Discretion Has No Substitute: Lessons In Moving The Overton Window

Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Pursuer of happiness. Bon vivant. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. There's a Twitter account at @burtlikko, but not used for posting on the general feed anymore. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

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594 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    Burt, respectfully, I think this completely talks around all of the issues. To take the Shapiro example, he was there to give a lecture about the Supreme Court nomination process, a topic where he apparently has some expertise. He was not there to advocate Nazi causes, or child pornography, or any of the other examples. Are we really going to say that the Supreme Court nomination process is reasonably deemed outside of the Overton Window at a public university? The lecture he was going to give had been presented multiple times without incident. All that changed is a bad, foot in the mouth tweet.

    And what about the people who wanted to hear him speak? Do others get to veto it for any or no reason at all? Could they do this to any class or part of the curriculum, no matter how mundane?

    This entire debate has become a motte and bailey where the existence of a small handful of rightly taboo topics is used to chase perfectly mainstream ideas out of venues well suited to discuss them.Report

    • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

      This entire debate has become a motte and bailey where the existence of a small handful of rightly taboo topics is used to chase perfectly mainstream ideas out of venues well suited to discuss them.

      Before Twitter and other social media I might have agreed with you, in as much as Shapiro’s other views would have been less well known and thus not likely seen as impinging on his alleged expertise in the nominations process. But we have social media, he chose to use it, and claims of inartful posting which don’t refute or redress the actual content of the post are no longer a shield to bad ideas. Nor are those bad ideas able to be taken and compartmentalized. Shapiro got called out by future lawyers – perhaps even including a Supreme Court justice who might have benefitted from his perspective – because he put his own ideas in play in the public square, while thinking his “expertise” and his “professional standing” entitled him to spout off as he saw fit and be free of consequence.

      As I pointed out in the other thread on the NYT editorial – we no longer live in a world where people (me included) are free from the consequences of their speech, much less the ideas and beliefs underlying that speech. Shapiro thought he was free from those consequences.

      And as Burt notes – the people wanting to hear him speak had the obligation to make a convincing argument that his expertise on SCOTUS nominations was worth listening to despite his tweets – and the underlying beliefs they represent. So far as I know, they have yet to do so.Report

      • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

        So your belief is that every person who speaks at a university is subject to the veto of any individual student attending? If 5 people don’t want someone to speak but 50 people do the 5 just win, sucks to be everyone else? How on Earth is such a thing workable?

        This is childish and I think you know that. If the ‘future lawyers’ aren’t able to comport with themselves with simple rules of decorum then they aren’t fit to practice law.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

          My belief is that people who choose to use social media to share or espouse their views then they should be prepared to deal with the reaction to those views, instead of expecting those views to be held in some compartment somewhere so their other view or experiences can be heard. We should expect – and frankly demand – that the whole person be present and be accountable of the whole person presents themselves.

          If 5 people don’t want someone to speak but 50 people do the 5 just win, sucks to be everyone else?

          No. The 5 get their say, and then the 50 make a responsive case as to why they speaker needs to continue. If its persuasive, whether it agrees with the 5 or not, the speech goes forward. You want to let the 50 off the hook. I’m not going to do so.

          And last I checked, protests were and are not about expressing decorum – they are about creating discomfort to call attention to something. Which those students did. Should I ever find myself in need of legal services I’d be far more inclined to seek those students out. They were willing to zealously advocate for their cause. One presumes they would do so for their clients. We need more of that, not less.Report

          • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

            Stop dodging the question. Does that mean that any discussion is subject to individual veto in a university setting? Yes or no?

            You’re also wrong about what lawyers do. Lawyers serve clients. If you cannot control yourself, or if you can’t follow the rules in your advocacy, you will fail your client which means you are also failing as a lawyer.Report

            • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

              Does that mean that any discussion is subject to individual veto in a university setting? Yes or no?

              Yes – that’s part of what academic discourse is all about. That’s what free speech is all about. That’s the whole point of Burt’s piece – if you want to put your ideas into the public square, you need to be prepared for the reactions to those ideas. Especially when those ideas do, in fact, violate societal norms. Shapiro was shouted down because is ideas fell outside those norms. He expected to be able to lay them out and not be held accountable for them because of his alleged expertise on something else. And if his expertise was that important, the people wanting to hear from him had and still have the obligation to make the case for his expertise. To my knowledge they have not done so.

              More succinctly – his ideas are no longer severable from his professional expertise because he chose to put them in the public square. That opens him up to protest, objection and veto in any setting, academic or not.

              You’re also wrong about what lawyers do. Lawyers serve clients. If you cannot control yourself, or if you can’t follow the rules in your advocacy, you will fail your client which means you are also failing as a lawyer.

              I have been served by lawyers on numerous occasions in civil matters. The ones who cared more about decorum then advocacy for my position generally were unsuccessful. The ones who were willing to push the line and advocate strongly were generally successful in achieving my goals. YMMV.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

                So that’s just it then for you? Cede the university to the loudest voice whoever it happens to be? No implications whatsiever for learning with that approach?

                And I guess I can’t speak for your attorneys. Anything is possible I suppose but I somehow doubt they were just totally disregarding rules, customs, and procedures.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                I don’t see Philip suggesting that the protestor has to make an argument against allowing a person to speak, they just need to show up and be disruptive enough to prevent the speech. It’s apparently on the people who want to hear the speech to persuade the protestor they are wrong (presumably while talking over the hypothetical airhorn).Report

              • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                You got it. And more to the point (again) we no longer live in a world where people’s ideas and beliefs can be or should be compartmented off form their expertise. If they put their ideas in the public square they SHOULD expect push back on those ideas even when their nominal appearance elsewhere doesn’t focus on that idea. Shapiro erred in thinking he was immune to that.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

                There’s a difference between being pushed back against and enforcing your preference against others simply because you have a method of silencing them despite others want to hear.

                You want to shut down a speaker, you convince people to not attend the speech.Report

              • North in reply to Philip H says:

                So only experts are allowed to opine on given subjects now? And only after they’ve passed through certain credentialing? Have we settled on new names for these castes? I suppose using the term Brahmin would be cultural appropriation wouldn’t it but then again I don’t think either of us hold a degree on DEI or CRT so I suppose we’re not qualified to talk about it in general?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to North says:

                “Allowed”? Of course. But non-experts assume the normal risks of opining on things they know nothing about.
                That’s free speech, after all.Report

            • Brandon Berg in reply to InMD says:

              Am I correct in thinking that a lawyer employing the heckler’s veto in court would likely be held in contempt, or has TV lied to me?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                Everytime the prosecutor tries to speak, the defense just blasts an airhorn. The defense doesn’t even show up with a briefcase, just a Costco pack of airhorns.Report

              • Brandon Berg in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                It’s outrageous that you need seven years of higher education to qualify to operate an airhorn. It should be a combined five-year program.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                “I can’t believe the jury found my client guilty! We never even let the prosecutor talk!”Report

              • InMD in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                At a certain point, yes, that could happen. There are rules for how and when you can interrupt and judges have different attitudes and levels of tolerance. But you’re never going to be permitted to just shout down the other side.

                This goes beyond the typical courtroom stuff everyone thinks about. A lot of practicing law, even in the non-litigation world, is dealing with difficult people (including your own clients) and adversarial situations. There aren’t a lot of opportunities to truly drown someone else out or silence someone. Trying to do that will more than likely have an adverse consequence for your client whose interest you are supposed to serve.Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

            That’s the Heckler’s Veto.Report

    • Kristin Devine in reply to InMD says:

      Thank you so much for this comment. This is it in a nutshell.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      We all agree that we shouldn’t be talking about Z, right?

      Of course.

      And we all agree that we shouldn’t be talking about Y, right?

      Of course.

      And we all agree that we shouldn’t be talking about X, right? Well, most of us. If you want to find people who want to talk about X, you’re going to be nutpicking.

      And we all agree that we shouldn’t be talking about W, right? They might talk about W in some dark corners but we agree that talking about W causes more harm than squashing talk about W, right?

      And we all agree that we shouldn’t be talking about V, right?

      “I would kind of like to talk about V.”

      “Oh, do you want to talk about Z too?”Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        I don’t think you even need a slippery slope hypothetical to illustrate how stupid this is. Per Philip’s philosophy above an actual neo-Nazi should have been permitted to disrupt my history of the Holocaust class because he didn’t believe it happened. Or some FOP advocate could have come into the room and shouted everyone out at my alma mater when Radley Balko visited to talk about a recent botched SWAT raid. People can yell at each other on the streets until the cows come home but this defeats the core purpose of a university.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

          Red Herring. Sure, he should be allowed to disrupt it, and then he should be ready for the massive shaming and physical violence against his person that would ensue. And his mouthing off such lies would very helpfully reinforce the point of how and why the Holocaust came to be.Report

  2. Russell Michaels says:

    This is important to note. What were his ideas that were so off the reservation? I find the MGTOW types just lonely people with zero ability to win over a woman or too scared to try, but what was his thesis or argument?Report

  3. Oscar Gordon says:

    “Which is why you should consider what direction you’re really pushing it towards, even if it’s only a little tiny push you’re capable of.”

    Why does only the ‘editor’ need to concern themselves with how they are pushing the window, and the protestor of speech (not someone who disagrees with the topic, but someone who is working to shut it down) get a pass on that?

    To take InMD’s point above, if you get 5 protestors with airhorns or electronic bullhorns, they get to push the Overton window around all they like without having some responsibility for it to the 50 people who thought the window was acceptable.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Precisely.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      There’s an underlying issue of enforceability here.

      In principle, I think Burt is wrong to include that kind of disruptive protest within the bounds of free speech or academic freedom. It generally isn’t, and I think it’s a mistake to treat it as one. It’s completely acceptable, for instance, to kick people out of a lecture hall for disrupting the lecture.

      Allowing a one person veto is untenable.

      But at a certain point, principles are going to run into practical considerations. If you’ve got 51 people there, and 50 are disrupting it because they think Shapiro’s views are repulsive enough that they shouldn’t be entertained, well, good luck holding the lecture.

      Should protesters think about the impact they’re having on the Overton Window? Well, I’m not going to speak for Burt, but my answer is absolutely. It’s generally important to know what the fuck you’re doing and why, and I’d say that goes double for disruptive and probably illegal protests.

      But if you want them to do that and let Shapiro speak, you will almost certainly need to persuade them that his lecture should be heard. I think at this point it’s obvious that appeals to abstract principles about discourse don’t work, won’t work, and may never have worked.

      That means actually addressing what Shapiro said, and defending it at least to the extent that you argue that it shouldn’t be disqualifying. If you aren’t actually willing to offer that defense, and have that debate, it suggests that maybe you don’t believe it either, leaving me wondering why you want to present Shapiro’s views to begin with.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

        Allowing a one person veto is untenable.

        Thank you!

        To be honest, I think pulling stunts like protestors snatching up all the tickets and then sitting in the lecture with noise cancelling headphones on while they read or listen to something is a fantastic form of protest, not only because it is painfully obvious to everyone what is going on, it also shows that you don’t have a minority engaging in a heckler’s veto, you had to get enough people to care to fill those seats. Likewise, your hypothetical of 49 raucous protestors and 1 person who wants to listen is valid. Again, it demonstrates that you have a significant number of people who disagree with granting a forum to the speaker.

        As to what Shapiro said, I’ll bite (given what little I know about what he said). It sounds like a standard argument against Affirmative Action. If you only seek a candidate based upon a criteria not directly relevant to the job, you close out other potentially better candidates who fail to meet that criteria. It’s a statistically true statement. There are very good arguments for why using such criteria over-rides the statistical reality, and we don’t need to re-hash those here.

        And if I recall, Shapiro’s preference was not some white guy, but a Progressive of Indian heritage (a group that has very little representation in the courts, IIRC). So it’s not like he was pushing for a white guy.

        Now, the whole bit of “lesser black woman” (that gets quoted a lot, so I will assume it’s not a misquote) is, well, rude. But, that could very well be his opinion of Judge Jackson, that she is not a very good judge and would be an inferior choice for SCOTUS. Obviously, that is a matter of taste and one could argue the point all day and not change any minds of note. So yes, it was an ‘inartful’ statement, and he copped to basically being impolite and apologized.

        I’m not sure why he should also apologize for criticizing Biden for his choice to limit his candidate pool to a specific demographic? That is a political choice Biden made, and political choices should ALWAYS be open to criticism, regardless of intent. Anyone, including Burt, who thinks that Shapiro should apologize for criticizing Biden over this needs to make an argument that isn’t special pleading for why this choice should be above reproach?Report

        • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          This is exactly my point about the motte and bailey thing above and similar to a question I asked on the NY Times post yesterday. If you can’t talk about things like this at a university where can you? It’s absurd.Report

        • You can see two of the tweets here: https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1486696022516682752

          Note that they came out before Jackson was picked; Shapiro is calling ever black woman “lesser”. In the second tweet, he says she’ll be an affirmative action pick that will have an asterisk next to her name.

          He had had this to say about Sotomayor:

          “In picking Sonia Sotomayor, President Obama has confirmed that identity politics matter to him more than merit,”

          His “apology” was

          “I apologize. I meant no offense, but it was an inartful tweet. I have taken it down.”

          Which is a set of lies. It wasn’t one tweet, nor was it “inartful”; it was exactly the sort of thing he does.

          Anyway, the argument isn’t that Shapiro has been unfairly accused; it’s that even an offensive ahole has rights.Report

          • pillsy in reply to Mike Schilling says:

            Anyway, the argument isn’t that Shapiro has been unfairly accused; it’s that even an offensive ahole has rights.

            Absolutely. It’s just that those rights don’t include being a guest lecturer at UC Hastings.

            Now the UC Hastings Federalist Society does have rights to invite guest speakers, even dickfaces like Shapiro, and you can make a decent enough case that letting students shout down their chosen dickface meant those rights weren’t respected.

            But this makes me somewhat doubtful about the specific failing of the university administrators here. It’s not that they are treating students with too much deference (because they give a ton of deference to student orgs like the Federalist Society). It’s that neither the administrators nor the Federalist Society were able to offer a defense of Shapiro and his comments that anybody found remotely persuasive.

            Maybe no such defense existed, but seeing how many defenses out there simply go unmade. I haven’t done a particularly thorough investigation of what arguments, if any, either the UC Hastings administration or the campus Federalist Society made in Shapiro’s defense, but I am serenely confident that they did not include the following:

            “This guy made some awful comments that are both sexist and racist, and his ‘apology’ that they were ‘inartful’ was woefully inadequate. However, such comments, and the underlying sexist and racist sentiments that animate them, are dismayingly prevalent outside of academic settings, and indeed do influence the way that people are nominated and approved for the federal judiciary.”

            Instead, I’m pretty sure everyone involved either remained silent or pissed on the students’ legs and told them it was raining for the zillionth time.

            Crazy how that didn’t work.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

              I disagree. Not on the offensiveness, per se (he’s experienced enough to know better than to be inartful), but on the reaction.

              You don’t like Shapiro and don’t think he’s contrite enough, fine. That is your personal opinion and I’m not going to try and convince you otherwise. But that opinion of the person, regardless of how intensely you hold it, does not grant you the right to demand a societal norm to disrupt a forum provided by others solely based upon your opinion of the person.

              Don’t like the guy, don’t attend his talks.

              The people providing Shapiro a forum have no obligation to offer up a defense of their invitation, and no one else has a right to expect one. Or should people be able to stop Obama from talking because they are still mad about “Bitter Clingers”, or HRC because of “Basket of Deplorables”?

              Now, if the topic of the talk was about the Inferiority of Female Black Justices serving on the federal bench, that is probably far enough outside any Overton Window that a protest should be expected (if not demanded).

              But let’s not confuse the issue here. There are topics of conversation inside and outside the window, but to place a person, in their entirety, outside of the window, you are going to have to lift a hell of a lot more than just “I found his apology to be inadequate”. This isn’t Richard Spencer we are talking about here. Hell, it’s not even Ben Shapiro. You need to argue that the person steps far enough outside the window often enough that the person themselves should be kept outside the window.

              But all I’m hearing from those defending the disruption of an invited speaker is “I’m offended because that person did not sufficiently cater to my personal expectations regarding apologies.”, which is a longwinded way to declare you are butthurt about the person.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                But that opinion of the person, regardless of how intensely you hold it, does not grant you the right to demand a societal norm to disrupt a forum provided by others solely based upon your opinion of the person.

                Nobody demanded a norm. The students just showed up and disrupted the the form regardless of the fact that they didn’t have any right at all to do so, and (IMO) violated the rights of the Federalist Society members to invite the speaker of their choosing.

                That seems like an outcome that’s not great unless you already think that Ilya Shapiro should be binned entirely.

                So maybe the Federalist Society and the administration don’t owe those students a defense of Shapiro, but that doesn’t preclude offering one, and it doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t offer one even if it’s an unfair imposition.

                You need to argue that the person steps far enough outside the window often enough that the person themselves should be kept outside the window.

                My position is the opposite. Regardless of whether he should be moved outside of the Overton Window, as point of fact he’s well within it and students should deal with that reality. The hypothetical argument that the administration could have made is the one that I would make.

                Also, as an aside, the topic he was speaking on–the Supreme Court nomination process–was exactly the same topic he made his bigoted Tweets about. I don’t think that’s essential to this line of debate, but it definitely undermines the argument that his perspective is of particular value.

                EDIT to add: also, as for offering un-owed defenses, this is a school. Sometimes teaching means getting through to people who aren’t owed an argument.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                The school doesn’t really need to offer one, the school didn’t invite him & didn’t host him. There was no good reason to interfere with the invitation, and honestly, college students should understand that and not have to have it explained again and again.

                The FS perhaps should have offered one, but to who? A defense of something kinda requires an attack to defend against. Did students who were upset offer up a petition with a coherent argument against allowing him to speak on campus, something that was strong enough to overcome the mission of fostering discussion & debate?

                Lacking that, no defense should be required.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                The school doesn’t really need to offer one, the school didn’t invite him & didn’t host him.

                What the heck does the word ‘host’ mean to you?

                Also, if the school didn’t ‘host’ him, then why is the school even slightly relevant to this discussion? Why are you and the National Review demanding the school weigh in about some sort of loud shouted discussion that apparently happened sorta randomly in one of their rooms for some reason? Surely there can’t be some sort of official ‘speaker’ if it isn’t a school-sanctioned event at all.

                Oh, wait, no, that’s stupid, because it was, in fact, the school who handed over a room to the Federalist Society to allow Shapiro to speak.Report

      • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

        I believe you are getting very close to what IMO the real issue is with these blow-ups at universities, that being a failure of nerve by faculty and administrators. At a certain point they need to take ownership of which values supersede others in the institution that is their charge. The good news for them is that with respect to public schools the state has usually done that for them. The sad news is too many have decided that the students are their equals, and that their fleeting interest in the place is on equal footing as the long term interests of the institution iteself.

        So out on the street or a public park the law of the (speech) jungle applies. But at a university if the processes have been followed to bring someone on-site to speak, that person and the people who invited win, up to and including using coercive means to prevent or halt a disruption. If they make the wrong call then they have to own it but that just comes with the territory. Right now they are chosing not to do their jobs and the ruckus is the result.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

        The problem is that everyone wants to act innocent and coy about what the Federalist Society did here. What it did was a bomb throwing action itself. The invite appears to have come after Shapiro made his infamous tweets and then deleted them. I don’t know how you can view the application as anything beyond a deliberate troll.

