Linky Friday: Among, But Not Of Edition

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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69 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    LF2: Someone else who doesn’t get that no one thinks X is a silver bullet. Reforming QI so that it’s valid under a narrower set of circumstances (instead of the opposite case that exists now) isn’t a silver bullet, it’s just another tool in the toolbox that needs to be used.

    LF5: https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/05/06/afghanistan-biden-military-forceReport

    • Greginak in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Complex problems always have multi faceted solutions. The thing cop reform needs most is years of constant pressure. Reforms failed in the past because the spotlight went off reform.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Greginak says:

        If QI is the deal-breaker for a police reform bill, that is unfortunate, since it is just not that big a practical deal, either way, in the grand scheme of things. (For those interested in the gory details, UCLA law prof Joanna Schwartz has published a great deal of interesting research on this and related topics. FWIW, this is consistent with my own long experience in a job where QI is supposed to be a BFD. It rarely matters in my cases, and almost never leads to a different result than a straight liability analysis would.) N.B.: this isn’t the “not a silver bullet” argument, it’s the “doesn’t matter much” argument.Report

        • Greginak in reply to CJColucci says:

          I think QI gets a lot of attention because it leads to shocking cases that make the press. It’s bad and should be limited but doesn’t represent the daily “minor” issues that plague law enforcement.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Greginak says:

            The problem with QI isn’t the interactions with police that a Grand Jury would not find indictable (and, therefore, a waste of taxpayer dollars to investigate).

            The problem with QI is stuff like “cops stealing from people under color of law and then the courts saying that the guy who was stolen from can’t sue the police department because of QI”.

            Like, not even finding for the police department after a court case. Just up’n saying “yeah, you can’t sue because of QI”.

            Which sure as hell makes it look like “UI”.Report

            • Greginak in reply to Jaybird says:

              QI is bad. But cases that involve it are the minority of cop interactions. BS traffic stops or stop and frisks are the bulk of cop interactions. Those destroy trust and are where cops spend most of their time being power hungry jerks. Need to change the majority of interactions to create downstream effects on the small.minority of cases. QI needs to go or be sharply limited but it’s just one part of the puzzle.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greginak says:

                QI needs to go or be sharply limited but it’s just one part of the puzzle.

                Oscar wrote a post about this!

                There are so very many things that are broken that it almost feels impossible to fix.

                But every single defense of QI that I’ve seen in the last year has had 90% “fixing QI wouldn’t fix that many problems” and only 10% “but QI is needed so cops can do their jobs”.

                Would getting rid of QI break things?

                This is a serious question. Are there things that would be broken by getting rid of QI?

                If the list of things is smaller than the things that are currently being broken by QI (I can provide a list, if you’d like), then we should get rid of it because, hey, even if it only fixes a couple of things, it breaks fewer things than it fixes (as far as I can tell) because, as you point out, the majority of cop interactions don’t get anywhere *NEAR* QI territory.

                And then we can look at the other half-dozen things that need to be fixed. One at a time.

                And deal with the “but that one thing you’re looking at, one at a time, isn’t a silver bullet!” arguments as they come up.Report

              • Greginak in reply to Jaybird says:

                So yeah QI needs to go or a massive fix. Agreed. You can’t do reform sequentially, there isn’t momentum to keep things going forever. QI, retraining, more bix for social services / MH, using alt providers for some thing all need to be a go right about now.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                The best available research suggests that getting rid of QI would result in slightly more lawsuits being brought, that those lawsuits would move somewhat faster because you wouldn’t be making QI motions and their interlocutory appeals, and that very few cases would come out differently in the end. Though one potentially unfortunate result, from the point of view of plaintiffs, is that cases now thrown out on QI grounds — because the law is not “clearly established” — would go to the merits and end up with definitive rulings that the plaintiffs don’t have the rights they think they have. If QI is the dealbreaker on the pending police reform bill, that would be unfortunate. I would vote for the bill with or without QI and think it a good day’s work. But QI is, for some reason, the irresistible shiny object.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I think it’s because of shit like this.

                And if people think that keeping stuff like that is not so bad that it’s important to prevent those slightly more lawsuits being brought, then they will find that they kicked the can of “getting rid of QI” down the road.

                Remember the early days of the George Floyd thing?

                Refusing to get rid of QI is like that guy saying “hey, we’re not going to charge the cop”.

