Sleepwalking Towards Another Trump Presidency
Unless something dramatically changes in the political environment in the next four months, we are headed towards a second Trump presidency. Its as simple as that.
I haven’t written on here about an election-related event since Biden’s inauguration. In the four years since I started reviewing movies, making predictions for the Oscars, and joined two critics groups. But just because I put down my amateur psephology hat in favor of a film critic one doesn’t mean I haven’t been paying attention this whole time. I’ve been doing my own personal polling averages on excel to keep track of public opinion. I followed the bad 2021 off-year elections for Democrats, the Democratic overperformance in the 2022 midterms, and last year’s good off-year elections for Democrats. I saw Biden poll as a popular President for about seven months, and I’ve seen his numbers refuse to shift from the negative range since the Fall of 2021. And in the last couple of months I’ve been feeling like a bystander watching a sinking ship heading straight towards an iceberg that will finish the job while friends and acquaintances of mine have been assuring me that Joe Biden will beat Donald Trump again – making me feel like I’ve been living in a different reality than everyone else as I pour through the data I’m inputting into my spreadsheets. This anxiety is why I decided to become a full-time film critic instead.
As those who have read my past pieces on elections or public opinion know I am extremely data driven; my saying is and always has been “I trust the polls until they’re proven wrong.” And in particular I am a student of following historical trends as well. It’s that kind of mindset that lead me to become increasingly bullish on Democrats to pull off a midterm wave in 2018, and made me think the 2020 race was Biden’s to lose going all the way back to when he entered the Democratic primary. Not to say I’m some nostradamus either. I was wrong about Hillary winning like everyone else, I was wrong when I thought polling error would be less in 2020 than in 2016, and as time has passed I’ve been wondering what drugs I was on to believe neither Biden nor Trump would run again when I wrote my last psephology article – something I realized pretty early into Biden’s term was a fantasy to have ever thought.
I feel compelled to write about this election now because I feel like the disaster that was the first debate woke people up to something I’ve been seeing for months – Trump is likely going to win this rematch. My X feed on debate night was reminiscent of election night 2016, and as I watched the horrified reactions from left-leaning accounts all I could think to myself was “Now you guys are starting to realize Biden is in trouble?!”. We’ve been sleepwalking towards a second Trump term for some time now, and it’s like the debate suddenly woke a bunch of folks up to that (I think very likely) possibility.
Am I saying that Biden has absolutely no chance at all to still win this? Not necessarily. There’s still some things in his favor that could help him down the stretch, and I’ll get to those. But at a certain point you can’t keep looking at where the chips are falling and tell yourself this is a pure toss-up race. We have arrived in a territory where if Biden were to come back and win this, it would arguably be a once-in-a-lifetime black swan event given incumbents in his position with four months to go outright lose their reelection bids. At best for Biden this presidential election is currently rated Tilts R, but in my opinion it’s probably more along the lines of a Lean to Likely R race with the caveat that Republicans have nominated the one dude who could still lose this anyways. And make no mistake about it, if Trump loses then it will be an all-timer in electoral choke jobs. More on this later.
In this piece I will go point-by-point on why I objectively believe with four months to go the election should be considered leaning Trump’s way, why Biden would need to pull off a historic comeback these next four months of the likes we’ve never seen in the modern age to win, and if there’s any chance for Biden to still pull this out what would be the small miracles that could help him do that.
– Other Than Being A Rematch, This Is Not 2020
2024 is the first presidential rematch between the same two candidates from the previous cycle in 68 years, and this time around the winner of the previous campaign is on his heels while the previous loser has advantages he didn’t have previously. Other than the two same men going at it, 2024 is not 2020.
In 2020 against a backdrop of a country at social unrest, dealing with a pandemic that crippled the economy, and an unpopular Republican president that wasn’t even voted for by the plurality of voters in 2016, the mood in the air was change and the well-liked and respected challenger was winning on various fronts. Then-challenger Biden was leading the national and swing state polls by clear margins, had more paths to 270 than the incumbent, was favored in every type of forecast for the election, was competing against an incumbent with negative job approval ratings who he happened to have much better favorable ratings than, was being picked by poll respondents as the more physically fit and mentally healthy of the two, was the most trusted on honesty and almost all of the top issues of the race, and had clear leads in polling on who was seen as the debates’ winner. The only advantage then incumbent Trump had was incumbency, an electoral college bias, and a good approval rating on his handling of the Economy.
Now in 2024 against a backdrop of a country going through some great economic growth and low unemployment, the consumer sentiment nevertheless is mediocre and incumbent Biden’s approval ratings on the economy have been wrecked thanks to a decades-worst inflation crisis that has taken years to cool. The now-challenging Trump leads in the national and swing state polls by modest but consistent margins, has more paths to 270 than the incumbent and seems to still have the electoral college bias on his side, is favored in most forecasts for the election, is competing against an incumbent with negative job approval ratings who he happens to have better favorable ratings than, is being picked by poll respondents as the more physically fit and mentally healthy of the two, is trusted on most of the top issues of the race, and has a clear lead on who won the first debate of the campaign. The only advantage Biden has is incumbency, the fact most fundamentals-based models predict him to win, experts are still rating the race winnable for him, and he still leads on questions of character.
The table I’ve provided below only makes it more clear how much has switched around in Trump’s favor this time around versus four years ago. Folks who keep treating this like an apple-to-apples comparison to 2020 are pricing in Biden advantages that are just not there anymore. This is a pretty stunning reversal of fortune given we are talking about a rematch, and both the 2016 and 2020 Trump campaigns could have only dreamed to have as much in their favor as they clearly do this time around.
