Paul Krugman, in one column, highlights the Democratic Party’s failure with rural voters

Mike Grillo

Mike Grillo is a writer who, when not writing, is working in finance and surviving the wilds of being a New Jersey resident. He does not tweet.

Related Post Roulette

81 Responses

  1. Tim (@Gurdur) says:

    Excellent if brief take-down.Report

  2. Slade the Leveller says:

    The OP opines that rural voters are currently faced with a choice between a party he purports ignores them, and a party whose ostensible leader openly, and with support from said rural voters, pursued policies that actively hurt them.

    And that will cause more people to get elected who aren’t serious about doing the work to fix it, but to build platforms for themselves by echoing that “rage.” But as long as Democrats can rely on an urban area population that votes for them in large numbers, why should they bother to concern themselves with the “basket of deplorables?”

    I believe the author has stolen the agency of rural voters and handed it right to the Democratic Party.Report

  3. CJColucci says:

    Stix Nix Hix PixReport

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    Rural voters are angry, I guess.
    About what?
    Vast global economic factors hollowing out their communities.
    What do they want to do about it?
    Ban LGBTQ books, criminalize trans support treatments, ban abortion and cut Social Security and Medicare.

    Paul Krugman: Can the anger of rural voters be assuaged?

    Rural Voters: Hell no!Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    The draconian limitations Iowa Republicans are considering imposing on SNAP benefits will really show Paul Krugman how wrong he isReport

  6. Pinky says:

    I’ve never met an economist who praised Paul Krugman.

    To the heart of this article, I can’t properly address this point because Krugman’s piece is behind a paywall, so I could be wrong on this. But it’s common to see articles like this in which the lefty explains that his economics are good for the rural population, who nonetheless vote against their interests. I don’t agree with the left on their economic policies, but that’s a fair kind of argument to have. The problem is that they ignore the non-economic policies. Mike’s article seems to do the same, except for the second-to-last paragraph.

    I have to ask the question that Charles Murray asked decades ago. If you were going to die, and you could send your children to a richer family whose morals you didn’t agree with, or a poorer family who you considered to be moral, which would you choose? I don’t think anyone would choose the wealth over the morals. So while we can and should argue over economic policies, we shouldn’t assume that those who vote against their economic self-interests – even if they did so deliberately – are voting wrong.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

      This is my first comment, except unironically.

      In this view, rural voters would rather address cultural resentments, even to the point of ignoring economic ones.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        What else did you expect?Report

      • Cindy Hayes in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Do you understand people of faith? Or perhaps the rage a father feels when his young daughter has to “hold it” until she gets home lest she get abused in her facilities because the free lunch program in their school is now contingent on allowing boys in girls facilities. Except that happened in our city because our country folks won’t comply.

        You don’t think they saw that case in VA where they sent the rapist to another school, where he raped another girl, while their school board called the father a liar & had him arrested? The Superintendent was fired recently over it, but his “cultural resentments” caused the rape of 2 young girls & the excuse our weaponized government needed to label those parents “domestic terrorists.”

        You know, since I left my former party of tolerance and became an Independent, it has become quite clear to me that the truth is always found within the people on the ground.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Cindy Hayes says:

          Sure keep it up and we will dispatch a team of ninja drag queens to confiscate your gas stove.Report

          • Cindy Hayes in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            I don’t do kitchens, and it’s been years since I’ve been to a drag show but I do have friend that performed (in his younger years) & he is disgusted that their community has been highjacked by those who prefer to perform for children.Report

          • Cindy Hayes in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            Hey! You guys aren’t too bad & I could use that ninja to clean my 2nd story windows.

            Just so you know, I defend the liberal side of my family with conservatives also. It’s tough being an Independent having lived in both worlds.

            I wonder, do you know about the alternative media, parallel economy & can’t remember the other names, but it’s all the citizens from around the world being censored that includes liberals to the devout? It isn’t just politics but the abuse happening to citizens who depend on their governments everywhere. It’s growing rapidly out of need.Report

        • Patrick in reply to Cindy Hayes says:

          “Do you understand people of faith?”

