We Don’t Need ‘City-Slicker Elegy’
Here’s an ugly little piece by author Louis Bayard I came across in my reading this morning. Stupid, uninformed, written with all the insight of a rant in a high school newspaper. The Washington Post should be embarrassed for publishing this tripe, though I do always enjoy it when liberals show their prejudices so clearly for the world to see.
Since you brought it up, Louis…
For starters, Louis, those of us who aren’t liberal elitists don’t have to read a special book to understand you. You are not mysteries to us. We have numerous movies, tv shows (including the weak sauce that passes for broadcast news these days), books both fiction and non-, and veritable reams of clickbait-y slop churned out by The New York Times, Slate Magazine, The Atlantic, Teen Vogue, and The Washington Post centered around the interests of elitists, particularly urban elitists. We’ve been inundated by your navel-gazing patrician propaganda for half a century. And if all that wasn’t enough, lord knows you never shut up on social media, either.
It’s actually kind of hard to AVOID your point of view, Louis. Most of us have the equivalent of a PhD in Liberal Elite Studies we earned just by living our lives day to day. I already know more about the inner workings of New England prep schools and the tortured angst of middle-aged writers than any country woman ought.
Louis, it is your peers who remain ignorant of what the rest of America is like. Not the other way around. Thus, the rest of us don’t need to create a cottage industry around scientifically investigating the strange interlopers in our midst. We’re the strange interlopers here, interlopers in our own country. Liberal urban elitism is the dominant American culture, as much as it pains me to say so.
You and your insular, overweening friends are the ones in a bubble, Louis. You believe the Hollywood myth that most of the people who live in vast swaths of the US think and behave exactly like the characters in Hillbilly Elegy. You believe anyone who doesn’t appreciate the exact same subset of consumer goods as you do is drowning in ignorance and fear that somehow manifests itself as bad taste. You believe anyone who doesn’t vote the same as you are evil rather than believing that two equally intelligent, well-informed people can draw two separate conclusions from the same information.
The so-called “Red States” are made up of millions of people, many of whom voted Democrat. The so-called “Blue States” are made up of millions of people, many of whom voted Republican (myself included.) It is not only common but typical for elections even in supposed “Red” or “Blue” areas to have a 60-30 breakdown, meaning that in many locales 1/3 of the people in that area retain political opinions the opposite of what those bicolored maps people in the media love so much would predict. Additionally, many, many voters are neither “red” nor “blue”, but individuals who vote based on a candidate’s personality or the issues of the day, rather than strict adherence to any given political philosophy.
Thus your silly notion that America is a monolith in EITHER direction based on geography is so ridiculous and ignorant as to be laughable, Louis. While the terms “Red States” and “Blue States” are meant to illustrate a principle, you were never supposed to actually BELIEVE that those artificially created divisions existed!
Nearly 74 million people voted for Donald Trump. All across America. This was not a small number of toothless hicks who are easily written off, but people from a variety of economic backgrounds and cultural heritages. Furthermore, I am told a fair number of folks who voted Trump in 2016 didn’t vote for him in 2020, so please explain their existence, if you’d be so kind. How does that fit into your Hillbilly Elegy theory, Louis? Did they become properly cultured overnight like a batch of kefir? One mouthful of Grey Poupon and they were transformed into Biden voters? Or were they the same people they always were who simply drew a different conclusion based on the information available?
Your Hillbilly Elegy theory also fails to explain the existence of a whole lot of people who voted Biden without sharing your noxious elitist sensibilities. One of the biggest reasons why Trump appeals to people is because they despise elitist sensibilities, not because they are “hillbillies”. In case you were unaware, Louis, since you certainly seem to be unaware of quite a lot, this is the reason why many folks voted for Bernie Sanders as well. Hating intellectual snobbery is in no way a single-party phenomenon, far from it. Since you desperately need those Bernie voters in the Democrat coalition, non-Bernie-voting members of that coalition might want to be careful when lobbying salvos at people who harbor anti-elitist sentiments.
Rejection of cultural elitism is an attitude held by Americans across the financial and political spectrum, people who, believe it or not, know things about our country, about science, about history, about culture and literature and fine cuisine and yes, even a good deal about politics. Many who loathe elitist snobs actually even live in or near cities of some size. Many of us know far more than you, Louis; you’ve made that quite clear by displaying your ignorance, not just pretending but actually seeming to believe that “everyone who voted Trump is a character in Hillbilly Elegy”. Let alone your imagining – an imagining bordering on delusion, IMO – that most people would find your dull, unfunny, warmed-over viewpoints on subjects that better writers have already strip-mined to the bedrock remotely humorous or insightful.
I mean seriously, Louis, do you really believe that people in so-called “Red States” don’t know what yoga is?? Do you think they don’t have vegan restaurants and Chardonnay in cities in Middle America? Do you really and truly think anyone who doesn’t live on a coast has never listened to NPR? Eaten an avocado? Or “met a scientist”? Do you really think that half the nation is comprised of brain-damaged troglodytes living in trailer parks huffing paint while unironically lecturing me about being wise and well-informed?