– Biden Isn’t Just Unpopular, He’s Losing Re-Election Unpopular
You might argue four months is a long time for a campaign to still be decided, and while I wouldn’t completely disagree it’s kind of hard to see a dramatic shift in the political environment in just four months. If you ever do see dramatic shifts in the race it tends to happen more with volatile open-seat races than the incumbent seeking re-election cycles that become referendums on the guy in the White House. It’s not that presidents can’t get more popular in the final four months, in fact Presidents usually get more popular the closer we get to election day, but presidents as unpopular as Biden is at this point in the race don’t tend to win re-election.
Since 1948 only three presidents were posting under 50% approval ratings this far out and still won re-election. Two of those three are Bush the son in 2004 and Obama in 2012, who were both in the high 40s and had advantages in the polls and forecast models then that Biden currently does not. Biden is in a much more precarious spot way down in the thirties as I write this piece; the same spot presidents Carter, Bush the father, and Trump were four months before they lost their respective re-election bids. The president that has had approvals close to as low as Biden has at this point in the race and still won is Truman back in 1948. And the kicker is Truman’s disapproval rating at the time was actually just 44% thanks to a large number of those with no opinion on the president. In comparison Biden’s disapprovals are in the high fifties. Which means if Biden comes back and somehow wins this, we are talking about him doing a much more impressive come-from-behind win than the most infamous come-from-behind win in U.S political history.
In four months Biden historically needs to be at around 50%+ to win re-election. Only Truman has had worse numbers and still won, and once again there’s a kicker when it comes to the example of him – Truman’s final approval rating before election day was found in the summer and not late October as pollsters back then didn’t poll the president’s job ratings while polling the horse race. At 38% with four months to go, Biden is very unlikely to suddenly become popular by election day. It’s one thing to come back from such numbers over a long period, but in dramatic fashion in just a few months in the middle of intense polarization? I have my doubts.
– Hated And Convicted Felon Trump Is Less Unpopular Overall Than Biden
There is the argument that Biden doesn’t need to get his job approval numbers in the positive range to win re-election because of Trump’s weaknesses and own unpopularity, but there’s an issue with that thought – Biden currently has worse favorable ratings than Trump. Biden has been averaging favorable ratings over at 538 of around -18. Trump’s favorable rating average in comparison? -11. Both awful numbers but Trump is enjoying the lead in the favorability gap, something he didn’t have in either 2016 or 2020.
Soak that in. A convicted felon has higher favorable ratings than the sitting president of the United States. And keep in mind these same polls have shown most respondents agree with the jury verdict on Trump’s conviction, so it’s not even a situation where the electorate is sympathetic to Trump’s legal plights. Polling also makes it clear Biden wins most questions on honesty and character. But polling has also shown that Biden’s age issues are of more of a concern to voters than the conviction or how they think of the candidates’ personal morals.
I personally don’t for one bit buy Biden is senile and out of it mentally; I do buy he’s not as sharp as he used to be and looks and sounds like a man in his eighties. But the electorate at large does believe Biden is too old and out of it, to the point they prefer a convicted felon to him because they are that convinced he’s not fit for office. If Biden is to pull off what I’d argue would be a historic comeback, he’d have to change this perception and I just find it hard to see how he does that given the debate only made concerns about his age and mental health expand even further among the electorate.
– Incumbents Trailing At The Start Of July Almost Always Go On To Lose
Another argument one might choose in favor of a Biden comeback is that he’s staying competitive in polling and trails by small margins. I would agree that could be a legit glimmer of hope for him. The guy is incredibly unpopular and yet still remains competitive. However going back in polling history I found that successfully re-elected incumbents almost always lead at this point in the race. The only aberrations being Truman in 1948 of course, and Bush the son having a rough Summer in 2004. That said, there is something to note about the fact the table below highlights how things can still shift in horse race polling between now and November. But also note how small the shifts between the final four months have been post Clinton’s reelection. Based on the history, Biden could take a two point deficit and change it to a two point lead (which would put an electoral college misfire in play), or we can see Trump’s lead grow to four points. Out of all the negative trends I’ve found for Biden this one is easily his most realistic to turn around, but the numbers are pretty clear that it’s not nothing either that he is trailing with four months left.
PS: I should probably also point out that while plenty of incumbents have lost the first debate and still gone on to win the election (Reagan, W Bush, Obama), those examples all lead polls by the time of the debate. Those who trailed going into and lost the debate (Ford, Carter, HW Bush, Trump) all went on to lose the election. Biden is in the group of the latter.
– Americans Remain In An Elongated Period Of Anti Status Quo Sentiment
One thing to keep in mind about the mood of the electorate is that regardless who has been in power, Americans have been unhappy with the state of the nation more than not post the 2004 Bush re-election. Since then only twice has a sitting president been in the green in approval numbers in time for an election. Thus, the party that has held the White House has arguably last seen a good year nearly twelve years ago during the 2012 Obama re-election that saw Democrats hold the White House and senate. Every single cycle since has seen the party that controls the executive branch lose control of something. Democrats lost the Senate in 2014 and then the White House in 2016. Republicans lost the house in 2018 and then both the White House and senate in 2020. Democrats then lost the house in 2022. That’s a long period of anti status quo sentiment and unfortunately for Biden it seems to have only stuck around this cycle. There’s been a persistent malaise among voters in the country that has gone back a decade-plus. It kind of makes Obama’s 2012 triumph only look more impressive in hindsight.
