We Don’t Need ‘City-Slicker Elegy’

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Kristin Devine

Kristin has humbly retired as Ordinary Times' friendly neighborhood political whipping girl to focus on culture and gender issues. She lives in a wildlife refuge in rural Washington state with too many children and way too many animals. There's also a blog which most people would very much disapprove of https://atomicfeminist.com/

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  1. Avatar Damon
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    says:

    “Democrats might want to spend that same mental energy on addressing the many systemic failures within their own party.” Not gonna happen. They didn’t learn a lesson when Trump won, they didn’t learn a lesson when the Repubs took over both houses with “a contract for america”. And the new commentators all say “How could he (a republican) have won, I don’t know anybody who voted for him. When your world experience is Manhattan, what do you expect?

    I have a very liberal actress friend, who I like a lot, but anytime she hears anything contradictory to the “liberal mantra” (with facts too!) she shuts down and denies denies denies. She’s never seen much of the country, would only go to liberal areas even if she did. He bubble is strong….She cannot and will not listen to counterpoints are counter arguments. So it goes……Report

  2. Avatar Gabriel Conroy
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    says:

    Even though I probably disagree with some of your conclusions, Kristin, I certainly agree with your sentiment here.Report

  3. Avatar Philip H
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    The Democrats, spurred on by their utter conviction that they have the world completely figured out despite all evidence to the contrary, have turned their back on union workers, loggers, miners, and indeed all the little people of this world, to cater to the whims of a very, very small chunk of self-congratulatory elitist morons who pretty much everyone dislikes.

    There are a great many liberals who agree with you about this, me included.

    That said I’ll ask what exactly you would have us DO about it? We made two runs at Bernie, and it didn’t work. We won’t vote for a Republican because Republican policies are even worse for those groups you name then Democratic policies – though not by much. Third parties are decades from relevance – and that’s even IF they decide to pivot to things like state legislatures and county commissions which is where they need to start. Hell I live in a deep red county in a deep red state, and Democrats couldn’t be bothered to run someone against our Tea Party Republican Congressman whose well known local nickname is No Show.

    So what would you have us DO?Report

  4. Christopher Bradley Christopher Bradley
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    says:

    “One of the biggest reasons why Trump appeals to people is because they despise elitist sensibilities, not because they are “hillbillies”.”

    Ahh yes, the man that shits in a gilded toilet and brands his name to golf course resorts and hotels is surely out there to appeal to people that “despise elitist sensibilities.” It has absolutely nothing to do with deep resentment and wanton championing of ignorance by right wing media outlets.

    I can’t say I disagree with your sentiment w/r/t the democratic party structure, they eat their young and allow effete dipshits to run the show simply due to fundraising. They certainly aren’t representative of liberal-minded people everywhere as you pointed out.

    Curiously I haven’t seen much in the way of conservatives, whether they be of the “elite” or the toothless morons on dirt farms in the “real America” rejecting the obvious criminal enterprise Trump et al are running. I don’t think a bunch of effete liberal snobs writing for the Washington Post are driving people to support what has and is currently occurring.

    Report

  5. Avatar superdestroyer
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    I have never understood the attention that Hillbilly elegy received. After reading the book, I realized that Mr. Vance benefitted from have above a 1400 on his math/verbal SAT tests. Mr. Vance could have had exactly same life story but if his SAT scores would have been 1200, he would never have made it to Ohio State and never gone on the Yale Law School.

    Of course, what the elites want to do to end the pathway of high SAT scores leading to opportunity for blue collar whites.Report

  6. Avatar Chip Daniels
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    says:

    Maybe Louis needs to leave his elitist bubble and visit some real Americans. Like, go to a barber shop in Compton or visit a taqueria in Boyle Heights.

    Or maybe hang out with a group of farmworkers in the San Joaquin Valley or the slaughterhouse workers in Iowa. Maybe chat with some home health care aides and Amazon warehouse workers or hair braiders in Chicago.

    Louis could learn how real Americans think, listen to their concerns, and learn why they voted for Biden.Report

    • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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      says:

      You’re saying this like it’s obviously stupid that he should sit and talk with these people.

      I think that something like that would be a good. An obvious good. There have been books written about the lunch table problem in high schools and colleges. We’ve discussed them here, on this very site.

      Indeed, one of the weird issues that keeps bubbling up is how even Progressive people living in Progressive cities in Progressive states still somehow manage to have segregated school districts as if Brown vs. Board of Education happened in another country entirely.

