Re-Open the Asylums: A New Take

SarahStook

Sarah Stook is a writer based out of the UK who focuses on history and politics. She is a contributor to Elections Daily and The Mallard (UK).

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102 Responses

  1. Philip H
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    says:

    one of the things you missed – likely not well covered by UK media – is the cost factor, and the privatization of healthcare in the US, including mental healthcare. One of the main reasons that community care was successful in countering institutions is that private providers and insurance companies could use it as an additional profit stream, and in a world where every increasing profits means costs must be contained, driving down the payouts for treatment. Any discussion of options in the US needs to include this set of circumstances.

    Beyond that, welcome to writing on our side of the pond.Report

  2. Chris
    Ignored
    says:

    A small percentage of violent crime, and a slightly larger but still very small percentage of property crime, is committed by people experiencing homelessness. We’re currently in the midst of a moral panic in the U.S. over homelessness, for a variety of reasons, most of which have little to do with the actual experience of people in the world.

    This is not to say that there aren’t very real issues with homelessness, but if we’re choosing indefinite, involuntary commitment, then we’ve chosen not to address those issues, in favor of merely sweeping them under a rug, with a cruel broom.Report

  3. CJColucci
    Ignored
    says:

    We’re currently in the midst of a moral panic in the U.S. over homelessness, for a variety of reasons, most of which have little to do with the actual experience of people in the world.

    Replace “homelessness” with any number of buzzwords and this will be equally true. And if you dare point this out, there will be jokes about charts, mainly from people who snort in derision at the “lived experience” of Those People.Report

  4. Jaybird
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    says:

    NYC has done the whole “Congestion Pricing” thing that is one hell of an incentive to use public transportation instead of just driving.

    The absolute *WORST* that public transportation needs to be is “meh, what’s that smell?”

    No violence, no menacing, no rough youths smoking and listening to music loudly.

    A whole lot of the “blue no matter who” voters who were insulated from their compassionate public policy choices are going to be no longer insulated from them.

    And *THAT* is a recipe for “Guiliani, but with congestion pricing”.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      Have you been on the NYC subway system or DC Metro or even the light rail in Denver? In the last couple of years? No?

      See, what you and so many others conservatives in fly over country CONTINUE to miss about these systems is that most of what you see reported on Fox is an anomaly. It doesn’t happen every day. it doesn’t happen on every line much less every train. And so the people actually using those systems have no incentive to make them operate like you think they should – because they already do.

      I spent a decade commuting in DC and witnessed NONE of the things you think need to be done away with. At all times of day, well into the night, and on weekends. It happened so infrequently as to be a local running joke.

      All that aside, congestion pricing has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the very real crisis of mental health in this country. Its a weak, intellectually lazy distraction. There was a day I respected you enough to expect better.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        Well, I’m sure you’re familiar with the James Banks stabbing over the weekend or the loud music stabbing that happened on the 4th and the Daniel Penny trial.

        “It doesn’t happen every day”.

        It doesn’t have to happen every day. There are about 20 business days a month, right? 21? Sometimes 22?

        I’d say that once a month qualifies as “uncommon”.

        And having a bad interaction one day a month will be too often.

        “That’s less than 5% of the time!”, you can yell.

        “Wait, why are you voting for a Republican!?” you can ask, indignantly.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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          says:

          You will never get to zero unless you want to live in a Judge Dredd style police state. Which indeed you may. I don’t.

          However since you don’t ride Metro or the NYC subway or any of the other systems facing these issues I again remind you that what you see on the news is not representative of the experience of using them. They are the freak happenings that the “news media” prize because they drive engagement and thus profits. They are not the experiences of the riding public.

          And they have little to say regarding the state of mental health treatment in the US other then the profit driven system we have accepted is an abysmal failure. Going Judge Dredd on those people in the subway won’t fix that and thus no longer needs to be even remotely associated with the conversation.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            I don’t have to. I live in a nice place where I *NEVER* get threatened.

            *NEVER*.

            *I NEVER GET THREATENED IN COLORADO SPRINGS*

            Is this unthinkable to you?

