Ordinary Bookclub: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (Chapters 65-77)
Okay. Welcome to the Ordinary Bookclub. We’re reading Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. Our kickoff post is here, we review Chapters 1-5 here, we review chapters 6-15 here, we review chapters 16-25 here, we review chapters 26-35 here, we review chapters 36-46 here, and we review chapters 47-64 here.
This week we resolved to read chapters 65-77. These brief summaries are probably going to miss stuff and put emphasis on the wrong stuff and, probably, miss the point from time to time. When I’m wrong, please call me out in the comments.
One of the things we have decided that we want to start doing is discussing the various puzzles the chapters throw up for us. When a major piece of information is withheld, it’s (usually) because it’s an opportunity for the reader to do some light detective work and figure out what is REALLY going on (for example, when we were asking “who left Harry the notes in chapter 13?” that was something that was revealed in chapter 14…). It can difficult to discuss some of the puzzles in this story without discussing major events happening in future chapters so if you want to discuss something with a major plot point: please rot13 it. That’s a simple encryption that will allow the folks who want to avoid spoilers (or premature answers to puzzles) to avoid them and allow the people who want to argue them to argue them.
Now that the boilerplate is out of the way, let’s get started.
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Chapter 65: Harry explains about how lying compounds itself to Hermione. They discuss phoenix theory and why people who have phoenixes on their shoulders aren’t taken more seriously by people who don’t have them. (This section was pretty good and it strikes me as having important moral lessons for later.) People are noticing that whatever happened on the day that Harry had Fawkes ride on his shoulder has changed him. Professor McGonagall brings Harry in and explains that Hagrid is getting his job back and wants to know if they can tell Hagrid that Harry was instrumental in proving Hagrid’s innocence. As it turns out, given that the spell they found on the Sorting Hat that proves Hagrid’s innocence is one that requires knowing Parseltongue to find in the first place, Harry doesn’t want Hagrid to know because, hey, knowing Parseltongue is something that Harry wants to keep under his hat. So to speak. Which is kind of disappointing to Minerva because James and Lily loved Hagrid and Harry… well, Harry doesn’t see much use for the big lug. Anyway, Harry wants his day lengthened because there’s a lot of stuff that he needs to do and there are only but so many hours in the day (and he and Neville are going to learn how to duel). Oh, and Quirrell woke up. Harry goes to visit and Quirrel changes into a snake and they have a Parseltongue conversation so they can have a relatively private conversation. Harry explains to Quirrell that Dumbledore grounded him and he’s stuck at Hogwart’s for a good, long while. Quirrell explains that the best way to reverse that isn’t to convince Dumbledore that Voldemort wasn’t the one who busted out Bellatrix Black from Azkaban but for Harry to be seen to defeat the Dark Lord a second time. Easy Peasy. Anyway, they conclude the Parseltongue conversation and Harry shows him the deck of cards and they hammer out that, yep, it contains a portkey but, as far as Quirrell can tell, it looks like it’d take Harry to London rather than America. Bummer. You can’t be too careful and you shouldn’t be so trusting.
Chapter 66: Ravenclaws have the weakness of never feeling like they have enough information to make a call. Harry hammered out within himself that the information that he didn’t have was either: There is not a Dark Lord out there and they’d have to “create” one and “defeat” it, which was too crazy to do OR there was a Dark Lord out there, which means that wandering down the garden path of pretending to create a Dark Lord was even dumber than that. So he goes to Quirrell’s office and they have another short Parseltongue conversation. Harry tells Quirrell that he declines, Quirrell argues against him, but not TOO hard, and then we’re off discussing other things. Hermione discusses with some Sunshine soldiers that Harry and Neville are going to be learning how to duel from Cedric Diggory. And we see that Harry and Neville and Cedric are practicing dueling with ankle weights, wrist weights, and other wearable weights.
Chapter 67: We open with a map/territory joke. I love those. Quirrell is well enough to oversee the armies fighting and this time the battles are taking place in the upper reaches of Hogwarts in the parts of the castle that change all the time. Draco meditates upon how, sometimes, you and yours aren’t going to be in first place. (Don’t be in third, though.) Hermione wants to defeat Harry herself and not team up with Draco. Which, let’s face it, is foolhardy. Oh, the reason that they were practicing with weights? It’s because the Chaos Army is wearing armor. It doesn’t count as a muggle artifact if wizards wore it! Anyway, Dragon positioned itself on the other side of Chaos from Sunshine. Harry and Neville take on Sunshine and, wouldn’t you know it, Neville has started looking good to some of the non-protagonist level girls in the Sunshine army. (If you’ve never compared pictures of Matthew Lewis, the guy who played Neville in the movies, at age 12 to him at age 23, I imagine it’s that sort of thing. Only accelerated.) Daphne Greengrass challenges Neville to a duel and he steps up in a way that sorta justifies the whole thing. Anyway, Hermione and Harry have a monologue contest and Harry is within acceptable tolerances for being insufferable. Draco, by comparison, figures out that they’re fighting against armored soldiers (he loses anyway). Hermione gets put to somnium by Harry.