        What a lot of people want to do because it is convenient for various reasons is deny that owning the libs is a very powerful pull for people and it is not really about good faith argumentation but merely being deliberate jerks. I think if Shapiro was invited but did not make his tweets, there would be no story. But the basic thing that people are trying to defend is “we are going to be miscreants and don’t you dare challenge us.”

        “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” -Jean Paul Satre in Anti-Semite and Jew.

        Variants of this seem to happen daily on the Internet and in real life and the Hastings incident with Shapiro is awfully close to what Satre is describing here. But everyone just denies it. It is rather frustrating at times.Report

  4. Russell Michaels says:

    This article spends thousands of words to ignore mentioning the heckler’s veto.Report

  5. Pinky says:

    This site would have been better served by publishing the men’s rights article.Report

    • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

      No it wouldn’t have. I think there’s a good case to be made for a lightly, but well moderated framework. The editors have the right to make that call, and someone needs to be there to make it. The problem in the university context isn’t that there’s a dean or a professor that sets the agenda. The problem is the idea that any individual student no matter how sensitive or crazy gets an override.

      This site would probably not be possible if any member of the commentariat got a veto on every post. It isn’t some crazy paradox of free speech that the quality and the debate is better for not taking that approach.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

        There’s also the reality that while the site might be well served with a rebuttal MRA essay, the person offering to write would be a very poor choice of author.Report

      • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

        I’m not calling for the veto of any article. I’d like to see a greater intellectual range.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD says:

        Yes, it would have. You notice how he neglects to mention what was so odious about that person’s views. It’s a fait accompli that his views were bad with no discussion of them.Report

        • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels says:

          Do you disagree with that particular call or with the concept of an editorial stance more generally? Free-for-alls have their place but you will never get to baseball with the rules of Calvin Ball.Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD says:

            I think all views should be debated. It is in debate that we forge our shared humanity.Report

            • I for one welcome our new Nazi subblog.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                I love how because a view is toxic, it is our responsibility to categorize all views, even boilerplate political ideas, on levels of toxicity.Report

              • There’s a wide range of things we can agree to discuss, but it’s not “all views”. The Holocaust deniers are going to keep at it, no matter how often they’re shown to be liars, and letting them pollute OT isn’t defending speech. Likewise the MRAs, the “race realists”, and a host of others.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                It actually is. No views are by nature off limits. When you decide that, you will never convince those who hold those views to change their ways. Challenge them to defend their toxic views. You do realize black men did that with Klan members during the last two centuries, right?Report

              • When you decide that, you will never convince those who hold those views to change their ways.

                NeoNazzzzeeee Skinheads are rarely persuaded to cast off their views by being allowed to espouse them and then questioning them. Ditto Flatearthers. Or 2020 Truthers.

                You do realize black men did that with Klan members during the last two centuries, right?

                And got lynched for it. Literally.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

                Bro, a former skinhead travels the country talking about how he helped other skinheads get better. You just want to wall off people as irredeemable. How very inhumane of you.Report

              • NeoNazzzzeeee Skinheads are rarely persuaded to cast off their views by being allowed to espouse them and then questioning them.

                I accounted for him in my comments. The KKK members I grew up around were both open and irredeemable about it. They would no doubt have labeled him derisively as a cuck for “caving” to the other side. They did not see anything wrong with their world views – if anything we were the ones who they viewed as irredeemable. They had no interest in questioning or changing.Report

              • They did that in person over a long period of time, not in a blog comments section.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Then what are we doing?Report

              • Conversing, as opposed to converting.

                If we attract bigots, we’re not going to persuade any significant number of them. We’re simply going to regress our comment section to the internet mean.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                How do you know that?Report

              • Because

                1. In all the years I’ve been on the internet, going back to USENET days, I’ve never seen that kind of conversion stem from posts or comments.

                2. Most comment sections are vile garbage. Ours is not, largely because even when things get heated we show respect for each other. Posting content that appeals to people whose MO is disrespect would at best endanger and likely destroy that.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                And that’s your opinion.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                It’s the wrong venue for converting them, and the ones you’ll get are self-selecting for being the sort of bigots who want to fight with non-bigots to score points and make the comment sections worse.

                Also, to be blunt, Internet bigots are now, and have long been, among the worst forum citizens you can find.[1] I don’t just mean by flouting any other norms of discussion out there, but being eager to doxx people, harass them offline, and try to get them fired.

                Hell, for all that I was a proto-edgelord at one of the schools that was (and remains) synonymous with “crazy lefty college students” in the ’90s[2] the only person who ever tried to get me in offline trouble for my political opinions was a Holocaust denier from Texas.

                [1] I too have been doing this shit since USENET.

                [2] Back when people were calling it “political correctness” rather than “cancel culture”.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                Yes, but you are saying that because it won’t work (which you haven’t proven,) we shouldn’t even attempt it. That’s decidedly anti-intellectual.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                No it isn’t.

                I am saying based on all available evidence, there’s little reason to think it would work [1], and a lot of reasons to believe that it would have other costs, like making this forum distinctly less present for its current user base.

                That’s not “anti-intellectual”, it’s just baseline thinking something through before you do it.

                Also, like, if this place were just another place to fight with bigots, I’d either straight up leave or behave in a much less civil manner than I do now. I’m still crankier than most commenters here, and when the place had actual identifiable unbanned bigots I was worse, and so was pretty much everyone else.

                I don’t enjoy fighting with bigots. Many other people don’t enjoy fighting with bigots. People who do enjoy fighting with bigots–or believe that they can convert them–have numerous other options for doing so.

                This place is something I do for personal enjoyment and enrichment and because I like the people here. Bringing in a ton of people I don’t like would make this place worse for me.

                Why should I want that?

                [1] Even the evidence you provide says it’s possible to de-scumbaggify skinheads, but does nothing to indicate that online engagement is a viable method for doing so.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                Yes, it is.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                OK good talk.

                You clearly have all the rhetorical chops you’ll need to be converting Nazis left and right.Report

            • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              To me there is nothing illegitimate about the fact that there are certain articles I’d read in the Economist that would never be in Mother Jones and vice-versa. The rules need to calibrate to the vision. I think OT does a pretty good job especially since it relies on voluntary contributions.Report

            • Greg In Ak in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              Shared humanity is a good value and one i would agree we should build towards. Respecting people is one way to build that which in some cases will mean the OT doesn’t want MRA crap on it’s pages out of respect for what they feel their readers want. Treating people well builds humanity so that suggests using things like preferred pronouns or not exclaiming “***** ******g ******” loudly with believers around.

              Treating people well, caring for them and what matters to them builds a shared humanity.Report

  6. This game some of you play where you pretend that nothing in discourse has sharply and dramatically changed over the past ten years is so disingenuous I can’t even with this. I’ll refer you to Freddie deBoer who has a few receipts: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-throw-me-a-bone-with?s=r

    This article is not only factually untrue (hey, nice way to characterize Shapiro’s tweets without actually including them! TOTALLY forthright!) but runs contrary to the spirit – or what I was told was the spirit of this site anyway, sadly I no longer believe it – of Ordinary Times.

    Even tho I skimmed this pretty fast for purposes of my blood pressure, couldn’t help but notice that there was no mention of George Carlin, Lenny Bruce, Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King Jr, the Red Scare, the gay rights movement, suffragettes, the Iraq War, etc etc etc or about a zillion other arenas in which the left wing RIGHTFULLY defended free speech/free association or defends/celebrates the free speech/association of those historical figures, even tho the Overton Window of society as a whole at that time was decidedly NOT in favor of those people and groups having free speech at the time and plenty of folks thought they should shut their fool mouths.

    Should we as a culture have the right to shame and shun people who have unpopular political viewpoints? You know, people like suffragettes, and Frederick Douglass! Burt apparently thinks HELLZ YA! Because an imaginary window told him so!!!

    Guess what, this amorphous hallucination called “The Overton Window” is not a good way to treat discourse, not on this site or anywhere else. Because hey, the window can be in the wrong spot, and even when it’s in the right spot, if it’s such a great and perfectly placed window then the FEW people who would then fall outside of it, even when they’re super gross and totally wrong, are easy to defeat. When I see people fearing those outside the Overton Window, it kinda makes me think the window is actually not in such a good place after all and they’re trying to move it. Fringe weirdos aren’t threats, and justifying expanding this window of “allowable” polite discourse or whatever to encompass “every opinion I don’t personally like” is not the act of a hero. It’s the move of a scared authoritarian who doesn’t even believe in what they believe in. Because when you DO have for-real beliefs that go down to the very core of your being, you ain’t scared of no one. If your beliefs are so great, obvious, the highest achievement and evolution of all humankind, then shouldn’t they be EASY to defend?

    Frankly I would have LOVED to take on a men’s rights activist. Thanks for denying me the privilege. Guess it’s better for them to skulk around in their own spaces where they never have to face any challenges regarding their toxic opinions! Guess it’s better for the readers of this site to never see the counterarguments! Guess that between Em, Veronica, Filly, Maribou, myself and many other smart and awesome women on this site, we just weren’t good enough to handle shutting down some irrational douchebag’s weak and foolish arguments!! Thanks for the protection, good sir!

    To put it another way, how fabulous for the quality of discourse it was that Jake and Elwood got stopped by that police barricade before they ever got to the Nazis! Better yet, maybe Jake should have never got out of Joliet to start with! Surely that would have been a major improvement to the cultural fabric!

    I cannot believe in this big bad world full of fascinating things to write about, ThE CoNsErVaTiVeS ArE WhINiNg AbOuT SpEEcH AgAIn!!!! is what you choose to spend your time on. Amazing.

    You guys continue worrying about the menu while the restaurant is burning down around you, and while I know you think that the fire is your friend and the winds are favorable, fire has a way of getting out of hand and burning everything and everyone in its path. The time to stop the witch hunt was back when people were murmuring about witches and surreptitiously pointing fingers at people, and not when those weird ladies who lived out in the woods picking herbs are having the wood piled up against their feet. Yes, those chicks are strange and have stupid and in many cases actively harmful beliefs, and hey, they may even be consorting with Satan, who knows? But the people burning them at the stake are the real bad guys here.

    Who you gonna stand with?

    Seriously though, at what point are any of you going to start to have some concerns? How many witches are they going to have to burn before you decide “hmm maybe this imaginary indefinable window that shifts constantly that I froze in time at a moment when I thought my side was winning, was not the best way to structure our concept of acceptable speech?? Perhaps something, oh, I don’t know, codified into some sort of a legal set of protections that apply to everyone equally instead of weaponized to use against people whom I don’t personally like?”

    A lawyer wrote this. A lawyer. Unbelievable.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      I thought it was weird to praise Jake and Elwood without even mentioning that that scene was a reaction to the Skokie case which was, until recently, frequently cited as an example of the ACLU (RIP) taking an admirably principled stand in defense of a right far more important than the content of any particular speech act.

      Also, I guess maybe people cheered at that in 1980, but in 2022, using National Socialists as a punching bag is just bad comedy. Not because they’re not terrible, but because they’ve been so universally seen as synonymous with evil for so long that it comes off as just about the safest, cheapest play for clapter imaginable.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      Expertly said. I’ve already a 2,000 word response to Burt.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      Even tho I skimmed this pretty fast for purposes of my blood pressure, couldn’t help but notice that there was no mention of George Carlin, Lenny Bruce, Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King Jr, the Red Scare, the gay rights movement, suffragettes, the Iraq War, etc etc etc or about a zillion other arenas in which the left wing RIGHTFULLY defended free speech/free association or defends/celebrates the free speech/association of those historical figures, even tho the Overton Window of society as a whole at that time was decidedly NOT in favor of those people and groups having free speech at the time and plenty of folks thought they should shut their fool mouths.

      Absolutely true, proving both that attacks on free speech are old news, not a new “cancel culture,” and,
      incidentally, highlighting where, historically, the threat has come from.

      Shaming and shunning, however, are themselves free speech. You can’t expect to say unpopular things without becoming unpopular. As Max Gottlieb explained to his fictional protege, Martin Arrowsmith, you can’t expect both freedom and the rewards of popular slavery.

      That, said, just as the people pushing back on offensive speech have a right to push back, people who push back against the pushers-back have a right to do that. Freedom is messy, and not always polite. Whether a particular incident calls for condemnation, of course, depends on what’s true about the incident. The Yale law students protested briefly, walked out, and things went on. Fine. It may be that the Georgetown protestors actually shut down the proceedings, though whether they or clueless administrators are to blame remains to be seen. If so, not fine. Denounce away. Discipline. Shame and shun the protesting students. That speech can have consequences cuts every which way.
      Sadly, we rarely have honest and useful reports of what actually happened and why, and we end up with a “usual suspects” list of victims of some supposedly new and pervasive cancel culture, all too many of whom have no more to complain about than that someone was mean to them. But none of it is new — I’m old enough to remember not just the last ten years, but the political correctness moral panic of the nineties, and actual use of force and the law against dissenting voices decades before that. Except for technology, the only difference is a wider set of players in the same sorry game. The novelty of which seems to overwhelm any evaluation of where the main threats are coming from.
      Denounce any specific instances you want, though don’t be surprised if not everyone buys the account you’re relying on. Fight any particular threat that engages your interest. Just don’t whinge about the same old same old as if it’s new.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      If you want to see the argument we had at the time, I’d bet five bucks that it was a response to this post here.

      I’m guessing that one of the dudes in the comments said “I would like to write a post”. (I’d parlay the bet to guess which one as well.)

      That’s my guess.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      Should we as a culture have the right to shame and shun people who have unpopular political viewpoints?

      I’ll bite this bullet and say yes.

      Because the individual rights that allow people to hold and espouse unpopular political positions cannot be separated from the individual rights that allow them to shame and shun people who hold unpopular political positions.

      You know, people like suffragettes, and Frederick Douglass!

      Well, uh, yeah? Like, people have a right to be wrong, and that means they have a right to wrongly shun and shame people who are right.

      The wrongest people have the right to shun and shame the rightest people.

      The problem I see with the bullet I just bit, though, is the shift from people having rights they exercise as individuals to a culture having rights. I don’t think a culture can really have rights, and the things that a culture can have–norms, values, customs, etc.–are quite a bit more slippery.

      Should a culture have a norm against shunning and shaming people who hold unpopular popular opinions? Maybe kinda? But in practice if 95% of the people out there find your opinion abhorrent, you’re probably gonna have a bad time when you advocate it.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      “Perhaps something, oh, I don’t know, codified into some sort of a legal set of protections that apply to everyone equally instead of weaponized to use against people whom I don’t personally like?””

      And what would that look like? How would you codify into law a protection against shaming and shunning? And how would that not run afoul of the 1st Amendment?Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    1. I think a lot of people are shocked that many liberals decided not to put up with BS anymore.The Andrew Lawrence dialogue is spot on in many ways in my opinion. There is also Satre’s famous quote on how the anti-Semite delights in bad faith.

    2. There is a ton of bad faith on the right wing side including the use of obvious grifters like Bari Weiss, Michael Tracey, Glenn Greenwald, Walker Bragmann, and other shlubstackers who mainly seem to exist for the purpose of hating on Democrats and for trolls to state “even the leftist Michael Tracey….” usually when Tracey is being a twerp to minorities.

    3. There is this very American ideal that anything can be debated in the dulcet tones of a tea party and that the person who shouts back loses. I dispute this idea. I think it largely comes from people who have the luxury of the safety of the op-ed conference room and/or no direct contact with deliberate trolling from Federalist society dweebs. The main purpose of many Federalist Society chapters seems to be directly to troll by inviting people to speak after said person became that person on twitter. Hasting’s chapter made the decision to invite Shapiro after he very strongly implied black women were categorically unfit to serve on the Supreme Court. Why should this not be viewed as a deliberately provocative and trolling act? Why should it be taken in good faith? What if they invited Amy Wax to speak about the ideal composition of a law school student body?

    4. These debates often devolve into Murc’s law. Everyone expects the right-wingers to act like a bunch of miscreant, smug middle schoolers so center-left types need to be extra special good. Why not concentrate on getting Ben Shapiro to be less of a smug jerk? Do people really find that impossible?

    It would be nice if more heated topics could be debated civilly but this does not it often ends up short handed to, “Hey, center-left types, take it on the chin.” This can be good faith at times but is often an endorsement of right-wing trolls in effect if not bad faith intent.

    Going back to the Andrew Lawrence tweet, we saw a Republican Senator state yesterday that he thinks Loving v. Virginia was wrongfully decided and then try to walk it back unconvincingly. We see anti-trans legislation and extreme anti abortion legislation thst puts the health of women in danger. However, the cult of savvy still demands that we see this as grift for the low info voters instead of sincere prejudice. What does it take to end the cult of savvy and get them to realize sometimes hard pushback is the best course of action and Republicans mean what they say?Report

    • Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      What does it take to end the cult of savvy and get them to realize sometimes hard pushback is the best course of action and Republicans mean what they say?

      Honestly – open civil war with the people pushing back being shot dead in the streets. Even then there will be a minority that crows that we need to just understand the shooters. Admitting Republicans mean what they say (even when its backed up by decades of action) means admitting that people who look and act and drink like them, whom they went to school with, no longer deserve to be in charge. a nd if THEY don’t deserve to be in charge the cultists don’t either.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      I think a lot of people are shocked that many liberals decided not to put up with BS anymore.

      LOL. The left has long since joined the right in going human-centipede on BS producers. They just prefer different flavors.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      The left has been pushing back against things they don’t like with little real resistance for decades. The fact that the right is getting better at pushing their buttons and getting their ideas across is not a bad thing.Report

      • Little real resistance? Wow. Just wow.

        Rush Limbaugh made a career for decades of real resistance. Newt Gingrich led real resistance in the House. Donald Trump was a giant middle finger of real resistance. Kent State sure looked like real resistance. The War on Drugs still looks like real resistance. Texas, Missouri and now Oklahoma outlawing abortions by criminalizing support for the people helping women (and putting bounties on people crossing state lines) looks like real resistance. Withholding hearings on a Democrat’s supreme court nominee looks like real resistance . . .Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

          Yeah, little resistance. FNC is one cable station. The Daily Wire is a website.Report

          • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

            Donald Trump was just one President. (GWB was another but I guess he doesn’t count any more because reasons.)

            Mitch McConnell just leads a minority of 50 Senators.

            John Roberts, Sam Alito, Amy Coney Barret, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Clarence Thomas are just six Supreme Court Justices.Report

          • FNC is one long running cable channel. OAN is a newer but still extant cable channel. newsmax is still a newer but extant cable channel. Sinclair broadcasting is an old but quite expanded media conglomerate. The Wall Street Journal is as venerable as the NYT. Hell the NY Post is nearly that old and venerable.Report

            • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

              And all have less cultural cache than the NYT or the WaPo. Or ABC News. Or NBC News. Or CBS News.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                As they should. But they’re after bigger game.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                So the real problem isn’t that nobody on the Right has been pushing back against things they don’t like, it’s that nobody on the Right is cool.