            Let me blow your mind: If I live in a Judge Dredd style police state, it’s not so bad. It might even be worth exploring.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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              says:

              I’ve lived in NYC and used NYC subways, at all hours and usually running through dodgy neighborhoods, almost as long as you’ve been alive. I’ve been threatened twice. Neither incident came to anything. There is no reason to think that my experience is unusual, but if it bleeds it leads, so outsiders can easily wet themselves.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Oh, only twice? That’s twice more than I’ve been.

                Did you read about the lady who was set on fire on the subway?

                That was something *VERY* rare.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Are you seriously suggesting that two incidents, none particularly serious, in over four decades is something to wet myself — or for outsiders to wet themselves — over? You wouldn’t hold any policy or activity or location you favor to such a standard.
                And of course I read about the lady set on fire in the subway. I live here. They caught the guy who did it and, unless he has an insanity defense, he will be dealt with severely. Such crimes are, as you say, very rare. Do you seriously expect any sizable community to have zero homicides? If not, then what?Report

              • Philip H in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                You must be new around here . . .Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                “Are you seriously suggesting that two incidents, none particularly serious, in over four decades is something to wet myself over?”

                I guess if you want to breed a nation of sociopaths, then an attitude of “look sometimes you just get your life threatened in a public space, harden up and stop being such a crybaby about it” is a good way to go.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                Are you seriously suggesting that two incidents, none particularly serious, in over four decades is something to wet myself over? If so, why?Report

              • Philip H in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Because like Jay he wants Judge Dredd, mistakenly believing he would become a Judge.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Dude. I’m fifty something and I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t meet the fitness requirements.

                If I were to show up in a Judge Dredd comic, it’d be in this storyline.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                “Because like Jay he wants Judge Dredd, mistakenly believing he would become a Judge.”

                It’s always funny watching someone stupid misunderstand Judge Dredd, although usually it’s from the right-wing side.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                “Are you seriously suggesting that two incidents, none particularly serious, in over four decades is something to wet myself over?”

                One of the things people say about men, which I have come to believe is true, is that they’ve been trained by society to believe that trauma is wisdom and repression virtue.

                So like this, where your memory of those two incidents echoes today, where you’ve clearly recast your freeze response into a sign of strength and courage instead of admitting that you were scared stiff about it; an admission you’ve fled from so thoroughly that you now argue that everybody should have the same response in order to validate your own.

                Meaning: you’re lying to yourself that getting threatened on a subway was no big deal, but I don’t see why the rest of the world ought to believe your lie.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                You’re entitled to your own opinions, not to your own facts. And projection isn’t just something that happens in a movie theater.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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              says:

              The Springs – which i visit about once every 18 months – is in no way equivalent to NYC. None.

              The homicide rat is about 6.9 per 100,000. The homicide rate in NYC was 6.0 per 100,000 last year. The Springs is no more safe then NYC is.

              You are also never threatened on transit in the Springs because there is no transit.

              Nice try though.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                One of the strange things about most cities is that most of the violence is mostly limited to mostly a specific set of neighborhoods (if not a specific set of *BLOCKS* within the neighborhoods).

                And so people who aren’t playing the game can avoid the violence by avoiding those blocks (if not those neighborhoods entirely).

                Which is what makes shenanigans spilling out into public transit so potentially disruptive.

                If people who aren’t playing the game find themselves in a PvP area, they’re more likely to vote for Judge Dredd.

                If your various social shaming mechanisms are up to snuff, maybe you can stand up to this. But if there is reason to believe that the mechanisms are showing wear…Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                What mechanism is showing wear in a metropolitan area with a lower number of homicides per 100K people then you currently experience in the Springs?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                The whole “shaming” thing that used to be a lot better at making sure that people who had to ride public transit voted for compassionate politicians instead of Judge Dredd.

                (Did you know that the last time a Republican did this well in an election in New York was 1988? It’s true!)Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                shaming of public transit riders in NYC has never, to my knowledge, ever been a thing.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                No one who has spent more than half an hour on the NYC subways would think regular riders could be shamed.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        Yes to both. This is one of those weird things that should be a simple point of agreement: Public Transit Services should be better than they currently are. We don’t need to defend the slow deterioration of the Metro – both materially and experientially – as some sort of hidden benefit that we just need to dig a little deeper to appreciate. It’s worse, we all know it… if we’re pro-Transit and/or pro-Services, then acknowledging the decline should be part of the story for making it better.