                Mike Freeman thought that that press conference was the end of the conversation. It wasn’t.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                So let me repeat the actual question. Is QI a deal-breaker or isn’t it? If the bill comes to the floor without a QI provision, do you vote for it or against it? That’s the actual question facing people with real responsibility for results. Maybe you don’t want to answer it, but they may have to. Responsibility is a bitch.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to CJColucci says:

                At this point, if the bill has other, more profound reforms in it, no, QI is not a deal breaker.

                But QI has to be at the very least reformed and more clearly defined. If not today, than someday soon. It just can not be allowed to stand as is. I honestly can not fathom how judges rationalized interpreting it as they did. Imagine if all criminal or tort law operated like QI does?Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                It’s a derivative of sovereign immunity which keep in mind applies to all government agents, not just law enforcement. And it makes sense in a world where the state and its agents have to constantly deal with hard calls and manage proverbial ‘no win situations.’ The government couldn’t function if its agents could be successfully sued for every exercise of discretion it needs to do its job.

                Where the courts have dropped the ball is by interpreting ‘clearly established law’ to mean ‘some other court somewhere has decided that way on nearly identical facts.’ That or the facts are just so appalling that the judge is willing to set a new precedent which may well be reversed, and most of them don’t like that.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                Yeah, that interpretation just boggles the mind. I don’t have a problem with giving agents some measure of immunity.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                If Police Unions only argued for better pay, more vacation, and more sick time, only libertarian nutballs would oppose them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                For whom?

                If you must, absolutely must, allow police to steal from the people into whose homes they’re invading under color of law, I’d say that the fact that it’s a deal-breaker for you to not include QI reflects more poorly on you than on me.

                I also know that you will get sick of defending QI in the face of cops stealing from people before I will get sick of calling for its end.

                So the question is: Are you willing to break this deal over how important it is to you to keep QI for cops who steal shit, Mike Freeman?

                Because I am willing to say “this is not acceptable” for a good long while now… even in the face of you saying “I offered a deal! It was mostly good!”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Reading comprehension problem, Jaybird? I’m not saying that QI is a deal-breaker. I’m saying it shouldn’t be. I’ve said as clearly as I know how — and I know how to be clear — that I’d vote for the pending bill whether or not it has QI reform. You, by contrast, still haven’t said in plain English whether you would “break this deal,” to use your words, if you don’t get your way on QI.
                I don’t think anyone else has had a problem understanding that. Why do you?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I’m saying that QI is one of the things that needs to be fixed.

                And it will need to get fixed even if this bill doesn’t address it.

                Is a bill that doesn’t go far enough better than no bill at all? Sure.

                But after we pass the bill that doesn’t go far enough, we get to have the conversation about a bill that does.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                So if the final bill came up without QI, would you vote for or against it? Or do I need to make the question simpler?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I would argue to the people writing the bill, beforehand, that they need to address QI.

                And expect the people defending the bill not having QI to do so.

                Like, before the vote.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Is there some reason you don’t want to answer the question? Obviously, you don’t have to, if you don’t want to, whatever your reasons. But there is probably some value in getting your unwillingness to answer it clear.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I don’t want to answer the question because I disagree with the fundamental premise that QI is something that is okay leaving off of the bill.

                For some reason, people think that it’s okay to not include it.

                I’d rather they argue why QI is so important to keep that it be kept out of a police reform bill than compromise on how it’s one of the things that would be okay to leave out of the bill.

                Why are you so personally attached to QI that you don’t think that it’s important to include in a reform bill?

                You yourself have pointed out that it doesn’t apply to the vast majority of interactions. Are its protections so very important that they overshadow the crimes committed in its name?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

                I mean, there’s a rhetorical trick I’ve seen before. I’m sure you’ve seen it too:

                The bill needs A, B, C, D, and E to be the perfect bill.

                A bill that has A, B, C, and D would be a good bill. As would be a bill that had A, B, C, and E. Or A, B, D, and E. Or A, C, D, and E. Or B, C, D, and E.

                An *OKAY* bill would be one that had A, B, and C. Or A, B, and D. Or A, B, and E. Or A, C, and D. (I am not going to do all of the combinations but there are 10 of them.)

                A mediocre bill would have only two.

                A weak bill would have only one.

                And so asking me if I’d be okay if the bill didn’t have D in it… well, I’d like to know what kind of bill it is.

                Is it a good bill that has A, B, C, and E?

                Is it an okay bill that has B, C, and E?

                Is it a mediocre bill that has C and E?

                Is it a weak bill that only addresses C?

                If it’s a bill with A, B, C, and E, I’d be okay with D not being in it (but we’re going to be coming back to D soon, believe you me).

