Harsh Your Mellow Monday: Your Premise Is Bad Edition
Another Monday, this time the first one for August 2020, or as is seems in real time, the 158th day of March.
“The problem in defense,” says Dwight D. Eisenhower “is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without.” Plenty of that going around. In the social media age, it sure seems like folks who fight the hardest against something more and more come to resemble the thing they hate the more they obsess over it. The old saying of “The best defense is a good offense” has merit to it not just as sounding clever, but in practicality. If all you are doing is bunkering in and trying to prevent, prevent, prevent, there is no growth, nothing positive, nothing happening but diminished resources, narrowing focus, and no plan for an end game other than being starved out, giving up, or passed by. Living under siege all the time is no way to live at all, folks. Don’t just live in a bunker, get out there, fighting if you have to, but at least be moving forward.
That’s enough runway; let’s get going with Harsh Your Mellow Monday
The Wrong Kind of Case
[HM1]
With The case for Trump will come down to his record. It’s a strong one in The Washington Post, Hugh Hewitt surmised his 800-word case for the president’s reelection thusly:While establishing himself as the most accessible-to-the-media president in modern times, Trump has also stripped off the veneer of objectivity from the “fake news.” “Blue Bubble” journalists are the last to know the contempt in which they are held beyond the Acela corridor and outside Silicon Valley and Hollywood. They mistake their small audience share for success. In fact, most of America would rather watch a mystery poetry slam than their “news.” Trump hammered that home, and journalists hate him for it. In turn, Blue Check Twitter confirms the contempt that “elites” feel for more than half of America.
Trump’s brawling, slugging, tempestuous approach to everything in every hour has worn down many, but his road is marked by these accomplishments. Former vice president Joe Biden’s near-50-year run in government is marked by . . . well, you fill that in. Polls say Biden is far ahead. We shall see.
There’s an aesthetic critique of Trump that has convinced elites that he must be beaten, that he is cruel and beneath the office. But Americans want their jobs and security back. They like the police. And, yes, most of the time they mostly admire Trump’s style and, almost always, his results.
Setting aside the individual merits to the points Hewitt lays out, it is his premise that is the main problem with his take. This is not a “run on your record” election. We have had many of those; Clinton in 96, W in 2004, and most recently Obama in 2012 all are recent examples of incumbents running on their records and winning another four years relatively comfortably. None of those three had the curveball of the present crisis combo of COVID and economy that has been radiating outward for five months and counting. Nor does there seem to be any abatement coming between now and November. With schools getting ready to restart with varying levels of chaos, the looming start to a new fiscal year that is going to be historically ugly, and the slow realization that the election results are very likely to be a multiple day — if not weeks or months — affair in settling, the pre-March 2020 record is going to feel like a lifetime ago to many voters.
His referencing to the “small audience share” of the granted adversarial media and doubting of the polls are mile markers on the “silent majority” road to success the president and his supporters have been referring to more and more of late. This too eats at his own premise, however. With such a, –according to Hugh– strong list of accomplishments why would the supporters of the president be the 8-12 points worth of silent by which Team Trump currently finds themselves trailing Joe Biden?
Joe Biden, mind you. The barely animated figure with 40+ years of just hanging around on the perimeter of things that were happening with a paltry accomplishment-to-time-served ratio to show for it. The Joe Biden whose campaign was nearly broke in February and came in fourth in Iowa. The Joe Biden who became the default rallying point for a huge mass of the Democratic Party as primary voters took a look at the looming possibility of a Bernie Sanders nomination and ran, not walked, to the polls in record numbers to put down the Democratic Socialists in their own party and bring an abrupt end to a primary that looked like it might go a while longer. A Joe Biden who is currently winning the presidential race by doing almost nothing at all.
Your record is not a selling point when Joe Biden is wiping the floor with it simply by breathing.
Hewitt isn’t completely wrong about aesthetics, though. The president very much benefited with his style in 2016 against Hillary Clinton. Years of loathing from the right of the Clintons in general and Hillary in particular hit the perfect inflection point with the perfect person willing to unload all that invective upon her. To the president’s base the constant combat is daily manna for the MAGA faithful to show their chosen avatar is fighting the fight. Hugh has a fair point in many folks enjoying a predictable and often condescending media getting any sort of comeuppance. It is the sort of visceral thrill that cuts faster than an ideological or policy argument. However, the aesthetics that worked during the economic boomtimes of 2016-2019 are not going to assuage all too real chaos of fall 2020. There isn’t enough anger and contempt in the world for the media to cover up for a lost job, or a chaotic school, or the threat or loss of a loved one to a disease that has killed 157K Americans and counting.
And yet, the president is far from done in this campaign. Historically, the incumbent usually finds a way to tighten up a race, and that is still Joe Biden representing Team Blue, thoroughly capable of self-destruction at any moment. The argument Hewitt and the president’s supporters ought to be making is not the president’s record, but the only argument they have that has proven to gain traction: It’s Trump or the left. The president and his surrogates have been trying to do that, but unlike the far more hated Hillary Clinton ol’ Joe is a much more palatable and normal level of politician. If you manifested the ever-popular “generic democrat” and made it flesh to walk among us at 77 years of age it would look a lot like Joe Biden.
Hewitt also makes a grave error in his closing argument. A lawyer should know better than to ever leave “Well, you fill that in” hanging because that is exactly what folks will do. In an election that for many is an up-or-down referendum on the president, far more folks than Mr. Hewitt will like may roll with “It doesn’t matter.” An electorate who makes the mental leap to “it doesn’t matter” about one candidate as long as they are not incumbent, bodes very ill for the president. The mounting chaos in the country will not help either, and Hewitt and others can point to China all they want for the source of the COVID crisis, but at five months and counting the president needs some kind of win to avoid it being forever the lead item on the list of reasons for his political downfall.
This will not be a record election. It will be a “what have you done for me lately” election. The president had best do something for someone not in his base, and quickly, if he is to remain behind the Resolute Desk come 2021.
About That Song…
[HM2]
Sing along, you know the words…
To Anacreon in Heav’n, where he sat in full glee
A few sons of Harmony seny a petition,
That he their inspirer and patron would be,
When this answer arrived from the jolly old Grecian:
Voice, fiddle and flute,
No longer be mute.
