Socialism is Anti-Choice and Anti-Life

Kristin Devine

Kristin has humbly retired as Ordinary Times' friendly neighborhood political whipping girl to focus on culture and gender issues. She lives in a wildlife refuge in rural Washington state with too many children and way too many animals. There's also a blog which most people would very much disapprove of https://atomicfeminist.com/

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186 Responses

  1. Pinky says:

    My only complaint is that you used the word “pinky”, which will throw me off when I do a comment search. Otherwise, excellent.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    If only there were cities, or counties, or even entire states where this radical theory of, how do you call it, “conservatism” could be put into practice and tested!

    If only the empirical effects of tax and regulatory cuts could be quantified and studied!Report

  3. Greg In Ak says:

    Hyperbole is the enemy of a good argument and i have no idea socialism is even doing here. Criticize libs, through there is plenty of strawman and weakman arguments here, but we’re not socialists. Criticizing the often dim tone of our debates but calling others anti life is ironic.

    Actually i know you can find a lot of libs, like me, who like to cut a bunch of harmful regs, crony capitalism and far more efficiently deliver services.

    This kind of thing “And I know 100% without a doubt that liberals don’t have any answers beyond “more money, more programs, more failure, pls terminate your pregnancy to keep this Ship of Fools afloat.”

    Is just same old poo throwing that you seem to not want. Cause i’ve never met a lib who said. “This program is terrible, lets give it more money because i like failing.” There are plenty of debates about what works and what doesn’t and if you think conservatives are always right and libs always wrong then that is partisanship.Report

    • Patrick in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      “According to this concept, pro-life people only care about babies till they’re born, and then they don’t care what happens to them, because they tend to be Republicans, and those big fat meanie pants failed to sign off on every item on the Democrats’ social spending wish list.”

      Is certainly a rock-solid good faith reading of the the criticism, yeah.Report

  4. Oscar Gordon says:

    Being the libertarian I am, for me it’s not about the lack of welfare spending, it’s the failure of reason. Conservatives are OK with kids not being able to drink, or smoke, or buy guns under the age of 18/21, but they can be parents?

    Conservatives very often resist easy to get and/or free birth control (because poor people can’t afford the time off for a Dr. visit, or the cost of the visit, or the drugs themselves), but are OK with poor people being parents.

    Conservatives don’t seem too inclined to restrict the rights of a birth mother with regards to adoption* (as I am sure you know, a large disincentive to adopting a child is the ability of the birth mother to change her mind, it certainly turned my wife & I off from it). Same goes for foster kids of abusive or neglectful parents.

    Conservatives aren’t very interested in making sure fathers are paying their fair share*.

    Conservatives don’t seem interested in making sure that pre- & post-natal care of the mother & child are covered by insurance* or medicaid**.

    *Not that they necessarily want adoption to be harder, or deadbeat dads to skate, or for new moms to have ruinous medical bills, but it’s not really a priority for them they way abortion is.

    **I think medicaid covers some of it, but I’m not sure how much.Report

  5. Philip H says:

    I find it infuriating that an avowed libertarian is advocating that the state be allowed, indeed forced, to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      I don’t think that going in and doing tubal ligations to be reversible upon demonstration of a sufficient GPA is the answer, though.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

        what are you even talking about?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          Oh, I assumed that you supported Policy X because you disagreed with Proposition P and was disagreeing with your support of Policy X.

          (I suppose to give the full effect, I should have judged you as morally inferior due to your support of Policy X…)Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

            My firm belief is that birth control and abortion decisions should be between a woman and her doctor. She should be free to involve her partner or not. The state – whether federal or local – has no business in that decision.

            And I remain flummoxed that libertarians are so in support of eliminating that choice.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              Eh, I’m not flummoxed by it.

              It has to do with assumptions about the moral status of the clump of cells.

              If you believe that said clump has a moral status equal to that of, say, a Mexican, it becomes a little more understandable for some people to argue that no human is illegal and they should be allowed to cross the border.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                so fetus = person = has more rights then its mom?

                Interesting position. Tell me, what’s the equivalent for men?Report

              • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

                Honestly don’t know why y’all engage him at all on this culture war stuff. It’s quite clear he’s not arguing in good faith.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Chris says:

                Sometimes I do it because I want a good laugh. Other times I do it because I want to make sure his bad faith and illogic are recorded for posterity. Very occasionally I do it because the words he strings together don’t actually make any sense and I genuinely need more words.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to Chris says:

                I believe a famous French philosopher had a good quote about those who argue and delight in bad faith.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                so fetus = person = has more rights then its mom

                I wouldn’t argue that. I’d more argue that the clump of cells has a moral status equivalent to, say, a person. Not, like, a citizen but, like, a foreigner.

                I think the argument isn’t that “they have more rights than women!” it’s that “you invited them into the country, you should let them cross the border”.

                Yes, yes. “What about rapeincestthemotherslifeindanger” is a good counter-argument to make.

                But jumping from rapeincestthemotherslifeindanger to “therefore sex-selection abortions are okay” is a jump.

                Tell me, what’s the equivalent for men?

                I think the argument is that if it’s not okay to abort females, it’s not okay to abort males either.Report

              • Fish in reply to Jaybird says:

                At this point even I have to wonder what in the fish you’re even talking about.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Fish says:

                Okay, this one can be confusing:

                1) It’s possible to see the clump of cells as having moral worth in and of itself
                2) With this assumption, terminating the life contained in this clump of cells deliberately is, itself, a moral act. But, like, in the bad way.
                3) But, you may say, how can the clump of cells have moral value
                4) The people who think that it does think that the clump of cells is, like, a person
                5) There are tons of examples of persons who are not seen as having the equivalent moral value to, like, real people. They include minorities and foreigners.

                Seriously, the left used to have debates about abortion. As recently as the 90’s. Jesse Jackson famously noted that a lot of the discussions about the moral status of the fetus mirrored discussions of slaves.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                What’s confusing here?

                This is the basic bog-standard American Evangelical/ Roman Catholic argument that has been made for 50 years now.

                You have a moral sense of the value of a fetus. So do I.
                You have a moral sense of smoking marijuana. So do I.
                You have a moral sense of circumcision. So do I.

                How does a free and democratic society resolve these various moral positions?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The first thing I’d suggest is a shared moral language.

                Because talking about this as if we not only don’t see the clump of cells as being more than a skin tag but we cannot see how someone else could possibly see it as anything *BUT* that could lead us to a place where the Supreme Court rules that Texas can have a law banning abortion and we will have no idea what to do with that situation except threaten violence.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Considering that violence in the abortion debate in the US post-Roe has only been committed by the side supporting that texas law …Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                That’s not true. There have been attacks on “crisis pregnancy centers”, for example.

                Did you not know that?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                No I didn’t.

                According to Google the incidents all seem to have occurred within the last month or so. They were all focused on property damage – eg fire bombing empty clinics and vandalism.

                “Pro-life” violence has killed people. Over several decades. One of these things is still not like the other.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                And, according to the pro-lifers, abortions are, themselves, violence that result in the loss of a human life.

                Now, I know that *YOU* don’t believe that.

                But, seriously, they do stuff like quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Did you know that Bonhoeffer was executed for trying to kill Hitler? Like, the real Hitler back in the 1940’s during WWII?

                He’s considered a “great” theologian, even.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Bonhoeffer was executed after a show trial with no additional evidence other then his being part of the German Intelligence ABWHER – from which a plot did indeed hatch to kill Hitler. He was never actually accused of being part of the plot or of having done anything. Just being in a group.

                Can you imagine being hanged naked for being part of a pro-marijuana group? That’s what happened to him.

                And while he clearly opposed abortion on a theological basis, he never advocated for, nor likely would have supported violence to prevent it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                I admit to never before encountering the argument that Bonhoeffer was innocent.

                In any case, among the more radical of the “so-called” pro-lifers, they believe that he was guilty. And, get this, they think that it’s *GOOD* that he was (allegedly) guilty.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

                Heh, next up: Maximilian Kolbe taking the easy way out.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well you’re just restating the problem.

                How does a free and democratic society develop a shared moral language?

                For the sake of argument, assume the moral language to be shared is something you find objectionable.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                How does a free and democratic society develop a shared moral language?

                After the fact? I don’t know that there’s a way to do that.