Chapter 68: Harry vs. Draco and Hermione is officially not a fair fight. We get into the whole issue of “there are a million ways to ALMOST do something, but relatively few ways to actually do it”. They’re taking 8 Chaos soldiers from Harry (including at least one Lieutenant) and giving them to Dragon/Sunshine in order to give Harry a bigger challenge. “This, Mr. Potter, I tell you in my capacity as your professor: For you to learn to your full potential, you must exercise your full abilities and not hold back for any reason – particularly not childish frets over what your friends might think!” Which, Hermione realizes, demotes her from “General Of An Army Of Equals” to “Accessory of Protagonist”. She notices that when Hermione beats Harry, that’s something for Harry to overcome and when Harry beats Hermione… well, of freaking COURSE he did. Hermione goes to Professor McGonagall and Dumbledore and explains that she has noticed that Harry has changed since the day of the phoenix. Dumbledore explains that Harry has grown up and Hermione needs to be Harry’s friend. Hermione wants to be “Hermione” and not “Harry’s (whatever)”. It’s not that she doesn’t want to be a friend to Harry. It’s that she wants to be Hermione first. Hey, why can’t SHE be a hero? Dumbledore explains that being a hero kinda sucks and way back when the whole Grindelwald thing was going on, he’d have rather been support for the hero than the hero. He points out that everybody knows that Dumbledore is the big hero and fewer know about his friends who died helping him… but his friends ARE remembered. He pretty much comes out and tells Hermione that she can’t be a hero. We get into House Theory for how people might fail to be who they are. We hammer out that life is not fair. Dumbledore tells Hermione that Harry is destined to have to fight someone and it is NOT Bellatrix Black. The chapter ends with her seeing a flash of gold.
Chapter 69: Hermione hears the call of the phoenix and chases it… but doesn’t see it. She DOES find some bullies, though and learns that, huh, fighting against Harry Potter and losing all the time gives somewhat decent skills anyway. Seriously, she takes out the three bullies handily. Hermione talks to Harry about Hero Theory. We see Professor McGonagall yelling at Dumbledore for pushing Hermione into being a hero (the old reverse psychology trick, as subtle as it was on 70’s sitcoms). Daphne Greengrass expected to be teased for liking Neville, not for being heroic. Hermione shows up to ask Daphne if she wants to join up S.P.H.E.W. Daphne notices the poor timing. Tracey Davis doesn’t care about timing at all.
Chapter 70: S.P.H.E.W. has buttons. Tonks is enchanting them. S.P.H.E.W. requested permission to hold a protest. Professor McGonagall granted it. We have a protest. We get into some 1st Wave Feminist Theory. We get into gender power dynamics. Quirrell makes reference to the whole “using a love potion on muggles” thing. They point out that it’s kinda unfair that there are so few female heroes… but Quirrell points out that there really aren’t that many Dark Ladies. It’s sort of a tail end of the bell curve, thing. We get into the difference between being ambitious and having ambitions. Hermione gets assigned an essay. Hermione stands up to Professor Quirrell’s questions in a way that makes Professor McGonagall proud. Hermione realizes that Quirrell is Harry’s mysterious old wizard and not Dumbledore. Dumbledore shows up for the protest and Hermione does somewhat less of a good job standing up to his questions. We realize that protests are not the sort of heroic for which they’re protesting a lack of heroine representation. And so a group of heroine vigilantes is born.
Chapter 71: Being a wandering group of vigilantes ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. “I wonder if maybe what really makes someone a hero, is that when they try something like this, something interesting actually happens.” There’s a cute joke about the Chamber of Secrets showing up in a bathroom. They hammer out that Harry just sort of trips over interesting things happening and so they figure out that they’ll ask Harry about his sources (which include the ghost of Salazar Slytherin). If he doesn’t give up the info, they’ll just tie him up and drag him around and then they’ll be able to deal with whatever chaos he’s a magnet for. We get into Feminist Theory. (I hesitate to say more about that.) We hammer out that now everybody in Hogwarts knows that Harry’s source is the ghost of Salazar Slytherin. Tracey tells Draco about Slytherin’s ghost. Draco can’t believe that he believed her. “The trouble with passing up opportunities was that it was habit-forming.” Daphne figures out that Millicent knows what happens before everybody else because Millicent is a seer. Snape offers Rianne Felthorne 50 galleons to be memory-charmed after whatever plot he’s hatching is started. The plot involves Hermione.
