Say No To Puritarian America
Despite claiming to be like so totally anti-socialist or whatever, the dearly departed presidential candidate Mike Bloomberg sure talked a lot like a socialist at times.
Michael Bloomberg not only believed growing food for human beings was easy as 1, 2, 3. Michael Bloomberg also believed growing food for human babies was as easy as 1, 2. No three, because we’re talking about breasts, which tend to come in sets of two.
Michael Bloomberg supported the voluntary Latch On NYC initiative in which baby formula was to be kept locked up and signed out like medication, formula advertising was to be removed from hospitals, and women who wanted to use formula would have to listen to a(nother) spiel about how breast is best.
Latch On NYC wasn’t a draconian or mean-spirited policy per se, IMO — like so many nanny state programs, it was entirely well-intentioned. Once upon a time, formula companies had an undeserved inroad in hospitals, giving their product (and tons of advertising) away for free to unsuspecting new moms. I myself received a “free baby bag” from the hospital when I gave birth to my first child in 1991, stuffed with formula samples and coupons and child development magazines chock full of beautiful ads featuring prominently placed baby bottles. Additionally, many timid and insecure new moms have to deal with pushy nurses and loudmouthed relatives spouting half-truths about “not having enough milk” while attempting to get a very small red-faced stranger to latch on despite neither of them knowing what they are doing1
Latch on NYC was a well-intentioned policy, to be sure. But was it RIGHT?
I love breastfeeding. While it wasn’t always easy (and I’ll spare you all the details because I think focusing overly on the negatives is a tactic people use to deter women from breastfeeding) the happiest moments of my entire life have been spent nursing. I spent 13 years of my life breastfeeding, 10 of them consecutively, nursing 3 babies in a row, breastfeeding during pregnancy and then plunking the newbie down right alongside their big brother for dinner. I have helped hundreds of other women who doubted their abilities and struggled with it, to continue nursing successfully. And I even wrote an article about the breastfeeding debate once before.
But no matter how much I personally love breastfeeding, others are just not that into it, and surely if you’re a political party that believes in reproductive freedom and a woman’s right to choose, choosing whether or not to lactate should be a woman’s decision to make. For a party that calls itself “prochoice”, Michael Bloomberg’s Latch On NYC policy is ridiculous.
Why am I telling you all this, you may ask?? After all, Michael Bloomberg has fled with his tail tucked between his legs to lick his wounds and count his money, and he was an INDEPENDENT when he initiated this policy.
I mention it because Latch On NYC was ridiculous in a way that is very informative about not only Bloomberg, but a good many Democrats. I personally think that Latch On NYC was a policy pretty much any of the Democrats who ran for president in 2019-2020 would’ve signed on to had it been suggested to them, because they all believe in managing society for the greater good. Plus it features a simplistic good guys (new moms) vs. bad guys (big evil formula companies) narrative — catnip to Democrats. Latch On NYC would become Latch On USA, ASAP.
That brings us back to socialism. I’m going to make an assumption, and it’s an assumption some people will rail against, but I think I have the right of it. My assumption is that pretty much every Democratic candidate out there, especially the one who calls himself a socialist, wants to enact policies that are socialist-leaning in nature, increasing government control over a wide swath of human existence. You may not think this trend towards socialist policy is “socialism” per se, and Webster’s Dictionary probably agrees. Please feel free to tell me all the fancy words you use to dance around the fact that the Democrats want to move the country in a more socialist direction even if it’s not socialismsocialism, in the comments.
But I’m still going to use the word because most people know exactly what I mean by it.
While most Democratic candidates, even Bernie, define socialism in a very nebulous way to prevent themselves from being called out over the specifics (RIP Liz), I think most of us would agree socialism entails government managing society for its own good. Not just the economy, but national institutions themselves, like schools and hospitals and Amazon. Most Democrats want tighter government controls over public and private institutions alike, even if it means curtailing individual liberty to achieve it.
Autocrats like Michael Bloomberg think they know best for everyone, and sometimes they do. But the problem is, even when they’re right and they do know best, inflicting their beliefs upon everyone will carry too great a cost to civil liberties — and this is particularly true for women. It boggles my mind to watch Democrats calling for abortion to be kept legal because of civil liberty (a position I agree with) while many of them call on a woman’s civil liberties to be infringed upon “for the good of her baby” in lots of other ways.
Lest we forget, Michael Bloomberg also tried to ban 32 ounce sodas, a position I saw several liberal friends applauding because “no one needs that much sugar”, before it was struck down by the courts. A good many authoritarians, both Democrat and Republican, favor sin taxes on things like alcohol and cigarettes and gambling. They support bans on advertising for cigarettes and alcohol, not unlike the prohibition against formula advertising. All for the sake of public health.