        It’s not Thunderdome down below, but that’s not the bar that good services and public safety needs to stay under to be considered well run.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Marchmaine
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          says:

          Define Better. Then tell me how you want to pay for that “improvement.” Then tell me why your proposed improvements MIGHT improve anything for a patron experiencing a mental health crisis.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            Heh, so at least we can agree that these systems need improvement that will cost money and are part of the mental health crisis. That’s the common agreement that we should start from.

            Fixing? Sure that’s hard, but it’s better to say we have all of these problems and we should begin to address them than to tell people they are being silly and participating in a Moral Panic ™.Report

            • InMD in reply to Marchmaine
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              says:

              I don’t really understand why removing people for long established remove-able conduct is deemed something that requires a lot of chin scratching.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                Seems to me it’s now just part of the silly polarization cycle… Team Blue feels like Team Red is scoring points on Urban Blue Hubs… so Team Blue *must* defend the system as-is lest Team Red score a point somewhere. It’s the weirdest thing.

                I mean, both sides do it, but that’s just exhibit #4,583,221 why we need out of this duopoly.Report

              • Chris in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                There is yet a third option, which rejects the involuntary commitment of people experiencing homelessness but which recognizes that something should be done, both to make transit safer (which isn’t simply a matter of getting rid of the homeless) and to help people experiencing homelessness get off the streets, get off drugs, get treated for mental illness, etc. Since this third position, or really set of positions, doesn’t score easy political points, it is largely ignored.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Chris
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                says:

                Sure, I reckon there are more than only three options for most things; I’d prefer more vectors of pressure for policy discussions that merely us or them.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chris
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                says:

                I suspect strongly that you can’t do all of those things at the same time.

                “Involuntary” is a massive trade off because there will be people who insist on making bad choices.

                You can treat everyone if you have “involuntary”, or you can not have involuntary and accept some people will refuse to make good choices.Report

              • Chris in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                There is no one system that will fix everything. We know that for the majority of people experiencing homelessness, some variety of permanent supportive housing, which includes social workers, mental health professionals, treatment for drug and alcohol abuse, help with jobs/careers, etc., works. It’s very expensive, though, and the permanent part is important: for most people it doesn’t meant anything like forever, but it does mean longer than we and they probably think is necessary.

                Some other people require more intense mental health care or substance abuse treatment before they can get to a point at which housing makes sense, and some of these people probably need to be institutionalized, likely against their will. But again, this group is a small percentage of the overall homeless population, and even a small percentage of the overall mentally ill homeless population (heard someone who works with people experiencing homelessness once say, “If a person is not mentally or a substance abuser when they become homeless, they will be within a few weeks.”). With our current mental health system, at least, I see no way of avoiding this. But involuntary institutionalization is best used as a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                says:

                There isn’t a silver bullet to fix everything?

                Well, that just opens the door to focus on the biggest problem and resolving that and acknowledging that other problems will exist but the most important one will have its worst parts sanded off.

                Kind of a relief, when you put it like that.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Surely there will be no disagreeents about what the biggest problems are and how to resolve them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                says:

                We should just assume that the biggest problem is the one with the most moral salience.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Says the guy who freely admits that what others see as moral issues are, to him, merely aesthetics.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                You’re almost there, Phil. You’re almost there.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I don’t want to be where you are. Its a world devoid of right and wrong and is an insult to everything I’ve ever learned or believed. That clear enough for you?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                No, you misunderstand. I *DO* believe in right and wrong. It’s just that I have a different set of values than you do.

                You can’t interpret the fact that I have different values as anything but amorality.

                I don’t see this as a limitation on my part, for the record.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                on the VERY RARE occasions you make statements of moral position it takes us hours to days to tease them out of you. You desire to cast everything as an aesthetic question makes determining your values nearly impossible.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Eh, for the most part, I find most moral statements to be closer to moral assertions that weigh this more than that and arguments that you should weigh that more than this usually won’t go anywhere.

                I find it more useful, under most circumstances, to point out stuff like “if you do X, Y will happen”.

                And then people can tell me that Y *OUGHT NOT* happen, usually indignantly.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Doing X can lead to Y, Z, Q, E, and even A. You are no more assured of the outcome breaking your way then I am of it breaking my way.

                Do you remember when the election didn’t break my way what I said? No? I said I was wrong about America and what we valued.

