About That Bone, Dr Freddie deBoer

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  1. Jaybird says:

    We live in a world of only children whose parents are their friends.

    A world in which 3 out of 5 kids are middle kids was a world in which free speech could work.

    A world of only children? No. There is no room for compromise.Report

  2. Damon says:

    I remember the days of going to a campus speaking series that included Jean Kirkpatrick, George Will, and Mark Russell. The protestors for the most part, were outside the venue. (In the case of Jean Kirkpatrick, beating drums chanting “Jean Kirkpatrick is the Contra Queen”.-even today that’s a damn funny line!) No one prevented access to the auditorium, and during Q&A, several protestors got up and asked challenging questions of the speaker. No one was removed, unless they were disruptive. The Q&A lasted quite a while, no one was rushed, and the protestors or non supporters of the speakers were given plenty of time to challenge the responses to their questions by the event speaker. I left those events exposed to a lot more of “both sides” and a lot to think about. It was a valuable experience. Seems like times have changed…..Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Damon says:

      In the early 2000s, I went to a talk about the Millennium Development Goals at a nearby university. Overall I think the speakers were fairly moderate, maybe a bit left of center, but one of the speakers was an economist, and he gave a fairly middle-of-the-road spiel about development economics.

      I can’t remember what he said that set her off, but during the break, a middle-aged woman with a bit of a wine-aunt socialist look to her huffily remarked to me that she hoped that kind of thing wasn’t what they were teaching us there.

      Anyway, that’s the most vigorous protest against a speaker that I ever personally witnessed prior to the Great Awokening.Report

  3. The truth of the situation is that there are actually 123,456,789 examples of this happening everywhere, to good people, who wrote excellent articles that are completely within the realm of acceptable discourse. This has had serious consequences, and if the consequences aren’t serious enough to have affected pillsy and Bert personally just yet, it doesn’t take much of an imagination to realize that unless pushed back on, cancel culture will have dire consequences for all of us. Dire as in, some pretty important things we need to be able to debate freely won’t be. Dire as in, people who need to put on their big boy and girl panties and learn to live side by side with people who they don’t agree with them every minute of the day will instead be empowered to bully everyone in their line of sight. Dire as in, people’s lives ruined, and this time it will be someone you actually care about instead of “oh IDK some weirdo, but they wrote something that I didn’t find aesthetically pleasing, so whatevs.”

    To anyone who genuinely cares about free speech instead of treating it as a means to an end, it is highly concerning. But the truth is, you can’t write a functional, reasonable length article by listing example after example. Freddie chose a situation that was important to him because of his links with the university, and the Laura Kipnis thing because it was something everyone had heard of. Writers get to do that. Writers HAVE to do that. But those instances were not the point of the article per se.

    The whole point of Freddie’s original article is that you don’t get to handwave away censorship because the article in question is shitty or because the opinions are bad (so saying “this article was shitty and the opinions are bad” is not a good counterargument). The whole point is that censorship is a slippery slope, particularly in academia which is both populated by spoiled brats AND ostensibly is meant to be dealing in ideas, and that you should use it very sparingly. Because the Overton Window is one of those windows where you really gotta push to get it started but once it begins to move it slides shut super duperly fast, usually breaking your fingers in the process.

    I mean, that’s what liberals purported to believe up till about five minutes ago, right? That the Red Scare was bad because people had a right to express their beliefs, Lenny Bruce was awesome heroic and wonderful, that even what had once been considered pornography was free speech, married couples sleeping in separate beds on movies and sitcoms was stupid, that JLo’s shaved crotch on the Super Bowl was as American as Mom and Apple Pie, and anyone who had a problem with that was just a big ol’ prudish meanie pants? Anyone who ever asked for any standards in public discourse was a censor, a prude, and The Enemy Of All That Is Good. Right? Or was that just a means to an end? And if that’s all it ever was for the left, well hey, shouldn’t that be pointed out? Or is being held to the left’s own standards just another one of those things that is just sooo emotionally painful that ya just can’t bear it??