          Depends upon the faith.

          “Or perhaps the rage a father feels when his young daughter has to “hold it” until she gets home lest she get abused in her facilities because the free lunch program in their school is now contingent on allowing boys in girls facilities.”

          My kid had to hold it for four years because the only place they were allowed to use the bathroom didn’t work for him (and didn’t want him there). So.

          Perhaps I understand this rage much more viscerally than you presuppose, and you might understand how this particular choice of argument is uncompelling to say the least.

          “Except that happened in our city because our country folks won’t comply.”

          Which city, which policy, and who was excluded?

          “You don’t think they saw that case in VA where they sent the rapist to another school, where he raped another girl, while their school board called the father a liar & had him arrested?”

          Well, I just googled “virginia teacher rapist” and I got this story:

          https://www.wtvr.com/2016/05/16/virginia-teacher-charged-with-raping-sexually-assaulting-2-students

          And this story:

          https://richmond.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retrial-begins-for-henrico-teacher-who-police-say-raped-student/article_d7a84ea6-9631-502f-81da-072041249fc9.html

          And this story:

          https://sports.yahoo.com/news/virginia-teacher-raped-child-encourages-155152484.html

          And this story:

          https://www.wric.com/news/taking-action/former-chesterfield-teacher-acquitted-of-sexual-contact-but-claims-left-a-mark-on-his-career/

          Seems like there’s some issues with sexual assaults in schools in Virginia generally I wonder why none of these other stories get a mention. That aside, I kept going… until I found this story, which I think is the one you’re talking about:

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/12/05/loudoun-school-sexual-assaults-report/

          Notably, though, the student doesn’t identify as transgender, was wearing women’s clothes as a disguise, and… Loudon has in place the “you can only use the bathroom of the gender assigned to you at birth”, which is an interesting side bit you neglect to mention. Maybe this wasn’t about bathroom policies.

          Also, from that article:

          “And the jury concluded the incident demonstrated a lamentable “breakdown of communication amongst multiple parties,” including the Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office, the Loudoun County Juvenile Court Service Unit and the Loudoun County Commonwealth’s Attorney’s Office.”

          … sound much more about law enforcement and the school district administration being collectively bad at their communication practices?

          “The Superintendent was fired recently over it, but his “cultural resentments” caused the rape of 2 young girls & the excuse our weaponized government needed to label those parents “domestic terrorists.””

          Yeah, it seems like this is an inaccurate way to describe this story.

          “You know, since I left my former party of tolerance and became an Independent, it has become quite clear to me that the truth is always found within the people on the ground.”

          Dave Rubin already has this schtick sewn up, don’t know that there’s room for two of you.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

      So while we can and should argue over economic policies, we shouldn’t assume that those who vote against their economic self-interests – even if they did so deliberately – are voting wrong.

      We can’t assume they are voting morally right either.

      Take education – for various reasons the GOP has decided public education, funded by local taxes and federal block grants – is anathema to America. Rural populations generally have few to no options outside public education, and yet they support a party that wants to take away that opportunity. Bad economics and bad morals.

      Or how about sex? Like it or not, people who are unmarried have sex. Even in rural communities. Especially in rural communities. Those people need both education on the impacts of unprotected sex, and the ability to have sex in a protected fashion. Yet the GOP has a similarly decades long war to keep kids sexually ignorant while denying them simple effective birth control. I don’t know what the economic argument is here, but the moral argument is unambiguously flawed.

      What else are rural voters mad about? They still have disproportionate representation in the Senate. Which means when it comes to agricultural tariffs they get economic protections other industries can only dream about. The Second Amendment? They have yet to loose their guns or their ammunition, and they are generally spared the scourge of handgun violence in cities.