My thinking had been this streak has to eventually come to an end, in the same way I kept pondering that we were getting overdue for an incumbent President losing their re-election bid going into the 2020 cycle; or being arguably overdue for a quieter less wave-type midterm going into 2022. But with just four months to go the electorate is not happy and when the electorate is not happy it doesn’t tend to be good for the party in the White House. Even if you bring up Democrats’ overperformance in 2022, it doesn’t change the fact Biden’s unpopularity cost them the house. It’s very hard for me to see how Biden can win re-election if this mood amongst voters doesn’t change dramatically in the coming weeks and months of the campaign.
But after watching Bush and Obama have to fight for their e-elections, and watching Trump go down to defeat, it has not been since Clinton’s 1996 re-election twenty-eight years ago that we’ve seen an incumbent basically cruise-control to a second term. I was really curious if the right pieces would land on the board to make this streak of competitive races for the incumbents end, but it seems like I’ll have to wait a little longer to see another such easy win for a sitting president happen again.
– Is There Any Hope Biden Can Still Come From Behind And Win This?
Clearly there’s a lot of troubling signs for Biden’s chances to win this rematch. But to be fair there are some legitimate potential silver linings for the president that in hindsight could prove to tell us a comeback was plausible. So I listed as many as I could find…
1. It’s extremely rare for an incumbent who defeated their predecessor to lose re-election. It’s happened literally twice in a century – in 1980 when Reagan ousted Carter who ousted Ford in 1976, and in 1892 when Cleveland ousted Harrison who ousted Cleveland himself in 1888.
2. We tend to re-elect our incumbents. A little over 60% of the time we have re-elected our incumbent presidents going all the way back to Washington, and that figure only goes up when only looking at the modern age post-WWII era.
3. Overall economic indicators actually favor a Biden re-election. Public sentiment about the economy is in the dumps and inflation has hurt wallets, but objective economic data would historically point to a 2-4 point Biden victory according to the latest numbers from models that look at this.
4. Non-polling based, historical-trends based predictive models, with great track records, are bullish on Biden. This includes a hobbyist model I created that strictly looks at historical trends, and even with accounting for the history against Biden when it comes to his deep unpopularity, it currently shows Biden is 59% likely to win if I don’t account for current head-to-head polling (Should note this number becomes a 53% likelihood of a Trump win if I did include them).
5. Biden is massively over-performing his approval ratings in ways past presidents could only dream of, thanks to staying competitive with soft disapprovers and “double haters”. As of this writing Biden is over-performing his approval ratings versus his horse race numbers by double digit margins.
6. Biden’s get-out-the vote and on-the-ground operations have been outpacing Trump’s since the start of the year. Biden has field offices across various swing states and reach states including defenses set up in leaning blue states that could get tight. Trump is just getting around to doing this work. In 2020 Trump’s overperformance could have been linked to his team having a better field operation thanks to how both campaigns confronted COVID so differently.
7. With likely lower turnout than the previous election, 2024 could see a repeat of 2022 where persuadable, more college educated, in-tuned with the news, voters help Biden to overperform expectations. Polling and special election trends are clear that lower turnout scenarios would be beneficial for Biden.
8. Presidents tend to get more popular and win late-deciders the closer we get to election day. With Biden’s base so fragmented it’s easy to see a late surge in younger, non-white voters “coming back home”.
9. Since 1992, all but one time (1996), the incumbent president has over-performed polling expectations whether in victory or defeat. Easy to see a scenario Biden is down by 1-2 points come election day but squeaks by with a typical poll error that sees him win by 1-2 points nationally and barely edge out an electoral college win with a slightly reduced electoral college bias from 2020 (Something current modeling over at 538 thinks is likely).
10. Democrats are over-performing down the ballot at some breathtaking levels. The same polls showing Biden in deep trouble show Republicans barely flipping the senate with losses in some major swing states, and still having a very weak house majority. This could be a sign of the room to grow for Biden, or the success of these down-ballot Democratic candidates might actually drag him across the finish line in a perfect storm of circumstances.
11. Trump is still Trump. While currently less unpopular than Biden, his favorables are still not good and no successful challenger to a sitting president has had negative favorables, even Biden in 2020 had a slight positive favorable line. His personality and legal troubles probably play a part in why he’s been struggling to put a race away where he gets to challenge a very unpopular incumbent the public has lost faith in and thinks isn’t mentally all there.
12. Both candidates are not exactly at the top of their health game. It’s unlikely but not impossible that certain health-related circumstances that happen to pop up during the campaign lead to a dramatic shift in voters thinking Trump is the one they fear can’t finish an entire term. It should be noted that the recent post-debate CBS poll found that while around two-thirds had concerns about Biden’s mental sharpness – half of the same respondents felt the same about Trump.
– The Clock Is Ticking, And Time Is Running Out
While I’m sympathetic to arguments Biden can still turn this around, I hope the evidence I’ve presented in this piece at the very least helps you understand why there is a strong argument that Trump needs to start being treated as the clear favorite in the race. As much history as Biden is fighting against, his margin of error for a comeback is larger now than it will be the closer we get to election day if these trends in favor of Trump don’t start to change. The clock is ticking and before you know it the conventions will come and go, Labor Day will arrive, mail ballots will get sent out, and election day will be here. If you truly believe Biden can still win this, the sooner he starts getting momentum the better.
If my early inkling of a Trump victory in November proves wrong I give President Biden all the justification to print this piece out and hold it up at his victory rally in the same way President Truman held the Chicago Tribune’s “Dewey Wins” headline when he won. Not just because I would rightfully have to eat crow, but because if he somehow does win he’ll have pulled off what I believe would be a historic comeback of the likes that would overshadow even Truman’s.