                But, if there is, a starting point is to notice that you don’t have one. (Maybe we could explore whether we ever did, of course. Maybe we could look and see if anything like that even exists anywhere on the planet. If it does, see if it exists in multiple places. If it does, maybe see what those multiple places have in common with each other on a macro level.)

                For the sake of argument, assume the moral language to be shared is something you find objectionable.

                Finding it objectionable is a start, I guess. (It’s better than finding it incomprehensible that someone has a language that isn’t mine.)

                Now, I’d want to point out, that I’m not (necessarily) pushing for agreeing on the *ANSWERS* to the moral problems.

                At this point I’m pushing for a common syntax and vocabulary.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                So is “Unborn baby” the correct vocabulary, or is it “fetus”‽Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I was deliberately using the term “clump of cells” above, Chip.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You have a moral sense of slavery. So do I.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                “Tell me, what’s the equivalent for men?”

                That’s only a stumbling block if you assume that men and women are identical in sexual function. They’re not, and no law or policy that insists that they are is going to mesh with reality.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                I assume women and men are equivalent before the law in terms of their rights in a secular society. Sexual function has nothing to do with that.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                Please square this with the phrase “my money, my rules”. I’m totally cool with you doing what ever you want with your money. You take my money or other people’s money, and want to do that, nope. I/we get input on how you spend other people’s money.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                I’m not suggesting that your money or anyone else’s money needs to be involved. I believe its the woman’s choice whether to be pregnant. She gets to decide, and certain ly can and even should consult her doctor and her partner if she has one. But she has to bear the medical risk and a substantial portion of the financial burden for the kid.

                So I guess “Her money – her choice.”Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                Not if public money is used/partially used to fund her medical care, her pregnancy termination, or any other ancillary costs associated with either. Then it becomes a public policy debate on how to use public funds.

                “The state – whether federal or local – has no business in that decision.” Except if they received subsided medical care right?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                Nope. If a woman is receiving subsidized medical care she and her doctor get to make her decisions.

                Unless you want real life death panels created . . . .Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                Interesting how the recipients are the only people who can make decisions on how to spend other peoples money…ie there’s no possible way to control costs. Do you carry that thread to the point of saying that the gov’t should just out and confiscate some peoples property because other people need medical care? Tell me where you draw the line.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Damon says:

                This is an echo of my comment about how libertarians struggle with the Third Actor Agency problem.

                Where two agents ask a third party to perform valuable services like police protection or adjudication or whatever in exchange for payment.

                The third party inevitably has agency, and develops an agenda which may be contrary to the two original actors.

                Like, the state intercedes in between a buyer and seller of unpasteurized milk and refuses to allow the transaction to go forward.

                The question isn’t really “Can the third party intercede?” because yeah, it certainly can always do this, and always has the power to simply refuse to engage in the first place.

                The question for us as citizens is “Do we want it to intercede here or there?”

                The reason libertarians struggle with this is that most often, their desired agenda for the third party is not what the majority wants, and so they are left being forced to accept intercessions they don’t prefer.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Damon says:

                Big props to every petty dictator and HOA big boss out there. Way to give them all power. Strong move for freedom.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Libertarians restricting other people’s liberty – gotta love it I guess.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

                “so fetus = person = has more rights then its mom?”

                Why does mom have more rights than the fetus?

                No, no. No! Don’t do that thing where you sputter and fume and babble “I don’t…I can’t…what you…don’t how…” and affect a shocked incomprehension and call me a bastard for even asking you this and try to make the argument be “your a awful persin”. Answer the question. Why does the mother have more rights than the fetus?

                “Well but how can you believe” no! we aren’t talking about me! We’re talking about you! You very clearly believe that the mother has more rights than the fetus. Why do you believe that?

                “But you don’t how don’t you how you believe that you don’t you don’t how” This is not about me, this is about you. This is about whether you have the capability to act like an actual adult human being with a functioning brain, whether you have the ability to back up anything you say you believe; or whether it’s just reflexive own-the-cons socially-conditioned defiance.Report

              • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

                The woman in question is a fully formed human being. The fetus, until a certain point in its gestation, isn’t and can’t survive without her. She has the right, until that point, to not be pregnant.

                Anything else you’d like to know?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                Would you really draw the line at viability?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                If a line needs to be drawn, yes. After viability – under the wildly divergent legal schema we have now, the percentage of abortions drops off dramatically. Which is one of the reasons that I detest all the rhetoric around Partial Birth and Third Trimester abortion. Those procedures are only ever done out of medical necessity. And yet the have become the boogey men of the pro-forced birth movement.

                Abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon, and represent 1% of all abortions in the US.

                https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/

                But again, this is a decision the state, in a secular nation like the US, has no business being a part of. This is a decision between a woman, her doctor, and her God.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                You just said that the fetus isn’t a human being until a certain point in its gestation. Now, either you brought that up as a dodge, or you meant it. If you meant it, you accept that a fetus is a human being beyond viability, which means it can no longer be a decision between the woman, her doctor, and her God.

                You also haven’t demonstrated why viability grants personhood.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                I accept two things – first only 1% of abortions occur after viability, and generally only for medical reasons. So prohibitions on abortion after viability are a red herring. And even then, if an abortion is considered its between a woman, her doctor and her God.

                Second I accept that a a fetus isn’t a person until viability. Biology tells me so. Hell the Old Testament tells me so.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I can’t tell if you’re giving yourself wiggle room or you don’t see the contradiction. When you say that a fetus isn’t a person until viability, are you saying that a fetus is a person upon viability? And therefore wouldn’t an action that ends a person’s life be a matter for the state?

                Also, if viability is a red herring because only 1% of all abortions occur after viability, is it also true that rape and incest exceptions are red herrings because they account for 1% of all abortions? Far less than 1% of all students will be shot at school – are school shootings a red herring?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                If 99% of abortions occur in the first trimester, then trying to ban abortions to prevent the 1% that occur after viability is a red herring – especially since those abortions are medically necessary (or so the link I posted outlines). Women in the US aren’t indiscriminately killing their fetuses after viability. They are making really, really emotionally fraught decisions about their potential children. They are doing so in a medical setting, often after exhausting other alternatives. The state has no business in that decision.

                Rape and incest exceptions are not red herrings because, again, those abortions occur in the first trimester.

                You already know my position on school shootings, gun violence and gun ownership.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                OK, this is more a comment to the audience – I think I’ve sufficiently demonstrated the contradictions in Philip’s reasoning. I’m not trying to go out on a mic drop, but I just don’t see any point in continuing this.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

                It’s always easier when you grade your own papers.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                The fetus is a person when the fetus can survive outside of the mother. The fetus has a right to live that supersedes the mothers right to abort when removing the fetus from the mother does not represent a serious risk to the life of the fetus or the mother.

                Just to clarify, I am not saying that an exceptionally healthy fetus can be safely removed and survive outside the mother, and I am not saying a statistically average fetus can be safely removed and survive outside of the mother.

                I am saying that the fetus being medically evaluated in any specific case, can be safely separated from the mother and survive in a NICU.

                I say this because most of the time, when a fetus is aborted after 21-24 weeks, it is because the fetus will either kill the mother before birth, or the fetus will not survive after birth.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I say this because most of the time, when a fetus is aborted after 21-24 weeks, it is because the fetus will either kill the mother before birth, or the fetus will not survive after birth.

                Which was my point the whole time, but somehow Pinky has decided that riddles my argument with contradictions that make me no longer worthy of engaging with.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

                “The woman in question is a fully formed human being. The fetus, until a certain point in its gestation, isn’t and can’t survive without her.”

                A spirited defense of eugenics. Well done!Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

        lolReport

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

        What’s the current state of the BC implant (depropravera?)Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          From what I understand, the Depo shot is still in wide use and is more or less trivial at this point. The whole implanted rod in the upper arm thing that was big in the 90’s ended up having a lot of side effects and isn’t in use anymore. (Which is too bad. Reversible BC that was good for five years? Nice! Of course, it was too good to be true. We used to make jokes about driving around with an airsoft gun loaded with that stuff.)Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

      Under wicked Godless socialism, a woman’s body is the property of the state.

      Under God-fearing American capitalism, her body is kept in the safety of her husband’s care.Report

  6. Chris says:

    Man, I wish American conservatives knew what socialism is.

    Or understood the relationship between market economies/capitalism and the welfare state. I’d settle for that.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Chris says:

      Shout out to me 20 years ago on this very blog. “At least libertarians know what socialism is so we can have more sensible conversations then with conservatives who scream that every single thing is socialism.” Those were the days.Report

      • Chris in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        Coincidentally I was just having a conversation about how bad the libertarian understanding of capitalism and socialism is ;).

