Promulgating Opacity In The Manufacture of Perceptive Understanding

Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

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45 Responses

  1. Brandon Berg says:

    Isabella, not Elizabeth.

    She comes off as kind of a piece of lèsè here.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Fun fact about “lèsè”: I first heard this word in an episode of Firefly twenty years ago, and for some reason it stuck in my head until I encountered it years later studying Mandarin. Taiwanese Mandarin (not to be confused with Taiwanese Hokkien, the primary language spoken in Taiwan prior to the KMT takeover, often referred to as just “Taiwanese,” and not mutually intelligible with Mandarin) is about as similar to standard Mandarin as American English is to British English. A given word will generally be pronounced the same way in Taiwan and China. Occasionally there will be a slight difference like a change in the tone contour.

      One of the few words that’s completely different is 垃圾, which is read as lājī in China and lèsè in Taiwan. So apparently people in the world of Firefly speak Taiwanese Mandarin specifically. I don’t know whether this was intended to suggest anything interesting about the course of history leading up to the events of the show. Maybe it was just that their language consultant was from Taiwan.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        I was going to mention Firefly, which often had the characters swearing and cursing in (IIRC) Mandarin so as to avoid Fox censors.

        No translation was ever provided.Report

        • Patrick in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          The Expanse never explains Belter.

          Heck, there’s lots and lots of movies that deal with foreign language that don’t provide subtitles for certain parts of the dialogue, or (like The Hunt For Red October) use a mix of no subtitles, subtitles, and switch-to-English for the sake of the viewer explicitly to add different context to the relevant scene(s).Report

          • InMD in reply to Patrick says:

            I loved the Belter patois.

            Interestingly in Hunt for Red October I don’t think they’re actually speaking Russian (or so a Russian speaker once told me), just making semi-Russian sounding noise. This is something I’ve noticed in John McTiernan directed movies. The same thing happens in Die Hard and Die Hard with a Vengeance, where the terrorists don’t actually speak German.

            A similar sequence occurs in the 13th Warrior but I am not sure if the Vikings are actually speaking some nordic language before it turns to English.Report

          • North in reply to Patrick says:

            Yeah it was a fun series and set of books but never made any darn sense in terms of economics or history. If you are lofting people a bajillion miles into space to work then treating them humanely is merely economic good sense. Also does water combust inside life forms or something in the Expanse world because there’s no universe where mining water out of the belt for Earth would be more economical than simply desalinating it or otherwise recycling it on Earth.

            But it made for a great story set anyhow.Report

            • InMD in reply to North says:

              I never read the books but on the show I always figured the poor treatment was something that evolved over time as populations grew on the various outposts. Like I would figure the highly specialized people in initial expeditions and settlement would be treated well but not necessarily those being born there after a couple generations. Admittedly I didn’t think that hard about it though.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                Sure, but even still the whole core of the “poor treatment” mantra of the Expanse was predominantly food/oxygen/space deprivation. In space with energy virtually unlimited and water available by the endless tons the idea of water (mined from space) or air (made by cracking limitless water with limitless energy) being scarce is ludicrous.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to North says:

                Nitrogen, carbon, and all the trace elements leak out of a space station all the time (unless the spaceships that carry such away have really good recycling and bring every bit of poop and piss back). My impression from the books is that — like most science fiction that has inners and outers — such things in quantities to support millions of people come with painful strings attached.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to North says:

              Water itself doesn’t combust, but in a habitat in space, it can be lost anytime someone opens the airlock, or via hull breach. Or it’s being shipped to new habitats.

              Or it’s being used as fuel.Report

              • North in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Sure, but in this fictional context the water is being shipped, across space, to Earth and Mars. So much water, for instance, that they had denuded Europa of its hydrosphere and were starting in on ring based water sources.

                Now I grant some space ships and habitats crack water and burn it as fuel and blast it out as propellant (though their main drives are some form of nuclear) but the idea that they drained Europa and that it’s more economical to move Europas water to Earth rather than just desalinate the oceans requires some serious explanation the author doesn’t provide. Nor do they need to, mind, it’s a book about sci-fi politics and sci-fi technology, not sci-fi economics.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Patrick says:

            Another good example.