Louis Bayard, you and your ilk are either willingly, deliberately, reducing over half of America, including a good number of people on your side, including a good number of urban people (your kombucha swilling neighbors!) who voted differently than you, to an ugly and untrue stereotype because it suits your political agenda to do so, or else because you are so ridiculously up your own asses, so awash in your own sense of faux-intellectual superiority that you actually believe it.
You might want to think about that.
Because I am well informed about your political ingroup, Louis, quite well informed indeed despite being handicapped by my geographical location, I can state unequivocally that you, Sir, are neither a liberal nor a Democrat. You are in no way representative of those groups. You are a rich old, highly educated white male who works in the media. You are the dictionary definition of an elitist snob, a person so grossly out of touch that you truly believe your elitist snobbery is actually representative of the majority rather than a fading relic of a time few younger than 45 even remember. Louis, you are an arrogant classist dinosaur, the last of a dying breed of tedious stuffed shirts none will mourn, and you will go down equally loathed by the vast majority of “Red State” and “Blue State” voters alike.
Write an elegy for yourself, why don’t you.
Joe Biden has repeatedly said he’ll be president for all Americans, that it is time for our country to heal. He says he’ll work as hard for those who didn’t vote for him as those who did. Jill Biden claims to want a spirit of national unity, while Kamala Harris has called for empathy and decency. While I admire their sentiments, I personally have a hard time believing them, because I’ve read so much toxic waste from “liberals” like Louis Bayard that decry their noble words. Still, I do appreciate the efforts of the Biden-Harris campaign in attempting pleasantries rather than wallowing freely in the egotistical us vs them mindset that hurt the Clinton campaign so badly – and indeed, hurt ALL of America.
Liberals, you must stop normalizing pathological snobbery, especially when it’s based in gross falsehoods such as “everyone who voted for Trump is an inbred, lardlicking oaf ripped from the pages of Hillbilly Elegy”. It is time for divisive dross like this to go away now. It is time for this MENTALITY to go away now. Permanently. It isn’t funny, it isn’t helpful, and it WILL come back to bite you all in the ass someday.
Louis, if you can’t keep your mouth shut because it’s the right thing to do, do it for your own self-preservation. If you want Democrats to win elections in the future, you need to stop alienating vast swaths of Americans so a microscopic handful of elitist snobs can high five each other over the pwn. Because America needs the Democrats to remain a functional political option, to give voters a reasonable option to both the far left and the far right.
If the Democrats choose instead to continue devolving into a party for the exceedingly privileged and endlessly self-impressed, and the primary thrust of “liberal” culture amounts to getting ones’ jollies from spitting on people who are poorer than you because they don’t watch the right TV shows, well hey, there are only so many hours in the day that you can spend watching TV shows if you have to work for a living. And most of us have to work for a living.
That’s what that whole 99% thing was all about, remember that?
If self-professed Democrats in positions of power continue allowing absolute trash like this “think piece” (using the term loosely since it appears to me very little thinking actually took place during the writing or publishing process) to see the light of day, glorifying the cultural touchstones of 1-percenters while denigrating everyone else, you’re going to be eaten alive, the Bernie Bros on one side and right-wing populism on the other.
Every time a “liberal” pundit craps out yet another pile of divisive vitriol like this, every time a mainstream publication like The Washington Post (Democracy Dies in Darkness, hurr de durr) runs one of these pustules of cultural rot, you undermine the message of your own leadership. You undermine the message of your own philosophy, in which helping the poor is decidedly a thing. You undermine the chances of the Democrats to win elections in the future. And why? For that momentary frisson of joy that some of you get from, as South Park put it, perhaps inelegantly but completely accurately, sniffing your own farts.
A frisson of joy is not enough to make up for what it costs you. Not nearly enough. No liberal will remember Louis Bayard’s obvious, forgettable, and badly written piece in a week; it will fade away into the background, and rightfully so because it imparts nothing of value.
But I will remember it, and I will vote accordingly.
What’s going to happen, Louis — and I suspect the process is already well underway — is that there’s going to be a realization in this country that the proles on the left are just as looked down on, just as reviled, as the supposed “poor hillbillies” who voted Trump, most of whom are not poor hillbillies at all. The Democrats, spurred on by their utter conviction that they have the world completely figured out despite all evidence to the contrary, have turned their back on union workers, loggers, miners, and indeed all the little people of this world, to cater to the whims of a very, very small chunk of self-congratulatory elitist morons who pretty much everyone dislikes (irredeemable misanthropes to a one, they even tend to dislike one another).
That is not going to be a sustainable political strategy for the Democrats in the long term.