I have absolutely no reason to doubt that most if not all Democratic candidates for president would favor public health policies that are fundamentally authoritarian in nature, like Latch On NYC. I feel certain these types of policies — banning advertising, limiting choices, and preaching…indoctrinating…er, I mean, EDUCATING the reluctant…at taxpayer expense would be more of a thing under a Democratic presidency than is now. Because according to the logic of socialism, it’s neccessary for government to keep its citizens healthy regardless of how much it costs in terms of money or civil liberty.
Some of you reading this article right now are nodding enthusiastically because you agree with the Democrats. You think there should be regulations in place to prevent people from making bad choices, especially where very adorable children are concerned. You think it’s ok for women to be lectured to about breastfeeding and to have formula locked away from them as if it was poison, and for women have to beg their doctors to prescribe it, because you believe in the greater good. You believe that a few months of aching breasts and struggling to get the right blend of fore- and hindmilk (because breastfeeding is not always a walk in the park even for those of us to whom it came easy) ain’t no big thang. You’ve concluded, in your wisdom, that for those women who work or prefer to exclusively pump, juggling the myriad challenges that come with pumping is the cost of doing business, because it serves the greater good — their child’s health.
And you may be right. Drinking soda and alcohol are bad. Smoking is bad. Breastfeeding is good. But the greatest good of all is respecting individual liberty. It’s in human nature to pursue the perfect at the expense of the good, and the good over the good enough, but perfection isn’t attainable. Perfection doesn’t exist but in the minds of bureaucrats and opinionated college students. Aiming at perfect usually ends up with a system that’s onerous and unenforceable. And it’s in the nature of government to inflict rules onto people badly, unevenly, with too heavy a hand. Charging the government with creating a perfect moral system will end in disaster. We gotta accept that good enough is good enough.
I was fed formula by a woman who smoked all during her pregnancy. I grew up in a cloud of smoke, and I was a very sickly child plagued by ear infections and bad colds. Was it because of smoke, or being fed formula? Who knows, but those things certainly didn’t help. I have a heart problem and two autoimmune diseases likely caused or exacerbated by the environment I grew up in. My mom was a college-educated, professionally successful, upper middle class woman, and yet her life choices, of which I was the recipient, were less than ideal. The people who came up with the Latch On NYC program would likely commiserate and agree my health problems ought to have been mitigated through greater education or even legal repercussions.
When you look at it that way it seems like an easy equation. Surely parents should be prevented from making any decisions that could actively hurt their baby!
Right?
I myself had a baby at the age of 42. Even more than smoking, and far more than bottlefeeding, being an older mom is considered high risk for both mother and baby, and even though I beat the odds and had a healthy baby after a healthy pregnancy, statistically it is true. Risks do increase with maternal age (although not as much as the scaremongers like to claim). Was I wrong to have my daughter? Should I have had to listen to a lecture about what a bad idea it was for me to get pregnant at my age?? Should I have had to go beg my doctor to issue me a permission slip to have a baby? Should I have faced jail time or a fine?
Many people believe the role of government should include managing the populace in society’s interests like a rancher cares for his herd. Ok. Breast is best, thus it’s desirable for government to pressure new moms to breastfeed because we want our citizens to be as healthy as possible. So is it in society’s interest to prevent potentially unhealthy children from being born in the first place? How unhealthy? Is it in society’s interest to prevent avoidable premature births? How premature? Does “society’s interest” mean we withhold expensive medical care from micropreemies? Starting when? Is it in society’s interests to force women to abort disabled babies? How disabled?? Iceland had already prided itself on eliminating Down Syndrome from its newborn population. Do we follow in their footsteps?
I know a fair number of Democrats and even quite a few Republicans think the government should have some say in deciding these ethical issues. But just like with older moms, there are plenty of other circumstances that put babies at a developmental disadvantage, disadvantages that if universal healthcare were implemented, taxpayers would have to account for. Obesity, underlying conditions, poverty – these things have been definitively linked to poor outcomes in pregnancy. Does this mean overweight, sick, and poor women shouldn’t be allowed to have children for the good of society? What about people who are autistic? Asthmatic? Have a history of miscarriage? Should ALL women have to get a permission slip to have a baby?
If so, what about her body, her choice?
Where does this end, anyway? A Byzantine, Mandarin bureaucracy where someone is always passing judgement on someone else’s choices?? Where someone is always looking over your shoulder to be sure you don’t eat lunch meat or drink coffee when you’re pregnant? Where the powers-that-be are basically embracing a type of eugenics, deciding who can breed and who can’t?? The “for the your own good” mentality behind Latch On NYC, running amok, would yield a difficult-to-navigate system rife with the potential for corruption — and unequal application. I can all but guarantee that my mother, a slim, college-educated professional woman in the upper middle class, would have been seen as a fine candidate for motherhood even though she smoked and bottlefed. A poor, overweight minority woman who smoked and bottle fed very well might not have been extended that same charity.