    By the way, I wrote about the JLo thing here: https://atomicfeminist.com/2020/02/07/jlos-vent/

    Guess times have changed! Funny how censors are still awful, terrible, ugly, disgusting, backwards thinking people when it’s books in middle school schools, but they’re just such amazing and heroic people when they’re getting college newspapers shut down, isn’t it?

    But this isn’t about speech, this is about examples, since the focus of this piece appears to have been “Freddie gave bad examples, or the wrong examples, or maybe not enough examples.”

    If you’ll recall, pillsy, a couple years ago, when you and I wrote articles on the same theme, and everyone was like “Kristin doesn’t want to give examples because she doesn’t have any, because everything anyone who isn’t my ingroup claims is having a fever dream!!” And I explained that no, actually, I had decided to limit my examples, even at times to stop giving them entirely, because I found that the agitariat here on OT only want examples so you can look at them and immediately find fault with them. That’s all. That is the fave pursuit of most of the people on this site, as far as I can see, is to single out examples to completely miss an author’s point while then going on an insane, intellectually dishonest debunking wherein we are told “see this thing not only doesn’t prove the author’s case, but actually proves the OPPOSITE is true!”

    Well thanks for giving me the quintessential example!Report

    • clarification – this article is not insane. The lengths some commentors on this site have gone to in support of certain subjects, on the other hand…Report

    • pillsy in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      The truth of the situation is that there are actually 123,456,789 examples of this happening everywhere, to good people, who wrote excellent articles that are completely within the realm of acceptable discourse. This has had serious consequences, and if the consequences aren’t serious enough to have affected pillsy and Bert personally just yet, it doesn’t take much of an imagination to realize that unless pushed back on, cancel culture will have dire consequences for all of us.

      I agree that it’s been going on a lot; if I disagree it’s that I don’t believe that it’s an accelerating trend at the first tier universities and SLACs that get so much of the attention in the Culture Wars.

      And yes, I absolutely agree the attempted censorship is bad.[1] It was. Defunding a paper over a terrible op/ed is bad and would make running any college paper impossible.

      As for pushing back against it, one of the reasons I was so puzzled by Dr deBoer’s article is that it was highlighting an example of successful pushback against attempted censorship.

      The whole point of Freddie’s original article is that you don’t get to handwave away censorship because the article in question is shitty or because the opinions are bad (so saying “this article was shitty and the opinions are bad” is not a good counterargument).

      I agree that you shouldn’t wave it away for those reasons.

      I do think in discussions over censorship it can matter what content is, especially when we’re discussing what I guess I’d call procedurally legitimate forms of censorship–where people are choosing what to publish, or fund, or, yes, present as a part of a secondary school curriculum. There are things that I think would have justified defunding that newspaper, it’s just a NY Post-level op/ed ain’t it.

      But this isn’t about speech, this is about examples, since the focus of this piece appears to have been “Freddie gave bad examples, or the wrong examples, or maybe not enough examples.”

      He gave one good example lumped together with one bad example, suggesting to me that there’s a flaw in his thinking that leads him to classify the same thing.

      And to sum up the problem as I see it, I don’t think censorship is a matter that itself is beyond the bounds of legitimate debate. The example deBoer chose implies to me that he disagrees.

      Without that debate, how can we even push back against censorship, much less convince a new generation they shouldn’t be doing it?

      I know it can be infuriating (and I often am infuriated) when people miss the point of examples, but in this instance I believe that I have gotten the point of the example, and I believe that the point is just wrong.

      Thank you for reading and commenting.

      [1] At some point a lot of people, including myself, bought into the idea that only the government can engage in censorship, but I no longer believe this. It’s just that private censorship is a much trickier topic for debate. Sometimes it’s OK!Report

  4. Brandon Berg says:

    That last consequence, by the way, is the same bad consequence that came about from the article. People were angry. People’s feelings were hurt. People were scared and felt unsafe.