Chapter 72: Harry explains that you can’t just deny things you haven’t done, lest you give away the game. Hermione considers what The Quibbler would write about her. Harry thinks that it IS kinda unfair that some people get a lot of help to be heroes and others don’t. Harry offers her use of his invisibility cloak. Which gives Hermione the info she needed to figure out how Harry did half of the tricks he’s done so far. But not the other half. They discuss Hero Theory and how other people can get hurt. Hermione figures out that it’s one of the Deathly Hallows. Hermione gets a note from the ghost of Salazar Slytherin about the whereabouts of a bully. Before she can tell anybody, Padma tells her that Daphne told her that she knows about the whereabouts of a bully. They encounter the bully. The bully is very good at being a bully. They take him out anyway… but one of the Hufflepuffs ends up having to go to the healer’s. Lunch happens. Hermione gets bullied by the Slytherin Quidditch captain. Draco saves the day? Explains his actions thusly: “there’s probably some way to make Slytherin look even worse than attacking eight first-year girls from all four Houses who are working together to stop bullies, but I can’t think of how. This way we get the benefit of what Greengrass is doing.” Daphne knows what’s up if Draco helps Hermione, though. She makes sure that Hermione knows what’s up too. Millicent explains how she saw what she saw, being a seer don’t you know. Susie talks to a seventh-year Hufflepuff in the common room. Snape chews the bully out. I loved the interaction between Draco and Lucius. “What are you doing?” “I am trying to (whatever).” “What are you really doing?” “I am preparing for the next war.”
Chapter 73: The school year continued, S.P.H.E.W. continues to fight bullies from both Gryffindor and Slytherin, Harry gave up two of his Lieutenants (traded one for Blaise Zabini), Harry points out that if Draco is trying to make Slytherin better that people should get on board with that. Quirrell gives a great line: “When you are more experienced, Mr. Potter, you will see such consequences in advance of your plotting. As it stands, you are being ill-served by your willful ignorance of all human nature you deem unpleasant.” Another excellent line: “When you are older, you will learn that the first and foremost thing which any ordinary person does is nothing.” There’s going to be another bully altercation. This one will be HARD. Susan ain’t being herself. The bullies show up… and, yeah. This one is hard. Susan totally steps up, though. Wait, Susan is Tonks. Or, Tonks is disguised as Susan. Everybody gets detention. Harry notices that this is all spinning out of control. Wizards and Witches just don’t appreciate how awesome magic is.
Chapter 74: Harry has a meeting with Quirrell. Quirrell asks Harry a question and Harry gets it wrong. Quirrell points out that bullying has increased, rather than decreased, and that sort of thing is probably not organic. Quirrell wants to know why one of his students in the armies was so dumb as to be one of the bullies in the fight in the previous chapter… and, apparently, doesn’t like the answer because she got kicked out of her army and the after-school DADA classes. Harry offers his services to the members of S.P.H.E.W. Everybody but Tracey has the inclination to decline. Tracey accepts enthusiastically. So Harry gives his help and then does this dumb macho thing which, seriously, anybody who paid attention to the revese psychology episodes of the most hamhanded 70’s sitcoms should KNOW would backfire. Backfire it does. Despite S.P.H.E.W. taking a hiatus, there’s a note saying that there’s going to be a big one. The bullies show up in force. Snape gets knocked out. Wait, Snape was there? Tracey summons Harry using a dark ritual. Harry glues the bullies to the ceiling after stripping them naked. Harry gets in trouble for this. Dumbledore has a good line: “You think you have taught the bullies of Hogwarts a lesson. But if Peregrine Derrick could learn that lesson, he would not be Peregrine Derrick.” Harry learns that Quirrell has been helping S.P.H.E.W. (but secretly). Harry points out that the bullies have always been bullying and now he’s getting called on the carpet for standing up to the bullies. Another good line: “You are too ready to fight, Harry. Much too ready to fight, and Hogwarts itself is becoming a more violent place around you.” Harry debriefs with Quirrell. They discuss Dark Ritual Theory. Quirrell has a good line: “A very strange thing… There was a time when I would have sacrificed a finger from my wand hand, to work upon the bullies of Hogwarts as we have worked upon them this day. To make them fear me as they now fear you, to have the deference of all the students and the adoration of many, I would have given my finger for that. You have everything now that I wanted then. All that I know of human nature says that I should hate you. And yet I do not. It is a very strange thing.” Tracey points out that what Harry wants in a woman is someone to channel his dark power. Draco wants to know if that’s confirmed or merely a hypothesis. Pansy’s soul may or may not have been eaten.