      And that leaves the opioid crisis – where we have a long track record of the GOP ignoring the needs of the community and suppressing attempts at enforcement.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        I agree that we can’t assume the rural voter is right or wrong. You probably need to look at their weighting of the issues. Ideologues like you and me probably see one party as better than the other in all aspects, so our ranking of issues isn’t going to matter. But most people see strengths and weaknesses on each side, and for them, a single-issue analysis isn’t necessarily going to prove their vote to be miscast.Report

      • Cindy Hayes in reply to Philip H says:

        I moved to a Podunk town (no street light) in the deep south in the mid 80’s from Olympia WA. Both taught sex education, unprotected sex and all. I can’t say I knew about the Catholic schools plentiful here. Birth control was available as well.

        I am pro-choice, the old kind, so I don’t consider abortion birth control, especially since birth control became free to the public the exact year I no longer needed it. Until then, I paid my co-pay to ensure I didn’t get pregnant and I’ll be damned if I wish to pay for the irresponsibility of others (excluding rape/incest).

        Funny that many on here require all to adhere to whatever is considered this one size fits all morality. You know, where only people who think like them get to determine morality. Must come from the same morality handbook as censoring. What chapter condones abortion at birth?Report

        • Philip H in reply to Cindy Hayes says:

          I grew up in Louisiana. I’ve lived in Seattle, Florida, the National Capitol Region, and now back to coastal Mississippi. I know all the places and systems you know probably as well or better.

          No, Mississippi and Louisiana didn’t teach sex ed in school sin the 1980’s – I was in the schools here at that time. Sure, we got the film in health class about sperm and eggs and what they could produce – and the girls got segregated off to learn about their periods. But noting on the public dime about condoms or other birth control. And you sure couldn’t get any of that for free, and doubly not in schools.

          I’d also posit that you do pay for the irresponsibility of others – in your auto and homeowners insurance, in the cost of any good you buy that’s subject to liability litigation. So not wanting to pay for real sex ed and birth control for teenagers seems . . . disingenuous . . . . and none of us who support a woman’s body autonomy – including yours – condones abortion at birth (which is already term infanticide). It also doesn’t happen.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

            If abortion opponents meant a single word, contraception would be given out like candy in middle schools. Girls would be given constant encouragement to to be on reliable contraceptives and every boys restroom would have a free condom dispenser.
            But, as recent court cases have shown, they generally oppose that too.

            It about controlling women’s sexuality and always has been.Report

    • Jippo in reply to Pinky says:

      First World Problems (and lack of imagination).

      If “sending my children” to a poorer family would compromise their developing intelligence (nutrition), I would send them to the richer family. If sending my children to a poorer family would give them a more than 5% chance of death before they reach the age of majority, I would send them to the richer family, and trust my own teachings would give them enough moral fiber to see them through.

      I would send my children to the poorer family if they’d wind up permanently scarred, though, if it was not in a debilitating fashion. I would send my children to the poorer family, regardless, if I thought they’d be forced to torture others…

      I would be morally bound to send my child to the richer family, if the poorer family would fundamentally handicap their ability to make moral decisions [Brave New World-esque nutritional deficiencies that make one complacent or unable to rebel.]Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky says:

      I’ve never met an economist who praised Paul Krugman.

      Krugman used his Nobel Prize to become a Political commentator. His economic policies before that were fueled by the study of economics. His policies after that were fueled by needing to be popular and wanting to move things to the left.

      He’s not an economist anymore.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Krugman won in 2008. He had been a vocal liberal since the 1990’s, and was a blind partisan at least by early in the Iraq War. He won as a critic of Bush; the only question is whether he won for being a critic of Bush, and as I’ve said I’ve never heard his economics work praised by economists.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

          If that is so, and not merely another example of Pinky confusing the limits of his knowledge with the facts of the world, there ought to be lots of available stuff from real economists decrying Krugman’s Nobel. I look forward to seeing it.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to CJColucci says:

            lots of available stuff from real economists decrying Krugman’s Nobel.

            Krugman’s Nobel is solid. Krugman’s political commentary is a mix of pseudo economics and rage.

            I vaguely remember someone writing up a list of issues where old-Krugman-the-respectable-economist disagrees with current-Krugman but I can’t find it.Report

          • Emmi in reply to CJColucci says:

            Confusing “Krugman The Commentator” with the “Man who won the Nobel Prize” is a hilarious bit of ledgerdemain. He’s got a statue in Hungary, too!