But what about Trump?
The big thing that I’m seeing is a handful of fundamental approaches to this thing:
1. “Holy cow. Biden is likely to lose against Trump… we need to replace Biden with someone else.”
2. “Holy cow. If we replace Biden with Harris, she’s likely to lose against Trump… we need to not replace Biden.”
3. “Holy cow. We have to replace Biden and Harris but we can’t do that. Not in the time period we have. We need to not replace Biden.”
And it’s those three starting assumptions that I see mostly among the most passionate. If there’s a fourth, it involves taking what folks are saying at face value.
“Biden had an off night, he’s otherwise fine” or “CNN deliberately sabotaged Biden in order to improve their ratings next year” or some crap like that. I mean… maybe that denial is genuine? It seems to be coupled with anger at people who disagree, though. It’s not something like “Hey, what I saw was two old men having a pissing contest, not one man peeing his pants”, it’s always something like “WHAT ABOUT TRUMP! WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING BIDEN? YOU HAVE HIDDEN MOTIVES!”
The Dems seem to be painted into a corner.
I don’t know what the best play actually is. Every single one has downsides that seem to exceed their upsides.
If he goes there will be trouble. If he stays there will be double.
The best plays are all back in 2022, 2021, or 2020.
Why did he pick Harris, again? (Remembers 2020.) Oh. Yeah.Report
1. If we are going to prattle on about Biden’s age, start prattling about Trump’s continued use of the Gish Gallop – which happens t present as dementia manifesting.
2. Your 12 thing that point to a win contain numerous amounts of evidence that polling is in fact not serving Democrats well. That being the case, perhaps relying on polling – albeit a great data source to play with in Google Sheets – is not a good idea.
3. You failed to mention Trump’s sentencing next week in New York, where even house arrest will mean he picks up a handicap in campaigning. To say nothing of the look of a convicted former president trying to appeal to SOCTUS to toss a state conviction based on official immunity claims – where said conviction is for acts take before becoming president.
4. Let’s also be real – the Fourth Estate is a major part of the problem here. The NYT telling Biden to step aside because they are butt hurt about not getting an exclusive sit down interview is not going to cover Biden’s success objectively. Nether is Rupert Murdoch or the Sinclair Medeia empire. That’s a way larger deal then you are giving credit for.Report
Yeah, exactly.Report
It’s not just the NYT. Very few people were calling for Biden to step down when he was merely refusing interviews. Something happened in the past week that made a lot of people start calling for Biden to step down.Report
He wasn’t refusing to do interviews – he was refusing to do a particular kind of interview with a particular organization. Apples and ice cubes dude.Report
OK. Very few people were calling for Biden to step down when he was merely refusing to do a particular kind of interview with a particular organization. Something happened in the past week that made a lot of people start calling for Biden to step down.
Red apples and green apples.Report
How many rambling, grievance filled, Gish Galloping rally’s does TFG have to present before the GOP gets told to dump him?Report
It won’t happen. Every politician these days does rambling and grievance. If Trump becomes obviously too physically and/or mentally impaired to do the job, they’ll push to drop him.Report
buddy I think you need a napReport
Even if Biden wins, the next decade or so is going to be an all out brawl for democracy and the rule of law.
The Republican Party, from Trump all the way down to the local school board, is deeply committed to enforcing their rule upon the citizens, whether they have their consent or not.
And despair or surrender isn’t an option because fascists don’t simply want obedience, they demand approval. Notice how one of their biggest grievances is that they are not popular,.
So they do all sorts of things that seem merely performative like posting the Ten Commandments or banning Pride flags, but the real purpose is to coerce approval from an unwilling citizenry.
Under Republican rule, your most intimate act is subject to their review and approval.Report
Far too many Americans – including a sizable number of OT’ers – sincerely believe the tactics the GOP is deploying will not be used against them. and if people like you or me are harmed, that may be an individual tragedy but it can’t be helped.
Those same folks would be shocked at what history actually tells us.Report
Yes. We need to lean on Mendez and see if we can’t guilt him into shutting up about what he’s seeing.
Maybe we should point out that his last name is kinda LatinX-flavored? Ask him which side he’s on? Maybe that’ll work.Report
One of the few things we have in our favor is that every time some reactionary centrist tries to soothe us with “Oh, maybe you’re overeacting” Trump immediately comes out with “I WANT TO PUT LIZ CHENEY IN A MILITARY TRIBUNAL!!”
When they tell us “Oh, you see, we merely want to trim some of the excessive DEI practices” A GOP operatives screams “BURN ALL THE PRIDE FLAGS!!”
And on and on.
“Oh, you see, we’re merely concerned about late term abortions” is followed by “LETS USE THE COMSTOCK LAW TO BAN CONTRACEPTION!!”
Every hysterical accusation made against the Trumpists has come true, and in fact, they brag about it.Report
And yet that truth is STILL not moving many Americans in any meaningful way. Much less OT commenters. Those truths have Koz rooting for Trump’s reelection again and Jaybird bordering on Gish Galloping himself, while Pinky and Ken B tut tut around and look down their noses at us for over taking Trump seriously. These people want this Chip. And too many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking it doesn’t matter.Report
I remember four years of predictions where you got only three hours right.Report
What? My first comment wasn’t a “Gish Gallop”. It was an attempt to guess what the main play was going to be in response to a good essay that does a good job of breaking down the lay of the land.
To be honest, I think that my best guess was not particularly bad.
You should probably frame it as “poisoning the well” because any comment that goes out of its way to change the subject from the main essay will be painted in a negative light due to my first comment guessing at how Biden Partisans would respond to an essay breaking down the problems that need to be overcome.