And that’s what the problem is with all these programs and initiatives that are “for our own good”. For our own good far too easily becomes “for the good of the child” and that’s only a half-step from that to “for the good of society.” This is especially true under universal health care because the costs of medical care are borne by everyone communally, so the choices of one person really can affect the pocketbook of another.
The slippery slope argument is something that causes people to groan and roll their eyes because we’ve heard it all before. After all, governance is by design a line-drawing exercise, so who cares if the line is drawn hither or yon? Shouldn’t the line be drawn for the benefit of the greatest good and then held there firmly, no slipping down the slope allowed?
It makes sense intuitively, I agree. But the trouble is, even if we could hold the line (doubtful) one person’s “too far” is another person’s “not nearly far enough.”
One of the reasons I believe socialism can work in small countries in Europe and will fail miserably in America is because for the most part, Europeans are surprisingly chill about other people’s choices. Thus you can find socialized health systems in countries where people smoke, drink heavily, live on various salted preserved meats and yet no one calls for unhealthy life choices to be banned even though they make everyone’s health care more expensive. But America is made up of authoritarian Puritans like Mike Bloomberg. America is made up of people who just love to tell others what to do. I swear I think it’s in our national DNA or something
Who cares? Some may say. Who cares as long as it’s my guy telling people what to do?
The funny thing about Puritarians is that they exist on both sides of the aisle. If you doubt it, please explain to me the fundamental difference between having to hear a lecture about adoption/having to hear a baby’s heartbeat before having an abortion, vs. having to hear a lecture on breastfeeding before deciding to feed with a bottle. Is there one? To me, a person who generally resents lectures even when I agree with the message, these things appear to be very much the same. Yet Republican authoritarians tend to prefer one of them and Democrat authoritarians the other.
The problem with setting up a country where Puritarians are in charge of deciding what is best for society, is that they can easily decide that what is best for society involves requiring things you don’t like or banning things you do, rather than focusing on those a-hole (insert your hated folk of choice here) people in your outgroup.
Those who call for government intervention in everyday life often exist in this if-I-ran-the-world fantasyland where they assume that only the things they personally don’t like are what will be banned or made mandatory when they create their glorious utopia. They blind themselves with visions of universal truth, believing that bad things should be forbidden because “everyone” knows they’re wrong, and believing that good things should be embraced because “everyone” knows they’re right. But right and wrong vary by person, in some cases dramatically. It’s time we started to accept that reality and allow others the grace to be wrong, even when you know, you just KNOW that somebody oughta make a law! Because I can just about guarantee ya that there’s something you’re doing that makes their skin crawl from the sheer wrongness of it.
Neither you, nor I, nor Michael Bloomberg, luckily, gets to be the benevolent dictator of the world.
Keep government limited to the things it does well (if any) and I’ll worry about my own boobs.
As a full believer in social democracy, I’m throwing up the hands and shouting ‘Testify!’ Safety nets are good, puritanism in any form are not.Report
Thanks for reading!Report
A fine rant!
PS While Bug was breastfed, he was on formula the first two weeks because he could not latch for physical reasons, a fact the first 3 lactation ‘specialists’ missed. And, of course, pumping is an exercise in frustration until the milk starts to flow, which often doesn’t happen until after the baby is nursing.
So yeah, 2 weeks of specialists making my post-partum wife feel ashamed. Let’s give those folks some legal power as well.Report
Exactly. Thanks for reading!Report
THIS! The La Leche League assholes were so overbearing and cruel that when we went to hospital for our second I told the nurses that we did not want them anywhere near us.Report
OTOH, those vegans who won’t even try to breast feed and only feed their babies a diet of nut-milks… I’m sure it can and has been done and led to a healthy baby, but IIRC, the amount of care that must be taken to balance the diet is pretty high, and new parents are often luckily if they can remember to put on pants in the morning.Report
I’ve only encountered one of those in 12 years’ time spent in the fertility world. They’re definitely outliers and not the norm at all, thankfully.Report
So as a bureaucrat who is well past highschool – we don’t aspire to perfection either. We will never have the resources for perfection. Hell, we don’t have the resources for good enough most days. And none of us who actually do government for a living are aiming to create a perfect moral system. We can’t do so with humans.