Chapter 75: The bullies discuss Dark Ritual Theory. Snape points out to the bullies that they’ve kinda screwed everything up pretty dang badly. Harry denies being Hermione’s boyfriend. Everybody discusses Romance Theory. A lot. Harry is in trouble. Maybe this is Romance Theory too? We discuss whether Harry should have to ask Hermione for permission before helping her not get beaten up by 44 bullies. They come to some sort of an accord. Kinda. Harry explains that Professor McGonagall can be trusted to do the right thing but she can’t be trusted to break the rules that need breaking and Professor Quirrell can be trusted to break the rules that need breaking but he can’t be trusted to do the right thing. And, finally, the professors do something about bullying. It’s not the bullies that inspire the professors to action: it’s the people fighting back against it. Anyway, Snape gives Hermione detention and takes 100 points from Ravenclaw. Dumbledore, Sprout, Flitwick and McGonagall don’t do anything about it… but Quirrell gives Hermione 100 points for doing the right thing. Good for him. Can’t do anything about detention, though.
Chapter 76: Obliviation theory. Rianne and Snape have a discussion and illuminate for us how Snape knew things. Rianne has been snitching on the bullies. Okay. That fills a few gaps. They discuss Romance Theory. They discuss Prophetic Semantic Theory. Before the obliviation, a kiss. Afterwards, a gem.
Chapter 77: Harry is ticked that Hermione got docked 100 points by Snape despite the agreement and shows up at Dumbledore’s to complain about it. What makes that impressive is that Dumbledore didn’t see it coming. Harry is unwilling to lose. Heck, he’s willing to fight to the finish because he’s right. Good people and neutral people have nothing to fear. Dumbledore has yet another good line: “The world that surrounds you is more fragile than you seem to believe, and we must walk with greater care.” Harry’s response is bold: “Let the Light win, and if trouble comes of it -” The boy shrugged. “Let Light win again.” Harry does not understand the phoenix’s price. We visit the room with some of the price, on pedestals. They discuss making hard choices. Dumbledore has made more of them than Harry has. Harry notices this but he’s willing to overlook it. We learn a little more of Dumbledore’s fight against Grindelwald. We learn why Quirrell helped Hermione when none of the other professors would. We learn how Harry figured out how to surprise Dumbledore. Quirrell and Snape have a meeting of bluffs and double bluffs and I think I saw a triple bluff. Draco has to protect Millicent and he does so in such a way that he doesn’t look like he’s protecting her for some higher reason. Draco meditates on how friendship could cast a Patronus but loyalty wouldn’t, not really. Draco explains to Gregory that the next war won’t be like the last war. Prophecy Theory. We find out that witches have access to a passage that goes from Ravenclaw to Slytherin, for some reason. Hermione has a meeting with a black mist and we learn a handful of things: Snape is a Death Eater, Lucius Malfoy knows Hermione’s name, and that just because appearances can be misleading, they’re usually not. And the black mist takes this personally. Then it takes it in stride.
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And that’s our first seventy-seven chapters.
For next Sunday, we’re going to read ten chapters and get ourselves up through chapter 87. That will get us through the next major arc where we see what happens when forces outside of Hogwarts start taking an interest in the storyline.
So… What do you think?
(Featured image is Foucault’s Pendulum by Sylvar. Used under a creative commons license.)
I think the discussions Harry has with Dumbledore outlines a major flaw in Harry’s approach to conflict. He has no conception of when to quit – in his mind every fight must be pursued to the capitulation of your enemy. This is the source of his “intent to kill” I think – he thinks of fighting only in terms of destroying his enemy.
On the one hand determination is a virtue for a rationalist – you have no hope of solving problems unless you are willing to actually try. However this mindset is dangerous in a strategic context – Harry escalates every conflict to crisis point, and that means he will over exhaust himself in a protracted war.Report
I really hated the S.P.H.E.W. chapters, probably because I generally couldn’t understand what was going on, who was doing what or what discourse was being had in the overarching narrative. On top of that it felt like the narrator was sweetly saying how twee and cute feminism is (though I may have been misreading that tone based on general frustration). So for me these were the weakest parts of the whole fan-fic and, frankly, I remain oblivious to whether they served much purpose at all in the overarching story.Report
I had a bit of the same reaction. The way it was handled felt pretty ham handed.