                “People should act like you’re extremely hip despite your ugly causes and loser demeanor,” doesn’t seem to be a particularly useful cultural value to me.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                They’re outsiders. The left has insider status in media. The right has very few figures that could be classified as insiders in media. Outsiders lack influence, but they can wield plenty of money. Outsiders can make bank.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Who do they lack influence with?

                Because the answer definitely does not appear to be, “People who wield power in elected office.”Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                I wrote an article on this very site. You can read it. “Money, Power, and Influence.”Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                How is cultural cachet measured? I’m pretty darn sure FNC or WSJ has a metric crapton more “cachet” in many parts of the country. In fact isnt’ FNC more popular then all those networks. At least the news channels.

                Cultural cachet seems like a weird phrase here. What does it even mean? Many different opinions and tastes out there. There is no official Cachet Measurement. It’s what ever you say it is.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Conservatives want to be both victor and victim.

                They crow about Tucker Carlson having more viewers than Rachel Maddow, but still sulk that liberals think Maddow is more cool.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I hate Tucker, as my last article made clear.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Insider status. Maddow and Brian Williams are media insiders in a way that Ben Shapiro and Greg Gutfeld are not.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                This reads like Farve is football insider but Brady isn’t. Huh wha??? Makes no sense.

                This is a topic that has been hashed over. A guy like Carlson is the most popular act on the most popular network. It’s absurd to suggest he isn’t as insider as i gets. Shapiro….yes insider as it gets. Gutfield has a show on the most popular network. They are all insiders. You dot’t get a big time show on a big network w/o being an insider one way or the other.

                Conservatives seem to just assign everybody on their side to be lesser even when they are absurdly rich, have mega media access and are being broadcast on the most popular network in the country.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                As an example. Bill O’Reilly is an outsider. Jeffrey Toobin is an insider. Both did something horrible. Who still has a job at a respectable media operation? (A media operation that employs Jesse Kelly is not respectable.)Report

              • North in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Eh, they have different goals. Fox is out to make money, hand over fist, selling Gold, NRO cruises and sleep number beds to elderly people. The NYT, WaPo and the other major media outlets are institutions with pretentions of being serious journalistic entities and operate kind of like non-profits that are mostly staffed by people who’s main goal is to be praised by the in group journalist/writer clique on Social Media and maybe (burning a pinch of incense to the Ghost of Walter Cronkite) get a job writing that’d pay them enough to pay for their tony NYC loft instead of having their parents cover it.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to North says:

                All media is designed to make money. The other channels aren’t doing it for free.Report

              • North in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Sure, but they don’t do it anywhere near as well as Fox does because they have other priorities that come first.Report

              • pillsy in reply to North says:

                Yeah, I’m sure Jeff Bezos is happy when the WaPo makes a buck, but he didn’t buy it because he needed it to make bucks.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                It was all prestige.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to North says:

                Fox doesn’t make the money network news makes. And CNN hosts make millions a year, so even that comparison is bad.Report

              • North in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Disagree. Fox, as an organization, pursues its strategy for money first and power second- they sure as heck don’t pursue prestige nor are they particularly concerned about the good opinion of their journalistic peers. Mainstream media institutions would love to make money, but their lodestar is prestige and the regard of their peers with money and influence/power a distant second place. Of course you have to make a certain amount of money or else you end up a wealthy persons hobby horse- but that’s kind of the point. If you don’t have prestige no wealthy person would even want to own you.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to North says:

                No, it doesn’t.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        We need to agree on what constitutes “pushing back against things the left/right don’t like” for this train of thought to lead anywhere, and probably to agree on what “resistance” means as well.Report

  8. Marchmaine says:

    The strange thing about the Overton Window discourse is that it is a snapshot of Establishment Wrongness over time for the people who like to cite Overton Windows as meaningful.

    I chalk this up to the ownership of the window. When *your* team owns the window, it’s the frame of reasonable discourse. When the *other* team owns the window it’s the frame of institutionalize wrongness. The dumbest and most obvious thing I’ll say this week is that the Left owns the Overton window and all that it means.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Marchmaine says:

      The Window is a convenient shorthand. I don’t think anyone “owns” it. People can only project what they hope is within it. We can say with confidence that some ideas are acceptable based on sheer numbers, and we can speculate on which ideas are emerging as acceptable, but only with partial information and our own biases. Even if we’d be correct, we have no way of recognizing a dead end or a panic until after it passes.

      The Overton Window makes relativism seem pragmatic. It’s like saying north and south exist because of maps. It ignores the existence of magnetic north and true north. I don’t see a lot of societies getting to academic freedom without believing in some version of the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

      There are a dozen overton windows among the dozen or so sub-cultures that happen to interact with each other regularly. I suppose that some people might say that the *REAL* overton window is the area where all of these windows overlap but “real”, as a concept, has been devalued in recent decades.

      Multiculturalism is the acceptance of other overton windows until they stop being useful against the overton windows of your enemies.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

        There’s a lot of truth in that first paragraph.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

          This is what I was thinking of when I wrote it:

          Report

          • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

            I don’t think we’re in epistemic divorce. I mean, the occasional oddball subgroup might be off in its own box, but the majority of us have a lot of commonality. It’d be a lot easier if the personal weren’t political, if we weren’t what we shave with. That makes it harder to articulate things we can all agree with. But mostly everyone does agree on a lot of things, or doesn’t care enough about the disagreements to make a big deal out of it. And that’s something I hadn’t thought about before, at least not explicitly – apathy as a weapon against the Overton Window.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

              Here? No, we’ve got multiple overlapping.

              Out in the world?

              I have friends who tell me that I am the most conservative person they consider a friend while I have other friends who consider me to be somewhere off in degenerate libertine atheist territory (my quiet home life is nowhere *NEAR* degenerate or libertine unless Cheez-it consumption would qualify).

              I regularly share meals with people who are not in each others’ overton window.

              It’s not just about the real estate included in the window. It’s exceptionally important to communicate that the window has tight borders.

              But not, you know, *TOO* tight. Don’t wanna be closed-minded.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird says:

                Talk to people who don’t follow politics closely Jay, if they’re not in the illusory open society scenario you listed then they’re at most in strongly overlapping windows.

                Fish it. Read Compact, the newest “fusion” (*snort*) online magazine and look up their critique of the demise of Patriarchy. Change, maybe, 10-15 words and it’s be indistinguishable from a far left rad-fem article. Change, around, 15-20 words and it’d pass as red blooded liberal.

                The noise is so loud because the stakes and difference are so low.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North says:

                Oh, jeez. Most of my circle follows politics closely!Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird says:

                Only a third of mine does, max. Now Minnesota also tilts my own sample since the state culture is to say nothing critical to anyone’s face but still.

                You can also find it in polling. The electorate wants abortion uncommon but also almost entirely legal (in case they need to partake of it). They want immigration low but labor and prices cheap. They want foreign bad guys vanquished but they don’t want bloody or expensive wars. They want excellent copious government benefits and services but they want taxes as low as possible. They want the gummint to do what they’d vaguely like but they don’t want to vote or pay attention (let alone get involved!)

                Plot those windows out. The incoherence is overlap. The low engagement majority of this country lives in the overlapping window scenario.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                I believe they call this the narcissism of small differences.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                Damn good name.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                I think it was coined by Freud. The Germans have good names for everything.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

                der Vonkleinenunterschiedearzissmus, so good names badly expressed.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

                I disagree on the stakes being so small. This is what I mean about the cult of savvy being frustrated. Based on the legislation being proposed or passed in Florida, Texas, Idaho, Missourri, and maybe some other states, I don’t think we can call the stakes small at all and I don’t think we can hope the courts will save us. We have had tons of Trump appointed judges opently defying President and trying to deny traditional powers of the Executive in order to get the Federalist Freak Flag flying high. This is not a low stakes situation.Report

              • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                I’m a gay man myself and I am not afraid to call even those stakes small if you look at them from any historic perspective. They’re awful, horrible policies, sure, but they’re small beer in historic terms. So are most of the issues du jour. Especially once you actually look at them in terms of “chatter on the internet” vs “movement in meatspace” terms.

                Today we argue language, pronouns, sports, niceties and economic measurements (Mostly on the internet). Thirty years ago, one in fifteen gay men had fishin died of aids. One hundred years ago women just barely had gotten the right to vote and almost ever African American in this country lived in de facto second-hand citizen to indentured servant status. Two hundred years ago almost every African American in this country lived in de jure slavery status. Inveigle about the cult of savvy if you like but our differences today are tiny when viewed with any form of historical perspective.Report

              • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                They’re not small now but they were so much worse before. So large as to make even the desperate stratagems and grasping of a withering geriatric GOP seem paltry in comparison.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

                I think I am going to at least partially disagree here. Possibly largely. I think something really cracked during the second Obama administration and during Trump’s term.

                There was a time when it looked like conservatives would largely just whine about SSM marriage rates and perhaps abortion would continue on the same path of Casey restrictions but something cracked. Conservatives feel under siege and emboldened. The recent spat of legislation on abortion, transgender issues, and partisan gerrymandering is not the stuff we used to feel. It feels more angry and intense. Banning abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy, offering bounties, making it a felony to leave a state to give a kid therapy for their transgender issues/status, when have Republicans done stuff like this before? We are roughly the same age?

                It feels to me like the right-wing knows it is in a minority and is more or less attempting to enshrine apartheid rule as much as it can. The stakes just do not feel small to me even if the fights sometimes are comical.Report

              • pillsy in reply to North says:

                Today we argue language, pronouns, sports, niceties and economic measurements (Mostly on the internet).

                Those are what we argue, but we don’t argue them because they’re the only thing, or even most important thing, going on, we argue them because they make for self-licking ice cream cones of content generation.Report

              • North in reply to pillsy says:

                Sure and we have free mental and social bandwidth to indulge in those self licking ice cream cones. That certainly implies to me that the scope of our problems is smaller.

                I say with no exaggeration that if some wizard appeared and offered to transport my loved ones and I to any era in the past with no change in our relative wealth position in society my response would be an instantaneous refusal at the mildest to defensive violence, if necessary, to prevent it. How about you?Report

              • pillsy in reply to North says:

                My position not that I’d like to go back to the past, and more that I am not remotely as sanguine as you are that we won’t be dragged back to it.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Granted, I’m only starting to creep up on 50 years on this good Earth, but in those ~50 years, I haven’t seen too much back slide for too long, mostly because every time things back slide, things never turn out the way those who want it, expect. So things swing forward again relatively quickly.

                The glaring exception has been the WOD, which has taken far too long to swing forward again.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                You are also a white guy, so your baseline on slide, might be different than say a woman, a LBGT person, a minority, etc.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                Yeah, that’s fair. It’s also why I try to listen to all those folks. If Veronica tells me sh*t scares her, I take her seriously.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                We’re seeing a real backslide on voting rights, and some of the stuff going on with states trying to persecute trans youth and their parents is horrifying.

                I’ve tried writing an actual post about the Texas CPS thing but actual stuff keeps happening that sends me back to square one.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                I also see the backslide, I just wonder how well it will stick, because these things rarely go to good places, and people will be unwilling to tolerate it for long.

                Not a reason to not strongly oppose such BS, but in the face of such opposition, and the face of the inevitable heavy handedness that plays well in the media, I expect we’ll see a lot of this stuff quietly vanish once pressure has a chance to build.Report

              • North in reply to pillsy says:

                I’m not saying that we have no problems now days; just that they’re smaller than they used to be. Black people used to just get driven away from the polls with violence or blocked with fees or tests. Yes, the GOP desperately and despicably trying to make it incrimentally more difficult for Black folks to vote is awful but it’s still small compared to the hurdles they used to face.

                As for the Trans stuff, it remains to be seen how that whole mess turns out. It could be this is the kind of overreach that really hurts the GOP in increasingly plum colored Texas and if Texas goes the way of Georgia then the GOP is in deep and, of course, trans rights will improve.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

                What we’ve seen is that even losing elections hasn’t modified the GOPs behavior.

                After the famous autopsy of the 2012 Presidential loss indicated the party needed to broaden and moderate, the GOP did the exact opposite.

                And now they have achieved victory over the Supreme Court and their goal of overturning Roe.

                And if the election were to be held today, there is a good chance the GOP will get a trifecta.

                And Wisconsin shows us that winning the most votes is not what the GOP is interested in. Seizing power is the only thing that matters.

                The talk about “overreach” is just another variation of the “demographics” talk, where there will be One Weird Trick to preserve democracy.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to North says:

                As for the Trans stuff, it remains to be seen how that whole mess turns out. It could be this is the kind of overreach that really hurts the GOP in increasingly plum colored Texas and if Texas goes the way of Georgia then the GOP is in deep and, of course, trans rights will improve.

                It is worth reminding people that the only outcome of violent rhetoric isn’t _just_ laws. And that violence against LGBTQ people is not only still happening, but could easily get worse.

                In addition to, uh, the cops not always, uh, following the law. Committing violence even when said violence is ‘illegal’. Which is something I feel we should all already know?

                Saying ‘Oh, they’ll lose at the ballot box and that solves the problem’ is optimistic _even if right_…and there’s enough voter suppression the first thing might not happen even if it should.Report

              • pillsy in reply to DavidTC says:

                Yeah I mean right after Abbot’s order, they were already investigating a mother for “abusing” her trans kid, and because she worked for the TX DPFS they had placed her on leave and in addition to the risk of criminal penalties and losing her kid, she was going to lose her job.

                Like exactly the kind of consequences that people warn about with cancel culture, but also ones where your kid is thrown in foster care and you get thrown in prison.

                And it’s not like the mob aspect is absent in these cases either. This is not the first time that Abbot has directed DPFS to investigate a parent for child abuse for having a trans kid on, and one previous time it was in response to one of the online justice mobs that are more or less the entire threat people point to in order to fears of Leftward illiberalism.

                People just generally don’t care when the Right does this shit. And a lot of the reason is when they do it the targets are little people, not NYT columnists or Ivy League professors or billionaire fantasy authors..

                And TBF, sometimes Leftward mobs do come down on little people, and it gets way less attention then, too. It’ll be a five minute story even when the targets are entirely innocent.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Marchmaine says:

      Precisely. When you control the heckler, you will agree with whatever it does.Report

  9. Chip Daniels says:

    Its been pointed out periodically about how institutions like the NYT are cosmopolitan and yet parochial, where they are well versed in a multitude of cultures, but only the tiny sliver of them.
    Like how it will cover in depth an Algerian lesbian poet, while ignoring country music or something like that.

    I notice a similar pattern with the online political commentariat.
    Ilya Shapiro and the Yale law professors get endless coverage and debate, even though they were subjected to nothing but scolding and a temporary setback.

    Meanwhile, on the NYT thread I posted numerous examples of school boards being subjected to violent abuse, health officials threatened with death and a climate of fear at libraries such that books were preemptively banned simply for having LGBTQ or nonwhite racial themes.

    This is what causes a lot of liberals like me to roll my eyes at the conservative whinging about cancel culture, when a moment of inconvenience is equated with death threats.

    To Burt’s point, free speech IS often messy and includes heckling and protest.

    What is never easy to pinpoint is where shouts of protest slide into an actual veto, or when angry words morph into credible threats of violence.Report

  10. Greg In Ak says:

    A real bit of weirdness in the comments so far about the potential MRA essay. BTW glad is didn’t get published before anything else. This is just one shop on the internet. The MRA’s should have places where they can say their weak ass crap. But not every place has to be open to MRA’s. That marketplace thing in action. No one place can be open to everything. If OT is MRA friendly it will push away others so choices are always being made. Make those decisions openly and explicitly so everybody knows the deal. Leave or stay with or w/o MRA’s. That is the epitome of Free Speeching.

    I think part of the problem is some people think there is value in hearing horrible opinions. I don’t nor do many people. Using the MRA example i would note that i have read many pieces by MRA’s and they are remarkable for being so consistently bad. It’s not easy to be wrong that consistently but huzzah for their excelling. My mind is not expanded by another crappy MRA essay and the predictable push back.

    If i want MRA’s i can very easily find them. But i also want a place that has some standards with which i agree which certain levels of swill are not included. The OT excluding an MRA has not damaged Free Speech in any way since it’s a big internet out there.

    The Overton Window is a fancy poli sci term for normal human social interactions as there are always things that are not polite to say or not wise to start conversations about in some circumstances.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      I think part of the problem is some people think there is value in hearing horrible opinions.

      My issue is that your definition of “horrible” is off. You think that there are non-horrible things that are horrible and, at the same time, there are horrible things that you think are good.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to Jaybird says:

        It’s always how something is defined, isn’t it? What is fine today is horrible tomorrow. What is horrible today is fine tomorrow.Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

        My lack of God. Do you think this is news or even pointing out something that isn’t obvious. Of course we have different definitions of horrible. That’s on the first page of the free speech users manual we got in kindergarten. If you didn’t get yours that may be the problem.

        I get to choose what i think is crap and what is good. I can even choose to patronize publications that have an editorial stance i like. Part of what i like is not showing me stupid crap. Even if stupid crap is a subjective term. I also choose to read books that i think i will learn something from and avoid those i think look really bad. Shocking i know.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          Oh, this comment is one that I agree with.

          I still disagree with the previous one, though.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          I think it is about grievance on no longer being the king of the roost and being given looks of contempt that no one is amused you can quote an issue of National Lampoon from 1977 verbatim and was told Animal House is not that funny. Only people do not want to admit that they agree with the MRA guy so they defend it via free speeching as you call it.

          Cowardice and resentment basically.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            I am just old enough to recall reading essays and references to the brave bold free speech advocates of the late 60s like Vonnegut and Mailer and Hefner.

            How bold they were, so bravely defending the free and frank explorations of uninhibited sexuality. They posited a world no longer viewed through they eyes of Midwestern Christian prudery.

            It was only years later when other voices, female voices, were allowed to rise above the din and point out how the freedom was mostly one sided- men’s right to subject the the world to the aesthetic judgement of the male gaze.

            This is a lot of what’s going on now, that the primary lens by which we view the world is no longer the exclusive province of white straight males and, just as in the 60s there is an explosive reaction to that shift.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              This is a lot of what’s going on now, that the primary lens by which we view the world is no longer the exclusive province of white straight males and, just as in the 60s there is an explosive reaction to that shift.

              Agree 100%Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                Whoa, wait a second, you and Chip agree that this is really about straight white males?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                When they saw that making Caddyshack references was no longer socially acceptable at the yacht club, they realized that the best way to crab bucket to the top was to be among the ones who screamed loudest about the scourge of “Whiteness”.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                The time has come to trade in our golf clubs and thoroughbreds for announcements of our pronouns and ‘in this house, we believe’ signs.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                This, but unironically.

                Like it seems unambiguously better to make the markers of social status be an announcement of one’s pronouns, which literally costs nothing, and a $12 lawn sign, instead of expensive sports equipment and actual animals.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                I bought my “in this house, we believe” sign!

                I’ll give up membership in Bailey’s Beach Club after the season ends. Promise.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                If economy is the goal I have no choice but to agree.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                It’s not just economy. It’s exclusivity.

                Status markers that are easy to obtain pose much less of a threat to equality and class mobility than ones that are really costly.

                And these can be had for the cost of a combo box at Taco Bell.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                It’s brilliant, now that I think about it.

                Remember that little chart?

                How can you offer something for free that confers high status and have it keep conferring high status despite its ability to be adopted by absolutely anybody?