But what we can do – and I and my fellow scientists do daily – is look at what the data tell us. In the case of breast feeding (which my wife did with all three kids, including the one she had at “high risk” at 40), we have data that tells us the breastmilk is a top level source of nutrients; that certain socioeconomic groups (like black women) were actively discouraged from breastfeeding for many non-medical reasons, and that women who want to breastfeed in all but the largest metropolitan areas lack institutional support in medical settings to do so. That data leads to the conclusion that government can support personal liberty by creating and sustaining certain groups and actions that enhance and support breastfeeding as an option, and that then facilitate the use of formula where it make more sense. The whole point of Latch NY was not to create criminals out of mothers who choose formula, but rather to break a cycle that wasn’t responsive to data collected on it – to essentially correct yet another market failure.
Were there over the top stories of people taking it to an extreme? Sure. That isn’t a nefarious plot of the whole. It’s what happens in human systems. But market failures are a real thing and hoping that human nature will turn on itself both individually and collectively and voluntarily correct these failures is even more folly then what you suggest.Report
I accept that everything you say is true but it’s also a bit blind as to how this stuff can and often does play out in real life. I actually wrote a post about my own family’s experiences awhile back (here if you’re interested: https://ordinary-times.com/2018/04/06/on-expertise-and-advocacy/).
Now I’m a liberal and unlike Kristine am less dismissive of the idea that the state can at times be a force for good. But often enough well meaning ideas and policies do end up being enforced in crazy ways, and sometimes in ways which are totally counterproductive. Doesn’t mean that inaction is always the way to go but a big dose of perspective and humility is too often missing. People making policy need to actually ask questions like ‘what if we implement this so robustly that we actually confuse people about the facts’ or ‘is this so important it should be enforced by people with guns and the power to break up families’? Sometimes the answer may well be yes but most of the time it isn’t and its far from clear to me that these things are actually considered.
That’s something this whole breastfeeding thing really reinforced for me anyway.Report
It’s a selection bias problem. Often enough, when something like Latch On NYC is dreamed up and implemented, the people who sign on early to push things and enforce things are the puritans. They are the ones who can not be dispassionate arbiters, who will try to move the needle as hard and as fast as possible, everything else be damned.Report
Wow great piece!! Thanks for sharing, reading, and commenting!Report
Thank you!Report
You assume those of us charged with implementation don’t do that. More often then not we are faced with untenable trade offs of resources – namely bodies and money.
Take the Clean Air Act – passed along with the Clean Water Act to stave off increasing economic cost from pollution (and as a cynical ploy by Nixon to brand himself as an environmentalist) enforcement of the clean air act was shoved down to the states by the EPA because the EPA will never be given the tools to do the necessary science, much less the necessary enforcement. State governments have even less resources to do enforcement with, so most of the work is now making sure the necessary fines are collected, since its cheaper for most industries to pollute and pay fines then actually scrub their emissions.
I’d argue that’s crazy and counter productive, but the other two alternatives – repeal and hope for market corrections that won’t come voluntarily or fully funding science and enforcement – are not going to happen either. So as the OP says, we have good enough because we will never get to perfect.Report
But your own examples (EPA, Clean Air Act) really do evidence a distinction. In those cases you’re talking about big, tragedy of the commons type issues, or situations where powerful actors are using their resources to avoid accountability for doing real damage to the public. That is not the same as using aggregate statistical analysis about what foods might be marginally healthier to lock up food for children. I think we can all argue about where exactly the lines are, and it can definitely be blurry but to me this is as clear as it gets and quite illustrative of the problem with reflexive statism.Report
The EPA, much like the IRS, also suffers from the Iron Law, which we can easily see when such agencies make it a priority to go after low impact targets who have limited resources to fight with, just so the agency can keep their enforcement numbers up there. So the big bad guys get to skip because the agency would rather show large numbers of individual actions, rather than a smaller number of higher impact actions (mainly because it is difficult to quantify ‘higher impact’, and it’s easier to go after smaller fish).Report
“Science” has been used to justify all sorts of things.
“Science” knew that ulcers were caused by stress, not bacteria.
“Science” told us to put babies to sleep on their tummy, not their back.
“Science” knew that a very low fat and protein, high carb diet based around grains was healthy and so America started living on Snackwell’s cookies and got fatter and fatter.
“Science” told us you could foretell criminals by the shape of their skulls.
“Science” gave us drug-resistant microbes and DDT.
“Science” has been used to “prove” women inferior to men and blacks inferior to whites.
“Science” has been used to warp the criminal justice system and convict the innocent..
“Science has been used to justify a host of evil things https://ordinary-times.com/2020/03/01/my-corona-authorities-bureaucracies-and-the-illusions-of-safety/
And of course “science” is often dead wrong. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/
https://www.nature.com/news/over-half-of-psychology-studies-fail-reproducibility-test-1.18248 https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/3/3/14792174/half-scientific-studies-news-are-wrong
Science is in the midst of “The Replication Crisis” right now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis because so many scientific studies, particularly in psychology and medicine (the two kinds of studies bureaucrats really ought to rely upon the most) have been proven untrue.