While I realize that there are strains of feminism that sound like much of what he was depicting, I kept wanting to jump in and point out that at its essence feminism is no more or less than the idea that women are people too. Hence, a woman shouldn’t have to prove she’s extraordinary to have same opportunities or get the same credit as any ordinary man. As a corollary (and I know some people identifying as feminists would disagree), the case for women having certain opportunities shouldn’t come from the argument that women are kinder/nobler/more peaceful/more virtuous/etc. (because we’re not). So the idea a woman’s motives, say, for being a hero, have to be different than a man’s is dumb.
Which is to say that the go around when Hannah admitted she had signed on to impress a boy was a complete hash. Again, I know a lot of people actually hold the sort of views depicted there, but I really wanted someone to point out that if the point is to show that girls can be heroes just like boys, …well, do you know how boys have signed up for that sort of thing because they wanted to impress a girl?Report
I think this is not a comment about feminism in the real world. The wizarding world appears to have no history of sexism, which makes the concept of feminism confusing for wizards who weren’t muggle-raised.
And I thought it was generally understood that a desire to impress women was a common cause of heroism in men.Report
“And I thought it was generally understood that a desire to impress women was a common cause of heroism in men.”
That was kind of my point. My impression was that the story made it seem like Hannah should be ashamed of having the same sort of motive, as though girls should have loftier reasons than boys. Though looking back through it, it does seem some of witches recognized that that was stupid. The whole scene got very convoluted.Report
This section of the story is far too convoluted. It took me 3 or 4 reads to wrap my head around it.
It does have meaning to the story as a whole, though it didn’t need to be so complicated.Report
I couldn’t bring myself to read that tripe multiple times. Can you summarize what the hell Snape was trying to accomplish? Or even generally how it was relevant, useful or even what rationalist theory it was dwelling on?Report
Snape is still hung up on Lily. He’s trying to move from “of course I’d still be hung up on her!” to “you know what, maybe being hung up on her is less than good for anybody involved and I was the only person who didn’t see that”.
(Snape is not particularly rationalist. He *IS* particularly Slytherin.)Report
Yes…? But what the fish does that have to do with what he does in the S.P.H.E.W. chapters? Hell, I’m not even 100% sure what he does IN the S.P.H.E.W. chapters.
I’ve zero problem with his characterization outside of that stretch of chapters. But, as with pretty much all the characters in the story, everything just goes bonkers in the S.P.H.E.W. chapters then the story sort of hiccups and moves forward as if trying to forget they ever happened.Report
Assuming we can take Dumbledore at his word, Snape is Dumbledore’s guy. So Snape was trying to get information in order to help protect SPHEWers.
Remember the first book where Snape was helping Harry on the broomstick and everybody thought he was the guy trying to harm Harry?
Like that? Maybe?Report
Maybe I misread the chapters but wasn’t he also directing the bullies and causing the directions to the S.P.H.E.Wers to lead them into increasingly devastatingly outnumbered odds? And then he shows up and gets knocked out? Then somehow everyone forgot that part or glossed over it? Or maybe I just misread it since it’s written like a deranged narrative labyrinth covered in rainbow spackle.
Ok gimmie this. If someone skipped from the beginning of the S.P.H.E.W. arc to the end of it; excised those chapters out entirely, is there anything of significant value to the Hpmor story that’s lost or anything later that doesn’t make sense?Report
Tonks masquerading as Susan, for one.
Well, the stuff that I liked from the SPHEW arc:
I liked Hermione’s conversation with Quirrell. I liked her conversation with Dumbledore. I liked how we spent a lot of time with a lot of characters who we don’t really spend time with in the rest ofthe story. Daphne Greengrass and Tracey Davis, for example. We see Draco help Hermione because of the SPHEW thing. We establish that escalating violence leads to escalating violence. This gives us a setting in which Dumbledore can show Harry the room with all of the wands allowing Harry to be absolutely pigheaded in response.
Most importantly, it sets up another scenario in which Harry and his ilk simply refuse to lose in which losing at the beginning would have been arguably less bad than winning at the end.
And, yeah, I imagine that Yudkowsky has a lifetime of observing female feminists from afar and has some conclusions about the patterns he’s noticed and, heck, figured that he’d write them down in the most plausibly deniable way possible.Report
Thanks, ok, so I’ll grant you on the losing thing. The Phoenix’s price thing was not bad also. I observe, here, that almost all the good stuff involved Harry reacting to the SPHEW stuff rather than the SPHEW stuff being of much use. I thought Daphne was ok, at best, and Tracey was an idiot.