                Well, you just have to make it exceptionally costly elsewhere.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Don’t threaten me with a good time.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                That’s one of those charts that I always think “I need to write 4000 words about that” and then I have to go to work or go to bed or go to run errands.

                But, man. It explains a *LOT*.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                I still think you overrate that chart. Some of the entries are caricatures.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Apparently I’m not making sincere comments, but merely mouthing socially acceptable sentiments.

                Which means that things like “screaming about the scourge of Whiteness” is the ticket to social status.

                Which is another way of saying that the primary lens by which we view the world is no longer the exclusive province of straight white males.

                And apparently some people find this disconcerting.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Apparently I’m not making sincere comments, but merely mouthing socially acceptable sentiments.

                And excluding formerly socially acceptable ones.

                It’s not status if just anybody can have it. Membership is tough that way.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Which is another way of saying that the gatekeepers of membership in the upper social class are no longer just straight white males.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Yeah. You can absolutely tell by what they say publicly.

                (photo of upper social class not available)Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

                Except there is no official membership or status. Whatever those things are has far far more to do with their immediate circumstances, work, family, jerk or not, then any hot button cultural issue. It’s politics nerds mostly who think a random political opinion changes someones anything in the world.

                This isnt’ a high school with cliques. Have whatever opinions you want. Almost nobody cares or will ever notice. How you live your life and treat people will be your “status”. Even if the unthinkable happens and sentiments change over time. I know this would be big if true.Report

  11. Chip Daniels says:

    One thing I’ve always noticed in the free speech maximalist position (e.g.”let’s hear from the Awful Position”) is that the Awful Position is never one that maximalist finds threatening.

    Not that they agree with it, but that the Awful Position is usually so fringe and marginalized it it harmless.

    So we can be open to things like human cannibalism or something and posture as brave free thinkers.

    But people are generally not as open to something that is both Awful and possibly on the verge of victory and therefore threatening.Report

  12. Trumwill says:

    Hypothetically, let’s say Ordinary Times got a pitch for a piece that made the following arguments?

    1) Employers of good conscience should, upon finding out that an employee voted for Trump, fire them.

    2) Social clubs – whether civic or hobby like knitting – should, upon finding out a member voted for Trump, expel them.

    3) People with family members that voted for Trump should stop visiting them or inviting them to events in your house.

    The crux of the argument that the GOP has become – perhaps always was – a deeply anti-social movement who should not be able to expect acceptance into the social order they actively seek to undermine every day.

    Should Ordinary Times:

    a) Run with the piece, as a viewpoint as worthy of consideration as any other we might run.

    b) Not move forward the piece, as it runs contrary to the embedded values of the site.

    BTW this is not actually hypothetical. I had to think about this one for a good long while. (I didn’t go forward, though for reasons adjacent to its viewpoint.)Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Trumwill says:

      Run it and leave a note at the bottom saying “the author asked that the comments be closed for this piece”.Report

    • North in reply to Trumwill says:

      I’d want it run just so I, as a liberal, could go into the comments and emphatically denounce it as utterly deranged crazy.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Trumwill says:

      Wouldn’t read it unless i really wanted to slam it in the comments. Not sure it’s contrary to OT values but it’s far enough from anything i care about or respect to give it much attention.

      It’s 2022, we all have like 9 fire hoses of data and various other crap going full bore at us. I dont’ need to read any frickin view. I want good or interesting views. I want a place that curates that well. Keeping the weakest crap away is good curating. Crucially i can find that exact view point in many other places so if didn’t see it here, i would be just fine.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Trumwill says:

      I don’t envy you having to make that editorial decision, Will. Not a bit.Report

    • InMD in reply to Trumwill says:

      I think a fair consideration for a site like OT is whether or not an issue requires a post or is better hashed out in the comments. The main reason I submit so infrequently is that the comments and debate portion are perfectly sufficient for most points I want to make. I really only submit when it’s either about something personal I want to share or I want to give space for an angle I don’t think will be well represented down here in the fray without some extra space.

      To take Tod’s essay about the MRM as an example, it seems to me like there was ample opportunity for rebuttal and quite open debate in the comments, in what itself struck me as a pretty fair minded article, notwithstanding the fact that a side was taken. It’s far from clear to me that doing a counter-post would have added much when weighed against the foreseeable potential costs of hosting it.

      So for the proposed piece I would want it to really add something that wasn’t otherwise happening in the endless debates of Trump and Trumpism. Obviously I am not an editor and have no insight into the magic behind the scenes but that is my two cents.Report

    • c) Publish it and expel all the posters and commenters who voted for Trump.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Trumwill says:

      One of the more grim lessons learned during the first half of the 20th century is just how close to the line of intolerance, tolerant societies needed to come in order to survive. We criticize the CIA and FBI for their Cold War excesses but it’s good to recall how precarious the Western democracies were.

      Look at those societies where Islamic radicals use the norms of democracy to gain power- Places like Egypt for example, or places like Hungary or Poland where illiberals gained control of the mechanisms of democracy so as to destroy it.

      Would those shunning and shaming measures above have been necessary and prudent in those cases? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t have criticized Egyptians who valued their freedom enough to do so.

      Is America in a similar place?
      I don’t think we are quite there yet, but a lot depends on how much further into authoritarianism the GOP is willing to go.

      A lot of the cries for “civility” that we hear in America are premised on the idea that America is and always will be a liberal democracy and that calm reason will always win the day.

      This is historically ludicrous. There isn’t any special magic to assume we won’t lose our democracy. And we have ample evidence that there has always been a dark undercurrent of hostility to liberal democracy in America, yes including our family, friends and coworkers.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        The reason we became hyper negative partisan in the last couple decades is because every first midterm of every new President is likely to cause a switch in at minimum the House if not the Senate. Biden is likely to be the third President in a row for that. Bush defied the trend because of post 9/11 unity, but Clinton started the trend. The parties are largely at parity on a national level. That leads to less cooperation if you just have to wait a few years to get the whole loaf instead of half.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Trumwill says:

      My fiftieth of a dollar:

      All the folks saying it would have been good to run it so people could shred it in the comments are making a good argument for not running it.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Trumwill says:

      Yes. Because it will engender a response. Free and open exchange of ideas means bad ideas must be considered to see if they actually are bad. Just because we label an idea bad doesn’t mean it actually is in practice.Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        Your moving towards a good point. What i think you are missing is there are many ideas that a lot of us have already decided are crap. I’ve read MRA stuff. Very familiar with it. It sucks imho. I dont need to keep reading it with my limited time to remind myself it sucks.

        Similar point but the occasional piece suggesting blacks are genetically less intelligent or jews are globalists controlling the world or etc aren’t interesting because the arguments are old and bad. I don’t need a review of the Protocols of the Elder’s of Zion to know it’s still bs.

        Constantly exchanging bad ideas to see if they are still bad isn’t a road to good ideas. It’s the off ramp to trolling and the roundabout to not being able to tell good from bad.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          And prohibition used to be popular. As was eugenics. What is popular today is verboten tomorrow, what is verboten today is popular tomorrow.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to Russell Michaels says:

            So what? Things change. I would say that is life but inanimate objects change also. Matter and energy change.

            It’s our task in a democracy to take the country where we want it. We are guided by our values whether they are old or new that is what we have.Report

            • Russell Michaels in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              No, where we want is not usually what happens. Most people can’t even face what it is like currently must less change it for the better. Society gets better every day largely in spite of government.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Russell Michaels says:

            We should be clear about what changed. Prohibition and eugenics fell out of favor because the facts on the ground changed which caused the arguments for to become less persuasive in the face of reality.Report

            • Russell Michaels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              And those arguments originally were not very good. Eugenics was popular because racists needed a scientific explanation for their racism. “Inferior” genes were almost always black and Jews. This is not in dispute. And banning alcohol was never a good idea.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Eugenics is the poster child for an idea that never made any sense, and needed no new data to be refuted, but was popular anyway.
                Free and open debate only aided it, and never destroyed it.

                Those “facts on the ground” were the(entirely predictable) extermination of 12 million people, and a global conflagration that cost another 50 million.

                And even after all that, forced sterilization was being practiced in America in some places until 2010. And even now, in 2022, there are plenty of people ready and willing to do it all over again.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                No, debate did ruin it eventually. It is why the word “progressive” fell out of favor for nearly 50 years. Nearly all progressives were eugenicists, as in racists. Woodrow Wilson was like super crazy racist, even for the time he lived in.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Trumwill says:

      OK I thought about this more and I don’t see how it could possibly be construed as anything like running contrary to the embedded values of the site.

      I find it interesting because I know I usually cite exactly (1) as something that, if it happened on a wide scale, would make me reconsider my opposition to treating political affiliation as a protected class.

      Whether the GOP has become a deeply anti-social movement isn’t really relevant, though it is of course completely true, but one of the more annoying aspects of this site’s embedded values is a refusal to acknowledge this no matter how glaringly obvious it is.Report

  13. Burt Likko says:

    1. Kristen, Freddie is right to condemn the Wesleyan situation. The protestors went too far, against the wrong target. But it’s nothing particularly novel. Sophomores have long been sophomoric, critics have long failed to moderate their criticisms, and messengers have long been mistaken for the messages they bear. These phenomena are not good so please do not mistake my noting their senescence for approval. With that said, the Hastings protestors are different from the Wesleyans. At Hastings, protestors did not call to destroy the forum. They objected to Shapiro particularly, by disrupting the event that included him. They didn’t demand the Hastings Federalist Society lose its charter.

    2. InMD argues “This entire debate has become a motte and bailey where the existence of a small handful of rightly taboo topics is used to chase perfectly mainstream ideas out of venues well suited to discuss them.” That’s a confusing critique. There’s two different debates, and this statement smooshes them together. The first is a debate about how people react to things they find objectionable and outrageous. The other is a debate about what is properly described as “objectionable and outrageous.” I like Jaybird’s graphic illustrating what epistemic divorce is; I just don’t think we’re really there yet as a culture despite some hot-button issues.

    3. Also Kristen, I would have liked to have embedded Shapiro’s actual tweets. And his attempt at apology for them. They’ve been taken down, so far as I can tell, by Shapiro himself. Therefore I quoted what he said, in exact words, based on other reports of them.

    4. Pinky, by all means criticize the decision to not greenlight the MRA article. But Kristen, know that our reasons for doing so were not paternalistic. No one on the editorial board had any doubt that the many knives of the women prominent in our community would be very sharp indeed (or that they’d go unassisted by the vast majority of their brethren). My reasons for the ultimate decision were explained in the OP. I won’t speak for the other editors.

    5. Russell Michaels criticizes me for not using the phrase “heckler’s veto.” What happened at Hastings wasn’t a heckler’s veto. It was heckling.

    6. A third time to Kristen: this is an essay about culture, about private parties interacting with other private parties. It’s not particularly about the meaning and application of the law. Added to Brandon on this point: Nazis have as much legal right to have a public event as any other group and the ACLU was right to defend that right as against a municipal government in 1978. Culturally? I say Nazis are assholes. I say that loudly, and if need be I’ll say it impolitely and during a Nazi’s “assigned” time to speak and endure outrage from others if I’m wrong that telling Nazis to go [fish] themselves has somehow fallen outside of the Overton Window.

    7. Greg is correct, so correct that I wish to underline his point: if you want to engage with Ilya Shapiro, Donald Trump, a men’s rights activist, or even an Illinois Nazi, these people are all Google search away. Not greenlighting the MRA essay from Ordinary Times did not render the marketplace of ideas bereft of the questionable benefit of the MRA’s ideas. Ilya Shapiro has a public platform to speak his mind much more powerful than do I.Report

    • Timothy Lee in reply to Burt Likko says:

      When antifa cheers for neozanis, under the guise of “Freedom for Ukraine!” then yes, I do think it has somehow fallen outside the overton window.
      (I personally have them classified as around the KKK or BLM — and yes, all paramilitary groups should be condemned with the same trowel).

      It is perhaps worth noting that some of these Neozanis are actually practicing Jews, and have been for years.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Timothy Lee says:

        Hey, we have a tankie. Ukraine has a Jewish president I checked, which makes the idea that Ukraine’s government are filled with neo-Nazis weird to say the least while Putin cozy up to the Russian Orthodox Church, which has pretty near Taliban level beliefs.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Burt Likko says:

      5) My response will likely run tomorrow. I wrote it immediately. 2,000 words. Heckling vs. heckler’s veto is just semantics.Report

    • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I don’t see how it’s a confusing critique of a piece that, as I read it, suggests an equivalence between examples of speech that really pushes social boundaries and speech related to a mundane but nevertheless important and constitutionally required government procedure (Supreme court nominations).Report

      • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

        I’d say calling a federal judge soft on child pornography really pushes social boundaries.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

        It’d certainly be easier to feel sorry for Prof. Shapiro if you think he never said anything that pushed social boundaries, but the Hastings students thought he did (and I think that opinion is at minimum defensible, and may well be right).

        …Or did you mean it was the law students who spoke in ways that pushed social boundaries?Report

        • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

          It isn’t about my personal sympathy for anyone. It’s about my belief that a public university should be able to host a discussion about the SCOTUS nomination process. These institutions exist to be able to talk about these things. The students made that not possible, which makes them the party in the wrong.

          I honestly can’t tell if you really think a guy making a bad tweet, and not even a particularly remarkable one in the larger scheme of a rather scummy medium, justifies a massive disruption. Is that the case? If so do you have a limiting principle or is the rule that any student can come in and make any discussion he or she wants impossible anywhere, anytime?Report

          • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

            I think making a Tweet that shitty about the SCOTUS nomination process and following up with a nonpology makes me seriously question the value of Ilya Shapiro’s opinions on it.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

            No, I don’t have such a limiting principle. Such limiting principle is impossible. Worse, making a discretionary decision in a situation like that is inevitable and indispensible, becuase that’s what will always happen when people disagree about what’s beyond the pale.

            Pillsy got it basically right in this comment: one student protesting is being disruptive, and yeah, two probably are too, but fifty students disrupting are engaged in a protest. It’s a great question to ask at how many students that shift occurs. I don’t know. No one knows. A bright line rule here is not possible.

            That means at some point, someone, a gatekeeper of some sort, has to make a judgment call, and someone else is going to be grumpy about it. But there is by necessity a gatekeeper, and since rules aren’t much use even if they exist, the gatekeeper has to exercise discretion. That’s my central point of the OP article. Come to think of it, it’s the title.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

            It isn’t about my personal sympathy for anyone. It’s about my belief that a public university should be able to host a discussion about the SCOTUS nomination process. These institutions exist to be able to talk about these things. The students made that not possible, which makes them the party in the wrong.

            Why should a public university be able to _choose_ what viewpoints they wish to present about the SCOTUS nomination process? Using government property and student funds?

            It’s already bad enough that money is speech and the wealthy are allowed to buy as much speech as they want…why is our government _giving free megaphones_ to people that I don’t agree with? (And, it appears, the people funding that part of the government don’t agree with either.)Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Burt Likko says:

          What I don’t understand is why everyone is ignoring the time line. The Federalist Society invited Shapiro to Hastings after the tweets and first pushback. IMO, this was a deliberate and calculated decision. They knew it would rile and in my experience Federalist Society types love a good troll.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            Because it’s not relevant. No one is obligated to respond to a troll. In fact, we’d all be better off if people ignored trolls more often.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              No one is obligated to host trolls, and host trolls also undermines the spirit of debate that universities are supposed to foster.

              Is it a challenge that students being trolled should be taught to deal with?

              Yes. But it’s still bad, it’s just a bad that doesn’t justify every possible response and/or retaliation.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Someone like Milo was a troll. He was a professional sh*t-stirrer. You invite him solely to incite a reaction.

                Shapiro? The FS probably invited him (partly) to troll a certain demographic on campus, but Shapiro is not a known troll himself. He’s not going around trying to stir things up. Given what happened at Hastings and the undue attention it has received, I wouldn’t be surprised if he declined any public engagements on campuses for a while (although I could be wrong, people do some amazingly stupid crap to keep the spotlight on themselves for a little longer).Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              I dissent. I suppose it is fair to argue that they fell for an obvious troll but it seems to me that there were plenty of other speakers besides Mr. Shapiro who could have made the same points but without the vile tweetsReport

  14. Chris says:

    It’s trite to say, of course, but we all accept, even promote, the limits on freedom of speech that certain values create, while complaining about the limits on that freedom that others create. When we’re arguing about freedom of speech/expression, we’re almost never actually arguing about freedom of speech/expression, but about the values that are limiting it, and the extent to which (if any) those values should be able to limit do so. That’s true in society generally and in particular social spaces like this one.

    I think we’d get much further if we just talked about the values themselves, and how we think they should shape society and influence other things we value (like freedom of speech), because it’s hard to take anyone seriously when they talk about freedom of speech itself, since we can always easily find ways in which they would not hesitate to limit it. For example, when we’re talking about limiting the expression of MRM ideas here, we’re actually talking about other values (e.g., how important it is that non-male readers feel comfortable being here), and how much we think that should limit what people say here. Much of the early comment section here concerned which values we thought should be able to limit what people say here, and to what extent they should limit them. That debate to a large extent shaped the culture of the blog that exists today (which is not to say it hasn’t changed a great deal over the years), and the debates about it today will shape its culture in the years to come, I’m sure. But they’re debates about that stuff primarily, not freedom of speech, and we should just be straight about it.Report

    • Chris in reply to Chris says:

      That said, we should also, of course, talk about the ways we should enforce limits on speech/expression in different spaces. How and when we should use shame or other forms of social sanction (independent of government action) is an important topic, but in the context of particular values, not in the abstract. Should people lose their jobs for certain types of expression? The only correct answer is “It depends,” and too often people who disagree with the particular things “it depends” on retreat to the more abstract discussion to avoid an actual discussion of the values surrounding the “it depends,” which leaves us frustrated or confused, but no closer to figuring anything out.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Chris says:

      I believe in free speech absolutism as a moral principle.Report

  15. pillsy says:

    I’m pulling out this article by Freddie deBoer to respond to it separately from Kristen’s comment above. First, he starts with a good point that falls flat because he doesn’t follow it through to anything resembling a natural conclusion:

    But it would all be for naught. You have to understand this to understand our media class: the number one priority in their entire lives, above and beyond literally any other, is to earn insider status with other people in media. That’s it. That is their lodestar, their true north. They want other people in media to see them as cool and smart and fuckable, and most of all they want to have the right opinions, the opinions that the group doesn’t laugh at.

    This is also like, extremely obviously, the animating concern of media opinionators who take allegedly bold stands against cancel culture. 80% of this ongoing Twitter-mediated fight is about what opinions you can hold and still sit at the Cool Kids Table. Does this drive a lot of the conformity Mr deBoer is complaining about, as well?

    Almost surely!

    But, uh, maybe if we actually just discussed it in those terms, instead of trying to make it about “free speech”, we could get somewhere. No promises or anything, but it’s not like the current approach generates much but RTs, clicks, and irritation.

    The rest of the argument is not so great, either in my opinion, and involves a kerfuffle around the Wesleyan Argus, which evidently angered a lot of students by calling Black Lives Matter illegitimate, blaming it for police officers being shot, and generally advancing an equivalency between being black and being a cop. Mr deBoer doesn’t really do it justice with his description, making it sound a lot less shitty than it is.[1]

    Which is, I think, a recurring theme in these controversies, and is also kind of hilarious given the overall complaint of his piece, which is that people were refusing to call bad things bad!

