Harsh Your Mellow Monday: Bolton, Bernie, Paula White, and Mike Pompeo
Harsh Your Mellow Monday has plenty of ground to cover with everything from the delusional to the divine, so let us get right to it.
[HM1] John Bolton, Hated Warmonger Turned Resistance Unicorn Turned Book Salesman
When Johnny beat the devil for the golden fiddle down in Georgia, he didn’t string ol’ Satan along half as well from that tree stump as John Bolton is currently working the news media over what he knows.
Now, you may believe all the leaks from Bolton about how much he wants to testify, and how much he is just dying to tell his story, and how much amazeballs information he has to divulge, and his formula for turning lead to gold, and on and on and on… Oh, and the excerpt from his forthcoming book about the President withholding aid just happened to circulate into certain eager hands the day after the Democratic House Managers completed their opening statements and the Senate hit the pause button after a brief preview from the President’s rebuttal team. You can believe that is all just happening. Or … you can understand book marketing to a current event in real time in the modern age. Because that is what we have here.
There are not going to be witnesses at this impeachment trial. There will be much hand wringing and many furrowed brows of deep concern and very seriously considered objections. And then will come the party-line or close to it votes by the Republican majority to hurry this along. That will be followed by a party line vote plus or minus one or two folks defecting for their own purposes (How you doing, Joe Manchin, good to see you) to acquit.
Feel free to enjoy the plot, staging, special effects, acting, and cinematography between now and then. But that’s how this movie ends.
And John Bolton knows it. The second those two votes to not remove the president go down, so do all his requests for media hits and show appearances along with his new-found status as Savior to the Resistance and the latest in a long line of silver bullet that will finally kill the Trump presidency in one shot. Along with interest in his book. Along with his hoped-for book sales.
John Bolton is masterfully playing folks desperate to buy what he is selling them, knowing full well he won’t deliver, knowing his end will be taken care of in advanced copies and the initial bump up the bestseller list.
Politics come into play with the Senate, but they don’t with Bolton. He hold no office and has no primary to worry about. The Senators who do the voting do have these concerns. Bolton’s incentive is to make noise, appear important, and sell his book. A GOP senator’s is to not get primaried 30 seconds after voting against a president who is going to have a quarter billion dollar war chest to blitz folks he holds a grudge against down ticket.
John Bolton is many things. Unicorn isn’t one of them. Don’t go chasing him looking for impeachment redemption, ’cause it ain’t happening.
[HM2] The Bernfire of Vanities
Since we just watched this very movie four years ago, we really shouldn’t have to go over this again. But here we are. So let us rehash this for the new folks, slow learners, our friends from Logan, and the folks in the back who don’t hear too good:
Bernie Sanders is not going to win the Democratic Nomination for president.
I know, I know. The polls! The Headlines! The Vox-splained!
“Sanders nearly doubles his support in New Hampshire poll,” says Politico.
“Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders leads in New Hampshire, continuing to widen his top position,” reports CNN.
“Bernie Sanders’s path to the 2020 Democratic nomination, explained.” Vox-splains Vox.
And what, you may ask after such non-subtle prompting, would said Vox-splained path be?
With such a close and crowded primary, and many voters still undecided, the final weeks are the most critical. This also means relatively minor changes in turnout can make a huge difference for candidates, especially in the Iowa caucuses.
“If we win Iowa and New Hampshire, I think we stand a great chance to win Nevada, I think we’re strong there,” Sanders told a crowd of supporters this weekend. “I think we’re going to do very well in South Carolina, I think we’re going to win California and many other states on Super Tuesday. And if we do all that, we will have accomplished something never done in the modern history of America, and that is put together an unprecedented political revolution.”
Of course the rest of the piece is about all the ways it will be different this time. “If” does an enormous amount of load-bearing in the piece but here is another “If”: If that sounds familiar, it is because it is, as Vox-splained by Vox in 2016 right around this same time:
The nightmare scenario for Clinton at this point — which is not all that implausible — is that Sanders wins both Iowa and New Hampshire. If that happens, political elites and the press will mercilessly mock and second-guess the Clinton campaign for weeks. Yet insiders also understand that both states are heavily white and not representative of the more diverse Democratic electorate overall. So the big question is whether the positive coverage Sanders gets will help improve his performance among nonwhite Democrats who have seemed uninterested in his candidacy so far — and that will be put to the test in the next contest, South Carolina.
Wanna guess what happened in South Carolina? Go on. If you don’t remember, we’ll wait while you Google it.
Back? Goody, let us continue.
“THIS TIME IS DIFFERENT!” swarm the Bernie fans seeking to find common cause with the folks who need a horse race narrative to feed, because said narrative eats content like, well, a horse. Vox’s piece goes into great depth discussing the Sanders campaign’s efforts at outreach and upstaffing for that very reason. It is different, but not in ways to help the longest serving Independent Senator who runs for president as a Democrat. This isn’t a two person race with him as the coalescing point for all non-Hillary Clinton Democrats. His recent resurgence in the polls has mostly drained support from fellow Senator Elizabeth Warren’s backslide and Mayor Pete Buttigieg’s return to the distant also-runnings. It has not come at the expense of wire-to-wire leader Joe Biden.
So even if Bernie wins Iowa and New Hampshire, which he should, don’t get overly attached to the Bernmentum. He should win both. But being in a tight race in the former and spending much more money and effort than anyone else in the latter is not a sign of strength. Nevada’s caucus looks to be competitive, but after that the hill gets steep. Bernie trails by a bunch in South Carolina. And in the biggest Super Tuesday states, things do not look promising for the Bern. Biden is up +10 in California, +20 in Texas, and +12 in North Carolina. While other states, notably Virginia, don’t have up-to-date polling yet, most of them are friendlier to Biden than they are to Sanders. Massachusetts is Warren’s home turf, Colorado might be Bernie friendly and Maine might be a toss up, but if Biden takes three or four of the top 5 on March 3rd, the hill to climb to unseat Biden from frontrunner becomes a sheer cliff in a hurry.
All that is to say: we’ve seen this movie before. Bernie Sanders might have a better plan and ground game than last time. But he also has a fuller field that isn’t going to bow out just to do him a favor. And the party powers that be are not exactly thrilled to have him as standard bearer. Most of all, he is still Bernie Sanders. Add it all up and smart odds are that we will see a replay of 2016: Bernie in second place as protest vote against the more establishment candidate; and returning to being an Independent Senator from Vermont in due course. Again.
Anything could happen. We will be reminded of that ad nauseum for the next two months. But it won’t.
[HM3] Paula White Puts the “What the Heck” in Heretic
Part-time Spiritual Advisor to the President and full time charlatan Paula White-Cain found herself trending on social media:
“We command all satanic pregnancies to miscarry right now” — Special Adviser to the White House Faith and Opportunity Initiative Paula White pic.twitter.com/gtdZyGfkxy
— Guthrie Graves-Fitzsimmons (@GuthrieGF) January 25, 2020
White responded on Twitter:
I don’t normally respond but clearly this has been taken out of context. I was praying Eph 6:12 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Anything that has been conceived by demonic plans, for it to be cancelled and not prevail in your life… https://t.co/tKEUs4muwZ
— Paula White-Cain (@Paula_White) January 26, 2020
That was like the third or fourth most problematic thing she said in that clip, but anyway…
For the uninitiated, Paula White-Cain is the very controversial minister who now retains an official White House role with the “Faith and Opportunity Initiative.” She has been a friend to the president since 2002, and also a tenant of his.. By controversial, I mean she is a pariah in almost all Christian circles of any reputable note. When such divergent ends of the theological spectrum as Rev. Dr. William J. Barber II and Dr. Russel Moore agree that you are a charlatan and heretic, you got some problems that go far beyond doctrinal disagreements.
