Socialism is Anti-Choice and Anti-Life
At some point back in the mists of time, like a month ago or whenever, we were talking about everyone’s fave subject ever, abortion.
I’ve already waxed poetic on my kinda sorta pro-choice-I-guess-but-I-don’t-love-it opinion on this subject1 here: The Tomiknockers – Ordinary Times (ordinary-times.com) But today I’d like to address one of the more common criticisms of the pro-life movement – that they’re not “pro-life”, but “pro-birth”. According to this concept, pro-life people only care about babies till they’re born, and then they don’t care what happens to them, because they tend to be Republicans, and those big fat meanie pants failed to sign off on every item on the Democrats’ social spending wish list.
Ordinary Times recently ran an article to this effect, written by Birch Smith: The Pro-Life Movement Must Embrace Continuing Moral and Practical Obligations – Ordinary Times (ordinary-times.com)
This is an argument that has always confused me, even when I was pro-choice without qualms. Does social spending equal LIFE? Really? How, exactly, does a pittance of money with all the wrong strings attached to it, promote life? Is desiring a reduction in inefficient, ineffective government programs really the equivalent of wishing death onto people?
After reviewing the results of these social programs, I’m very far from convinced any of that is the case. And issuing a blanket ultimatum, demanding that your political opponent either agree with everything on your personal agenda, without question, without pushback, no matter how stupid or misguided your suggestions may be, or else they literally want people to DIE, is not an argument, it’s emotional manipulation. Encountering this mindset is like negotiating with a terrorist. One may as well be dealing with Hans Gruber, as a leftist who thinks of a new way to spend taxpayers’ money. Remember how everyone thought he was politically motivated, all principled and stuff, when really he was just a thief?
This line of argument is dirty, and it’s not the American way. To demand that American voters sign on with every element of the most leftiest left of agendas, regardless of outcome, regardless of cost (both in terms of money and of human suffering), to demand that elected representatives agree to every piece of pork thrown into the trough, or else they want people to literally die is not only uncharitable, it’s simply untrue. I have never encountered a single person anywhere on the political spectrum who wanted poor people to suffer and children to experience deprivation. Maybe you don’t know any conservatives other than Twitterbots with 27 followers who get paid to stir the pot, but in my experience conservatives have as much if not significantly more interest in helping the poor as the most bleeding heart liberal. I’ve repeatedly witnessed conservatives bending over backwards to help families get and stay on their feet – on a personal level, not just signing a check over to the IRS. They simply have a different set of solutions other than more disinterested social workers shuffling papers around a desk and a few extra bucks on an EBT card.
Just because someone doesn’t agree to expanding government programs in every arena all the time, does not make them bad, awful, evil, fascist, fetus-loving baby-haters. Saying so is lying, and resorting to a “you beat your wife, don’t you Sir” type of argument. In reality, conservatives often reject liberal big-government solutions to poverty because they suck. A sucky solution is oftentimes worse than no solution, since sucky solutions often compound the very problem they were created to solve.
If you look at the track record of government programs to help poor families, we’ve seen trillions of dollars thrown at the problem in America since LBJ started the War on Poverty in 1964. More than $16 trillion dollars, to be exact. Yet poverty rates haven’t improved much at all. In 2014, fifty years after the War on Poverty, despite being surrounded by largesse that would make a Rockefeller blush, nearly 22% of children lived in poverty. In 1964, it was 23%. Over $16 trillion for about a 1% return on the investment. War on Poverty at 50 — Despite Trillions Spent, Poverty Won | Cato Institute
What’s that they say about throwing good money after bad? Oh yeah, to not to. I understand that some of you suffer from the Gambler’s Paradox – imagining that this time it will be different, this time, your social spending will pay off big time – but I don’t, and I don’t have to support those who would continue to plunge taxpayer money into a roulette wheel hoping against hope that this time they’ll get three cherries instead of three baggies of meth.
Despite being inundated with coronavirus relief funds, a recent visit to Nearest Big City (I mean, pretty much any of them, pick your poison, but this one was Seattle) certainly seemed to indicate things getting WORSE with the application of copious money, with tent cities and shantytowns of dilapidated RVs cluttering every vacant lot, and literal tons of garbage strewn around what was, just a few years ago, an absolutely breathtaking city in a decidedly liberal state (Washington hasn’t had a Republican governor since 1985, and Seattle hasn’t had a Republican mayor since 1969.) If money were the answer, if launching a spate of new government programs was the answer, surely money and the already existing programs we’ve had for decades, both on the national and local levels, would mean things were on the upswing in the poverty department. Instead we’re seeing the creation of a permanent underclass, a veritable army of miserable people living in the streets, and yet you’re telling me that still more money will fix the problem? Brings to mind the definition of insanity, and all that.
Claims that the solution to American decline is more money, more money, more programs, and more money, ring hollow at this point. It hasn’t worked, dudes! How about justifying the programs which already exist, earning my support by showing me the stellar results that they’ve yielded thus far BEFORE asking for more? Because from my view here in the cheap seats, it appears that those programs not only failed spectacularly, but they also unleashed a tsunami of unintended consequences. Turning over an unbelievable fortune into the hands of disinterested bureaucrats to shuffle about as they will has had devastating effects on the social fabric, encouraged absolutely gross levels of corruption, and led to a wider gulf between rich and poor than ever before. The “I don’t care about outcomes, I paid my taxes, not my problem, hand me my phone wouldya so I can tweet about UBI” mindset that embodies Democrat policies on social spending has created mindboggling amounts of human despair – and deaths from that despair have never been higher, a trend that was well underway long before the Covid lockdowns.
Suggesting that the solution to the utter failure of the War on Poverty is that poor people be aborted rather than than born – because that IS the implication, isn’t it, that if conservatives don’t sign off on every liberal dream and socialist scheme, that they no longer have the moral standing to prevent babies from being aborted, too bad for them! – rather than at least consider a different approach to solving the poverty problem is vile. It’s positively obscene, and it’s a tacit admission that Democrats know full well their social programs solve nothing, help no one, create nothing but a morass of dependency from which few escape, so why not just kill your baby and make it a little easier on ‘em, would ya?2
A whole lot of people simply do not agree that throwing even more money into the gaping maw of bureaucracy, making jobs for a bunch more overeducated middle managers who do nothing of substance in exchange for a hefty paycheck every month, is in any way beneficial to children, the poor, or basically anyone other than the grifters who now run this country. Because that’s what it is, a grift. Liberal social programs are a money transfer from people who actually do the heavy lifting of making America work, into the pockets of the useless class – and by useless class, I do NOT mean poor people, but those so-smart leeches in the employ of Big Mama Government. Not all government employees are leeches, but some of them certainly are, and I think we’ve given them enough of our blood already.
There are many other ways to help poor families in America aside from the pro-corporate-pseudo-socialism Democrats peddle. Creating opportunities. Removing stumbling blocks like overbearing licensing laws that prevent people from starting their own businesses. Removing the burden of ridiculous edicts that help corporations, since they’re the only ones who can afford to comply, at the expense of their smaller competitors, stifling competition, driving up prices, and eliminating the jobs that small business creates. Simplifying American law so we don’t have to continue paying an army of lawyers to interpret the rule book. Getting rid of onerous child care regulations that grossly inflate the cost of child care and put it of reach of many poor families, keeping women at home when some would prefer to be in the workplace…or worse still, forcing them to leave their small kids in dangerous situations while they work. Enough screwing with the energy supply to please Greta Thunberg and her corporate masters who have invested billions in “green energy” that isn’t green in any way other than the amount of money it sends into the pockets of the already-rich. And hey, here’s a crazy thought – stop having extended shutdowns that caused a third of small businesses and over 40% of black-owned businesses to go under permanently while big business survived relatively unscathed. Gas prices, food costs, medical care, housing, higher education – all arenas of commerce in which the government has involved itself extensively, driving up the cost of living and hurting poor families disproportionally.
Honestly, the best thing the government could do for the poor is to quit meddling in every aspect of everything all the time (except for maybe, you know, the stuff in their job description like stopping riots that burned several small businesses to the ground and caused many others to close permanently). Because they suck at it. Government is simply terrible at running things, failing at even their most basic purposes. They take forever to fill a pothole, they can’t even plow the streets in the winter, 36 million people cannot read well enough to hold a job, they shove people with coronavirus into old folks’ homes, and yet you’re telling me we need MORE government ineptitude?
Leftists claim to care about families and children and small adorable babies. Like, so so much, way more than conservatives, I am told, and the proof is not their outcomes in any arena ever, but because they like to throw money at bureaucrats!!! They care about small adorable babies so much, I am told that they elected Joe Biden to the presidency, because he is a Democrat, and Democrats will make a lot of super awesome government programs that will absolutely totally completely superduperly, protect Americans from bad things happening, ever. No bad things will ever happen as long as we have enough government programs!!!
You know, government programs like the FDA, which back in February (after first allegedly ignoring reported problems for months) closed down a baby formula plant that made a real whole lot of the formula in the US, particularly for special needs infants. Now why, you may ask, FDA aside, since it IS their job to close down potentially germ-infested factories and we can hardly fault them for that (although that delay before investigating is not a good look, nor is the fact that they didn’t discover these problems in the first place, and were only investigating a whistleblower’s accounts – so what exactly are all these government agencies administrating, if they don’t prevent or even find problems??), should such a huge percentage of America’s baby formula come from just ONE factory?
The uberiberal wunderkinds at NPR wondered that too, and even their nanny-state-loving brain trust had to conclude it was due to massive amounts of government money directed at the WIC program, regulatory barriers, and stiff tariffs that had stifled competition, leaving that white gold in the hands of just three companies. Not-exactly-conservative-themselves CNN joined the pile-on, explaining how government regulations mean that bringing new formula to the market is a multimillion dollar proposition that requires the better part of a decade if not longer, enabling corporations to face little to no competition. But hey, the wonks have deemed this ridiculous, convoluted system that created a choke point in formula production “highly cost-effective” – at least for the government’s pocketbook, if not for parents who are desperately searching Facebook Marketplace looking for a can of formula at black market prices right now.
