The Shifting Politics of Abortion

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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33 Responses

  1. CJColucci
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    says:

    I would love to know how many abortions Trump has paid for or otherwise been responsible for.Report

  2. Brandon Berg
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    says:

    Federalist Society judges who will do whacky things like decide an 1864 law is governing precedent

    Is that wacky? Maybe laws should expire and need renewal every twenty years, but as of now they don’t. As policy, I don’t like the law any more than you do, but if it is, in fact, a legally enacted part of the state code that has not been overridden by any more recent legislative action, then that seems like the correct ruling. I’m not familiar with Arizona law on abortion; is there a tenable argument that this is not, in fact, the most applicable law on the issue in Arizona?

    If the legislature or governor are refusing to amend the law, that’s on them, not the court.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Brandon Berg
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      says:

      The issue with saying “well if you wanted it different you should have PASSED A LAW” is that fifty years ago there was a Supreme Court decision saying that we didn’t need to pass a law.

      Like, the “governing precedent” for two entire generations has been Roe v. Wade, and if you want to say “well that’s their own fault for depending on a court decision that could be overturned in an afternoon instead of codifying things with a law”, sure maybe, but it’s not like there was no rational reason to say “this is the established practice and isn’t likely to change”.Report

      • Pinky in reply to DensityDuck
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        says:

        About half of the states had some kind of “trigger law” to go into effect after Roe.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to DensityDuck
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        says:

        I meant that the legislature and government should have passed a new law immediately after the ruling. Judges are supposed to rule on what the law is, not what they think it should be. Making law is the legislators’ job.Report

        • KenB in reply to Brandon Berg
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          says:

          “ Making law is the legislators’ job.”

          Does anyone think this anymore? Reading the reactions to the FTC non compete refs, people agree or disagree on the outcome but hardly anyone seems bothered by the fact that this was done by administrative fiat.

          It called to mind this old SNL cold open re executive orders: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUDSeb2zHQ0Report

          • InMD in reply to KenB
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            says:

            These aren’t the same things. Whether one agrees with the policy decision or not the FTC rule went through administrative rulemaking, which is a Congress created statutory process (the Administrative Procedure Act). The FTC itself is established by an act of Congress and has a statutory mandate. Congress could also eliminate these laws if it chose to do so.

            Now, it’s entirely possible the courts say that the FTC exceeded its authority, and there are of course small handfuls of legal scholars that say any delegation of authority by Congress is unconstitutional, but it isn’t administrative fiat. This stuff only happens because Congress put laws on the book.Report

            • KenB in reply to InMD
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              says:

              I didn’t say they were the same things, or that either was “unconstitutional.” My point is that people generally don’t seem to care about democratic process, just about getting their preferred outcome.Report

              • InMD in reply to KenB
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                says:

                Certainly a fair point. At the same time we’re operating in a system of indirect democracy. We have the power to democratically elect representatives who could override or alter any of this. The systems were all put in place by democratically elected politicians.Report

      • Michael Siegel in reply to DensityDuck
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        I agree partially but … once Kennedy retired, it became obvious Roe was in danger, if not doomed. Dems needed a post-Roe strategy and they never put one together.Report

        • InMD in reply to Michael Siegel
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          says:

          Personally I think there was a lot of complacency that the worst that was going to happen was a Roberts-Kavanaugh axis allowing a much greater level of interference at the state level than was seen before without expressly overruling Roe/Casey or endangering access to those vast majority of abortions happening far before viability. Or maybe that’s just what I thought only to be proven wrong.Report

  3. Chip Daniels
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    says:

    We were told for years that no one actually wanted to ban abortion, that this was all just rube-running and ha ha of course they didn’t really mean it and any suggestion they were willing to hang women and doctors for murder was just hysterical smears.

    But of course they do. Even if only a minority want to go that far, the majority won’t do anything to stop them and will turn a blind eye and pretend it isn’t happening.

    And as has been pointed out previously authoritarianism contains the seeds of its own destruction because it feeds off conflict not peace. It needs a constant source of enemies and battles and now the movement is eyeing contraception as the next enemy to be fought.Report

  4. Jaybird
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    says:

    There are a lot of things that are fine sentiments.
    These things that are fine sentiments are actively bad when law enforcement gets involved with them.