Would you like to get back to talking about how bad Trump is, though?
I can certainly see why you’d want to, given how awful Biden is.Report
Your honor, case in point.Report
“Disagreeing with me is evidence of bad faith.”
“What? No it’s not!”
“HE COMES OUT AND DOES IT AGAIN!”Report
I never thought the leopards would eat my face…Report
Let me say that I don’t know what’s going to happen in November. It’s only July, after all.
That said: If Trump beats Biden in November and someone is curious about how Trump could have possibly defeated Biden, this essay will be an excellent way to explain to them why Trump beat Biden in 2024.
“But surely the democratic rank-and-file would have seen this too?”, they might ask.
At that point, we will be able to point to the comments.Report
Everyone is enjoying playing fantasy pundit but there are some hard facts that people are not considering:
1. The Democratic Party had a Presidential primary in 2024. The voters in this primary picked Biden and often by large numbers. People ran against him. There was no special juju that caused big name Governors to sit out this time. They were being team players and thought that being against Biden would create division. I don’t get the galaxy brain conspiratorial thinking that makes people think the DNC or DLC put the kibosh on Josh “aka Johnny Unbeatable” Shapiro into not running this year.
2. Only Harris has a legal claim to the 96 million dollar Biden-Harris campaign war chest;
3. Biden dropping out will produce 4 months of never ending preening from Trump on how he caused Biden to step down with the media helping for the assist.
4. Not everyone responding to the post-debate polls is a Democrat and/or responding in good faith.
Could Biden lose in November? Yes. Could he also be the best chance to defeat Trump in November? Also yes. Will facts and analysis prevent wank fests of armchair consultants? No.Report
1. This is true but uninteresting. There are many people calling for Biden to be replaced due to now having information that they didn’t have at the time of the primary. “You don’t get a do-over!” is an appeal to the process, not the underlying complaint.
2. True, but that means that the primary choice for the new top of the ticket is Harris. And if Harris decides* that she’d rather be AG or something like that, you don’t need more than light shenanigans to transfer the money to someone else.
3. There are plenty of ways to hand Trump a win. Some wins that you can hand him are worse than other wins you can hand him. Don’t lose a war because you hate the idea of him preening for a news cycle in freaking JULY.
4. Sure. But some of them are people like Pelosi.Report
A piece of information that bolsters the argument made by the original post:
CNN Poll: Most voters think Democrats have a better chance of keeping White House if Biden isn’t the nominee
Report
None of the alternates polls better against TFG then Biden.
So who exactly should Democrats replace him with?Report
I’ll just copy and paste a paragraph from the CNN article:
Hey. That paragraph was right above the one that *YOU* quoted!
Anyway, I don’t think that there are any good plays. I think that all of the good decision points are in the past and now we have a bunch of stinkers to choose from.
Keep Biden on and make sure that he only gives interviews to folks like George Stephanopoulos until November? That’s a bad option.
Switch to Harris and find a good middle-of-the-road attack dog to appeal to the suburbs (someone like Colorado’s Jared Polis)? Yeah, that might be a better option than Biden but it’s not a great one. Harris has charisma issues that aren’t great. Maybe they’re overcomeable but she dropped out early in 2020 for reasons and those reasons still exist.
Dump Harris and run with something like Polis/Whitmer 2024? Hoo, boy. That’s going to be tough. It could work. But there’d be a *LOT* of turmoil along the way and the last time something like that happened (1968), the Republicans were able to capitalize on it fairly effectively (and there is *ZERO* evidence that a convention will give us something as reasonable as Polis/Whitmer).
There aren’t any really good options. Just a bunch of bad ones.
For what it’s worth, I don’t begrudge folks thinking “keep Biden!” as being worse than the other two options. I can totally see how they’d conclude that, given the last couple of weeks. I also see how “this is the best of three bad options” isn’t a fun argument to defend for those who think that this is the best of three bad options.
But acknowledging that the options are bad at this point of time has the upside of not giving the impression that “I’m a sleazy salesman trying to sell you a lemon and calling it a peach”.Report
you and a great many other seem fixated on one public appearance and one set of subsequent polls as indicative of the need for significant change. That single data point tells you nothing. Again – as i have noted elsewhere – Biden is still a good to great speaker, he has a good track record of moving the needle since he was elected on issue that matter, he will protect democracy – and the polling trend is dead level or better for him with the other options including Harris. There is no reason for the democratic Party to dump him.
Especially when the choice is a guy who has publicly vowed to detain folks like me for opposing him.Report
I suppose I could bring up the “cheap fakes” multiple public appearances… should I bother?
You are not a fan of this set of public polls. Fair enough. I imagine that any poll I’d point to that came out around a week after the debate would be part of that set.
Okay. When does the next set begin? I’d like to see whether your criticism becomes “two sets of bad polls”.Report
How about we do our own poll right here?
How many people here at OT are willing to go on record as saying they are more likely to turn out to vote if the nominee is Harris, versus Biden?
I’ll go on record as saying it won’t matter, I’m turning out regardless.Report
I hope that California follows your lead and that nominee Harris can count on winning the Sunshine State.
I’m pretty much going to vote no matter what, no matter who the nominees are. I will want to tweet that little “I Voted” sticker to Twitter and get a post out of it.Report
I am too – but I see no need to dump Biden over his debate performance.Report
We can let others chime in, but I predict that no one here will say that the difference between Harris and Biden will change either their motivation to vote, or their vote itself.
Which is why I find all the armchair punditry and horserace analysis absurd.