Against this backdrop of hungry babies and desperate parents, you’re gonna come at me with “conservatives don’t care about kids because they don’t let the government run everything”? Really? Well hey, geniuses, look what happens when you put the government in charge. Babies HAVE NO FORMULA. This is what even the best-intentioned central planning gets you – empty store shelves. Conservatives know this, which is why we hate big government and economic micromanagement. It’s because we LIKE babies, children, families, and poor people, and we don’t want them to suffer because Paperfiler Q. Desksitter doesn’t have the faintest clue about how to run the world.
Wait, what? Conservatives like poor people? I can hear you now decrying that statement as a lie, because after all, despite corporate interests inundating the Democratic Party with money, despite corporations including the superevil Goldman Sachs paying Hillary Clinton at least 22 million dollars in speaking fees and the Obamas getting $50 mil from their Netflix deal and $65 million from Penguin-Random House, somehow it’s those evil Republicans and their tawdry relationship with Goya Beans and that pillow dude that is the real problem. And I mean hey, Democrats, it’s America, make your money, but don’t pretend you’re a friend of the little guy while hiding that bag with a giant $ on it.
A good many poor people actually ARE conservative. Look back upon those thinkpieces the liberal genius class wrote back in 2016 musing on “hmm why do these mysterious creatures known as the lower classes continue to vote Republican against their ‘interests’,” in case you have forgotten. Well, it’s because no matter what false and sparkling promises are made by leftist demagogues, those of us who are monetarily-challenged have more real world life experience in our collective pinky fingers (albeit rendered gnarled and arthritic by working for The Man) than the entire student body of Berkeley has in their entire Great Leap Forwards. Thus we know that putting elitists in charge of anything actually important – like, ya know, food – invariably ends in disaster. Our ‘interests’ lie in the direction of having adequate baby formula on store shelves, and we know that the hive mind of the free market is way better at doing that than workers at the DMV.
The biggest reason by far why I’m a conservative is because I am poor, because we have struggled, and it’s been tough at times, yet we kept on keeping on. Things got better, and it wasn’t because of anything that government, huge corporations like the ones presently soaking us for gas money and medical bills, or big money charities full of corruption, ever did. It was because of what WE did, what our families did, what our friends and neighbors and coworkers and a church that we did not even attend did, and even, as crazy as it sounds to the tankies in the crowd, because of what our employers did. It was the people who knew us and for some unknown reason, loved us, and not a social worker whom we did not even know, who supported us when we needed a little extra help. The stuff those other entities – government and corporate interests most particularly – did to us and to the nation as a whole has, with very few exceptions, made our meager successes harder to come by, not easier.
I want other poor people to succeed beyond their wildest dreams. I want people like me – the people who aren’t the scum of the earth but the salt, the working poor, who ask for nothing but a fair shake, to be able to achieve the American dream, and I want it to come easier to them than it did for us. I want all American families to be successful both now and into future generations. And I know 100% without a doubt that liberals don’t have any answers beyond “more money, more programs, more failure, pls terminate your pregnancy to keep this Ship of Fools afloat.”
Conservatives want every person in this great country of ours – even the smallest ones – to have every opportunity to be the best them that they can be. You know what doesn’t help accomplish that? Shoveling money into a stupid, greedy, corrupt, surely-one-formula-factory-will-be-more-than-enough, flirtin-with-socialist-yet-totally-pro-corporate bureaucracy that has driven America into life-ruining levels of inflation and food shortages, taking food from the mouth of babes, literally.
In 2022. Freakin’ food shortages. It’s crazy. Children are in the hospital right now, getting feeding tubes put in, dehydrated because they can’t get the only type of baby formula they can tolerate. So please remind me, who exactly is pro-life again? Because the way I see it, there’s one pro-life party and then there’s the Starvation League.
Trust us, they say, we’ll give you these vouchers you can redeem at your nearest Food Distribution Center for a can of Deprivation Good Start, since that is the corporate entity with which the Starvation League has signed a contract. Oh no, they’re out of Deprivation Good Start? Hmmm. Welp, we’ll get back to you in 10-12 weeks with some sort of solution. At least within six months!! Probably! In the meantime, here is a compilation clip featuring one White House Press Secretary lying about the situation and blaming it on consumers, another White House Press Secretary laughing at the very question, and the President bitching about how irritating it is that something as stupid as baby formula is on the front page of every newspaper. LOLZZZZ, of COURSE government employees care just as much about your baby as you do! To prove it, we’re not going to be having the press at any more of our baby formula meetings, and we can do that because we’re the government and we are answerable to no one. If you don’t like it, well, I guess you should have gotten an abortion. It sure would have made MY day easier. Now quiet, the elites are talking about Trans Visibility Day!! So stunning, so brave!!
The absolute best thing that we could do for poor families with small children right now is get the bureaucrats out of the way, reduce the government interference that is smothering the free market, quit funneling money into the pockets of a handful of favored corporations, stop shutting down factories and indeed, entire economies, in the name of a dubious approach to “public safety” that causes more long term harm than short term good. Get Joe Biden and his army of lawyers and middle managers and ivory tower theoreticians out of the way and allow the people who are good at manufacturing and transporting products to consumers, to do it. They can get these issues with the supply chain worked out before it’s more than just babies who are going hungry.
A relatively free market has more than quadrupled the number of breweries in America in the past ten years – to a whopping 9,247 in 2021, an industry growing despite coronavirus – while government contracts via WIC ensured we have just TWO companies making 80% of all the formula required for America’s cutest citizens.
And there is a LOT of regulation on beer, just sayin. But what there wasn’t, was a government program shunting massive amounts of money to three favored corporations at the expense of a free marketplace.
Baby formula is simply the canary in a coal mine. The effects of government interference in the marketplace run broad and deep. If not for the near-stranglehold big government and the corporations that love it have on the American economy, it is very likely we’d be booming right now instead of recession-ing. In a stronger economy, families could provide for themselves, not living month to month on the government dole, but by building real security in a stable career, and maybe even some savings – the type of security that can let us ride out troubled times. And for those who don’t have that security, there are, and always have been, many other options for assistance other than some bored pencil-pusher throwing money around while society rots. Heck, I’d be happy to see the already existing programs stick around as a safety net. (Maybe not WIC tho, at least not without some serious reforms in the formula department.) By all means. Keep em. It’s the 10,000 new ones y’all are suggesting that don’t make no damn sense. Because I’ve seen this movie before, and the Law of Unintended Consequences always wins in the end.
Hang up that old saw that Republicans aren’t “pro-life” at all, but “pro-birth”. Because relying on government programs and self-interested bureaucrats to meet basic human needs is far from pro-life. Ironically, it’s not exactly pro-choice, either.
- There’s been at least one member of the commentariat who claimed that I “turned conservative” because I was pro-life. That simply isn’t true, although I did rethink my opinion about abortion when the small and squalling creature I brought into being through personal carelessness and poor medical advice, a creature whom I’d been informed by my fellow at-that-time liberal chums was an inconvenience, would undoubtedly have a miserable life and never be a contributing member of society, and was nothing but a “clump of cells,” turned out to be a fully delightful human being who changed my life in every way for the better.
But just to set the record straight, keeping my baby instead of aborting him isn’t what turned me conservative. I “turned conservative” because liberals have betrayed every principle they ever had in the name of political expediency, leaving me standing there saying “wut” with a blank look on my face, still thinking that this is all just a misunderstanding that is sure to be rectified soon. I’ll probably still be standing here in my profound befuddlement, saying “wut” over and over again, till I’m dragged away to the re-education camp.
- If this sounds harsh or unfair to you, keep in mind that it has been socially acceptable for decades to call pro-life people “pro-birth, but anti-life”, implying or even stating outright conservatives want people to die in the streets as long as babies are born. So I really don’t think that pointing out the greater implication being “pro-choice because anti-baby, those things are expensive, and they’ll probably have shitty lives anyway, no great loss” is in any way out of line or in violation of any not-already-completely-shattered norms of kindness or civility. And it’s a lot closer to the mark.
My only complaint is that you used the word “pinky”, which will throw me off when I do a comment search. Otherwise, excellent.Report
If only there were cities, or counties, or even entire states where this radical theory of, how do you call it, “conservatism” could be put into practice and tested!
If only the empirical effects of tax and regulatory cuts could be quantified and studied!Report
Hyperbole is the enemy of a good argument and i have no idea socialism is even doing here. Criticize libs, through there is plenty of strawman and weakman arguments here, but we’re not socialists. Criticizing the often dim tone of our debates but calling others anti life is ironic.
Actually i know you can find a lot of libs, like me, who like to cut a bunch of harmful regs, crony capitalism and far more efficiently deliver services.
This kind of thing “And I know 100% without a doubt that liberals don’t have any answers beyond “more money, more programs, more failure, pls terminate your pregnancy to keep this Ship of Fools afloat.”
Is just same old poo throwing that you seem to not want. Cause i’ve never met a lib who said. “This program is terrible, lets give it more money because i like failing.” There are plenty of debates about what works and what doesn’t and if you think conservatives are always right and libs always wrong then that is partisanship.Report
“According to this concept, pro-life people only care about babies till they’re born, and then they don’t care what happens to them, because they tend to be Republicans, and those big fat meanie pants failed to sign off on every item on the Democrats’ social spending wish list.”
Is certainly a rock-solid good faith reading of the the criticism, yeah.Report
Being the libertarian I am, for me it’s not about the lack of welfare spending, it’s the failure of reason. Conservatives are OK with kids not being able to drink, or smoke, or buy guns under the age of 18/21, but they can be parents?
Conservatives very often resist easy to get and/or free birth control (because poor people can’t afford the time off for a Dr. visit, or the cost of the visit, or the drugs themselves), but are OK with poor people being parents.
Conservatives don’t seem too inclined to restrict the rights of a birth mother with regards to adoption* (as I am sure you know, a large disincentive to adopting a child is the ability of the birth mother to change her mind, it certainly turned my wife & I off from it). Same goes for foster kids of abusive or neglectful parents.
Conservatives aren’t very interested in making sure fathers are paying their fair share*.
Conservatives don’t seem interested in making sure that pre- & post-natal care of the mother & child are covered by insurance* or medicaid**.