    I think that most folks have a bunch of attitudes that say “yeah, people shouldn’t X” and then get really upset at the thought of police kicking down doors and shooting a dog making sure that people don’t X.

    Heck, I agree that people shouldn’t X for a heck of a lot of Xs. But I don’t think that the cops should be involved in making sure that people don’t X.

    I think that the sentiment that people avoid X is a good sentiment. I wish that society held it in higher regard. I think that people who say that “X is good, actually” are saying something bad and they may be involved in actively making the world worse.

    But I don’t think that the cops should be involved. This isn’t the jurisdiction of law enforcement.

    In the cases where the cops got involved, I’m not sure that the involvement of the cops has resulted in the world becoming materially better.

    In a handful of cases, the cops stopping being involved (for example, Marijuana Legalization) has resulted in the world becoming a little bit better in the whole “not getting arrested for marijuana” category and a little bit worse in the whole “you used to be able to drive past Acacia Park without getting a contact high” category.

    When it comes to abortion, I understand the sentiment that says that it should be avoided. But that doesn’t mean that I think that getting the cops involved will result in the world becoming a better place.

    It’ll make things worse.

    And the hypocrisy that says “WE SHOULD AVOID X!” that also says “but, yeah, people who really want X should have it readily accessible with a minimum of fuss” is probably the best way to go.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      The issue, to me, is that a lot of people have the idea that laws aren’t rules, they’re position statements, and that actual rules come from government offices like the FTC, or the FCC, or the FAA, or the EPA, or the NHTSA. So they don’t see anything inconsistent about supporting an abortion ban and then being upset when doctors decide they’re gonna do Exactly What the Law Says Plus A Little Extra Just To Be Sure, because they see the Abortion Ban Law as a guideline, not a rule.

      And given how much Congress has let its governing authority be arrogated by the Executive Branch bureaucracy, these people aren’t entirely wrong to feel that way!Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
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        says:

        All laws are by necessity vague statements intended to be clarified by bureaucratic rule or court opinion.

        Unless you want a law that says “Abortion is allowable only if the patient’s blood pressure is 112/85, and her Pg/D level is 0.35 and the rate of O2 absorption is 35%/min….”

        I mean, Republicans have been explicitly clear that they are afraid of giving doctors a safe harbor in determining when a woman’s life or health is in jeopardy, because doctors might interpret that a little too broadly and allow an abortion which Republicans don’t want.

        So they deliberately kept it vague so as to force them to ,as you say, do Exactly What the Law Says Plus A Little Extra Just To Be Sure.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Chip Daniels
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          says:

          “All laws are by necessity vague statements intended to be clarified by bureaucratic rule or court opinion.”

          Really? Why? You seem awful sure that when doctors declare that they won’t treat uterine haemorrhage and prefer to let women bleed out in the parking lot, that was the specific intent of the actual law that was passed. Don’t you think it would have been easy enough to write that into the actual law?Report

          • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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            says:

            No.Report

          • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
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            says:

            No we don’t. To begin with it would nearly impossible to create an exhaustive list of conditions that were medically sound and politically acceptable that could constitute such a list. Never mind the march of medical understanding and technology that mean what endangers a life today doesn’t endanger a life in two or three decades. As flip as it sounds, solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is likely easier.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
              Ignored
              says:

              Phil, you don’t need to talk to me, you need to talk to Chip, who is quite certain that “women should die” was the outcome desired by the legislators here.

              Or you need to talk to the doctors, who despite all their rhetoric about being servants of the ill are still content to do the calculus of “dying woman in a car” versus “my job” and determine that the latter is what they prefer.Report

              • InMD in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                What you’re postulating here about the doctors themselves isn’t grounded in how acute care providers work. The providers practicing there are subject to all kinds of rules and requirements that not only prohibit them from going rogue but make it extremely difficult even if they want to.

                Most of them may not even be employed by the hospitals but by a practice group with privileges. No one knows where the limits on these laws are and you’re not going to get a bunch of orderlies, nurses, PAs, technicians and other types to find out at the expense of their livelihoods nor do the hospital administrators want the places to be sanctioned, charged with crimes, or lose funding for carrying out illegal procedures. Real life is not ER where the music starts and George Clooney pops out to do whatever needs to be done, damn the rules and consequences.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to InMD
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                says:

                If you want to claim that doctors are Just Workin’ Here and are due no more respect or forbearance than the dude who changes my oil at Jiffy Lube, well, I guess I can’t greatly disagree with you.