    Can we at least acknowledge that feeling this way is actually a fairly reasonable response to the actions of the mob that went after this paper, while feeling this way about one opinion piece in a student newspaper, or even a national media outlet, is nuts?Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    What I am going to write as a comment is probably rather disjointed but I’m working out why a small section of the left (DeBoer types) and the right-wing are in huge freak outs over cancel culture/woke.

    For the right-wing, I think it is obvious, they understand that their views are becoming more and more unacceptable to many and are trying to shore up power as much as possible. Reagan and Bush I received a good chunk of the youth vote in 1980, 1984, 1988. My alma mater is known as another hotbed of campus radicalism and was known as one when I was a student there from 1998-2002. However, if you look back at the yearbooks from the 1980s, you will see more of a Republican presence and plenty of students wearing Reagan and Bush pins. This seems to have dropped in 1992 and never came back. When I was there in 2000, the big and loud debate was Gore v. Nader, Bush II was not getting much love on campus. In the 2020 election, Biden received 61 percent of the 18-29 year old vote though Trump did receive 53 percent of the white 18-29 year old vote.

    And despite what people state about people growing older, politics generally get locked in your twenties. Meaning that the Millennials and Zoomers will become a liberal majority…eventually. This is after the Silents and about half the Boomers, with early Gen Xers (Alex B. Keaton abounds) kept with the conservative politics of their youth for so long. A lot of conservative humor for this group (1970s National Lampoon stuff) is no longer considered funny and this distresses them. The loss of being the ones making the pop culture references is a reminder of mortality and being old in America.

    There are other shifts as well. Paul Campos has written about how Romney received a fair number of donations from lawyers in 2012 but in 2016 and 2020, Trump received close to none and the professionals shifted to Clinton and Biden (though Warren and Sanders received the most support from college-educated professionals in the primary I believe).

    The social reactionary also hates the vibe of light woke corporations because corporations figured out that there is money in the hills of catering to younger and more progressive voters. Again, this is another sign of mortality in American culture. As recently as Bush II, corporations would have said “how high?” when social conservatives said jump. Now Dreher can go into hysterics and no one cares and Disney is being pressured by its own employees to fight against the “Don’t say gay” bill.

    For lefties like DeBoer, the calculus is a little more difficult. There are obvious grifters like Greenwald, Gabbard, Tracey, and others who figured out that there is gold in the hills of being the “left-wing” person that right-wingers can use to troll Democrats. “Even the liberal/leftist, Glenn Greenwald….” kind of stuff. Others in this group were never really that liberal and disliked that they had to pay dues and work their way up the ladder.

    Freddie is not part of this group because he is still generally a guy that writes and has a day job (or did). Freddie’s big beef is closer to that of the dirt bag left and that is that they find liberals like me boring because we are philosophically liberal but often operationally very conservative and boring. Remember the thing that drove Ahmari over the edge was Drag Queen Story Hour. Drag Queens might still be shocking in some parts of the country but reading stories to kids in the library which is about as staid and respectable activity as can be imagined. The dirtbag crowd looks at liberals like me and thinks “you are doing it wrong. What is the point of being a liberal if you won’t be a Bacchus?”

    In short, they hate the middle classes more than they like/love liberal/left politics. This leads them to have a certain amount of alliance and affinity with the anti-woke conservatives. One of the interesting things about Trumpism is the rise of “party hard” conservatives. The Ned Flanders types are largely gone. Instead you have party hard dysfunctionals like Boebert, MTG, Cawthorn, and Gaetz as the new face of right-wing politics in Congress. Palin was a preview of this type. DeBoer’s past writings indicate that he thinks the wild and out of control are more interesting than Drag Queen Story Hour. The new crowd of conservatives obviously parties to abandon and none of them seem that church going. Another big group to rise from Trump was “unchurched evangelicals.”Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      There’s a segment of the left that sees race/sex/gender activism as an intentional distraction from the fight to abolish capitalism. They see capitalism as the ur-oppression from which all other forms of oppression follow.