      The fact that people aren’t talking to each other is bad.

      That said, if someone chooses to go and talk to X, asking “why didn’t you talk to Y instead?” is kind of a cheap move.

      “Oh, you talked with hair braiders in Chicago? Why didn’t you talk to Amazon warehouse workers in Brooklyn?”

      You should read Chris Arnade’s book Dignity. You can get it from Amazon. He travels around the country and talks to various patrons in various McDonald’s in various cities (and usually on the wrong side of the tracks).

      He does the thing you’re saying Louis ought to do.Report

      • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        I don’t think its stupid at all, just commonly overlooked.

        How often do we see profiles of slaughterhouse workers, or Amazon center workers, or hair braiders or just the ordinary Americans who live in places like Compton or Cabrini Green?

        When we think of a “Southern Evangelical Christian” culture how many people think of Raphael Warnock and his Black congregation? Aren’t they real authentic Christians? But we never hear about them.

        Would you disagree if I asserted that immigrant farmworkers are every bit as misunderstood and ignored as rural white people?

        Biden won 7 million more votes than Trump. Maybe its time to start paying attention to these Americans.Report

    • Avatar Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels
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      says:

      One of the things that strikes me about a lot of Kristen’s writing is that it seeks to either obscure or outright reverse a simple demographic trend:

      It is estimated that 83% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas, up from 64% in 1950. By 2050, 89% of the U.S. population and 68% of the world population is projected to live in urban areas. http://css.umich.edu/factsheets/us-cities-factsheet

      That means that rural concerns – the “real Americans” Kristen thinks are being ignored by “elites” – are in fact not on being addressed by urban solutions. Unfortunately for her, solutions to modern economic and social problems aren’t going to cater to a decreasing percentage of the population. Its a big factor in why both parties have effectively been captured by corporate dollars and neoliberal economics. Your refocus of the scope of the article reflects that reality.

      What Democrats COULD do – but likely won’t – is get back to tailoring political solutions regionally. Its a LOT more work, but would at least help transition some of Kristen’s fellow rural folks into a better place then they are now.Report

      • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
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        I touched on this in the other thread, but what is striking is how the “concerns” of the Trump voters are almost all cultural and beyond the reach of government action.

        There is never any complaint about ostensibly political things- taxes being too high, subsidies being too low, lack of broadband access, crime, etc.

        Instead, every Trump speech, every Trumpist Facebook rant, will be almost entirely about fears of cultural marginalization; Political correctness, campus speech codes, transgender issues, abortion, Press 1 For English, low flow toilets, steam catapaults, or yoots wearing droopy pants.

        The fundamental principle of the Democratic Party is “Government policy can fix your problem”.

        If your problem is cultural, if your grievance is that you feel disrespected and ignored, the Democratic Party has no way to help you.Report

        • Avatar Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels
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          Not completely true. Some (only some) of those cultural grievances come from really bad societal change management. Coal miners feel marginalized because they can’t get middle class sustaining work mining coal AND because their black lung claims are mostly honored in being ignored. Those are societal/economic change issues that have both a policy component and a messaging component. Democrats are abysmal at the messaging component. Which prevents them from successfully selling the policy component. Coal miners want to hear that they are valuable to the nation BEFORE they want to hear that they need to retrain to install windmills. Republicans tell them how valuable they are even as the cut funding requirements for black lung treatments.Report

          • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
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            This is where I would love to be proven wrong.Report

          • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            This is a great way to put it.

            I’ve said before that we might be best served by looking at coal miners (etc.) and as a mine gets shut down, just saying everyone over 45 who has at least 10 years in industry, you are now retired and can apply for SS or start tapping the IRA/401K if you want. And everyone gets Voc Rehab (similar to what the VA offered me).

            To me, I guess, it’s a way to say we value you, but your career is dying. We want to help you move on, and to do that, we are going to do this for you.Report

          • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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            Everyone thinks his party is right on the issues and terrible on messaging. It’s necessary to prevent cognitive dissonance.Report

            • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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              So you believe Democrats are wrong on the issues but right on messaging?

              Nah that can’t be it since you present that Democrats are wrong on the issues and messaging.