But anyhow, HPMOR over all was great so I shouldn’t begrudge Yudkowsky some shit chapters but man those chapters sank me out of the whole fic the first time and I only got through them this time by gritting my teeth and skimming through any parts that involved the girls which is pretty awful.Report
I’m going to respond to everyone here including some stuff down thread. This is just my take rather than anything definitive, but I believe the following things.
1. The criticism of the S.P.E.W. chapters has been shared by others. I liked them because I like spending time with these characters, but I think it’s fair to say that there isn’t a huge amount of plot movement that affects the main story arc.
2. I read S.P.E.W. as something of a mea culpa on the part of Yudkowsky for making Harry the center. Of course, that’s really J.K. Rowling’s fault, but nevertheless we get some of the girl characters doing stuff and we get to see Tracy Davis and Daphne Greengrass elevated to speaking roles.
3. That said, there absolutely are things happening that you should notice that are important to the main story. (Repeat spoiler warning.)
a. Among them is emphasizing that with respect to Snape, we are in uncharted territories. If you read the original Rowling series, you know Snape’s love for Lily is utterly binding. Faith in that love is sufficient to guarantee Snape’s completely loyalty to Dumbledore’s cause. We now find that this is not necessarily the case in HPMOR. Perhaps it was Harry’s conversation with Snape after the bullying of LeStrange, but Snape is now following his own agenda. And if you didn’t notice, he actually kissed Felthorne before memory charming her. It was his first kiss ever (76), which explains why in the original series he spent his entire lifetime hung up on Lily, and now we are left to wonder if now maybe that won’t be the case.
b. Draco is trying to do things to make Slytherin look good with respect to the other houses. Not just trying to make himself look good with respect to Slytherin and his father. In fact, he is trading off his relationship with his father and Slytherin to accomplish the goal. This is a very different than what we’ve seen before.
c. We get further hints at Harry’s weaknesses. Harry seems right, but there seems to be wisdom in Dumbledore’s words too when talking about violence and who wins. I should just leave it at that.
d. Harry explains in 75 that McGonagall isn’t really responsible. This might not be plot relevant, but it’s something that stuck with me, so I’m including it.
e. In 77, we have Snape’s conversation with Quirrell. I’m sure there are a bunch of significant hints there, but honestly I never really pieced all of them together. Maybe it doesn’t matter that much or they are too obscured to make out even after you know the ending.
f. I think Jay soft-peddles the black mist encountering Hermione a bit. So, if you are paying a whole lot of attention, you should be able to do the following:
– guess what the “(fleeting disorientation)” is caused by. What is happening to Hermione?
– notice that the mist is doing a really bad job of convincing Hermione that it should be trusted. It seems genuinely perplexed, but it keeps trying and trying and trying and trying without success. OR DOES IT? If you had to convince Hermione of something how would you do it? You might not even need magic! Why is the mist so bad at this?
– have a pretty good idea of who the mist is.
Disclaimer: I was not able to figure out who the mist was when I first read the book or maybe not even the second, but maybe this will help you? If not, it’s OK, all will eventually be revealed!Report
Dumbledore seems to be honest, but he is apparently mistaken.
In the next section, Qhzoyrqber fraqf Fancr gb erpbire gur abgrf Urezvbar jnf trggvat sebz gur zlfgrevbhf-abgr-haqre-gur-cvyybj-yrnire, Fancr tbrf gb ure qbez, svaqf gur abgrf, vapvarengrf gurz, naq ergheaf gb ercbeg ur qvqa’g svaq gurz.
Also recall one of Lucius Malfoy’s early letters to Draco, where Lucius says something about Snape being one of the Malfoys’ guys.
And then what was the scene in 77 where Quirrell challenges Snape on what his plot was, which he couldn’t do in Dumbledore’s presence because Snape presumably is plotting, if not against, then at least against the desires of, Dumbledore.
Snape is seemingly not as much Dumbledore’s guy as Dumbledore gives out.Report
>Dumbledore seems to be honest, but he is apparently
> mistaken.
Sorry, do you mean to say “Dumbledore believes Snape to be honest, but…” The rot13 part doesn’t seem to say that Dumbledore himself is dishonestReport
That was unclear.
I meant: Dumbledore seems to be honestly expressing his belief about Snape’s loyalty. Snape’s actions appear to diverge from what Dumbledore says about Snape, probably because Dumbledore is mistaken about Snape, not because Dumbledore is lying about Snape.Report
Ah, yes, you are correct.Report
As I understood it, Snape was setting up the ambushes, and upbraiding the bullies for losing their fights, because bullying is the Slytherin way and being publicly bested absolutely isn’t.