      I see people saying that they’re just pretending to be left-wing so that conservatives can use them as the token lefty who’s on their side, but they really are very far to the left on economic issues. 2015-vintage Bernie Sanders was a milder version of this, in that he treated race/sex/gender concerns as secondary rather than irrelevant.

      Politics, as they say, makes strange bedfellows. Dirtbag left and the right (both auth-right and lib-right) can make common cause when Democrats and the media are pushing hard on the identity issues, but it’s an uneasy coalition that will likely fall apart when identity issues recede and economic issues come to the fore again. On the other hand, we may be in the midst of a realignment where auth-right populists move further to the left on economics.

      I would prefer that this not happen, but I’m used to not getting what I want in politics.

      That’s the view from my window, anyway.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        As they would call it, they are class not race leftists. I think there are several big problems with their cosmology. First is that a lot of the rightist billionaires and millionaires absolutely do believe in the nuttiness that they are spreading. They are true believers and not cynical manipulators. The second thing is that you can not avoid cultural issues in their entirety.Report

    • “For the right-wing, I think it is obvious, they understand that their views are becoming more and more unacceptable to many and are trying to shore up power as much as possible.”

      This is a very interesting take, in that what you state is obvious is only partially so.

      Both sides are trying to take/preserve as much power as they can. That’s how politics is played. Yes, obvious.

      But I’m quite sure the motivation you assign the right is entirely incorrect. I think their understanding is that their views are widely held by the vast majority of Americans and they are going to leverage that populism to taking back power.

      It’s not a defensive stance. They are playing offense.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    These debates also reveal an interesting split in how Americans view elite. During Obama’s first term, there was an excellent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education titled “Cornell and Brown are second tier.” The article was basically about how the brass ring jobs in consulting and I-banking more or less go to people who graduated from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford. MIT types can become quants. However, schools like Cornell and Brown are not considered good enough for entry positions at Boston Consulting or Bain or Morgan or Goldman. This article was turned into a book called Pedigree which expanded on it further.

    https://www.amazon.com/Pedigree-How-Elite-Students-Jobs/dp/0691169276

    Wesleyan and Oberlin are hard schools to get into. As is my alma mater but they are not elite in the Pedigree sense. A lot of these schools boast about how many of their students go onto graduate school but the dirty secret of this is that being quasi-elite in the U.S. often means you need to get another degree to get a job. But schools like Wesleyan and Oberlin are seen as being the cultural leaders of America despite being so small and this freaks out right-wingers and the anti-woke “left” because they think incidents like this will become national eventually. They seem to forget that college students are still working on their emotions and are teenagers in many ways.Report

    • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      I know this is not one you personally will agree with, Saul, but my head is getting into a similar space of what you’re linking to. My ‘eureka’ take away from the last few days of debating this issue is that what we are really seeing isn’t so much free speech as it is class warfare practice, or maybe intermurals. It just used to go down behind closed doors pre-social media/pre-smart phone.Report

      • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

        We’ve been discussing this a lot a over the last few days, and that’s very close to where I am and have been for some time.

        I didn’t mention it here, but the opening of Dr deBoer’s article touches on the same thing limited the media class, and captures some of the dynamics there.

        Also, I wonder if one of the reasons this is so obvious to me is that I went to one of the Trash Ivies, and this sort of thing did happen. I can think of a few events that would have gotten this level of national attention from my time there long before the Great AwokeningReport

      • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

        Yeah.

        Whilst on my jog yesterday, I was thinking about this and it seems to be more about how The Vegan Club can prevent David Purdue from speaking on campus (“David Purdue isn’t related to the chicken people.” “That’s besides the point!”) than it is about whatever the heck it was that Purdue supposedly stands for.

        It’s about exercising power.

        I can prevent you from hearing what you want to hear because I am powerful.
        You cannot prevent me from hearing what I want to hear, though. Because you are less powerful.