    Anyway, the bad thing that the piece wants us to call bad is students arguing that “dozens or hundreds” of students wanted to defund the publication for publishing this shitty article. And sure, that’s bad. Students should not do that in response to a shitty article.

    But it’s not worrying, because it happens with some frequency at universities. University papers publish crap articles written by students who are there to learn stuff like how not to write or publish crap articles, and then other students get red, nude, and mad about it and try to get the paper closed, or steal all of its issues, or some other dumb shit that they’re there to learn not to do.

    It’s a chain of not-terribly-serious fuckups perpetrated by students who are there to learn, and anyone who tells you that you can learn without fucking up probably hasn’t learned a hell of a lot.

    [1] All of this happened six years ago, making me wonder why the heck he’s making condemnation of the event his shibboleth for being appropriately concerned with discourse norms or whatever.Report

    • Chris in reply to pillsy says:

      But, uh, maybe if we actually just discussed it in those terms, instead of trying to make it about “free speech”, we could get somewhere. No promises or anything, but it’s not like the current approach generates much but RTs, clicks, and irritation.

      Excactly.Report

    • pillsy in reply to pillsy says:

      Also from Mr deBoer’s piece:

      I could also point out that liberals and leftists who insist that free speech refers only to freedom from government interference are swallowing libertarian ideology hook, line, and sinker, simply rolling over to the idea that private forces like corporations can’t abridge rights, and all for momentary argumentative convenience.

      I suppose not having your argument collapse immediately into self-contradiction is a kind of momentary argumentative convenience.Report

    • Jesse in reply to pillsy says:

      I realize he used to write here and all, but let’s be honest here – most of Freddie’s career is being mad that other people on Twitter don’t like him, and writing a lot about that.

      That’s why I had found it kind of funny when he pushed some of his more anonydyne leftier positions recently in his Substack – public education is good and the US shouldn’t get involved in Ukraine at all – he was shocked that he got pushback from his Substack subscribers, blissfully unaware of the actual audience he has, as opposed to the one he wishes he had.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Jesse says:

        Not getting involved in Ukraine at all is beyond a leftie opinion. It is so far to the left currently that it aligns you with the pro-Putin right. Other than that, yes.

        Discloser: I know a guy from college who I believe knows Freddie personally and my college friend is a true blue leftistReport

        • Jesse in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          Yeah, he was at least not giving the “NATO made Putin did it,” but a typical pacfifist left-wing response w/ some MURICA BAD. Not great, but nothing close to Greenwald-tier BS, and I do actually believe, despite my issues w/ Fredidie, he was being honest, instead of doing it to own the libs. But, he basically had to put up another post pushing back at his comment section.Report

      • North in reply to Jesse says:

        I think Freddie has some pretty rock solid points where he observes that the social justice left has accomplished virtually nothing of substance with its current strategies beyond comfortably employing a small cadre of journalists and academics in remunerative jobs.Report

  16. John Puccio says:

    This was surprising and disappointing to read.

    Surprising because if you asked me what OT’s “brand” was I’d say a place where adults express and debate everything and anything under the sun. I only discovered OT recently – when one of my essays was published. That essay commemorated the 20th anniversary of 9/11 by calling out the cult that it spawned. Perhaps things are different now, but I assumed it was a place for free speech since what I wrote was found highly offensive in many quarters (but not here).

    Disappointing because – if I understand correctly – the contribution in question was denied before it was submitted for consideration. All editors have the right to reject any submission, for a variety of reasons – but it’s weird that *this* was the topic that had a red line drawn and rejected out of hand.

    Regardless, I think Burt’s first instinct to allow a rebuttal to be submitted was the correct one.Report

    • Timothy Lee in reply to John Puccio says:

      In 2009, people on here were actively and avidly covering Occupy Wall Street.
      There has been not a single article on this site about the protests in Canada that led the Prime Minister to declare martial law (and subsequently revoke it after folks started a bank run).

      I do not expect any substantive debate on the clot shot, or on Biden’s legitimacy (though, to be charitable, the latter may be considered “Civilization Preserving” and rather spiteful to Chinese Interests).

      This site used to have higher standards for freedom of debate.Report

  17. veronica d says:

    I guess I’ll weigh in.

    Sites should indeed have editorial standards, and those include editing based on content. Obviously. The debate is about where to draw the line. People get to have their opinion, but there will be a line. If bigoted opinions fall outside that line, then good.

    The other issue is quantity. If you post one bigoted piece, maybe it slides by. If you post many, well there is a feedback process and you risk becoming a “bigot site.” I’ve seen this play out on various forums. It’s an ugly process.

    ###

    Bluntly, if you enjoy debating issues of bigotry, if you find it a cool recreational activity, then there is something wrong with your mind. I don’t enjoy these debates. I find them awful. I engage only because someone has to and sometimes no one else seems to step up.

    A site that happily posts such content for an audience of “debate enthusiasts” runs the risk of attracting a pretty awful crowd. There are plenty of other cool topics to discuss and debate, for example, math and science.

    ###

    Heckling a speaker is a form of civil disobedience, which is quite a fine thing when those who protest are correct and a rather bad thing if they are incorrect. We admire MLK and Gandhi because they were fighting genuine oppression. Had they been fighting in favor of oppression, we would not admire them.

    It’s that simple. Trying to analyze the tactic divorced of content doesn’t work. It’s like asking, “Is fighting for a cause good or bad?”

    Well that depends on the cause. Obviously.

    ###

    We shouldn’t hesitate to take a stand in favor of civil rights, gay rights, trans rights, etcetera. Nor should be apologize for being zealous for such causes. By contrast, those who are against civil rights and LGBTQ rights are wrong and should change. Debates about the paradox of tolerance are boring and stupid.

    Both-sides-ism in these cases is mealy-mouthed cowardice and we should see it for what it is. MLK summed this up in Letters From a Birmingham Jail. Different time, same issue.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to veronica d says:

      Taking a stand is fine, but today’s political battles are tomorrow’s atrocities.Report

    • pillsy in reply to veronica d says:

      Trying to analyze the tactic divorced of content doesn’t work. It’s like asking, “Is fighting for a cause good or bad?”

      Well that depends on the cause. Obviously.

      So much this.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

        And who is determining if the cause is good. Who is the arbiter of good? Who watches the watchmen?Report

        • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

          We do. Who else is gonna do it?

          What even is the point of all of this open debate and the like if we don’t actually do anything useful with it?Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

            Who is “we”? The government? I am my own arbiter of the good, but I do not expect literally anyone else to agree with me all the time about everything. That’s why moral philosophy will always be more thorough than ethics. At least two people have to agree to form a code of ethics.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              Who decides what is libelous and what isn’t?

              Who decides what is a true threat versus just heated rhetoric?

              Who decides who gets invited to speak and who doesn’t, who decides who gets a book contract and who doesn’t, who gets a cable talk show and who doesn’t?

              The unspoken implication in these sorts of questions is that only the speaker can be his own “arbiter of the good” but that has no support in logic.

              Which is once again the entire point of this piece, that some forms of speech can never be given legal protection, things like libel or threats, and so require the appointment of an agreed upon arbiter.

              And yes, all arbiters are flawed, both in their selection and execution. But no one has ever devised anything better.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The courts do and Sarah Palin and Stormy Daniels both got to see how high a bar it is to clear just recently.

                True threat? In what context?

                People with power, money, and/or influence.

                Some speech can never have legal protection? That’s insane. Even the worst ideas are protected by freedom of speech. The government cannot punish someone for having them. Madness that way lies otherwise.

                Free speech absolutism is the best approach. America largely has that as a legal doctrine.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Libelous speech is never protected speech.

                “Oh, but that’s not REAL censorship!That’s just sparkling suppression!”Report

              • Even the worst ideas are protected by freedom of speech. The government cannot punish someone for having them.

                And yet government entities – all be they local – are in fact seeking to remove ideas from school curricula under the guise of increasing parental choice and control.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

                You’re talking about public officials trying to achieve oversight over public schools. I wonder if you’re a fan of school choice.Report

              • That was a rhetorical question right?

                No, I’m not. Public funds for public schools shouldn’t be diverted to private entities, be they corporations or church-based school. It has yet to achieve its stated goals in any place its been implemented.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              No, us as individuals.

              The government isn’t the arbiter of right and wrong. The closest it can come is being the arbiter of who follows the rules we direct it to enact on the basis of our sense of right and wrong, as expressed through the processes of our representative democracy.

              That is a pretty clumsy process, which is a solid reason for not having government regulate speech.[1]

              But we aren’t the government. We have the government because we believe that we can be freer and more prosperous with it than without it, but that freedom of expression, and closely related freedoms like free association, are our most important tools for actually creating a just society, and it is those tools we’re talking about wielding here.

              So no, there isn’t anybody else. But that doesn’t mean the alternative is nihilism.

              [1] Not quite enough, to my mind, to justify the extremely high priority liberal democracy places on freedom of expression, but it still matters.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                And yet this is where it leads. Right and wrong are not something government should ever attempt over ideas. Actions, certainly. Like murder and theft. Ideas? No.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                I literally do not understand what you’re arguing here.

                The fact that the government should not be making certain judgements doesn’t mean individuals shouldn’t be making those judgements.

                If it does, why even have any freedom?

                We don’t have any use for it!Report

        • Pinky in reply to Russell Michaels says:

          As I said above, I think the idea of an Overton Window allows you to think short-term as an absolutist while remaining a relativist.

          I’m someone rooted in principles. The issues discussed on this thread all seem to rely on those foundational principles from Athens and Jerusalem (via Rome and London). Those principles aren’t blueprints, but they constitute the bottom couple of rows of our modern Jenga tower. I think any arbitration has to be grounded in some basic principles about reality. Everyone doesn’t have to agree with them, but everyone has to agree to act within them.Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to Pinky says:

            As am I. I believe in free speech absolutism. I am open to discussing any idea with anybody.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

            I think any arbitration has to be grounded in some basic principles about reality. Everyone doesn’t have to agree with them, but everyone has to agree to act within them.

            This is a very profound indictment of modern America as a nation. A sizable chunk of our fellow citizens seem to have decided not only to abandon prior agreements on what those reality principles are, they also seem to have abandoned any pretext of acting with in them. We still do here at OT (mostly) but IRL its becoming increasingly hard to avoid this divorce.Report

            • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

              And people who disagree with you politically would agree with that statement, about people who think like you. You seem to think the other side is beyond the pale. I’m trying to tell you that’s where madness lies.Report

              • The madness lies in criminalizing individual medical choice by women, and then whining when called out for it. The madness lies in telling doctors to report parents as child abusers who are trying to follow the latest medical and psychological guidance to support their children. The madness lies in continuing to threaten democracy because you don’t like loosing. The madness lies in restricting who can vote when to keep from loosing more elections. One side of the politicla aisle is doing those things regularly, routinely and openly, because they have abandoned the pretext of agreeing to a shared realty. Much of it is – at least under the rules I grew up by – beyond the pale.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I’d answer that each of those brief descriptions bear no resemblance to the things you’re trying to describe – a neutral, inexperienced reader wouldn’t be able to identify them. More than that, all of those things as they are are more in line with our common tradition than socialism is.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                Bullshit. This is literally what Abbot did in Texas:

                The madness lies in telling doctors to report parents as child abusers who are trying to follow the latest medical and psychological guidance to support their children.

                Report

              • Chris in reply to pillsy says:

                Texas has also done the part about criminalizing a woman’s medical choice, not only in the abortion bounty hunters law, but in the trigger law (criminalizes abortion, and materially supporting abortion, upon the repeal of Roe v Wade), which politicians have begun to threaten physicians and abortion funds with in anticipation of the upcoming SCOTUS decision(s).Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                And that’s your opinion and not an accurate description of what happened at all. I am not a neutral observer but at least I don’t pretend to be one.Report

              • Chris in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Which part is incorrect: the AG, then the governor, directed DPS (state law enforcement) to investigate anyone doing any sort of hormone/conversion therapy for trans kids as child abuse. That’s not in dispute. And physicians have overwhelmingly come out and said that contradicts the latest medical and psychological guidance on how to support and treat those kids, so that’s not in dispute either. I don’t see much else in there to dispute, but perhaps you have something specific in mind?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                What does being a neutral observer have to do with accuracy here?Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Pinky says:

                Precisely.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

                I made this comment in the context of a sub-discussion about veering from historical understandings of reality. Whatever your viewpoint, it should be clear that the West’s traditional understanding of human rights and human nature haven’t included puberty blockers and abortion. By not mentioning the specific things within his broad accusations, Philip H painted an unfair picture.

                Any casual reader would think, “People are preventing parents from supporting their children? Madness!” They’d also think, “Parents are giving confused kids puberty blockers? Madness!” Even if Philip was trying to be fair in his descriptions, it didn’t work out that way.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                I’ll grant hormone blockers, but the abortion thing has a real [citation needed] thing going on.Report

              • Chris in reply to pillsy says:

                Yeah, the history of abortion in the west is complicated, to say the least.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Chris says:

                My hashtag hot take would be to not grant blockers either.

                I could def make the case.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chris says:

                The history of abortion in the West is sufficiently complicated that calling it “individual medical choice by women” paves over the controversy. If you passed that statement through a few Google Translates, I don’t think the final reader would be able to guess it was about abortion law. Criminalizing some aspect of abortion can hardly be seen as an abdication of historical Western thinking, even if you disagree with the criminalization.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                The history of abortion in the West is complicated, but the history of human rights in the West is also complicated, and if you exclude the idea that abortion is a personal medical decision and criminalizing it violates those rights because its too recent, you come perilously close to excluding a lot of other ideas that we now accept as foundational to any adequate conception of human rights.Report

              • Chris in reply to Pinky says:

                I think pretty much anyone in 2022 would know what he meant, and would know that it’s not an unusual or even minority (given the way the polls on abortion look) take these days. Is it consistent with the laws of the 1790s? No, but neither is, say, replacing arteries with artificial ones. You can say that it is an approach that shows someone favors legalized abortion, but no one’s disputing that, so I’m not sure what the point of saying it would be.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chris says:

                “I think pretty much anyone in 2022 would know what he meant”

                Only due to repetition of a formula, not by the meanings of the actual words.Report

              • Chris in reply to Pinky says:

                I don’t know how you think words get meaning, then.

                Regardless, those are all pretty consistent with the way the words are used, e.g., by medical professionals (for whom abortion is literal health care).Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                Any casual reader would think, “People are preventing parents from supporting their children? Madness!”

                Well Texas AG and governor must be mad then.

                They’d also think, “Parents are giving confused kids puberty blockers? Madness!”

                Indeed they might think that’s madness, though there are numerous easily available resources to tell them why that would be the case. And treating gender dysphoria is just one reason. But the Governor and AG in Texas aren’t operating from that view point.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

                And you use so many words to shunt a majority of Americans off of polite society. That’s where madness lies.Report

              • They aren’t acting polite though are they? Creating bounties to enforce a ban on abortion isn’t polite. Forcing required reporters to report parents who are using the latest medical and psychological understanding to support their children is polite. Removing books from libraries because of the sexual orientation of the author is not polite. calling that out is not maddness.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

                Bad faith.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to veronica d says:

      “Heckling a speaker is a form of civil disobedience, which is quite a fine thing when those who protest are correct and a rather bad thing if they are incorrect. ”

      how do we know who’s correct and who’s incorrect

      i mean sometimes it’s obvious

      when a mob gets together and sets a building on fire because a gay Jew is giving a speech inside, that’s incorrect, right?

      “It’s like asking, “Is fighting for a cause good or bad?” Well that depends on the cause. Obviously.”

      hardly surprising to learn that you are basically a Tumblr PuriteenReport

  18. Pinky says:

    I’m betting we beat 500 comments. I’m not counting this one, as I could be accused of padding.Report

  19. LeeEsq says:

    Not surprisingly I’m siding with my brother, Chip, and Veronica on this one. A Republican Senator from Indiana was recently caught saying that he thought that Loving vs. Virginia was wrongly decided. There are five white men campaigning to be the State AG candidate for the Republican party in Michigan. All five of them are on the record that Griswold v. Connecticut was wrong decided. These aren’t cynical people who are saying these things to achieve power. They really mean it. They want to take America to the time when conventional Protestant morality had the force of law. The rubes are running the asylum and the few remaining sincere conservatives work for the Bulwark now. We should take Republicans seriously when they say these things because they act to carry them out. I’m so old that I remember people saying that the Republican Supreme Court would never overturn Roe because it would take away a campaign issue that gets the base good and riled up. Yet, here we are. Roe is about to get overturned and Loving and Griswold are on the chopping block.

    There are some really strict ideological limits to what a democracy could handle. When you have enough of the population go in a very illiberal direction than liberal democracy is put on life support. We have tens of millions of Americans increasingly attracted to some real authoritarian sh@t from the Right. The Republican Party and its media appendixes has been feeding a steady diet of sugared lies and slanders to millions of Americans for decades and now all the poisoned fruit is blooming. This is serious.Report

    • pillsy in reply to LeeEsq says:

      All five of them are on the record that Griswold v. Connecticut was wrong decided. These aren’t cynical people who are saying these things to achieve power.

      Counterpoint: maybe they are cynical people saying those things to achieve power, but fuck them either way, because if they’re that cynical, who knows what shit they’ll pull to keep power once they’ve got itReport

    • Pinky in reply to LeeEsq says:

      There are three Republican AG candidates in Michigan, not five. I haven’t been able to find footage of the debate, but from what I understand one of them had to ask what the case was about, and another checked it on his phone. “They really mean it”?Report

        • Pinky in reply to LeeEsq says:

          Yup, that fits with what I said. I don’t understand how you can read that description and think they really mean it. I mean, the principle of states’ rights being important to them, sure, but Griswold itself, the ruling that clearly at least two of them didn’t remember?Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

            I cannot imagine that any attorney pretending to not know at least the minimal holding of Griswold is being honest. Like, even if you never go to court and write wills and trusts all day long, you took the bar exam, dude. That means you had to know what Griswold is. It’s one of those cases you just have to know, one of those cases you talk about and keep on going back to for days.

            Unless you skipped about four weeks of Constitutional Law and if you skipped four weeks of Constitutional Law and somehow passed the bar anyway, you frankly have no business running for Attorney General.

            Then again, these guys are all career prosecutors, so I’m willing to bet there are members of the Michigan defense bar who would say none of them will admit to knowing what the Brady case is, either.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

              If they were pretending not to know, that indicates even moreso that they really didn’t mean whatever they said about it. Unless they felt really strongly about it, pretended they didn’t, gave answers, then backpedaled in order to…say the quiet part mostly quietly but out loud for a minute at the end of a debate for some reason?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

                The first sentence is remarkably naive. The second sounds just about right.Report

              • pillsy in reply to CJColucci says:

                Also, you don’t have to go to small fry like AG candidates to find opposition to Griswold. You also have US Senators saying the same thing:

                On Monday, Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), during her questioning of Jackson, said she opposes Griswold, calling the decision “constitutionally unsound.”

                It’s a mainstream opinion in the GOP, not something that’s gonna blow up in a Republican Senator’s face like saying Loving was wrongly decided.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky says:

                Braun said Loving should be reversed because of state’s rights, and that’s the price you have to pay to avoid hypocrisy. It was a bold statement, but consistent.