        That said, yeah, libertarians of the old world (not of today; what has happened to libertarianism in this country is, well, quite revealing) at least tend to be much better read than conservatives or liberals, so it’s possible to have interesting conversations with them. This was definitely true of OT’s commentariat back when there were a significant number of smart libertarians here.Report

    • Black Gold in reply to Chris says:

      If only the welfare state were the cause of our woes!Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chris says:

      To be slightly fair, I don’t think most DSA types are exactly calling for the 1945 Labour platform either.Report

      • Chris in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        DSA is pretty diverse, ideologically. At least since 2017, when its membership grew, and shifted left, pretty rapidly. The most active people tend to range from Nordic-style social democrats to actual commies and anarchists, while the less active (but still often visible, especially in activist and other political circles) members tend to be left liberals who are often pretty uncomfortable with the Marxist/communist/anarchist rhetoric and iconography of the more active folks. Though I think DSA is moving left steadily, and there will eventually be a crisis as the organization, at the local and perhaps the national level, seeks to split itself from the Democratic Party entirely (though I think this is several years away).Report

  7. LeeEsq says:

    Capitalism and socialism are terms that are void for vagueness at this point. Both basically mean a market economy but when people say capitalism they mean something with less regulation by the government and less welfare spending. When people call themselves socialists they basically mean New Deal/Great Society liberalism or social democracy. That is market economics but with government regulation and welfare spending rather than the government owning the means of production. The number of people who mean the later can be counted without losing track. That doesn’t prevent the Right from invoking scary socialism when somebody is really talking about New Deal/Great Society liberalism.Report

    • Pinky in reply to LeeEsq says:

      I don’t think anyone who calls himself a socialist is content with New Deal / Great Society level governmental programs. They likely support the inclination that drove those two eras’ legislation. I’d call that inclination “statism”. Oddly, I think the only difference between the statist’s 20-year goal and the socialist’s is who owns the means of production.

      I think the terms “capitalist” and “socialist” have value as they’re conventionally used. They indicate opposite directions that people would want to see things go. I don’t consider either of them accurate to their original meanings, but what are you gonna do?Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

        Socialist in general would not support the inclination of the New Deal since the ND was not remaking the economy as a socialist econ. Very diff. Socialists want far more to be run by the public and kept out of a free market. FDR/LBJ were really very not all socialists.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Either way, though, self-identification as a socialist is a huge red flag. Someone who self-identifies as a socialist either does so while having no idea what socialism actually is, or actually endorses socialism. Neither is a good look for anyone over the age of fifteen.Report

  8. Damon says:

    Kristin, this is not the time to be discussing this. WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING THE INSURRECTION. THAT’S WHERE OUR GOV’T NEEDS TO DEVOTE IT’S ATTENTION. BRINGING THIS UP JUST SHOWS YOU’RE UNAMERICAN.

    🙂Report

  9. Saul Degraw says:

    I somehow guessed who wrote this article just by the title. I agree with Leeesq, the term socialism is currently overly broad and void for vagueness because it seems to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean. This includes right-leaning people who want it to mean “anything slightly to the left of complete anarcho-capitalism” and the current batch of under-45s who use it to mean a mixed market economy with decent regulations to prevent things from going off the rails. Almost no one uses it to mean the government controls the means of production which is the original definition of socialism.

    Is socialism anti-choice and anti-life? I suppose this depends on what a speaker means by pro-choice and pro-life. I think a robust welfare state can give people more choices and freedom of opportunity. How many people want to start businesses but are scared to because they can’t risk losing employer-provided health insurance?Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      How many people want to start businesses but are scared to because they can’t risk losing employer-provided health insurance?

      I’ve been seeing this talking point for years, and while it may have had some merit ten years ago for certain people with pre-existing conditions, it’s long past its sell-by date.

      With guaranteed issue and community rating, health insurance is just another living expense, no more of an obstacle to starting a business than the need to buy food, pay the rent/mortgage, or buy gas and pay for car insurance.

      There’s nothing magical about employer-provided health insurance. It’s just something that people expect as a perk for path-dependent historical reasons. In Japan there are probably a bunch of people who are afraid to start businesses because they can’t risk losing company housing.Report

  10. Brent F says:

    Counterpoint to CATO. The war on poverty was a tremendous success, American poor are no longer poor like they were in the 1960s. https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-war-on-poverty-was-a-success?s=r

    Now American poor are poor in new ways, because its no longer the 1960s. Capitalism got the win of making a massively wealthier and more productive society over those 60 years, but it still has to suit up on go on the field to deal with new problems.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Brent F says:

      pretty good analogy.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Brent F says:

      Social Security has been a smashing success in lowering the rate of poverty among the elderly.
      Medicare is so successful those old shouty Republicans will cut you if you touch it.

      Government regulations have been so successful that things which were common a century ago, like disastrous building fires are almost unheard of.

      The air in American cities is cleaner than it was when Kristin was born, the water in the lakes, streams and rivers is cleaner, the soil less toxic.

      By virtually any measurement, the New Deal and the postwar round of liberal managed capitalism had a unqualified record of success in producing prosperity and overall improvement in society.

      But for the past 40 some years, there has been a parallel experiment conducted. Republicans have been cutting taxes and regulations everywhere they hold power.

      What is their track record? Have tax cuts ever increased revenue? Reduced deficits? Has deregulation led to better outcomes?

      During the Cold War, the difference between Communism and Western managed capitalism was stark- anyone could just look at one and the other and see for themselves the outcome.

      Can anyone point me to something like that? Superior outcomes due to conservative principles?

      Or are we still waiting for Godot, er, True Conservatism?Report

      • Brent F in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        That suggests an interesting project. Looking at which areas of America have done well and poorly over the past 40 years and see if that says anything about what’s working and what isn’t.

        From 550 km away, it seems to me that both team red and team blue have some W and Ls to tally.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Brent F says:

          It should be obvious and universally agreed that the grand experiment of the 20th century, the struggle that marked almost all politics during that century, is over and resolved.

          The rise and fall of Communism and the ensuing history of Russia and China demonstrates conclusively the following conclusions:

          1. Marxist/ Leninist socialism is less capable of producing prosperous economies than managed market economies.

          Its important here to pause and note the term “managed market” rather than “capitalism”.

          Because in addition to the failed economies of the Soviet Union, we also have the empirical evidence of countries like Haiti. There are markets there, plenty of private ownership of capital and property, but mismanagement of the economy stymies prosperity.
          Which leads to the second conclusion:

          2. The choice of economic systems is only one variable and maybe not even the driving one. Russia and China both have plenty of markets now, but like Haiti they are mismanaged and politically repressive.
          The 20th century (and this very essay by Kristin) was like one long Nixon-Khrushchev Kitchen Debate, where it was just assumed that public ownership of capital led to one inevitable destination, while the private led to another equally inevitable point.

          But they don’t “lead” anywhere.
          There is a massive amount of public ownership and control and management of the factors of production in the United States, maybe even more than in Russia, yet the US is head and shoulders superior to Russia in terms of prosperity and freedom.

          No one has ever found the magic potion, the skeleton key that unlocks universal prosperity and freedom. About the closest we can say is that carefully managed markets with strong social safety nets plus a diligent and responsible citizenry can produce good results most of the time.Report

          • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            Really good comment Chip and I think it gets to the fundamental problem with the way this debate plays out, i.e. a lot of tilting at abstractions and not a lot of vision.Report

          • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            This is the mainstream American view of the 20th century, which I find very odd, because there are many in depth, critical analyses of that century, beginning fairly early within it, that all provide very different pictures from this mainstream American view.

            I’m reading one I really like, right now, even if its analysis suggests a rather unpleasant near future. I highly recommend it, and the literature that came after it (it was written in 1994):

            https://www.amazon.com/dp/1844673049/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_0B9WKD9S8NTNQDDA0QWE?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

            Amusingly, given current mainstream discourse, one of the primary motivations for the forming the Institute for Social Research, and the creation of critical theory, in 1929, was not to create a world of gay space communists, as some might have you believe, but to understand what the hell had gone wrong with communism in the Soviet Union, a task made more urgent in the 30s, though quickly supplanted by the rise of fascism and Nazism, but still on the minds of Frankfurt School thinkers well into the 60s (e.g., in One Dimensional Man).