But other stuff doesn’t line up – I have no idea what it was that Rianne did for his plot and then got obliviated of.Report
Thanks, that confused me too.Report
Rianne was telling Millicent where bullies would be found, so she could tell SPHEW. Snape wasn’t hurting SPHEW, he was helping them. Quirrell was right, Snape is no longer acting purely as Dumbledore’s creature, but is instead acting on his own initiative, and he has a strong distaste for bullies.Report
Ooooh, that explains a lot.Report
I’m still lost.
Was Rianne sending Slytherin letters with Millicent as the entry node to the TOR network? Was Rianne openly telling Millicent who then wrote a TOR message via some other entry node? What about the abgrf haqre Urezvbar’f cvyybj (I can’t remember if that’s a spoiler or not, if you’re a couple chapters into this week’s reading you’ve already got that far anyway)
Since these were ambushes targeting S.P.H.E.W., the person sending the notes must have been on the side of the ones lying in wait not the ones they were luring into the trap (remember the first bully they got? “I am a bully and you are my target. I am now going to assault you, because that is how bullying works” – telegraphing to us that the bully knew the tip-off had been sent, since he was in league with the sender) (and also that the S.P.H.E.W. girls aren’t very bright since they keep not realizing they’re walking into ambushes).
If Rianne and Millicent and co. were really on S.P.H.E.W.’s side, they would have just not sent any notes at all and then the bullies would have wasted their afternoon lurking in a hallway nobody walks down, while S.P.H.E.W. had a chance of finding actual bullying going on.
All this reads to me like Yudkowsky wrote the section once where S.P.H.E.W. were being baited into the ambushes by one plot, and then again where they were being baited into the ambushes by a different plot, but didn’t remove all the bits about the first plot.Report
If I recall correctly, this gets cleared up.
If I recall correctly.Report
Actually the arc with S.P.H.E.W. seemed to miss something else entirely, which is that ordinary people can be heroes. In some ways maybe the fact that most of the girls weren’t Hermione-level extraordinary shows that, but I really wanted someone to come out and say that – an explicit refutation of Quirrell’s increasingly unsettling ubermensch views.
Seriously, has Harry in all his advanced reading never come across Nietzsche and the criticism, and historical consequences, of that philosophy? If he hasn’t, then he should still have some concept of it just from his extensive scifi/fantasy reading. It’s not as though the concept of how that can go very very wrong is foreign to Star Trek, Star Wars, etc.
I haven’t read ahead so I dn’t know, but I hope at some point Harry looks at ‘I ask you to do X because you, unlike these others, are extraordinary’ and realizes that while he may be extraordinary, that line is bait for a trap.Report
This is a good point. It sees while these chapters illustrate that (who is Hannah Abbott after all?) it doesn’t come out and say it directly. Or maybe Dumbledore did indirectly by telling Hermione that Harry was destined to be the hero and she was destined to only be the first named friend?Report
Point of order – are we reading 12 chapters to reach the end of 89 or 10 chapters to reach the end of 77?
Anyway I understood a couple of things a little differently.
In 76 I understood that Rianne was passing on the location of the next showdown / ambush to (who was it? Hannah?) at Snape’s instruction, because Snape wanted to make sure S.P.H.E.W. got their butts kicked
In 74 I understood that it wasn’t Harry but Quirrel who glued everyone to the ceiling, letting Harry take the credit.
Anyway, I agree that this section felt like a bit of a muddle. There were some bits that will surely figure in later, but the arc as a whole seemed a little out of nowhere – like Yudkowsky realised he was writing a sausage party, tried to fix it, and then wrote a bunch of chapters about how he failed to. Or something.Report
Ah, dang it. Let me check.
10. We’re getting to the end of chapter 87.Report
I could totally have gotten those parts wrong. I thought that 76 was related to the (yet unrevealed) secret of divination. In 74, that could totally be the case. I completely missed that. I just figured that it was Harry’s doing (even if he used Quirrell to do it).
I saw this section as Yudkowsky dealing with a couple of things, one of which was the sausage party. (I’m terrified to mention the other things I think he was dealing with.)Report
Oh, wait, now it looks like maybe Hermione was getting the locations via notes-under-the-pillow from the mysterious notes-under-the-pillow-leaver, and that’s how she knew? But what about Hannah (or whoever) claiming to know because she’s a seer?