                I can’t ever remember you saying your aesthetics were wrong.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                You must be new around here.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to InMD
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                says:

                “I don’t really understand why removing people for long established remove-able conduct is deemed something that requires a lot of chin scratching.”

                Because the assumption is that their conduct is not actually “remove-able”, that this whole concern over behavior on public transit is nothing but a bunch of Karens being upset that black men exist.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Marchmaine
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              says:

              They are being silly and participating in a moral panic in as much as they want to deploy more police to the subways to make them sterile rather then fund actual treatment.

              You and I also don’t agree on the need for improvements to transit systems, which is why I asked you to lay out what you thought those improvements should be. We do agree that any change would cost money.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                What do you think a transit system is for?

                I am being sincere in this question, because I think it may shed light on where the disagreements are.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD
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                says:

                Its for enabling economic activity by moving large numbers of people efficiently through an urban environment.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Economic activity might (and I stress might) be a positive externality. At it’s most basic level it’s for moving people around. Maybe there’s a secondary purpose of getting congestion off big roads. But that’s it, and that’s what it needs to be operated as, and thought of as.

                The second you start trying to prop it up as something else, whether that be a jobs program or a makeshift homeless shelter and/or looney bin, is the second you start losing the case for keeping it.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD
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                says:

                you and I mostly agree here – though the need to move that volume of people absent economic activity seems vanishingly small.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            Then tell me why your proposed improvements MIGHT improve anything for a patron experiencing a mental health crisis.

            “How will voting for a Judge Dredd Republican improve anything for a patron temporarily experiencing a non-traditional mental state?”

            “The problem I was trying to solve by voting for Judge Dredd was the problem of non-traditional mentally stated temporary experiencers.”Report

          • InMD in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            The Friday before last me and a buddy of mine took our sons to the museum of natural history. We took metro, which in my experience matches March’s description of slow decline rather than the insanity you hear about in other cities. I have a station right near me and am on it for one reason or another every other month or so.

            My experience this time would have been improved if the transit cop and/or station manager stopped and cited the group of 6 or 8 rowdy kids who clumsily jumped the supposedly now jump resistant entry barriers. Instead they just stared off into space like nothing was happening.

            I also had an experience on the way to a Caps game last year (a Sunday afternoon game) where an apparently crazed person yelled profanity at my son for about a third of the ride. Removing him would have been good.

            Is this the stuff of Fox News outrage? Not really. But I also have no idea why anyone would be interested in defending this kind of thing.Report

            • Philip H in reply to InMD
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              says:

              I’m interested in defending it because:

              1) having moved to a transit desert (where the remnants of the red lined racial discriminatory routes no longer serve anyone) I want to see transit use expanded across the US.

              2) having ridden Metro of the decade i lived in DC – and multiple times a year since on returns for work – I detest the reporting of such systems as contributing to, much less being, hellscapes.

              3) I’m weary of the significant mismatch in mental health needs and mental health spending being laid t the feet of the mentally unwell, much less used as a distraction to indict the existing transit infrastructure. I do not agree that you solve the mental problems of people on the Metro by over policing them within the Metro.

              As to your turn style jumpers – best I can tell that’s been a feature of subway systems since they were dug. Probably best to just chuckle about it and move on.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I meant defending the people that do this sort of thing.

                In terms of the metro system itself I am the one defending it. I want to take my family on it and the best way to make sure I can is for the authorities to remove blatant scofflaws and obviously crazy people.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                “As to your turn style jumpers – best I can tell that’s been a feature of subway systems since they were dug. ”

                should people who break the law be punished y/n

                “having ridden Metro of the decade i lived in DC – and multiple times a year since on returns for work – I detest the reporting of such systems as contributing to, much less being, hellscapes.”

                interesting, tell me more about how problems you haven’t personally experienced do not exist

                “I do not agree that you solve the mental problems of people on the Metro by over policing them within the Metro.”

                what do you think “getting mentally-ill people the help they need” looks like for those who are too injured by their mental state to voluntarily seek treatmentReport

      • John Puccio in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        On NYC subway and mass transit, felony assaults were up 65% from 2019 to 2024, according to the MTA. In 2019, 374 felony assaults were reported, while in 2024, 579 were reported. 43 people have been murdered in the subway system since March 2020.