              But I just want to make sure.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                Where did I say that? I mean, if you really want to be sure, where did I say that?Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Let’s try this:

                (1) Superior ideas +
                (2) good campaign +
                (3) even playing field +
                (4) worthy electorate =
                guaranteed win

                Every time your side doesn’t win, you have to say that at least one of those ingredients was missing. If you go against (3) or (4), you flirt with despair, and if you go against (1), you have to face some hard questions. If you go against (2), there is zero need for re-examination. We just failed to get our message out for some reason.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                That’s a better construct for discussion purposes, but it suffers from the all too common problem that ideas you may disagree with are inherently bad ideas. They aren’t necessarily. and even bad ideas can also suffer from bad messaging.

                Clearly a huge swath of Americans doesn’t want what current Democrats are selling. Equally clearly Democrats are selling some bad concepts and some bad policies to implement good concepts. But when the good concepts with good policies don’t move the needle, that’s pretty much a messaging issue.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                No, that construct is entirely non-partisan. At least I hope so. That was all in the universal “you”. I personally remember sorting through all those choices many times.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                One thing I look at is how resistant someone might be to changing following a colossal failure.

                “It wasn’t my fault, it was Bob’s fault. It was Sally’s fault. It was the weather. It was the timing. It was the Henny.”

                If every single explanation involves not needing to even re-evaluate, then there’s something weird going on.Report

              • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                Welcome to human nature, universal, non-partisan human nature. Nothing “weird” about it. If anything is weird, it’s someone doing something else.Report

        • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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          If your problem is cultural, if your grievance is that you feel disrespected and ignored, the Democratic Party has no way to help you.

          Team Blue has decided that Afro-American lack of economic progress is because of racism (and not things like marriage rates) and arrests by the police aren’t because of crime rates.

          In practice that means telling poor Whites they’re racist if they’re not thrilled that Affirmative Action puts other people further up the line than themselves. That poor Whites are “privileged” because of their skin school and Obama’s kids are repressed because of theirs.

          For gun control, Team Blue’s ideas for “sensible” gun control seem to come to rounding up the guns of the law abiding and trusting that mass murderers will obey the law. If you live in an zip code whose murder rate is zero, then this has no upsides.

          For economics, the “Fight for $15” translates into “destroy jobs in low-cost areas in the Red States because everyone who is important lives in New York or California”.

          For Global Warming, that means “coal/oil jobs shouldn’t exist” and “cars shouldn’t exist because everyone should use public transportation”. Some Red areas depend on oil production, others don’t (and can’t) have public transportation.

          “disrespected and ignored” isn’t a terrible way to sum up all this. The Dem party wants to pick winners, that also means picking losers.Report

      • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        Both parties could also stop trying so much to use politics to drive culture. It’s an ugly, nasty tool for that purpose, like using a machete to do surgery.Report

        • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
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          says:

          A good many Democrats would argue their politics are driven by culture . . . cart and horse stuff to be sure.Report

          • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            Politics should be driven by culture. The trouble is when the culture driving the politics decides it should use politics to further drive culture.

            Down that path is crap like Jim Crow.Report

            • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
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              says:

              Jim Crow was an economic decision. Rathe then reprice to adjust for a free labor market, landowners and businesses designed Jim Crow regulations to reintroduce slavery as an economic construct without the actual capture and buying and selling of people. It was certainly contained within a cultural construct that devalued the lives of former slaves. It wasn’t a culturally driven decision however.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
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                A lot of Jim Crow was actually economically counterproductive, though.

                Like separate entrances and separate drinking fountains- these were actually more expensive than letting everyone enter and drink together.

                A large part of racism is economic gain, but a very large part of it is simply meant to maintain a social hierarchy, and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Oh but it wasn’t economically counterproductive. keeping black former slaves separate from whites of all stripes ensure economic stability. Because if blacks started to be treated equal to lowerclass whites (who in many cases were only a couple generations removed from indentured servant status) then those whites might demand more pay or great access to capitol or some other economic advantage. so it was good business to keep blacks separate, and the costs of two doors, two water fountains etc was more then offset by the lower wages, lack of public services etc.Report

        • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon
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          Lets get politics out of X is an evergreen American sentiment. It is also often completely wrong wishthinking. What does it mean to use politics to drive culture or culture to drive politics? I think these things are rather intertwined and am not sure why people think they can be separated. The Civil Rights Movement was using politics to drive the society away from the culture of Jim Crow and White Supremacy. Meanwhile, people like Rod Dreher and Josh Hawley exist in a state of permanent meltdown because corporations have discovered that being inclusive is better for profits than just aiming everything at white, heterosexual, nominal Christian men and family.