            Personally, it doesn’t bother me, I can usually grok the meaning from context, so the specific translation isn’t important, although it may be interesting.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to Patrick says:

            Sure they do. They explain that a belter does not know fear. A Belter knows only sharpness.Report

  2. Wagon says:

    “If an author would rather take a chance that the audience doesn’t understand the word and won’t pick it up in context, that’s a pretty reasonable artistic decision. If people are angry about that they need to chill out. If she is angry that they are missing something because they don’t understand the words and refuse to look it up, she needs to chill out because she is the one that chose to put an unfamiliar word out there and expect the reader to do the work.“

    This is the correct answer to the vast majority of social media kerfuffles. I’m sure she did have some assholes that gave her some racist “this is America we talk English here” bullshit, because surprise surprise it’s a big country and there are assholes. But rather than do the reasonable thing and block the assholes or mute them, she went the “you entitled white people” route and ratcheted up the conflict.

    And I’m sure it can be hard to not respond in kind to bad faith trolls, that the constant bombardment is taxing. But that’s just another reason why social media is a scourge on society. It gives our worst an outlet to have outsized influence, whether it’s the racists in one end of the spectrum or the racists on the other. Like the good book says, surround yourself with fools, and you’re going to become a fool. Well, there’s a lot of fools on social media.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Wagon says:

      Who do you think her audience is? I’m sure its not some stock ugly American trope, but includes readers interested in multicultural topics that would like to know/understand more.

      Her later comment indicates she’s not interested in either: “The second anyone implies that white people might not be the target audience for something, it causes reader/writer meltdowns across Twitter.” It sounds like her intended audience is the Chinese diaspora in Vancouver.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Wagon says:

      Do you think the Internet would bat an eye if Irvine Welsh told people to f off for his use of Scottish slang in books and how it was hard to understand that in the midwest? Her post was a bit truculent but other people could be just as defiant without the harassment because they are white dudes.Report

  3. Zane says:

    Surely the key trigger for the controversy is the “especially white readers” bit.Report

    • Will Truman in reply to Zane says:

      It’s definitely true that without that she would have gotten a lot less notice, but a lot of the conversation that came did actually involve whether authors want to be understood. (Or maybe that’s what I gravitated towards.)Report

  4. Jaybird says:

    I was also under the impression that BIPOC was originally intended to be distinct from, say, AAPI people.

    Like “Minorities, but not Asians or Jewish people”.Report

    • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

      It doesn’t really matter. There’s no logical consistency or principle involved. It’s just how people communicate their status as a pretentious a-hole for the approval of other pretentious a-holes.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Jaybird says:

      She appears to be Canadian, there are no significant black people in her racial typology.Report

    • Will Truman in reply to Jaybird says:

      Yeah, I thought that was interesting. BIPOC seemed designed quite specifically to exclude AAPI from the “minority” subset.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Will Truman says:

        As far as I can tell, the Asian-American and Asian-Canadian community seem pretty split on whether they consider themselves BIPOC or not. My wife does not like the term POC but she has Asian colleagues that use it. Though my wife was also born and raised in Singapore and does not consider herself a minority.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Will Truman says:

        Officially, insofar as there can be an official definition, BIPOC stands for “Black, Indigenous, and People of Color.” In practice, many people use it to mean “Black and Indigenous People of Color.” So it’s not, in all cases, meant to exclude high-achieving minorities completely, but it’s definitely intended to deemphasize them due to their incompatibility with the narrative.Report

  5. J_A says:

    I’m of two minds here. I grew up in a family where everyone was multilingual, words in different languages were all around, and sometimes we switched languages to exchange private comments in a public setting. In that respect, I’m used to pick up the meaning of new words by context, and a footnote would break the rhythm of the reading. So, no footnotes.

    As long as the untranslated word is there to help set the mood, create the atmosphere, or add to the description. It cannot be a key element of the plot. I can read a story where a character having tarturok for breakfast brings memories of long gone summer vacations, without knowing what tarturok is. It would be very different than a story where the main character has to tarturok to save his wife. Then yes, I need to know exactly what is tarturok.

    If I were to write a novel where using many untranslated foreign words was an important part of the artistic decision, I think a glossary at the end would be a helpful compromise.it would bridge the cultural divide, which, I would expect, is what the author wanted to do here. Show the reader what her culture feels in the inside.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    I’ve never heard of her before. She seems young. Some examples of her poetry in the post would have been nice. My google abilities are failing me here. People are intimidated by poetry* in general and cultural contexts of foreign language are tough. Does she use Chinese characters or does she transliterate the characters into English?