People despise elitists, and not without cause. People across the political and cultural aisles agree that elitist snobs suck – something that brings many of us together in solidarity even when we disagree on many other things. In this cultural climate, a political party that continues to cater to elitist sensibilities while alienating vast swaths of the very people it claims to be fighting for, is going to be fighting an uphill battle moving forward.
This truth is obvious and undeniable; I didn’t have to go to an Ivy League college to see it.
Trump is uniquely terrible, I am told, and who am I to argue with conventional wisdom? Despite that, despite a pandemic that has killed 200k Americans and the economic malaise that followed, despite having the full force of the mainstream media, the institutions of higher education, the corporations, and the tech monopolies firmly on their side, the Democrats barely beat him. In light of that brutal fact, rather than continue saying “half the people in this country are ignorant buffoons I shall mercilessly mock” Democrats might want to spend that same mental energy on addressing the many systemic failures within their own party.
“Democrats might want to spend that same mental energy on addressing the many systemic failures within their own party.” Not gonna happen. They didn’t learn a lesson when Trump won, they didn’t learn a lesson when the Repubs took over both houses with “a contract for america”. And the new commentators all say “How could he (a republican) have won, I don’t know anybody who voted for him. When your world experience is Manhattan, what do you expect?
I have a very liberal actress friend, who I like a lot, but anytime she hears anything contradictory to the “liberal mantra” (with facts too!) she shuts down and denies denies denies. She’s never seen much of the country, would only go to liberal areas even if she did. He bubble is strong….She cannot and will not listen to counterpoints are counter arguments. So it goes……Report
Even though I probably disagree with some of your conclusions, Kristin, I certainly agree with your sentiment here.Report
There are a great many liberals who agree with you about this, me included.
That said I’ll ask what exactly you would have us DO about it? We made two runs at Bernie, and it didn’t work. We won’t vote for a Republican because Republican policies are even worse for those groups you name then Democratic policies – though not by much. Third parties are decades from relevance – and that’s even IF they decide to pivot to things like state legislatures and county commissions which is where they need to start. Hell I live in a deep red county in a deep red state, and Democrats couldn’t be bothered to run someone against our Tea Party Republican Congressman whose well known local nickname is No Show.
So what would you have us DO?Report
Don’t bother asking.Report
“One of the biggest reasons why Trump appeals to people is because they despise elitist sensibilities, not because they are “hillbillies”.”
Ahh yes, the man that shits in a gilded toilet and brands his name to golf course resorts and hotels is surely out there to appeal to people that “despise elitist sensibilities.” It has absolutely nothing to do with deep resentment and wanton championing of ignorance by right wing media outlets.
I can’t say I disagree with your sentiment w/r/t the democratic party structure, they eat their young and allow effete dipshits to run the show simply due to fundraising. They certainly aren’t representative of liberal-minded people everywhere as you pointed out.
Curiously I haven’t seen much in the way of conservatives, whether they be of the “elite” or the toothless morons on dirt farms in the “real America” rejecting the obvious criminal enterprise Trump et al are running. I don’t think a bunch of effete liberal snobs writing for the Washington Post are driving people to support what has and is currently occurring.
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I have never understood the attention that Hillbilly elegy received. After reading the book, I realized that Mr. Vance benefitted from have above a 1400 on his math/verbal SAT tests. Mr. Vance could have had exactly same life story but if his SAT scores would have been 1200, he would never have made it to Ohio State and never gone on the Yale Law School.
Of course, what the elites want to do to end the pathway of high SAT scores leading to opportunity for blue collar whites.Report
Maybe Louis needs to leave his elitist bubble and visit some real Americans. Like, go to a barber shop in Compton or visit a taqueria in Boyle Heights.
Or maybe hang out with a group of farmworkers in the San Joaquin Valley or the slaughterhouse workers in Iowa. Maybe chat with some home health care aides and Amazon warehouse workers or hair braiders in Chicago.
Louis could learn how real Americans think, listen to their concerns, and learn why they voted for Biden.Report
You’re saying this like it’s obviously stupid that he should sit and talk with these people.
I think that something like that would be a good. An obvious good. There have been books written about the lunch table problem in high schools and colleges. We’ve discussed them here, on this very site.
Indeed, one of the weird issues that keeps bubbling up is how even Progressive people living in Progressive cities in Progressive states still somehow manage to have segregated school districts as if Brown vs. Board of Education happened in another country entirely.
The fact that people aren’t talking to each other is bad.
That said, if someone chooses to go and talk to X, asking “why didn’t you talk to Y instead?” is kind of a cheap move.
“Oh, you talked with hair braiders in Chicago? Why didn’t you talk to Amazon warehouse workers in Brooklyn?”
You should read Chris Arnade’s book Dignity. You can get it from Amazon. He travels around the country and talks to various patrons in various McDonald’s in various cities (and usually on the wrong side of the tracks).
He does the thing you’re saying Louis ought to do.Report
I don’t think its stupid at all, just commonly overlooked.