That doesn’t seem to matter to the President, who is well known to value loyalty above all other things in the folks surrounding him. Paula White-Cain fits that bill, and no matter how utterly coo-coo-for-Cocoa-Puffs she might be theologically, she will be not be leaving the President’s inner circle of spiritual Praetorians that include Jerry Falwell, Jr, Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress and others with a clear stake beyond the spiritual in the presidency in Donald J. Trump. Like many other things with the President, it doesn’t matter what kind of Christian you are, just as long as you are the Trump kind.
[HM4] Mike Pompeo’s Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad NPR Interview (slight return)
Speaking of Bible Verses from folks who need to be not talking at all in public for a while, now cometh Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.
“Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips and spreads slander is a fool” -Proverbs 10:18 #SundayScripture ✝️
— Mike Pompeo (@mikepompeo) January 26, 2020
In case you missed it over the weekend, the Secretary of State found himself in a spat with NPR’s Mary Louise Kelly who alleged Pompeo called her aside after an interview to rant, curse, and give her a geography quiz. He then responded to the reporting by issuing a rather incredible statement on SecState letterhead that was long on whining and notably absent in denials:
Official response from Pompeo about his NPR interview. Haven’t seen anything like this before with a State Department seal on it: pic.twitter.com/Hi1P18ZS0A
— Robbie Gramer (@RobbieGramer) January 25, 2020
Which brings us to the Sunday Morning reading of Proverbs by Secretary Pompeo, who should just stop talking about this publicly. But he can’t help himself despite even die-hard supporters of the Trump Administration calling on him to stand down on this one.
Oh, by the way, the verse before the one Pompeo quoted in his tweet: “He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth”.
May the Lord bless the reading of His Word, or at least the Spirit move on the heart and mind of Mike “MapQuest” Pompeo to know when to shut up, stop being a jackass unbecoming of his office, and take the L.
Thus endeth Harsh Your Mellow Monday. And all the people said, “Amen.”
1. I don’t think anyone on the left except the most naive (or concern trolls) see John Bolton as a “resistance hero.” But his book can still be a valuable document laying out the dysfunction and authoritarianism of the White House. Not that I am going to buy it.
2. The prosperity gospel has been around for how long now? Over a hundred years? More probably. Perhaps Dr. Barber II and Dr. Moore should look at why the prosperity gospel continues to hold despite or because of its alleged heresies. Trump’s biggest core of support comes from white evangelicals and they seem to love themselves preachers like Paula White. It is all about wealth and power to them.Report
1. While the tone of the angle I took here is purposefully snarky, your point fair and is best asked seriously: Is it not well established, at this point, the dysfunction of the White House? We are how many “bombshell books” into this administration now? I don’t think Bolton’s will be any more long-term meaningful than the others, especially as the release date is right in the heart of primary season and folks will be focused on other things.
2. Longer. The particular strand of Charismatic prosperity gospel rose out of the antebellum south, and most of that strand of thought claim the 1906 Azusa Street meetings as their genesis point, but the modern form is very much an evolution of the televangelist of the Swaggart/Bakker variety. It holds the same way any other scam does, folks want to believe the pitch.Report
It matters for the sake of preservation of the historical record and on election day. This sort of stuff has to have helped Democrats in elections from 2017-2019.Report
historical record, yes. Changing the course of, I’m skeptical.Report
No bombshell book has done much on its own, but I don’t think the cumulative effect has been negligible.
This Administration is many things, but neither “widely respected” nor “smoothly running” have ever been among them.Report
I think Andrew is right re:Bolton. From my reading over the last 24 hours it sounds like the progressive press is on the verge of anointing him the latest Bush II era nincompoop to be a silver bullet to the Trump presidency. He won’t be.Report
I agree he won’t be – but that doesn’t mean this isn’t important news nor that it fails to add pressure to the millstone Republicans are hanging around their own necks. Knowing how non-security related interagency clearance processes work at the WH I’m also not sold on this being a release that Bolton engineered just to drive book sales later. If that was his desire I think he’d have waited.
My take on Bolton is that he feels shafted by Trump over Iran, and so he’s pulling levers where he can to get even. Bolton is a regime change loving neocon hawk, and there’s no reason to believe he would be dis satisfied with a Trump removal.Report
My take on Bolton is that someone on the NSC (!) leaked the excerpt after Bolton submitted it for approval. Because they are hopping mad that Bolton would hold out on testifying on this stuff. NSC people stuck their necks out and went before the House on this stuff, and they are probably pretty cheesed at the boss for not doing the same.
But no, this guy isn’t going to be anyone’s savior. He’s a disgrace. He should never have held office.
“Never mind about my country, the constitution, or due process. I’m going to cash in!” – John BoltonReport
Forrmer San Diego City Council person attacks Issa for being insufficiently Trumpist, Issa attacks the councilman for being gay. This says everything you need to know about the rot in the Republican Party: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/1/27/1914224/-Morning-Digest-Former-GOP-congressman-runs-bigoted-ad-highlighting-that-his-top-GOP-rival-is-gayReport
My favorite from late last week/the weekend was Warren and the father talking about her loan forgiveness plan.
I especially like how the overwhelming response from people who support this kind of forgiveness is that the father (and everyone else who is critical of such a plan) just want everyone else to suffer like they did. You know, I get it, there are people on the right* that are all about how people should be forced to pay a penance or what not.
But this kind of criticism isn’t about suffering, it’s about the moral hazard of such a plan.Report
One question I’d want answered:
How would we deal with Degree Creep?
(“Degree Creep”, as I’ve seen the term used, is when a job has tasks that do not require a Bachelor’s Degree of some kind but also has the HR requirement that the person have a Degree before they even get an interview.)Report
The way the large corporate world is going to deal with it is get college students before graduation, military/other life experiences/exceptional HS students into the company fold early then work them up through the structure including school options with riders they will take care school but you have to stay with company for X amount of years. That way they are paying lower wages to get them in the door and vet them as they rise through the structure. You are already seeing this kind of “pipelining” become more popular.Report
I think before that really takes off, the corporate world is going to have to figure out how to deal with toxic managers. Part of the reason my wife is leaving her employer at the end of March is the executive she reports to has decided that anyone not in his inner circle is to be treated with contempt, and the executives above him don’t care to deal with him (they know about how he treats people, it’s been reported, multiple times).
This is after the company has paid a lot of money to put my wife (and quite a few of her contemporaries, who are also jumping ship, or have already) through a number of external and internal leadership training programs.Report
I know that my company had a hiring decision, oh, three years ago where we needed a programmer and had a choice between a seasoned veteran who was moving out here and let us know that he’d only want to work for us for a year or so, while he was establishing himself and a young, hungry kid (22 or 23), who didn’t have a college degree but taught himself programming via internet tutorials and had a couple of certifications (he was in landscaping when he interviewed). I said “if we hire the hungry kid, he’ll stick around”.
And he was *GREAT*. He wanted to learn and we taught him and he wanted to learn even more and we got him more certs and it was an amazing two years and then he found a job in Denver.
Sigh.Report
Last company I worked for that was the direction they were going in for management trainees as well. It’s the downside, but there are fewer alternatives because a four year degree tells you nothing of leadership ability, and without a work record to go of off its a complete crapshoot. The theory was at least that way you know what you are getting before the degree part kicks in.Report
I’ll tell this story again: I’ve a dear friend who is middle-management at a place that is somewhere on the cusp between unskilled and skilled labor. He has said that he would rather hire a person who has spent the 4 years after high school as an assistant manager for Pizza Hut or Domino’s or McDonald’s or something than a graduate from a 4 year college.
He knows the assistant manager knows how to shower, how to dress, how to show up on time, how to deal with crazy customers, how to deal with co-worker drama, how to deal with issues where three people call in “sick” on a Friday night when there is a party. “All I know about the college graduate is that s/he can outdrink me.”Report
So why didn’t you work harder to keep him happy?