            Still: you asked and the internet provides:
            evonomics.com/paul-krugman-trade-theory-nobel-gruen/
            austrianeconomists.typepad.com/weblog/2008/10/you-cannot-be-s.html

            Einstein’s Nobel Prize was a complete ripoff, too. The minutes from those meetings properly record that they wanted to give him a nobel prize for the General theory of Relativity… but nobody had proven it was more than a theory, even if they were pretty sure it was going to work.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Emmi says:

              I wasn’t “confusing” anything. I was specifically addressing Pinky’s comment that “I’ve never heard his economics work praised by economists.” Not a word about “Krugman the Commentator.” If you want to discuss Krugman the Commentator, take it up with someone interested in talking about him.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to CJColucci says:

                I had assumed they were talking about Krugman’s economic rants and not the Nobel Prize.

                Although if memory serves Krugman’s Prize was finding a situation where international trade would be an economic loser and not a winner. The idea was a gov could support it’s own business in one field, drive out other country’s businesses and thus establish a monopoly that could then be exploited.

                Whether that situation had every happened in the history of the planet was doubtful because it relied on levels of information and political discipline that normally don’t exist.

                It’s like describing in Physics equations how a flat planet can exist without actually finding one.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Dark Matter says:

                If you’re unsure what Pinky was talking about, ask him.Report

        • Brent F in reply to Pinky says:

          As I recall, he was an anti-Bush partisan early because he looked at what they were saying in his area of expertise and it was quite clear it made zero sense and they were probably lying. This was good pre-training for the Iraq years.

          This largely ended up being the GOP view of the Bush Admin as well, so I don’t see why you think being anti-Bush early is somehow disqualifying. It was prescient.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Brent F says:

            I’m not arguing about whether he was right or wrong. It was just an era when it was easy to get a Nobel Peace Prize for opposing Bush, and I think it explains his economics prize too. I mean, two US presidents and a VP won in the 2000’s, along with the IAEA, and we’ve still never gotten an explanation for Obama.Report

    • Cindy Hayes in reply to Pinky says:

      Well said, although it seems that many don’t know about the farmers complaining that the Global Green Ponzi Scheme policies are attacking their fertilizer source and the massive amounts of regulations making it next to impossible to process cattle.

      They also seem to be catching on better than those in the city, that these attacks are by design. Did you hear they arrested Amish Amos Miller for selling natural food to his same community that was legal before?

      But yes, country folks & people of faith, like here in Cajun Country, will give up money for morals and why even in the 4th largest city in our state, we don’t have to depend on the government (FEMA), to save our people or rebuild. The 3 largest are blue cities in our Red state. We are Red with the old kind of blue before woke, where our rural folks are kin.

      We have a free food & toiletry store in our poorest part of town. My neighbors, down on their luck with a young daughter, is helped by we neighbors in our subdivision. Ruth’s Angels dropped them gifts & money as well as birthday gifts for their daughters Jan birthday, for Christmas. They still have no idea who was responsible but since the card was religious I was spared having to convince them it wasn’t me (I have no stated religion & they don’t practice theirs).

      I grew up hugging a tree in Olympia WA (mothers family) and I refuse to visit there when I fly up to see family because it’s trashed & makes me sad. My Cajun side makes me sad to see the comments on here as they don’t appear to be informed at all & why I appreciate the thoughtful comment you made.

      I wonder how many of them know that legacy media has been allowed to monopolize down to 6 large conglomerates. 4 American owned, 2 foreign, that answer at the behest of their benefactors? I only patronize independent media, preferably reporting on the ground around the world.