How often do we see profiles of slaughterhouse workers, or Amazon center workers, or hair braiders or just the ordinary Americans who live in places like Compton or Cabrini Green?
When we think of a “Southern Evangelical Christian” culture how many people think of Raphael Warnock and his Black congregation? Aren’t they real authentic Christians? But we never hear about them.
Would you disagree if I asserted that immigrant farmworkers are every bit as misunderstood and ignored as rural white people?
Biden won 7 million more votes than Trump. Maybe its time to start paying attention to these Americans.Report
You should read Chris Arnade’s book Dignity. You can get it from Amazon. He travels around the country and talks to various patrons in various McDonald’s in various cities (and usually on the wrong side of the tracks).Report
One of the things that strikes me about a lot of Kristen’s writing is that it seeks to either obscure or outright reverse a simple demographic trend:
That means that rural concerns – the “real Americans” Kristen thinks are being ignored by “elites” – are in fact not on being addressed by urban solutions. Unfortunately for her, solutions to modern economic and social problems aren’t going to cater to a decreasing percentage of the population. Its a big factor in why both parties have effectively been captured by corporate dollars and neoliberal economics. Your refocus of the scope of the article reflects that reality.
What Democrats COULD do – but likely won’t – is get back to tailoring political solutions regionally. Its a LOT more work, but would at least help transition some of Kristen’s fellow rural folks into a better place then they are now.Report
I touched on this in the other thread, but what is striking is how the “concerns” of the Trump voters are almost all cultural and beyond the reach of government action.
There is never any complaint about ostensibly political things- taxes being too high, subsidies being too low, lack of broadband access, crime, etc.
Instead, every Trump speech, every Trumpist Facebook rant, will be almost entirely about fears of cultural marginalization; Political correctness, campus speech codes, transgender issues, abortion, Press 1 For English, low flow toilets, steam catapaults, or yoots wearing droopy pants.
The fundamental principle of the Democratic Party is “Government policy can fix your problem”.
If your problem is cultural, if your grievance is that you feel disrespected and ignored, the Democratic Party has no way to help you.Report
Not completely true. Some (only some) of those cultural grievances come from really bad societal change management. Coal miners feel marginalized because they can’t get middle class sustaining work mining coal AND because their black lung claims are mostly honored in being ignored. Those are societal/economic change issues that have both a policy component and a messaging component. Democrats are abysmal at the messaging component. Which prevents them from successfully selling the policy component. Coal miners want to hear that they are valuable to the nation BEFORE they want to hear that they need to retrain to install windmills. Republicans tell them how valuable they are even as the cut funding requirements for black lung treatments.Report
This is where I would love to be proven wrong.Report
This is a great way to put it.
I’ve said before that we might be best served by looking at coal miners (etc.) and as a mine gets shut down, just saying everyone over 45 who has at least 10 years in industry, you are now retired and can apply for SS or start tapping the IRA/401K if you want. And everyone gets Voc Rehab (similar to what the VA offered me).
To me, I guess, it’s a way to say we value you, but your career is dying. We want to help you move on, and to do that, we are going to do this for you.Report
That’s very interesting, not least because it’s an actual, concrete proposal that elected officials could do something about. Let’s see who will support it and who won’t.Report
No one will, even though it’s essentially what I got from the Navy.Report
Pitch it to Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell and see who reacts how.Report
If only I had their ear…
My guess is Mitch will claim it’s a waste of time, kinda like Covid relief, and Nancy will make some pleasant noises, then forget about it.Report
Everyone thinks his party is right on the issues and terrible on messaging. It’s necessary to prevent cognitive dissonance.Report
So you believe Democrats are wrong on the issues but right on messaging?
Nah that can’t be it since you present that Democrats are wrong on the issues and messaging.
But I just want to make sure.Report
Where did I say that? I mean, if you really want to be sure, where did I say that?Report
Let’s try this:
(1) Superior ideas +
(2) good campaign +
(3) even playing field +
(4) worthy electorate =
guaranteed win
Every time your side doesn’t win, you have to say that at least one of those ingredients was missing. If you go against (3) or (4), you flirt with despair, and if you go against (1), you have to face some hard questions. If you go against (2), there is zero need for re-examination. We just failed to get our message out for some reason.Report
That’s a better construct for discussion purposes, but it suffers from the all too common problem that ideas you may disagree with are inherently bad ideas. They aren’t necessarily. and even bad ideas can also suffer from bad messaging.
Clearly a huge swath of Americans doesn’t want what current Democrats are selling. Equally clearly Democrats are selling some bad concepts and some bad policies to implement good concepts. But when the good concepts with good policies don’t move the needle, that’s pretty much a messaging issue.Report
No, that construct is entirely non-partisan. At least I hope so. That was all in the universal “you”. I personally remember sorting through all those choices many times.Report
One thing I look at is how resistant someone might be to changing following a colossal failure.