As an aside, another thing I think corporate culture has to come to terms with is that they utterly destroyed any sense of employee loyalty that once existed. Even my generation (and I’m in my 40’s) operates on the notion that I am loyal to the company only so long as the company shows it in return. If I get asked to sacrifice pay and/or benefits, but I see leadership living it up, I have no loyalty to the firm. I will jump ship as soon as I feel it is in my best interests to do so. Maybe that will be next month, maybe it’ll be in a few years.Report
Jeez louise, we did.
He went from being a guy who did X work and touched Y from time to time as part of his job to being a guy who now does Y work (and another department entirely does X work).
We wanted and tried to keep him and made him offers but… we only have but so much of what he wants to do available for him to do.
And he now has a job where he spends 90% of his day doing the thing he wants to do (rather than a couple hours per week).
His job now is exciting and sexy (he’s programming for companies and products you’ve heard of and may even use regularly). His old job, here, was dull.Report
What is your evidence for this happening and on what time line? There used to be a time when corporations felt it was important to do this. There used to be a time when it was possible to go from the mailroom to the board room. Those days are long gone.Report
I worked for two different companies that both had programs like this. There are even examples of folks with degrees going for more advanced degrees/training within a company, for example in the medical field a hospital system may pay a nurse to get nurse anesthetist training provided they sign a contract to remain in that system for X amount of years or conditions. These are the minority, though, to your point, but I think it will change slowly, especially if the long discussed “education bubble” really does become a popping thing.
Part of the problem, and why my last company (This was a nationwide, top three in country its field company for reference) was turning to that model and internal hires up the ranks more and more was the HR/Taleo-type systems where grabbing large pools of really similar candidates all with the same degree box checked but not suitable for the jobs needed filled. It was costing them money constantly hiring the same folks that were “failing” as in not stay/succeeding/growing w/the company so out of necessity the approach was slowly changing. Business changes when the bottom line is affected and negative change-over in entry-level management definitely does that.
One other thing I’ll add, and this is from experience: It used to be the big divide between – just for example here – a front line worker, a supervisor, and a manager was the educational ability for the administrative side of things, besides leadership and other skills. Throughout my career it changed that the biggest difference was being able to handle the massive amount of computer information involved in management, from analytics to data processing to communication. Something that has changed is with ubiquitous technology now, the base level general population computer skills is higher than it’s ever been, and you have more folks that can do that in a more traditional work/industrial/manufacturing environment, which gives you a bigger pool to look for those next level folks to move up. As always, the difference is want to, motivation, and applying themselves to do it and a company that actually give them a chance to do so.Report
Earlier in the thread I linked a New Republic article (CTRL-F for “Educated Fools”) that in part discussed the college education/employment problems from an unusual perspective on the left. Among his points was that the college educated have created a thick glass ceiling and seem determined to make sure that no ordinary working class people ever get promoted past a person with a degree. He brought that up because it’s political poison that would have been anathema to earlier generations of Democrats who worked their way up from the bottom, even at newspapers.
But he also mentions that some countries don’t have the same college/work problems as the US, and praises Denmark for getting things right regarding how government and business can make sure everybody is taught anything they need to succeed at any point in their careers. I’m not sure what Denmark actually does, but it seems to avoid a lot of the problems we’re facing in the US.
I of course have some problems with his article, such that he seems to think the large corporate/union model is the only thing out there, and he can’t shake off his own disdain for whole swaths of people, even as he points to that disdain as a horrible mistake and a doomed path for society to take.Report
Is Degree Creep even a hypothetical?
I’ve seen ads for entry level admin assistants demanding a degree.
As absurd as that is, I guess if you can pay an admin assistant with a degree as cheaply as a barista, why not?
If you have a line out the door of eager interns willing to work for free, why not weed them out by demanding degrees and certifications?Report
Well, if no one does anything to control the inflation of tuition, and instead the government just wipes out all the debt on a regular basis, why wouldn’t companies keep using higher education as a filter?Report
The moral hazard is why mass forgiveness should only be on the table as part of a comprehensive cost control plan. And I say that as someone who could support forgiveness, and definitely supports reinstating bankruptcy protection.
I see the moral indignation as no more compelling than the idea that we should just wipe the slate clean no questions ask. Both sides of that tend to turn the situation into a morality play when its really a matter of freeing up consumers and responsible allocation of the cost of higher ed.Report
I too support discharge in bankruptcy, as with other loans and debt. But, I feel there needs to be some other limiting factor going into loans, such as basing borrowing on expected future earnings.Report
Agreed. My opinion is that federal backing of loans needs to become conditioned on controls. I’m open minded on what the controls should be but there needs to be some connection between tuition and anticipated earnings.
The real answer to the dude in the video is to ask why universities are allowed to operate risk free as the beneficiaries of bad loans backed by the government. Alas, not clickbaity enough for modern political discourse.Report
It’s not the moral indignation that I find interesting, it’s Warren’s inability/unwillingness to address the actual problem.
Also, someone comes to her with a valid concern (I did the right thing, your plan spits in my face), and she basically told the guy, yep, I’m going to spit in your face.
I doubt that exchange is going to hurt her, much, but IMHO it explains why she isn’t doing better.Report
Warren seems bad at dealing with people who don’t share her basic assumptions about the world.Report
It’s hard to be all things to all people!
Personally, I think people carry a lot of priors into their views of Warren – east coast elite liberal academic female lawyer… – that hypersensitize people when they watch or interact with her. She’s checks a lot of the anti-Dem boxes.
BUT! that’s the world we live in, and more importantly, the world *she* is campaigning in. My own worries about her happened a couple months ago, when, under some pressure on healthcare reform, she went hard left rather than towards the center. I’ll also concede that I’m primed to view that move negatively in part because of all her crazy I’m Native American behavior.Report
It is hard to be all things to all people. This just seems like the kind of retail stuff I’d expect the nominee to be able to handle with some skill. You know turn it around, and say ‘yea, you did get screwed, but not by me. You got screwed by the system, the banks, the schools, the feds, my plan is to make sure that doesn’t happen anymore, not to your children or your children’s children. Our system puts people like you in an impossible position and I want to help.’
Instead its almost like she never really prepared for a hostile encounter with a person spouting a pretty routine appeal to emotion.Report
Exactly! I mean, come on, you had to know that guy* was going to show up at a rally at some point, with a friend and a camera. That’s candidate prep 101. If that’s what she got, Trump is going to eat her lunch, and steal her lunch money, and giver her an atomic wedgie after school.
*a person with an emotional appeal that flies in the face of one of your core positions.Report
The “Gotcha Question” is a great way to frame such things.
A question where the candidate says “that’s a great question, let me turn it around and say that *MY* policies will not only fix current problems but they would have *PREVENTED* the problem you’re talking about! Next question!” is a good question for the candidate.
A question that makes the candidate sputter and say “um, well, uh, jeez, yes but no” is framed as a gotcha question.
And the difference is not that the question can’t be answered. It can! It can be answered adeptly!
It’s when the candidate can’t answer it and fumbles that the question (and questioner) is shown as bad rather than that the candidate is shown as clumsy.
We know Joe the Plumber’s tax info.
We know that Ken Bone has a vasectomy.
What are we going to know about the guy who talked to Warren? Has he been doxed yet? Do we know where his kids went to college? What they majored in? What jobs they have (or don’t have) now?Report
See my response to Oscar and reply. I think if Warren were a politician who changed her answer depending on the speaker, you would accuse her of being a panderer.Report
Why would I take your silly response to Oscar seriously? If you can’t make a point without a hand wave reference to immutable characteristics you probably don’t have one, especially on something as fundamentally non-race related as this (and no, the disproportionate impact stuff is at best ancillary to the universal problem of student debt/financing higher ed).