I’ll lend you my name, and inspire you to boot…
And, besides, I’ll intruct you, like me, to entwine
The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus’ vine.
Oh, you don’t know that one…well, you know the tune to it. Maybe you know the remix…
O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare,
the bombs bursting in air
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave
Yes, we Americans took Francis Scott Key’s poem and frankensteined it to a drinking song about Greek gods of wine to make an national anthem. Ain’t it grand? Thankfully we don’t start a ballgame singing the wonders of the myrtle of Venus and it being entwined — as in the Biblical sense — with Bacchus’…you know what, let’s just move on.
Anywho, once your friend and mine Frank Scotty Key jotted down his poem, the drinking ditty seemed to fit just right and off we went with it. Key was obviously familiar with the song; he had written a different poem in 1806 set to the tune, so that his new work was a harmonious match could not have been accidental. By the time The Star-Spangled Banner was officially signed into law as the national anthem in 1931 by Herbert Hoover, folks had basically made it the anthem already.
The playing of the anthem for sporting events came mostly from baseball during and right after WW2, then migrated to other sports. The meaning and attention to the anthem at sporting events has ebbed and flowed over the years; events like 9/11 bring it to the fore. The NBA started regular anthems in 1981, and the NFL — while having played the anthem before games for decades — did not officially have players on the field for the now-common ceremonies until 2009. The Colin Kaepernick protests and kneeling of four years ago brought the debate to the forefront over standing/kneeling/whatever during the anthem again. Which brings us up to today, and with the NBA restarting their “bubble season” the league that is easily the most progressive and outspoken on political issues has social issues like Black Lives Matters plastered everywhere. On the court, on the jerseys, and in planned kneeling:
Which brings us to Byron York’s Twitter feed:
Colin Kaepernick won. When he started, just one athlete refused to stand for national anthem. Now, just one athlete refuses to kneel during anthem. In course of weeks, a complete collapse of hallowed American ritual. pic.twitter.com/lXrFQvNU5C
— Byron York (@ByronYork) August 2, 2020
“…A complete collapse of hallowed American ritual”….that’s interesting verbiage for a made-for-TV moment of protest and messaging.
Just to get the particulars out of the way, the NBA is encouraging players to express themselves, unlike previous years where the league forced Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf to stand for the anthem when he wanted to protest and make a political statement about the country. That was 25 years ago, and in the pre-internet era it took weeks for anyone to even notice it. So this isn’t a rule breaking issue at least as far as the NBA goes. But the way York phrases it, and many others, hints that a horrible thing has none the less occurred. To be clear, the folks kneeling have the right to do so, as do the individuals who do not kneel have every right to make their decision. The silliness of saying a protest that is for increased rights means no one has a right to not participate is as ridiculous as the shallow folks who demand there be no dissent whatsoever during a song about the land of the free.
But to the matter at hand: If the ritual of standing for the national anthem at a sporting event is “hallowed”, who consecrated it to be so?
If pre-tip, pre-kickoff, pre-whatever festivities are “hallowed ritual” then the proposition is that somehow sports are now integrated and mandatory ordinances of…what exactly? Perhaps York is arguing that the nebulous and elusive American Civic Religion that holds patriotism as the one, true, holy, apostolic unifying force that all Americans are just hardwired to lovingly take into their hearts. It must be nearly religious, since the slightest blasphemy against the trinity of flag, song, and country is met not with gentle rebukes or questions of motive but with insinuations that you hate America, spit on veterans, and probably kill random puppies in the name of Karl Marx. See, the hardwiring of TRUE Americans would be upset at such things as not respecting the anthem, don’t you see? The causes don’t matter if the rituals are not properly kept and observed.
Spare me. A unifying sense of country and duty is a fine thing — and a level of respect for both is necessary in a functioning society — but they make for shallow and meaningless religion. The rowdys in section 230 of the arena have been laughing and giggling through the anthem for decades before they got all incensed at a player not properly performing the ritual as they see fit. The star-spangled displays of the NFL are great imagery that was done as much for marketing as anything else. Folks who want to boycott and protest Kaepernick, Nike, and anything else that is insufficiently patriotic are oddly nowhere to be found in protesting, demanding change, or even bringing attention to the actual Veterans Affairs system that literally kills vets through incompetency, bureaucracy, and sometimes even darker things, like outright murder, that go unchecked.
If you really want to show yourself as a true believe who is fully down with truth, justice, and the American way, you don’t need a full blown ritual, or an inquisition to purge heretics from the civic religion of patriotism, or even a social media presence to rant about it all.
All you have to do is maintain your bearing and not have a patriotism so shallow that it is shaken to the core by someone not ritualizing as you see fit.
Me, personally, to the day I die I will stand for the national anthem, as close to being at attention as I can physically manage in my current state, hand over heart. It’s not particularly comfortable to do so. But loving something like freedom isn’t about being comfortable. Which is the point of those using the rituals of our country to bring attention in the first place. It’s ok to disagree, to make the comfortable uncomfortable, to challenge things. That’s how a free society works. That discomfort is the workings and machinations of the grinding tensions of perfecting an imperfect union.
Uniformity to a civic religion might make folks more comfortable, but it wouldn’t be utopia; it would be atrophy, and mean the dying of all the good things and freedoms possible if we just keep fighting for them. Or, if you can’t manage that, tolerating and allowing those who do.
Twisting, Turning, Through the Never
[HM3]
With the election looming the never ending argument over what is, what isn’t, and who constitutes #nevertrump is living it’s best life now.
And if it remains unclear whether the Lincoln Project—and a similar group, Republican Voters Against Trump—will actually be able to sway voters, as opposed to just racking up views online, the surge of interest in Never Trump groups is certainly being mirrored in Trump’s sagging polls. The president is facing a loss of support among key constituencies who voted for him in 2016, including white suburban women. If he fails to win back those voters, his reelection is in serious danger. His campaign seems to have realized this—hence his efforts to woo white suburb-dwellers by portraying America’s cities as bombed-out hellscapes, and by calling on the “Suburban Housewives of America” to turn against Joe Biden.