                If it’s a weak bill that only addresses C, then it’s a weak bill. I suppose it might be better than nothing at all… But I’d rather fight for, at least, an OKAY bill than accept a weak one right out of the gate.

                So when you keep asking me if a bill not having D is a dealbreaker, I don’t know what the deal is.

                The trick is focusing on D without mentioning what the deal is.

                Is the deal that I’m being offered A, B, C, and E?

                Or am I being offered C?

                What’s the deal?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                You don’t have to agree or disagree with any “premise.” The current reporting is that QI is the big sticking point in getting the larger bill passed. It’s not a matter of it being “okay” to leave out; it may be the price of getting anything substantial done. And you can guess which side of the aisle most of the people who don’t want QI reform sit on.

                That being the apparent fact, the practical question becomes do you insist on QI reform in the bill, and lose enough Republicans to lose the entire bill, or do you leave it out and pass the larger bill? This is what Max Weber called an ethic of responsibility, and it’s how grown-ups have to think about political questions. So if you had a position of actual responsibility, instead of a barstool, what would you do? What you’d “rather.” or what you think is “okay,” is neither here nor there. The question is what, in the actual circumstances, you as a — perhaps — responsible lawmaker do when called upon to vote yea or nay on the actual bill likely to be in front of you.

                And to help clear up your recurring reading comprehension issues, I am not “personally attached to QI.” I have said a number of times, in plain English, that I disagree with recent trends in QI law (mostly the work of Republican judicial appointees), that it is insignificant in my practice, though I am in a line of work where it is supposed to be important, and that, in my experience and in accordance with the best available research, QI simply isn’t a big deal now and getting rid of it would not be a big deal either. Almost all the cases now decided on QI grounds would come out the same on the merits, except for a not-insignificant number that would flatly rule that litigants don’t have the rights they think they have, instead of punting on QI grounds and leaving hope for future litigants — something not good for plaintiffs as a class. So I do not think QI’s protections are “important,” for good or ill. If QI went away, I would not mind one bit. But, based on a couple of decades of experience in the area and a bunch of scholarly research, I don’t expect that it would matter much whether it did or not.

                So how would you vote when push comes to shove?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                So how would you vote when push comes to shove?

                It depends on the deal that was being offered.

                If the deal is “we’re going to increase police training budgets and not touch QI”, then, no just no but HELL NO.

                If the deal is getting rid of no-knock warrants, police union reform, asset forfeiture reform, and changing the drug war? I would cheerfully say that that was a pretty good bill that I would support.

                But demanding I answer whether a bill not having QI would be a dealbreaker without telling me what the deal is?

                I’m afraid that I don’t have enough information.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                If only there were an actual bill under negotiation that one could look at. Oh, wait:

                https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1280/text#toc-H5A0B5A5505624C60B7132DBF904D86E8Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Huh. There’s a part in there about reforming Qualified Immunity.

                I wonder if including that part in the bill will be a dealbreaker for anybody.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                It wasn’t for the House, which passed it, and probably won’t be for most of the Senate Democrats, though this isn’t something that can be passed by reconciliation. A non-trivial number of Republicans will have to sign on. Some of the Senate Republicans have said they have an issue with the QI provision, and the reporting I have seen suggests that this is the likely sticking point.

                So now you can refer to the actual bill under consideration. If the price of getting the rest of the bill is dropping the QI provision, what do you do?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                In the short term, force the Republicans to defend QI covering such things as the police stealing from people during a raid such as in the case we discussed last year.

                Every single outrageous QI incident from the last 5 years? Ask about each one specifically in order.

                And paint the Republicans opposed to QI reform as supporting the acts in each outrageous incident… say that them letting cops steal was a dealbreaker for them.

                Maybe we can head off the hypothetical at the pass.

                (Get Schumer and Pelosi to talk about these excesses as well.)

                If it’s that particular bill or nothing? The bill is better than nothing and it should pass.

                But that bill passing should not be the end of the conversation about police reform.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                If it’s that particular bill or nothing? The bill is better than nothing and it should pass.

                With your vote or without it?

                But that bill passing should not be the end of the conversation about police reform.

                I’m looking for the part where somebody said it ought to be. That aside, if you don’t have the votes to get QI reform through in a package deal, you won’t have the votes to pass a stand-alone bill. That’s Legislation 101.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                The bill is better than nothing, sure. I would vote for it, under duress.

                And I would name the senators who removed the language that would hold police accountable for the egregious examples.

                But I’d also name them *BEFORE* the bill came to a vote. Try to get journalists to ask them “why did you remove the portion of the bill that said that police can’t be held accountable for stealing?”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                See how easy that was?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                The problem is now that the baseline for negotiation has been set.