        It ain’t about speech at all. It’s about power.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

        I don’t completely disagree. Though it might be more apt to describe it as interclass warefare. It is also the very online thinking they are more important than they are.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

        Here is why I think it is interclass warefare, people like Ahmari and Hawley are not particularly working class and neither is MTG or Cawthorn or Gaetz. They are all pretty wealthy, educated, and have the same elite connections. JD Vance is less redneck than he let’s on. Boebert might be the only authentically working class of the bunch.

        But they are outsiders compared to their cohort overall in their politics and are fighting to make the opposite true.

        It is also important to note here that there is a fight over who gets to count as working class. A lot of Trump’s “working class” supporters are pretty wealthy but they earn their money through things like contracting and trucking, not being college-educated professionals. They are the petit bourgeois and own capital goods in the traditional sense and are the local gentry:

        https://patrickwyman.substack.com/p/american-gentry?s=r

        As we have discussed here before, a lot of Americans, especially white dude Americans, have a hard time accepting that trucking is more diverse now and accepting female and often minority service workers into the definition of working class. They feel like it is their identity being taken away and this cannot stand. I think Hawley’s far right conservatism is sincere but he is clearly not from that class. Right-wing politics always had an odd alliance between an artistocratic elite and a lower class base.

        The dirtbag left is often from very elite backgrounds (Walker Bragman, trustfunder comes to mind) and is often very upset that they are not automatically given vanguard positions. This is why they hate Democrats. Plus os bougie types have to hold down day jobs and that sucks.Report

        • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          Oh as usual I would quibble with your identitarian generalizing about motivations. But I’m in agreement that there has always been a tension where relatively well off and/or people with downright elite backgrounds try to play at populist. It’s one of the reasons not only Trump, but even his more polished acolytes like Hawley, have always struck me as self-evidently absurd. As I said, I’ve become a lot open over the last few days that this is just the latest version. That’s what I was getting at when I said intramurals.

          Still, I’d advise caution in your racial assumptions, given the number of LatinXs who seem suddenly open to voting Republican.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          As Pinketty put it, Brahmin Left vs. Merchant Right. There was always interclass warfare between the middle class and upper class people whose professions revolved around education and those that revolved around business, ownership, and transfer of assets. What is new is that this conflict is coming to America when it didn’t really exist in the past but it was common in Europe and elsewhere.Report

  7. Chip Daniels says:

    Again with the laser-like fixation on university politics, by people who have no stake in the situation.

    Not a mention of workplace speech issues, or primary school speech issues, but always, always, about some petty dustup at some college somewhere. And not even about the other university speech issues like administrators pressuring professors over inconvenient speech, or donors like the Chinese government using their leverage to chill speech they don’t like.

    Why does a minor petty spat at a university none of the commenters attend draw so much attention and focus? Even granting that the people involved behaved badly, what makes this worthy of attention as opposed to say, an angry mob berating a school board or making death threats against a public health official, threats so genuine as to force the official to resign and go into hiding?

    My theory is that this reflects a bias of Ingroup versus Outgroup.
    The sort of people who make threats at school board meetings are People Like Us- white, middle class, parents gainfully employed, and holding Conventional viewpoints about culture.

    University students are in this sense outsiders- they are affluent and privileged, holding views that are outside the Convention. When they form a mob and berate an official, it is frightening and alarming to People Like Us because it represents a disruption, a threat.

    The same theory goes for why a school superintendent declaring he will remove all books by LGBTQ authors stirs little controversy, but a Chinese government pressuring universities to cancel a Tianenmen Square panel is alarming. The superintendent is like us, whereas the Chinese are foreign.

    Its just my theory, and of course others will disagree.
    But I’m not wrong in noting there is a glaring disparity in reactions to similar incidents, am I?Report

    • Damon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “Why does a minor petty spat at a university none of the commenters attend draw so much attention and focus? Even granting …………and go into hiding?”