*Not that they necessarily want adoption to be harder, or deadbeat dads to skate, or for new moms to have ruinous medical bills, but it’s not really a priority for them they way abortion is.
**I think medicaid covers some of it, but I’m not sure how much.Report
Conservatives are also in favor of tax and free trade/export policies that lead to 4 corporations manufacturing 90% of the baby formula in America being made by 4 companies.
Conservatives are not in favor of the FDA regulating those plants however.Report
Given that trump increased tariffs on baby formula, I’m not sure I’d describe the Republican position as “free trade”.Report
I find it infuriating that an avowed libertarian is advocating that the state be allowed, indeed forced, to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.Report
I don’t think that going in and doing tubal ligations to be reversible upon demonstration of a sufficient GPA is the answer, though.Report
what are you even talking about?Report
Oh, I assumed that you supported Policy X because you disagreed with Proposition P and was disagreeing with your support of Policy X.
(I suppose to give the full effect, I should have judged you as morally inferior due to your support of Policy X…)Report
My firm belief is that birth control and abortion decisions should be between a woman and her doctor. She should be free to involve her partner or not. The state – whether federal or local – has no business in that decision.
And I remain flummoxed that libertarians are so in support of eliminating that choice.Report
Eh, I’m not flummoxed by it.
It has to do with assumptions about the moral status of the clump of cells.
If you believe that said clump has a moral status equal to that of, say, a Mexican, it becomes a little more understandable for some people to argue that no human is illegal and they should be allowed to cross the border.Report
so fetus = person = has more rights then its mom?
Interesting position. Tell me, what’s the equivalent for men?Report
Honestly don’t know why y’all engage him at all on this culture war stuff. It’s quite clear he’s not arguing in good faith.Report
Sometimes I do it because I want a good laugh. Other times I do it because I want to make sure his bad faith and illogic are recorded for posterity. Very occasionally I do it because the words he strings together don’t actually make any sense and I genuinely need more words.Report
I believe a famous French philosopher had a good quote about those who argue and delight in bad faith.Report
so fetus = person = has more rights then its mom
I wouldn’t argue that. I’d more argue that the clump of cells has a moral status equivalent to, say, a person. Not, like, a citizen but, like, a foreigner.
I think the argument isn’t that “they have more rights than women!” it’s that “you invited them into the country, you should let them cross the border”.
Yes, yes. “What about rapeincestthemotherslifeindanger” is a good counter-argument to make.
But jumping from rapeincestthemotherslifeindanger to “therefore sex-selection abortions are okay” is a jump.
Tell me, what’s the equivalent for men?
I think the argument is that if it’s not okay to abort females, it’s not okay to abort males either.Report
At this point even I have to wonder what in the fish you’re even talking about.Report
Okay, this one can be confusing:
1) It’s possible to see the clump of cells as having moral worth in and of itself
2) With this assumption, terminating the life contained in this clump of cells deliberately is, itself, a moral act. But, like, in the bad way.
3) But, you may say, how can the clump of cells have moral value
4) The people who think that it does think that the clump of cells is, like, a person
5) There are tons of examples of persons who are not seen as having the equivalent moral value to, like, real people. They include minorities and foreigners.
Seriously, the left used to have debates about abortion. As recently as the 90’s. Jesse Jackson famously noted that a lot of the discussions about the moral status of the fetus mirrored discussions of slaves.Report
What’s confusing here?
This is the basic bog-standard American Evangelical/ Roman Catholic argument that has been made for 50 years now.
You have a moral sense of the value of a fetus. So do I.
You have a moral sense of smoking marijuana. So do I.
You have a moral sense of circumcision. So do I.
How does a free and democratic society resolve these various moral positions?Report
The first thing I’d suggest is a shared moral language.
Because talking about this as if we not only don’t see the clump of cells as being more than a skin tag but we cannot see how someone else could possibly see it as anything *BUT* that could lead us to a place where the Supreme Court rules that Texas can have a law banning abortion and we will have no idea what to do with that situation except threaten violence.Report
Considering that violence in the abortion debate in the US post-Roe has only been committed by the side supporting that texas law …Report
That’s not true. There have been attacks on “crisis pregnancy centers”, for example.
Did you not know that?Report
No I didn’t.
According to Google the incidents all seem to have occurred within the last month or so. They were all focused on property damage – eg fire bombing empty clinics and vandalism.
“Pro-life” violence has killed people. Over several decades. One of these things is still not like the other.Report
And, according to the pro-lifers, abortions are, themselves, violence that result in the loss of a human life.
Now, I know that *YOU* don’t believe that.
But, seriously, they do stuff like quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Did you know that Bonhoeffer was executed for trying to kill Hitler? Like, the real Hitler back in the 1940’s during WWII?
He’s considered a “great” theologian, even.Report
Bonhoeffer was executed after a show trial with no additional evidence other then his being part of the German Intelligence ABWHER – from which a plot did indeed hatch to kill Hitler. He was never actually accused of being part of the plot or of having done anything. Just being in a group.
Can you imagine being hanged naked for being part of a pro-marijuana group? That’s what happened to him.
And while he clearly opposed abortion on a theological basis, he never advocated for, nor likely would have supported violence to prevent it.Report
I admit to never before encountering the argument that Bonhoeffer was innocent.
In any case, among the more radical of the “so-called” pro-lifers, they believe that he was guilty. And, get this, they think that it’s *GOOD* that he was (allegedly) guilty.Report
Heh, next up: Maximilian Kolbe taking the easy way out.Report
Well you’re just restating the problem.
How does a free and democratic society develop a shared moral language?
For the sake of argument, assume the moral language to be shared is something you find objectionable.Report
How does a free and democratic society develop a shared moral language?
After the fact? I don’t know that there’s a way to do that.
But, if there is, a starting point is to notice that you don’t have one. (Maybe we could explore whether we ever did, of course. Maybe we could look and see if anything like that even exists anywhere on the planet. If it does, see if it exists in multiple places. If it does, maybe see what those multiple places have in common with each other on a macro level.)
For the sake of argument, assume the moral language to be shared is something you find objectionable.
Finding it objectionable is a start, I guess. (It’s better than finding it incomprehensible that someone has a language that isn’t mine.)
Now, I’d want to point out, that I’m not (necessarily) pushing for agreeing on the *ANSWERS* to the moral problems.
At this point I’m pushing for a common syntax and vocabulary.Report
So is “Unborn baby” the correct vocabulary, or is it “fetus”‽Report
I was deliberately using the term “clump of cells” above, Chip.Report
You have a moral sense of slavery. So do I.Report
“Tell me, what’s the equivalent for men?”
That’s only a stumbling block if you assume that men and women are identical in sexual function. They’re not, and no law or policy that insists that they are is going to mesh with reality.Report
I assume women and men are equivalent before the law in terms of their rights in a secular society. Sexual function has nothing to do with that.Report
Please square this with the phrase “my money, my rules”. I’m totally cool with you doing what ever you want with your money. You take my money or other people’s money, and want to do that, nope. I/we get input on how you spend other people’s money.Report
I’m not suggesting that your money or anyone else’s money needs to be involved. I believe its the woman’s choice whether to be pregnant. She gets to decide, and certain ly can and even should consult her doctor and her partner if she has one. But she has to bear the medical risk and a substantial portion of the financial burden for the kid.
So I guess “Her money – her choice.”Report
Not if public money is used/partially used to fund her medical care, her pregnancy termination, or any other ancillary costs associated with either. Then it becomes a public policy debate on how to use public funds.
“The state – whether federal or local – has no business in that decision.” Except if they received subsided medical care right?Report
Nope. If a woman is receiving subsidized medical care she and her doctor get to make her decisions.
Unless you want real life death panels created . . . .Report
Interesting how the recipients are the only people who can make decisions on how to spend other peoples money…ie there’s no possible way to control costs. Do you carry that thread to the point of saying that the gov’t should just out and confiscate some peoples property because other people need medical care? Tell me where you draw the line.Report
This is an echo of my comment about how libertarians struggle with the Third Actor Agency problem.
Where two agents ask a third party to perform valuable services like police protection or adjudication or whatever in exchange for payment.
The third party inevitably has agency, and develops an agenda which may be contrary to the two original actors.
Like, the state intercedes in between a buyer and seller of unpasteurized milk and refuses to allow the transaction to go forward.
The question isn’t really “Can the third party intercede?” because yeah, it certainly can always do this, and always has the power to simply refuse to engage in the first place.
The question for us as citizens is “Do we want it to intercede here or there?”
The reason libertarians struggle with this is that most often, their desired agenda for the third party is not what the majority wants, and so they are left being forced to accept intercessions they don’t prefer.Report
Big props to every petty dictator and HOA big boss out there. Way to give them all power. Strong move for freedom.Report
Libertarians restricting other people’s liberty – gotta love it I guess.Report
“so fetus = person = has more rights then its mom?”
Why does mom have more rights than the fetus?
No, no. No! Don’t do that thing where you sputter and fume and babble “I don’t…I can’t…what you…don’t how…” and affect a shocked incomprehension and call me a bastard for even asking you this and try to make the argument be “your a awful persin”. Answer the question. Why does the mother have more rights than the fetus?
“Well but how can you believe” no! we aren’t talking about me! We’re talking about you! You very clearly believe that the mother has more rights than the fetus. Why do you believe that?
“But you don’t how don’t you how you believe that you don’t you don’t how” This is not about me, this is about you. This is about whether you have the capability to act like an actual adult human being with a functioning brain, whether you have the ability to back up anything you say you believe; or whether it’s just reflexive own-the-cons socially-conditioned defiance.Report
The woman in question is a fully formed human being. The fetus, until a certain point in its gestation, isn’t and can’t survive without her. She has the right, until that point, to not be pregnant.