            You’ll find discussions of this, and of the whole of the 20th century, in virtually any Western Marxist literature to this day, but also in non-Marxist history and political science. Yet here we are, with facile narrative of a competition between two competing, diametrically opposed systems for organizing society, and may the best system win. Shrug.Report

            • Roger in reply to Chris says:

              “the creation of critical theory, in 1929, was not to create a world of gay space communists”.

              Another great example of “positive externalities”?Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Chris says:

              In my entirely biased opinion, “what went wrong” with Communism wasn’t just that it was Communism, but that it occurred in Russia.

              A quick look at Russian history before, during, and after Communism seems to show that whether it operates under monarchy, Communism, or globalist capitalism, Russia has an intractable inability to produce either prosperity or freedom.

              A comparison of say, British history shows that even with staggeringly high rates of socialized factors of production, Britain still was able to produce much higher levels of prosperity, freedom and happiness.

              Such that, when the British people eventually decided to change, they were free enough to simply privatize what had been socialized- No gulags, no revolution, just a prosperous and free people selecting a different path. In their case, the “inevitable” path of socialism turned out to be not to inevitable after all.

              Which is kinda my point, that economic systems matter a whole lot less than all the other variables of political and social culture.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Strong agree. Russia is a great example of country ruled by violent dictators who were fine living on a mountain of the skulls of their own people. The names and philosophies changed but that is it.Report

              • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                A common belief among socialists, beginning in effect during the Russian revolution, is that the failure of the same revolution in Germany, for which the Russian revolution was essentially seen as a sort of spark to ignite the flame, pretty much ended the prospects of the project. So yeah, leaving Russia effectively isolated created some very real problems, not the least of which was the oxymoronic concept of “Socialism in One Country.”

                That said, the massive increase in Russia’s production capacity and overall quality of life that came so rapidly after the revolution, and the massive decrease in quality of life that came after the fall of the Soviet Union, suggest that the system wasn’t entirely a failure, even if it was highly imperfect even by its own original theoretical standards.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chris says:

                the massive increase in Russia’s production capacity and overall quality of life that came so rapidly after the revolution…

                You are putting on to Communism what is best explained by the Industrial Revolution. Witness the rest of the world which also got improvements in the quality of life even without Communism.

                Then the USSR fell apart and we learned that it had always been lying about it’s GDP and other figures. So evaluating how well they did is kind of like evaluating how well Enron did when much of the answer is they were cooking the books.

                Then they became a Kleptocracy devoted to resource extraction and hiding money overseas.

                Arguing the Kleptocracy is worse ignores Poland and the rest of the puppet(slave?) states which are now free and not being forced to do things at gun point for Russia’s benefit. It’s like asking why the slave owners are worse off now that their slaves are free.Report

              • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I mean one could argue that only in Russia were the masses immiserated enough and the elites arrogant/foolish enough to allow the Communists to actually get a chance to overthrow the system and try to set up one of their own.

                Or, I suppose one could counter that once it happened in Russia all the other fat cats around the globe were on notice and moderated their fat cattery accordingly.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

                The historian Orlando Figres is highly critical of the Communists but also clear eyed that some kind of Revolution was inevitable given the steadfast inability of the Romanovs to liberalize and reform.

                The Bolsheviks were never a majority party but they were the most organized and uniform of the various revolutionary groups. Plus they had some dumb luck of being the majority at the right places and times to take over. After Nicholas II abdicated the throne.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                Watching Russia’s history since 1992 has convinced me that, had the Revolution failed and the Czar survived, the two most likely alternative histories were:
                1. The aristocracy grasped the message of the toppling monarchies across Europe after the Great War, and followed suit and adopted democratic regimes, with the monarchy reserved as a figurehead.

                2. But far, far more likely given Russian history, the aristocracy would have toppled the weak and ineffectual Nicholas in a coup and replaced him with someone who was strong, ruthless, someone who was not squeamish about what it would take to Make The Rabble Obey and get those Ukrainians, Poles, Hungarians, and assorted Slavs back in line.

                Someone like, oh say, Josef Stalin.
                In other words, I firmly believe that communism or no, much of the 20th century Russian history would have been soaked in blood.Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                Speaking of Figes, this was the big important new history book when I was in college and we read it in the class I took on revolutionary Russia:

                https://www.amazon.com/Peoples-Tragedy-Russian-Revolution-1891-1924/dp/071267327X

                Everyone (read historians) was excited about the open access Russia was giving to its records back then. Definitely worth reading for anyone interested in the subject.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                And the problem with East Germany was that they tried it with Germans. North Korea’s problem was Koreans. China’s problem was the Chinese.

                You wouldn’t believe what Cuba’s problem was.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                If you are trying to refute the thesis,, you should not pick examples that support it..

                Why were Germany, Korea, and Cuba illiberal states before adopting socialism?

                The inevitable outcome of capitalism?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                How did West Germany do in comparison to East Germany?

                Like, you took two systems and put them right next to each other and you could see, in real time, which system worked well and which system worked less well. Like it was a science experiment!

                Or you could do the same with North Korea vs. South Korea. North Vietnam vs. South Vietnam!Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to Jaybird says:

                East Germany was a puppet state controlled by the Russians. West Germany had a viable socialist party with the S.D.P.Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                The key difference is social democracy accepts the legitimacy of and operates within liberal democracy.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yes, and as with any science experiment, you need to develop a theory that explains the empirical evidence.

                If Russia, China, North Korea, and East Germany were failed dystopias “because socialism”, were the presocialist versions of these states failed “because capitalism?

                Can you present a theory which explains their failure, prior to adopting a different economic system?

                For that matter, can you present a theory explains the failed dystopia which is now capitalist Russia?

                And what are we calling China now?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I didn’t call them “failed dystopias”.

                Is that how you are seeing them? If so, why do these attempts at “socialism” keep resulting in “failed dystopias”?

                And what are we calling China now?

                That’s a great question. Is it still “Communist”?

                Do we have any Marxists on the board who can explain whether China has realized Marxism in any sense of the word?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Do you have a theory, anything at all, to explain the empirical events of the countries that you so eagerly named?

                “Because socialism” fails as a theory because it can’t account for the fact that every single developed nation that you have named has socialized large parts of their economies and according to you, are wildly successful.

                Yet the world is littered with countries which have almost no socialism at all, yet are miserable and poor.

                How do you explain this?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                to explain the empirical events of the countries that you so eagerly named?

                If you have a list of countries I should have named instead, please provide it.

                Maybe there are better examples of 20th Century Socialism than East Germany, China, North Vietnam, North Korea, and Cuba.

                What are they? I’d like to see them. The next time we argue about Socialism, I can use them as examples instead of the ones that immediately came to mind.

                “Because socialism” fails as a theory because it can’t account for the fact that every single developed nation that you have named has socialized large parts of their economies and according to you, are wildly successful.

                I wouldn’t call them “wildly” successful. I’d merely compare them to their neighbor that has a compass directional name and say “which of these two was better to live in?” and “which of these two had net gains from people escaping from the other?”

                Yet the world is littered with countries which have almost no socialism at all, yet are miserable and poor. How do you explain this?

                Something like Thomas Hobbes and maybe that line from Heinlein:

                Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded – here and there, now and then – are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
                This is known as bad luck.

                Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                So let me get this straight:

                If a nation chooses to be liberal and embrace freedom and creativity, if it supports people who take risks, offering them both the reward of individual success, but also the security of being able to fail without starving, then it builds wealth.

                Empirical examples to support this theory include all the modern industrialized nations which have private property, managed markets and social safety nets.

                By Jove, I think you’ve got it!Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, which countries should I use as examples in the future? You criticized me for picking the ones I did.

                Which ones should I have picked to avoid criticism?

                Do you see why I’d want to compare East Germany to West Germany instead of comparing it to Nazi Germany?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’ve already explained your theory, and I accept it, and celebrate it.

                Liberal societies create wealth, illiberal ones don’t.

                Take the win.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “If Russia, China, North Korea, and East Germany were failed dystopias “because socialism”, were the presocialist versions of these states failed “because capitalism?”

                you’re aware that there was no “presocialism” North Korea or East Germany, right?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                as with any science experiment, you need to develop a theory that explains the empirical evidence.

                We like twin studies because, at their ideal, we get the same people with just one factor changing.

                East/West Germany (etc) are seriously damning because they have the same people with the same society with only the economic systems different.