I’ve said multiple times on OT I think Warren’s basic ‘two income trap’ thesis has a lot of merit but she can be quite woeful at selling it to people who aren’t already on the same page. This is example Z. If I was as myopic as you’re being I might ask why you don’t go hang out with your rich Brooklynite or SF friends for their kind words of affirmation about how Warren really handled it well and is a great retail politician, it’s everyone else who is wrong. But that would be stupid.Report
She did the same to black parents who came to her in Atlanta to push her on charter schools. She seemed proud to lecture them to their faces about how their kids should be in failing public schools. It didn’t play well.
Another thing that irritates me is her claim that she can wipe away student debt with a stroke of her pen, which is nonsense. Either Congress has to pass a spending bill to cover the costs of the debt, or she intends to somehow void a financial contract and rob the party that’s owed without due process of law.
And all of that still does nothing to fix the problem of skyrocketing costs.Report
Isn’t that the exact argument used about bankruptcy protection?Report
Only by idiots who think that being able to get a credit card a few years after a bankruptcy means that it’s not a hardship that will work against moral hazard.Report
I find this “I’m going to spit in your face” issue perplexing.
It is literally impossible to come up with a policy plan that pleases everyone and yet that is what we seemingly want from politicians. We want them to come up with policy plans that please 100 percent of the population regardless of ideological position or changes in history.
There is also a question of what “do the right thing” means here. Under what world view/guiding philosophy? Who gets to decide what doing the right thing is?
Another way to describe “spit in your face” is sticking to her ideological commitments and what she believes is the best solution to a real policy problem that could be a disaster down the line. I always thought we wanted politicians who kept to their guns. Or is that only when it is a middle-aged white dude with an R next to his name?Report
A) “Do the right thing” is, in this context, what the government and society suggest is the “right thing”. Not allowing your children to take on crushing debt at the start of their adult lives is typically considered a “good thing”, given the current state of affairs. A better thing might (MIGHT!) be having publicly funded higher education, but we don’t have that right now, so a parent working and saving so their child has better opportunities is unarguably a “good thing”.
B) No, no policy is going to make everyone happy, and yes, people like politicians who are not wishy washy, flippy floppy. That does not, however, mean that we need a progressive version of Trump who openly and loudly shits on everyone who disagrees with them. Part of being an effective politician is being able to employ diplomacy (a term with a number of definitions, but in this case, it means “the art of letting someone else have your way.”)
If Warren does not have a solid, diplomatic argument ready for why her debt forgiveness plan is not going to screw people over, or at the very least a good argument for why people like that guy should accept the solution as necessary, she’s not going to clear the primary.
And TBH, this goes back to what I feel is the biggest problem with the far sides of our politics (and hearkens back to my last post), in that, left or right, they are so utterly convinced of the ‘rightness’ of their positions that they have limited to no capability to argue for those positions to people who are not also convinced of the rightness of those positions. And thus they don’t even try, they just dismiss those people as irrelevant.Report
The debt forgiveness plan, in its scope, proposed procedural approach, and just general refusal to reckon with possible downstream effects (a problem hugely magnified by the scope and procedural approach) is what really got me off the Warren Wagon.
At some point having the right goal isn’t enough, and her debt cancellation plan is well past it.Report
On the other hand all candidates sometimes flub questions, and occasionally people insist that they flubbed a question when they really didn’t. So that part is pretty meh to me.Report
We are both asserting that degree creep is a symptom of an underlying problem, just different problems.
Right now, even with debt, degree holders on average earn more than non-degree holders.
Containing tuition cost would only add to the demand for degrees (That whole Econ 101 supply/ demand thing).
Unsurprisingly I see the underlying problem as one of demand for labor. People resort to increasingly desperate measures to somehow add to their market power, of which degree creep is only a symptom.Report
“Degree Creep” is a solution to a problem.Report
Thing is, ‘free’ college for all doesn’t help this either, absent any other kind of controls.Report
If by “this” you mean weak demand for labor, I agree.Report
Well, I’ve heard defenses of “Degree Creep” (though it certainly wasn’t called that). “It’s important that people demonstrate that they’ve mastered the skills required to get a degree in… um… Latinx Dance Theory.”
I think it’s more that employers want employees that are $40k in debt.Report
“It’s important that people demonstrate that they’ve mastered the skills required to get a degree in… um… Latinx Dance Theory.”
Said skills including, say, six hours of history, a dozen hours in some sort of science classes, a certain level of math, probably English composition, possibly some fluency in a foreign language, demonstrated ability to organize a small project, finish unsupervised work on time. As one acquaintance put it, demonstrate a certain mastery of “learning how to learn” across a range of subjects. That’s not the only important thing, but it’s an important thing.Report
I would question whether degrees signal “a certain mastery of ‘learning how to learn’ across a range of subjects” to the extent that they once did.
It’s not obvious that it does.Report
Degree Creep and some other important problems were touched on in an article yesterday in The New Republic. Educated Fools: Democrats misunderstand politics and social class.
I think some here will find it interesting. I’d say the author only partially “gets it”, but is much closer to the truth than the Democrats who are preaching that college education will solve everything. It won’t and it can’t, in part because if everyone is a manager then there’s nobody for them to manage.Report
The article is interesting, but ultimately has no proposals to put forward that would result in a material change in the lives of the noncollege educated working class. It dwells mostly on the “feels” of the working class who “feel ” left behind, maybe because they are.
I don’t blame him. Both parties have committed themselves to the idea that the fundamental relationship of labor to capital should be allowed to float freely with only a minor assist from the public, and only in cases of dire need.
The idea of an “industrial policy” which would require what he terms an investment in human capital in the form of across the board job skills training is something that was popular during the New Deal, but faded during the 70s.
As we’ve discussed many times here, there really isn’t any plausible way to create a world in which short order cooks, waiters,baristas, retail clerks and other non-college jobs would see a real wage increase.
Because the trump card in every one of these discussions is, “OK, faced with higher wage demands, we will just automate the damn job.”Report
ultimately has no proposals to put forward that would result in a material change in the lives of the noncollege educated working class
Hrm. So would a lockdown on immigration (illegal or otherwise) be likely to result in a material change in the lives of the noncollege educated working class?Report
You mean, like forcing fast food employers to hire only workers who hold a government issued card, thereby driving up the wage?
Maybe. Or maybe we would see ordering kiosks.Report
“Forcing”.
Isn’t that the law, like, right now?
I’d be down with discussions about how just because something is a law doesn’t make it moral or crap like that.
There are all kinds of immoral laws. We shouldn’t recognize the laws that are immoral.
But given that there are laws, I’m not sure that leaping to “forcing people to follow the law” is the best framing?
Though, seriously, there’s a lot of overlap with a handful of thoughts that I have on the law, culture, and morality here so maybe we have more overlap than I suspect.Report
But that’s what you were asking, right?
What if we rigorously enforced immigration law, such that it became nearly impossible for employers to hire anyone without a valid ID or green card?
What would you think would happen if we did that?
Would low wage employers just pay the higher wage, or would they do more automation and outsourcing?Report
Outsourcing to whom? Other companies also required to card their workers? I’m confused by this.
What would actually happen (if you could enforce this perfectly, and ceteris parabis) would be the cost of food would go up dramatically. Tomorrow. Today even. Food shortages in major metro areas tomorrow. Maybe riots.
There was a song of ice and fire quote about the poor and king bread.Report
Indeed.
Imagine a Day Without A Mexican.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377744/Report
No, what I was asking was whether putting the brakes on immigration (and certainly undocumented immigration) would give the noncollege educated working class additional leverage when it comes to wages.
Some of them would just pay the higher wage. Others would resort to automation and outsourcing. (Maybe they could open factories in Wuhan!)Report
I’m unclear on the difference between “putting the brakes on immigration” and “rigorously enforced immigration law, such that it became nearly impossible for employers to hire anyone without a valid ID or green card”.
But in either case, what we are talking about is just a mechanism whereby employers are compelled to pay more for labor.
Which, as a liberal I support!
But what would be wrong with doing it via minimum wages or stronger labor unions?
Or for that matter, we can effectively increase worker’s pay by giving them more public goods like free transportation and health care.