Anything else you’d like to know?Report
Would you really draw the line at viability?Report
If a line needs to be drawn, yes. After viability – under the wildly divergent legal schema we have now, the percentage of abortions drops off dramatically. Which is one of the reasons that I detest all the rhetoric around Partial Birth and Third Trimester abortion. Those procedures are only ever done out of medical necessity. And yet the have become the boogey men of the pro-forced birth movement.
https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/
But again, this is a decision the state, in a secular nation like the US, has no business being a part of. This is a decision between a woman, her doctor, and her God.Report
You just said that the fetus isn’t a human being until a certain point in its gestation. Now, either you brought that up as a dodge, or you meant it. If you meant it, you accept that a fetus is a human being beyond viability, which means it can no longer be a decision between the woman, her doctor, and her God.
You also haven’t demonstrated why viability grants personhood.Report
I accept two things – first only 1% of abortions occur after viability, and generally only for medical reasons. So prohibitions on abortion after viability are a red herring. And even then, if an abortion is considered its between a woman, her doctor and her God.
Second I accept that a a fetus isn’t a person until viability. Biology tells me so. Hell the Old Testament tells me so.Report
I can’t tell if you’re giving yourself wiggle room or you don’t see the contradiction. When you say that a fetus isn’t a person until viability, are you saying that a fetus is a person upon viability? And therefore wouldn’t an action that ends a person’s life be a matter for the state?
Also, if viability is a red herring because only 1% of all abortions occur after viability, is it also true that rape and incest exceptions are red herrings because they account for 1% of all abortions? Far less than 1% of all students will be shot at school – are school shootings a red herring?Report
If 99% of abortions occur in the first trimester, then trying to ban abortions to prevent the 1% that occur after viability is a red herring – especially since those abortions are medically necessary (or so the link I posted outlines). Women in the US aren’t indiscriminately killing their fetuses after viability. They are making really, really emotionally fraught decisions about their potential children. They are doing so in a medical setting, often after exhausting other alternatives. The state has no business in that decision.
Rape and incest exceptions are not red herrings because, again, those abortions occur in the first trimester.
You already know my position on school shootings, gun violence and gun ownership.Report
OK, this is more a comment to the audience – I think I’ve sufficiently demonstrated the contradictions in Philip’s reasoning. I’m not trying to go out on a mic drop, but I just don’t see any point in continuing this.Report
It’s always easier when you grade your own papers.Report
The fetus is a person when the fetus can survive outside of the mother. The fetus has a right to live that supersedes the mothers right to abort when removing the fetus from the mother does not represent a serious risk to the life of the fetus or the mother.
Just to clarify, I am not saying that an exceptionally healthy fetus can be safely removed and survive outside the mother, and I am not saying a statistically average fetus can be safely removed and survive outside of the mother.
I am saying that the fetus being medically evaluated in any specific case, can be safely separated from the mother and survive in a NICU.
I say this because most of the time, when a fetus is aborted after 21-24 weeks, it is because the fetus will either kill the mother before birth, or the fetus will not survive after birth.Report
Which was my point the whole time, but somehow Pinky has decided that riddles my argument with contradictions that make me no longer worthy of engaging with.Report
“The woman in question is a fully formed human being. The fetus, until a certain point in its gestation, isn’t and can’t survive without her.”
A spirited defense of eugenics. Well done!Report
lolReport
What’s the current state of the BC implant (depropravera?)Report
From what I understand, the Depo shot is still in wide use and is more or less trivial at this point. The whole implanted rod in the upper arm thing that was big in the 90’s ended up having a lot of side effects and isn’t in use anymore. (Which is too bad. Reversible BC that was good for five years? Nice! Of course, it was too good to be true. We used to make jokes about driving around with an airsoft gun loaded with that stuff.)Report
Nexplanon is still widely used. As other long-term forms. Most women I’ve known over the last decade or so use one or another long-term form, including several who use Nexplanon.Report
Oh I didn’t know that! I just remember Norplant making a big splash and then quietly receding away.Report
Under wicked Godless socialism, a woman’s body is the property of the state.
Under God-fearing American capitalism, her body is kept in the safety of her husband’s care.Report
Man, I wish American conservatives knew what socialism is.
Or understood the relationship between market economies/capitalism and the welfare state. I’d settle for that.Report
Shout out to me 20 years ago on this very blog. “At least libertarians know what socialism is so we can have more sensible conversations then with conservatives who scream that every single thing is socialism.” Those were the days.Report
Coincidentally I was just having a conversation about how bad the libertarian understanding of capitalism and socialism is ;).
That said, yeah, libertarians of the old world (not of today; what has happened to libertarianism in this country is, well, quite revealing) at least tend to be much better read than conservatives or liberals, so it’s possible to have interesting conversations with them. This was definitely true of OT’s commentariat back when there were a significant number of smart libertarians here.Report
I feel slighted…Report
Well at least we have accomplished something today. Good talk everybody.Report
Just had to twist the knife too, didn’t ya?Report
I think you might be the only libertarian from back then still around (is James K still here), and you’re definitely an old world libertarian, not a today’s libertarian.Report
Well thank you.
And James K still pops up from time to time.Report
I see he’s actually in this thread. I missed that. So there are two of you still around. Sad, though, because there were a bunch way back.Report
FYIGM is a frustrating accusation to constantly have to rebut. Most of the folks around these days have learned to tell the difference between the FYIGM libertarians, and the ones who really think the ethos can help society as a whole.
Kinda like how socialists are constantly rebutting the accusations that they want the society of Lenin/Stalin/Mao.Report
I mean, there are still some Leninists, Stalinists, and M-L-Maoists (the Maoists here in Austin are particularly annoying). But yeah, I wish people understood the many variations of socialism and even Marxism (and even communism).Report
I try to be as charitable to others as I’d like them to be towards me.
I don’t assume a socialist is eager for the day when they can put their ideological enemies up against the literal wall. I prefer to engage on the ideal that they really want things to get better for everyone.Report
If only the welfare state were the cause of our woes!Report
To be slightly fair, I don’t think most DSA types are exactly calling for the 1945 Labour platform either.Report
DSA is pretty diverse, ideologically. At least since 2017, when its membership grew, and shifted left, pretty rapidly. The most active people tend to range from Nordic-style social democrats to actual commies and anarchists, while the less active (but still often visible, especially in activist and other political circles) members tend to be left liberals who are often pretty uncomfortable with the Marxist/communist/anarchist rhetoric and iconography of the more active folks. Though I think DSA is moving left steadily, and there will eventually be a crisis as the organization, at the local and perhaps the national level, seeks to split itself from the Democratic Party entirely (though I think this is several years away).Report
Capitalism and socialism are terms that are void for vagueness at this point. Both basically mean a market economy but when people say capitalism they mean something with less regulation by the government and less welfare spending. When people call themselves socialists they basically mean New Deal/Great Society liberalism or social democracy. That is market economics but with government regulation and welfare spending rather than the government owning the means of production. The number of people who mean the later can be counted without losing track. That doesn’t prevent the Right from invoking scary socialism when somebody is really talking about New Deal/Great Society liberalism.Report
I don’t think anyone who calls himself a socialist is content with New Deal / Great Society level governmental programs. They likely support the inclination that drove those two eras’ legislation. I’d call that inclination “statism”. Oddly, I think the only difference between the statist’s 20-year goal and the socialist’s is who owns the means of production.
I think the terms “capitalist” and “socialist” have value as they’re conventionally used. They indicate opposite directions that people would want to see things go. I don’t consider either of them accurate to their original meanings, but what are you gonna do?Report
Socialist in general would not support the inclination of the New Deal since the ND was not remaking the economy as a socialist econ. Very diff. Socialists want far more to be run by the public and kept out of a free market. FDR/LBJ were really very not all socialists.Report
Either way, though, self-identification as a socialist is a huge red flag. Someone who self-identifies as a socialist either does so while having no idea what socialism actually is, or actually endorses socialism. Neither is a good look for anyone over the age of fifteen.Report
Kristin, this is not the time to be discussing this. WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE INSURRECTION. THAT’S WHERE OUR GOV’T NEEDS TO DEVOTE IT’S ATTENTION. BRINGING THIS UP JUST SHOWS YOU’RE UNAMERICAN.
🙂Report
I somehow guessed who wrote this article just by the title. I agree with Leeesq, the term socialism is currently overly broad and void for vagueness because it seems to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean. This includes right-leaning people who want it to mean “anything slightly to the left of complete anarcho-capitalism” and the current batch of under-45s who use it to mean a mixed market economy with decent regulations to prevent things from going off the rails. Almost no one uses it to mean the government controls the means of production which is the original definition of socialism.
Is socialism anti-choice and anti-life? I suppose this depends on what a speaker means by pro-choice and pro-life. I think a robust welfare state can give people more choices and freedom of opportunity. How many people want to start businesses but are scared to because they can’t risk losing employer-provided health insurance?Report
How many people want to start businesses but are scared to because they can’t risk losing employer-provided health insurance?
I’ve been seeing this talking point for years, and while it may have had some merit ten years ago for certain people with pre-existing conditions, it’s long past its sell-by date.
With guaranteed issue and community rating, health insurance is just another living expense, no more of an obstacle to starting a business than the need to buy food, pay the rent/mortgage, or buy gas and pay for car insurance.
There’s nothing magical about employer-provided health insurance. It’s just something that people expect as a perk for path-dependent historical reasons. In Japan there are probably a bunch of people who are afraid to start businesses because they can’t risk losing company housing.Report
Counterpoint to CATO. The war on poverty was a tremendous success, American poor are no longer poor like they were in the 1960s. https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-war-on-poverty-was-a-success?s=r
Now American poor are poor in new ways, because its no longer the 1960s. Capitalism got the win of making a massively wealthier and more productive society over those 60 years, but it still has to suit up on go on the field to deal with new problems.Report
pretty good analogy.Report
Social Security has been a smashing success in lowering the rate of poverty among the elderly.
Medicare is so successful those old shouty Republicans will cut you if you touch it.
Government regulations have been so successful that things which were common a century ago, like disastrous building fires are almost unheard of.
The air in American cities is cleaner than it was when Kristin was born, the water in the lakes, streams and rivers is cleaner, the soil less toxic.
By virtually any measurement, the New Deal and the postwar round of liberal managed capitalism had a unqualified record of success in producing prosperity and overall improvement in society.
But for the past 40 some years, there has been a parallel experiment conducted. Republicans have been cutting taxes and regulations everywhere they hold power.