“It wasn’t my fault, it was Bob’s fault. It was Sally’s fault. It was the weather. It was the timing. It was the Henny.”
If every single explanation involves not needing to even re-evaluate, then there’s something weird going on.Report
Welcome to human nature, universal, non-partisan human nature. Nothing “weird” about it. If anything is weird, it’s someone doing something else.Report
Team Blue has decided that Afro-American lack of economic progress is because of racism (and not things like marriage rates) and arrests by the police aren’t because of crime rates.
In practice that means telling poor Whites they’re racist if they’re not thrilled that Affirmative Action puts other people further up the line than themselves. That poor Whites are “privileged” because of their skin school and Obama’s kids are repressed because of theirs.
For gun control, Team Blue’s ideas for “sensible” gun control seem to come to rounding up the guns of the law abiding and trusting that mass murderers will obey the law. If you live in an zip code whose murder rate is zero, then this has no upsides.
For economics, the “Fight for $15” translates into “destroy jobs in low-cost areas in the Red States because everyone who is important lives in New York or California”.
For Global Warming, that means “coal/oil jobs shouldn’t exist” and “cars shouldn’t exist because everyone should use public transportation”. Some Red areas depend on oil production, others don’t (and can’t) have public transportation.
“disrespected and ignored” isn’t a terrible way to sum up all this. The Dem party wants to pick winners, that also means picking losers.Report
And Republicans DON’T pick winners and loosers?Report
Big city liberal confiscates law abiding gentleman’s gun, leaving him at the mercy of his enemies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsyw13yrRoo&has_verified=1Report
I don’t know why everybody thought Clint Eastwood was the good guy in that movie when it was obviously Gene Hackman.Report
He was building a house!Report
Both parties could also stop trying so much to use politics to drive culture. It’s an ugly, nasty tool for that purpose, like using a machete to do surgery.Report
A good many Democrats would argue their politics are driven by culture . . . cart and horse stuff to be sure.Report
Politics should be driven by culture. The trouble is when the culture driving the politics decides it should use politics to further drive culture.
Down that path is crap like Jim Crow.Report
Jim Crow was an economic decision. Rathe then reprice to adjust for a free labor market, landowners and businesses designed Jim Crow regulations to reintroduce slavery as an economic construct without the actual capture and buying and selling of people. It was certainly contained within a cultural construct that devalued the lives of former slaves. It wasn’t a culturally driven decision however.Report
A lot of Jim Crow was actually economically counterproductive, though.
Like separate entrances and separate drinking fountains- these were actually more expensive than letting everyone enter and drink together.
A large part of racism is economic gain, but a very large part of it is simply meant to maintain a social hierarchy, and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that.Report
Oh but it wasn’t economically counterproductive. keeping black former slaves separate from whites of all stripes ensure economic stability. Because if blacks started to be treated equal to lowerclass whites (who in many cases were only a couple generations removed from indentured servant status) then those whites might demand more pay or great access to capitol or some other economic advantage. so it was good business to keep blacks separate, and the costs of two doors, two water fountains etc was more then offset by the lower wages, lack of public services etc.Report
Lets get politics out of X is an evergreen American sentiment. It is also often completely wrong wishthinking. What does it mean to use politics to drive culture or culture to drive politics? I think these things are rather intertwined and am not sure why people think they can be separated. The Civil Rights Movement was using politics to drive the society away from the culture of Jim Crow and White Supremacy. Meanwhile, people like Rod Dreher and Josh Hawley exist in a state of permanent meltdown because corporations have discovered that being inclusive is better for profits than just aiming everything at white, heterosexual, nominal Christian men and family.
These things happen simultaneously and organically.Report
Ron Dreher? Who’s that?Report
You’ll be happy to know that I saw a column that quoted an article from a priest who quoted a Dreher article that quoted a seminarian. So I still haven’t read any Dreher, but I can now confirm that a non-liberal has referenced something he quoted.Report
Think of it as the nudge versus the force. Culture driving politics tends towards the nudge, politics driving culture tends towards the force. This is because when it’s actually cultural, you have a significant majority consensus. We as a nation celebrate July 4th, but not May 17th, even though there are parts of the country that do celebrate May 17th.
The Cristian Right doesn’t like abortion. While they have a lot of support, they do not have the consensus, so rather than pushing for programs to reduce the need for abortion (like education and birth control, etc.), they try to use politics to make abortion difficult to get. They want to use politics to drive the culture, because they don’t like the path that would get them there culturally (it’s too long, or it involves things they find objectionable).Report
Rural America has been on decline for a long, long time and this is not going to stop. What doesn’t seem to end is their inability to comprehend or accept that they are basically propped up by urban America. Upstate New York would be a lot poorer and hardscrabble than it is now if it were separated economically from NYC and its suburbs on Long Island. Rural America likes to imagine cities would not exist without it but the reverse is more true.