      Well, lest my point be missed, I was mentioning how CIVIL the protestors were in my comment. There was no violence, no threat of violence. There were boundaries few were willing to cross, and if they were, people were removed. It’s unfortunate that we’ve “progressed” so far that people are getting unhinged and threatening/committing violence.Report

    • dhex in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      if you only follow chattering classers, probably?

      if you follow fire’s work, then most certainly not.

      i pay attention to the latter camp, because the former camp is a lot of partisan zombie garbage. unfortunately, that garbage rules the media and political classes who determine what is important and legal, and these rounds of deliberately vague, incoherent, oftentimes cruel, and ultimately fundraising-based appeals disguised as legislation to culture war junkies.

      it’s also why it will be instructively infuriating to see the teams switch sides in their principles when liberals figure out how to use the destructive groundwork being laid by these short-term-horizon maga chuds for their own stupid ends.Report

  8. Kazzy says:

    I went to undergrad during the early 2000s (2001-2005) at a Jesuit liberal arts college in a major northeast city (Boston College). While there, we had a main student newspaper that I would stay skewed liberal but probably in the way one would expect on a college campus, though probably not as liberal as some others do to the Jesuit influence and our school having lots of students that hailed from New England prep and boarding schools. For instance, while I was there the campus had a big debate about if and how to include sexual orientation in the non-discrimination policy. As I recall, the paper’s primary editorial stance was to support it’s inclusion, though it did include op-eds that argued differently along with more straightforward pieces that explained why doing so beyond what was legally necessary was difficult if not impossible due to Catholic doctrine. Anyway, I digress… but the paper had a liberal skew but was far from hostile to conservative views.

    Within this context, there was a movement among conservatives students (I assume it was all students… who knows who may else have been involved) to revive a conservative competitor to the primary paper. So they did. I don’t know exactly how that all went down in terms of funding and official recognition and whatever but the paper was published and you could get it right next to the main paper in the dining halls and where ever else on campus.

    It was mostly meh. Think like early Fox News… a blend of legitimate conservative viewpoints and provocative-for-the-sake-of-provocative takes. Whatevs. It was what it was.

    Some students — including friends of mine — took to grabbing massive stacks of these papers and tossing them in the trash. I hated that they did that. I disagreed with lots of what the paper said but that just didn’t feel like the right way to proceed. I’m not sure they broke any laws or rules– the paper was free and there was no rule I knew of that stipulated how many copies you could take or what you had to do with them. But still… it just felt like a lame response. And I wondered how they’d respond if they saw conservative students tossing the papers they preferred into the trash.

    After a few weeks, the hubbub died down, they stopped tossing them in the garbage, and both papers co-existed side-by-side, at least until I graduated.

    This was before social media (I believe FB debuted on campus in 2004 but it was nothing like what it is now) and in a much less polarized age. It just sort of took care of itself.

    It sounds like the story described here is basically the 2022 version of this… everything was louder and bigger and more intense but in the end, a few loud and angry folks were resigned to being a few loud and angry folks and then probably just quiet and angry folks and eventually just whatever.Report

    • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

      It’s funny you mention this but you reminded me that the school paper, also left of center, at Big State Flagship where I went had a pro-Iraq invasion op-ed. I remember the general tenor among students was anti-invasion, anti-Bush, but I have no memory of it creating a particular controversy (I wrote a letter to the editor opposing it though that got published!).

      Of course I’m starting to think that the amount I can’t remember from college is itself insightful about what sort of issue we’re dealing with. There were piles of the paper strewn all over the place so if anyone did do a ‘throw it away’ campaign over this or any other issue it would have been totally unnoticeable.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

        This one was noticeable, in part because I knew the kids involved and in part because they stood outside the main dining hall jumping up and down and cheering as they gleefully tossed papers into the trash. Like, it wasn’t JUST about getting rid of it… but also of sending a message.

        At the time, the message I got was, “We struggle with challenging viewpoints.” And, again, these were friends of mine!

        I’m also now remembering that probably the most left-wing group on campus was literally called the “Social Justice Project.” They always seemed like mostly clowns, maybe because their main leader was a wannabe-hippy who liked to pretend he wasn’t a trust fund kid and who often drew the ire of the groups he claimed to be allying with because he always made a spectacle about himself rather than about actually making any sort of difference.