                So we get rid of the Reform QI portion of the bill.

                Hey, would getting rid of the Accreditation of Law Enforcement Agencies section be a dealbreaker?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I haven’t heard that that provision is causing any trouble. Have you?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Oh, I haven’t. Not yet, anyway.

                I was merely asking if getting rid of it would be a dealbreaker.

                Would you flush the bill down the toilet unless it had the Accreditation of Law Enforcement Agencies section?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Haven’t given it any thought. Don’t plan to unless it becomes an issue. If you hear anything, let me know.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Ain’t that some stuff.Report

              • InMD in reply to CJColucci says:

                The point of removing it isn’t accountability, it’s to compensate plaintiffs victimized by outrageous state action, which the ‘clearly established law’ rubric all but prohibits.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    Interesting if true:

    I’m glad that we finally have a president that is putting Americans First.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

      This has been procurement law for Federal agencies for at least a decade if not more for lots of stuff. We can’t buy Toyotas made in Tennessee because its not an American Company. He’s just going to do more of it.Report

  3. Michael Cain says:

    LF6: At the local grocery in the craft brewing heavy city where I now live, there’s a beer aisle: one side of an entire aisle is beer cooler. (In what I hope is a bit of intentional humor, the other side of the aisle is all the assorted yeast-based bread products.) Roughly half the aisle is craft brews, many local but some from farther away. A third of the aisle is imports and the big American brewers’ more exotic products. Down at the end are the nearly indistinguishable products that get most of the TV commercial time.Report

  4. Pinky says:

    LF3 – This article would be wrong even in normal times, but these days it’s so wrong it’s bizarre. We’ve all seen people get along until they discover the other’s politics, at which point they start to hate each other. It’s not even enough to call this “documented”; it’s ubiquitous. Sure, some people don’t like each other viscerally. I don’t offhand know deBoer’s politics, but based on this article I wouldn’t go out of my way to read him again. And you know what, maybe he’s so unlikeable that people grapple with how to explain their repulsion and try to intellectualize it. But if his analysis is worthwhile, I’d read him. So I guess I’m proposing a both/and model, that you can alienate people based on your personality or politics.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

      As noted in previous threads within the last 6 weeks or so, Mr. deBoer seems to be oblivious to the logs in his own eyes.Report

    • greginak in reply to Pinky says:

      Freddie is an ideologue which is part of it. Most of the rest of it is his personality. I like to read him, but he has…ahem…limited insight.

      Further, when he got back on the webs after his break due to his own terrible behavior he talked about how he wasn’t cut out for the internet. He got back on slowly and cautiously since he knows he went to a bad place with it before. He jumped on substack for a good reason, money when he was unemployed. However this kind of piece by him suggests to me he is heading back to that same pissy flame throwing needlessly fight provoking bad place. I fear he has a only few months before he breaks and is entwined in dumb internet slap fights that will do his MH harm and not be good for anybody else.Report

      • Pinky in reply to greginak says:

        See, that’s the weird thing. I’m an ideologue too, but that makes me more aware of the tension caused by political disagreements. I try to be polite, and often find people I disagree with more interesting, but you can’t spend any time online without seeing people get torched for having the wrong beliefs. Is deBoer left of center? He might just not have any experience with people who disagree with him. I can tell you, it’d be rare to fine a conservative who didn’t believe that people get attacked for their beliefs.Report

        • Greginak in reply to Pinky says:

          Fred is a communist by his own description I believe. He was a contributor here back when dinosaurs roamed the internet so he has some experience with differing views. He believes in hyperbole as a good style which I think is massively wrong. It’s the web everybody gets attacked for their beliefs unless they stay very tightly in a bubble.Report

        • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

          He describes himself as a Marxist. The tirade is probably best understood in context of blue check/big media twitter. To followers of his writing (I am one) I think it’s clear that’s the world he’s talking about but I can see how it’s kind of confusing since he doesn’t expressly say it.

          Personally I think he’s better when he doesn’t delve into the weeds of the Twitter wars but doing so is absolutely part of his persona.Report

        • North in reply to Pinky says:

          He’s extremely left BUT he’s also extremely conscious of how modern identity politics don’t actually advance left wing goals and it makes him quite angry (and he’s prone to a kind of potent angry writing style to begin with). I’d strongly recommend you read more of his stuff. He’s quite a good writer and thinker but he can get drawn into twitter dramas easily and he really easily gets drawn into tilting at the decaying windmill of the modern media establishment both because he feels it deeply betrays its principles and because they loathe him (for being a better and more interesting writer than most of them are and for being an apostate to in vogue lefty shibboleths).Report

          • Brandon Berg in reply to North says:

            He’s extremely left BUT he’s also extremely conscious of how modern identity politics don’t actually advance left wing goals

            Stop trying to make me like identity politics, Freddie.