The Never Trumpers’ swift rise from the ashes of history does not have a single cause. There is, as an initial matter, the political savvy of some of the people in question. The Lincoln Project’s searing ads have developed a cult following—though they’ve also drawn criticism on both aesthetic and moral grounds. A series of videos made by Republican Voters Against Trump, which target a different demographic, have been no less engrossing. Made by voters themselves, these videos feature people describing the personal political considerations that lead them to identify as Republicans and yet reject the president. The output of both groups has been gripping and it has been quite different from material released by left-leaning, liberal, or Democratic entities. On a more intellectual level, a new magazine, The Bulwark, which was set up while the movement was still attracting life-support metaphors, has created an institutional home for Never Trump writing. In the drive for mind-share, the Never Trumpers have been tenacious and effective—aided in no small measure by their being the intellectual elite of the conservative movement.
Part of the problem with parsing out the broadly used but not very defined term of “Never Trump” is that there are two distinct types of Never Trump: the principle, and the business model.
The principle of Never Trump is self-explanatory: folks who will not, under any circumstances, support Donald Trump in anything for any reason.
The business model of Never Trump is also pretty simple: lots of folks oppose the president; if you want to stand out in the media environment, having the nomenclature of “Republican/Conservative against Trump” helps you stand out and get noticed.
How this all plays out will be telling. With the loudly prominent Lincoln Project promising to go scorched Earth not just on President Trump but also anyone and everyone who doesn’t share their contempt for him, questions are going to fairly be asked what comes after Trump. Their strategy is heavy on the online trolling and running ads in Washington DC for the express and open purpose of annoying Donald J. Trump as much as possible.
The Republican Voters Against Trump group took a different tact, using testimonials as the core of ads running in swing states. The volume and vitriol might be a notch or two lower than the Lincoln Project, but the goal is roughly the same.
“There became this myth about Trump that his base is so strong and locked in and they loved him,” (Sarah Longwell) says. “I knew that wasn’t true and it wasn’t true for a long time, and that there were a lot of people out there that could be persuaded if the Democrat wasn’t objectionable to them. I knew that Bernie Sanders was never going to fly with these people, but Joe Biden had always surfaced as somebody in our research that if it was him, there was a bunch of people who could be persuaded to vote for him.”
The thesis is, according to Longwell and others, the folks who held their nose and voted for Trump against Hillary Clinton will be comfortable voting for Biden. That could be, though there are variables there that are unproven in an election yet. Biden will be running well to the left of Hillary, or any Democratic nominee of our lifetime. The chaos of COVID and the fallout thereof makes for what will be the most unpredictable environment going into an election year in modern times. And it’s still Joe Biden on the ticket, fully capable of single-handedly blowing up his third run at the presidency the way he did his first two.
The professional wing of Never Trump is betting none of that will matter against an increasingly unpopular and divisive president. The odds are probably on their side for being right.
But, then what?
One of my questions with the dedicated Never Trump folks is what’s the plan for after that? By definition you are building your existence around a temporary thing in the Trump presidency, whether it is four or eight years. What’s the endgame? If you are actually Republicans fighting the good fight against the interloping Trump, is it to “return to normal?” Now, the co-founder of the Lincoln Project is promising to also push policy that would be unfavorable if not verboten in the GOP. If the Lincoln Project is utterly indistinguishable from the run of the mill Democratic 501c3s and PACs except for their founder’s former Republican credentials, it would seem unlikely they will be part of whatever the post-Trump Republican party morphs into.
Which if the proffered version of Never Trump is just a media platform, marketing, and business strategy wouldn’t matter? Controversy is good for business in political branding. If your design on Never Trump is the Republican party coming to you asking for forgiveness and declaring you were right all along, and please show them the way to a new, brighter future, you are delusional.
Most of the Never Trump arguments are very online and very inside-basebally among folks who spend way too much time on politics. Most voters aren’t very ideological at all; they vote for who they like at any particular moment. Voting for the opposing party is not as big a deal as some folks think. Voting for president is an exercise of who you want on your TV for four years more than any policy proposal. But if you like inside-basebally politics, it will be fascinating to watch folks who took the bare knuckle tactics of Trump as the best course of action against him find their place in a world post-Trump, and a party that may or may not welcome them back.
Till then, it’s summertime, and the living is easy for Never Trump.
Takes guts to run an editorial advocating the reelection of Trump after seeing what the woke-offs at the NYT did when Bennet ran Tom Cotton’s editorial.Report
No it didn’t. Hewitt is part of the Post’s regular stable, this column is consistent with his regular output, and nobody who had any editorial or supervisory role has copped to a firing offense like not reading it before OKing publication.Report
Something I didn’t know until recently:
The Robber’s Cave experiment was actually *TWO* experiments.
The first one had this happen:
The counsellors refined their methods for the second experiment. The second one is the one that everybody knows about.Report
What both the Trumpists and NeverTrumpists have in common is they lack any political theory of governance. They don’t have a motivating theory that ordinary citizens can grab hold of and support.
Like I mentioned the other day, the old animating politics of the Cold War are gone. The Democrats are slowly developing a theory based on quasi-New Deal economic ideas, and are centered on equality and justice issues. They aren’t there yet, but they have the core of an idea.
The Trumpists have become entirely motivated by racial hatred and cultural revanchism. But the Never Trumpers seem to have just assumed that stripped of his corruption, treason and incompetence, the Trump Administration would be just dandy.Report
Gotta say, “Remember 1948? We should do that!” is a better gameplan than “Remember 1968?”Report
Labour did control the UK government from 1974-1979 before entering a 17-year exile but during this time, they were more of a party not knowing what to do. At one point Harold Wilson basically said he only had the same old solutions to the same old problems in private conversations. He did not know how to handle the problems Britain faced in the 1970s or growing desires of the British population which went against the Clause IV socialism of a good chunk of Labour supporters.
I think a lot of NeverTrumpers are like this. They were products of the Reagan revolution and learned about politics when Reagan and Thatcherism were hot commodities and the spirit of the New Deal seemed bloated and complacent but it hardwired their brains for always thinking that government is a problem and that deregulation is always the answer. There are a few people who manage to escape the narrow view like Jennifer Rubin but more are probably like Kristol who miss a part at the head table.