                Then, when that hit the fan, he pretended he hadn’t known what Loving was. Transparent BS.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

        If any of them really didn’t know, they have no business being an AG of anything.Report

  20. Doctor Jay says:

    I like the piece. My primary response is going to be a quote from Ken White (Popehat):

    I believe more specificity — action items — is the answer. Pointing to specific instances of “cancellation” and debating why they are inside or outside of our norms is a productive action item. Saying “colleges shouldn’t disinvite speakers because of controversy” is a good specific action item; we can debate it. Saying “Ken, stop piling on 20-follower Twitter accounts when they say stupid things” is an action item; I can debate it. [Shan’t.] Saying “stop demanding that businesses fire people for what they say off the job” is an action item. I might not agree but we can discuss it. Saying “if a minor says something racist in a semi-private setting we shouldn’t put them on blast and make them infamous” is an action item. We can grapple with it. We can’t grapple with “the culture makes me feel uncomfortable speaking.” Saying that just returns us to our cultural and partisan priors.

    (Emphasis mine).

    I think it could be very valuable to have pieces on some very specific things like Ken mentions. That would be a very good use of this space, and focus the conversation so much better.

    The general topic is something of a kaleidoscope, it is constantly shifting and looks different to everyone, who has their own particular thing that they don’t like. It would be nice to try to take those on one by one, rather than all at once, which is a confused mess.Report

  21. pillsy says:

    As an aside that I am putting here because I’m trying to stay the absolute heck off Twitter, I’m more than willing to grant that cancellation is a real thing, despite some fuzziness around the edges[1], but “cancel culture” is not a thing.

    Like, parking tickets are very real, but nobody is like, “Well that means we’ve got parking ticket culture!”

    [1] And, of course, bad faith attempts to expand it to include things like “being subjected to economic sanctions for waging a war of aggression” or “being impeached for trying to overthrow the Constitutional order you took an oath to protect”.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

      Well, parking tickets are regressive and designed to pad the budgets of police departments, much like speeding tickets are.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

      I can sign on to this, as I’m not entirely certain what the culture is. So yes, Cancellation is a thing, and BSDI (let’s not kid ourselves, only the mechanisms used really differ). I think the left takes it on the chin because their mechanism is the mob, and the right is busy as hell leveraging law to get it done. One is seen as legitimate, and the other… not so much.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to pillsy says:

      The funny or bitterly ironic thing is that I think cancel culture is more of a thing that eats its own than anything else. YA Twitter is a great example of cancel culture eating its own especially with the self-inflicted wound of pulling a nomination from a LBQT YA author for saying read the book.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        Yeah I’ve actually said that a few times. The end state of this stuff is, as mentioned elsewhere, Associate Directors at KPMG having pronouns in their email signatures and “In this house we believe…” signs on their lawn, not the 17-dimensional fractal clusterfucks that are online “social justice” communities.Report

  22. Kazzy says:

    I’m really struggling with ALL of the dialogue around this.

    I mean, either we somehow make laws against shaming and shunning and, welp, goodbye freedom of speech. Or we create social norms against shaming and shunning… which is just changing the direction of the shaming and shunning.

    I haven’t read every comment here but in those I’ve read, I haven’t seen anyone propose a practical “solution” that works on any kind of scale.

    I’d be 100% okay with one of those universities saying, “Hey, we’ve invited this speaker here and we want to make sure they have the opportunity to speak so we’re going to enact and enforce a code of conduct for the audience.” Go for it.

    Heck, I’d expand that to saying, “Let any private setting create whatever rules they want around free speech.” So if Twitter wants to put in place some sort of anti-piling on policy, have at it. Or if they want to ban folks willy nilly, so be it. I mean, let Twitter do what Twitter wants.

    I just don’t see how the response isn’t, “Let folks say whatever they want to say. And then let more folks say what they want in response. And on and on. And if some person or group of people is so positioned that they can ‘say’ their piece through other means (e.g, choosing not to publish a piece on a website they have editorial control over), bully for them.”

    Like, can anyone who feels like we need to do something about shaming and shunning actually propose a practical something that can be done?Report

    • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

      FWIW I agree with your proposal for the universities. They exist to operate in a very specific space, and the faculty and deans should set the rules of conduct. I think the nature of those institutions merits a very strong presumption against hecklers kind of approach. Different rules make sense in different contexts, including total free for alls.

      I also agree we can’t just go out into the wider world trying to police or force association. We can however police our own personal conduct, think about our values, and be circumspect about our tactics, and encourage others to do the same.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

        Re: the universities, I’d be curious why it seems they opted not to put in place any rules of conduct. I haven’t dug into the details of any of the situations but I’m curious if it was a conscious choice (e.g., “We do not want rules and think what is happening is preferable to any sorts of limits”)? Were they caught with their pants down and didn’t know how to react? Was it ideological (e.g., They agreed with the students and thus allowed behavior from them they might not have allowed from different students opposing a different speaker)?

        If it is the first one, well, I’d disagree with it but at least it’s a position. Either of the other two would seem to be derelict in their duty.Report

        • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

          My guess is they probably do have them but for a combination of cultural and economic reasons are loathe to enforce them.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

            If so — and I’d probably make that the odds-on favorite for explanations — I’d put that among the reasons I’d call dereliction of duty.Report

        • Jesse in reply to Kazzy says:

          Pretty simple – the students are the customers.

          Ironically, a totally state-run education system would probably be better for “free speech” in some ways because the admin wouldn’t have to worry about the blowback from being known as the college who loves to bring in speakers who hate gay people.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jesse says:

            Believe me… I get that. I work in private education.

            If the university was a-okay with how that all went down, so be it. I’d like to see them own that choice (and maybe they did) so folks could decide if they want to go to a place that is either hostile to a particular set of ideas with clarity on what those ideas are and/or which promotes shouting one another down as a primary means of discourse.

            I’m glad universities can take either of those routes even if I’m not glad every time they actually do.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

      Like, can anyone who feels like we need to do something about shaming and shunning actually propose a practical something that can be done?

      I don’t know to what extent we need to do something, but I think there are a number of things that we could do.

      It’s just that none of them are content neutral, and for some reason a lot of people really want to have content neutral norms over what kind of speech is acceptable, and, as you note, that isn’t even a coherent position.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

        Acceptable? We’re always going to find it hard to agree on that.

        Allowable, though? I mean, don’t we want the widest possible net of what is allowable?Report

        • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

          Allowable, though?

          In terms of legal prohibition?

          Absolutely.

          In terms of freedom from social disapprobation and repetitional consequences?

          Absolutely not. I think pretty much no one actually wants that.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

            To be clear, you think no one wants speech to be free from social disapprobation and repetitional consequences? Because it seems pretty clear many folks are arguing for just that.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

              How many of them think that Richard Spencer and Nick Fuentes shouldn’t suffer reputational harm for their Nazi speech?

              By no means are Ilya Shapiro, or the guy who wrote that Argus article, or whoever Nazis like Spencer and Fuentes, but… uh, that’s kind of my point.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

                Apologies for my confusion… as I’m genuinely confused by your point here.

                Quoting the NYT piece, I’m seeing many (not all) supporting the below sentiment:
                “Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right as citizens of a free country: the right to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned.”

                I see that and folks supporting that sentiment and think they feel like NO ONE should be shamed for what they say.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t think they mean it.

                I believe that most of the time, when people say things like that, they have a bunch of qualifications and exceptions that they haven’t stated and when pressed on them, say stuff like, “Well obviously I don’t mean that.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Yeah. I think that, if pressed, they would of *COURSE* agree that (insert horrible example here) should be banned.

                I think that part of the issue is that stuff that was within the overton window very recently (like, let’s say 20 years) is now outside of it.

                And there’s this weird sensation that “Hey, I shouldn’t be judged harshly for saying something that was 100% middle-of-the-pack just the other day!”Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                20 years? Try like 5 seconds.

                Take the Shapiro thing. If we accept Oscar’s interpretation of his tweet above, which I think is probably right, what he was getting at was a really clumsy criticism of race-based affirmative action. You know, the thing that lost a referendum in bluest of blue California not even 2 years ago. If we take this whole Overton Window thing seriously I don’t understand how the winning side in a recent ballot question can credibly claimed to be outside of it. And yet here we are talking about adherents to that German political party that took power in the 30s as if it is somehow an insightful comparison.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                If we accept Oscar’s interpretation of his tweet above, which I think is probably right, what he was getting at was a really clumsy criticism of race-based affirmative action.
                […]
                If we take this whole Overton Window thing seriously I don’t understand how the winning side in a recent ballot question can credibly claimed to be outside of it.

                1. Because not every argument in favor of a popular policy will be similarly popular, or even acceptable
                2. Like we have to bend over backwards to grant that’s what he was doing, and once we’ve done so we’re still left with a legit racist argument against affirmative action

                Dude’s a racist chucklefuck. You don’t have to pretend otherwise to defend the Federalist Society’s right to invite hime.

                And yet here we are talking about adherents to that German political party that took power in the 30s as if it is somehow an insightful comparison.

                No, they’re being offered as disproof by counterexample to the NYT editorial’s absurd assertion that people have a fundamental right to not be shunned or shamed for their unpopular political beliefs.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                I don’t think we need to bend over backwards. But in either case you don’t know whats in his heart and neither do I. Though if he is a racist, I think it is fair to say that it’s an odd sort of racism that in the same tweet storm proposes a woman of Indian descent for the post.

                Here’s a deal I might consider though. Using your own logic, could we also conclude that all of the woke, CRT quoting chuckleheads with their obsessions with representation, where various identities fit in a hierarchy, and who should as a result benefit most from racial gerrymandering are themselves (gasp) racist? Because if we’re going to play that game I don’t think there’s a material difference between that sort of talk and what Shapiro said. At the very least I don’t recall hearing about these kinds of outbursts when those sorts of people give talks on college campuses.Report

              • InMD in reply to InMD says:

                Oops, correction, the Indian-American judge he proposed is a man. My bad, but I think the point still stands.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to InMD says:

                Somin did not himself support the nomination of Mr. Srinivasin, and, if he were President, would certainly not nominate him. He pointed him out as an example of what would constitute a proper Democratic nominee, to the extent such a thing exists, with the clear implication that Biden overlooked a clearly superior candidate in order to fish in what Somin obviously considers the shallow pool of well-qualified women.(When I was in law school, there were far more black women than Asian-Americans, and that was likely true in Srinivasin’s day as well.) Srinivasin is an excellent candidate, though by no objective measure better than KBJ, and I suspect he will be Biden’s next pick, if he gets one, precisely because he is Asian-American, and there will be crickets about it.Report

              • InMD in reply to CJColucci says:

                I’m on record here as no problem with the KBJ nomination. Said so on multiple posts now. I do kind of cringe at the token-ist way Biden announced what he was doing but that’s not her fault.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to InMD says:

                I’m aware that you’re OK with KBJ. I was addressing Somin, who isn’t.Report

              • ITYM Shapiro. Somin is the good Ilya.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Yes, thanks. I’ve been getting names wrong all day for some reason. I’ve been dealing with a Francis and a Frances on two different matters and writing one when I mean the other.Report

              • My experience with Shapiro is largely that I’ll see hm quoted and think “What? Somin is conservative but not a mindless partisan.” and then realize it’s the other Ilya.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                I get the two confused all the time as well.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                don’t think we need to bend over backwards. But in either case you don’t know whats in his heart and neither do I.

                So we’re left with what he actually said, which was racist.

                It’s not just that. There’s also the bit where gutting the VRA in the name of states rights is actually the triumph of MLK Jr’s vision which is super awesome and not at all sophistry in defense of the GOP’s very not-racist agenda of keeping black people from voting because black people usually vote for Democrats.

                Though if he is a racist, I think it is fair to say that it’s an odd sort of racism that in the same tweet storm proposes a woman of Indian descent for the post.

                “There’s a racial hierarchy that black people are at the bottom of,” is not at all an odd form of racism. It’s a very old form of racism, and one beloved of contemporary racists who we’re supposed to respect because they have fancy sinecures at think tanks.

                Some of us had heard of Ilya Shapiro before this, and already were deeply unimpressed by him.

                Here’s a deal I might consider though.

                So now we’re moving the goalposts from, “Students shouldn’t disrupt speeches given by Federalist Society goons,” which is fair enough TBH, and now we’re at, “Students should have a set of standards that match the needs of OT and MSM discourse norms that make it imperative that we never condemn a Rightward racist without finding a Leftward racist to balance things out.”

                No, I don’t think I’ll be taking that deal.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                You’re the one who brought in the issue of ‘he is 100%, absolutely a racist.’ I admit I don’t have the well calibrated racism detection powers as others who have perfected to a sublime form of art. I also don’t take the positions I do based on some sort of balancing test for the benefit of conservatives. Remember, I’m mostly team blue, which I think would be far more apparent if the flashpoints on this site were more mundane things like Medicaid expansion and less culture war things like this, where I’m more of a liberal-tarian than a progressive. However that’s just the nature of the place.

                My point was that I don’t jump to the conclusion that every DEI drowned zealot who makes a comment or supports a policy with racist outcomes (say, against Asians) far more consequential than some professor’s dumb tweet or legal analysis is a racist. Like, I’d say a number of these kerfuffles in local school systems where people straight up say they’re doing what they are at the specific expense of an identified racial group are bad, wrongheaded, and almost certainly illegal. But do I think the people doing this stuff are racist in the sense that they are out there acting with the kind of personal racial animus that was the norm in our country and the actual law for a very long time? I guess anything is possible but my gut says it’s unlikely. I feel the same about Shapiro and nothing you’ve shown me makes me think otherwise. Right now I look at the word ‘racist’ when thrown around by progressives in a similar manner as how I look at the word ‘socialist’ when it’s thrown around by the right. Sometimes it is in fact a well founded conclusion, but usually it’s a buzz word about the enemy tribe.

                At the end of the day it’s a game I’d rather not play, and is IMHO rarely insightful, but I am not the one who insists on constantly playing it.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                As the DEI folks like to remind me, we are all of us, everyone, racist in some way or another. Some of us grapple with it quietly, internally. Some of us grapple with it externally.

                Knowing that, my bar for what constitutes “a racist” versus someone engaging their biases & priors is somewhat high.

                I mean, people on this very site seem A-OK with engaging their biases and priors when it comes to white conservatives, so…Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                My bar is similar. And I concede that the various isms still exist and I do think are exploited politically. Every once in awhile I will see a comment dropped in even here at OT that IMO crosses a line. But as the all encompassing explanation for every GD thing? Even where it’s a contributing factor I see it more often than not as having low salience, low explanatory value. Admittedly this may arise at least in part from the fact that it is a guaranteed proposed explanation, 100% of the time.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                The operative word there is “conservative”, and they’ve earned every ounce of my biases and priors.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Ya know, I consider myself pretty damn liberal, and yet I’ve been called conservative plenty of times. I try not to put much stock in that label, it’s far too subjective.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

                As with Sotomayor, Shapiro is ready to call a minority an affirmative action hire.(And again, it’s not just Jackson, it’s every possible black woman.) I don’t know if he’s a racist in his heart, but you cab see what comes out of his mouth.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

                “I think that part of the issue is that stuff that was within the overton window very recently (like, let’s say 20 years) is now outside of it.”

                I don’t actually think that’s true.

                I think what’s true is that people have just accepted Reasoning By Contagion as valid, and so someone who says something that’s like something that’s like something that’s like something someone said that was bad is assumed to be saying exactly the same thing, and thus no reaction can be considered Going Too Far, because they’re incorrect.

                Or someone who was associated with someone who was associated with someone who was associated with someone who said something bad is assumed to be exactly like that person, and thus no reaction can be considered Going Too Far, because they’re incorrect.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

                So, would it be fair to say much of this discourse falls somewhere between much-ado-about-nothing and navel-gazing? And perhaps is part of a broader trend wherein, “Well, I don’t like that!” immediately leads to, “No one should like that!” and then “That’s objectively wrong!” to “We need to find a way to stop that!”?

                I think Joe Schmoe losing their job because they Tweeted something dumb is bad.
                I think people thinking more before they speak/Tweet because they fear repercussions for their words is good.
                Put those together, I’m hard pressed to say if that’s net negative or net positive.

                What I think is far, far worse is any attempt at LEGALLY stopping any of that. “You are legally barred from firing people for what they say!” suddenly means you can’t fire JerkFace McAssHat for commenting on co-workers’ bodies or using grossly offensive language in the break room.
                “No no… we don’t mean that!” Okay then… I return to my original question of show me how we achieve any of this.

                I’m glad folks have space to pen anti-cancel culture pieces. And I’m glad I retain the right to roll my eyes at it or go further. And I’m glad the system is such that I consider if/when/how to go further because of what might follow if I do.

                Shaming and shunning can be good and can be bad. Somehow banning it would be undoubtedly awful.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                As has been mentioned before, I think people are fine with shaming and shunning, it’s the scale/scope/proportionality of it that has people uncomfortable.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                People are fine with shaming and shunning, but a lot of people will say they aren’t exactly because they don’t want to get into questions of (especially) proportionality, because answering those questions requires examine actual cases of shaming and shunning in light of what people actually said to get shamed and shunned.

                This is extremely inconvenient if you want to be sure that your bigoted buddies get to sit at the Cool Kids Table, which is the underlying concern of high profile media opinionators who drive this discourse.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Yes & to expand on that, I think there are some pretty distinct layers to the whole Cancelation thing, like laminar flow. Normal people are down near the wall and not likely to experience anything in the way of Cancelation (doesn’t mean it can’t happen, just highly unlikely, and in those cases, the proportionality is often out of whack). The more public your profile, the higher up in the flow you are and the more likely things can get… turbulent.

                The media movers & shakers (across the political spectrum) are up near that turbulent flow, and given social media and the speed of the internet, they get to feel that turbulence more acutely and for longer before things settle down again.

                They obviously don’t like that. So they like to shove a stick in the flow as often as they can and stir things up, so people down in the safe parts of the flow feel the turbulence as well. This is why we all hear about every instance of Cancelation, no matter how low stakes. If everybody feels like it’s a danger…

                The media hyperfocus on Cancelation incidents also messes with institutions ability to handle things. Would a college campus necessarily sit on their hands because a couple of disruptive protestors interfered with the speech of an invited speaker? Would an employer necessarily fire an employee if whatever they said or did (no matter how out of context) didn’t go viral? If they didn’t feel like they were under a world wide microscope every time, probably not.

                Much like with crime rates and crime reporting, our perceptions are out of whack, in all the layers.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I agree. But then the conversation should be “When does shaming/shunning go too far?” And not “Why we should stop shaming and shunning.”

                I understand nuance is dead or that people may mean the former when they say the latter but so long as they say the latter, I’m going to simply shrug and shake my head.

                And to Pillsy’s point, I think what lots of people are uncomfortable with is their own risk of shaming/shunning — regardless of appropriateness — and not any larger conversations about the practice. “Shame for thee and not for me” seems very prevalent.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                See my comment to Pillsy above. It goes too far because the media gives it undue attention.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I think it SOMETIMES goes too far. And I think your comment is spot on.