                You’ll have to take it up with them, though, because I’m pretty sure they’d be ticked if you said something like that right to their face.Report

              • InMD in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                No, I’m making what I would think is the fairly obvious observation that laws prohibiting a particular activity will tend to have a chilling effect not just on the specific activity prohibited, but on things that could kind of sort of go near it, especially when we’re talking about highly regulated industries like healthcare. I understand it is frustrating that this vindicates what I would call the moderately pro-choice side’s strongest criticisms of the pro-life movement, that being that they are operating outside of how the real world works, but it is what it is.

                You’re the one that wants to morph it into some kind of meta criticism about about individual caregivers for not living up to a made up standard of selflessnes, as if that’s what this is all about.Report

  5. CJColucci
    Ignored
    says:

    When it comes to abortion, I understand the sentiment that says that it should be avoided. But that doesn’t mean that I think that getting the cops involved will result in the world becoming a better place.

    It’ll make things worse.

    And the hypocrisy that says “WE SHOULD AVOID X!” that also says “but, yeah, people who really want X should have it readily accessible with a minimum of fuss” is probably the best way to go.

    We tried that and have fought over it for 50 years. The people for whom that has been unacceptable for those 50 years have, for now, won. Why can’t they just see reason? Can we understand why they don’t?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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      says:

      Why can’t they just see reason?

      They have something better than reason. They have Deontology.

      Can we understand why they don’t?

      Some can, some can’t.

      Because this is a democracy, they will watch themselves lose the ability to instantiate their ruleset.

      Some will say “we should have been utilitarians instead!”
      Some won’t.Report

  6. Michael Cain
    Ignored
    says:

    Today the Arizona House voted to repeal the 1864 law. A similar bill passed its first reading in the AZ Senate last week. If it gets to her, the Democratic Governor will certainly sign it.

    At that point, the binding law in AZ will be the 15-week ban passed in 2022 while the Republicans held a trifecta.Report

    • North in reply to Michael Cain
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      says:

      Yeah, even the GOP knows that law is gonna kill them in AZ if they don’t do something about it.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Michael Cain
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      says:

      GOP anxieties about the politics of a near-total abortion ban have led to an unlikely, albeit temporary, alliance between Democrats, a small number of Republican lawmakers mostly in swing districts and allies of former president Donald Trump — including Senate candidate Kari Lake, who had initially reversed her position on the ban and had made personal appeals to GOP lawmakers, urging them to repeal the law.

      Three.
      Three Republican legislators voted to repeal the law. All the others, 28 or so, want it to remain law.Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        Yes. Modify North to be “a small number of the GOP legislators know”. I haven’t looked, but would be willing to make a small wager that they’re all from suburban districts in Maricopa County. For them, the 1864 law is just the most recent straw: party opposition to the successful 2020 recreational marijuana initiative; the (shady) 2021 Republican audit of Maricopa County’s vote that found no evidence of any sort of fraud (Biden gained 12 votes, IIRC); and the attempt this year to dismantle the very popular mail ballot system.Report

        • North in reply to Michael Cain
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          says:

          Accepted. I so, so, hope that this lineup of sh*t sandwich policies convinces the Arizonans to finally kick the GOP to the curb this year a la Colorado.Report

          • Michael Cain in reply to North
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            says:

            I think they’ll get there. AZ is doing it in the reverse order of CO. Statewide offices first, then district-level. Governor, AG, Secretary of State, and both US Senators are (D). At this point, the (R)s hold the statehouse and a majority of US House seats.

            Colorado’s tipping point was when the Gang of Four local billionaires decided to flip the state legislature, and worry about the rest later.Report

            • North in reply to Michael Cain
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              says:

              Yes, I think this year should give us a very good idea if the trend is durable.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to North
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                says:

                The two big stories of political geography in the US over the last 30 years is the huge swing from blue-to-red in the Midwest (as a whole), and the red-to-blue swing in the West (as a whole). The NE urban corridor media finally seemed to notice the Midwest thing in 2016 (the “collapse” of the blue wall), but still seems to regard the Mountain West as hopelessly conservative despite the eight-state Mountain West having more Democratic US Senators than the 13-state Midwest.Report

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