      Thank you.Report

  7. Jaybird says:

    Instead of having an attitude of resentment for their loss of positional goods, maybe they should instead be grateful for the increase in absolute goods.Report

  8. LeeEsq says:

    Without the badly appropriated Senate, rural voters would basically be irrelevant. Also calling things like anti-racism and intersectionality, plus assuming that they loudest twitter activists are in control of the Democratic Party, reveals more about the writer of this post than it does the Democratic Party.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to LeeEsq says:

      “Without the badly appropriated Senate, rural voters would basically be irrelevant.”

      well, yes

      that’s kind of the whole point of the Senate, to express the founder’s notion that rural voters should not be irrelevant

      and it’s a notion expressed far more directly than peoples’ claim that “the pursuit of happiness” means same-sex marriage bans are an infringement on civil rights

      (and that latter is considered sound Constitutional reasoning)Report

      • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

        the whole point of the Senate, to express the founder’s notion that rural voters should not be irrelevant

        In those days, most of the voters were rural, and would remain so long after the last of the founders had decomposed in his grave.Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to CJColucci says:

          Yes, and I always took “small states” to mean the physically small ones like Rhode Island and Delaware whose populations would inevitably be much smaller than states like Virginia and Georgia and Pennsylvania which had (relatively) enormous room to grow their rural populations. The Founders almost certainly did not envision states like Wyoming: physically very large but with tiny populations.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Michael Cain says:

            One of the questions I thought needed to be researched was whether, once the government was up and running, there were coherent “small state” interests — interests of small states as such — and “large state” interests — interests of large states as such. I have trouble conceiving of an issue where New York, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Virginia would have been on one side and New Jersey, Rhode Island, Delaware, and North Carolina would have been on the other.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to CJColucci says:

              Texas and Florida as states should have many of the same interests as California and New York in a rational universe because all have large urbanized populations but they don’t. Culture war wins overall.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to CJColucci says:

              I think you’re right and practical matters very quickly became commerce and trade rather than large/small. The national bank and mint were early ones. New England opposed the Louisiana Purchase because (what would be) Midwestern farmers would gain a shipping route for grain* other than East Coast ports. Lots of tariff things.

              * One of the reasons Lincoln strongly favored preserving the Union early on was the probable cost to Illinois farmers to ship grain through what would be a foreign country to reach the Gulf.Report

          • LeeEsq in reply to Michael Cain says:

            That’s an interesting idea. I always thought that small states referred to states that were small in population regardless of geographic size. I’m pretty sure the Founders didn’t guess that urbanization would lead to geographically small states like New Jersey and Maryland holding a relatively big population either.Report

            • Pinky in reply to LeeEsq says:

              The Founders couldn’t have imagined things like The Netherlands and Brazil?Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to LeeEsq says:

              If you dig into it, Georgia sided with “large population” states because they figured they would be one, given their physical size and natural resources.Report

            • InMD in reply to LeeEsq says:

              I don’t think that’s really the source of the issue. What they didn’t foresee was the re-emergence of slavery as something so important that admission of new states would be tied to it starting with the Missouri compromise. Our state boundaries in more than a third of the country were set not around rational grography or even necessarily population density but around needing to have both a free state and a slave state for about a 50 year period.Report

      • Jesse in reply to DensityDuck says:

        I mean, James Madison wanted a proportionally representative Senate, and instead of being some great equalizing put on to stone tables from our Founding God’s, it was a political compromise.

        But, I think even the pro-Senate FFers would’ve been like, “wait 65:1? Really, you guys think we would’ve been cool with that?”Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jesse says:

          “I think even the pro-Senate FFers would’ve been like, “wait 65:1? Really, you guys think we would’ve been cool with that?””

          Considering that they didn’t even have the Senate directly elected, I think they’d have been like “yes, working as intended”.

          The Senate wasn’t supposed to be just Members 335 Through 435 Of The Legislature, it was supposed to be the Insider Friends-When-Not-In-Chamber Gentlemens-Club Backslapping Cabal that provided stability and continuity to the government. (As opposed to the directly-elected House Of Representatives, made intentionally overlarge and short-term so as to limit the influence of any one weirdo pushed into office by a bunch of crazies.)