                But just because it sometimes goes too far doesn’t mean me saying, “Woh, dude… not cool” if someone used gay as a slur is me trying to unfairly “cancel” a person.

                If everything is cancelling, nothing is.

                So, we should rightfully pushback on disproportionate responses. But we should also push back to reflexive push back to more appropriate responses.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                (I’m going to focus on the right in this comment not because they’re the only ones doing it but they do it head and shoulders better than the left.)

                “Cancel culture” and now “shaming and shunning” feel like further weaponization of language.

                “I disagree with that thing you said.”
                “QUIT CANCELLING ME BRO!”

                “The focus on Obama’s birth certificate feels pretty inappropriate.”
                “Oh so voting for McCain makes me a RACIST now?!”

                Does “cancelling” go too far? Sometimes yes. Did “racism” get thrown around too loosely? Yes. But then the right wing so intensely amplified the worst examples and poisoned the well on any serious discussion about the practices themselves and the behaviors that might elicit them.

                Notice, we aren’t digging into Shapiro’s actual comments. We’re talking about a shouting match.

                It’s a brilliant tactic the right has mastered.

                ETA: And the left to its (our) discredit play right into it over and over again.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t think it’s the ‘left’, per se. I think it’s media, because of the clicks.

                A story of cancellation run amok gets the clicks. I won’t bother with a chicken and egg discussion of which side got this ball of dung rolling, because at this point, it doesn’t matter. The ball of dung has enough inertia to be a problem.

                Think about this way, when you see a story about someone getting cancelled, it’s usually “A person Tweeted X, and now it/the response to it has gone viral!”

                Really, it’s viral? By what definition? Is there a definition of when something goes viral, or is it like porn?

                Or is it more often a self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone in media sees/hears about something that is inflammatory (in or out of context), and is maybe getting a bit of push-back. Media person pops off a quick post about said thing going viral, and puts it on blast & boom, it’s viral now!

                The irony of the NYT opinion piece is that they are as much a part of the problem as anyone else, because they can’t help but put such things on blast. They screw up the proportionality of the response and then complain about the proportionality of the response.

                They paint a target on somebody, and when everyone gets done taking a shot at the target, they bemoan the fact that the poor person died with 10,000 bullet holes in them.

                PS They do the same thing with criminal suspects and defendants.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Heh… its like when multiple media members/outlets with massive platforms comment on stories NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT… ignoring that they are in fact talking about it but focusing on who is/isn’t talking about it rather than the story itself.

                The media telling me something had gone viral gets a big fat shrug from me.

                But… I’m also pretty social media averse. I’m not on Twitter, have a limited FB or Instagram presence, and don’t use anything else.

                I sometimes hear Person X did crappy thing Y and I may dig in a bit if either aspect is of particular interest.

                I mean, right now I’m mostly wondering why we aren’t talking more about DeShaun Watson and the Cleveland Browns. I mean, FFS, if anyone is deserving some shaming and shunning right now…!Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Kazzy says:

      I’d be 100% okay with one of those universities saying, “Hey, we’ve invited this speaker here and we want to make sure they have the opportunity to speak so we’re going to enact and enforce a code of conduct for the audience.” Go for it.

      I’m not. Private universities, sure, whatever, but public universities? No.

      99% of this is the far-right trolling, and it would instantly be stopped if universities just stop moronically letting people use them to give speeches.

      Rent a goddamn auditorium. Hell, stand in the public square and give your speech. Stop letting people use taxpayer resources to make speeches.

      Why the hell do we even _have_ this in the age of Youtube?Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

        “[I]t would instantly be stopped if universities just stop moronically letting people use them to give speeches.”

        you’ve suggested before that universities should be considered to be supportive and in agreement with the speech of everyone on their property and when i pointed out that was gonna be used to hammer minorities far more than white men you stopped replying to the threadReport

        • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

          I have literally no idea what you’re talking about, and I don’t think universities should be considered to be in agreement with everyone who happens to be speaking ‘on their property’.

          There is a large difference between having someone talking while on your (i.e., public) property and saying ‘We are allowing this specific person (and no one else) to hold a speech in our facilities and we will punish anyone else who attempts to speak over them.’.

          As I pointed out, I have never been asked to speak at a university, so the idea there’s some first amendment right to do that is rather absurd.

          Anyone has the right to speak on the quad, with some generic time and place restrictions and barring actual harassment of people.Report

  23. Chip Daniels says:

    Lets look at some specifics of what is happening.

    “We’re Going to Be Conservative.” Official Orders Books Removed From Schools, Targeting Titles About Transgender People.

    Over the next two weeks, the school district embarked on one of the largest book removals in the country, pulling about 130 titles from library shelves for review. Nearly three-quarters of the removed books featured LGBTQ characters or themes, according to a ProPublica and Texas Tribune analysis. Others dealt with racism, sex ed, abortion and women’s rights.

    Two months later, a volunteer review committee voted to permanently ban three of the books and return the others to shelves. But that may not be the end of the process.

    In his recorded comments to librarians, Glenn described the review of 130 titles as the first step in a broader appraisal of library content, and a new policy approved by the school board later in January grants him and other administrators broad authority to unilaterally remove additional titles they deem inappropriate, with no formal review and no way for the public to easily find out what has been pulled from shelves.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/were-going-to-be-conservative-official-orders-books-removed-from-schools-targeting-titles-about-transgender-peopleReport

  24. Jesse says:

    As I’ve said before, if you care about free speech for Normies, end at-will employment. That’ll end the worries for 98% of actual people in this country. Now, current opinion writers will still be mad people can dunk on them on Twitter, but oh well.

    But, of course, also like I said, most anti-woke people, well hating the authoritarian power of the mob, does agree with the authoritarian power of the boss. Getting laid off for saying the n-word on Facebook? The end of America. Somebody getting laid off because the stock price didn’t rise enough? That’s America, baby.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Jesse says:

      “You can’t be fired for things you say!”
      “They called their boss an asshole!”
      “Oh well, that’s different.”
      “So can you be fired what you say?
      “Not if you say it on Facebook!”
      “Well, they said they hate certain people on Facebook and it went viral and now lots of people won’t shop here and we’re losing money and I have to fire someone to keep the lights on.”
      “Oh well, that’s different.”
      “So you can be fired for what you say on Facebook.”
      “Well, it depends!”
      “On?”
      “The boss can fire people if they say things the boss doesn’t like.”
      “Isn’t that how things work now?”
      “Well, yea, but I don’t like when bosses fire people who say things that *I* like so THAT should be illegal.”
      “Seems reasonable.”Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

        We can come up with plenty of examples.

        You are a teacher. Imagine a co-worker who went to facebook and complained about the kids. “We’ve got a bunch of stupid and ugly children this year. Each year stupider and uglier than the last!”

        Heck, that might be a fun comedy exercise. “Here is a job. Write a good facebook post that would get a person fired from this particular job.”

        Or do the reverse. Come up with jobs that you wouldn’t get fired from for various facebook posts: “Had a bitchin’ time at the fight club on Thursday night. One thing about Irish people: You want to punch them in the body, not in the face! You’ll break your hand before you get close to knocking them out!”

        Having a rule that says “don’t be stupid on social media, don’t say anything you wouldn’t want read by your manager to HR” is a common sense rule. It’s just good advice for anybody.

        “Don’t say anything that would upset your boss. Don’t say anything that would upset your boss’s customers.”

        But something about that just doesn’t sit right, does it?Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

          But something about that just doesn’t sit right, does it?

          Shaking fist at clouds.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

            Hey, “Don’t be stupid” is advice that applies to anybody and everybody in any and all circumstances.

            It’s advice that will help keep you from getting fired.
            It’s advice that will help keep you from getting killed.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              I’m sorry, I thought you had a point.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                My point was vaguely “Is. Is. Is. But maybe consider… ought?”

                And your point appeared to be “Ought? OLD MAN SHAKES FIST AT CLOUDS!”

                And my counter-point was “Oh, indeed. Is.”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                So what, exactly, would you consider a suitable “ought”? Are there potential “action items,” to use Ken White’s phrase? Are you seriously considering limiting the boss’s ability to fire people for being stupid or offensive? And how would that work? Or are you just JAQing off?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I’m working on “ought”.

                I don’t have an essay, sorry.

                I suppose we could hammer out potential action items but some of those action items that most quickly come to mind will have problems with the incentives given by social media companies.

                When it comes to limiting the boss’s ability to fire people for being stupid or offensive, I’m finding myself noticing disparate impact and finding the disparate impact from not even considering limiting the boss’s ability to fire people for being stupid or offensive-to-him to have a lot of weird corners that could easily result in equally loaded questions asking “are you saying that it’s okay for bosses to fire people for X?”

                I don’t know how that would work.

                Well, I do think that the question “But something about that just doesn’t sit right, does it?” has the obvious answer of “Yes. Something about that just doesn’t sit right.”

                Like, to the point where the main defense against someone noticing that it doesn’t sit right is to defend the status quo and point out that life is unfair.

                Do you have any additional questions for me?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’ll wait until you’ve thought things through. Let me know when you have something.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I’m going to see if I can get my unformed thoughts to coalesce by discussing it.

                Feel free to share your thoughts, of course.

                Or, hell, just complain that other people don’t have perfect solutions. It’s all good.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I have shared my thoughts on the subject in a number of places in this comment thread and elsewhere. No point in repeating myself.”Perfect” solutions? I’d accept coherent ones.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Well, if you consider these thoughts more interesting than those ones, thanks for sharing these ones instead.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                You really can’t read, can you?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                It’s more that I notice what thoughts you see as worth repeating and those you don’t.

                Thanks for taking the time to ask me about action items!Report

        • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

          “Don’t say anything that would upset your boss. Don’t say anything that would upset your boss’s customers.”

          But something about that just doesn’t sit right, does it?

          It doesn’t sit right because we constantly and mostly unconsciously analogize posting stuff to social media with shooting shit with our buddies over beers at the local watering hole, when it’s much closer to putting up a billboard.

          “Don’t put anything on a billboard that would upset your boss. Don’t put anything on a billboard that would upset your boss’s customers,” is also good advice for anybody.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

            Yeah. And we can’t get social media to admit that they’re like putting up a billboard because the selling point of social media is that you can talk to your friends.

            And eventually it becomes people posting “I don’t open the microwave at :01 to feel like Jack Bauer… I open it then because the beep is annoying!” because that’s the level of stuff that doesn’t get you noticed by the bosses.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

            Good point.

            It’s painfully difficult — probably impossible — to never say anything that might offend someone.

            It’s much easier to avoid posting things that might get you in trouble at work.

            Even with that…

            Sex/relationship advice columnist Dan Savage says we are likely approaching a point — if we aren’t already there — where someone having nude photos leaked is just not a big deal from a public response standpoint (the violation of privacy remains). So many of us send naughty photos that it’s no longer seen as a major tawdry act. It’s just something people do.

            I hope we reach a point where enough of us have regrettable social media faux pas that we can respond to genuine faux pas — especially faux pas from the distant past — with empathy. We aren’t there yet but I think that’s a good goal. Like, if someone says, “Did you see what Joe found on that candidate’s Twitter from 12 years ago?! He posted about going out to chase some tail after finals!” I hope the response is “Oof… that’s kinda cringe but it was 12 years ago. Do you know what I was saying when I was his age?”Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

          Well, I’d add some caveats, largely around other protected rights. Like, you can’t fire someone for saying “Happy Hanukkah” on Facebook even if it offends potential Neo-Nazi customers because religious expression is itself protected.

          Admittedly, that can get dicey.
          “I think homosexuality is wrong.”
          “I think gays should burn in hell.”

          Egads!

          Lots of this doesn’t sit right. Part of living in a pluralistic liberal society is dealing with things that don’t sit right.

          The alternative, from my vantage point, sits far worse.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

            But it’s not just a place where we’re worried about offending the new those Germans.

            I remember this fun story.

            If you don’t feel like clicking, 24 year-old knucklehead goes to college game and holds up a sign saying “donate to my beer fund venmo!”

            Instead of getting $17, he got around a million. Freaking out, he donates it to a children’s hospital. This gets writeup in local newspaper. Local newspaper reporter unearths a racist joke the guy told 8 years prior. Knucklehead apologizes, gets fired anyway. There’s “what the hell?” outrage. Some enterprising outraged people google the newspaper reporter’s history and find a racial slur, some jokes about gay marriage, and so on. Reporter was then fired. Reporter writes essay for CJR that includes the paragraphs:

            In the hours after King’s statement, people on Twitter found material that they used to discredit me, instead. They shared offensive tweets that I’d posted when I was younger, including statements that were meant sarcastically but that employed homophobic and misogynistic language and could be read as such if taken at face value. I also tweeted, verbatim, a Kanye West lyric that used the N-word.

            Tweeting these things was a mistake, and I apologize for them. I would not tweet the same things now. Like many people as they mature, I’ve come to understand that such language can cause real harm, and I’ve learned to better represent my values.

            We don’t need to use the potential offense in our theoretical examples.

            We can use stuff that happens.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

              Milkshake Duck phenomenon is real. I get it. I don’t like how any of that played out. See my comments about how I hope this turns out.

              I don’t see an “action item” solution that doesn’t feel worse than the problem it seeks to solve. Hopefully, we can learn to be better and more empathetic and save the outrage for the truly outrageous and offer empathy when warranted and guidance when needed.

              Do you have a proposal that would have prevented any of what happened in that story?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                The reporter could have done the search on the knucklehead and, instead of publicizing his knuckleheaded tweets from when he was 16, given him a call and said “Dude, seriously, delete your old tweets. If someone found these, they could use them to harm you! Delete the tweets and this becomes a heartwarming story.”

                That would have prevented what happened in that story.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                That’s not a proposal. That’s an idea. A good one!

                But what’s the action item?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I probably need to hammer down the material differences between proposals, ideas, and action items.

                So if we want to come up with an action item, we need something at the editorial level rather than the reporter level?

                We need editors capable of telling reporters “it’s funny that you found these but we’re running a story on him being someone who helped a children’s hospital. Call him and tell him to delete his old tweets.”

                So how do we write a policy for editors to get them to say that sort of thing next time?

                I can’t think of one easily or quickly.

                I did remember the Detroit Free Press sports writer who wrote about a potential head coach’s homophobic comments from twenty years before who was, of course, quickly found to have tweeted out homophobic stuff himself. This happened last year.

                So I guess at editorial we should have a policy for editors to tell reporters “DELETE ALL OF YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA HISTORY. ALL OF IT. ALL OF IT RIGHT NOW.”

                And that would prevent the second half of these stories.

                Not the first half, though.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                So, basically, what I originally said:

                “WE MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT CANCEL CULTURE!!!”
                “What do you propose?”
                “Well, people should just be better.”
                “How do you propose we achieve that?”
                “Oh golly gee… there really isn’t a way.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Well, I thought we were writing policies for editorial.

                Are we now writing one for society and not just editorial?

                Because we could run with something like the whole Enlightenment Culture Stew thing and talk our way through the importance of the Scientific Method and all that but it won’t be boilable down into a sentence.

                It’s, like, the only solutions we will accept need to fit on a fortune cookie, not be applicable to Potsies, and work 100% well the rest of the time?

                I’ll see what I can come up with as I drive around today.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well, what can I do about the editorial policies at any given media outlet?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Wait, what’s the goal? Proposals? Action Items?

                I mean, I 100% agree with you that cultivating Virtue among the society would result in a better world. A virtuous knucklehead would have never made those jokes at 16. A virtuous journalist would have said “I’m going to call this guy and ask him to delete those tweets.” A virtuous editor would have said “I’m not going to run this unless you call the guy, ask him to delete his tweets, and he refuses to delete them.”

                Just *ONE* virtuous person in there would have nipped the whole situation in the bud.

                So let’s say we don’t cultivate virtue. We’re stuck with coming up with before-the-fact rules or after-the-fact punishments (or both).

                What would a before-the-fact rule look like?

                Well, at an editorial level, take Aaron Calvin’s statements about how he’s learned to better represent his values and give the knucklehead a chance to say “wait, those don’t represent my values!”

                But if we need a cultural rule, we’re probably stuck with something like “lighten up, quit crab bucketing” and make explicit that the outcomes that follow #hasjustinelandedyet are bad outcomes that we want to avoid.

                No deontological rule setting. Just pure vulgar utilitarianism. We want to avoid these outcomes. Don’t do things that result in these outcomes. Even if they feel good.

                Ain’t got no quick and easy “Do This!” rules.
                Just “Don’t do that…” rules.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I would support different work places putting in place rules that help us avoid the shitty outcomes of disproportionate shaming. Media outlets should have better editorial policies. Other businesses should have clearer HR policies. Etc.

                But that’s not something I have much impact over.

                When I hear that “We” should do something, I imagine some sort of collective effort.

                I oppose any sort of governmental restriction on shaming. Full stop.

                If the “something” that should be done is companies coming up with better hiring and firing policies, okay then. But has anyone been advocating for that? Cuz I’m just hearing a lot of calls that we do something or something must be done but precious few actual somethings.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I would agree that we need better policies… but part of the problem is recognizing them when written.

                Here’s the current policy: (insert example here)

                What would “better” look like? More adjectives? Fewer? More exceptions? More managerial discretion? Less?

                As for what ought to be done, I’m sort of holding the opinion that if wolf is called enough times, people will just stop showing up.

                Are you familiar with Roy Teixeria? He’s one of the co-authors of “The Emerging Democratic Majority”. That was a book that made a splash a couple of decades ago.

                If you visit his stubstack and look at his post titles, you may be tempted to assume that he’s a secret Republican concern-trolling. “Even the liberal Ruy Teixeria!”, you may be tempted to say.

                What needs to be done? Much like with the reporter licking his chops at the opportunity to Milkshake Duck a knucklehead who gave a million bucks to a children’s hospital, I’m just going to point at what Teixeria sees coming and say “We should probably avoid doing things that will result in that.”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                A virtuous journalist would have said “I’m going to call this guy and ask him to delete those tweets.” A virtuous editor would have said “I’m not going to run this unless you call the guy, ask him to delete his tweets, and he refuses to delete them.”

                I’d be surprised if journalists — virtuous or not — think it is their right or responsibility to intervene in their subjects’ lives like that. Probably happens now and then, especially if you’re doing long-form pieces that involve long and close contact with the subject, but it raises ethical questions and probably leaves the journalists who do that uneasy.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                it raises ethical questions and probably leaves the journalists who do that uneasy.

                I’m comparing that to what actually happened (noted above) and concluding that what actually happened had more ethical idiocy and more journalistic unease. Like, what actually happened was worse. But that’s pretty utilitarian.

                If you don’t want a utilitarian calculus but a deontological one, we can always look at how Mr. Carter responded to how his racist tweets were interpreted and apply the measure that he feels applies to himself and apply it to everybody. Instead of the set of rules that we were apparently abiding by at the time.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                That may be what you’re concluding, but it might be more useful to hear from actual journalists about the ethics of their profession. Anyone out there?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I linked to the essay written by the actual journalist in question.

                It’s worth reading!Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I read it at the time and have re-read it now. Interesting, but it simply doesn’t address the ethics of trying to straighten out a reporter’s subject’s life. Not surprising, since nobody took up your suggestion.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Well, I suppose you can wait until an actual journalist shows up and does a compare/contrast of the solution that I offered versus the solution that actually presented itself in the real world.