My point is, there are a lot of ways to increase the living standards of workers. Immigration restrictions seem like one of the least effective.Report
What you say reflects a deep flaw in liberal thought which also showed up in California’s AB5 bill that killed gig jobs. Minimum wage laws and labor unions only help a narrow class of worker. Is there a lawn-mowers union? Do people get paid by the hour to do yard work?
Much of the college educated left has apparently spent so much time reading Das Kapital that they don’t understand what the working class does for a living, apparently other than labor in garment factories lit by 18th century windows and whale oil lamps.
Offering them free stuff, like they’re on the dole, isn’t going to win any hearts and is rightly considered a vicious insult to their dignity.
If that’s the best liberal thinkers can come up with, they might as well write off the support of workers, including minority workers who, despite their long struggle from slavery to independence and equality, just had their neighborhood taken over by Guatemalans and their jobs taken by Hondurans, all because they voted for white liberals who think they should have to struggle harder.
If Democrats would let any actual working people or poor people’s voices be heard within the party, maybe these kind of catastrophic political blunders and easily avoided social disasters would be less common. I think that was the point that the New Republic article’s author was originally trying to zero in on.Report
From the standpoint of a job-creator, what’s the difference between the government saying “You gotta pay your workers more!” any different than the government saying “You can’t make a contract with those guys over there, but only these guys over here!”Report
And how do you make a homeowner pay more to get their lawn mowed?
You’re focused on the subset of working people that have corporate bosses. Lots of liberal Californians apparently share that problem.
Well not everybody runs in the lane that college educated liberal whites think that the “proletariat” should run in.Report
Would something like “E-Verify” qualify as rigorously enforcing immigration law?
But in either case, what we are talking about is just a mechanism whereby employers are compelled to pay more for labor.
In this case, the mechanism is “following the law in the first place”.
But what would be wrong with doing it via minimum wages or stronger labor unions?
If you don’t want to enforce laws, I’m not sure that adding more laws will help (and the minimum wage laws aren’t helpful for undocumented dreamers wanting to work anyway). As for labor unions, what percentage of union coverage currently covers “noncollege educated working class”?
“Or for that matter, we can effectively increase worker’s pay by giving them more public goods like free transportation and health care.”
Free child care, provided by undocumented immigrants, could add a lot more people into the workforce! Our GDP could skyrocket!
Immigration restrictions seem like one of the least effective.
Surprisingly, it’s actually pretty effective!
If I linked to a recent government report showing that, would you read it? Well, here. (Hey, you even left a comment in the comment thread there!)Report
Well do you want to increase worker’s pay and living standards, or not?
Labor unions are highly effective at raising wages, as are minimum wage laws and public goods.
Whereas immigration restrictions are a clumsy backhanded way of restricting supply requiring massive amounts of enforcement.
I mean, if I replaced “green card” with “union card” would you feel the same way?Report
Well, what documentation do you have that raising the minimum wage will actually result in increased pay and living standards? I mean, if I had a report that showed that increased minimum wages result in fewer hours given to employees and that resulted in them getting additional jobs, I think we’d agree that the increased minimum wage backfired, right?
As for unions, I am still uncertain as to what percentage of union coverage currently covers “noncollege educated working class”?
(And I still don’t know how setting it up so that there will be fewer “scabs” bussed in is a backhanded way to help union workers. It seems a straightforward way to help them.)Report
Well, we’ve already agreed that higher wages will result in fewer hours, so it stands to reason that immigration restrictions will have the same effect.
Let me put it another way:
Aside from immigration restriction, do you have any OTHER proposals for increasing wages or living standards for workers?
Or is that like, your only proposal?Report
Well, we’ve already agreed that higher wages will result in fewer hours, so it stands to reason that immigration restrictions will have the same effect.
No, we haven’t agreed with that. We agreed that a legislated minimum wage has, in fact, resulted in such things.
The wacky thing about labor shortages is that it results in higher wages without cuts in the hours.
Making it so that scabs aren’t available to management actively helps union members.
Who knew?Report
Aren’t you the guy who posted stuff about self service kiosks and such?
I think it should be noncontroversial that higher wages drives a corresponding push towards automation and offshoring.
It just seems weird, this fixation with one and only one tool to increase wages.
It just seems like raising the living standards of workers isn’t really the goal.Report
Yeah, and how those popped up in response to stuff like #FightFor15.
You know what’s weird about management organically not being able to hire scabs when the workforce gets tight?
Here’s an article from May 2019 from the New York Times.
Here’s an article from May 2019 from CNBC.
Here’s an article from December 2019 from Axios.
I already pointed out what happened in response to some of the solutions you’ve pointed out.
And I still don’t know what percentage of union coverage currently covers “noncollege educated working class”.Report
What you’re calling for is for the government to take command of the marketplace in labor and artificially constrict it so as to drive up prices.
This is like the drug war on steroids.
We can see right now that in order to actually enforce this, the government has to assume massive police powers, everything from confiscating property along the border, to constructing a 1500 mile wall, to sending teams of agents out into the community to sweep up people to then housing them in concentration camps. Along the way it has to create a national database of records and then a system to track and record every change of job and keep constant surveillance to ensure that no one is cheating.
And after all this,it has barely made a dent in the supply of undocumented labor!
And yet, you casually suggest “locking down” immigration, both legal and illegal.
For a guy who is generally skeptical of government power, this seems bizarre.Report
And what *YOU* are arguing is (complete misstatement of your argument)!
What do you say to that?
Anyway, while I’d love to discuss whether enforcing the law artificial constriction of the workpool, I’m always confused when lefties take the side of Capital in these arguments.
WON’T ANYONE THINK OF THE FACTORY OWNERSReport
You literally argued for “a lockdown on immigration”.
If you have a solution that does it without massive government power, this would be a good place to enlighten us.Report
The government already *HAS* that power, Chip.
I’m not arguing for the government to acquire anything it doesn’t already have.
And, get this, I’ve even shown a number of sources that demonstrate what I’m arguing as well as sources that demonstrate that what you’re arguing for doesn’t work.
If you’d like to argue for giving the Federal Government less power, I’d happily entertain the argument, though.Report
Right, and all the things I mentioned- property confiscation, surveillance, sweeps, internment camps- are powers that the government is currently using in its effort to take command of the marketplace for labor.
This is what you are proposing. To continue with this exercise of massive government power.
And it still isn’t enough to “lockdown immigration”.Report
I’ll compromise and say “now that workers are actually getting paid more, let’s keep the status quo”.Report
I’m always confused when lefties take the side of Capital in these arguments.
I think this is him trying to be clever, trying to get us to recognize that yes, this thing that we say we don’t want is actually the direct result of the policies that we say we want. You have to imagine a sort of smarmy tone, kind of “well gee, this is what you asked for, that the market would make it clear when someone’s labor, and their life, was not of value to society, right?”Report
A study of decades of labor unions in Appalachia, conducted by an imminent communist academic at UK, concluded that the labor unions did absolutely nothing to increase wages in coal mines, or in coal mining regions. He concluded that the only effect was lots and lots of dead owners, managers, and workers due to all the violence.
He couldn’t find any evidence that the industry’s wages increased any more than they would have due to market pressures, or at any rate that was faster than completely non-unionized industries. He found that mining wages still just followed the law of supply and demand, but with lots of extra murders.
New data coming out of Seattle and other cities that raised their minimum wages has shown a corresponding drop in jobs and lots of closed restaurants. There’s only so much people will pay for a burger or taco before they decide it’s cheaper to make dinner at home.
I’ll put this in SJW minority terms to see if it resonates a bit better with an example instead of a nebulous “working class person”.
The trouble with unrestricted immigration is that you’re making American workers, many of whose ancestors used to be slaves, compete with Guatemalan immigrants who are happy to sleep five to a room and eat cheaper than Irish living in Victorian slums.