    I can see both sides of the argument here on providing a translation or not but the way the argument seems to have unfolded seems to be a perfect tempest in a teapot argument. You have a young, presumably very online poet who defended her stance in a provocative way and then got the predicable blowback but also too harshly from very online young reactionaries and white nationalists.

    There is probably a way she could have defended her view without this being an internet tempest.

    *People are so intimidated by poetry that my view is that when someone calls themselves a spoken word artist it is a signal that they know the word poetry intimidates people.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      You can read a couple of her poems here.

      “On Forgetting a Language” is pretty good, I guess. I like the finish:

      If I return to my birthplace Jining now
      I will return as a foreigner,
      like the time I stepped on to this land ten years earlier
      as a Chinese immigrant
      and realized there was no place
      for my language in this new country.

      It does a good job of evoking what it must be like.
      But it’s easy to go from “so that’s how she feels” to “so that’s why she said that”.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Jaybird says:

        She used the term nian gao. Do people not know what Google is?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          Or context, for that matter.

          “I overindulged on on the spring rolls and nian gao”

          Even *I* knew that nian gao was a foodstuff. Even though (googles) yeah, even though I’ve never eaten that particular one.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

            I suppose it could also be music given the “wafting out of their windows” line, but the important thing is the whole “I am feeling homesick from the drip drops of my old culture that these others are drinking gulps from”.

            It doesn’t matter if it is food or music. It’s homesick.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          I have no idea what the context for the tweet was. What’s she responding to here? Maybe it was like two complaints in Amazon or Goodreads reviews.Report

  7. Doctor Jay says:

    Ezra Pound said of Eliot’s The Wasteland: “It was simple enough except for the four Sanskrit words at the end, and the meaning of three of those were clear eenough from the context”

    Whereas I had to have my English prof tell me what the Sanskrit words meant. There are no footnotes on The Wasteland.Report

  8. Saul Degraw says:

    I find it amazing that so many very online people do not recognize “this will end poorly” tweets when composing them. The reaction against her was unjustified and her poetic choice is defensible but she phrased her defense in such a way that it seemed design to provoke a strong and defensive reaction.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      There is a bit of joke on Twitter about never wanting to the main character of the day on Twitter. Cause if you’re the main character it’s for doing something ginormously stupid. Usually it’s just like this. Saying something either really dumb or taking a possibly good point then burying it under a couple tons of guano. There is always someone out there being loud and dumb. It’s Twiitertown Jake. The only really bad part of it is when people try to make something meaningful out of what is usually just dumb stuff.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        There is also the issue of tone-policing. As Zane pointed out above, the main catalyst for backlash was adding “especially white readers” and the term BIPOC also seems extra-efficient in pissing people off here.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          It started an entire subthread (on the original tweet itself) where BIPOC people explained to her that AAPI people were not BIPOC and she was explaining to them that they were.

          If I were to guess why she locked her account, it would be because of that argument.

          The whole “main character” thing among the thin-skinned cis-het non-BIPOCs? Who gives a crap? Them making a dogpile just demonstrates how right she was in the first place.

          But she became a main character among the people with whom she was most wanting to crab bucket.

          Nothing to do in that case but lock your account until it blows over.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        That truly is the danger of Twitter. It allows people to toss off any random thought without considering whether that thought really needs to be expressed. Those 3 words bought her a world of hurt and now that’s all anyone is going to remember about her.

        That said, I love it when authors toss in a foreign word or two. It’s a nice learning experience, at least for me.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Maybe it was. How many people who otherwise never would have heard of her are reading her poems today?Report

    • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      I am not on twitter myself but have heard a lot of my social circle discussing the dynamic of it and the rub of the matter seems to be that to explode out of one’s little curated circle of twitter one has to both say something that the masses will latch onto AND have the (mis)fortune of the twitter stars aligning in terms of active controversies, attention, twitter influencers picking it up and so on. Which means one can be happily signalling away in ones own curated circle with curated circle approved language and ticks and then, BOOM, one tweet is suddenly swept up into the gyre.

      I suspect it’d be like walking out the sidewalk from one’s house for years and then one day like any other day one of the sidewalk pavers randomly opens up into a spike filled pit.Report

  9. LeeEsq says:

    The problem with online politics is that it encourages some very performative behavior that comes across poorly. Like I’m sure arguments like this happened before but they were behind closed doors and with like minded people. Twitter and other social media seems to encourage releasing this to the world.Report