                Even if we think Russia was always headed for disfunction because of their culture, East Germany and the rest of the twins were clearly not.

                The implication is, even if Russia tends towards brutality, Communism likely made things a LOT worse. Like the difference between East and West Germany worse.Report

          • Roger in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            “About the closest we can say is that carefully managed markets with strong social safety nets plus a diligent and responsible citizenry can produce good results most of the time.”

            I too find much wisdom in this comment. The debate is over how “carefully managed” the markets need to be, and how “strong” the safety nets should be. But yeah, the winning sociology/political combination for the last century has been markets and safety nets.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Brent F says:

      A million years ago, we had a symposium about inequality. My argument, in a nutshell, was that Progress will have inequality baked into it. Like, the creation of the cell phone created haves when, before, nobody had a cell phone. Then we went from only investment bankers carrying bricks to investment bankers carrying $999 Razr phones to everybody having an opinion on iPhones vs. Androids.

      The massively wealthier and more productive society itself created inequality and addressing poverty in the future will mean providing the impoverished with things that have not yet been invented. Which seems weird.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Brent F says:

      There are two ways we can evaluate the success of the War on Poverty. Easy mode is asking whether it reduced post-transfer poverty. This is purely a matter of throwing enough money at the problem. Hard mode is asking whether it reduced pre-transfer poverty.

      I think it’s hard to deny that it’s been successful by the first measure but a failure by the second. The War on Poverty has successfully put a bandage over the problem of people being unable to provide for themselves and their families, but it hasn’t clearly made any progress at all in helping a larger share of the population achieve self-sufficiency.

      The pre-transfer poverty rate fluctuates with the business cycle, but there doesn’t seem to be a clear secular downward trend. The claim was that people in poverty just needed a hand up to break the cycle of poverty, and the War on Poverty has been failing to deliver on this for three generations.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        The claim was that people in poverty just needed a hand up to break the cycle of poverty, and the War on Poverty has been failing to deliver on this for three generations.

        One wonders what the structural reasons for that might be . . . .Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          Adjacent:

          Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H says:

          One with better critical thinking skills would first think to ask whether the balance of the evidence points to structural factors as the main issue here.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg says:

            Well, you have concluded that wealth transfers don’t mitigate poverty. Seems like structural issues are a good next step to interrogate.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              you have concluded that wealth transfers don’t mitigate poverty

              Here’s one of the things he said: “I think it’s hard to deny that it’s been successful by the first measure but a failure by the second.”Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

              I think he said wealth transfer do mitigate poverty, but the evidence that they solve poverty isn’t there.

              E.g. A person losses their job, and applies for assistance. The assistance may mitigate the loss of income, but a cash handout by itself is not going to solve the unemployment problem. The person needs to find a new job that has a sufficient wage. If it’s a straight, “The current job market sucks, finding a new job with a high enough wage takes time.” (see: the start of COVID), then cash handouts are probably a good thing. If the person isn’t just unemployed, but also unemployable (skill set is obsolete, they have mental health or substance abuse issues, etc.) then the cash handout doesn’t solve poverty.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        Discussion on Globalism:
        “We are rich! Incredibly wealthy, such that even the poorest among us would be the envy of medieval kings!”

        Discussion on the social safety net:
        “The war on poverty is over, and poverty won!”Report

  11. y10nerd says:

    I gotta say, while I stopped commenting here, I tend to read it every day and look at the comments. It’s nice to know that Kristin’s rants continue as a wonderful platter of resentments, deranged logic, and general paranoia. I had meant to write this in the last few posts, but I forgotten.

    I want to be clear – I do look down upon you from my elite tower, Kristin. Because well, yeah. And I will dramatically read your own writings to you in the reeducation camps. I am the fascist leader, Antifa V!

    (an aside- there are a ton of regulatory issues that we should be dealing with, that’s true! Fighting market concentration is useful)Report

  12. DavidTC says:

    It takes a very specific sort of glasses to deduce that the current problem with baby formula is due to _the government_.

    Yes, various states handing huge amounts of business to individual corporations is, perhaps, stupid, but the simple fact is that there are _plenty_ of industries where ‘four major supplies’ would be an _improvement_. The idea that we would have more than four major supplies without WIC involved in the market is honestly a little absurd.

    And as for regulation of what can go on the market: This is actually complete nonsense: The CNN article that is supposedly proving this is proving no such thing. A few choice quotes:

    Belldegrun and Funt’s formula had to meet all federal nutrient requirements, a long and arduous process.

    Ridiculous government making food meet nutritional requirements so stupid babies don’t starve to death. Dumb babies, too stupid to eat an orange or something if they don’t get enough vitamin C.

    They spent two years searching for a manufacturing partner before deciding to acquire a facility in the US to produce it themselves.

    Of those ‘five years’, two years were literally just wasted.

    They then built up the supply chain to direct source all the ingredients to ensure quality and safety,

    Wait, let me get this straight? People setting up a factory to make food had to create a _supply chain_ of ingredients? What is this absurd government regulation?!?!?! How dare the government…uh…require such a thing? I guess?

    They should work the way that all other food manufacturers work: Randomly ordering bulk ingredients off Amazon and looking into (But never quite taking the plunge) getting a Costco membership.

    and ran rigorous clinical trials over a six month period with 300 babies to test the safety and efficacy of their formula.

    Heh! We actually finally got into something that’s government regulation!

    Wait. What happens if you just, uh, use an existing formula instead of creating a new one.

    Happy Family used an existing supplier to reformulate with probiotic and organic ingredients an existing infant formula that was already approved for sale in the United States, so she wasn’t required to conduct clinical trials for the new formula.

    Oh, look! You can just use an existing formula that’s already been approved! You actually don’t have to come up with a new formulation.

    Wait, wait, rewind a second:

    Shazi Visram founded her Happy Family Organics baby food company in 2003 at her kitchen table.

    It quickly grew to become a leading organic baby food brand and was acquired by Danone 10 years later. Visram had started working on creating an organic infant formula for the brand in 2012. Happy Baby Organic Infant Formula hit store shelves in 2017

    In this article talking about how hard it is to enter the market, they just sorta glance by someone who did it pretty successfully…and then was _bought out_ by Danone, one of the four large companies that make all the formula.

    Maybe _that’s_ the actual problem, right there?

    This entire article is utter nonsense. Saying things like ‘Why haven’t new companies broken through in such a critical industry? There are just too many barriers to entry.’

    Um…you can ask that question about half of the entire corporate universe: Why are there so few companies in industry X? It’s a massive systemic problem due to the complete failure for the government to do anything about consolidation, including in tons of industries where there are much lower barriers to entry.

    Ooo, guess how many companies make insulin? Go ahead, guess. The answer is three. Not in the US, in the _world_.

    Seems weird how US regulation is stopping other people in other countries from making it! In fact, foreign companies _do_…a bit, somewhere around 4%. But those three companies have at least 96% of the worldwide market along with 100% of the US market.

    Weird. It’s almost as if larger companies are more successful and swallow smaller competitors as part of the normal action of the market, reduce the players in that market to as few as possible, which seems almost incomprehensible because it turns out that’s often a BAD THING, not only resulting in monopolies but sometimes resulting in accidental disasters as having distilling everything to a few sources can fall apart easily. But how can something the market does naturally be a BAD THING?!!!!!!1!!!1!!!!!! SYSTEM ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE!!! MUST BE SOCIALISM.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

      The fact that the FDA is corrupt/captured isn’t really a problem with “socialism”, per se.

      But it’s difficult to find a term for that sort of corruption/capture.

      Arguing that the wrong word is being used to criticize that particular type of corruption/capture seems to be putting emphasis on one of the parts of the problem that won’t go away if critics of the corruption/capture are successfully shamed.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

        No, that’s not my point. Maybe using two where the FDA was involved made that confusing.

        My point is that all markets that fit certain criteria gravitate towards just a few entities, by larger entities slowing buying up all their competitors. (In fact, many that _don’t_ fit that criteria gravitate towards it, but the ones that do fit basically _always_ gravitate that way)

        The criteria is that the products…

        1) …are required for survival. No luxuries.
        2) …have no real distinguishing traits, or at least not any decisions that are made based on that. (Like medication…different insulin medication is, technically, different, but people don’t actually choose it, their doctor does.)
        3) …basically have no real innovation possible, no one’s suddenly going to make advances. (Although sometimes, depending, the larger companies can just _buy_ the sudden innovation and keep like normal.)