        People notice that crime in the subway is far worse than it use to be because it is.Report

        • Philip H in reply to John Puccio
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          says:

          On NYC subway and mass transit, felony assaults were up 65% from 2019 to 2024, according to the MTA. In 2019, 374 felony assaults were reported, while in 2024, 579 were reported. 43 people have been murdered in the subway system since March 2020.

          So with 3.6 million riders a day in NYC, that’s 1.586 felony assaults per day and any given rider has a 4.405555e-5 percent chance of being assaulted. Yep definitely a hellscape where the transit police need to be empowered to immediately kill anyone having mental health issues.Report

          • John Puccio in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            When did noticing that crime in the subway is objectively worse than it was pre-pandemic become advocating a purge-style elimination of the mentally ill?

            Also, how many assaults/murders would it take for you to concede that their might be a problem?

            I don’t get your angle.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to John Puccio
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              says:

              How many interactions with police that result in deaths is too many?

              Compare to the number of women set on fire by illegal immigrants that would be deemed too many.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Homicides are homicides, regardless of unusual methods. How many homicides are too many? Would you prefer eliminating one particularly grisly or politically convenient homicide to eliminating a few dozen “normal” homicides of the type that happen everywhere every day? If not, why not?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                So that’s what my choices are?

                While it’s awful that the guy burned the woman to death, preventing it would have resulted in dozens of murders elsewhere?

                I can easily see that that’s not a price that anyone should be willing to pay.

                She was a sacrifice, in a way, if you look at the world like that.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                No, your choice is not to make it a phony quantitative issue. I take the liberty of cutting and pasting:

                How many interactions with police that result in deaths is too many?

                Compare to the number of women set on fire by illegal immigrants that would be deemed too many.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                You can’t prevent every murder.

                Full stop.

                You can minimize the chances, which is what NYC has done, or so the statistics tell us.

                those two facts say nothing, nada, zero, zilch about whether murder should be acceptable.

                Because it’s not. Not to me, or CJ or anyone else. The key difference here is we see your preferred Judge Dredd society response as morally wrong because it won’t do anything but cause further immoral outcomes.

                All because you think crime can be eliminated since you never experience it in the Springs.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                “You can’t prevent every murder. Full stop.”

                it’s a hell of a long way from “sometimes we fail” to “therefore we shouldn’t try”, particularly when your assertion is that the only reason we even try is racismReport

            • Philip H in reply to John Puccio
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              says:

              Jaybird’s contention is that violence had to be eliminated from public transit for the “blue no matter who” crowd to avoid any negative experiences from congestion pricing that might be relate tangentially to a perhaps increase in transit ridership. My angle is that the increase you are highlighting is so statistically small across the entire system and ridership that I don’t believe it’s really noticeable and would be unremarkable absent “if it bleeds it leads” news coverage. 3.6 million people aren’t going to notice 1.6 of anything happening unless someone shows it to them. And the only reason I can find why anyone would show it to them – much less try to make policy on it – is if they wanted to use scare tactics to achieve a political end they couldn’t achieve via rational analysis.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                That is not how I would phrase my contention, no.

                As such, I’m pretty skeptical that anything that follows from the faulty beginning ends up in the right place.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                NYC has done the whole “Congestion Pricing” thing that is one hell of an incentive to use public transportation instead of just driving.

                The absolute *WORST* that public transportation needs to be is “meh, what’s that smell?”

                No violence, no menacing, no rough youths smoking and listening to music loudly.

                A whole lot of the “blue no matter who” voters who were insulated from their compassionate public policy choices are going to be no longer insulated from them.

                And *THAT* is a recipe for “Guiliani, but with congestion pricing”.

                That’s how you framed it. What did I get wrong?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I’ve ridden the NYC subways for nearly as long as Jaybird has been alive — a testament to his good luck in violent Colorado Springs — and haven’t been “insulated” from anything. We have had upticks in subway violence before and beaten them back with intelligent policing. That’s how Bill Bratton made his bones here. We’ll manage it again — without “help” from outsiders with their panties in a twist.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                “We have had upticks in subway violence before and beaten them back with intelligent policing. ”

                oh hey look at that

                policing the subways is necessary after allReport

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                If you want to argue with someone who doesn’t think we need cops in the subways, have at it. The voices in your head don’t count. though.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                You’re framing it about the need for them to avoid negative experiences.

                I’m framing it as being about how they’re going to start voting the second they start participating in those negative experiences.

