal to meet the SO2 criteria, even though that’s effectively what happened.

                I’ve pointed out from time to time that the plan was there would be limited fuel switching, and a ton of scrubbers added. (All of this applies to eastern plants; western plants were insignificant in the big picture.) The large-scale shift to low-sulfur coal was a huge surprise to the regulators.

                Instead of scrubbers we got things like Plant Scherer in Georgia, the largest coal burner in the country. Fueled exclusively with low-sulfur Powder River Basin coal and buying enough cheap permits to cover their emissions. The coal is shipped 2,100 miles and the coal cars are hauled back to Wyoming empty to be refilled. Scherer didn’t start adding SO2 scrubbers until almost 20 years later, and then because of a state rule.

                No one anticipated that Wyoming mines could produce coal for a quarter the cost of eastern coal, nor that the UP and BNFS could move it cheaply in huge trains. Western coal went from 10% of national production to 50% effectively overnight.Report

              • PD Shaw in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Many of the coal people think that the Clean Act of 1990, signed by Bush, was a sop to his buddies in the natural gas industry. And that was before the fracking revolution made it very competitive.

                To be clear, the CAA of 1990 required EPA to address with SO2, and the differences between high and low sulfur coal was well understood (as well as the natural gas substitutes). EPA didn’t require any power plant to switch fuel. I doubt the thought occurred, but maybe the rulemakings addressed this.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to PD Shaw says:

                The biggest difference between the SO2 and CO2 situations is, in my mind, that in 1990 there were several ways to address the SO2 problem: fuel shifting to NG or natural low-sulfur coal, pre-combustion coal cleaning, and multiple flue gas scrubbing technologies. Here in 2022, there’s still only one demonstrated industrial-scale method for getting 90% reductions in CO2 emissions: fuel shifting.

                Which is going to be quite painful in some parts of the country.Report

  2. Saul Degraw says:

    The Reactionary Six might as well start issuing holdings with the reasoning of “Because we said so.”Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Which is why I don’t even bother pointing out the logic problems.

      It’s the mugs game of arguing with Creationists.

      We don’t have the power to stop the rampage of lawless and arbitrary power, but we have the ability to refuse to treat them as good faith participants in the democratic process.Report

  3. LeeEsq says:

    Biden already announced support for a filibuster carveout so the Democratic Party can codify abortion rights on a federal level. My guess is that this will lead the reactionary states to sue saying that the federal government has no power over reproductive freedom under any Amendment and the Court will side with the reactionary states.

    The Supreme Court should be expanded in size but I think polarization is going to make any reform really tough. Even in the few years between Obama and Biden, we saw the right go into increasing attack mode. Biden like Obama is encouraging DHS to exercise prosecutorial discretion and issued several memos on who should be considered a priority for deportation and who should not. Reactionaries didn’t like this during the Obama era but they didn’t sue over his policies. These days reactionary groups and states sue the Biden administration to follow Trump’s immigration policies. Biden was only able to reverse Trump’s Orwellian named Migrant Protection Protocol because Roberts and Kavanaugh joined the Sane Three. The others believed that Biden should be forced to follow Trump’s border policies.

    So even if the Democratic Party passes a Court expansion legislation, some reactionary group is going to sue and the Supreme Court will say that they are right because hey nonynony. This will force a constitutional crisis.Report

  4. Pinky says:

    I can assure you, after being locked in the attic for 49 years, conservatives aren’t unaware of the fickleness of the Supreme Court. Sticking with that abuse analogy, “Democrats have been pushed to make all sorts of Court reforms” and “these actions went so far as to provoke President Franklin Roosevelt”. Look what conservatives made liberals do!

    As for Cooke’s article, he’s making the opposite point from what’s depicted here. He’s not arguing for judicial activism; he’s applauding the Court for not partaking in judicial activism. You may disagree with his perspective on what counts as judicial activism, but you can’t claim that he’s promoting it.Report

  5. Chip Daniels says:

    But her emails.Report

  6. Burt Likko says:

    I tell myself not to despair. That the composition of the Court can change in what seems like the blink of an eye. That sometimes Justices can adopt positions that are not expected of them.

    I tell myself this is nothing unusual or novel. For most of its history, the Court has served the interests of socially conservative and monied interests. That it’s almost always been a trailing check on the progress of politics. Somehow, we’ve survived.