I’m probably pretty ideological compared to most people but the big problem with ideology is that it seems to create a situation where the only tool for someone is a hammer.Report
Just an announcement since it’s mentioned here, We have a feature piece on UK government, and parliament vs executive in particular, that will be up in just a few minutesReport
One of the criticisms I heard about the Democrats in 1979 was that they always campaigned like it was 1936 or something where the problem was economic depression and the answer was always more stimulus spending and government regulation.
What I notice about the Republicans now is they always campaign like it is 1976 and the problem is economic stagflation and government overregulation.
In both cases the underlying charge is that the ideology is exhausted, offered as a rote catechism without an underlying grasp of the problems we face, and an original idea of how to fix them.
I don’t see any evidence the hot young stars of the GOP like Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro or anyone at The Federalist have done any original thinking besides memorizing the Reagan talking points from 1980. They sound like those young evangelical child preachers who are always the darlings of the older set, because they faithfully parrot back to the parents the things the parents long to hear.
In this case the parents are the deep pocketed financiers of the right wing like the Mercers and Rick Uihlein, who I see this morning is being reported as the money behind the Federalist.Report
Your last paragraph there is harsh, but I think very fair and accurate.Report
I mean part of the Senate’s latest corona-virus package is…allowing 100% deductions on business meals?
Starting with “unrelated” and moving straight into “literally the opposite of helping combat a virus that spreads happily through travel and in-person dining”.
A payroll tax cut was also suggested — definitely the thing to help in 10%+ unemployment, a minimal tax cut that only applies to those who have a job.
Then there was my favorite, a GOP Senator actually suggested just giving people 6000 dollars as long as they used it for a vacation. I thought it was a joke, but nope. She wanted to give them money to travel and ‘take time off’. During a pandemic.
What’s the joke that’s been floating around? The GOP response to an illness is “Take two tax cuts and call me in the morning”?
Who knew that was actually true….Report
We would be a vastly better place if the Republicans were a purely venal party that would do anything to get a vote. We aren’t in that place. The Republican Party and many of its’ voters believe that we can use our freedom-loving American spirit to override Covid-19. There is a meme they share of American soldiers invading Normandy on D-Day and a man in a mask hiding behind a coach. Like we can just power through this virus.
Republicans also believe that if you cut off all the aid and force people back to work than the economy would mystically and magically rebound securing their re-election chances. They do not believe spending any government money on the people helps.Report
Cite on the Federalist funding?
Younger conservatives like Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk perplex me because I wonder where they learnt it from and in ways that are so out of step with their generation overall. Politics now seems to have a geographic component where people with grow up in GOP strongholds maintain the reactionary line.
My alma mater has been parodied for left politics on the Simpsons (“Non-conform with me!!!) but even back in the 1980s had lots of Reagan and Bush I voters if you look at the year books) Now being GOP at it would be weird.Report
The New York Times has reported on Dick Uihlein being a funder:
Of course, you should read the story for yourself and come to your own conclusions.Report
I think the New Theory of Republican politics is that government still doesn’t work accept as a way to enforce reactionary White Protestant morality.Report
What’s truly ironic is that a lot of Democratic elected officials like Gov. Jerry Brown here in CA, and Barack Obama actually governed according small-c conservative principles.
They were fiscally prudent, cautious about executive power, respected established norms and traditions and behaved as responsible stewards of power.
Even the newer crop of Democrats like AOC are only radical by today’s standards; Most of what AOC says wouldn’t have been out of place in a Roosevelt or Truman administration.
The current Republican ethos is something radical a pre-New Deal, pre-civil rights sort of mashup of Wm. Randolph Hearst jingoism, Jim Crow, and Gilded Age economics. These are things that no one, not Shapiro or Kirk or Tucker Carlson ever experienced, but only fantasize about like eager ISIS recruits.Report
How many times did Obama explain that he wasn’t a king before he went ahead and did the thing that he said he didn’t have the power to do because he wasn’t a king?
And AOC is only non-radical by Khmer Rouge standards.Report
It turns out that #neverTrump Republicans are at their strongest when they decide to support the real viable alternative to Trump, the Democratic candidate for the Presidency. Funny that.Report
Maybe Biden can get all of the #neverTrumpers on board by taking a VP like Jared Polis or Joe Manchin.Report
He doesn’t have to, they’re already on board. Biden knows that the Dems/Left don’t owe #neverTrumpers a damn thing and they aren’t offering anything.Report
Trump does not have many abilities but he does have one.* This is that he some how convinces most of his supporters and/or detractors that he is wildly popular. It is a Sisyphean task to convince anyone that Trump is massively unpopular, he has never had an approval rating north of 50 percent. For most of his Presidency, his approval rating has been closer to 40 percent than 50 percent.
Yet there are lots of smart people who seem to think that Trump is going to rocket past a 60 percent approval rating any day now and win a reelection through something like Lyndon Johnson in 1964 or Reagan in 1984. This is absolutely nuts. If Trump wins reelection in 2020, it will be another lightening strike where he loses the popular vote but manages to hold on to the electoral college.
*There is still the issue of whether this is unique to Trump or he is just the beneficiary of increasing negative partisanship.Report
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07/25/nation/bipartisan-group-secretly-gathered-game-out-contested-trump-biden-election-it-wasnt-pretty/Report
So the Democrats played a game where they said that “We don’t accept the results of the election” was seen as a good move?
Well, so long as they’re saying “we don’t accept the results of the election” for a good reason and not a bad one.Report
Well, Saul linked to the article. People who care what’s so can read for themselves.Report
Here’s the part of the article that I read for myself:
Report
As I said, the article is there and it speaks for itself. On past form, anyone who cares what it says is well advised to read it and develop his or her own take.Report
Brother, you have got an entire comments section to explain what’s wrong with his statement, and you can post here all day long.
Or you could do the thing you usually do, where you’re so scared of getting dry-gulched that you do nothing but mumble platitudes.Report
Forget it Duck, its Trollucci town.
The bot is a shyster through and through.Report
It’s better to talk about arguments than to talk about people personally, I find.
Talking about the arguments might actually unearth something interesting.
Talking about the other people directly strikes me as not only Mean Girls-level bullshit but *OBVIOUS* Mean Girls-level bullshit and a huge amount of people who have directly experienced Mean Girls-level bullshit will immediately respond viscerally to it (consciously or unconsciously).Report
Normally I would agree with you, and it is generally how I go about commenting and reading comments here.