                I mean, Trump gained 6 points in NY between 2020 and 2024 *PRIOR* to some of the most egregious recent events (despite their rarity).

                He swung Clinton, Nassau, and Rockland, county and gained 10(!) points in Kings County and, get this, IN WESTCHESTER.

                If I wanted to make Westchester vote Republican, you know what I’d do?

                I’d make the trains crappy.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                You’re framing it about the need for them to avoid negative experiences.

                So did you:

                The absolute *WORST* that public transportation needs to be is “meh, what’s that smell?”

                No violence, no menacing, no rough youths smoking and listening to music loudly.

                A whole lot of the “blue no matter who” voters who were insulated from their compassionate public policy choices are going to be no longer insulated from them.

                I’m framing it as being about how they’re going to start voting the second they start participating in those negative experiences.

                Except by your own writing they have already switched votes and are not yet facing any change due to the pricing idea.

                So which is it?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                “they have already switched votes”

                Some have. Not all.

                There’s still a whole bunch who remain insulated from their own compassion.

                I remember, in the days following the woman being burned to death, a bunch of people complaining about how nobody stepped in to do anything. They just filmed it.

                You wanna guess as to what the number one response to the complaint was?

                You do *NOT* want more people thinking “I wish someone would step in”.

                And I have no freakin’ idea why this observation is anything but trivial.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                There’s still a whole bunch who remain insulated from their own compassion.

                And there will still be a whole bunch of them thusly “insulated” after congestion pricing.

                You wanna guess as to what the number one response to the complaint was?

                You do *NOT* want more people thinking “I wish someone would step in”.

                And I have no freakin’ idea why this observation is anything but trivial.

                Also an outcome that won’t be impacted by congestion pricing. And an especially bad example given the extreme rarity of the event.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                I imagine that this will be measurable.

                If I am right, there will be a movement to recall/replace some DAs in NYC before… oh… let’s give it human gestation.

                9 months.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                You imagine a lot of interesting things Jaybird. Currently you are imagining that the imposition of congestion pricing will somehow force Westchester Democrats to vote for Republicans in some sort of Don Quixote’esque quest to have to avoid encountering mentally unstable people on the subway in a city with fewer murders per capita then your own beloved Colorado Springs. Which might well amuse you but does nothing at all to further any sort of solution of the issues of mental health the OP layed out.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Again, I imagine that this sort of thing is measurable.

                What’s one way to measure it? Well, see if there is a Chesa-like movement to change the DA to one that will show less compassion to troubled people who only need a cup of noodles and a kind word.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                The incumbent Democratic Westchester DA, who would have won, did not stand for re-election. The Democratic candidate to replace her won handily. All without American Carnage (TM) tough talk.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                I am still curious as to what will happen over the next nine months.

                Maybe you’re right.

                Maybe New Yorkers are indifferent to the current level of disorder.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                What’s supposed to happen in Westchester in September?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                Allow me to copy/paste what I said:

                “If I am right, there will be a movement to recall/replace some DAs in NYC before… oh… let’s give it human gestation.”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                There won’t be a recall movement then, if for no better reason (and there is a much better one — like most older states we don’t have recall elections) than that the Manhattan DA comes up for re-election in the ordinary course in November 2025. There will be some sacrificial lamb to run as a Republican, but nobody is currently making noises about challenging Bragg in the June primary, which would be cutting it pretty close. Even the New York Post, which despises Bragg, thinks he’s a shoo-in for re-election.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Your crime on the subway isn’t real angle seems eerily similar to the inflation isn’t real angle that I read in the OT comments so often the past 3+ years.

                Violent crime, petty crime, homelessness – all increased materially since 5 years ago. And if *you* ride the subway and have not been victimized, the number of people who know a victim or witnessed such a crime has also proportionately increased. Violence leaves its mark well beyond those on the direct receiving end.

                What’s funny to me is that this isn’t a partisan issue in NYC. The city is as deep blue as can be. It’s an acknowledgement of facts on the ground, both quantified in the aggregate and lived through personal experience and observation.

                Do you really think hardened NYers who take the subway everyday are only responding to scare tactics created by the media?