          These things happen simultaneously and organically.Report

          • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Saul Degraw
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            says:

            Ron Dreher? Who’s that?Report

            • Avatar Pinky in reply to CJColucci
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              says:

              You’ll be happy to know that I saw a column that quoted an article from a priest who quoted a Dreher article that quoted a seminarian. So I still haven’t read any Dreher, but I can now confirm that a non-liberal has referenced something he quoted.Report

          • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw
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            says:

            Think of it as the nudge versus the force. Culture driving politics tends towards the nudge, politics driving culture tends towards the force. This is because when it’s actually cultural, you have a significant majority consensus. We as a nation celebrate July 4th, but not May 17th, even though there are parts of the country that do celebrate May 17th.

            The Cristian Right doesn’t like abortion. While they have a lot of support, they do not have the consensus, so rather than pushing for programs to reduce the need for abortion (like education and birth control, etc.), they try to use politics to make abortion difficult to get. They want to use politics to drive the culture, because they don’t like the path that would get them there culturally (it’s too long, or it involves things they find objectionable).Report

      • Avatar Saul Degraw in reply to Philip H
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        Rural America has been on decline for a long, long time and this is not going to stop. What doesn’t seem to end is their inability to comprehend or accept that they are basically propped up by urban America. Upstate New York would be a lot poorer and hardscrabble than it is now if it were separated economically from NYC and its suburbs on Long Island. Rural America likes to imagine cities would not exist without it but the reverse is more true.

        Plus the “real people” live in the country line is very thinly veiled attacks against the (((cosmopolitan elites))) and other minority groups that live in cities. It is a way of denying legitimacy and voice.
        What about city people makes us less real?

        We are already holding up and supporting rural America via reverse tax transfers and regulations that require companies provide service to those areas even if they really do not want to. Imagine rural America withot USPS.Report

        • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Saul Degraw
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          says:

          I grew up in hardscrabble upstate New York, where, despite sucking on the Gotham tit for decades, it was received wisdom that the tax money of decent, God-fearing Amuricans was being shoveled into degenerate New York City for the benefit of Those People. It isn’t true now and it wasn’t true then, but pointing that out would get you in trouble, then and now.Report

      • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Philip H
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        …83% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas

        …solutions to modern economic and social problems aren’t going to cater to a decreasing percentage of the population.

        The non-urban vote (at 17%) is far too large to simply write off, even if we ignore it’s serious structural advantages in Congress. For example, 13.4% of America is Black. That percentage is very important to the Dem party.

        That’s over and above the ethical and logistical problems with “solutions” that come down to cultural cram downs on 17% of the population.Report

        • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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          says:

          Once again, this is a good place to mention that about a third of rural voters voted for Biden.
          Yes that means two thirds voted Trump, but that one third is important.

          Also too, the bulk of Trump’s supporters are suburban- Los Angeles County alone gave Trump over 1 million votes. And the rural Native American voters in Arizona voted overwhelmingly for Biden.

          The rural/ urban divide is real, but the reality is a lot more nuanced; The biggest misconception is “essentializing” this, that is, in assuming that the policies of the Democratic Party are structurally incompatible with rural interests. They aren’t.

          The real divide is cultural attitudes, and “rural” is just a marker, not a driver.Report

          • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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            in assuming that the policies of the Democratic Party are structurally incompatible with rural interests. They aren’t.

            I pointed to multiple policies where the Dem Party does conflict with rural interests.

            The real divide is cultural attitudes, and “rural” is just a marker, not a driver.

            Although there’s an element of truth to this, there’s only an element.

            When the Dems run in rural areas successfully, they do so by disavowing the policies I mentioned (and others). Similarly, when their GOP opponents try to unseat them, they do so by pointing out that for all their claims of personal opposition to these policies they enable them. “A vote for X is really a vote for Nancy P”.

            Platitudes, strawmen, and Gene Hackman movies don’t change that.Report

            • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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              You don’t think its odd how rural Black people, Hispanics and Natives don’t seem to be bothered by the Democrats positions on guns, minimum wage and climate change?

              Weird, innit, that these issues somehow affect mainly rural whites, and mostly men at that.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                After FDR, the Democratic party got 75% of the Black vote despite the party being run by the KKK in the South. Presumably they were voting for policy + economics and not culture.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels
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                You make the same mistake politicians and parties make all the time, that a vote for X is an endorsement of EVERYTHING X stands for.