    I tell myself that the arc of history shows both that there are grand cycles of one party overreaching when it has power and the electorate recoiling from them, and then the other party correcting for the mistakes, then overcorrecting for them, and then losing power again, and that this is the natural ebb and flow of democracy over time. So this too shall pass and in the long run, no one has clean hands. I tell myself that the arc of history in America trends towards liberty, towards equality, towards justice. That what we’re living through right now is an eddy, a backcurrent, one that will eventually lose power and the course will correct back to its natural and powerful, if sometimes maddeningly slow, path to a better nation.

    I tell myself these things and then I look at the accumulated weight of recent experience and I feel despair nevertheless. We’ve been pushed so far backwards in such a short amount of time!

    Justice Kentaji Brown-Jackson took her seat on the Court today. She and her Sisters on the Bench have got a lot of work ahead of them. We in the voting public need to do our part to get them some help, and there’s nothing for it but to start cleaning up the mess.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Burt Likko says:

      The Supreme Court just announced it will hear a case on whether state courts can do anything to prevent state legislatures from enacting gerrymandered districts that contradict state law. The case has a good chance of leading to electoral college chaos and battles of “alternative electors” in 2024 if the Supreme Court rules for the North Carolina legislature.

      It is true that sometimes the Supreme Court can pull punches and hedge but this often ends up being the death of a thousand cuts. Roberts wanted to uphold the Mississippi law in Dobbs without overturning Roe or Casey. His decision would be the overturning Roe and Casey in effect though. There is something odious but honest about the reactionary 5 ripping off the band-aid. There is something more odious but honest about Thomas calling out Griswold and Lawrence and all other substantive due process decisions.

      Likewise, the Court basically gutted Chevron today without gutting Chevron. Biden received a narrow victory in the immigration case but it will go down to the same crazy pants judge who is all but certain to find a new way to enforce Trumpism.

      I will be honest but your post does not fill me with hope that non-reactionaries are getting how dire the situation on the court is. The court has been more often an upholder of reactionary privilege more than a force for progress. There are exceptions, a good chunk of which occurred in the 1950s to Obama era. Mainly during the heyday of the Warren Court which is still somewhat treated as the norm rather than the exception by many liberal law students. The Federalist Society and right-wing have decided that courts are just another avenue for the exercise and concentration of power. A lot of liberals refuse to see what might be needed to change this. A lot of liberals seem to have allergic reactions to exercising power strongly.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        I guess part of my despair is that I have no weapons, arguments, shields, tactics, or even ideas for what to say to unelected, unpersuadable mandarins who justify themselves with the reasoning “Because that’s what we felt like doing LOL what are you going to do about it? Nothing.”Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Burt Likko says:

          The action for abortion rights now is largely at the state level and Democrats plus Governor Baker are doing what they can to enshrine and expand abortion access plus counter the red-state craziness by ordering their respective governments to not comply.

          At this point, the only thing we can do is encourage people to see that the threats are very real and the best solution is to increase the Democratic majority in Congress. Congress then needs to expand or reform the court, enshrine Roe.

          The radical reactionaries are emboldened but that does not mean there is nothing we can do about it.

          However, if things continue this way, I think there very well could be another nullification crisis.Report

          • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            Any strategy that focuses on the federal government is going to fail, the same way Roe did. There isn’t even a path to it to begin with. What should be happening is a huge push to win the referendum in Kansas, and then have more referendums wherever possible. That and hone the same legal arguments that led to Kansas’ high court finding a right to an abortion in the Kansas constitution. I believe there is a similar situation (and precedent) in Montana. That is the way.Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

              State by State needs to happen but the reactionary six need a lesson and I do not think that federal action is necessarily doomed to failure.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

              I’ve seen people floating the idea of using federal facilities to lease to abortion providers.
              Not sure how the technical details would work out, but I like the approach.

              Part of our strategy has to be brinksmanship and doing something and daring them to do anything about it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Use your votes to get rid of the Hyde Amendment.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                No need for that either.
                The Hyde Amendment applies to federal funds, not private lessees.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So just lease it out. You wouldn’t even need to have a vote for that, I don’t think.

                Just have Biden do it with the stroke of a pen.

                And don’t make it permanent or anything.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Our anti-authoritarian says that the government should rise up against the law.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                As someone like Mitch McConnell would point out, it is perfectly legal and Constitutional.

                Nothing to see here, just an abortion clinic on every military base in America.

                If you don’t like it, vote harder.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You should look in the mirror at the guy who wants to use presidential authority through the military budget to oppose a SCOTUS ruling about domestic policy and see if he’s someone you want to be.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Oh, now you want to appeal to our mercy and sense of fair play.

