Trump Indictment Is Not About Speech

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

Related Post Roulette

10 Responses

  1. Greg In Ak says:

    Judging by the entirely terrible defenses of tfg in conservative media he’s toast. Maybe the defense will get better. One thing to consider about the garbage defenses is we haven’t had the trials for the fake electors yet. When those go, and those dopes are convicted, that will clarify a lot of this.Report

  2. CJColucci says:

    Whatever the merits of the First Amendment defense, or, as I prefer to call it, the George Costanza defense, it will be next to impossible to establish it unless Trump takes the stand and opens himself up to cross-examination.Report

  3. Marchmaine says:

    Yeah, baffled at weird 1st amendment claims; seems pretty simple to me. Either they have insiders willing to come forward to corroborate (compellingly) that Trump himself knew it was all lies and therefore it rises to the level of conspiracy to obstruct/defraud, or they don’t. If they don’t, well, you take your chances in court.

    The third key-grip on the set won’t be enough, unless the entire rest of the production team corroborates. Do we know what Meadows himself is going to say? Anyone else likely to come forward? Pence seems a wild-card at this point.

    I’d be surprised if the defense was 1st amendment; the defense will likely be this: If there’s fraud in the election, the President and the DOJ are required to investigate, which they vigorously did (pause for clapping); the DOJ and the courts eventually ruled there was insufficient evidence of fraud, but the President was continuously advised (deceived? We all know he’ll throw anyone under the bus) that there was more evidence of Fraud that wasn’t yet determined; eventually he lost confidence that the DOJ was serious about investigating which is why he felt that there was no other choice than following the Law as set forth in the ECA: (state) elections where the results are in doubt have a framework for further adjudication. Some State Legislators/Officials agreed with him and it is *their* duty to pursue whatever actions are required in their states to contest the electors. Ultimately those objections were raised (PA and NM) which were duly voted upon and rejected and Trump left office on Jan 20. There was an unfortunate riot on Jan 6 where over-enthusiastic supporters broke in to the Capitol building, but that was beyond the President’s control, and not a conspiracy. [Here Adams would have to connect the Oathkeeper conspiracy directly back to the President – which seems possible – but if it were probable, I feel like we’d already have heard about it]

    That’s the nut Adams will have to crack.

    I’d be very surprised if the defense gets up there and says the President like all Americans can lie about anything he likes. I’d be surprised, but not gobsmacked; there’s a difference.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Marchmaine says:

      The actual indictment says the President can lie about these things. SO there’s that.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H says:

        Heh, he did that for his own protection… Imagine coming back to the office, “Whelp folks, we now have to prosecute the President whenever he lies.” Chaos.

        I was a little surprised that the indictment specifically cited the ECA. I don’t know whether there was a legal/procedural reason he had to, but I’d’ve remained silent on the ECA in my indictment. Now it almost invites a potentially tedious battle over the meaning of a statute that should have been removed/updated decades ago. And, which will easily be pointed out *was* amended in 2022 to eliminate any of those tedious arguments we might now have to have.Report

  4. Burt Likko says:

    However, the section of the indictment that is headed “The Defendant’s Knowledge of the Falsity of His Election Fraud Claims” does fall short. This section lists numerous times in which Trump was told by his advisors that the claims of widespread election fraud were false. Apologists like Erick Erickson have pointed out that Trump could still believe the lie no matter how many people told him the truth. In that case, the “corrupt intent” required by the statutes could be lacking.

    It’s one thing to say you can sincerely believe something for which there’s no evidence. Religion, for instance. As a general matter, you believe whether God is real or not without seeking out or consulting a lot of reliable evidence. Which is fine, because religious issues are ultimately unknowable.

    What I think is going on with the kind of “knowledge” Smith is describing in the indictment is not that sort of nobody-can-really-know-so-you-just-believe-something sort of faith. “Who won the election?” is something you can know. Three’s a massive apparatus of people and technology aimed solely at answering that question as accurately and quickly as possible, operated by literally hundreds of thousands of people who are all double-checking and cross-checking each other, each with individual incentives to reach the truth. You have a lot of opportunity to know. People are telling you things they call facts. People close to you, people aligned with you, people you have trusted in the past, people who have no incentive to lie to you, people who are subject matter experts in the very field about which they’re talking, people whose job and duty it is to tell you these facts, people who ought to be believed not as a matter of faith but as a matter of fact.