                Next thing you’ll tell me is that the MTA doesn’t have a crime problem, but a messaging problem.Report

              • Philip H in reply to John Puccio
                Ignored
                says:

                The crime that exists on the nYC subway – and on every other major mass transit system – may have increased measurably (since most anything can be measured) but that doesn’t mean its a significant increase nor that it would actually be noticed by riders absent media hype. I mean you can doubt my statistical analysis all you want, but Our resident NYC subway riders refute your story with their actual experience.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                But Philip, the “actual experience” of people who actually experience things (or don’t experience things) doesn’t count as much as the “actual experience” of people not in a position to have actual experience or who are demonstrably wrong about what they think they are experiencing.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                This is the “why do you care if someone else in a different car was stabbed” move.

                “How does a woman being burned to death on the subway affect you *PERSONALLY*?”Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Well he’s one of the 3.6 million people who was on the subway that day (or could have been). But sure, lets dismiss his real life in favor of dissing the tastes of people who might be willing to tolerate the aesthetics of really rare, freakishly rare, crimes because it doesn’t actually change the underlying issues or their actual real lives.

                Since all we need to debate are aesthetics masquerading as morals.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                If we don’t have a shared moral language, we probably want to hammer that down before we start explaining that, statistically, almost *ZERO* women were burned to death to the point where, technically, we shouldn’t see it as having happened.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                when you share your moral positions on something then we can hammer that out.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                For one thing, I think that crime is bad and we, as a society, should put forward more resources into making sure that women aren’t set on fire, even if it is statistically rare that it happens.

                And that thinking such things shouldn’t be confused with amorality.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I think crime is bad too. That’s a moral statement.

                So is the idea that throwing more money at it won’t fix what’s wrong, because what’s wrong is that policing can’t solve the underlying drives of crime.

                Like I said though, you can not drive the occurrence of crime to absolute zero. Even in the Judge Dredd distopia that you seem to favor.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                There is no policy of putting “more resources into making sure that women are not set on fire.” There are policies that can reduce assaults and homicides generally, whether by normal or more exotic means, but they are expensive, require intelligence, and are unlikely to satisfy bloodlust.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                …I’m not arguing that we throw more money at it.

                “INCREASE THE BUDGET!” is a punchline. You may recall me mocking it in our discussions of education policy.

                I assure you, I’m not talking about increasing the budget.

                Neither am I arguing for a Judge Dredd dystopia… but I’m more than happy enough to argue that “arresting criminals and trying them” probably sounds like fascism to someone sufficiently compassionate.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Do you ever read your own stuff?

                I’m not arguing that we throw more money at it.

                For one thing, I think that crime is bad and we, as a society, should put forward more resources into making sure that women aren’t set on fire, even if it is statistically rare that it happens.

                I’m more than happy enough to argue that “arresting criminals and trying them” probably sounds like fascism to someone sufficiently compassionate.

                We have NOT nationally or locally stopped doing that.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Read his own stuff? Why should that be any different?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                We *HAVE* resources, Phil. They’re being used poorly and to poor ends.

                Use them less poorly and you’ll find yourself with better outcomes (though you’ll probably still find yourself screaming about Nazis).Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Which resources other then additional money would you redeploy from where to prevent another woman from being set on fire?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Why would you think a silly thing like that? Try re-reading.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                As weak as your statistical analysis is, your reliance on one anecdotal data point as proof is far weaker.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H
        Ignored
        says:

        It doesn’t happen every day.

        let’s start with the 2023 rate of one reported violent incident for every 280,000 rides. Then imagine that you take the subway about 10 times a week, resulting in 500 rides per year. Also assume that you can see 20 riders whenever you take the train – if anything, a conservative assumption. Finally, let’s say you keep in regular contact with about 30 people who live in New York and have the same subway ridership habits.

        You still have a low probability — about 1-in-500 — of being a victim of a reported violent crime yourself… You have a 1-in-30 chance of seeing a violent crime unfolding on the subway over the course of the year. And across your community of 30 people, there’s about a two-thirds chance that someone you know will have seen or experienced a violent crime unfolding on the train.

        https://www.vitalcitynyc.org/articles/how-rare-is-crime-on-the-subwayReport

        • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter
          Ignored
          says:

          next time you quote me, include the whole thing:

          It doesn’t happen every day. it doesn’t happen on every line much less every train. And so the people actually using those systems have no incentive to make them operate like you think they should – because they already do.

          And his math doesn’t add up.Report

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