                The fact is, even this, the most draconian and outrageous act imaginable by liberals, harms not one single conservative, doesn’t reduce your freedom by an iota.

                And yet you wail as if stabbed.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sure, yeah, nothing but conservatives wailing the past week.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Is giving the next Trump the ability “to use presidential authority through the military budget to oppose a SCOTUS ruling about domestic policy” really a good idea?

                Sooner or later we’ll get a Trump who isn’t demented. He’ll have whatever tools you give Biden.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It doesn’t matter.
                The next Trump will ignore any law or regulation or norm anyway.

                This is where we are at, that the Republican party is completely unconstrained by the traditional norms of American politics, to the point where they will eagerly assassinate the Vice President or whoever blocks their path to power.

                The institutional guardrails have collapsed.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The next Trump will ignore any law or regulation or norm anyway.

                This statement seems to be at odds with what actually happened. The law was one of the few restraints on Trump and/or his minions. It was not perfect nor perfectly effective but whatever.

                Again, that leaves you with handing a massive tool to future dictators which can easily be misused because you don’t like a SCOTUS ruling.

                Or put differently, you’re fine with a president-as-dictator when your team is in charge.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The guy who incited a violent mob to attack Congress in an attempt to overthrow an election…You see this guy as respecting the rule of law?

                When even Mitt Effing Romney views the Republicans as threats to democracy you should probably think long and hard about where we are at.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You see this guy as respecting the rule of law?

                I look at what he wanted to do throughout his Presidency and I look at what his minions actually did, and I see the only real restraint on him was the law even if he, personally, had zero respect for it.

                I wonder why you think fewer restraints is a good idea. Whatever you do becomes BSDI.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Keep in mind, we are talking about the President using his authority to grant more personal freedom to the people after a court stripped it away.

                Not inflicting any harm or even inconvenience on the citizens, just giving them more personal liberty over their bodies.

                No, I don’t think its ultimately a good idea if only because it is not good to always be circumventing Congress.

                But given the norm-shattering by the Republicans and lawless out of control SCOTUS, its is the least bad option available.

                I mean, unless we want to discuss the 2nd Amendment and what its intended for. But I’m firmly opposed to that.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Keep in mind, we are talking about the President using his authority to grant more personal freedom to the people after a court stripped it away.

                My cause is just, the other side are evil, and this tool will never be used in ways that I disapprove.

                But given the norm-shattering by the Republicans and lawless out of control SCOTUS,

                1) Roe was an a**pull.
                2) Calling getting rid of an a**pull “lawless out of control” means “doing things that I disagree with should be against the law”.

                its is the least bad option available.

                Giving the President the ability to overturn SCOTUS rulings is the “least bad” option? Seriously? Right after we got rid of Trump?

                How about winning some elections and making some changes to laws and/or state Constitutions?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                You’re establishing a double standard for the two parties, effectively asking the Deocrats to unilaterally disarm.
                For example, when Mitch McConnell holds a SCOTUS seat open for a year, well, that’s just good old fashioned hardball politics.

                If the Democrats add several new Justices, by God, that’s the end of the Republic!

                Both acts are perfectly legal and within their Constitutional authority. Actually, the filibuster appears nowhere in the Constitution but whatever.

                What we are facing is the Republicans, having already attempted a coup, are openly plotting the next one by overturning any vote they don’t like.

                Fidelity to hoary norms and institutional rules won’t save the Republic, but strong action just might.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Note:

                Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                When you propose a new tactic, the questions to ask are:
                1) Can the other side duplicate it?
                2) How much of a problem will this cause, both when we do it and when they do it?

                It is not “disarming” to think it may not be a good idea to recreate SCOTUS, either by court packing or by giving the Prez the ability to nerf it’s rulings.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                When you propose abiding by norms the questions to ask are:
                1. Will the other side also abide?
                2. Will this solve the problem facing us?

                The Republicans are openly talking about overturning votes they don’t like. We are in the middle of a slow moving Cold Civil War and should behave accordingly.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The Republicans are openly talking about overturning votes they don’t like. We are in the middle of a slow moving Cold Civil War and should behave accordingly.

                Yes, “overturning”. The other side hasn’t engaged in court packing and doesn’t propose too; nor are they suggesting dismantling the supreme court. Attempting to use the process to reverse a ruling they don’t like is our democratic process in action; It’s far away from what you’ve suggested.

                The core problem you’ve claimed you have is Team Red is dismantling democracy. If your proposed solution is to dismantle democracy, then you are your enemy.