Plus the “real people” live in the country line is very thinly veiled attacks against the (((cosmopolitan elites))) and other minority groups that live in cities. It is a way of denying legitimacy and voice.
What about city people makes us less real?
We are already holding up and supporting rural America via reverse tax transfers and regulations that require companies provide service to those areas even if they really do not want to. Imagine rural America withot USPS.Report
I grew up in hardscrabble upstate New York, where, despite sucking on the Gotham tit for decades, it was received wisdom that the tax money of decent, God-fearing Amuricans was being shoveled into degenerate New York City for the benefit of Those People. It isn’t true now and it wasn’t true then, but pointing that out would get you in trouble, then and now.Report
The non-urban vote (at 17%) is far too large to simply write off, even if we ignore it’s serious structural advantages in Congress. For example, 13.4% of America is Black. That percentage is very important to the Dem party.
That’s over and above the ethical and logistical problems with “solutions” that come down to cultural cram downs on 17% of the population.Report
Once again, this is a good place to mention that about a third of rural voters voted for Biden.
Yes that means two thirds voted Trump, but that one third is important.
Also too, the bulk of Trump’s supporters are suburban- Los Angeles County alone gave Trump over 1 million votes. And the rural Native American voters in Arizona voted overwhelmingly for Biden.
The rural/ urban divide is real, but the reality is a lot more nuanced; The biggest misconception is “essentializing” this, that is, in assuming that the policies of the Democratic Party are structurally incompatible with rural interests. They aren’t.
The real divide is cultural attitudes, and “rural” is just a marker, not a driver.Report
I pointed to multiple policies where the Dem Party does conflict with rural interests.
Although there’s an element of truth to this, there’s only an element.
When the Dems run in rural areas successfully, they do so by disavowing the policies I mentioned (and others). Similarly, when their GOP opponents try to unseat them, they do so by pointing out that for all their claims of personal opposition to these policies they enable them. “A vote for X is really a vote for Nancy P”.
Platitudes, strawmen, and Gene Hackman movies don’t change that.Report
You don’t think its odd how rural Black people, Hispanics and Natives don’t seem to be bothered by the Democrats positions on guns, minimum wage and climate change?
Weird, innit, that these issues somehow affect mainly rural whites, and mostly men at that.Report
After FDR, the Democratic party got 75% of the Black vote despite the party being run by the KKK in the South. Presumably they were voting for policy + economics and not culture.Report
You make the same mistake politicians and parties make all the time, that a vote for X is an endorsement of EVERYTHING X stands for.
No, it’s not, it’s at best an endorsement for the small handful of, or perhaps single, issues that matter to that person/demographic.
Rural persons of color may be greatly bothered by democrats positions on, say, guns, but the GOPs position on immigration or Trump bothers them more, so the Dems get the vote.Report
This is certainly true, which is also to say that a vote is a very good indication of what is, or isn’t a dealbreaker.
A rural white person may actually support the Dem position on say, guns, but their willingness to accept transpeople is a dealbreaker.
Or to say it another way, the rural white person may like the GOP position on guns, but the GOP racism is not a dealbreaker.
According to conventional political analysis the rural blue collar Black person and White person should have no daylight between their voting patterns; They are in the same class, receive the same messaging, live under the same set of policies.
Yet…there is a striking disparity in their voting patterns.Report
We can only infer the voting habits of the races in a particular district. People in different areas may vote differently for different reasons. People in the same area may vote differently based on their race, or may not, but we can’t prove it either way.Report
So what explains the striking disparity in voting patterns among people who inhabit the same economic class?
The disparities aren’t random. There is a powerful pattern to them, which isn’t explained by the “economic class” analysis.Report
The big parties are multi-factional coalitions. Narrowing them to one issue and applying that issue to the group as a whole is not useful.
The number of Blacks who supported the KKK, Jim Crow, and Segregation rounds to zero… however post FDR we still had 75% vote for the Dems.
The GOP has one-issue voters (i.e. abortion, gun rights, a few others). Team Blue has its own. Most gun rights mono-issue voters are also rural (but not all). If they say they’re voting for gun rights and behave like that, then you asserting that it’s really about race says more about how you view the world than it does about how they view the world.
Another nasty aspect to this is behavior you’d claim is racist if done by Team Red (modern school segregation) is equally prevalent in areas controlled by Team Blue.Report
In the last decade, there have been several examples in states with ballot initiatives of the voters installing a Republican trifecta at the state level, but also passing initiatives that are opposed by those same Republican politicians.
In Utah in 2018 the Republican trifecta continued, but all of medical marijuana, Medicaid expansion, and independent redistricting passed by initiative.Report
Yes. You get into office by virtue signaling to vocal but tiny interest groups.
Only a third or less of all voters vote in primaries. Half of that is a 6th (because Team Blue/Red have different primaries).
So 15% of the population picks the primary. A special interest group with 5% of the total population can be Wrath of God in the primary.