I have no idea whatsoever what Rianne was up to.Report
Sorry if this was answered, but “lrf, Urezvbar tbg gur ybpngvbaf sebz abgrf haqre gur cvyybj. Gur abgrf jrer frag ol Zvyyvprag jub pynvzrq gb or n frre. Va ernyvgl, Fancr jnf gur bar jub jnf qverpgvat gurz guebhtu Srygubear”Report
It was a bit confusing. I still don’t quite know what Snape was up to, and definitely not why.Report
I think that’s basically OK at this point. You really just need to know Snape is behaving very differently than he was previously. Having any involvement in the bullying situation without being instructed by Dumbledore is new territory for him suggesting he has his own agenda. And even Quirrell hasn’t figured it out, so don’t be hard on yourself for not doing soReport
Here’s part of what I think might be a problem with this particular fanfic as a whole…
The way the prophecy was written in the canonical books, there were multiple people who could have fulfilled the various prophecies. Specifically: Neville. (There are a half dozen essays out there about this sort of thing.)
As awesome as Neville is in this fanfic… he’s not the one prophesied.Report
So, I no longer believe that people can decode deep literary meanings and hidden symbolism in work unless the original author comes right out and says so, but I *used* to believe that. The reason I stopped believing it is that, even though some people managed to pick up on infinitesimally tiny but real and deliberate hints in HPMOR, like the reason why Ch. 29 seems to randomly throw in a mention of Metamorphmagi, nobody managed to decode what I thought were pretty blatant literary meanings and symbolism. This is not meant to be blaming the readers, it is just the illusion of transparency on my end, but I do suspect the lesson generalizes and now I don’t believe in other supposedly hidden deep literary symbolism either, unless the author spelled out what it was.
HPMOR was meant as commentary, not so much on the original universe of Harry Potter, as the much larger universe of Harry Potter fanfiction. For example, the fact that Bill Weasley had a psychotic break and called in Dumbledore and others to reveal that the Weasley pet family rat was secretly Peter Pettigrew… reflects the existence of literally hundreds of Peggy Sue HP fanfictions where that exact scene plays out, and never once had any story depicted what the outcome would be in real life. That is, a lot of events in HPMOR are different takes on scenes that play out repeatedly in HP fanfiction.
Although Hermione has many literary meanings, the foremost of which would be spoilers to reveal at this point in your reading, one of those meanings is as a commentary on the Plight of the Secondary Character in Fanfiction. Male or female, this Secondary Character often ends up as the subject of the Main Character’s choice of mate, and possibly in a one-sided harem: “She’d been in a shower stall that morning and just about to turn on the water, when she’d heard giggles coming from outside. And she’d heard Morag talking about how that Muggleborn girl probably wouldn’t fight hard enough to win against Ginevra Weasley, and Padma speculating that Harry Potter might decide he wanted both.” Again, to be clear, this is also liable to happen to male characters in a work with female protagonist, or to male characters in a work with a gay male protagonist, etcetera. This is what much of the rest of Hogwarts thinks Hermione is supposed to be; but Hermione doesn’t agree with that, and Harry is trying to back her up on it. I suppose in retrospect it is inevitable that this attempt at literary criticism of fanfiction would be confused as having something to do with feminism, especially since Hermione herself thinks that way in the fashion of many who came of age in the 1990s (though it is said and shown that the wizarding world is not in the same place culturally at all). But the author’s intention was not to say anything new about feminism there; the author’s intention was to symbolize something about the way that fanfiction treats its characters who are not Designated Protagonists, and to ask if the characters themselves might perhaps not like it.Report
Thanks for contributing some context Eliezer.
I think an occupational hazard of writing the most popular Harry Potter fanfiction on the internet is that your audience will consist of an unusually large number of people who have no experience with fanfiction. I’ve read HPMOR several times, but I haven’t read much other fanfiction (and I don’t think I’ve read anything involving harems) and I suspect that’s true of a lot of us here, which may help explain why so many of us didn’t get it.Report
Holy crap. That’s Eliezer Yudkowsky.
Anyway, yeah, this Harry Potter fanfic is the first one that I’ve ever read.
(As a meta-commentary on other Harry Potter stories, all that stuff is lost on me.)Report
Thanks for contributing to our read of your book!
I also have never read any other Harry Potter fan fiction – I don’t really know if I’ve read anything before that would exactly count as fan fiction (revisionist or parallel fiction like The Last Ringbearer, various of Gregory Maguire’s books, The Mists of Avalon, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. Eutopia etc. – they’re probably at least fan fiction adjacent) so it never even occurred to me that references to HP fan fiction tropes, or fan fiction tropes in general, would be a thing I might look for, or what it would look like if I were to see it.Report