                Will this solve the problem facing us?

                If it’s something that can trivially be undone by the next Presidential election then the answer should be “no”. If it’s something that both can be trivially undone and makes the problem worse by giving nastier tools to nasty people, then the answer should be a “heck no”.

                Unscrupulous people use unscrupulous tools in ways that are nastier than scrupulous people. That’s why we try to keep those sorts of things out of the hands of the gov, not because we can’t trust Joe Biden but because of everyone else who will be getting to use that tool.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I don’t see a difference between refusing to let a nominee come up for a vote, and Congress using its Constitutional powers to change the size of the Court.

                If your proposal is to just vote, you aren’t coping with a faction that is planning to nullify the vote.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I don’t see a difference between refusing to let a nominee come up for a vote, and Congress using its Constitutional powers to change the size of the Court

                The second hasn’t been done since we stopped needing to fight over slavery.

                The first is BSDI and it happens occasionally, or all the time for lesser judges. That’s why it’s called the Biden rule, Joe pointed out he was going to do it if he got the chance. (Open mouth, insert foot).

                There have been 37 unsuccessful nominations to the Supreme Court of the United States. Of these, 11 nominees were rejected in Senate roll-call votes, 11 were withdrawn by the president, and 15 lapsed at the end of a session of Congress.

                And that’s just Supremes. If we look at the non-Supreme judges then killing nominations this way is very common.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                So enlarging the Court is deeply rooted in our history and tradition, is what I’m hearing.

                For that matter, Congress also has the power to add states as needed to to gain power for one party or another. And has used this power at least twice if I recall.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think that calling for more states is *EXACTLY* what Democrats need to run on.

                Puerto Rico and Canada would turn the country Blue for three or four generations.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So enlarging the Court is deeply rooted in our history and tradition, is what I’m hearing.

                This is like saying civil war is. If you need to reach for the equiv of the federal gov making war on the states, then you really should be looking for something else and not trying to describe it as normal.

                Or at a min openly admitting you’re giving up on democracy and going all in on civil war.

                For that matter, Congress also has the power to add states as needed to to gain power for one party or another.

                To add power? No.

                To add territory by converting colonies into states? Yes.

                The U.S. has five permanently inhabited territories: Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands in the Caribbean Sea, Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands in the North Pacific Ocean, and American Samoa in the South Pacific Ocean.

                DC is out for various reasons (not a territory, was made separate from the states for political reasons and if we care about giving those people a vote then we can just make it part of the surrounding states).

                Puerto Rico is, by far, the closest to being a state. 10x the GDP of all of the others combined. 20x the population of the next largest. Guam has a population of 168k. The others are basically small cities.

                IMHO Puerto Rico will be a state within the next century…

                …and you probably should look for solutions to your political problems that don’t involve dismantling democracy.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                If your proposal is to just vote, you aren’t coping with a faction that is planning to nullify the vote.

                IMHO arresting and trying people for that is most certainly “coping”.Report

              • Koz in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You’re establishing a double standard for the two parties, effectively asking the Deocrats to unilaterally disarm.

                Then the Democrats should be unilaterally disarming then. On a practical level, what weapons do the Demos think they have that they haven’t mobilized yet? With President Biden’s appoval rating at 38%?

                Chip’s plan seems to be to rally all the Democrats to one or another procedurally radical scheme, and for whatever issues there are as to why such schemes might not work, ignore them. But at least all the Democrats are behind Chip’s latest brainstorm, right? Oh. That too.

                And then when these initiatives fall flat, I’m there will be more rounds of bullsiht and rationalization as to why Republicans are uniquely horrible so that justifies me doing whatever and why hasn’t the DOJ indicted Joe Manchin yet?

                Yes, actually you should unilaterally disarm.

                Instead of inflaming the alienations of aggrieved parties feeling butthurt because of whatever, libs should work towards dialing down those alienations instead. That way we could start to rebuild our stores of solidarity among Americans, and we wouldn’t have as many incidents where that guy shot up a parade in Highland Park, Illinois.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Chip has said that he doesn’t believe in limiting principles, and he thinks he’s in a life-or-death struggle, so of course he’s going to support dictatorial powers. That’s not even a choice between two evils; it’s his wheelhouse.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Couterpoint: a future non-demented Trump is going to do whatever he/she wants to do.