        He was also a dumb college kid, as we all were. I wonder where he is now…? I forgot his name.Report

  9. It would save time if Freddie de Boer, just like every other person who bemoans all of this, would state clearly and for the record what he actually means: it was better when some people weren’t talking, but now that they are talking, we need to return to the time when those people weren’t talking, because the only thing that will protect free speech is if nobody anywhere ever says anything that I personally disagree with.

    That’s the entirety of the “Cancel Culture” complaint, just like it was during the “Political Correctness” complaint twenty-five years ago. People unused to even thinking about the consequences of their words think that even thinking about them is the same as oppression.

    All of this wordy nonsense when a brief statement would make the point.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Sam Wilkinson says:

      Yeah there seems to be a lot of that going Around – even here on OT.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Sam Wilkinson says:

      The Venn diagram of people who demand that books by LGBTQ authors be banned, and the people who freak out over “cancel culture” is very nearly a perfect circle.Report

    • JS in reply to Sam Wilkinson says:

      I think there’s also a large swathe of “Kids theses days!” in there.

      I mean it’s the same as it always is. Those darn kids at those darn colleges, doing stupid Kid Stuff. When will they Grow Up and Be Serious and Agree With My Politics? If they don’t, this country will collapse! We’re seeing the end of our country, because Kids These Days! With their pronouns and their bisexuality and the fact they don’t think Seinfeld is cool! SEINFELD FOR GOD’S SAKE.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Sam Wilkinson says:

      “Cancel culture” is largely defined by two strands that critics (deliberately or not) conflate, and one of those strands is one that critics are very rarely willing to cop to in so many words, or even in any words at all.

      The first strand is people suffering social and economic consequences due to infractions that are captured and spread via social media, and where the campaign to impose those punishments is spread by a viral “piling on” which is driven as much by bandwagoning and schadenfreude as much as it is by genuine outrage. This can lead to damage that is not at all proportional to the severity of the original infraction. It may be there’s some measure of justice there, but if so it’s essentially accidental.

      #HasJustineLandedYet would be the paradigmatic example of this.

      The second thread is that espousing ideas that are mainstream in the Republican Party can lead to social and economic consequences for people in some environments, especially ones that have an “elite” coding. This includes academia, especially top tier R1s and SLACs, MSM outlets, Hollywood, and increasingly corporate C- and D-suites.

      Brandon Eich’s ouster from Mozilla is the paradigmatic example of the second sort of cancel culture.

      The first sort of cancel culture is Not Great, Actually, and though I think people get way too worried about it in much the way they tend to over-rate the danger posed by rare but scary events, I do think it’s something we should try to tamp down by adapting better social norms about propagating viral outrage and improving people’s understanding of the social media that they use.

      But the second kind of cancel culture? It’s World’s Smallest Violin time.Report

  10. North says:

    Great article Pillsy.Report

  11. Saul Degraw says:

    The thing that is bitterly funny about cancel culture freakouts from the right-wing is that they often end up eating their own than anything else. The most recent example is a LBGT YA author who had a nomination pulled from her for suggesting people read a book before commenting that it is transphobic. YA Twitter eats its own before anything else it seems.

    On the other hand, J.K. Rowling is still a billionaire. People are still trying to milk Harry Potter for all it is worth, and my straight-down Democratic voting friends who are parents are reporting that their young kids are developing Potter mania.Report

  12. CJColucci says:

    I’ve seen two dynamics that seem to drive the discussion of these issues.

    First, the elevation of imaginary rights no one has over the actual rights of real people.

    Second, the desire to experience the frisson of being a bold speaker of truth to power by taking on stupid college students, entertainers, and the English Department rather than the genuinely powerful and far effective suppressors of speech.