Normally.Report
Do you support the idea of people commenting on what they read or, in your view, should they just keep it to themselves?Report
What I support is that, when someone has proved to be an unreliable reporter of what he says he has read or said or written, people are well advised to read for themselves and make up their own minds. You’re not against people doing their own reading and making up their own minds, are you?Report
I’ve done the “hey, you should read this!” thing.
It doesn’t work as well as you’d think it would.Report
Thank you for yet another example.Report
If someone is repeatedly irritating, wrong, and argues in bad faith, after a while people will begin to see such a person as an annoying troll who wants to suck up the oxygen in the room. It’s less about argument and more about attention seeking behavior.Report
Would you expect such people to have blind spots?Report
I didn’t see much reason to look beyond the URL. “…bipartisan group secretly [verb]…” A bipartisan group can’t secretly [verb], so whatever it is, it didn’t happen. Further, if there’s a story about it in the press, then “secretly” is obvious false.Report
Some people delight in clear communication. Others delight in preventing it.
Why waste your time with the latter? What could they possibly offer? Even if they have something to say, their natural inclination means they’ll make sure no one understands it.
And yet they often talk so very much….
An irony, I suppose. So many words to convey nothing. Silence would have been more efficient in getting the point across.Report
There is a ton of discourse on “feeding the trolls.” The problem is, while any one person might ignore the troll, almost always someone will take the bait, and then the conversation degrades. As I said, it “sucks the oxygen from the room.” Moreover, when you can see what they are doing, the tactics they use, it’s really tempting to point out those tactics. Certainly I think discussing the tactics used by bad faith actors is useful. Pointing them out in specific cases seems similarly useful.
Anyway, file under “we can’t have nice things.”Report
It’s like how when someone posts an essay about action figure prices a commentor rolls in and starts yelling about how capitalism is an evil fiction, and when the OP asks why that’s relevant, they reply “I just don’t understand you.”Report
I see you’ve caught Jaybird’s reading comprehension problem. But anyone who cares can read for themselves.Report
They can read it for themselves here, for the record.Report
A fine idea.Report
Or, perhaps, when someone writes an essay about how they’ve worked with employees to communicate the need for proper PPE use and a culture focused on safety-promoting behaviors, and a commentor comes in saying “that all sounds like baby-talk! And anyway, what about conspiracy theories?”Report
Personally, I’m impressed that the Dems gamed this out. I criticize them early and often for appearing to be caught with their pants down, so from my pov, this is good news.Report
A good point. This is vastly superior to the “nobody worth listening to is arguing that Trump is going to get more then 240 EVs” thing that 2016 had going on.
That said, the narrative that we can trust the system and the narrative that we can’t trust the system require two very different types of seeds to be sown and the “we can’t trust the system” seeds are much, much stronger.
You don’t want to have sown those if you end up winning.Report
I figure that if there’s any doubts about the outcome, the Russians will sort it all out for us.Report
They played games where both sides said that. Read into that what you will, but I, for one, am not looking forward to America becoming a banana republic.Report
I always thought the point of the Lincoln Project was to needle President Orange. Though it does look like some ads could convince people to vote for Biden in November. I have no problem with this.Report
In the opposite of harshing my mellow, I guess, yesterday the Nevada legislature passed a bill, which the Democratic governor is expected to sign, that will make them the seventh western state (of 13) to send essentially all registered voters a ballot by mail this November. Voters who register after the mail deadline will have to vote in person. Eighth state if you include Arizona at 80% of registered voters. Ninth if you include Montana at 70%. Tenth if you include New Mexico at 60%. Nevada’s change only applies during a declared emergency. If vote-by-mail is as popular in Nevada as it is in other western states, the emergency requirement will be dropped.Report
I think the big advantage of vote-by-mail is that it will let husbands vote for the whole family, which is how elections should work anyway.Report
Hey, no fair stealing my joke and using it unironically.
[But its true, that’s 5 votes for the American Solidarity party and there’s nothing y’all can do about it]Report
You joke, but the number of times my wife has threatened to vote my ballot for me so I don’t throw my vote away on some goofy ass libertarian candidate instead of the sensible democrat…Report
Wise woman.Report
You’re right it’s better when we have 10 hour poll lines and disenfranchise people because they happen to live in the poor neighborhoods.
but are you saying that’s why Trump votes by mail so he can vote for him Melania and all of his idiot children?Report
I think that’s a pretty sober reflection on the NeverTrump business model.
On the one hand, of course the Republican party will simply return to the hands of Rick Wilson, Steve Schmidt and George T. Conway III… but isn’t the simple explanation that RW, SS and GTC3 are wishcasting? There’s no political future for a party based on the ‘ideas’ of RW, SS and GTC3… but those three need the status quo ante to continue to be relevant.
What I find fascinating about NeverTrump.. which you correctly point out… is the assumption that the Party of W/McCain/Romney is going to reconstitute itself like some modern day Humpty Dumpty. There’s a chance that the ‘Republican Party’ does revert to type… but I don’t think that party wins an election until RW, SS, and GTC3 are set-aside.
There was an interesting article yesterday in The American Conservative written by a National Review editor(!!) arguing that Fusionism is still alive… and not only that, but that Liberarians aren’t merely part of the coalition – but essential(!). [pace OT Libertarians, I come in jest]
I’ll willingly plead ignorance to the future of the Republican party… but I’ll certainly be against any future that is the fusionism of National Review plus RW, SS and GWT3.Report
I meant to write “bet against any future” … but I’ll likely ‘be’ against it too, so maybe a distinction without a difference.Report
This reminds me of the essay that Scotto wrote about how the Electoral College could still be used to install a president other than Trump. You get California and New York to vote for Rick Perry and Texas follows suit.
Easy peasy.
But the problem with multiple defections in such a short amount of time is that while the incentives are there to collaborate if the other guy collaborates, there’s no reason to believe that the other guy won’t pull the football away. Freaking again.Report
I think I’d put that more in response to HM1 rather than HM3… right now Biden is running a sort of “Silent National Unity” campaign. Lots of folks can project a certain sort of presidency that may or may not emerge.