This is where we get Obama’s comments about Defunding the Police being virtue signaling among groups of the like minded and rendering themselves unable to actually change things on a larger level.Report
You aren’t explaining the disparity, though so much as just saying it differently.
For instance, a gun owner might very well be “mono-issue” but that only means that the expressed racism of the GOP is not a dealbreaker for him.
He himself isn’t voting FOR racism, just not voting AGAINST it.
You could say that Chip isn’t voting FOR every item on Biden’s agenda but I am definitely not voting AGAINST them.
I may even have occasional agreements with Republicans, but their racial hostility is a dealbreaker for me, so I vote Democrat, even if it costs me money out of pocket.Report
The level of racism has gone down, a lot, in the last 6 decades.
What’s left is mostly virtue signaling. Not every voter feels the need to virtue signal to Team Blue their purity on this issue.Report
Again, you are extrapolating the data far beyond the set.Report
Just a slight nitpick but Compton California is 65% Latino (generally Mexican-American). The black barber shop in Compton is a cliché from the 1990’s. Also, the slaughterhouse workers in Iowa are also probably Hispanic immigrants. If you want to find white blue collar workers, I suggest the ammunition plant in Burlington Iowa.
Everyone who want to write about the U.S. should probably drive across the U.S. preferriably on something like US. 50 and avoid the interstates.Report
It’s worth pointing out Haidt’s research, which found that conservatives had a much better understanding of the views of liberals than vice-versa. As you point out, a likely explanation for this is that it’s much easier for liberals to avoid exposure to conservative thought than vice-versa.Report
Haidt’s research has problems. One of the biggest is that liberals dont’ see conservative views. Then of course we get into what are conservative views vs what are liberal views which has resulted in some hilarious conversations. Another issue would be where and how people were raised. Plenty of liberal types grew up in conservative communities and with conservative parents. So they would have some ideas that would be accurate.Report
Some liberals understand conservatism, sure. But it’s twice as likely that they don’t than a conservative not understanding liberalism.Report
It is hard to understand thinking that the presidential election was stolen, or that Giuliani and Powell are anything other than clowns and grifters. Could you recommend a book?Report
https://www.amazon.com/What-Happened-Hillary-Rodham-Clinton/dp/1501175564 for the first part.Report
That can’t be it. Hillary lost in 2016 while the Dominion plot goes back to when Hugo Chavez was still alive. (I still don’t understand the legal theory that criminals are immunized from investigation if they’re part of a political campaign.)
Oh, I left out Lin Wood, who is now leading crowds in the Lock Him Up chant, this time aimed at the GOP office holder and Trump supporter, Brian Kemp.Report
I’m pretty sure it is. If you want to be consistent in complaining about election-stealing claims, do it. If you don’t, admit it. You can’t raise the issue then evade it. Even Wile E. Coyote has the grace to hold up the “yikes” sign when he walks into a trap that he set.Report
Sure, I remember when Democrats called for martial law so Trump couldn’t become president and threatened the lives of election officials and poll workers. Exactly the same thing as criminal investigations that led to convictions.Report
I don’t even know what specifics you’re referring to here, but you’re the one who set the terms that “thinking that the presidential election was stolen” was outrageous. The Democrats did that in 2000, 2004, and every minute from 2016 to present. The specifics don’t have to match. Your side denied that Trump was the legitimate president for four years. You can’t come back from that in a few minutes. You need to carry around the shame from undermining faith in the institutions, for at least a decade.Report
I know what conservatism is now: being so convinced that you’re right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong that specifics don’t matter. No wonder Trump is so popular,Report
Specifics don’t have to match for a comparison to be valid.Report
NO, we didn’t. We didn’t claim votes or voting machines were altered to get him elected. We didn’t call for the Supreme Court to void the whole thing, we didn’t ask Obama to declare martial law and redo the election under military supervision.
We did say – as did the Republican controlled Senate intelligence committee, the FBI, the Mueller Report, and all 17 intelligence agencies that report to the DNI – That Mr. Trump’s election was aided and abetted by active Russian disinformation and that his campaign had illegal contacts with Russian intelligence agents and proxies. The Justice Department obtained 17 convictions and or guilty please on that claim.
We impeached him for attempting to bribe a foreign leader to obtain alleged campaign dirt on Joe Biden – dirt that as it turns out doesn’t exist no matter how hard George Turner fever dreams it. HIs party refused to convict him.
We never questioned the vote count. our candidate conceded within 48 hours and his predecessor started the transition immediately. We don’t like his style or his policies and we have fought against them within the system but he is and has been the duly elected President for nearly 4 years.
As to 2000 – I was a voter in Florida in that election. That the Supreme Court cut off a legitimate recount (in spite of all the political theatre surrounding the recount) was indeed a significant hit to faith in democracy. Bluntly a Supreme Court led by a republican appointee usurped states rights to control their election processes so I’m not sure my side had anything to do with that action. But again, once the Supreme Court Ruled against Mr. Gore, he conceded and called the nation to rally around Mr. Bush. He didn’t contest the vote count, and he never said the only way the election was valid was if he won. He also didn’t have surrogates threatening sedition because he lost.