                No, it’s not, it’s at best an endorsement for the small handful of, or perhaps single, issues that matter to that person/demographic.

                Rural persons of color may be greatly bothered by democrats positions on, say, guns, but the GOPs position on immigration or Trump bothers them more, so the Dems get the vote.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon
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                This is certainly true, which is also to say that a vote is a very good indication of what is, or isn’t a dealbreaker.

                A rural white person may actually support the Dem position on say, guns, but their willingness to accept transpeople is a dealbreaker.

                Or to say it another way, the rural white person may like the GOP position on guns, but the GOP racism is not a dealbreaker.

                According to conventional political analysis the rural blue collar Black person and White person should have no daylight between their voting patterns; They are in the same class, receive the same messaging, live under the same set of policies.

                Yet…there is a striking disparity in their voting patterns.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels
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                We can only infer the voting habits of the races in a particular district. People in different areas may vote differently for different reasons. People in the same area may vote differently based on their race, or may not, but we can’t prove it either way.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky
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                So what explains the striking disparity in voting patterns among people who inhabit the same economic class?

                The disparities aren’t random. There is a powerful pattern to them, which isn’t explained by the “economic class” analysis.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                There is a powerful pattern to them, which isn’t explained by the “economic class” analysis.

                The big parties are multi-factional coalitions. Narrowing them to one issue and applying that issue to the group as a whole is not useful.

                The number of Blacks who supported the KKK, Jim Crow, and Segregation rounds to zero… however post FDR we still had 75% vote for the Dems.

                The GOP has one-issue voters (i.e. abortion, gun rights, a few others). Team Blue has its own. Most gun rights mono-issue voters are also rural (but not all). If they say they’re voting for gun rights and behave like that, then you asserting that it’s really about race says more about how you view the world than it does about how they view the world.

                Another nasty aspect to this is behavior you’d claim is racist if done by Team Red (modern school segregation) is equally prevalent in areas controlled by Team Blue.Report

              • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to Dark Matter
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                In the last decade, there have been several examples in states with ballot initiatives of the voters installing a Republican trifecta at the state level, but also passing initiatives that are opposed by those same Republican politicians.

                In Utah in 2018 the Republican trifecta continued, but all of medical marijuana, Medicaid expansion, and independent redistricting passed by initiative.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain
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                Yes. You get into office by virtue signaling to vocal but tiny interest groups.

                Only a third or less of all voters vote in primaries. Half of that is a 6th (because Team Blue/Red have different primaries).

                So 15% of the population picks the primary. A special interest group with 5% of the total population can be Wrath of God in the primary.

                This is where we get Obama’s comments about Defunding the Police being virtue signaling among groups of the like minded and rendering themselves unable to actually change things on a larger level.Report

              • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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                You aren’t explaining the disparity, though so much as just saying it differently.

                For instance, a gun owner might very well be “mono-issue” but that only means that the expressed racism of the GOP is not a dealbreaker for him.

                He himself isn’t voting FOR racism, just not voting AGAINST it.

                You could say that Chip isn’t voting FOR every item on Biden’s agenda but I am definitely not voting AGAINST them.
                I may even have occasional agreements with Republicans, but their racial hostility is a dealbreaker for me, so I vote Democrat, even if it costs me money out of pocket.Report

              • Avatar Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                that only means that the expressed racism of the GOP is not a dealbreaker for him.

                The level of racism has gone down, a lot, in the last 6 decades.

                What’s left is mostly virtue signaling. Not every voter feels the need to virtue signal to Team Blue their purity on this issue.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels
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                Again, you are extrapolating the data far beyond the set.Report

    • Avatar superdestroyer in reply to Chip Daniels
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      Just a slight nitpick but Compton California is 65% Latino (generally Mexican-American). The black barber shop in Compton is a cliché from the 1990’s. Also, the slaughterhouse workers in Iowa are also probably Hispanic immigrants. If you want to find white blue collar workers, I suggest the ammunition plant in Burlington Iowa.