What is their track record? Have tax cuts ever increased revenue? Reduced deficits? Has deregulation led to better outcomes?
During the Cold War, the difference between Communism and Western managed capitalism was stark- anyone could just look at one and the other and see for themselves the outcome.
Can anyone point me to something like that? Superior outcomes due to conservative principles?
Or are we still waiting for Godot, er, True Conservatism?Report
That suggests an interesting project. Looking at which areas of America have done well and poorly over the past 40 years and see if that says anything about what’s working and what isn’t.
From 550 km away, it seems to me that both team red and team blue have some W and Ls to tally.Report
It should be obvious and universally agreed that the grand experiment of the 20th century, the struggle that marked almost all politics during that century, is over and resolved.
The rise and fall of Communism and the ensuing history of Russia and China demonstrates conclusively the following conclusions:
1. Marxist/ Leninist socialism is less capable of producing prosperous economies than managed market economies.
Its important here to pause and note the term “managed market” rather than “capitalism”.
Because in addition to the failed economies of the Soviet Union, we also have the empirical evidence of countries like Haiti. There are markets there, plenty of private ownership of capital and property, but mismanagement of the economy stymies prosperity.
Which leads to the second conclusion:
2. The choice of economic systems is only one variable and maybe not even the driving one. Russia and China both have plenty of markets now, but like Haiti they are mismanaged and politically repressive.
The 20th century (and this very essay by Kristin) was like one long Nixon-Khrushchev Kitchen Debate, where it was just assumed that public ownership of capital led to one inevitable destination, while the private led to another equally inevitable point.
But they don’t “lead” anywhere.
There is a massive amount of public ownership and control and management of the factors of production in the United States, maybe even more than in Russia, yet the US is head and shoulders superior to Russia in terms of prosperity and freedom.
No one has ever found the magic potion, the skeleton key that unlocks universal prosperity and freedom. About the closest we can say is that carefully managed markets with strong social safety nets plus a diligent and responsible citizenry can produce good results most of the time.Report
Really good comment Chip and I think it gets to the fundamental problem with the way this debate plays out, i.e. a lot of tilting at abstractions and not a lot of vision.Report
This is the mainstream American view of the 20th century, which I find very odd, because there are many in depth, critical analyses of that century, beginning fairly early within it, that all provide very different pictures from this mainstream American view.
I’m reading one I really like, right now, even if its analysis suggests a rather unpleasant near future. I highly recommend it, and the literature that came after it (it was written in 1994):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1844673049/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_0B9WKD9S8NTNQDDA0QWE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Amusingly, given current mainstream discourse, one of the primary motivations for the forming the Institute for Social Research, and the creation of critical theory, in 1929, was not to create a world of gay space communists, as some might have you believe, but to understand what the hell had gone wrong with communism in the Soviet Union, a task made more urgent in the 30s, though quickly supplanted by the rise of fascism and Nazism, but still on the minds of Frankfurt School thinkers well into the 60s (e.g., in One Dimensional Man).
You’ll find discussions of this, and of the whole of the 20th century, in virtually any Western Marxist literature to this day, but also in non-Marxist history and political science. Yet here we are, with facile narrative of a competition between two competing, diametrically opposed systems for organizing society, and may the best system win. Shrug.Report
“the creation of critical theory, in 1929, was not to create a world of gay space communists”.
Another great example of “positive externalities”?Report
Personally, I would welcome gay space communism, but it’s not really what Horkheimer, Benjamin, and Adorno were thinking about, to their great discredit.Report
In my entirely biased opinion, “what went wrong” with Communism wasn’t just that it was Communism, but that it occurred in Russia.
A quick look at Russian history before, during, and after Communism seems to show that whether it operates under monarchy, Communism, or globalist capitalism, Russia has an intractable inability to produce either prosperity or freedom.
A comparison of say, British history shows that even with staggeringly high rates of socialized factors of production, Britain still was able to produce much higher levels of prosperity, freedom and happiness.
Such that, when the British people eventually decided to change, they were free enough to simply privatize what had been socialized- No gulags, no revolution, just a prosperous and free people selecting a different path. In their case, the “inevitable” path of socialism turned out to be not to inevitable after all.
Which is kinda my point, that economic systems matter a whole lot less than all the other variables of political and social culture.Report
Strong agree. Russia is a great example of country ruled by violent dictators who were fine living on a mountain of the skulls of their own people. The names and philosophies changed but that is it.Report
A common belief among socialists, beginning in effect during the Russian revolution, is that the failure of the same revolution in Germany, for which the Russian revolution was essentially seen as a sort of spark to ignite the flame, pretty much ended the prospects of the project. So yeah, leaving Russia effectively isolated created some very real problems, not the least of which was the oxymoronic concept of “Socialism in One Country.”
That said, the massive increase in Russia’s production capacity and overall quality of life that came so rapidly after the revolution, and the massive decrease in quality of life that came after the fall of the Soviet Union, suggest that the system wasn’t entirely a failure, even if it was highly imperfect even by its own original theoretical standards.Report
You are putting on to Communism what is best explained by the Industrial Revolution. Witness the rest of the world which also got improvements in the quality of life even without Communism.
Then the USSR fell apart and we learned that it had always been lying about it’s GDP and other figures. So evaluating how well they did is kind of like evaluating how well Enron did when much of the answer is they were cooking the books.
Then they became a Kleptocracy devoted to resource extraction and hiding money overseas.
Arguing the Kleptocracy is worse ignores Poland and the rest of the puppet(slave?) states which are now free and not being forced to do things at gun point for Russia’s benefit. It’s like asking why the slave owners are worse off now that their slaves are free.Report
I mean one could argue that only in Russia were the masses immiserated enough and the elites arrogant/foolish enough to allow the Communists to actually get a chance to overthrow the system and try to set up one of their own.
Or, I suppose one could counter that once it happened in Russia all the other fat cats around the globe were on notice and moderated their fat cattery accordingly.Report
The historian Orlando Figres is highly critical of the Communists but also clear eyed that some kind of Revolution was inevitable given the steadfast inability of the Romanovs to liberalize and reform.
The Bolsheviks were never a majority party but they were the most organized and uniform of the various revolutionary groups. Plus they had some dumb luck of being the majority at the right places and times to take over. After Nicholas II abdicated the throne.Report
Watching Russia’s history since 1992 has convinced me that, had the Revolution failed and the Czar survived, the two most likely alternative histories were:
1. The aristocracy grasped the message of the toppling monarchies across Europe after the Great War, and followed suit and adopted democratic regimes, with the monarchy reserved as a figurehead.
2. But far, far more likely given Russian history, the aristocracy would have toppled the weak and ineffectual Nicholas in a coup and replaced him with someone who was strong, ruthless, someone who was not squeamish about what it would take to Make The Rabble Obey and get those Ukrainians, Poles, Hungarians, and assorted Slavs back in line.
Someone like, oh say, Josef Stalin.
In other words, I firmly believe that communism or no, much of the 20th century Russian history would have been soaked in blood.Report
Speaking of Figes, this was the big important new history book when I was in college and we read it in the class I took on revolutionary Russia:
https://www.amazon.com/Peoples-Tragedy-Russian-Revolution-1891-1924/dp/071267327X
Everyone (read historians) was excited about the open access Russia was giving to its records back then. Definitely worth reading for anyone interested in the subject.Report
And the problem with East Germany was that they tried it with Germans. North Korea’s problem was Koreans. China’s problem was the Chinese.
You wouldn’t believe what Cuba’s problem was.Report
If you are trying to refute the thesis,, you should not pick examples that support it..
Why were Germany, Korea, and Cuba illiberal states before adopting socialism?
The inevitable outcome of capitalism?Report
How did West Germany do in comparison to East Germany?
Like, you took two systems and put them right next to each other and you could see, in real time, which system worked well and which system worked less well. Like it was a science experiment!
Or you could do the same with North Korea vs. South Korea. North Vietnam vs. South Vietnam!Report
East Germany was a puppet state controlled by the Russians. West Germany had a viable socialist party with the S.D.P.Report
The key difference is social democracy accepts the legitimacy of and operates within liberal democracy.Report
Yes, and as with any science experiment, you need to develop a theory that explains the empirical evidence.
If Russia, China, North Korea, and East Germany were failed dystopias “because socialism”, were the presocialist versions of these states failed “because capitalism?
Can you present a theory which explains their failure, prior to adopting a different economic system?
For that matter, can you present a theory explains the failed dystopia which is now capitalist Russia?
And what are we calling China now?Report
I didn’t call them “failed dystopias”.
Is that how you are seeing them? If so, why do these attempts at “socialism” keep resulting in “failed dystopias”?
And what are we calling China now?
That’s a great question. Is it still “Communist”?
Do we have any Marxists on the board who can explain whether China has realized Marxism in any sense of the word?Report
Do you have a theory, anything at all, to explain the empirical events of the countries that you so eagerly named?
“Because socialism” fails as a theory because it can’t account for the fact that every single developed nation that you have named has socialized large parts of their economies and according to you, are wildly successful.
Yet the world is littered with countries which have almost no socialism at all, yet are miserable and poor.
How do you explain this?Report
to explain the empirical events of the countries that you so eagerly named?
If you have a list of countries I should have named instead, please provide it.
Maybe there are better examples of 20th Century Socialism than East Germany, China, North Vietnam, North Korea, and Cuba.
What are they? I’d like to see them. The next time we argue about Socialism, I can use them as examples instead of the ones that immediately came to mind.
“Because socialism” fails as a theory because it can’t account for the fact that every single developed nation that you have named has socialized large parts of their economies and according to you, are wildly successful.
I wouldn’t call them “wildly” successful. I’d merely compare them to their neighbor that has a compass directional name and say “which of these two was better to live in?” and “which of these two had net gains from people escaping from the other?”
Yet the world is littered with countries which have almost no socialism at all, yet are miserable and poor. How do you explain this?
Something like Thomas Hobbes and maybe that line from Heinlein:
Report
So let me get this straight:
If a nation chooses to be liberal and embrace freedom and creativity, if it supports people who take risks, offering them both the reward of individual success, but also the security of being able to fail without starving, then it builds wealth.