One side of the aisle is indeed not like the other, and that is the side that needs to be basted long and hard in public shame. Democrats are not that side.Report
“HIs party refused to convict him.” Yep, and the Dems refused to convict Clinton. That’s really not an argument point you’d want to be making to support your case.Report
when discussing the claim that dems never considered Trump a legitimate President, and the claim the election was stolen, you have to fully discuss the the actions that surround him. Pinky actually didn’t go back to Clinton, but if he had I would have noted Clinton’s impeachement as well. Clinton and Trump are two presidents in my lifetime who have been impeached. Its a stain the deservedly wear, as i have also said elsewhere. Funny thing is, I don’t recall Clinton’s impeachment ever being listed as an example of Republicans believing he was an illegitimate President nefariously elected. Which is the accusation made generally about about Democrats and Mr. Trump.Report
Questioner: “He is an illegitimate president in my mind….He’s illegitimate and my biggest fear is he’s going to do it again…”
Biden: “Folks, look, I absolutely agree.”
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Hillary Clinton: “I believe he knows he’s an illegitimate president.”
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Jimmy Carter: “I think the [Russian] interference, although not yet quantified, if fully investigated would show that Trump didn’t actually win the election in 2016.”
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John Lewis: “I do not see the president-elect as a legitimate president.” (early 2017)
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Link to “ILLEGITIMATE PRESIDENT” bumper sticker:
https://www.progressivebumperstickers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=688
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“Young Americans: Most see Trump as illegitimate president” (CNBC story, March 18, 2017)
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“Dozens of Democrats to skip ‘illegitimate’ president’s inauguration; Trump backers decry ‘tantrum’” (Washington Times story, January 16, 2017)
As I said to Mike, the specifics don’t have to be identical for the comparison to be valid.Report
BY that rubric we haven’t had a legitimate president since Eisenhower – who could not get elected for dog catcher in the modern Republican Party.Report
Dominion’s director of product and security, Eric Coomer, is in an undisclosed location, hiding from death threats resulting from Trump’s lies about Dominion’s voting machines.
This is exactly like Hillary calling Trump “illegitimate”, except for some meaningless specifics.Report
One of the problems that lead peopel to dislike other groups is taking the one person they hate the most as the avatar for the entire group. I don’t know Lou and doubt any liberal here does. So there is nothing we can do about him. He might represent a type of thought though since i’ve never heard of him i can’t really say. By the same token glenn beck, limbaugh and carlson represent a type of conserrive thought that is smug, vicsious and insluting. But plenty of conserives don’t subscribe to that. It is wrong to take every consertive as buying into those guys shit. So if you don’t like Lou then don’t pay attention to him. There will always be somebody out there whose work you hate and fits your sterotype. Move past that to find those that don’t fit your sterotype.
I agree with people trying to bridge our partisan divide. That starts with mutual respect as people even if we disagree on politics. One aspect of that is accepting that there a lot of people that voted for trump and even more that voted for clinton and especially Biden. There is no One True American. City, rural, suburban, weird sort of exurb that is hard to define: all american. Plenty of people vote D that are working class and not elite.Report
I agree with that comment, Greginak. It’s probably one of the ways in which I see things differently from how Kirstin does, both in this OP and others.Report
Bayard’s piece was meant to be humorous. I can’t get angry at him for playing up stereotypes. It had, like, one gag, so I can’t say it was funny, but it definitely wasn’t supposed to be serious.
Apropos of nothing, I just recently found the least funny thing in the world: watching Deadpool a second time.Report
What I appreciate about this site is two-fold:
A) Kristine’s pure undistilled white rural cultural resentments. It makes for good brunch readings.
B)The fact that for the vast majority of folks on this site, Democrat and liberal now just mean white college educated people they interact with online or see on TV, not, you know, working class urban folks or suburban black women or anything else.Report
Bayard writes like Democrat / liberal means white Democrat / liberal, too. I assume that was part of his schtick, but then, you didn’t call *him* out for it.Report
I didn’t even bother to read him. Also, in looking at his piece, it seems pretty much satire.
But yes, I feel comfortable saying – we don’t need more articles on the culture of upper middle class white people. Except teh gays.
We always need teh gaysReport
Did you read and understand the linked article? Because it doesn’t show from your take here.Report
I finally saw your comment and decided to read the article that supposedly caused this latest outpouring. You’re dead right; she didn’t get it. But that doesn’t matter. Our pointing out that she didn’t get it would be just another example of smug, liberal, condescension and ignorance. As someone whose history straddles the warring cultures, I return to what I’ve said before: both sides misunderstand the other, but only one resents the other.Report