        It’s hard to think of things not regulated by the FDA that are not luxuries.

        Cellular service providers, which are now down to three, but I guess you’d just argue those are still regulated by the government. (Cell phones, OTOH, do not fit under #2 and #3, so continue to have a somewhat working market still.)

        Um…CPUs are a good example. Two companies, sometimes another one popping in for a bit.

        Cosmetics are too. (No, cosmetics are not luxuries. Women are basically required to wear them.) I guess they are, also, technically regulated by the FDA, but I promise, those tests are pretty easy. There’s about seven of those (Estée Lauder Companies, L’Oréal, Unilever, Procter & Gamble, Shiseido, Johnson & Johnson, and Coty) that supply basically _all_ cosmetics, although that’s a little confusing because that’s an entire industry…if you pick a specific product, not all seven companies make it. Like I think only four of those companies make makeup?

        Oh, wait, no, Procter and Gamble just sold basically all of their cosmetics businesses to Coty. So really there’s only six now.

        So my point is: Anyone pretending that formula is caused by the FDA is being extremely silly. Considering it happens in any industry like that.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

          The formula problem isn’t “caused” by the FDA. But the FDA relieved part of the problem by allowing European formula that had been approved by the EMA into the country.

          It kinda reminds me of the epipen thing.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

      “Ooo, guess how many companies make insulin?”

      quite a few actually

      and in China alone, those other manufacturers coming online resulted in a 48% price cut in 2021Report

      • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

        Oh, yeah. I wanted to talk about that too. A million years ago, Scott Alexander wrote an essay about, among other things, insulin.

        Here’s the start of the relevant portion:

        The price of insulin is much too high. Vox argues that this is because of the “lax regulatory environment” and the “free market approach”, and that if we could just become socialist like all of the cool countries, everything would be fine.

        Insulin is off-patent. It was discovered almost a hundred years ago. But somehow, all the insulin sold in the US is brand-name. This is shocking and obviously the root of the problem. What’s going on? Vox links NEJM’s Why Is There No Generic Insulin?, but summarizes it by saying it’s “because companies have made those incremental improvements to insulin products, which has allowed them to keep their formulations under patent” and because “older insulin formulations have fallen out of fashion.”

        I am not diabetic. But if I were, I don’t think I would worry that much which kinds of insulin were vs. weren’t fashionable. What’s really going on?

        The fun part is when he starts to talk about Peru:

        But the NEJM article mentions that plenty of poorer countries do have biosimilar generic insulins, including such gleaming-high-tech bastions of cutting-edge pharmaceutical excellence as Peru. Which of the following do you think is true?:

        1. Peru has better technology than the US, and so is able to make cheap biosimilar insulin using processes that our own scientists and engineers can’t manage.

        2. Peru has a bigger market than the US, so there’s more money in creating generic insulin to sell to Peruvians than there is selling it to Americans.

        3. Peru has a better regulatory environment than the US, and this is enough to make producing biosimilar insulins cheap and easy.

        So… why is Peru able to sell insulin cheaply?Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

          4. The people selling insulin in Peru (Who are, for the record, the same people selling it everywhere) know Peru’s government would crack down on overpriced insulin, so do not attempt it. Whereas they know that the US government will _not_ do that, so are free to sell it at whatever cost they want.

          Incidentally, that is a hilariously stupid question by the stupid-as-ever Scott Alexander, because he seems completely unaware the stuff in Peru _is_ the same as the stuff sold in the US.

          It’s Humalog and Lantus, the exact same brand produced by the exact same people. It’s probably even produced in the same place, as those factories tend to be in Mexico or Puerto Rico.

          There is no hypothetical ‘better technology’ or ‘better regulatory environment’, and no one created ‘generic insulin’. It’s the exact thing sold both places. It’s just massively marked up in the US.

          Here, the Peru consulate will tell people what drugs that pharmacies sell in Peru and their prices, just type in humalog or lantus and pick a dropdown: http://opm.digemid.minsa.gob.pe/#/consulta-producto

          Stay dumbass, Scott. *throws off salute*Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

            So it’s #3? A better regulatory environment?Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

              The ‘regulatory environment in Peru’ does not make ‘producing biosimilar insulins cheap and easy’.

              In fact, I can’t find any evidence that Peru _has_ ‘biosimilar insulin’. The Vox article doesn’t say that, the Health Affairs article doesn’t, and I obviously can’t get to the NEJM.

              And more importantly, there’s no reason for it to have any of that. They just sell reasonably priced _name-brand_ insulin in Peru. It’s literally the stuff that biosimilars are trying to mimic.

              ‘Biosimilar’ only matters in countries where drug manufacturers are allowed massive markups so someone has to come along and figure out a way around their patents. No one really needs(1) biosimiliar Humalog when you can buy an actual Humanlog KwikPen for…*does calculations*…apparently 13 dollars. Even when adjusted for cost of living that’s like 30 dollars.

              Scott Alexander is more than likely just wrong about this, which is an interesting coincidence because he’s actually wrong about everything he’s ever said and every conclusion he’s ever drawn. If you think he’s right, what has actually happened is he was doubly-wrong: He was wrong, but then typo’d and was correct. True fact.

              The ‘regulatory environment in Peru’ actually makes it very hard to sell drugs at huge markups, and thus they do not get sold at huge markups.

              1) I mean, we actually _do_ need other people making it, because as I said this situation is incredibly frail and there are concerns other than the price. I guess I mean ‘No one bothers to try to compete because that price is, frankly, very low and it’s unlikely it would make a profit.’Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                I just did a google on “generic insulin peru” and got this.

                My quick google of “generic insulin” is that it’s called “isophane”.

                Isophane is mentioned in the Pan American Journal of Public Health report I linked above.Report

      • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

        that article doesn’t exactly refute his point – it notes the “big three” still manufacture most of the insulin, and in countries where there are other choices, only 13 get to choose – with only 32% of market share being held by those other providers. Sure, the Big Three don’t have good market penetration in China anymore, but do you really want US insulin supplies held hostage by a hostile foreign power? Really?Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

          “that article doesn’t exactly refute his point – it notes the “big three” still manufacture most of the insulin”

          his point was “there’s only three”

          he’s wrong

          it took about thirty seconds on Google to show that he was wrong

          and his related point was “it’s naïve to expect that competition will result in price decreases because this has not happened in the US market”

          and, um, it did

          and I’m sure you’re typing “well that’s China, where the government can just declare that it’s going to pay a particular price, so it’s hardly surprising to find that their domestic producers would charge less money!”

          and my reply is “you just admitted that the whole thing is run by the government, and that failures to provide goods to people who need them represent failures by the government and are hardly anything to do with capitalism or private industry, which is what we’ve been saying all along”Report

          • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

            his point was “there’s only three”

            Are you drunk?

            In fact, foreign companies _do_…a bit, somewhere around 4%. But those three companies have at least 96% of the worldwide market along with 100% of the US market.

            Gee, it’s almost as if I mentioned that explicitly.

            and his related point was “it’s naïve to expect that competition will result in price decreases because this has not happened in the US market”

            and, um, it did

            …you think my point is that it’s naive to expect that competition will result in price decreases? What the utter f*ck would you think that was my point?

            In fact, please point to anywhere I spoke about _prices_ AT ALL

            I have not spoken a single word about _prices_. I have spoken about market _fraility_.

            You know, like the other half of my post pointed out how the baby formula market had such frailty that the entire market collapsed when one factory shut down.

            and my reply is “you just admitted that the whole thing is run by the government, and that failures to provide goods to people who need them represent failures by the government and are hardly anything to do with capitalism or private industry, which is what we’ve been saying all along”

            Seriously, are you on drugs?

            What the hell are you talking about? I just ‘admitted the whole thing is run by the government’?

            Here’s the actual thing you pointed out: Literally six month ago, the Chinese government did some stuff to explicitly replace big Pharma.

            What’s your argument here? How exactly is what I said disputed by this? Is your assertation that it is _no longer_ 96% worldwide thanks to China deliberately focusing on local manufacturing?

            Let’s take a survery here: Is DensityDuck’s post a reasonable way to say ‘The things you have said are correct although China has recently taken steps to change that so that 96% number is outdated’?

            In fact…is there any evidence they are outdated? Because…that deal actually hasn’t gone into effect yet, it’s to take place in the second half of 2022.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

              “Seriously, are you on drugs?”

              from the looks of things you ought to be. did you forget again?