Empirical examples to support this theory include all the modern industrialized nations which have private property, managed markets and social safety nets.
By Jove, I think you’ve got it!Report
Chip, which countries should I use as examples in the future? You criticized me for picking the ones I did.
Which ones should I have picked to avoid criticism?
Do you see why I’d want to compare East Germany to West Germany instead of comparing it to Nazi Germany?Report
You’ve already explained your theory, and I accept it, and celebrate it.
Liberal societies create wealth, illiberal ones don’t.
Take the win.Report
“If Russia, China, North Korea, and East Germany were failed dystopias “because socialism”, were the presocialist versions of these states failed “because capitalism?”
you’re aware that there was no “presocialism” North Korea or East Germany, right?Report
We like twin studies because, at their ideal, we get the same people with just one factor changing.
East/West Germany (etc) are seriously damning because they have the same people with the same society with only the economic systems different.
Even if we think Russia was always headed for disfunction because of their culture, East Germany and the rest of the twins were clearly not.
The implication is, even if Russia tends towards brutality, Communism likely made things a LOT worse. Like the difference between East and West Germany worse.Report
“About the closest we can say is that carefully managed markets with strong social safety nets plus a diligent and responsible citizenry can produce good results most of the time.”
I too find much wisdom in this comment. The debate is over how “carefully managed” the markets need to be, and how “strong” the safety nets should be. But yeah, the winning sociology/political combination for the last century has been markets and safety nets.Report
A million years ago, we had a symposium about inequality. My argument, in a nutshell, was that Progress will have inequality baked into it. Like, the creation of the cell phone created haves when, before, nobody had a cell phone. Then we went from only investment bankers carrying bricks to investment bankers carrying $999 Razr phones to everybody having an opinion on iPhones vs. Androids.
The massively wealthier and more productive society itself created inequality and addressing poverty in the future will mean providing the impoverished with things that have not yet been invented. Which seems weird.Report
There are two ways we can evaluate the success of the War on Poverty. Easy mode is asking whether it reduced post-transfer poverty. This is purely a matter of throwing enough money at the problem. Hard mode is asking whether it reduced pre-transfer poverty.
I think it’s hard to deny that it’s been successful by the first measure but a failure by the second. The War on Poverty has successfully put a bandage over the problem of people being unable to provide for themselves and their families, but it hasn’t clearly made any progress at all in helping a larger share of the population achieve self-sufficiency.
The pre-transfer poverty rate fluctuates with the business cycle, but there doesn’t seem to be a clear secular downward trend. The claim was that people in poverty just needed a hand up to break the cycle of poverty, and the War on Poverty has been failing to deliver on this for three generations.Report
One wonders what the structural reasons for that might be . . . .Report
Adjacent:
Report
One with better critical thinking skills would first think to ask whether the balance of the evidence points to structural factors as the main issue here.Report
Well, you have concluded that wealth transfers don’t mitigate poverty. Seems like structural issues are a good next step to interrogate.Report
you have concluded that wealth transfers don’t mitigate poverty
Here’s one of the things he said: “I think it’s hard to deny that it’s been successful by the first measure but a failure by the second.”Report
yes, and he goes on to trash it all based on his perception of failure over the second.
So I’m trying to move on to the next big factor . . . knowing full well he doesn’t really believe in structural causes of society’s ills.Report
If the goal is one thing, then it has succeeded.
If the goal is the other thing, then it has failed.
What’s the goal?Report
I think he said wealth transfer do mitigate poverty, but the evidence that they solve poverty isn’t there.
E.g. A person losses their job, and applies for assistance. The assistance may mitigate the loss of income, but a cash handout by itself is not going to solve the unemployment problem. The person needs to find a new job that has a sufficient wage. If it’s a straight, “The current job market sucks, finding a new job with a high enough wage takes time.” (see: the start of COVID), then cash handouts are probably a good thing. If the person isn’t just unemployed, but also unemployable (skill set is obsolete, they have mental health or substance abuse issues, etc.) then the cash handout doesn’t solve poverty.Report
except he have structural problems with that in this country:
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/06/14/1104660659/why-the-racial-wealth-gap-is-so-hard-to-closeReport
Discussion on Globalism:
“We are rich! Incredibly wealthy, such that even the poorest among us would be the envy of medieval kings!”
Discussion on the social safety net:
“The war on poverty is over, and poverty won!”Report
I gotta say, while I stopped commenting here, I tend to read it every day and look at the comments. It’s nice to know that Kristin’s rants continue as a wonderful platter of resentments, deranged logic, and general paranoia. I had meant to write this in the last few posts, but I forgotten.
I want to be clear – I do look down upon you from my elite tower, Kristin. Because well, yeah. And I will dramatically read your own writings to you in the reeducation camps. I am the fascist leader, Antifa V!
(an aside- there are a ton of regulatory issues that we should be dealing with, that’s true! Fighting market concentration is useful)Report
*Rises up resolutely*
No, I am Antifa V!Report
It takes a very specific sort of glasses to deduce that the current problem with baby formula is due to _the government_.
Yes, various states handing huge amounts of business to individual corporations is, perhaps, stupid, but the simple fact is that there are _plenty_ of industries where ‘four major supplies’ would be an _improvement_. The idea that we would have more than four major supplies without WIC involved in the market is honestly a little absurd.
And as for regulation of what can go on the market: This is actually complete nonsense: The CNN article that is supposedly proving this is proving no such thing. A few choice quotes:
Ridiculous government making food meet nutritional requirements so stupid babies don’t starve to death. Dumb babies, too stupid to eat an orange or something if they don’t get enough vitamin C.
Of those ‘five years’, two years were literally just wasted.
Wait, let me get this straight? People setting up a factory to make food had to create a _supply chain_ of ingredients? What is this absurd government regulation?!?!?! How dare the government…uh…require such a thing? I guess?
They should work the way that all other food manufacturers work: Randomly ordering bulk ingredients off Amazon and looking into (But never quite taking the plunge) getting a Costco membership.
Heh! We actually finally got into something that’s government regulation!
Wait. What happens if you just, uh, use an existing formula instead of creating a new one.
Oh, look! You can just use an existing formula that’s already been approved! You actually don’t have to come up with a new formulation.
Wait, wait, rewind a second:
In this article talking about how hard it is to enter the market, they just sorta glance by someone who did it pretty successfully…and then was _bought out_ by Danone, one of the four large companies that make all the formula.
Maybe _that’s_ the actual problem, right there?
—
This entire article is utter nonsense. Saying things like ‘Why haven’t new companies broken through in such a critical industry? There are just too many barriers to entry.’
Um…you can ask that question about half of the entire corporate universe: Why are there so few companies in industry X? It’s a massive systemic problem due to the complete failure for the government to do anything about consolidation, including in tons of industries where there are much lower barriers to entry.
Ooo, guess how many companies make insulin? Go ahead, guess. The answer is three. Not in the US, in the _world_.
Seems weird how US regulation is stopping other people in other countries from making it! In fact, foreign companies _do_…a bit, somewhere around 4%. But those three companies have at least 96% of the worldwide market along with 100% of the US market.
Weird. It’s almost as if larger companies are more successful and swallow smaller competitors as part of the normal action of the market, reduce the players in that market to as few as possible, which seems almost incomprehensible because it turns out that’s often a BAD THING, not only resulting in monopolies but sometimes resulting in accidental disasters as having distilling everything to a few sources can fall apart easily. But how can something the market does naturally be a BAD THING?!!!!!!1!!!1!!!!!! SYSTEM ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE!!! MUST BE SOCIALISM.Report
The fact that the FDA is corrupt/captured isn’t really a problem with “socialism”, per se.
But it’s difficult to find a term for that sort of corruption/capture.
Arguing that the wrong word is being used to criticize that particular type of corruption/capture seems to be putting emphasis on one of the parts of the problem that won’t go away if critics of the corruption/capture are successfully shamed.Report
No, that’s not my point. Maybe using two where the FDA was involved made that confusing.
My point is that all markets that fit certain criteria gravitate towards just a few entities, by larger entities slowing buying up all their competitors. (In fact, many that _don’t_ fit that criteria gravitate towards it, but the ones that do fit basically _always_ gravitate that way)
The criteria is that the products…
1) …are required for survival. No luxuries.
2) …have no real distinguishing traits, or at least not any decisions that are made based on that. (Like medication…different insulin medication is, technically, different, but people don’t actually choose it, their doctor does.)
3) …basically have no real innovation possible, no one’s suddenly going to make advances. (Although sometimes, depending, the larger companies can just _buy_ the sudden innovation and keep like normal.)
It’s hard to think of things not regulated by the FDA that are not luxuries.
Cellular service providers, which are now down to three, but I guess you’d just argue those are still regulated by the government. (Cell phones, OTOH, do not fit under #2 and #3, so continue to have a somewhat working market still.)
Um…CPUs are a good example. Two companies, sometimes another one popping in for a bit.
Cosmetics are too. (No, cosmetics are not luxuries. Women are basically required to wear them.) I guess they are, also, technically regulated by the FDA, but I promise, those tests are pretty easy. There’s about seven of those (Estée Lauder Companies, L’Oréal, Unilever, Procter & Gamble, Shiseido, Johnson & Johnson, and Coty) that supply basically _all_ cosmetics, although that’s a little confusing because that’s an entire industry…if you pick a specific product, not all seven companies make it. Like I think only four of those companies make makeup?
Oh, wait, no, Procter and Gamble just sold basically all of their cosmetics businesses to Coty. So really there’s only six now.
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So my point is: Anyone pretending that formula is caused by the FDA is being extremely silly. Considering it happens in any industry like that.Report
The formula problem isn’t “caused” by the FDA. But the FDA relieved part of the problem by allowing European formula that had been approved by the EMA into the country.
It kinda reminds me of the epipen thing.Report
“Ooo, guess how many companies make insulin?”
quite a few actually
and in China alone, those other manufacturers coming online resulted in a 48% price cut in 2021Report
Oh, yeah. I wanted to talk about that too. A million years ago, Scott Alexander wrote an essay about, among other things, insulin.