    If my doctor tells me I have cancer, I’m going to believe her. It’s her job to tell me, it’s her duty to tell me, it’s her expertise, it’s not because she wants to hurt me but because she wants to see me get better and respond as best I can to the news. I would not like that news at all. It would scare me badly, upset me badly. But it’s not my doctor’s fault and I wouldn’t simply tell the doctor she was wrong. I might say, “I’d like to I get a second opinion,” but that’s not the same thing as disbelieving her and when that second opinion came in the same way, there’d be no more room for doubt regardless of my emotions about the situation.

    This is much more like the knowledge of the patient after getting that second opinion. Maybe you can say the patient still sincerely believes that no, they don’t have cancer, but at that point you’re going to explain such a disbelief with words in the neighborhood of “delusion” or “psychosis.” Which are not great words to be applying to the President of the United States of America. And “Trump was delusional and acted on his delusions” is not a line of defense that to can apply to someone who wants that job back and is actively campaigning for it.Report

  5. DavidTC says:

    It’s worth pointing out that all the stuff about Trump knowing that he is lying exists to justify the _fraud_ part, which requires lying, aka, knowing something is untrue. And possibly also in the conspiracy against rights, I am not sure?

    What it doesn’t need to justify is the Conspiracy to Obstruct an Official Proceeding and Obstruction of, and Attempt to Obstruct, an Official Proceeding. In any manner at all.

    You not allowed to corruptly obstruct (And, just in case people think ‘obstruct’ is some technicality, the actual law says ‘obstructs, influences, or impedes’, and ‘impedes’ is a much easier descriptor of what he did.), and corruptly actually just means ‘outside the bounds laid out in law’.

    You don’t get to do that if you think you’re right, you don’t get to do it even if you are factually, provably, with-100%-certainty, literally correct.

    If I _know for a fact_ that an official proceeding is going to have a wrong outcome, I still am not allowed to impede it. Even if I can later prove I was right in court. What I know doesn’t matter, the actual truth does not matter, I am still not allowed to meddle in a corrupt manner.

    Additionally, the courts have already agreed that counting the electoral college was an official proceeding, if anyone actually wondered about that really obvious fact. (Some extremely dumb lawyers tried to make a question.)

    The only loophole left is ‘corruptly’, which I’m sure Trump will attempt to argue that his repeated attempts to influence Pence were not corrupt, and hell, maybe that will work for that part of the indictment. But it doesn’t really change things, because the plan b of ‘causing enough disruption to cause the vote not to happen’ is certainly not some power the president has, and he took several actions to make that more likely to happen.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

      …and I just read the CATO article that doesn’t seem to know that the courts have already deciding on the ‘Was January 6th an Official Proceeding question’, and that it was a hilariously laughable question to start with.

      Here’s the actual law:

      (1) the term “official proceeding” means—
      (A) a proceeding before a judge or court of the United States, a United States magistrate judge, a bankruptcy judge, a judge of the United States Tax Court, a special trial judge of the Tax Court, a judge of the United States Court of Federal Claims, or a Federal grand jury;
      (B) a proceeding before the Congress;
      (C) a proceeding before a Federal Government agency which is authorized by law; or
      (D) a proceeding involving the business of insurance whose activities affect interstate commerce before any insurance regulatory official or agency or any agent or examiner appointed by such official or agency to examine the affairs of any person engaged in the business of insurance whose activities affect interstate commerce;

      Now, you might think that settles it, but it doesn’t actually. Congress in session isn’t normally in a ‘proceeding’, which requires them to have some sorta witness before them or be having some sort of hearing. An impeachment, for example, would be a proceeding, as would a confirmation hearing.

      The problem for that loophole is…that’s exactly what Congress had. The Vice President sitting in front of them in a formal manner and announcing the votes. He is actually the witness, that is literally his job, constitutionally speaking. He gets handed the electoral ballots by the states in his position as President of the Senate, he announces them. It’s why Pence thought he couldn’t do anything but announce stuff.

      If they had disrupted a normal session of Congress there might be a different argument, but January 6th is as official a proceeding as you’ll ever see in Congress.

      In fact, I’m very surprised the DoJ didn’t include 1512(a)(2), which is the thing about using threats of violence to ‘influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding’. Maybe that one didn’t get past the grand jury.Report