My unpopular take is that *if* Biden loses the election, it won’t be because he, let’s say, refers to his VP pick as the ‘smartest dame he knows…’ but rather because he says the quiet part out loud of some extreme leftist views… not that he believes them (sorta like Trump aping pro-life rhetoric wrongly) but to signal that he’s on that team. It’ll shatter the illusion of National Unity. That’s the Biden gaffe in the making.
Right now I’d put it this way… there’s a lot of uncertainty that Biden has the minimal strength to reach is ceiling of barely adequate. Don’t shatter that fragile illusion.Report
5 bucks if you can actually name any sort of Joe Biden’s position that’s actually leftistReport
That’s the point. None of us should know any of Biden’s plans. Then we can all hope he’s just like us.Report
The Republican party will not reconstitute itself in the mold of either of the tripartite groups you mention, as that is the paradigm of a Republican party for a liberalism transcendent period. We are no longer in that period and haven’t been since Obama’s first term. Any attempt to recreate the past is always doomed to failure.Report
Right… which begs the question whether NeverTrump see’s itself as Quixotic, Cynical or Sacrificial. Personally, I lean towards cynical where they are burnishing their reputations for future non-Republican-endeavors post-Trump. But I can’t claim any deep reflection on it more than a hunch.Report
I would say Quixotic with a tinge of the Mercenary.
But that might be a rephrasing of what you are saying…Report
You’re giving them a bit more credit than I… but yeah.Report
My guess is a combination of expressed guilt at destroying the Party and a desire to remain relevant. That led over time to them actually finding their footing as relevant (they do much better attack ads on the GOP and Trump than Dems could ever hope to produce) and subsequently leveraging that for cash (not necessarily the grift yet!) since their one true and lasting commitment is to destroy Trump and Trumpism for ripping the lid off the cynicism upon which they’d built their careers and reputations.
Whatever hope they have of becoming leaders of a future Republican party hinges on how well they play the role of antagonist to (what they view as) ignorant conservative populism.Report
Ouch, Bitter Cynical it is then.
Though I wonder in passing can there even be any hope of electoral success without the
Bitter Clingers, er,Ignorant Conservative Populists, er, base?Unless you’re suggesting the true future winners of realignment: the Neo-Liberal Left/Center governing coalition? Establishments without the ugly commitments owed to either base?Report
This assumes the populist voting base of the left is disaffected from the leadership/elite center leftists which, I think, assumes facts not in evidence. There is/was a rift that existed between the GOP’s leadership elite and their voters that didn’t/doesn’t exist (or at least not remotely in the same degree) on the Democratic side.
If the Democratic elite were dominated by market/neo liberals (they aren’t) or social justice activists (they even more so aren’t) then maybe they’d have the same problem; but they aren’t, so they don’t.
If I had to bet on a realignment (and I am really bad a predicting politics), I’d think the right has to ditch either their economic populists or their libertarians with the ditched constituency ending up gravitating to the left.
But with the never Trumpers specifically we should keep in mind that they represent a bunch of career political operatives and media voices. I don’t know that there’s any evidence to suggest they represent a voting constituency that is much larger than the number of votes they individually can cast.
As to where they go? I think it depends on this election. If the GOP is utterly routed then maybe the never Trumpers will try and rebuild the George W Bush GOP in its ashes (which I doubt they’d succeed at). If the GOP merely loses or narrowly loses the never Trumpers are just gonna be a fading voice loosely attached to but exercising very little pull on the Democratic party until they fade away to nothing.Report
The Democratic elite isn’t dominated by market/neo liberals? Hmn… I suppose we’ll have to parse ‘elite’ and ‘dominated’ and ‘market’ and ‘neo liberal’ to squeeze that into the box we’d like to squeeze it into… but I’m sure there’s a way to parse it just so.
But at any rate… no worries then; everyone in the coalition is happy with the direction and leadership. Especially once Trump is gone.Report
I grant that neoliberal is a rather ambiguous term meaning different things to different people; but however one parses it the Democratic elite doesn’t universally fit the bill. They’re market friendly- not anti-capitalist; but they aren’t libertarians by any stretch of the imagination nor are they even in spitting distance of the same. That happens to describe a very large majority of the Democratic voting base. One certainly could say I’m wrong and that there’re big gaps that make the Dems dysfunctional in a way similar to the dysfunction of the GOP but I would expect them to be able to name specific examples.
The left is pretty damn massive and unwieldy right now, spanning a huge spectrum of political real estate from the Never Trumpers on the right up to the Berniacs on the left who’re just barely willing to get with the program which leads to an odd situation where damn near no one is exactly delighted with the party and yet no one can honestly say it’s terrible enough to want to go somewhere else. And I’d readily grant there’s gonna be some knife fights once the particular unifying factor of Trump is out of the picture but, again, that’s just politics as normal; not the remarkable moment of crisis I see in the Republican camp.Report
The NeverTrumpers want the Ignorant populists to go back to believing *their” lies, not Trump’s lies.Report
Well of course that. But if your path to power relies on the people behind the curtain jumping in front of the curtain to tell the ignorant populists that they are doing it wrong? That’s not the start of something, it’s the end of it.Report
It’s the end of it if you think the IC populists will control the party going forward. IF they don’t, ICP antagonists will be well positioned to get feet into doors and hands into pockets.Report
HM2: Shallow patriotism, like shallow religion.
If your patriotism is so offended by a person kneeling for a drinking song, I bet your faith is seriously threatened by two strangers of the same sex getting married.Report
“If your patriotism is so offended by a person kneeling for a drinking song”
If it’s just a drinking song then why do you think it matters that anyone knelt for it?Report
Didn’t say that I did. My patriotism isn’t shallow. I give a shite what anyone does during the playing of the national anthem, as long as they do it quietly.Report
The song, like the flag, are symbols of the nation. They are no more or less immune to peaceful protest that any other symbol. And remember, prior to the 1970’s none of these professional sports teams came out before the anthem. So it’s not that hallowed a tradition. Also remember that Kapernick took his knee on the advice of a white Army vet who said he (the vet) felt kneeling was a respectful way to protest. The fact that the National Anthem was built of the frame of drinking song is mildly humerous.Report
“The song, like the flag, are symbols of the nation. They are no more or less immune to peaceful protest that any other symbol.”
Well, sure! And the rest can be upset at the arrogation of those national symbols for someone’s personal drama! That’s how a conversation works, it’s not a series of flat statements that everyone else who’s Good nods along with and “amen”s at the end.