Here’s the start of the relevant portion:
The fun part is when he starts to talk about Peru:
So… why is Peru able to sell insulin cheaply?Report
4. The people selling insulin in Peru (Who are, for the record, the same people selling it everywhere) know Peru’s government would crack down on overpriced insulin, so do not attempt it. Whereas they know that the US government will _not_ do that, so are free to sell it at whatever cost they want.
Incidentally, that is a hilariously stupid question by the stupid-as-ever Scott Alexander, because he seems completely unaware the stuff in Peru _is_ the same as the stuff sold in the US.
It’s Humalog and Lantus, the exact same brand produced by the exact same people. It’s probably even produced in the same place, as those factories tend to be in Mexico or Puerto Rico.
There is no hypothetical ‘better technology’ or ‘better regulatory environment’, and no one created ‘generic insulin’. It’s the exact thing sold both places. It’s just massively marked up in the US.
Here, the Peru consulate will tell people what drugs that pharmacies sell in Peru and their prices, just type in humalog or lantus and pick a dropdown: http://opm.digemid.minsa.gob.pe/#/consulta-producto
Stay dumbass, Scott. *throws off salute*Report
So it’s #3? A better regulatory environment?Report
The ‘regulatory environment in Peru’ does not make ‘producing biosimilar insulins cheap and easy’.
In fact, I can’t find any evidence that Peru _has_ ‘biosimilar insulin’. The Vox article doesn’t say that, the Health Affairs article doesn’t, and I obviously can’t get to the NEJM.
And more importantly, there’s no reason for it to have any of that. They just sell reasonably priced _name-brand_ insulin in Peru. It’s literally the stuff that biosimilars are trying to mimic.
‘Biosimilar’ only matters in countries where drug manufacturers are allowed massive markups so someone has to come along and figure out a way around their patents. No one really needs(1) biosimiliar Humalog when you can buy an actual Humanlog KwikPen for…*does calculations*…apparently 13 dollars. Even when adjusted for cost of living that’s like 30 dollars.
Scott Alexander is more than likely just wrong about this, which is an interesting coincidence because he’s actually wrong about everything he’s ever said and every conclusion he’s ever drawn. If you think he’s right, what has actually happened is he was doubly-wrong: He was wrong, but then typo’d and was correct. True fact.
The ‘regulatory environment in Peru’ actually makes it very hard to sell drugs at huge markups, and thus they do not get sold at huge markups.
1) I mean, we actually _do_ need other people making it, because as I said this situation is incredibly frail and there are concerns other than the price. I guess I mean ‘No one bothers to try to compete because that price is, frankly, very low and it’s unlikely it would make a profit.’Report
I just did a google on “generic insulin peru” and got this.
My quick google of “generic insulin” is that it’s called “isophane”.
Isophane is mentioned in the Pan American Journal of Public Health report I linked above.Report
that article doesn’t exactly refute his point – it notes the “big three” still manufacture most of the insulin, and in countries where there are other choices, only 13 get to choose – with only 32% of market share being held by those other providers. Sure, the Big Three don’t have good market penetration in China anymore, but do you really want US insulin supplies held hostage by a hostile foreign power? Really?Report
“that article doesn’t exactly refute his point – it notes the “big three” still manufacture most of the insulin”
his point was “there’s only three”
he’s wrong
it took about thirty seconds on Google to show that he was wrong
and his related point was “it’s naïve to expect that competition will result in price decreases because this has not happened in the US market”
and, um, it did
and I’m sure you’re typing “well that’s China, where the government can just declare that it’s going to pay a particular price, so it’s hardly surprising to find that their domestic producers would charge less money!”
and my reply is “you just admitted that the whole thing is run by the government, and that failures to provide goods to people who need them represent failures by the government and are hardly anything to do with capitalism or private industry, which is what we’ve been saying all along”Report
Are you drunk?
Gee, it’s almost as if I mentioned that explicitly.
…you think my point is that it’s naive to expect that competition will result in price decreases? What the utter f*ck would you think that was my point?
In fact, please point to anywhere I spoke about _prices_ AT ALL
I have not spoken a single word about _prices_. I have spoken about market _fraility_.
You know, like the other half of my post pointed out how the baby formula market had such frailty that the entire market collapsed when one factory shut down.
Seriously, are you on drugs?
What the hell are you talking about? I just ‘admitted the whole thing is run by the government’?
Here’s the actual thing you pointed out: Literally six month ago, the Chinese government did some stuff to explicitly replace big Pharma.
What’s your argument here? How exactly is what I said disputed by this? Is your assertation that it is _no longer_ 96% worldwide thanks to China deliberately focusing on local manufacturing?
Let’s take a survery here: Is DensityDuck’s post a reasonable way to say ‘The things you have said are correct although China has recently taken steps to change that so that 96% number is outdated’?
In fact…is there any evidence they are outdated? Because…that deal actually hasn’t gone into effect yet, it’s to take place in the second half of 2022.Report
“Seriously, are you on drugs?”
from the looks of things you ought to be. did you forget again?
“I have not spoken a single word about _prices_. I have spoken about market _fraility_.”
you said something about insulin
i replied to what you said about insulin
in fact let’s quote what you said: “Ooo, guess how many companies make insulin? Go ahead, guess. The answer is three. Not in the US, in the _world_.”
i understand that you are mad that your silly generalization was easily disproven by casual research
but, y’know, sure, you didn’t actually say the word prices
but that you would bring up insulin to not talk about prices seems like one of those “distractions via irrelevancy” things that you get so upset about when you think Jaybird’s doing it
(because insulin is not, hasn’t been, and isn’t at risk for becoming subject to “frailty”, seeing as how there are actually dozens of companies making it all around the world)
although actually from the looks of things you like being incredibly upset about things, at least what’s what I gather from watching you jack your hateboner all over Kristin’s postsReport
No, it’s not.
The Congressional Research Service, in 2018, reported that over 90% worldwide insulin market was controlled by three companies.
Is your premise that such a thing is no longer true? (As you think is evidenced by a Chinese deal that _hasn’t gone into effect yet_. All reporting on this deal says that China will start buying this stuff in the second half of 2022, which we are not at yet.).
Or is it that the vague ‘over 90%’ that the Congressional Research Service said might not reach ‘96%’ that people who have actually done the math say, and do you have any evidence of _that_?
Which incredibly minor quibble do you think ‘disproves’ my claim: That the amount of insulin provided by those three companies might only be between 91%-95% instead of 96%, or that the information I am I using might be outdated by six months? (Or, actually, not outdated at all, as, again, that deal has not actually started yet, so it’s more the information might be outdated _in the future_.)
I brought up insulin because it’s a critical life-or-death market that is supplied by an incredibly few amount of companies. (Less than formula, in fact, which is why I picked it.) And thus any slight disruption of the market could cause disastrous shortages.
You know, like baby formula, the thing we’re talking about.
Except this is worldwide, not just in America.
And my point is ‘Massive consolidation is the natural progression of quite a lot of markets (I didn’t get into it yet because I’m instead in this dumb discussion, but it happens in all stable non-flexible mandatory markets, which I would explain if I wasn’t instead doing this.), as evidenced by this other thing, it is not caused by government regulation and cannot be solved by not regulating the market’.
I have no idea why you went to price. The price of insulin is, as a cause of this consolidation, pretty absurd in US, but that’s a different side effect of consolidation, my point is that consolidation causes _frailty_, which is an entirely different problem.
Yes, there are a dozen companies making it.
In very small amounts that can’t come _close_ to meeting worldwide demand if one of the big three were to run into issues. People who currently make 4% of all insulin cannot suddenly start making another 30% of it.
No, not even in China. Although it is possible the new factories set up in China could ramp up fast enough to meet all _Chinese_ demand, in fact, that’s almost certainly why China has done this, because the Chinese government are not idiots. And if there is a shortage, China will sit there, happy, with insulin, while the rest of the world doesn’t have any.Report
“I brought up insulin because it’s a critical life-or-death market that is supplied by an incredibly few amount of companies…I have no idea why you went to price.”
I went to price because I assumed you had a reason for bringing insulin into the conversation but it turns out you were derailing it
I mean, if anything, the insulin market is direct disproof of your assertion that the natural process of a market economy can’t be expected to ensure supply of critically-needed items
because there’s a global pandemic that’s disrupted the supply chain for materials so badly that we can no longer reliably supply specialty infant formula
but there’s still plenty of insulin around, there aren’t massive shortages of the stuff or incredible price hikes since 2020
even with, as you point out, most of it being made by only three companies
so maybe this is just another one of those things where you see the ball going toward your own net and you’re hoping to wordswordswords your way out of itReport
No, talking about _prices_ is derailing the conversation. Literally no one had been talking about prices until you brought it up.
The article was about, and I quote it: should such a huge percentage of America’s baby formula come from just ONE factory?
And I agreed with that, and about how dangerous it was, and then I further when on to point out how that situation can’t be caused by what the article said it was caused because it appears to happen in every industry, such as insulin.
YOU then derailed this into talking about prices, when every person before you was talking about ‘It is dangerous to have consolidated vital industries into so few hands’.
Um, that’s not why we’re having the problems with formula supply. It has nothing to do with ‘disrupted supply chains’ or ‘global pandemic’.
If you had _read the post_, you’d notice these words: You know, government programs like the FDA, which back in February (after first allegedly ignoring reported problems for months) closed down a baby formula plant that made a real whole lot of the formula in the US, particularly for special needs infants.
The reason we have a problem with baby formula is that a single factory was closed, and the _entire system was so frail_ that it could no longer make enough with that single factory removed. Not just specialty formula, although that has been impacted worse, but all formula is having shortages.
You also notice that no insulin factory _has_ been closed.
Unless your premise is that insulin factories literally _cannot_ be closed, that they are immune to government action and fire and strikes and will continue operating regardless, the fact insulin is _currently_ still available doesn’t actually prove the system is not frail, it just proves it hasn’t broken. (Which no one was arguing.)
Insulin is actually much harder to produce than baby formula, and it’s much harder to start up a new factory or ramp up production. Baby formula is a food, insulin is a drug, and drugs by neccessity have tighter tolerances than food.