Science has limitations and drawbacks and one of the greatest is that it is often used to justify the doing of bad things by good people.Report
I didn’t say science – I said data.
Data can be used to do wrong.
Religion can be used to do wrong.
Money can be used to do wrong.
All of that is true.
If you are looking for good enough to help people however, then purely commerce driven individual liberty based approaches are the worst way to do so in society because very few people are truly altruistic. The ones who are (like Ghandi or MLK) are generally murdered for it. Most people put their needs above others, and will generally seek to horde or deny resources base don their interpretations of personal best, not societal need.
So if you want societies to succeed -and I know more then 1 or 2 libertarians who don’t seem to want that – then you need a stabilizing mechanism that operates above the level of person. Data in many forms – including human history – tells us that markets are ABYSMAL at this. which leaves either religion (also abysmal generally) or government. There’s really no other option.
As to the replication crisis – most of us have railed against this sort of thing our whole careers but we exist – by choice – in a system that still largely rewards volume of publication and can’t accept failure of positive hypothesis testing. Its why the professional societies have all gone in on various scientific integrity policies.Report
Oh yes, I forgot that data appears left on the ground every morning like manna from heaven!
Data in many forms, including human history also tells us that governments are also abysmal as a stabilizing mechanism because they’re made up of the exact same people who put their needs above others and generally seek to horde or deny resources based on their interpretations of personal best, not societal need.Report
“If you are looking for good enough to help people however, then purely commerce driven individual liberty based approaches are the worst way to do so in society because very few people are truly altruistic.”
Which is why capitalism, a “purely commerce driven individual liberty based approach” has been responsible for the greatest reduction in human poverty and highest standard of living in human history: it doesn’t run on the assumption that people are altruistic, it runs on the assumption that they are selfish and greedy, then outlaws any approach to gaining wealth (i.e. theft) that would otherwise be more efficient than mutually beneficial trade.
“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages” – Adam Smith
“Data in many forms – including human history – tells us that markets are ABYSMAL at this”
Data and History also tells us that central control of the economy via government (e.g. socialism) is even more ABYSMAL at it. Capitalism, like Democracy, is a terrible system…but it is the least worst of all the ones we’ve ever tried.Report
I have no interest in central planning or control. The great vast majority of liberals don’t either. I have little patience for such things frankly. I agree it hasn’t worked – but I note that the most centrally planned countries end up being run by oligarchies of small numbers of very rich men. The Soviet Union had this challenge and China currently has it in spades.Report
Than “individual liberty based” approaches are your only alternative. If you reject distributed decision-making, all you’re left with is centralized decision-making.
Regarding small numbers of very rich men: this is largely inevitable in any system in which luck plays a significant role. You get the same result even just by randomly determining the outcome of actions (i.e. you could have 100 people start with $100 dollars and make them start betting on coin flips, and you’ll see the same pattern emerge where most people stay within a deviation at first, some win big and some lose big, but over continued flips the number who hit $0 and are forced out inevitably increases and the top end of the distribution climbs higher and higher for fewer and fewer people until at some point almost everyone is either broke or rich. Merit, skill, and good judgement (or lying, cheating, and corruption) can improve the odds, but Gambler’s Ruin still determines the overall trend: those who have the least are most likely to lose it all, those who can afford the most losses are most likely to see the greatest gains. That’s just luck.Report
“…capitalism, a “purely commerce driven individual liberty based approach” has been responsible for the greatest reduction in human poverty and highest standard of living in human history”
OK, we keep hearing this claim so lets look at it.
In every single nation in the world in which people rose out of poverty, markets were mixed with powerful state control; Everything from Chinese state capitalism, to the American New Deal, or European social welfare state, the rise in wealth was also accompanied by government regulation and control over markets.
So it would be fair to say wouldn’t it, that “State regulation of markets has been responsible for the greatest reduction in human poverty etc.”?
Well, no it wouldn’t, anymore than asserting that it was “capitalism” that did this.
The creation of wealth isn’t the result of a single magic bullet any more than the destruction of wealth is.
If wealth could be created simply by applying “markets” then Haiti would be as prosperous as Norway. But they obviously aren’t, so something else must be lacking.
Wealth requires markets yes, but also a high trust and cooperative society, a regulatory state, and other things as well.
This is an example of the “revolutionary” thinking I mentioned in the other thread, where once the barriers of the old regime are fallen, then the magic of the revolution will just make things happen without further effort or work.Report
“So it would be fair to say wouldn’t it, that “State regulation of markets has been responsible for the greatest reduction in human poverty etc.”?”