    None of which means people can’t be a******s, like all concerned in the Argus controversy, but taking on a******s for general a******ry on a case-by-case basis doesn’t seem to be enough.Report

  13. cam says:

    Strangely it makes me think of a similar episode in the late 80s, but the fire came from a different cultural side. My college (yes, I’m old enough to have been a student then) had a movie night and showed popular and/or critically acclaimed movies. Normally this was not controversial, but when “The Last Temptation of Christ” was announced as an upcoming movie you would have thought Satan himself had been invited as a guest speaker. Three evangelical student groups banded together to protest and also to demand the movie night be defunded for refusing to cancel the film.

    As I recall there were a lot of histrionic letters and editorials in the student paper and the quad I had to walk across was taken over by loud angry campus preachers as well as a number of equally loud hecklers for a few weeks, but a month later everyone had kinda forgotten the whole thing, being over taken with whatever the next controversy was (something less memorable since I don’t recall what it was anymore). Overall, it strikes me now as the kind of drama that young people are prone to, though certainly there were a number of older pundits echoing and/or driving a lot of the alarm, which I guess is to say that the more things change the more they stay the same. I’ve just reached the point of not feeling like college kids being college kids is anything to get all worked up about.Report

    • Chris in reply to cam says:

      Yeah, when I was in college, !%#$! years ago, left and right student groups fought a battle of cancelling attrition, with each winning an occasional battle to get someone cancelled (or deplatformed, defunded, or fired, or whatever), but mostly losing and looking ridiculous for trying.

      There are two examples from grad school that stand out: 1) pretty much everyone to the left of the far-right pro-life student group trying to get said student group’s 18-foot photo of a late-term aborted fetus taken off campus, and 2) another far-right student group basically offering bounties for the heads of professors who said anything in class that might offend conservatives (I believe they still have a web page for reporting such “incidents” even today).Report

      • cam in reply to Chris says:

        The giant fetus pictures… I think I purged those from active memory 😛

        There was also a minor war over billboard flyers where anti-abortion group one with fetus and eagle fetus-in-egg said something about why was the eagle was protected and the baby not. Someone or several someones made it a mission to mark over those something like ‘Eagles are endangered, largely because humans are not, [expletive for moron]’, which lead to predictable back and forth accusations/diatribes/hyped up offense/etc.

        Sometimes I think one of the things people should learn in college is that free speech is messy, and can easily reach levels of loud where most people plug their ears.Report

  14. Chip Daniels says:

    I know its not as important as a college speaker being made to feel uncomfortable for a few moments, but here is something on topic:
    “Designed to End Protesting”: Louisiana Supreme Court Makes Protesters Guilty by Association

    The court ruled that an advocate who helped organize a Black Lives Matter rally could be sued for events that took place during that rally, even though he was not involved. The case arose after a police officer was injured during a protest in Baton Rouge in 2016 and filed a lawsuit against DeRay Mckesson, a national advocate who had amplified and joined the demonstration. Mckesson rejected liability, saying his actions were protected by the First Amendment, but the court ruled against him in Friday’s 6-1 opinion. Report

    • cam in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      If that doesn’t get struck down by SCOTUS, I know a number of people in DC who will be suing certain trucker convoy organizers for all they are worth. I’m sure some DC cops will be filing for major liability claims against some folks on the right with both big platforms and deep pockets (which is why I’m positive even Thomas will rule against it).Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to cam says:

        Mr. Ginni “Jan 6” Thomas, ruling on whether an organizer of an event can be liable for injuries at that event, is something which promises to be interesting.Report

  15. When I was in high school, lo these many years ago, the school invited a psychic to come demonstrate his powers. I presumed he was a fake, but was looking forward to trying to figure out how he did it. However, a group of Christian students, who objected because his abilities were obviously Satanic in origin, got the invitation rescinded.Report

  16. GoneWrongRon says:

    Coming to this post late after reading several of De Boer’s straw man articles. He often conflates the actions of a tiny minority of college students with some ambiguous, unnamed left that supposedly has outsized influence in society. For a guy who loves to brag about how smart he is, he’s a tedious bore.Report