              “I have not spoken a single word about _prices_. I have spoken about market _fraility_.”

              you said something about insulin

              i replied to what you said about insulin

              in fact let’s quote what you said: “Ooo, guess how many companies make insulin? Go ahead, guess. The answer is three. Not in the US, in the _world_.”

              i understand that you are mad that your silly generalization was easily disproven by casual research

              but, y’know, sure, you didn’t actually say the word prices

              but that you would bring up insulin to not talk about prices seems like one of those “distractions via irrelevancy” things that you get so upset about when you think Jaybird’s doing it

              (because insulin is not, hasn’t been, and isn’t at risk for becoming subject to “frailty”, seeing as how there are actually dozens of companies making it all around the world)

              although actually from the looks of things you like being incredibly upset about things, at least what’s what I gather from watching you jack your hateboner all over Kristin’s postsReport

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

                i understand that you are mad that your silly generalization was easily disproven by casual research

                No, it’s not.

                The Congressional Research Service, in 2018, reported that over 90% worldwide insulin market was controlled by three companies.

                Is your premise that such a thing is no longer true? (As you think is evidenced by a Chinese deal that _hasn’t gone into effect yet_. All reporting on this deal says that China will start buying this stuff in the second half of 2022, which we are not at yet.).

                Or is it that the vague ‘over 90%’ that the Congressional Research Service said might not reach ‘96%’ that people who have actually done the math say, and do you have any evidence of _that_?

                Which incredibly minor quibble do you think ‘disproves’ my claim: That the amount of insulin provided by those three companies might only be between 91%-95% instead of 96%, or that the information I am I using might be outdated by six months? (Or, actually, not outdated at all, as, again, that deal has not actually started yet, so it’s more the information might be outdated _in the future_.)

                but that you would bring up insulin to not talk about prices seems like one of those “distractions via irrelevancy” things that you get so upset about when you think Jaybird’s doing it

                I brought up insulin because it’s a critical life-or-death market that is supplied by an incredibly few amount of companies. (Less than formula, in fact, which is why I picked it.) And thus any slight disruption of the market could cause disastrous shortages.

                You know, like baby formula, the thing we’re talking about.

                Except this is worldwide, not just in America.

                And my point is ‘Massive consolidation is the natural progression of quite a lot of markets (I didn’t get into it yet because I’m instead in this dumb discussion, but it happens in all stable non-flexible mandatory markets, which I would explain if I wasn’t instead doing this.), as evidenced by this other thing, it is not caused by government regulation and cannot be solved by not regulating the market’.

                I have no idea why you went to price. The price of insulin is, as a cause of this consolidation, pretty absurd in US, but that’s a different side effect of consolidation, my point is that consolidation causes _frailty_, which is an entirely different problem.

                (because insulin is not, hasn’t been, and isn’t at risk for becoming subject to “frailty”, seeing as how there are actually dozens of companies making it all around the world)

                Yes, there are a dozen companies making it.

                In very small amounts that can’t come _close_ to meeting worldwide demand if one of the big three were to run into issues. People who currently make 4% of all insulin cannot suddenly start making another 30% of it.

                No, not even in China. Although it is possible the new factories set up in China could ramp up fast enough to meet all _Chinese_ demand, in fact, that’s almost certainly why China has done this, because the Chinese government are not idiots. And if there is a shortage, China will sit there, happy, with insulin, while the rest of the world doesn’t have any.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

                “I brought up insulin because it’s a critical life-or-death market that is supplied by an incredibly few amount of companies…I have no idea why you went to price.”

                I went to price because I assumed you had a reason for bringing insulin into the conversation but it turns out you were derailing it

                I mean, if anything, the insulin market is direct disproof of your assertion that the natural process of a market economy can’t be expected to ensure supply of critically-needed items

                because there’s a global pandemic that’s disrupted the supply chain for materials so badly that we can no longer reliably supply specialty infant formula

                but there’s still plenty of insulin around, there aren’t massive shortages of the stuff or incredible price hikes since 2020

                even with, as you point out, most of it being made by only three companies

                so maybe this is just another one of those things where you see the ball going toward your own net and you’re hoping to wordswordswords your way out of itReport

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

                I went to price because I assumed you had a reason for bringing insulin into the conversation but it turns out you were derailing it

                No, talking about _prices_ is derailing the conversation. Literally no one had been talking about prices until you brought it up.

                The article was about, and I quote it: should such a huge percentage of America’s baby formula come from just ONE factory?

                And I agreed with that, and about how dangerous it was, and then I further when on to point out how that situation can’t be caused by what the article said it was caused because it appears to happen in every industry, such as insulin.

                YOU then derailed this into talking about prices, when every person before you was talking about ‘It is dangerous to have consolidated vital industries into so few hands’.

                because there’s a global pandemic that’s disrupted the supply chain for materials so badly that we can no longer reliably supply specialty infant formula

                Um, that’s not why we’re having the problems with formula supply. It has nothing to do with ‘disrupted supply chains’ or ‘global pandemic’.

                If you had _read the post_, you’d notice these words: You know, government programs like the FDA, which back in February (after first allegedly ignoring reported problems for months) closed down a baby formula plant that made a real whole lot of the formula in the US, particularly for special needs infants.

                The reason we have a problem with baby formula is that a single factory was closed, and the _entire system was so frail_ that it could no longer make enough with that single factory removed. Not just specialty formula, although that has been impacted worse, but all formula is having shortages.

                You also notice that no insulin factory _has_ been closed.

                Unless your premise is that insulin factories literally _cannot_ be closed, that they are immune to government action and fire and strikes and will continue operating regardless, the fact insulin is _currently_ still available doesn’t actually prove the system is not frail, it just proves it hasn’t broken. (Which no one was arguing.)

                Insulin is actually much harder to produce than baby formula, and it’s much harder to start up a new factory or ramp up production. Baby formula is a food, insulin is a drug, and drugs by neccessity have tighter tolerances than food.

                On the plus side, insulin manufacturers do appear to have more factories than formula manufacturers. On the minus side, the reason they do that is because insulin is so much harder to ship. If something happens to, for example, the Novo Nordisk plant in North Carolina, they’d end up having to ship insulin from Brazil, which not only presents a lot of practical challenges, but that one plant cannot manage both North and South America, so at some point they’d have to ship across the oceans, which presents even more problems and is probably completely impractical right now.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

            You keep citing random markets, like China and the other article that had a bunch of low-income companies, and pretending that disproves something about the _global_ number. “Why, this specific country has done something to fix the problem, that must mean the worldwide numbers are off!”

            Here’s an actual official statement, from the Congressional Research Service, from 2018:

            https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/IF11026.pdf

            Currently, three firms—Eli Lilly, Novo Nordisk, Sanofi
            Aventis—account for over 90% of the global insulin market
            and produce the entire insulin supply for diabetic patients in
            the United States.

            Please note it says ‘over 90%’ there, they didn’t bother to actually work the math out.

            The people who have done the math have asserted those three companies produce about 96% of all insulin and take about 99% of all income from the sale of insulin. (Because the US market is insanely profitable.)

            But maybe they’re wrong! Maybe those three companies only *checks official US government statements by the research service* only ‘over 90%’ but _not_ reaching 96%!Report

  13. Jaybird says:

    To actually deal with the issues of the essay, one of the problems is that “capitalism” and “socialism” have become totems of a sort.

    You see this with some of the criticisms of “capitalism” out there that are really criticisms of entropy.

    The current situation here isn’t really a criticism of “socialism” but a criticism of this weird deference to authority. I saw a quotation the other day that talked about how, once, the arguments were about “how can we make this happen?” but are now “how can we get authority on board with this?”

    This outsourcing of our own agency to authority might make sense if authority was competent. But it ain’t.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

      I, and my 2 million federal civil service co-workers, appreciate your vote of confidence.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

        I’m not really referring to the DMV folks as much as, to use an easy example, guys like Chesa Boudin.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

          In a thread about federal regulations . . . I don’t buy your misdirection.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

            Okay, let’s swap to Federal.

            I’m not talking about the guys whose job it is to interview Fiancé Visa applicants at Homeland Security.

            I’m talking about folks like the Press Secretary and the captured/corrupt folks at the FDA.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

              This outsourcing of our own agency to authority might make sense if authority was competent. But it ain’t.

              Sorry bro, you don’t get to just walk that back so easily. Because both the federal examples you cite are part of that authority.

              Try again.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                As are, for example, the Press Secretary. As is the Executive Branch.