Depends, like taxes, regulation has an associated cost. That’s like saying “hydration is responsible for health”, dehydration and over-hydration are both lethal and there are plenty of other requirements as well. Given our discussion of the Laffer Curve, I’ll assume that you’re also familiar with “regulatory burden”, but elaborate on the concept for any lurkers. There’s an inflection point to markets such that on one side the market is not optimally free because of distorting factors like monopoly, uncertainty, fraud, etc and on the other side likewise less free due to banned activities, compliance/tax costs, cronyism, etc. Free market Capitalism isn’t one end of an axis with State-run economy on the other, Capitalism is the centrist part of the axis with anarchy on the end opposite State-run.
“If wealth could be created simply by applying “markets” then Haiti would be as prosperous as Norway. But they obviously aren’t, so something else must be lacking.”
Capitalism requires wealth to invest, entrepreneurs to invest in, a market with sufficient liquidity to provide a customer base, and the rule of law to enforce business ethics, contracts, and the protection of private property. Seems to me Norway is superior to Haiti on all counts, so superior performance is to be expected.
“Wealth requires markets yes, but also a high trust and cooperative society, a regulatory state, and other things as well.”
Those “other things” include capitalists, hence “Capitalism” as the general term. I rather like your point about “a high trust and cooperative society” (e.g. “social capital”) though. That seems underappreciated in today’s politics. I also consider it one of the primary reasons socialism doesn’t scale well, the greater the power and distance differential between the ruler and the ruled the less trust there generally is on either side. Likewise, excessive regulation promotes the assumption that noncompliance would otherwise be the norm, undermining trust in the regulated (and when bad things happen anyway, undermines trust in the regulators themselves). Socialism seems to have a higher minimum social capital requirement than Capitalism, so it fails faster when trust and cooperation drop, but neither work effectively in areas with very low social capital (ironically, Democracy likewise seems to have a higher minimum social capital than Authoritarianism, explaining why troubled economies tend to fall into a death spiral of authoritarian socialism). That social capital is falling in America is a clear and present danger to both our economy and our political system, but good luck getting a majority to agree on the causes or solutions.Report
Counter-take: Limited Government is puritanical. It is the puritanism of sucks to be you if bad things happen to you and you are not adequately wealthy enough to handles whatever unfortunate events happen to you. It is the puritanicalism that abhors the concepts of universal healthcare, mandatory sick leave, or mandatory paid vacation unlike nearly every other country in the developed world because it shits its pants at the idea that someone “undeserving” (usually a “blah” person) would get those things. It is the puritanism of hucksters combining Calvinism with a worship of wealth to praise the rich and damn the poor or nearly everyone outside the 1 percent.
I agree fuck the puritans and puritarians but disagree on who they are.Report
here here.Report
I think you can favor those types of policies and still think there are real limitations on what the state is capable of achieving, and places that it ought not go, or problems that it isn’t well suited to solving.Report
This says a lot more about your understanding of the issues than about people who disagree with you.Report
You’re wrong, because limited government doesn’t ban charities, organizations, religious groups, communities, families, friends, and random strangers from doing any of those things.
Only government can say it’s “my way or the highway.” Only government can say “you have to give us money no matter how badly we manage it and no matter how draconian our policies”. Only government can force people to give money to bloated and corrupt institutions.
I choose not to give money to the Salvation Army and the Boy Scouts because of their position on homosexuality. I can’t chose not to give money to the US Government because of their position on carpetbombing Bagdhad (and BTW also gives organizations like the Salvation Army and Boy Scouts tax free status).
This idea you have in your head where “I care so passionately about people but no one else does so I gotta FORCE EM” is nonsense (and entirely Puritanical). Most people do care about helping others! Just because some of us don’t think the government is getting good results with their programs (not to mention, as I literally just did in a previous post, that I favor cutting back on lots of other areas rather than the social safety net, and even expanding the safety net to work more efficiently) does not mean we want people to die in the streets.
A person can have a different idea about how to get to a particular endgame than you do, and that doesn’t mean they are an eevul person who says “sucks to be you.” In fact, if your idea isn’t working (and human feces in the streets, abandoned needles where children play, homeless camps, and 128 people dying every day of opioids is indicating to me that it isn’t) and all you can come up with is “keep doing exactly what we’re doing, only harder!!!”, that seems to me to be an uncaring and coldhearted response. If you can’t let go of a philosophy you hold very dear, even when it’s obviously hurting people, it may be that the person making another suggestion may in fact care more about helping others than you do.
Now, I may be entirely wrong about what I think will help, but I’m certainly not a bad person telling anyone “it sucks to be you, hope you die in the streets” and I strongly suspect you know that. So please don’t ever question my motivation in that regard again.Report
I’ve worked for charities. They are great in their way but have serious limits. Especially religious charities. Charities have much less funding in general and are limited by when charitable giving is high. They are poorly suited to counter cyclical interventions since giving goes down when the economy hits the crapper but that is when more people need help. Charities can be selective about who they help based on things like religion or sexuality. In rural areas, which you know about, that often mean some people don’t get help or need pretend they aren’t gay, etc just to get help. This, imho, isn’t good.