On the plus side, insulin manufacturers do appear to have more factories than formula manufacturers. On the minus side, the reason they do that is because insulin is so much harder to ship. If something happens to, for example, the Novo Nordisk plant in North Carolina, they’d end up having to ship insulin from Brazil, which not only presents a lot of practical challenges, but that one plant cannot manage both North and South America, so at some point they’d have to ship across the oceans, which presents even more problems and is probably completely impractical right now.Report
You keep citing random markets, like China and the other article that had a bunch of low-income companies, and pretending that disproves something about the _global_ number. “Why, this specific country has done something to fix the problem, that must mean the worldwide numbers are off!”
Here’s an actual official statement, from the Congressional Research Service, from 2018:
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF11026.pdf
Please note it says ‘over 90%’ there, they didn’t bother to actually work the math out.
The people who have done the math have asserted those three companies produce about 96% of all insulin and take about 99% of all income from the sale of insulin. (Because the US market is insanely profitable.)
But maybe they’re wrong! Maybe those three companies only *checks official US government statements by the research service* only ‘over 90%’ but _not_ reaching 96%!Report
To actually deal with the issues of the essay, one of the problems is that “capitalism” and “socialism” have become totems of a sort.
You see this with some of the criticisms of “capitalism” out there that are really criticisms of entropy.
The current situation here isn’t really a criticism of “socialism” but a criticism of this weird deference to authority. I saw a quotation the other day that talked about how, once, the arguments were about “how can we make this happen?” but are now “how can we get authority on board with this?”
This outsourcing of our own agency to authority might make sense if authority was competent. But it ain’t.Report
I, and my 2 million federal civil service co-workers, appreciate your vote of confidence.Report
I’m not really referring to the DMV folks as much as, to use an easy example, guys like Chesa Boudin.Report
In a thread about federal regulations . . . I don’t buy your misdirection.Report
Okay, let’s swap to Federal.
I’m not talking about the guys whose job it is to interview Fiancé Visa applicants at Homeland Security.
I’m talking about folks like the Press Secretary and the captured/corrupt folks at the FDA.Report
Sorry bro, you don’t get to just walk that back so easily. Because both the federal examples you cite are part of that authority.
Try again.Report
As are, for example, the Press Secretary. As is the Executive Branch.
And, yes, it even extends to the state and city level as well.
I’ve got an essay in the hopper about this. In a nutshell: if the trains run on time, the authorities can get away with a lot. If the trains don’t, the authorities can’t get away with much.
How those trains doin’?Report
Before you hit “publish” you might want to study the American Communists and their endless struggle to become relevant and consider why they have failed.
One reason their endless complaints about corrupt/captured corporations never found an audience isn’t that they are false- they are absolutely true.
But they could never translate that into a vision for something better, or give us a reason to trust them.
Just pointing out “The FDA made a mistake! The cops did this Bad Thing!” is pointless because yeah, we all get it.
We got it years ago, long before you did.
If you can’t articulate some alternative vision then you’ll just be like the RevComs who periodically paper my neighborhood with all sort of comical posts and stickers about rising up and unshackling and yadda yadda who-the-hell-cares.Report
If you can’t articulate some alternative vision then you’ll just be like the RevComs who periodically paper my neighborhood with all sort of comical posts and stickers about rising up and unshackling and yadda yadda who-the-hell-cares.
When we’ve argued this in the past, I pointed to stuff like the EU’s European Medicines Agency.
Like, I’m not even pointing to a pie-in-the-sky thing. I’m pointing to something that actually exists!Report
The vast majority of the government “trains” run on time at all levels in as much as they deliver the services asked of them the best they can within the constraints of law and funding.Report
It’s only a handful of bad apples, I guess.Report
Or it’s not any bad apples, because constraints of law & funding can do a whole lot to tie the hands of the agencies. You gotta separate the rules that exist because some agency head stuck it in there at the request of a lobbyist, versus a lawmaker doing it at the request of a lobbyist, versus an enforcement agent/agency taking a unique view to the language of the regulation.Report
Then it’s merely a case where the FDA has been captured.
I don’t know whether to feel relief or what.Report
There’s a difference between authority being competent and government workers being skilled and diligent. I live in Maryland and know a few people who work for the federal government, and I respect them. Maybe I’m making a point that Jaybird wouldn’t agree with, but the conservative position typically is that government isn’t capable of competence by its structure. We’re not one good staffer away from a good government.Report
Your problem is you see government doing things you don’t agree with, conclude that’s not “good government” and proceed to bash the people doing the governing. Sometimes you hit the mark with remembering that federal employees, state employees and county employees are all at the whims of the laws and regulations they are handed by legislative branches, but mostly you, and Jay, and other rail against “bad government” without ever bothering to be clear about what part of government actually bothers you.
As to competent authority – I honestly have no idea what that would be beyond skilled people working diligently, since authority – government in particular – is a people doing things construct.Report
Jay, and other rail against “bad government” without ever bothering to be clear about what part of government actually bothers you.
Here’s a thread about the FDA from a million years ago. It’s about Epipens and, specifically, how the US had only approved one kind of Epipen and the EU had approved eight. (An Epipen in the US cost around $300 while ones in the EU cost ~$70.)
The question that I asked then and still would enjoy seeing kicked around now is:
Report
They’re absolutely putting themselves in harm’s way. Being fined or prosecuted is terrible for people.Report
One of the interesting things about how the FDA works is they can’t approve something unless the manufacturer asks. And then the cost burden is on the manufacturer to provide all the documentation and/or clinical data to demonstrate effectiveness and safety. At least the way I read the statute, Congress requires them to act that way.
Does the EU do it that way?
(A considerable amount of the criticism aimed at the regulatory agencies ought to be aimed at Congress, which more and more refuses to do its job.)Report
Agreed, and its one of the things that drives me nuts about the whole “government sucks” line of reasoning.Report
I don’t know. I’m sure that there’s a similar function to the EMA having to be asked first, but then the EMA does its work. (I’m pretty sure that the EMA is funded by tax dollars rather than by pharma companies.)
I’m sure that the cost burden for the documentation/clinical data remains on the manufacturer.
Yeah, this is also a failure of Congress. This is one of the several areas in which Congress got captured (and that’s how the FDA got captured too).Report
I’m pretty sure that the EMA is funded by tax dollars rather than by pharma companies.
The EMA legislation simply allows the FDA to cut a few corners and waive some of the usual requirements if an emergency has been declared. Doesn’t provide any money.
In the case of Covid vaccines, Congress separately agreed to provide production funding (with strings, so not all companies took it), and to pay for hundreds of millions of doses in advance for possibly worthless vaccines.Report
I was using EMA to refer to the European Medicines Agency… Jeez. That’s also the acronym for Emergency (Something) Act, isn’t it?Report
My bad. I was thinking of the EUA statutes.Report
You’re missing the federalist notion that different levels of government are more fit for handling different problems. My problem isn’t merely that government does things that I don’t like. It’s that higher levels of government are doing things they’re not suited for, or government is doing things that the private sector is more suited for. These conditions limit the potential of competency.Report
In cases where government appears to “take over” a private sector function, its usually because the private sector isn’t actually doing the things it ought to do. Like cleaning up toxic wastes, or paying women equitably, or keeping its formula manufacturing plants free from contamination.
As to the federalist part – I tend to agree, and I also tend to see a lot of people railing against “government” without being specific as tow hat government function they dis like and who owns it. Take Kristen’s swipe at homelessness in a large PNW city. We now from a lot of empirical evidence that homelessness has several root causes – the most basic of which is the rise in house prices outstripping wages. House prices are in no way controlled by any level of government, and while minimum wages are set by governments at several levels, none of them is indexed to things like historical inflation. So if Kristen wants to actually address a significant root cause of homelessness, but do so without government intervention at any level – since its a market based thing the private sector ought to do a better job of, how is she to proceed? Market’s are clearly no longer competent at paying people what they are worth, nor are they competent at keeping housing affordable while labor wages lag . . . .Report
Local governments impact housing prices through zoning and permits. Take Portland for example, it drastically restricts the housing supply through the urban growth boundary and zoning.Report
Mmmmm Philip.. not to pick on you but the high price of housing is directly attributable, in every market it occurs in, to government action- specifically government (mostly NIMBY dominated local government) throwing up large amounts of regulatory obstacles to or outright preventing the construction of new supplies of housing.
I agree strongly with your overall point but housing is a terrible terrible example.Report
The high price of housing is only partially due to Nimby based regulations – a great many Nimby reg free cities have similar issues. the salary issues is a far greater problem, and that seems to be way more market driven then any part of the equation. Frankly loosing the NIMBY regs won’t necessarily help – builders still won’t build if they can’t make the bucks they want to make under that new regime.Report
Such as where? I don’t hear about astronomical housing prices in Houston.
I also have to disagree with your salary point. If you could wave a magic wand at these markets and double everyones’ salary then housing costs would simply double to eat that increase.
Builders build to get the most profits they can get. The only time I’d expect they’d stop building is if they’d have to take a loss on building.Report
Are you responding to this article?
How Houston Moved 25,000 People From the Streets Into Homes of Their Own
The nation’s fourth-largest city hasn’t solved homelessness, but its remarkable progress can suggest a way forward.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-people.html?referringSource=articleShareReport
Uh, no I’m not but good for Houston! If anything it might bolster my point since Houston is rather famously light on gummint zoning regulations.Report
I can agree with this but also notice how similar it is to the leftist critique of globalism, that small local farms are preferable to globalized industrial foodstream.
The critique can’t work as a broad principle, but only as a specific targeted one.
Which functions are best handled locally and what empirical evidence supports that, and so on.Report
Kristen,
You should follow the examples of Freddie and others and start your own substack subscription. You would be extremely popular and probably make some money from your writing. You continue to write the most interesting stuff on OT.Report
And speaking of Freddie, I used to disagree with absolutely everything he wrote. I mean everything. Now he is one of my favorite writers.Report
Who knew Roger, of all people, would be a big fan of a Marxist.Report
Well, to be fair, Freddie is an amazing writer.Report