You can mandate whatever wages you want, but the Guatemalan is going to work harder for less pay, or work extra off the books, or find little private sector niches to fill (like ticket scalping, cleaning gutters, and selling flowers), and he’ll work three jobs. Many of them are used to fighting for scraps at the bottom rungs of a racist society (which is the norm down there). But the people they displace are the ones who’ve been religiously voting for Democrats for generations in this society.
At some point those long-suffering American minorities might ask you about that job they felt they were unfairly denied because of white racism, and you’ll have to explain that you gave all those jobs to Manuel, Ortiz, and Juanita to prove you weren’t racist – and sorry about their continued run of bad luck.
This kind of thing can be a delicate issue when you have a “diverse” society. It’s one thing for Japan to decide to allow some Koreans in, because the Koreans aren’t displacing some prior subjugated or disadvantaged group. But do the Democrats, who have some “history” of racial oppression, get to decide, for blacks, to replace blacks with “less problematic” – and much more powerless people? Does giving away someone else’s pie perhaps reflect an enormous sense of entitlement?
And note that upper-middle class and upper class whites aren’t inviting the Guatemalans to live in their neighborhoods, they’re inviting them to live in the other people’s neighborhoods, and then patting themselves on the back for it.
One could view it almost as some dystopian future where rich elites in immaculate white suits pay to watch poor minority groups fight each other in cage matches – for food, and then congratulate themselves on how they’re providing sports jobs in the inner city.
Some of those poor folks, who’ve been busting their butts and fighting the man for a couple of centuries, might wonder why they don’t get to wear the fancy white suits. If the only response was “We raised the minimum wage and gave you free bus service!”, then don’t expect their continued loyal support on election day.
And for the non-SJW folks, remember that the same argument applies to poor whites, that trailer park trash you always make fun of, and and many other groups the left dismisses and disparages.
As with Europe, many working class people feel they’re being displaced and replaced by waves of low-skilled immigrants, kicked out of their jobs and priced out of their own homes to make way for workers who are less insistent about defending worker’s rights.
Some dismiss this as nativist, nationalist paranoia. Somebody might ask some Native Americans if that kind of thing can actually happen.Report
“One could view it almost as some dystopian future where rich elites in immaculate white suits pay to watch poor minority groups fight each other in cage matches”
What if I told you Neo, that the poor immigrant and the poor American could join together and demand equality with the rich elite?
Take the red pill and find out…Report
George, that kind of claim needs a link to the study.Report
Which claim? The study of union mine wages was published by the Univ of KY several decades ago, and the author said he shocked by his own results (as he was a communist and had been convinced he’d prove the opposite).
Or just ask yourself if the unions were so great for Appalachian miners, why was the region so poor the whole time? What kept mining wages as high as it was wasn’t unions restricting the supply of labor, it’s that nobody really wanted to move to the hills and work in a coal mine. There was no big supply of eager labor to restrict when folks looking for work would rather just move to Cincinnati, Oak Ridge, or Detroit.Report
Yes, that link! Please (it’d be interesting, if nothing else).Report
I don’t have a link because I read about it on a dead-tree publication back in the days of Arpanet. ^_^
It was a book, though, and I don’t recall that anybody really challenged his conclusions, I assumed because nobody could outflank him on the left and because the UMWA was dying out anyway.
Googling around really quickly, I didn’t find it (but it must be out there somewhere), but I did find plenty of articles on the economics of coal in the region, such as a QZ article on coal an Appalachian poverty.
Unions are only mentioned in the article mostly in passing, which is one indicator that they weren’t very important to the great economic picture. More noted was that Appalachia focused on one industry instead of building a robust and diverse range of industries, and such areas tend to fair poorly.
One thing that keeps wages high in many areas is that you have to pay workers a lot because they have so many other options they can pursue. That’s not true in Appalachia, where the other choices is perhaps logging, or nowadays working at Walmart.
And unlike the big three in Detroit, unions couldn’t lock up the supply of labor because the companies couldn’t lock up the supply of coal. If wages at one operation got too high, anybody could start a competing non-union mine two hills away and split the extra profit with his workers (the extra profit coming from the higher coal prices due to higher union wages). My dad did that one time, hiring his friends to help him work the mine.
Once more advanced mining equipment took hold, unionization didn’t matter much because the capital costs shot up but the labor requirements plummeted.
One argument might be that the more unionized areas in Pennsylvania paid more, but again, everybody in Pennsylvania got paid more, union or not, miner or not, because Pennsylvania had a more diverse and dynamic economy where people could farm, work in steel mills, or any number of things.
It all comes down to how much you have to pay folks, whether local or luring them to the region, to go down in a dangerous hole, and whether you can make money at that labor cost. Unions don’t really change the basics of that equation.Report
Well, the author is a labor lawyer, and I got the impression that he really didn’t think much outside the management/labor paradigm of his likely cases. To him the problem is getting a high-school graduate past a college-educated HR department, whereas most business don’t even have an HR department, they’ve got some owner named Frank or Francine who also locks up and dumps the trash.
College degrees aren’t needed for the vast majority of US jobs, and certainly not required for starting a business. It should be obvious that since in prior decades almost all non-professional (doctor, lawyer) jobs were done quite well by people without degrees, that the degree isn’t what enabled wide scale job performance. For some reason the US is fixated on the four-year degree route, but that isn’t true for much of Europe.
I did agree with his complaint that the Democrats with degrees were stealing the moral high ground and sending a message to the non-college educated that they were essentially worthless, or at least had no future in America, but he couldn’t really seem to acknowledge that anything but racism inclined them toward Trump. There is certainly a message problem confronting Democrats, since if they associate themselves entirely in workers minds with Wanda in HR, they’re not going to get many more votes from the shop floor.
And I should remind folks that LA is currently in mourning for a heroic non-college educated man whose personal $13 million dollar helicopter crashed on the way to his sports academy.Report
“sending a message to the non-college educated that they were essentially worthless”
Isn’t this what the free market is telling us?
When the very best wage that a free worker can negotiate is below what a robot or worker in Malaysia costs, isn’t it perfectly true that the skill of the American human is essentially worthless?Report
I spent decades working for non-college educated people. They hired engineers to handle the drudge work of designing things, and accountants to manage the millions rolling in from Fortune 500 companies, while they built mansions next to golf courses as tax shelters.
One of them owned the largest house boat in the state until railroad magnate RJ Corman built a bigger one. RJ Corman, by the way, barely even made it through high school. His only connection with college was that he let Kentucky coaches fly on his business jets.
People without college degrees can just focus on getting rich, hiring college grads to do the tedious work while they make the big decisions.Report
When the very best wage that a free worker can negotiate is below what a robot or worker in Malaysia costs, isn’t it perfectly true that the skill of the American human is essentially worthless?
Chip is someone holding you hostage and this is your way of calling for help?Report
As it has been since man started using tools, the answer to that question depends on the skills the human possesses.
You repeatedly come back to this and act as if the most basic of skills (the kind that should be easily mastered by adolescents) should somehow still afford a functional human a middle class existence?
But why? Why should those with level 0 skills have an equal claim to the things those with more developed skills have?
I could see a claim that an older person, who had once had the skills that were regarded as ‘Middle Class” when s/he was in their prime, has some claim to a measure of that lifestyle. But that scale slides with time and advancement.
I would avoid being critical of the labor market leaving people behind, and instead save your criticism for a public education system that fails to keep pace.*
*One of the things I do in my off time is tutor basic comp sci for high school kids. I am more than a little disturbed by the quality of the teaching these kids are getting in their classes, and that such classes are still not only optional, but also considered advanced.Report
I was responding to George’s statement that :
“Democrats with degrees were stealing the moral high ground and sending a message to the non-college educated that they were essentially worthless”.
Yet, that’s exactly what the marketplace, and you and I both, are saying.
It isn’t elitist Democrats, or snobby college professors saying this. It is a simple brutal fact of the modern world.