I’ve also had a people tell me how pissed they are that the gov is giving their ex health care and money since now their ex could get away from them. Yes i am talking about situations with DV and alcohol abuse. In rural areas churches dont’ have the resources but will side with keeping the family together over little things like getting a DV victim out of the home. Charities have serious limits and if they are the only option some groups will have their liberty limited.Report
Your claim is nonsensical and illogical. This article is using “puritanical” in the (not actually correct) sense of “imposing one’s own morality on others”, essentially a “benevolent” authoritarianism. Small Government Libertarianism is the definitional opposite of authoritarianism (benevolent or otherwise). It imposes nothing on anyone, so you’re still quite welcome to go form a health care co-op and and offer your own employees whatever benefits you see fit.
Bluntly, if you think puritanism worshiped wealth or damned the poor you are shockingly ignorant about where much of our American charitable traditions originate. Puritanism answers the “free rider” problem by making it socially unacceptable to freeload while it also makes it socially mandatory for those with excess to provide charity to those genuinely in need. Piss on hard work, self-reliance, and religious charity all you want, but the more you do so the faster you’ll run out of other people’s money and find your socialist utopia ending up a humanitarian disaster like Venezuela .Report
“Other people are not your business.”
“That’s pretty puritanical.”Report
“But the greatest good of all is respecting individual liberty.”
Sez who?
See, this illustrates the libertarian struggle.
Conservatives and liberals have always understood politics to be concerned with the inherent tension between liberty and order.
All their theories attempt to create rules and hueristics and tests to help determine when liberty overrides order, or vice versa.
For example, speech should be free, except for slander, or time place and manner restrictions; Public order must be maintained, but different opinions and customs should be respected.
Obviously both groups draw different lines, create different test, but they both concern themselves with resolving the tension.
“The greatest good of all is respecting individual liberty” is a statement that can’t accomplish that since it admits no tension. It doesn’t see the greatest good as an optimum of competing goals, but as one of maximizing one.
And in its own way, is every bit as oppressive as any nannystatism, because it imposes a singular vision upon people who have shown no desire for it.
Urusigh in the other thread used the phrase “engineers of the human soul” in describing religion. I was about to comment on the irony of using that phrase, evoking as it does the ugly malign history, but it also reflect the universal choice of people to do exactly that, to find some way to attain solidarity and transcendence.
People even today in secular cultures have demonstrated repeatedly that they value both liberty and order, and choose to accept the tension even when it leads to clashes.
Asserting that liberty is the highest goal as libertarians do (hey, its right there in the name!) ignores this revealed preference in favor of an arbitrary moral choice.Report
Beyond the scope of the piece. Thanks for reading and commenting, but of course these are not manifestos, they’re articles touching on one tiny piece of the puzzle.Report
Is the liberty of mothers in choosing their child’s diet really the highest good?
Always and without exception?
Or are there competing goals which allow the state to have a legitimate interest in the mother’s dinner menu?Report
Is it a nudge or a push? Does the state have an interest? Let’s say yes. Now the question becomes, how much ‘force’ is justified to satisfy the government interest?
It’s one thing to offer new mothers information regarding nursing their new baby, and assistance getting the whole thing rolling. It’s something else to lock alternatives away or otherwise demand that nursing be the only option open to new mothers.
Again, there are gradients at play. While the libertarian ideal may be ‘keep your government out of my life’, the political reality of libertarians is to put forth the question of, “Are you using the minimal ‘force’ necessary to achieve your ends? Can you prove that?”Report
Beyond that you really have an honest broker problem in the US that I’m not sure exists anywhere else. It’s one thing to keep arsenic out of the baby food. But that’s not always what’s going on. We also have highly motivated actors who insert themselves into obscure corners of public policy few people know about and that aren’t subject to unbiased oversight.Report
Exactly.
The answer to what “reasonable” search is, or how to balance the need to protect children versus the liberty of parents to control them, are negotiable points, ones that are fiercely debated by people of good will.
So asserting that “Liberty is the highest good” is as unproductive as asserting that “Protecting children is the highest good”; It doesn’t help us resolve our conflicts.
Whether forcing nursing mothers to listen to pro-breastfeeding literature is an acceptable use of power or not, is a debatable point, not axiomatically good or bad.Report
Yay! Forced ultrasound laws!Report
Case in point.Report
Where we disagree is not whether government should force women to do this.