It’s all premised on the assumption that the speaker has some interesting and insightful view on how other people are going to react.
But no one here or any of the major pundits have demonstrated why we should accept their expertise- I might as well ask the guy who lives in a box outside the subway station for his thoughts.
But worse, it is based on the idea that somehow this is all about the candidates- Its always phrased as “Joe Biden better do X or his candidacy is doomed”
Aside from the fact that X is invariably the pundit’s personal pet desires, the assumption is that the impact of the election will be borne by Joe Biden.
Joe Biden isn’t going to suffer any ill effects of losing the election other than a blow to his ego.
Its the rest of us who will suffer. But you’d never know it reading the “They’re coming around the corner, and its neck and neck, ladies and gentleman!” nonsense.Report
Gee, Chip, maybe you could read Luis’s post. He wrote an entire essay about his take and why he thought what he thought with links to supporting evidence and everything.
You don’t have to even click to go see it. Just scroll up.Report
Neither he, nor Nate Silver, or Ezra Klein or any of the other horserace touts can tell us why the polls are the way they are.
What is happening with the American electorate that about 50% of them want a dictator?
Telling me that 65.3% of the time a left handed batter has faced a red haired pitcher after two consecutive strikeouts he will hit a single isn’t telling me anything worth knowing.Report
In 2008, the United States elected a black man as President and a good chunk of the country lost its mind and the right-wing press and meme empire has been chipping at them ever since.Report
Bingo.Report
This has the most explanatory power for what has transpired since.Report
What is more interesting and depressing for me is ostensibly which left leaning outlets seem to have it in the bag for Biden.
1. The Times is obvious. They never liked him, I think the youngest Sulzberger is basically trust-fund plutocratic fash and Kahn (heir to Staples) is as well. But they know they have a Democratic leaning audience that they love to troll. They also know they are basically the best straight reporting out there.
Biden denied them an exclusive interview and they have been filled with resentment since then and against him.
2. Slate and Vox are more interesting and disturbing. Neither is close to pro-Trump but the younger reporters at both organizations seem to be the kind of furious leftist who thinks “Democrats and Republicans are just the same” and seethes with resentment when their older brothers or sisters (or worse their parents) telling them “if you support abortion rights, you need to vote Democratic/vote blue no matter who.” Or a bunch of them have decided that capitalism must be destroyed and are deeply upset that the Democratic Party is not even nominally making noises about “late stage Capitalism”
I generally think this furious left is not consequential but they seem to have good bases of support at places like Slate and Vox.
I was in college in 2000. I went to college where everyone debated Nader v. Gore. I thought “Democrats are just Republicans lite” was very stupid in 2000 and even more stupid now but it seems every generation needs to make this mistake.
It is my crowd of early middle-aged types which seems to realize Biden is old but he is an old, dependable workhorse.Report
Neither he, nor Nate Silver, or Ezra Klein or any of the other horserace touts can tell us why the polls are the way they are.
I’m not sure that he has to.
It’s sufficient for him to say “If we run Biden, we lose. I don’t want to lose, therefore I do not want to run Biden.”
And then he can go from there to talk about that.
He doesn’t need to explain that the people who vote for Trump are racist.
He just has to make the connection in his head that people who refuse to let Biden go are enabling racists because the people who refuse to let Biden go are enabling Trump and, by extension, Trump’s voters.Report
Nobody “has to” do anything.
If someone wants to just throw out a bunch of data showing odds, well, OK fine.
I just don’t think it has any sort of meaning or insight.Report
It’s perfectly fine to deny that polling data is meaningful.
If you do that, there are a lot fewer things weighing down what you see as the right thing to do.
Please understand that there are people out there who do stuff like see polling as representative of likelihoods of things happening. This has them reach different conclusions than you for reasons that are, get this, reasonable.
I seriously think that you’d benefit from reading the original essay, if only to get a take from someone who wants to replace Biden because they want Trump to lose.Report
I never said that polling data isn’t meaningful.
I said that the data analysis you’re talking about (“likelihoods of things happening”) is meaningless because you can’t explain why they are happening, or the ramifications of them happening.
Its all just “This horse is ahead by a nose!”Report
If there were polls that said that the “wrong track” numbers were high and I pointed to those polls as for why Biden was bad off, would that be sufficient?
Or would that turn into “but *WHY* do these people think that it’s on the wrong track?”
And then I could point to immigration and inflation and then you could ask “But *WHY* do they care about inflation?”
And we could successfully change the subject away from stuff like Luis’s fine essay that way.Report
Sufficient for what?
I mean, you yourself have gone to great lengths to tell us that you are largely indifferent and agnostic as to whether Biden or Trump wins.
So what does any of your analysis and predictions matter? If the outcome doesn’t matter, then anything you have to say about the election is no more meaningful than a prediction of who is going to win a reality show.Report
Sufficient for you, Chip. Sufficient to get you to say “this means something”.
If the outcome doesn’t matter, then anything you have to say about the election is no more meaningful than a prediction of who is going to win a reality show.
Let’s say that it’s a sports game and you’re watching two different teams play.
Arguing that the only way you can predict whether a team will win is if you’re a fan is not true.
And it’s not true that I can only guess who is going to win if I care that Biden wins.
I mean, if I cared that Trump lost, I could very well see arguing for Biden to be replaced (if I thought that Biden was a shoo-in for a loss).
But that wouldn’t automatically make my predictions “meaningful”.Report
I’m just saying you don’t have anything insightful or important to say about the state of American politics.
And this is your own claim. You keep telling us that you are indifferent and that this election isn’t really important, in fact, you use that statement as a sarcastic jibe.