          If you want to say “the FFers would have thought this weird”, they’d have thought it weird that someone could be in the House Of Representatives for literally decades.Report

          • KenB in reply to DensityDuck says:

            Interesting… my first reaction to this was that maybe by the time they died, they would’ve already seen some flaws in this assumption, but i found this study showing that the trend toward longer tenures didn’t get started until around 1900.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Without the badly appropriated Senate, rural voters would basically be irrelevant.

      They’re about 17.9% of the population.
      For perspective, African Americans are 13.6%.

      Figuring out how to ignore a brick of the population that large is probably something we shouldn’t be doing.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Without the badly appropriated Senate, rural voters would basically be irrelevant.

      I disagree. Depends on how you define “rural,” I suppose, but it could be as much as 45% of the national electorate. If we had national population election of the President, that’d be far too many to dismiss as “irrelevant.”Report

  9. LeeEsq says:

    Why is anti-racism silly while the gas stove culture war serious? Republicans engage in identity politics too when they do things like this. It just isn’t called identity politics because identity politics is only what the other party does to appeal to its voters.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Because Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!!!

      The ironic thing about the gas stove culture war is that there are only four or five states where the majority of residents have gas stoves. They are all very blue and very urban states.Report

  10. Marchmaine says:

    “First, farm subsidies primarily benefit large, corporate “farms” not type one would envision in Grant Wood’s painting, American Gothic. Second, the programs Krugman points to might have had a positive impact for rural residents”

    It’s much worse than this… Farm Subsidies are for Cities, not for Farms. They are akin to gutting the industrial base in favor of cheap TVs. You can point to the cheap TVs and cheap Eggs as big wins for everyone… but the economic policies come with costs we didn’t fully reckon with in the 70s and 80s when we went all in.

    There’s no turning back the clock or doubling down on Neo-Liberal economics… replatforming, solidarity and decentralization are a sustainable path forward. It means higher prices, but also greater food security, sustainable eco-agriculture, healthier products, and better distributed employment, ownership and profits for a much broader sector which will have secondary benefits to society as a whole. We live in a Society, after all.Report

  11. Pinky says:

    “breadbasket of deplorables”? has anyone coined that?Report

  12. Chip Daniels says:

    Republicans, zeroing in with laser-like precision on the things that matter to rural voters:
    Job? Haha no.

    DRAG QUEENS!
    http://www.wvlegislature.gov/Bill_Text_HTML/2023_SESSIONS/RS/bills/sb252%20intr.pdf

    A new bill in West Virginia redefines “Obscene material” to mean ANY transvestite or drag performance.
    Literally, just the act of wearing a dress is considered obscene.
    The Robin Williams movie Mrs. Doubtfire would be categorized as obscene under this bill.

    Which is what we’ve been saying.
    That for conservatives, the very existence of trans people is an affront and which they intend to eradicate.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Nobody figured out how to get politicians to stop writing flagrantly un-Constitutional laws as red meat for their audience. Liberal politicians tend to do this a lot less, but I’m sure you can easily find many examples of this behavior, but this bill clearly goes against the First Amendment. I don’t think the culture war ferment is going to calm down in my lifetime and I’m only in my early 40s.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Authoritarianism is always going to be with us, because its the thing that unhappy people drift into to provide an excuse for their behavior.

        In this political era, cultural conservatives feel threatened and are responding with rage and bigotry.

        Liberal people can’t change the intolerant, but one thing we can do is refuse to accept their lies or treat the essential dignity of marginalized people as something debatable.

        Specifically, the anti trans campaign is banking on using the idea of protecting children from obscenity which is universally popular as a cover for their cruelty.

        In their minds, “obscene” means showing men wearing dresses, or virtually any expression of non-hetero behavior and the targets go way beyond anything having to do with children.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      That for conservatives, the very existence of trans people is a threat and which they intend to eradicate.

      Fixed it for ya.Report

  13. Saul Degraw says:

    Considering that Krugman’s op-ed produced a ton of responses which amount to “how dare you, Paul Krugman.” I would say he has a point. The innate reflex of the rural population is defensiveness and to to treat any criticism as an attack on honor.Report