We disagree over whether it has the jurisdiction to do this.Report
You don’t believe the government has the jurisdiction to prevent parents from harming their children?Report
Ultrasounds == Child Abuse?
Are you familiar with some of the side effects of 5G radiation?Report
Protecting the rights of the unborn is a legitimate jurisdiction of the state, according to some, no different than protecting you from being murdered.
I disagree, but its not obvious and unassailable.Report
There are plenty of things that are a legitimate jurisdiction of the state, according to some.
Where we disagree is not whether government should force people to do things
We disagree over whether it has the jurisdiction to do these things.Report
Of course.
But my original point was that using the language of “X is the highest good” prevents us from finding a path towards disagreement.
One person wants to maximize liberty; Another wants to maximize order;
Without an understanding of optimizing competing claims through negotiation and compromise, we are just stuck on first principles.Report
Well, I suppose comparing societies wouldn’t work…
I mean, is it even possible to compare two societies?
I mean, we can’t even say if our society is better (or worse) this year than last year. How can we say that this one that has the dials turned up to 7 is worse than that one that has the dials turned down to 3?Report
I’m not grasping what you’re saying here.Report
If we’re hoping to optimize claims, we have to have some basis of saying whether a society is better than it used to be.
Or worse.Report
Why do we “have to”?
Societies negotiate all sorts of claims about norms and morality and justice, all the while having wildly different sets of beliefs about the good.
Our modern conception of what is “reasonable” search, or “undue burdens” or “cruel and unusual” were all negotiated and litigated and resolved into their current form without any such basis.Report
I guess I don’t understand what you mean by “optimize”, then.Report
Optimize just means reaching an agreement where conflicting claims are resolved according to some set of moral priors.
Like, conservatives and liberals have each separately worked out an optimum balance between order and liberty as they understand it, and collectively have worked out an optimum balance between their competing frameworks which allows a peaceful resolution.
What allows them to do this is as Jonathan Haidt noted, they really have a shared start point of values, they just stress different parts of it in different circumstances; Liberty here, Order over there.
And we can speak each other’s language; I can appeal to an anti-abortion advocate’s sensibilities by pointing out the dehumanizing effects of forced birth, and the tyrannical intrusiveness of those laws.
I can do this because they also value individual liberty as we do, even if they subordinate it in different places.
But refusing optimization in favor of maximization blocks that; It doesn’t give us any common area to work with.Report
Yeah, you’re totally using “optimize” in ways that I’m not familiar with, then.Report
it’s so funny watching Chip try to do a kafkatrap hereReport
did you read the entire second half of the piece in which I lay out the issues with this chain of thought? If not, I refer you back to them.Report
What no love for the La Lecha Leauge when ranting about pressure to breastfeed? They have been pushing hard for a long time.Report
They are bad, bad people. But I’m pretty biased.Report
Pretty much agreed. Zealots. They have been a serious player in creating the breast is the only good choice thing.Report
It’s obvious from Bloomberg’s tenure as mayor of NYC that he has nanny state tendencies. But how successful was he in making any of his opinions take root in reality? From what I can see on the interwebs, the Latch On program failed to latch on (sorry!). His pop tax failed to pass. It’s not clear to me where the danger lies here. Besides, Bloomberg wasn’t a Democrat (at least as far as political office is concerned) until he decided to run in that party’s primary this year.
There are plenty of politicians on the other side of the aisle who have other nanny state tendencies, just expressed to a different constituency.Report
His pop tax didn’t fail to pass. It was blocked by the courts before it could be implemented.
Compare, for example, to Trump’s travel ban. Imagine someone defending Trump by saying “but it didn’t go through!”Report
Politicians propose all sorts of crazy sh*t that never gets enacted. I’m neither defending nor attacking Bloomberg. It seems as though the political system and the marketplace of ideas both worked as one would have hoped here.Report
so, yeah, then, it’s cool to defend Trump by saying “but it didn’t go through!”Report
There was no Bloomberg “pop tax” struck down by the courts. Bloomberg got the NYC Dept. of Health to ban large sugary drinks, like the big Arizona-brand soft drinks, not to tax them. The courts blocked it because the NYC Dept. of Health lacked the regulatory authority to do that. The court never addressed what the City Council could have done in its legislative capacity, either to ban big gulps or to tax sugary drinks. (I simply don’t recall, and don’t much care, if he had previously tried to get a tax through the City Council or not before having DOH issue its big gulp ban.) In other places, like Philadelphia, where the city’s legislative body passed an actual tax, there has been no legal problem.Report
You’re absolutely right. His pop tax didn’t get struck down by the courts.
His ban got struck down by the courts.
I regret the error.
Edit: I stand by the comparison to Trump’s ban being struck down by the courts, though… as well as to attempts to defend the ban not being that bad due to how it was blocked by the courts.Report