So really, you keep telling us that, unless we want a breathless up to the minute report on which horse’s nose is out in front, we have no reason to pay attention to your comments.
Again…You are the one saying this.Report
Sure. I have nothing insightful of important to say about the state of American politics.
*BUT*
I can say stuff like “here’s an essay written by Luis Mendez that I think captures some pretty important stuff including a handful of troublesome poll results” and if someone else says “but the polls don’t talk about *WHY* they have the results they do!”, I can point to other polls that talk about stuff like “right track/wrong track”.
“BUT YOUR OPINIONS DON’T MATTER! YOU’VE ADMITTED AS MUCH!”
“I agree that they don’t matter. This is why I’m talking about Luis’s essay and the polls. What I don’t understand is why you prefer to talk about my opinions. We both agree that my opinions don’t matter.”Report
But it’s your opinion that Mendez’s essay and the poll numbers matter!Report
What’s the point of pointing at polls, if as you yourself say, you have no insights into them?
We don’t need you to point to them, we are all bombarded with headlines about polls every day.
Seriously, are you adding anything of value to this discussion?Report
The fact that my opinions aren’t interesting does not mean that polls stop being interesting, Chip.
I mean, good lord, if you’re using my opinions as a lodestone for what is not interesting, suddenly my opinions have stopped being uninteresting and they’re very interesting indeed.
Seriously, are you adding anything of value to this discussion?
At the very least, I’m providing you with something you’d rather talk about than the points made in the original post.
“Uninteresting” beats “Unpleasant”, I guess.Report
“We can let others chime in, but I predict that no one here will say that the difference between Harris and Biden will change either their motivation to vote, or their vote itself.”
chip if there’s no difference between harris and biden then why not switch? at least then we’d have someone who can stay up past eight PM.Report
I don’t know why it’s tough for some people to come to terms with Biden’s decline. It’s been visible for a few years. It’s been an openly-discussed phenomenon in the conservative and foreign press. Even the mainstream US press has mentioned it. It’s not simply a matter of reading, though. It’s been obvious.
I know it’s hard to accept that one’s party has nominated an unfit candidate, but it’s freeing in one respect: it gives one no option other than to speak the truth. It offends one’s vanity to be pressured into saying things that are not only false, but obviously false and stupid. Biden didn’t develop a stutter in his 70’s, he didn’t have a cold during the debate, and this isn’t the first or tenth time his decline was on public display.Report
Eh. It’s easy. “If X, Then Y.”
They don’t want Y.
Therefore not X.
Easy peasy.Report
There was a set of people who were worried but who wanted to believe, and Thursday night was the fatal blow to their hope — some are feeling quite angry at and betrayed by the party leadership, who they feel must have been lying to them all this time. And there are others who are determined to keep the faith and who are approaching the former group very much like a faith community treats (ex-)members who have lost the faith — too weak to hold on to their belief in the face of adversity, or perhaps never truly believers in the first place.Report
That is a great insight.Report
I consider this to be an all hands on deck scenario considering that Trump stated his intention to rule like a dictator and the Supreme Court gave him his tools. Even his state conviction in New York is now in question. The Heritage Foundation is gleefully looking forward to reversing the 20th century. This is time to rally around Biden. I have yet to hear a Biden step down scenario that is convincing.Report
How about the one in the original post? You can read it if you scroll up.Report
Its like that saying, that if you ever wanted to know what you would have done in the 1930s as fascism arose around the world, you’re doing it now.Report
@LeeEsq — the people who are calling for Biden to step down are just as scared as you are about a Trump presidency. They just think that “rallying around Biden” is more likely to lead to Trump winning than finding a new candidate. There’s no point in calling all hands on deck if the ship is sinking fast and there’s no way to fix it, people need to be heading to the lifeboats at that point.
People can obviously disagree on what the best course is, but talking about how bad Trump is in this context doesn’t make any rational sense at all. Everyone you’re thinking about agrees on that — the disagreement is about the best way to stop that from happening.Report
Part of the problem is that the stakes being as high as they are, you can’t acknowledge that people on your side who have different ideas of what is necessary to succeed have a point.
I mean, the choice is:
“Biden’s going to lose, we need to replace him”
vs.
“Biden’s the only one who can win, we need to *NOT* replace him”
Neither one of those sides can acknowledge that the other side makes some good points… because to acknowledge that the other side makes good points is to bolster Team Evil by letting Team Undecided know that Team Good has lingering doubts.
So the only play is “My side is right, my take is right, and anyone who disagrees is a plant who is harming Team Good.”
You see this with the additional demands given to people who think that Biden will lose to Trump: “You have to put together a list of names that would be better! If you don’t have a list of names, I don’t have to entertain that Biden might lose!”
Does it matter if a list is provided? Of course not.
Because the ask is *NOT* for a list of names. It’s for how you have to do stuff and I don’t.
Hell, look above. Who has engaged with the points made by Luis? He made a lot of them! You want to shift the burden of proof onto Team Replacement, well, I’ve got bad news: Luis shouldered that burden of proof and laid out his thoughts and linked to polls and told you exactly why he thinks that sticking with Biden is sleepwalking towards another Trump presidency.
And who has engaged with the points that he’s raised?
Seriously, look around.
Kinda weird, huh?
That’s because the stakes are too high to acknowledge that Team Replace has a point or even that they’re on your side too.
You can’t budge.
The stakes are just too high.Report
Checking recent headlines, looks like the world will be budging them soon. Reminds me of the line from Sun Also Rises about how Mike went bankrupt — gradually, and then suddenly.Report
I disagree.