We can argue about how to fix it, but first we have to confront the truth of the matter.Report
There is a bit of tragic overdeterminization in sawing off every rung on the skills ladder below minimum wage and then turning around and calling the people who don’t have those jobs “worthless”.Report
-double comment-Report
But that is decidedly NOT what the marketplace has said. It has said that you need to have skills that are not simply the level 0 basic skills if you want to access the MC.
Trust me, the carpenters, and electricians, and plumbers, and roofers, and drywallers who are currently working on my house are making middle class wages (or better), and I doubt any of them need a college degree to do that.Report
Well right, not ALL noncollege educated trades have been deskilled.
I was thinking more of the other non-college educated such as retail workers, food service workers, manufacturing workers.
Speaking of the trades you mention; There is a vast gulf between the trades which technology has not de-skilled such as electricians, and those it has, such as drywallers.
Drywallers are what used to be plasterers, which was a unionized skilled trade commensurate with a middle class income. A plasterer earned about the same as a carpenter or plumber.
But the technology of drywall sucked all the skill out of it, and today a lot of them are pieceworkers, barely above the completely unskilled day laborers.
In other words, there are vast swaths of labor in America whose market value is what you are calling level 0 basic skills. Its entirely possible that within a short time truck drivers will meet the same fate.
And again, this isn’t just something a coastal elitist says. This is the verdict of the marketplace.Report
Drywalling is actually a skill (I can do it, poorly, which is why I pay someone else to do it). Drywallers make, on average, $20-$25/hr (not piece work).Report
Yes. The fact that you, me, or anyone standing on a streetcorner can do it without any special training is the point.
It may not be Level 0 skill, but its getting there.Report
No, that is not what I said. Drywalling is a skill, it takes training and practice. It is a relatively easy skill to learn, but it’s still a skill.
It is also physically demanding, so even if you have some skill with tape and mud, you still have to be strong enough to haul sheet rock around and hang it on a wall or ceiling.
It also requires knowledge of fire codes for commercial and residential properties, and why kinds of sheet rock go where, and what, if any, treatments they need.
Hence that knowledge, skill, and the physical demands, command a middle class wage.
Not as much as, say, an electrician or a plumber, but more than a kid running the fast food counter.
Seriously, where do you get from my previous comment that drywalling required no training or skill? The fact that I said I could do it? Yes, I can (poorly) because I worked on jobs hanging drywall and people taught me the basics. Turns out it’s a perishable skill.Report
We’re getting a bit off track;
The original point here was that George and the article he linked to, asserted that liberals were disrespecting noncollege educated people.
My point is that it is technology and the marketplace which is posing a mortal threat to many jobs, and “disrespect” is a distraction.
When we talk about “the kid running the fast food counter” we are looking at a job which itself was a middle class skillset before technology sucked out the skills of knowing how to cook food.
I could assert that even today running a fast food counter requires a lot of skill, but why bother? The marketplace has told us what the value of this labor is.
And the article in question doesn’t dispute this or offer any idea of how to improve it.
So sniveling about “disrespect” from college educated liberals misses the point.Report
I’ll give you a few personal anecdotes from one gas station. The tow-truck driver/repo man I occasionally hang out with makes $150 to $200K a year. He thinks it’s hilarious when all those college educated people he tows assume he’s a lowly serf. They have no clue that they’ll never make as much as he does.
The gas station’s clerks are quite a contrast. They had degrees in marketing, astronomy, and one had an undergraduate history degree and a masters degree in political science.
One of the regulars was paying uneducated kids $80K a year to paint horse fences for him. He’d built a tractor that straddled the fences that was equipped with photoelectric sensors and an array of spray guns, so it was just driving around and letting the smart-printer do its job. He made so much money that the only limit to his business was finding people who knew how to drive a tractor. They don’t teach that in college.
The average lineman, out there in their bucket truck, makes about $80K a year. OIl rig workers make about $100K. Elevator mechanics make about $90k, and HVAC folks make about $70K. The average person at Toyota makes about $80K, which is not lost on the locals here. I worked with one young Toyota line manager on an engine test project who was pulling down well over $100K (lots of overtime) and he quipped “My only job before this one was cleaning out gutters!”
One of my friends didn’t like college and instead spent his money on a special Florida school to become an offshore deep-sea commercial diver. They make an insane amount of money.
Another didn’t like school at all, dropped out, and started doing regular shovel and weed-eater work on horse farms. In a little over a year he was in Ireland making over $100K, then he was lured to New Zealand by an even more lucrative offer, before finally returning for even more money. His college friends, still working on their degrees, wouldn’t hang out with him because they couldn’t afford to eat at the four-star places he hung out.
When you go shopping, at places like Walmart, Best Buy, or even your local gas station, get to know your clerks. A surprising number of them have college degrees. My company, the one run by non-college educated millionaires, hired quite a lot of college educated people as electricians, who had degrees in things like sports marketing.
According to Moneywatch, one in seven waiters and one in six bartenders have bachelors degrees.
It’s not the sharp economic dividing line that universities so often claim it is. They’re selling a product and marketing a lifestyle, and although they’re correct in many cases (STEM, business, highly specialized professions, etc), there are some people who aren’t going to benefit all that much from it.Report
So…rather than pay a skilled painter to paint his fence, he invented a machine that does the work, and only needs a raw unskilled laborer to drive it along?Report
Yep, and the “unskilled” laborer who has the skills to drive, operate, and maintain a very sophisticated machine was getting paid about $80K. That might because the guy who developed it needed people who knew how to drive a tractor, and could focus well enough to not crash all the fancy automated painting gear right into the fence or something.
So right off the bat you’re looking for the pool of people who can drive large tractors, which limits the pool to people whose family probably own large tractors, or who already work for such families and probably paid very good money to do so. In horse country, it might take $80K to lure any of them in.
I know plenty of people who were lured away from college with big paychecks because they had “mad skillz”, some of them just management and leadership skills.
On the other hand, I used to live with a house full of geology majors who were barely sober for four years, yet who got huge job offers upon graduation. Lots of companies are desperate for geologists, and mining graduates get higher initial offers than Harvard Law graduates.
That’s supply and demand, and when you look at someone who has yet another English Lit degree with a minor in Spanish, you’re looking at a huge imbalance of supply and demand.
I had a housemate who got his masters in Renaissance literature from Morehead University, which is on down the highway from Eastern Kentucky University. He was smart as a whip, vacationed in the Czech Republic, and would’ve fit right in at Berkeley, but I think he became a preacher because there’s not much else to do with that degree from that institution. I mean, when was the last time a Kentucky company needed to throw a team of Renaissance literature experts at a project? Painting horse fences in a single afternoon, on the other hand…Report
Here in California, we get those tractor drivers from Guatemala who do it a lot cheaper.
You should suggest that to your friend.Report
There you go again, assuming that something is low skill when George just explained that there is more involved than just keeping a a tractor moving in a straight line.
What do you have against the skill sets needed to do a job evolving? You probably hate that auto mechanics have to know much more about electronics and computers than they did back in the 70’s. Or that engineers and architects don’t need to master the drafting skills we once had to?
PS Driving a tractor can also be quite a challenge, depending on the terrain. I wouldn’t let someone haul up and start driving an expensive and powerful tractor around just because they managed to pass a driving test.Report
A lot of farming on any kind of scale, tractor use now involves using things like on-board GPS topography to lay out your fields. Like everything else, technology ingrains in everything.Report
My point is twofold:
One, technology is generally lowering the amount of skill needed to do any given task.
Two, this happens unevenly and unpredictably; Plasterers became obsolete but not plumbers for example; Manufacturing can be offshored to cheaper locales, but agriculture work can’t;
I don’t object to job skills evolving, I just don’t see a broad rise in real wages and living standards and job security; I see stagnating wages and a surplus of replacement workers.Report
The basic problem is, a factory that in the past required a staff of thousands can now be run by dozens. Yes, those are probably good jobs that pay okay, but their are hundred times fewer than before.