                And, yes, it even extends to the state and city level as well.

                I’ve got an essay in the hopper about this. In a nutshell: if the trains run on time, the authorities can get away with a lot. If the trains don’t, the authorities can’t get away with much.

                How those trains doin’?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Before you hit “publish” you might want to study the American Communists and their endless struggle to become relevant and consider why they have failed.

                One reason their endless complaints about corrupt/captured corporations never found an audience isn’t that they are false- they are absolutely true.

                But they could never translate that into a vision for something better, or give us a reason to trust them.

                Just pointing out “The FDA made a mistake! The cops did this Bad Thing!” is pointless because yeah, we all get it.
                We got it years ago, long before you did.

                If you can’t articulate some alternative vision then you’ll just be like the RevComs who periodically paper my neighborhood with all sort of comical posts and stickers about rising up and unshackling and yadda yadda who-the-hell-cares.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                If you can’t articulate some alternative vision then you’ll just be like the RevComs who periodically paper my neighborhood with all sort of comical posts and stickers about rising up and unshackling and yadda yadda who-the-hell-cares.

                When we’ve argued this in the past, I pointed to stuff like the EU’s European Medicines Agency.

                Like, I’m not even pointing to a pie-in-the-sky thing. I’m pointing to something that actually exists!Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                The vast majority of the government “trains” run on time at all levels in as much as they deliver the services asked of them the best they can within the constraints of law and funding.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                It’s only a handful of bad apples, I guess.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

                Or it’s not any bad apples, because constraints of law & funding can do a whole lot to tie the hands of the agencies. You gotta separate the rules that exist because some agency head stuck it in there at the request of a lobbyist, versus a lawmaker doing it at the request of a lobbyist, versus an enforcement agent/agency taking a unique view to the language of the regulation.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Then it’s merely a case where the FDA has been captured.

                I don’t know whether to feel relief or what.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        There’s a difference between authority being competent and government workers being skilled and diligent. I live in Maryland and know a few people who work for the federal government, and I respect them. Maybe I’m making a point that Jaybird wouldn’t agree with, but the conservative position typically is that government isn’t capable of competence by its structure. We’re not one good staffer away from a good government.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          Your problem is you see government doing things you don’t agree with, conclude that’s not “good government” and proceed to bash the people doing the governing. Sometimes you hit the mark with remembering that federal employees, state employees and county employees are all at the whims of the laws and regulations they are handed by legislative branches, but mostly you, and Jay, and other rail against “bad government” without ever bothering to be clear about what part of government actually bothers you.

          As to competent authority – I honestly have no idea what that would be beyond skilled people working diligently, since authority – government in particular – is a people doing things construct.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

            Jay, and other rail against “bad government” without ever bothering to be clear about what part of government actually bothers you.

            Here’s a thread about the FDA from a million years ago. It’s about Epipens and, specifically, how the US had only approved one kind of Epipen and the EU had approved eight. (An Epipen in the US cost around $300 while ones in the EU cost ~$70.)

            The question that I asked then and still would enjoy seeing kicked around now is:

            I mean, let’s all imagine some sort of weird situation where the people who need epipens all suddenly have a non-FDA approved connection in Germany and they get their epipens shipped to them for cost plus a bottle of something, you know, for the trouble.

            Are the people in my above example putting themselves and/or their loved ones in harms way by using devices that have not been approved by the FDA? Are these people being foolish?

            Report

            • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

              They’re absolutely putting themselves in harm’s way. Being fined or prosecuted is terrible for people.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

              One of the interesting things about how the FDA works is they can’t approve something unless the manufacturer asks. And then the cost burden is on the manufacturer to provide all the documentation and/or clinical data to demonstrate effectiveness and safety. At least the way I read the statute, Congress requires them to act that way.

              Does the EU do it that way?

              (A considerable amount of the criticism aimed at the regulatory agencies ought to be aimed at Congress, which more and more refuses to do its job.)Report

              • Philip H in reply to Michael Cain says:

                A considerable amount of the criticism aimed at the regulatory agencies ought to be aimed at Congress, which more and more refuses to do its job.

                Agreed, and its one of the things that drives me nuts about the whole “government sucks” line of reasoning.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain says:

                I don’t know. I’m sure that there’s a similar function to the EMA having to be asked first, but then the EMA does its work. (I’m pretty sure that the EMA is funded by tax dollars rather than by pharma companies.)

                I’m sure that the cost burden for the documentation/clinical data remains on the manufacturer.

                Yeah, this is also a failure of Congress. This is one of the several areas in which Congress got captured (and that’s how the FDA got captured too).Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m pretty sure that the EMA is funded by tax dollars rather than by pharma companies.

                The EMA legislation simply allows the FDA to cut a few corners and waive some of the usual requirements if an emergency has been declared. Doesn’t provide any money.

                In the case of Covid vaccines, Congress separately agreed to provide production funding (with strings, so not all companies took it), and to pay for hundreds of millions of doses in advance for possibly worthless vaccines.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain says:

                I was using EMA to refer to the European Medicines Agency… Jeez. That’s also the acronym for Emergency (Something) Act, isn’t it?Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

                My bad. I was thinking of the EUA statutes.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

            You’re missing the federalist notion that different levels of government are more fit for handling different problems. My problem isn’t merely that government does things that I don’t like. It’s that higher levels of government are doing things they’re not suited for, or government is doing things that the private sector is more suited for. These conditions limit the potential of competency.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

              In cases where government appears to “take over” a private sector function, its usually because the private sector isn’t actually doing the things it ought to do. Like cleaning up toxic wastes, or paying women equitably, or keeping its formula manufacturing plants free from contamination.

              As to the federalist part – I tend to agree, and I also tend to see a lot of people railing against “government” without being specific as tow hat government function they dis like and who owns it. Take Kristen’s swipe at homelessness in a large PNW city. We now from a lot of empirical evidence that homelessness has several root causes – the most basic of which is the rise in house prices outstripping wages. House prices are in no way controlled by any level of government, and while minimum wages are set by governments at several levels, none of them is indexed to things like historical inflation. So if Kristen wants to actually address a significant root cause of homelessness, but do so without government intervention at any level – since its a market based thing the private sector ought to do a better job of, how is she to proceed? Market’s are clearly no longer competent at paying people what they are worth, nor are they competent at keeping housing affordable while labor wages lag . . . .Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

                Local governments impact housing prices through zoning and permits. Take Portland for example, it drastically restricts the housing supply through the urban growth boundary and zoning.Report

              • North in reply to Philip H says:

                Mmmmm Philip.. not to pick on you but the high price of housing is directly attributable, in every market it occurs in, to government action- specifically government (mostly NIMBY dominated local government) throwing up large amounts of regulatory obstacles to or outright preventing the construction of new supplies of housing.

                I agree strongly with your overall point but housing is a terrible terrible example.Report

              • Philip H in reply to North says:

                The high price of housing is only partially due to Nimby based regulations – a great many Nimby reg free cities have similar issues. the salary issues is a far greater problem, and that seems to be way more market driven then any part of the equation. Frankly loosing the NIMBY regs won’t necessarily help – builders still won’t build if they can’t make the bucks they want to make under that new regime.Report

              • North in reply to Philip H says:

                Such as where? I don’t hear about astronomical housing prices in Houston.

                I also have to disagree with your salary point. If you could wave a magic wand at these markets and double everyones’ salary then housing costs would simply double to eat that increase.

                Builders build to get the most profits they can get. The only time I’d expect they’d stop building is if they’d have to take a loss on building.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

                Are you responding to this article?

                How Houston Moved 25,000 People From the Streets Into Homes of Their Own
                The nation’s fourth-largest city hasn’t solved homelessness, but its remarkable progress can suggest a way forward.

                https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/headway/houston-homeless-people.html?referringSource=articleShareReport

              • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Uh, no I’m not but good for Houston! If anything it might bolster my point since Houston is rather famously light on gummint zoning regulations.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

              I can agree with this but also notice how similar it is to the leftist critique of globalism, that small local farms are preferable to globalized industrial foodstream.

              The critique can’t work as a broad principle, but only as a specific targeted one.

              Which functions are best handled locally and what empirical evidence supports that, and so on.Report

  14. Roger says:

    Kristen,

    You should follow the examples of Freddie and others and start your own substack subscription. You would be extremely popular and probably make some money from your writing. You continue to write the most interesting stuff on OT.Report