      Everyone who want to write about the U.S. should probably drive across the U.S. preferriably on something like US. 50 and avoid the interstates.Report

  7. Avatar Brandon Berg
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    says:

    It’s worth pointing out Haidt’s research, which found that conservatives had a much better understanding of the views of liberals than vice-versa. As you point out, a likely explanation for this is that it’s much easier for liberals to avoid exposure to conservative thought than vice-versa.Report

    • Avatar greginak in reply to Brandon Berg
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      Haidt’s research has problems. One of the biggest is that liberals dont’ see conservative views. Then of course we get into what are conservative views vs what are liberal views which has resulted in some hilarious conversations. Another issue would be where and how people were raised. Plenty of liberal types grew up in conservative communities and with conservative parents. So they would have some ideas that would be accurate.Report

      • Avatar Pinky in reply to greginak
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        Some liberals understand conservatism, sure. But it’s twice as likely that they don’t than a conservative not understanding liberalism.Report

        • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky
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          says:

          It is hard to understand thinking that the presidential election was stolen, or that Giuliani and Powell are anything other than clowns and grifters. Could you recommend a book?Report

            • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky
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              says:

              That can’t be it. Hillary lost in 2016 while the Dominion plot goes back to when Hugo Chavez was still alive. (I still don’t understand the legal theory that criminals are immunized from investigation if they’re part of a political campaign.)

              Oh, I left out Lin Wood, who is now leading crowds in the Lock Him Up chant, this time aimed at the GOP office holder and Trump supporter, Brian Kemp.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Mike Schilling
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                says:

                I’m pretty sure it is. If you want to be consistent in complaining about election-stealing claims, do it. If you don’t, admit it. You can’t raise the issue then evade it. Even Wile E. Coyote has the grace to hold up the “yikes” sign when he walks into a trap that he set.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Sure, I remember when Democrats called for martial law so Trump couldn’t become president and threatened the lives of election officials and poll workers. Exactly the same thing as criminal investigations that led to convictions.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Mike Schilling
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                I don’t even know what specifics you’re referring to here, but you’re the one who set the terms that “thinking that the presidential election was stolen” was outrageous. The Democrats did that in 2000, 2004, and every minute from 2016 to present. The specifics don’t have to match. Your side denied that Trump was the legitimate president for four years. You can’t come back from that in a few minutes. You need to carry around the shame from undermining faith in the institutions, for at least a decade.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                I know what conservatism is now: being so convinced that you’re right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong that specifics don’t matter. No wonder Trump is so popular,Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Mike Schilling
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                says:

                Specifics don’t have to match for a comparison to be valid.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                Your side denied that Trump was the legitimate president for four years.

                NO, we didn’t. We didn’t claim votes or voting machines were altered to get him elected. We didn’t call for the Supreme Court to void the whole thing, we didn’t ask Obama to declare martial law and redo the election under military supervision.

                We did say – as did the Republican controlled Senate intelligence committee, the FBI, the Mueller Report, and all 17 intelligence agencies that report to the DNI – That Mr. Trump’s election was aided and abetted by active Russian disinformation and that his campaign had illegal contacts with Russian intelligence agents and proxies. The Justice Department obtained 17 convictions and or guilty please on that claim.

                We impeached him for attempting to bribe a foreign leader to obtain alleged campaign dirt on Joe Biden – dirt that as it turns out doesn’t exist no matter how hard George Turner fever dreams it. HIs party refused to convict him.

                We never questioned the vote count. our candidate conceded within 48 hours and his predecessor started the transition immediately. We don’t like his style or his policies and we have fought against them within the system but he is and has been the duly elected President for nearly 4 years.

                As to 2000 – I was a voter in Florida in that election. That the Supreme Court cut off a legitimate recount (in spite of all the political theatre surrounding the recount) was indeed a significant hit to faith in democracy. Bluntly a Supreme Court led by a republican appointee usurped states rights to control their election processes so I’m not sure my side had anything to do with that action. But again, once the Supreme Court Ruled against Mr. Gore, he conceded and called the nation to rally around Mr. Bush. He didn’t contest the vote count, and he never said the only way the election was valid was if he won. He also didn’t have surrogates threatening sedition because he lost.

                One side of the aisle is indeed not like the other, and that is the side that needs to be basted long and hard in public shame. Democrats are not that side.Report

              • Avatar Damon in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                “HIs party refused to convict him.” Yep, and the Dems refused to convict Clinton. That’s really not an argument point you’d want to be making to support your case.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Damon
                Ignored
                says:

                when discussing the claim that dems never considered Trump a legitimate President, and the claim the election was stolen, you have to fully discuss the the actions that surround him. Pinky actually didn’t go back to Clinton, but if he had I would have noted Clinton’s impeachement as well. Clinton and Trump are two presidents in my lifetime who have been impeached. Its a stain the deservedly wear, as i have also said elsewhere. Funny thing is, I don’t recall Clinton’s impeachment ever being listed as an example of Republicans believing he was an illegitimate President nefariously elected. Which is the accusation made generally about about Democrats and Mr. Trump.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Questioner: “He is an illegitimate president in my mind….He’s illegitimate and my biggest fear is he’s going to do it again…”
                Biden: “Folks, look, I absolutely agree.”