“it’s not that hallowed a tradition”
Philosophically, I don’t think “respecting the symbols of national unity isn’t and shouldn’t be a tradition at public events” is as killer an argument as you seem to imagine.
And practically, 1970 was fifty years ago, you tool, two generations of America have grown to adulthood with this being a thing, it isn’t exactly some Johnny-come-lately idea.Report
Ah where to begin . . .
I was born in 1971, and I don’t think this appropriate. So it is possible to be in those generations (and actually its now three that are adults in that time span) and also come to believe the tradition of teams on the field all standing hand over heart needs to go. Its forced patriotism, paid for by DoD as part of rehabilitating their post-Vietnam image.
The big, aircraft carrier sized piece of this you are avoiding is those are not actual symbols of national unity for many people. Kapernick knelt (which was so badly ballyhooed back in the day but sure seems better then current alternatives IMHO) precisely because he and other black athletes decided to use their very public platform to call attention to an injustice that still effects millions of our fellow citizens. Just today there was a story in NPR about black State Department diplomats being harassed by CBP and its predecessor agencies, and black family was forced to sit handcuffed on hot pavement over the weekend at gunpoint because the Aurora Colorado police couldn’t figure out the SUV they were in was one the police had recovered and returned to this same family back in February.
He isn’t arrogating these alleged symbols of national unity for his own ends, he’s engaged in peaceful protest which is protected speech under the First Amendment. Way more peaceful in some people’s eyes then blocking Interstates and marching in city streets. And again, he chose to kneel after talking to veterans about what he might do.
Finally – calling people names – even here – is the mark of an intellectually lazy person who is EXTREMELY insecure in their position. Its what the Tweeter In Chief does. Be better then that would ya?Report
“The big, aircraft carrier sized piece of this you are avoiding is those are not actual symbols of national unity for many people. ”
two comments back, from me: “If it’s just a drinking song then why do you think it matters that anyone knelt for it?”
You can’t have it be both a silly useless pointless waste of space and time that was sleazed into existence by cynical manipulators and shouldn’t be respected and have protesting it carry a deep meaning that we should all think about. If protesting it matters, then it’s because the symbol matters, and protesting it is going to get pushback from people who think using it to push your own personal hobbyhorse is immoral.
“He isn’t arrogating these alleged symbols of national unity for his own ends”
He is absolutely doing that. You might think those ends are important but you ain’t everybody He might think his point is worthy but the speaker does not control how the audience interprets their speech, as dudes like you just love to point out when, e.g., a white guy describes a black politician as “clean and well-spoken”.
“[Kaepernick] and other black athletes decided to use their very public platform to call attention to an injustice that still effects millions of our fellow citizens.”
*affects
“Its what the Tweeter In Chief does.”
*It’sReport
You seem to be intentionally missing the point. so I’ll break it down for you into smaller chunks.
1. The National Anthem and the flag are symbols of our nation. No more no less.
2. Those symbols are open to being used in protest of the things our government at all levels does. They are not sacred texts nor are they imbued with supernatural powers.
3. Having professional athletes present and saluting the flag during the anthem is a modern invention that was funded by the government to change how people viewed said government. It is this “tradition” that I believe is a “silly waste of space,” not the playing of the anthem itself.
4. Kneeling in protest to injustice done under that flag is not a disrespect of the flag or the anthem. Its a disrespect of the injustices committed by agents of government under color of the flag and anthem. choosing to conflate the two – especially when the kneeler has been very public and consistent as to why he’s doing what he’s doing is to try and delegitimize his argument because you don’t want to engage with it.
5. Since the Right has objected strenuously to the form of the protests following Mr. Floyd’s murder in Minneapolis by government agents acting under that flag and that anthem, the Right now appears hugely hypocritical for saying that Mr. Kapernick’s kneeling was some sort of horror show.
6. That the National Anthem was built on the bones of a drinking song further reinforces the point that Mr. Kapernick’s kneeling in protest was a very civilized approach to the issue, in as much as he’s showing respect for the musical descendant of a drinking song.
7. Since his kneeling – and the kneeling of others remains – so patently offensive to you, how would you suggest he protest? As I recall you don’t like blocking interstates or shouting chants at courthouses or pretty much any other form tried so far by impacted people and communities to call attention to this issue.Report
“You seem to be intentionally missing the point.”
Oh no no no, I’m not missing it, I’m refusing to accept it as valid. I know how old-guy brains get calcified but do try to keep up.
And it’s interesting how you insist that I’m Intentionally Missing The Point when your only response to my argument has been to restate your own.Report
Well if you aren’t going to accept it as valid then why bother trying to refute me? seems a waste of your apparently too valuable time.Report
“Shallow patriotism”? Says who? Maybe a shallow dimension of patriotism, just like not calling the missus a “c” is a shallow dimension of marital love, but it says something about the kind of person who would break that norm. Our patriotism shouldn’t be simply shallow, but small gestures aren’t meaningless.Report
“my country right or wrong” is where so many good people go wrong and just never managed to get turned around when you go down there.