                (Shoot, just saw Chip made the same comment.)Report

        • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

          Even if you don’t agree with the majority opinions, you have to admit they’re presenting coherent arguments. I mean, even people on the left admit that Roe was a sloppy decision. Unfortunately they prioritize results over reasoning. It’s tempting to look upon Dobbs as an IQ test that three justices failed, but that’s assuming a “law + case + reasoning = results” model.Report

  7. Marchmaine says:

    Can’t help shaking the feeling that the summer ’22 session we be remembered as the ‘back to school’ session where the court ended the 20-year (30? 40?) hiatus of the Legislative branch’s abdication of responsibility in favor of Fundraising, Posturing and dereliction of duty. So far response has been sophomoric (if not outright toddler) levels of whining.

    Nuke the filibuster if you must, but legislate you will.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine says:

      The Republican Party laughs at your suggestion.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Says the impotent party with all the branches of government.

        The Court is basically saying: this filibuster thing that’s purely a figment of parliamentary procedure and false pretenses? Yeah, you don’t get to hide behind it anymore. Any of youse. Now piss off or we will neuter another pretense.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine says:

          We don’t have the ability to overcome the Republicans but we do have the ability to call their nonsense what it is.

          When they have the power of gerrymandering to nullify the people, they do.
          When they have the executive position, they overrule the legislature.
          When they have the legislature but not the executive, they overrule the executive.
          When they have the state but not the federal they cry out for federalism. When they have the federal but not the state they champion morality or freedom or whatever fig leaf they can grab.

          They are authoritarians, drunk on power.Report

          • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            We have plenty of ability to overcome the Republicans. Plenty of people have laid out the strategy to do it. The defeatism floating around here is straight up insane.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

              No I am hopeful that we can muster enough votes to overcome their power.

              But it won’t be quick or easy, and the SCOTUS isn’t going to change anytime soon so we need to be prepared for a long hard fight.

              Part of the “hard fight” is not accepting their nonsense as good faith highly principled stances because they aren’t.

              ETA: Up until I heard that SCOTUS has accepted the Moore case, I was against expanding the court.
              Today I’m thinking that might be our last best chance.Report

            • Douglas Hayden in reply to InMD says:

              Because realistic solutions doesn’t drive ratings and engagement nearly as much as feeding the amygdala. And guess what’s driving fundraising.

              I may just have to write up and submit that “Nation Of Vibes” article I’ve been ruminating over.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            We’re so passive aggressive that we’d rather talk about the other party’s failings than legislate.

            I’ll call the Dem’s bluff… Dems won’t legislate because the party doesn’t support what the Dem pols would legislate. You’re afraid of legislating because it comes with compromise and positions that will be partial successes and maybe even opens the door to successful legislation by other factions. Better to regulate without consequence. Legislating is the end of the Democratic party as it exists. Long live the Democratic party.

            Legislate EPA authority … with clear statements of goals and objectives. No bullshit ‘authoritarians’ are standing in your way. But you might find that the steps towards climate change policies come with trade-offs. I bet lots of money flows *out* of Climate Dems coffers.

            Legislate some sort of Abortion regime… but it won’t be what activists are demanding… it’ll be a short window, doctor’s approvals and bureaucratic oversight. So do it.

            Yes your laws won’t stand unless you make good ones that can withstand electoral scrutiny over 2-3 cycles. Why in the world would you presume they ought to? Most laws are really kinda shitty laws… they need reversing and re-writing.

            So write some shitty laws and defend them against Republican attempts to repeal them. Worked for the ACA. Shitty and still here. So start there and for the love of all that is good, stop whining.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            When they have the trifecta, they fail to overturn Obamacare. When they have the SCOTUS, they turn abortion over to the states. When they gerrymander, their districts look as silly as the ones the Democrats gerrymander in their states.Report

  8. Jaybird says:

    The problem, seems to me, is that the game is iterated.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

      My point isn’t that it is *not* iterated… its that the SCOTUS is putting things that were not being iterated on back in iteration.

      SCOTUS is iterating because the iteration game is broken, and, ironically, the game *needs* iteration.

      Iteration isn’t the flaw in the game theory, it is the game theory.Report

      • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

        I love this. It’s like the distinction between a friendly game of punch buggy and two kids sullenly curled up in their respective corners afraid to take a hit.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

        Well, after 30 years of conservatives complaining about a captured supreme court, they’ve now captured the supreme court.

        And the liberals get to yell about legislation from the bench.

        Wait. Maybe it’s the lack thereof.

        In any case, the druids are doing judicial review and maybe it’s time to get rid of that sort of thing.Report