                Hillary Clinton: “I believe he knows he’s an illegitimate president.”

                Jimmy Carter: “I think the [Russian] interference, although not yet quantified, if fully investigated would show that Trump didn’t actually win the election in 2016.”

                John Lewis: “I do not see the president-elect as a legitimate president.” (early 2017)

                Link to “ILLEGITIMATE PRESIDENT” bumper sticker:
                https://www.progressivebumperstickers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=688

                “Young Americans: Most see Trump as illegitimate president” (CNBC story, March 18, 2017)

                “Dozens of Democrats to skip ‘illegitimate’ president’s inauguration; Trump backers decry ‘tantrum’” (Washington Times story, January 16, 2017)

                As I said to Mike, the specifics don’t have to be identical for the comparison to be valid.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                BY that rubric we haven’t had a legitimate president since Eisenhower – who could not get elected for dog catcher in the modern Republican Party.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                Dominion’s director of product and security, Eric Coomer, is in an undisclosed location, hiding from death threats resulting from Trump’s lies about Dominion’s voting machines.

                This is exactly like Hillary calling Trump “illegitimate”, except for some meaningless specifics.Report

  8. Avatar greginak
    Ignored
    says:

    One of the problems that lead peopel to dislike other groups is taking the one person they hate the most as the avatar for the entire group. I don’t know Lou and doubt any liberal here does. So there is nothing we can do about him. He might represent a type of thought though since i’ve never heard of him i can’t really say. By the same token glenn beck, limbaugh and carlson represent a type of conserrive thought that is smug, vicsious and insluting. But plenty of conserives don’t subscribe to that. It is wrong to take every consertive as buying into those guys shit. So if you don’t like Lou then don’t pay attention to him. There will always be somebody out there whose work you hate and fits your sterotype. Move past that to find those that don’t fit your sterotype.

    I agree with people trying to bridge our partisan divide. That starts with mutual respect as people even if we disagree on politics. One aspect of that is accepting that there a lot of people that voted for trump and even more that voted for clinton and especially Biden. There is no One True American. City, rural, suburban, weird sort of exurb that is hard to define: all american. Plenty of people vote D that are working class and not elite.Report

  9. Avatar Pinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Bayard’s piece was meant to be humorous. I can’t get angry at him for playing up stereotypes. It had, like, one gag, so I can’t say it was funny, but it definitely wasn’t supposed to be serious.

    Apropos of nothing, I just recently found the least funny thing in the world: watching Deadpool a second time.Report

  10. Avatar y10nerd
    Ignored
    says:

    What I appreciate about this site is two-fold:
    A) Kristine’s pure undistilled white rural cultural resentments. It makes for good brunch readings.

    B)The fact that for the vast majority of folks on this site, Democrat and liberal now just mean white college educated people they interact with online or see on TV, not, you know, working class urban folks or suburban black women or anything else.Report

    • Avatar Pinky in reply to y10nerd
      Ignored
      says:

      Bayard writes like Democrat / liberal means white Democrat / liberal, too. I assume that was part of his schtick, but then, you didn’t call *him* out for it.Report

      • Avatar y10nerd in reply to Pinky
        Ignored
        says:

        I didn’t even bother to read him. Also, in looking at his piece, it seems pretty much satire.

        But yes, I feel comfortable saying – we don’t need more articles on the culture of upper middle class white people. Except teh gays.

        We always need teh gaysReport

  11. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    Did you read and understand the linked article? Because it doesn’t show from your take here.Report

    • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Kazzy
      Ignored
      says:

      I finally saw your comment and decided to read the article that supposedly caused this latest outpouring. You’re dead right; she didn’t get it. But that doesn’t matter. Our pointing out that she didn’t get it would be just another example of smug, liberal, condescension and ignorance. As someone whose history straddles the warring cultures, I return to what I’ve said before: both sides misunderstand the other, but only one resents the other.Report

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