I once had drinks with a crane operator who had a higher salary than I do. I have no doubt he was worth it. Operating one of those big cranes is not something you want an idiot to do. You certainly wouldn’t want me doing it. I’m clumsy and weird.
That said, how many such cranes are in operation at one time? How much employment can that provide, versus manufacturing?
It’s dismal out there, and for a very strange reason: one person can now do the job of hundreds, and the ratio keeps growing for more and more types of jobs.
“We’ll innovate out of the problem,” says the guy who reads about economics on Reddit.
No we won’t. Innovation got us here.
On the one hand, efficiency is pretty great. On the other — well — things are going to get tricky.
“People will use their free time to come up with novel ideas.”
Sure, a few will, but how many novel ideas are there really? How many jobs will be created?
/me looks around
Well, I see Uber created jobs. Sort of. Maybe. Those resemble “jobs” in some way. The Amazon warehouses seems busy.
Anyway, something will happen. In some ways it will be like what happened before. In some ways it will be different.Report
Here’s how I would put it: Lets consider some metrics of prosperity and compare previous generations to ours.
Compared to your parents/grandparents, can you:
Accumulate enough capital to buy a house at an earlier age?
Work fewer hours per week?
Take longer vacations?
Retire at a younger age?
For average person of the WWII and Boomer generations, the answer was unequivocally yes.
For the average person of the present generation, the answer is no.
Yet, the average worker today is several times more productive than his parents or grandparents.
How is this possible?
We are producing more wealth, yet somehow have less economic security to show for it.Report
But this is how it has always been. Deskilling/automation/etc. never happen evenly, nor should they, innovation always happens in fits and spurts.
Our problem is not that we are innovating ourselves into trouble, it’s that we are not balancing the equation. We are really, really bad about keeping the workforce informed* & trained on what is needed in the market right now, and in the next 5/10/ 20/40 years. If we take the claim about Denmark at face value, then maybe that is what we need to do, focus on a commitment to lifetime education that is less about the sheepskin and more about constantly retraining the workforce.
Here is my bet (and maybe someone already did this). If you poll people, which do you think they would be more willing to accept:
A) Public funding of 4 year degrees regardless of major
B) Public funding of job training programs at local community colleges
My bet is B will get a lot more support, because what people envision with A is kids getting 4 year degrees in subjects that are not easily translatable to the current market, and those kids being unemployable at a level that will allow them to ‘pay back’ the cost of that education, whereas B is envisioned as cheaper and gets more people working faster because it doesn’t waste time and money teaching useless topics. It’s also easier to turn a displaced worker around with such a program.
Personally, I’d go for a variant of B, the public funding of training programs and college prep programs at community colleges (the kind I took, that get you through all the common 101 & 201 classes), with some rather robust cost controls. I’d be very resistant to giving the Academia any more public funding (beyond what state schools already get), because as a sector, they have proven horribly irresponsible with it. Additionally, I don’t want the answer to simply be “Bachelors for Everyone!”.
Regardless, it’s not about innovation devaluing certain kinds of labor here and there, it’s about us not doing much of anything to make sure those impacted negatively by such innovations can get put back to work somehow.
*If people are getting education and training that does not allow them to enter the workforce at a level commensurate with the effort of that training, then they are ill-informed about what the market needs, and frankly, a lot of that is on the Academy.Report
Except this time, the technological change isn’t producing the benefit of higher living standards.Report
The hell it isn’t.Report
If you ask the Gen Xers and Millennials those four questions I asked above, how do you think the majority would answer?Report
That is some pretty specific, and very modern, metrics to judge by. But hey, let’s look at that.
It’s a bit of a mixed bag, and I can’t help but wonder how much of the whole delaying a house or family has less to do with labor compensation and more to do with younger people being unwilling to move out of urban (expensive!!!) centers.
I mean, we’ve just had a very good decade, and I am inclined to think that the case for income inequality is overstated.
So if things are good, why are younger people saying they are bad? Maybe because that is the constant refrain they hear from the media? Couple that with the urban real estate issues and sure, I can see why they think it’s a problem, but is the solution to jack up wages, or is the solution to fix the housing issues?
Because it seems to me that if you don’t fix the housing issues, the sole effect of jacking up wages will be to cause rents & real estate prices to spike accordingly.Report
I have nothing to add, other than that I love the photo that goes along with this piece!Report
Metropolis is visually a personal favorite, so I really loved using it hereReport
Normally I only believe in conspiracy theories on alternate Tuesdays, but I’ll make an exception for Bolton’s book today.
Given the speed with which things show up in Library Genesis, and the nature of some of those things, it is clear that the non-fiction publishers leak like sieves. That the Russians have cracked those computer systems is a reasonable explanation. My first thought when the NYTimes got a leaked draft of Bolton’s manuscript was that it was from the Russians by some route or another.Report
I suspect it was leaked either by Bolton’s team themselves or whoever in NSC was vetting it.Report
So do I, in reality, but from time to time it’s pleasant to contemplate a conspiracy theory.Report
I wonder if the pleasure of conspiracy is contemplating a world in which those who run it are capable of such skill and planning.Report
I agree. More than any of the actors in play, Bolton had the most to gain from leaking the excerpts. I think the bigger worry for McConnell is that Trump legal *very likely* had the book and failed to disclose its contents to the Senate Impeachment team. It’s rare that McConnell is left holding the bag. He can’t be happy about that.Report
The only people with copies of Bolton’s book were the government folks conducting a security review. One of those people is Lt. Col Vindman’s brother.Report
Just the editing process with publisher and gov’t vetting alone there are hundreds of people with access to that, not to mention whatever circle Bolton worked with to write it, assuming he wrote it himself or with a ghost writer and didn’t farm it out entirely.Report
Unless you actually know NSC staff – and have convinced them to break the law by telling you who has the book copies, that’s pure supposition as to who has it. Yes, its probably a tight circle at the NSC since there’s usually less then a dozen people working any one portfolio. And yes, there are news reports it got copied as part of the clearance process when it shouldn’t have. But just because you WANT there to be a Deep State that is sabotaging your very best President doesn’t mean there IS a Depp State sabotaging your very best President.Report
Maybe Bolton will testify if Schiff promises to invade Iran.Report
Thinking about The West Wing today:
and
Sadly, I can’t find a clip of this scene:
JOSH
You knew we were for free trade. You knew it when you endorsed us five years ago.
PARSONS
Yeah, ’cause you told us we might lose old economy jobs – shoe manufacturing – to some dirt-poor country, but if we trained ourselves we’d get better jobs. Now they’re being vacuumed out of here, too.
JOSH
We’re going to fight for more job training, more transition assistance…
PARSONS
I have members on their third and fourth career. What are they supposed to train for now, nuclear physics? Cello playing? Or should they just give up and bag groceries for minimum wage?Report
I’m on my 3rd career and I’m only in my 40’s. Why is this a problem?Report
I too am on my third-forth career at around the same age, but the question might be better framed as How often have you needed to be retrained due to gov’t actions and not a desire to move on?
I don’t honestly know if it makes a difference, but there is a feeling there of things not going well. Of not having any say in your future. The wife and I were talking about the various proposals to remove the dams on the Snake river in eastern WA, (Inslee got an appropriation to study this) and what that would do to the areas economy. We both grew up in rural college towns, and have a bit of knowledge about the effects things like this can have. And if the response is simply to retrain the locals, who might have no/little imput on this, it is a recipe for disaster for the local community. Those third and forth careers don’t help, as everyone is now job searching.Report
This is a solid point. So I will qualify my previous:
Switching careers multiple times is not a bad thing. Being forced to switch careers multiple times is indicative of a failure. A whole community or demographic being forced to change careers is a systemic failure.Report
Yeah, you’d think that those people on The West Wing would have a better attitude.Report