I mean if you’re anything but a native American you’re living on stolen land in America and you got to remember that we basically killed 95% of the existing pre landing population in the name of religious freedom and manifest destinyReport
If your patriotism is such that a single black man kneeling during the national anthem – or the whole NBA which is predominantly black kneeling – causes you to boycott sports, burn your expensive shoes and hurl epithets online and on video at the kneelers, you possess shallow patriotism. You don’t want your country to be better – that takes critical thinking and both self and national examination. You want symbols to be immutable, no one to protest or speak up and everything to remain static.Report
“Look at this person destroying their possessions and angrily denouncing people in response to an insult! They very clearly don’t take this thing seriously.”Report
Nice try at deflection – though its worth remembering that most of the folks arrested for setting fires and looting during the George Floyd protests have been white agitators and not African Americans who were doing the actual protesting. See the Nashville courthouse arsonist and “Autozone Man” as but two examples.Report
OT 2020, where progressive liberal posters argue that George Floyd protestors shouldn’t be taken seriously because they’re just white agitators and cosplayers.Report
you really don’t do well with nuance do you?Report
“you possess shallow patriotism” ain’t real nuanced, ace.Report
Sorry for returning late to the party. Computer issues. Both The question and Philip H write as if my patriotism is only for show. There’s no reason for that assumption. Patriotism is not confined to respect for symbols, but it is a part of it. Have I said “my country right or wrong”, or that I don’t want my country to be better? Nope.Report
The great Mike Royko wrote a column 35 years ago anticipating this.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1986-09-10-8603070573-story.htmlReport
Wish we had Royco and Lincicome both these days.Report
Kaepernick kneeling has been an enormously successful grift.Report
NO more or less so then the Pentagon paying the NFL and NBA and MLB to do the whole teams on the field for national anthem stunt to try and rehabilitate its image post-Vietnam.Report
I could easily imagine Never Trump Republicans as The Downton Abbey elite. They seem convinced that only someone of proper breeding and manners can be in charge, someone they’d invite over for tea or go fox hunting with. The idea that some ruffian is President, well, it strikes them as something far worse than having some butler or footman ascend the throne, because at least the servants are part of the proper hierarchy. To them, Trump is a direct threat to their status, privilege, estates, and carefully refined culture with its complex rules of etiquette. He’s the worst thing to happen to their kind since the Vikings attacked Lindisfarne or Oliver Cromwell started collecting heads.
The trouble is, nobody has need of any Downton Abbey elites. They never do anything other than cluck their tongues over cocktails, and they never take a stand on anything, unless of course it gives them an opportunity to posture, preen, and deliver a condescending lecture to prove how well bred and well educated they are.Report
He certainly has managed to savage their pocketbooks and investment portfolios.Report
If Trump would go full on 100% tweeting out annoying things to the Twitterverse and causing every liberal to suffer TDS, I’d vote for him..just to piss off the sanctimonious lefties off. His admin might then get something done while he was tweeting. Sadly, that level of effort for me is too much It’s just not worth the effort anymore. 🙂Report
His administration has gotten a bunch of stuff done – overpaying for ventilators that won’t be here for a year, rolling back environmental regulations; taking money from military construction to build a border wall, and allowing Mitch McConnell to confirm 200 or so federal judges.
Of course, with the tanking of the economy none of that matters much.Report
[HM2] I’ve always been an agnostic American… just passing through, really. So can’t say I’ve had strong opinions on the song.
However, historically, my interest is piqued on its move to Sports. My recollection is that the Anthem was played for kids’ sports during Tournament Championships (Hockey)… including Canada if the tournament was cross-border. It was echoing the “big leagues”. And, I recall the Anthem being played before pro games, but just for us fans… the players were still in the locker rooms- for Hockey and Baseball (??). Players only took the field for the Anthem during play-offs and/or tournament scenarios. I’m not sure I see much of a reason to even play the Anthem at sporting events outside of times of war and/or national tragedy. Or, maybe, during special occasions like Championships as a momentary symbol of unity?
In some ways, making the Anthem mundane made it less symbolic… and therefore easier to ‘protest’ since it wasn’t really a symbol of a unique thing, but rather a recitation of a common thing.
Am I misremembering?Report
From the greatest sports movie ever:
When I was a kid, the arcade had an industrial strength slide rod hockey game where red players would play against blue players (warning: PDF). The game started with the last two seconds of either the American or Canadian National Anthem (which could be ended prematurely by someone pressing the “boo” button). Less interesting to point out that the players were already on the ice for that, though.Report
Yeah… I should have mentioned my hockey childhood was in the 70s/80s and existed under the shadow/hagiography of Slap Shot. I still don’t remember regular games sending out both teams for the Anthem… but eh, I don’t remember a lot of things about the 70s/80s.Report
The whole “starting a brawl before the national anthem” joke is one of the funniest hockey jokes of all time.
But its impact would be severely lessened if they didn’t send the players out until after the anthem.
Now I have to do some independent research…
Found my answer.
The relevant portion starts here, at 2:46.
Report
Yeah, but that’s the Cup final… I remember the anthems during the finals… its the regular season games I can’t remember. That’s what made going to the finals as a kid so cool.
And the Canadian one should always be in French.Report
Oh jeez. I missed that.
And there don’t seem to be full games from the era on the youtube.Report
Part of the problem is that we only really have pop culture and they smear everything together.
The Naked Gun, for example, has the greatest National Anthem gag ever and the players were on the field. (Those were the semi-finals though, I guess.)
I remember in The Dream Team (not available on Netflix) that our first encounter with Stephen Furst is when he’s watching the ball game on the television and singing along to the National Anthem… so they were, at least, playing that for the people at home (dunno if the players were on the field… nor if the game was part of the playoffs… though I can’t imagine their shrink would take them to a playoff ball game… not that the plot matters *THAT* much to a movie like that…).
I am distressed that we don’t have documents from the past.
This should be findable.Report
Found a 1979 regular season hockey game… it started with the starting line-up on the ice during the anthem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtTNdyhVW14
Found a 1979 regular season Cubs game… it started with the anthem for the fans only (belting out the words, too) and an empty field (see 6:00 mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9lSAR1kPJo
That squares with my recollection for baseball that the anthem was just for the fans.
Maybe the hockey thing was more of an ‘international’ gesture by singing both anthems… note that the game is US only teams, but they start with Oh Canada.
Nowadays, the Blackhawks only play the US Anthem when at home vs. other US team. I suppose just to honor Patrick Kane… 🙂
My unresearched personal recollection is that the Anthem was re-totemized after 9/11. It ebbs and flows.Report
Hrm… in the ball game, though, the players seem to be in the dugouts. (I’m looking at the knees of a number of guys as the special guests at the game that day run out to Home Plate to wave.) Does that count?
I don’t even know.
I’ve lived my whole life in a world where the National Anthem was part of sporting events.Report
Linky jailReport
I find Hugh Hewitt’s article oddly reassuring. I mean, if that is the full extent that a Trump sycophant like HH can inflate Trumps record then Trump is indeed in dire straits. For fish’s sake HH actually tried to give Trump and the GOP credit for the Dems’ coronavirus relief package even as the GOP is, in real time, refusing to re-authorize it.
Seriously, this is the guy who wrote this after Biden’s win in South Carolina.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/01/enjoy-it-joe-biden-because-it-wont-last/
Anyone who’s this reliably wrong bears paying attention to.Report