Realistically the only one who can replace Biden at this point is his VP. IF his VP could do a better job at beating Trump than Biden, then we’d have a different world. She’s not capable.
I think most of the “replace Biden” folks aren’t going to vote for him anyway.Report
There are a couple of things that people might mean when they say “replace Biden” and it might be helpful to disambiguate.
1. “Biden needs to RESIGN! NOW!!! And Kamala becomes President by default! And then the House and Senate has to confirm Kamala’s VP according to the Constitution!”
2. Biden can ride it out until January but the convention will be devoted to figuring out who will be on the ballot come November. It doesn’t have to be Kamala! It can be Pritzker/Buttigeig! Two white guys! You like white guys, right?
3. BOTH OF THEM!!!! BIDEN MUST RESIGN NOW AND THEN AT THE CONVENTION WE NEED TO PICK TWO WHITE GUYS TO RUN IN NOVEMBER!!!!!!
If you think your opponent is talking about #3 but, really, they’re talking about #2, it’s probably going to result in people talking past each other.Report
“I think most of the “replace Biden” folks aren’t going to vote for him anyway.”
Following up on Jay’s comment, who exactly do you have in mind in this category and how do you arrive at your estimate of “most”?
In a recent poll, about 80% of Democrats think Biden is too old to be president. The people I’ve read or talked to who are asking/begging for someone else to take his place are Democrats or Never-Trumpers who are terrified of a Trump presidency, who liked Biden’s first term, and who will absolutely vote for Biden if he doesn’t step down, but who are understandably afraid that at this point he’s quite likely to lose and would rather roll the dice with someone else. They think he’ll lose because of what they think the non-committed voters out there will do, not because of what they themselves will do.
We each have our own experiences but I think you’re delusional if you think the push for replacement is coming primarily from people who won’t be ticking off the “D” box no matter what come November.Report
Yeah. There are three groups of voters.
1. People who, if they vote, will be voting for your guy.
2. People who, if they vote, will be voting for the other guy.
3. People who, if they vote, could go either way.
If you completely ignore group #3, you can console yourself with the thought that everybody in group #1 isn’t going to become a Trump voter.
If they vote, they’ll vote for Biden.
If Biden is replaced with Harris, if they vote, they’ll vote for Harris.
If Biden is replaced with 15 ducks in a human suit, if they vote, they’ll vote for the 15 ducks in a human suit.
I daresay that the problem is in two places with this:
1. The whole “energized voter” thing contained in the phrase “if they vote”. Sometimes voting is a pain in the butt. You don’t want to put voters in a position where it’s easy to forget to vote, or to say “eh, my state is blue/red anyway”. “Oh, so you’re saying that every single person on Team Blue will ‘forget’ to vote?!?” “No, I’m not saying that. But to pretend that stuff that happens on the margins doesn’t matter because the core is unchanged is some weird denial stuff and you should look at how your brain is lying to you.”
2. Group #3 does, in fact, exist.Report
It’s all a question of what those 3s in the 6-7 swing states are going to do. Any other conversation is a distraction.Report
There are 6-7 swing states now?
How many swing states were there the last couple of times?Report
6-7.
(To clarify I am generally agreeing with you.)Report
I thought that there were only 3-4.
Okay. I feel a hair better.
(No, I totally dig what you’re saying. I was just thinking that if we went from 3-4 swings to 6-7, then that was a bad indicator. If it’s stayed the same, then we’re good!)Report
I believe the official list of ‘could go either way’ are PA, MI, WI, NV, AZ, GA, and NC. From my occasional glancing at the polls I think GA and NC are very likely out of reach for Biden but probably were pre debate.
So the question really is whether there is something about Biden in particular that even in his current condition keeps it close among those voters in those states, and keeps them willing to show up.Report
One argument that keeps coming up is something to the effect of “we’re not voting for *BIDEN*, we’re voting for a *BIDEN ADMINISTRATION*.”
Part of that is the whole “capable of putting together a GOTV and a “Collect Mail-In Ballots” machine.
So that’s going to keep it close among those voters, if I had to guess.Report
I have no idea how that pitch will work. It sounds to my ears like some weak cope but I also think nothing is harder for us political junkies than getting in the heads of these types of voters.
I could hear a kind of practical argument based purely on the fact that they will actually recognize Biden’s name on a ballot, whereas that may not be the case for name your dream candidate. Maybe the positive of name recognition is enough that it outweighs whatever association it may have with economic anxieties that top peoples reported concerns. It isn’t an easy call but I would have liked for the campaign to be out ahead of it. Were that the case I don’t think we’d have all these reports about conversations that may (or may not?) be happening.Report
She’s not likable, but she’s capable.Report
“She’s so fcuking bad.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1-nwD9owsReport
Yeah, I won’t act like the Democrats on this, saying that Trump is uniquely dangerous and all Republicans are just as bad. Whatever I may think of Harris as a person, whatever I think of her policies, she’s the duly elected Vice President, and since our duly elected President can no longer serve, she should be our President. That’s what matters.Report
Right?Report
Right. Your point is?Report
No one’s covering themselves with glory here.Report
Obviously not. I wasn’t bragging about being in a party that nominated an unfit candidate. I was trying to offer advice to people who find themselves in that position.Report
Morning Mika just announced that Joe Scarborough is on a planned vacation, and that he had only said that it may be time for Biden to consider stepping aside.Report
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/06/30/lichtman-dems-replace-biden/74260967007/Report
Biden told his staff he is not going to drop out and he is in it to win it.
It’s BidenReport
As it should be.Report