            Actually, the thing I hate most about identity politics is that I think of it as an attack on liberal capitalism. It’s an assertion that liberalism is a lie and that capitalism is fundamentally unjust in a manner that cannot be corrected without extensive government intervention, or even tearing down the whole system and starting over.

            And personally, all the big identity politics zealots that I know IRL are pretty far left on economics. I know that the Old Left rejects race and gender identity politics in favor of class identity politics, but it’s just a slight variation on the same Mad Libs template.Report

            • InMD in reply to Brandon Berg says:

              I think this is misplaced. Far left economic views can exist in the spectrum of a healthy liberal society, and without a rejection of core liberal principles. There are plenty of places where they manifest as responsible-enough social democratic and green parties. You don’t have to agree with them or vote for them but they are committed to working within the system. And if they win then it’s their opponents’ job to figure out something better and beat them electorally. The modern form of woke-ism/IDP/whatever rejects liberalism altogether.Report

        • North in reply to Pinky says:

          To expand on my point: Freddie is an economic leftist but he writes things like this:
          https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/what-are-you-12-theres-no-deserves
          Which I believe speaks to his quality of thought and writing skill.Report

      • Jesse in reply to greginak says:

        Of course, one of Freddire’s first articles was attacking all the supposed “elite journos” who started dunking on him on Twitter when he came back to Substack, including Sarah Jones, whose elitism consists of…writing consistently about the need for a bigger welfare state, unionization, and issues in rural communities that she came from, but since she doesn’t view part of the solution being the destruction of identity politics.Report

        • KenB in reply to Jesse says:

          This is weirdly non-responsive to his article — you put “elite journos” in quotes as if he said that, but the word “elite” doesn’t appear anywhere. His article was about media culture and the in-group vs out-group dynamics of lefty journalists on Twitter — for this topic, her opinions about politics and policy are irrelevant.

          If you’re basically just shouting “same team!” at him, then I don’t see offhand why you wouldn’t shout it at her as well, since he was (partly) reacting to her dismissive comments about him.Report

  5. InMD says:

    LF5 I just don’t get pieces like this. Clearly a plurality of Afghans are comfortable with or indifferent to the rule of religious fanatics, as long as they’re ethnic Pushtuns. Maybe (and I stress, maybe) the US could eventually break them of that preference by making it incredibly painful to continue to cling to it. However it’s clear it isn’t possible with the resources available nor is it a priority of the people, who still nominally hold power over the US government. While I am sure this is very hard for state department bureaucrats, spooks, and Wilsonian and Neocon ideologues alike, it’s time for them to get their heads into reality.Report

    • North in reply to InMD says:

      Is we leave Afghanistan it’s the final nail in the coffin of neocon and liberal interventionist ideology. Ideologically it’s pure acid on their tiny brains. It also is terrible business for the industries and government cost centers that grease their collective palms so it marks them as wrong in the eyes of history and scorches their finances. No surprise they hate the policy.Report

  6. Brandon Berg says:

    LF6: So much for “Free as in free speech, not as in free beer.”Report

  7. LF7: Shorter NR: Yes, Trump is a would-be dictator and if he can get his thugs better organized next time, maybe more than would-be, but talking about that would hurt u in the midterms.

    AKA Better Hitler than Blum.Report

  8. Jaybird says:

    This is a story I didn’t expect to read.

    When I heard about Bill and Melinda Gates getting a divorce, I thought of a handful of jokes (who didn’t?) and enjoyed the better jokes that others made (everything about Terms of Service to The Queen now being single to Jeff Bezos now being single) but didn’t give it much thought after that.

    Hey. It’s Bill Gates.

    But the story say that it’s about Epstein.

    Now, when it comes to the story’s sourcing… well, the passive voice is used. Check this out:

    Neither Bill nor Melinda revealed yet what led to the split. But a report that Melinda had been upset at her soon-to-be ex-husband’s connection to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein is speculated to be one of the main reasons, the Journal reported.

    What the hell? Even the Enquirer would find that flimsy.

    But, apparently, they both visited Epstein in his apartment back in 2013.

    So… I’d kinda wish we had a journalist class that didn’t suck. Yeah, yeah. A million bucks would be nice as well.Report