                I’ll keep an eye on the comments looking for one as well.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

                I remember that kerfuffle the first time around and one thing that was largely absent then and remains largely absent now is, “What the hell was wrong with that guy’s boss?”

                Like yes you should be mindful of what you post on social media but employers should also be less eager to fire people over shit from eight years backReport

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                “What the hell was wrong with that guy’s boss?”

                One point that keeps getting hammered on is “would it be okay to fire a white supremacist?”

                And if the answer is “yes”, then this is just a little bit down the road from that.

                “Don’t be stupid” now includes not deleting your history regularly. There was even a webpage dedicated to finding troublesome tweets. Like, it powered through doing a search of any given public twitter account and looked for keywords for everything from slurs to words like “drunk” or “boobs” that can also be a red flag for potential cancellation.

                Don’t be stupid. Delete your history. Delete your memories.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                “ Delete your memories,” said no one ever.

                Strawman much?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Kazzy, I was using the term in the facebook/twitter sense. Not the human brain/consciousness sense.

                (Though I admit to having enjoyed the ambiguity when I wrote it.)Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                One point that keeps getting hammered on is “would it be okay to fire a redhaired guy?”

                If the answer is “yes,” then…what?

                What follows logically from this?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m not conflating physical traits with being stupid, Chip.

                And I think it’s kind of problematic that it’s so easy for you to think that they’re equivalent.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Is one acceptable, and one not, in your opinion?

                Or are they both acceptable, or neither?

                Or this something you haven’t worked out yet?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think that firing someone for being a white supremacist is okay.

                I think that firing someone for having the wrong color hair is not okay.

                Can you say the same?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I can, and FWIW, this is the general position that the majority of people take.

                But I need to point out that this an example of the Overton Window, where firing someone for being a Republican is seen as intolerant in a way that firing someone for being a white supremacist is not.

                And this has the effect of censoring white supremacist views, where there are subtle and not so subtle punishments for holding ideas outside the window.

                IOW, the “good” kind of censorship, in most people’s minds, even the minds of people who swear up and down they never support censorship.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                And so stuff like what happened in Iowa where the knucklehead and the reporter both got fired is just something that just happens. (Note use of passive voice.)

                Hey, it’s not exactly perfect but what, in this vale of tears, would be?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m just trying to get everyone *sweeps hand across all of the OT commentarat *
                To acknowledge that yes, we really do want to allow people to get punished for some types of speech.

                Even if we ourselves wouldn’t punish them, we will allow others to punish them.
                And further, that the categories of protected speech, even ibetween private actors, are largely determined by our collective biases and belief systems.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I got hired by a company that had recently fired a receptionist. A co-worker made a joke about it. She was on facebook on her phone on breaks and quite regularly gave running commentary on her day.

                This included being corrected at some point about something or other (heck, maybe about inappropriate facebook usage!). She made a post complaining about her boss.

                She was soon thereafter sacked.

                Bosses have power and you shouldn’t smack talk them in places where they can see.

                It’s common sense, really.Report

              • That’s precisely the reason I put in the scene from the Blues Brothers.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Burt Likko says:

                I referenced that! But then edited it down to be more concise.

                Those sorts of Outgroups and Taboos which everyone just agrees to are dangerous in a way, because in our minds they don’t really count.

                They just seem so axiomatic and self evident they don’t actually need any support or examination.

                So we fool ourselves into thinking our high minded principles are based on rigorous logic when in fact they disconcerting arbitrary.

                Jonathan Haidt had a terrific section in The Righteous Mind where he discussed “Harmless Taboos”, things that were disgusting yet posed no actual harm, like adult incest or human flesh eating.

                Even liberal people recoiled at them for reasons they could never quite articulate.

                It’s like that with Notsees. No one can quite articulate why it’s OK to censor them but not others, but are okay with censoring them anyway.

                (So much for being concise!)Report

              • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Eh it’s not that hard.

                Nazis want subject me and the majority of the people I love to a campaign of industrialized slaughter due to accidents of our births.

                I think it’s extremely kind and forgiving that I’m willing to settle for using strictly lawful means to ensure they’re unemployed due to their despicable choicesReport

              • Chip Daniels in reply to pillsy says:

                There’s a quip going around about how it’s not real Notseeism if it doesn’t come from the Bavarian region of Germany, otherwise it’s just sparkling authoritarianism.

                The point is that when it’s guys with swastikas and jack boots it is in fact easy.

                But when it is a Russian saying there is no such thing as Ukraine?

                A guy politely suggesting that there are only two genders and anyone who feels otherwise needs psychiatric treatment?

                As Haidt demonstrated, our moral precepts are very often grounded in intuitive and irrational reasons.
                And there’s nothing wrong with that!

                We can’t always pin down an objective boundary of the Overton Window, but like Potter Stewart, we know it when we see it.

                To the obvious objection of “what if that gets abused or results in bad outcomes” the answer is yes, it has many times.

                But there isn’t any more workable suggestion on offer.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The point is that when it’s guys with swastikas and jack boots it is in fact easy.

                I haven’t felt it’s easy anymore for about five years now at least.

                Charlottesville was kind of the breaking point for me. After that it was clear a lot of allegedly respectable people didn’t really have much problem with them.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Jaybird says:

                This is how you do it.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

          “Don’t say anything that would upset your boss. Don’t say anything that would upset your boss’s customers.”

          But something about that just doesn’t sit right, does it?

          What?

          I literally cannot figure where you are going with that. You realize this is the reality that almost all employed people live with, right?

          It’s just ‘upset the boss’ is historically stuff like ‘don’t like their music’ or ‘imply you disagree with your boss’s conservative views’, and only recently has it been things like ‘promote white supremancy’.Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to DavidTC says:

            In the official capacity of your job. That’s why the Internet is anonymous.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              Ah, yes, the people who ‘imply they disagree with their boss’s conservative views’ in…the official capacity of their job?

              I gave examples of ‘ways that people often have their jobs threatened by personal interactions with people in their work that have nothing to do with their actual job, but have to self-censor themselves about anyway because bosses are often petty asshats’, and you decide we’re talking about things people do in some official capacity.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

        I can’t think of a statement made by an employee of a company that would push me to discontinue buying the company’s product. A company’s public statements, donations, or policies could, but not a public statement by an employee. I think that even holds for CEO’s / owners. but that’s a close call.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

          I agree. Others feel differently. Such is their right.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

            They may feel differently, but can’t we acknowledge that to act on those feelings is bad? That people who pressure companies on the basis of such are the enemy of a healthy society? It may be impossible to legislate that behaviour away, but we should be willing to condemn it, and say that any company that doesn’t give in to the pressure is behaving honorably.

            I may be overlooking some category of statement, but I can’t think of one. If an employee puts in a good 40 hours of work per week and spends the remainder of his waking hours shouting obscenities, I can’t think of a reason a company should be pressured to fire him.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

              Well, it depends, right?

              I mean, if I choose Joe’s Coffee at 525 Maple Avenue instead of Jim’s Cafe at 528 Maple Avenue because the latter has some employee who is always ranting about THE JEWZ in the town FB group… am I doing something contemptible?

              If I walked into Jim’s everyday with my cup of Joe’s coffee and said, “I WILL NEVER SHOP HERE SO LONG AS THAT GUY WORKS HERE!”… sure. That’s a bad way to handle things.

              But isn’t voting with my feet and wallet one of the ways we are encouraged to exercise non-coercive influence in a free, capitalistic society?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                “I mean, if I choose Joe’s Coffee at 525 Maple Avenue instead of Jim’s Cafe at 528 Maple Avenue because the latter has some employee who is always ranting about THE JEWZ in the town FB group… am I doing something contemptible?”

                A little, yeah. If you ever tell anyone why you’re doing it, then definitely.

                ETA: Actually, no ETA. I’ve been trying to write something to clarify this, but I think it should stand on its own. I’m curious to see what people think of the statement as is.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

                So it’s a little bit contemptible to patronize Joe’s over Jim’s because of an antisemitic ranter at Jim’s and “definitely” contemptible to tell someone — indeed, “anyone” — why you’re doing it.
                Why? And how does that fit into a culture of free expression, free choice, and free markets that many of us say we want?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                So what would be the right thing to do? Force myself to Jim’s? Split my business 50/50? Flip a coin?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                To be clear…

                If I choose Joe’s over Jim’s because I like the coffee better, that’s okay?
                If I choose Joe’s over Jim’s because I like their signage better, that’s okay?
                If I choose Joe’s over Jim’s because I like their cups better, that’s okay?
                What if I like Joe’s cups better because they say “Happy Holidays” and Jim’s say “Merry Christmas”? Is that okay?

                I have to say, it’s really wild to learn that making informed consumer choices is contemptible based on the type of information used.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                Why you choose A over B is entirely your business.

                But it’s important to note that if that employee is always ranting and you know about it, is it because they are an employee who interfaces with the public/customers, or is it because they are a back room employee who got put on blast for something they said outside of work?

                There is a difference between the employee that clearly, publicly, represents the company to customers/vendors/partners, & the employee who is but an internal cog in the machine.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I didn’t think about the specific role in my hypothetical though had just sort of assumed the person was a barista. Like, all the baristas are perfectly pleasant in the store but then I log on to the local FB group to see what the community picnic is and suddenly see an anti-semitic screed and I look and think, “Isn’t that George from Jim’s Cafe? WTF?”

                Like, I struggle with the idea that me choosing to go to Joe’s with my sons — who have Jewish family on their mom’s side — because of George’s comments on FB somehow makes ME the contemptible one.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                Right, but how do you know that is George? Because he interfaces with the public. What if it’s Bob in accounting. You’ve never seen Bob, you have no idea who Bob is or where he works unless someone spelled it out for you.

                Although…

                This gets back to the whole talking to your buddies versus putting up the billboard. George said something vile on a public page. He put up the damn billboard. Assuming we don’t have a case of something being taken out of context, I’m not going to lose too much sleep over him getting fired.

                But Bob? Did Bob say something on a public page, using his real name? Or did someone have to dig it out and expose him? How old is the post? What’s the context? Here’s where it gets sticky.

                That said, once it becomes public, I don’t fault a company for sending Bob packing if they determine that Bob really holds those beliefs, because that would potentially expose them to hostile/toxic work environment issues.

                Perhaps Bob should have the ability to file suit against who ever exposed his private conversations, should that be determined, but that’s about the limit of what should be permitted.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Right, but how do you know that is George? Because he interfaces with the public. What if it’s Bob in accounting. You’ve never seen Bob, you have no idea who Bob is or where he works unless someone spelled it out for you.

                What if it’s because Bob sat down to me, a stranger, at a bar, told me that he voted for Trump to stick it to the Jews, then asked me if I was Jewish, and when I said yes launched into a rant about how Jews are all greedy, just like his Jewish boss.

                And then he went on to tell me where he worked.

                Like, this is not a hypothetical. This is a real thing that really happened to me.

                It so happens that he worked in selling used auto parts so I’ve had any cause or opportunity to act on it, but according to Pinky, if I were to tell the truth about what a dumb asshole bigot this guy was, I’d be the bad guy.

                That’s crap. Extremely offensive crap.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Yeah, no, I’d be cool with you dragging him out. At some point, you have to look at someone and say, “You did this to yourself.”

                Hell, I even said as much re: Shapiro. He’s no freshman, he either knew what he was doing when he made that tweet, or he was being stupid and careless. So if folks want to drag him and shame him, I got no issue with that.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to pillsy says:

                Suppose, hypothetically, that the head of a major car company was a huge anti-Semite. Would it be OK to not buy his cars? And would I need to keep that private, or would it be OK to tell other people why I didn’t buy that brand?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I’m not talking about Bob. Bob’s situation is very different as you note.

                I have zero interest in policing every thought held or every comment made by everyone I interact with. It’s exhausting and just takes us farther down the path of eye-for-an-eye blindness.

                Just yesterday we went to a local shop to buy baseball cleats. This shop specializes in youth sports gear and has been a community institution for over 50 years. For generations, these guys have dedicated themselves to helping outfit kids to play sports.

                And while we were there, one of the guys used the term “Orientals” in reference to the Asian-owned nail salon next door.

                OOF!

                Now… context matters. It arose in a conversation about how they’ve avoided making major renovations to the store because doing so would require them to catch up on all sorts of codes, specifically one regarding public bathrooms (the younger boy needed to pee so they had to take him to the employee bathroom). The guy talked about how he tried to advise the salon next door against major renovations because they’d be subject to the same thing but because of language and cultural differences, they didn’t understand this and ended up getting slammed on costs to meet all the new codes.

                It was in that context… in noting the reason his advice didn’t land… that he used the term.

                Again, OOF.

                I didn’t like that turn. Had I had more of a relationship with the guy — this was my first time shopping there — I might have said, “I think the term you’re looking for is Asian.” But i just sort of let it slide.

                I paid for the cleats they dug around in the back to find for us and the batting gloves only they carry in Extra Small and thanked them for explaining to the younger boy how the screen printing machine worked.

                I wish that guy didn’t use that term. I hope he doesn’t use it again. He used it in his place of business while representing his place of business. He also used it while trying to tell a story about how he tried to partner with his neighboring business to help them out and while actively helping us out in ways both related and unrelated to their business (cleats are business! Toileting is not!). He used an outdated term, likely ignorant of its possible offense.

                I’m okay with folks being imperfect. We’re all imperfect. And if someone came to me telling me that story and telling me they’ll never shop there again, I might probe a bit to see if they could consider it differently and wouldn’t let it impact my own shopping choices.

                We all get to draw our own lines. That is how it should be. And we don’t have to like where others draw their lines, but part of being able to draw our own lines means being able to draw lines about where others draw lines. On and on.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                There is a difference between the employee that clearly, publicly, represents the company to customers/vendors/partners, & the employee who is but an internal cog in the machine.

                Why?

                Why is every form of consumer choice OK except for the one where you’re like, “I don’t like that place because it severely bugs me because this ranting bigot works there,” it’s suddenly so bad and shameful you can’t even announce it in public?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Is he a ranting bigot? I worked with a guy years ago. Perfectly nice guy, very friendly, great co-worker. Never said a single bad thing about anyone working in our rather diverse workplace. One day, he hands me a book, encourages me to read it. I cracked the book open and figured out it was an Aryan Nation screed dressed up as an academic work.

                Was it offensive? Hell yeah. Should he get fired for it? Tough call. He kept those opinions on lock down in the workplace, so he didn’t create a hostile work place. If it became widely known that he held those beliefs…?

                What if you work at a place where an employee is poly-amorous. Jill at the front desk has two husbands. She keeps it quiet. Someone finds out. Polygamy is not legal in the US, and a lot of people have strong negative feelings about it. Should Jill get fired over it?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Is he a ranting bigot? I worked with a guy years ago. Perfectly nice guy, very friendly, great co-worker. Never said a single bad thing about anyone working in our rather diverse workplace. One day, he hands me a book, encourages me to read it. I cracked the book open and figured out it was an Aryan Nation screed dressed up as an academic work.

                Speaking for myself, I would have walked that book down to HR at my earliest convenience.

                Like a dude like that in my workplace?

                I would be worried about him as a threat to my physical safety, and even if he isn’t well tough fucking luck don’t hand coworkers Nazi literature at your next job you absolute tool.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                20+ Years ago, when this happened? What do you think HR would have said?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                No idea. I wasn’t in the workforce back thenReport

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                On the one hand, I agree that putting such opinions on blast and engaging the shaming is a necessary tactic for combating such things.

                On the hand, putting every Tom, Dick, & Harry on blast and turn their lives upside down is a great way to build public sympathy for such people because those attitudes aren’t utterly and completely outside the window yet. As crappy as it is, being racist or antisemitic isn’t on par with have sex with toddlers (yet). So IMHO putting the people close to the wall on blast in the same way we put people close to the turbulence… That’s going to run a strong risk of backfiring.

                And IMHO, a lot of the conservative culture war victories of late are evidence of that backlash.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                In the official capacity of your job, crapping on your boss or company is probably not a good way to keep your job.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                No need to get defensive. I tossed this out as speculative, and I said I was curious to see other people’s takes on it. I do think that the coffee, signs, and cups are part of the product you’re buying in a way that an employee’s political posts aren’t. I’m trying to think of a counter-example and I can’t.

                As to the idea that “making informed consumer choices is contemptible based on the type of information used”…I think we can both agree that if you stopped going to Joe’s because you found out an employee was Jewish, that would qualify as contemptuous.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Kazzy says:

                You’re not going to get a coherent answer — if you get any answer at all — to that question.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                Mere hours ago I was talking about how good this comment section is, but now I’m reminded, for the nth fishing time, that I’m wrong.

                Because we end up where we always end up in these conversations: with someone insisting that ranting anti-semitism is such a minor personal failing that I have a moral obligation to remain silent about it, lest the anti-semite’s employment prospects be damaged by his employer learning of his public ranting.

                It’s not about protecting freedom of expression or peoples’ ability to tell uncomfortable truths.

                It’s about remaining respectfully silent in the face of vile bigotry.Report

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

                This is the first conversation I can think of where we’ve talked about reactions to anti-Semitism among employees. I don’t know about your background, but it’s a very personal topic for me. I can probably match any non-Rwandan on this site in terms of family members lost to genocide. I don’t see how a company can be held responsible for such things if they’re not on company time though.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                I don’t know about your background, but it’s a very personal topic for me.

                It’s very personal to me, too, as I’m Jewish, and I’ve generally been freaked the heck out by an upsurge in anti-semitism that I’ve encountered not only online, but offline as well.

                And I don’t recall discussing this matter with you before, but it’s come up several times with other commenters, and the, “Hey, that employee is a anti-semite and you have a moral obligation to deal with it,” has been a common theme.Report

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

                Recently? I’ve been thinking about it, and I remember your name, but I don’t think you’ve been a regular commenter here for years. I don’t comment on every thread, but I check out most of them, and I don’t recall this as a recent theme.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                Recently?

                Oh yeah, it was just a couple… it was 4 years ago and how did 4 years pass without me noticing and good grief

                Like yeah I definitely find your stated position very problematic but my availability heuristic is screwing me up here and that’s not on you or OT at large at allReport

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

                Thanks for your candor. I was thinking I hadn’t missed that many threads, but four years, that’d be…70 billion comments ago.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                So you think all the Capitol insurrectionists from last year don’t deserve to be fired, much less prosecuted, since according to the GOP they were engaged in – checks notes – patriotic political discourse?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I wouldn’t fire an Antifa employee.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                Would you fire a KKK employee?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                No, why would I?

                (Not a rhetorical question. I’m trying to piece together why I would and I’m not coming up with anything.)Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                so you’d be ok with a person who belongs to a white nationalist organization, which openly espouses and pursues policies designed to actively oppress non-white citizens, remaining employed if he or she openly advocated that position while at work? You see no societal detriment to that person having both a platform and employment to support them?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                What do you mean by “while at work”? In this whole sub-thread starting with my reply to Kazzy at March 24, 2022 at 9:20 am, I’ve been emphatic about the distinction between work time and private time. I don’t think a company should be held accountable for its employees personal views. As an employer, I’d be hard pressed to justify firing an employee based on his personal views. I think that perpetuating this cycle would do more damage to society than keeping him at work. If I read Slade the Leveler’s bike repairman story correctly, that bike repairman does bad work by being obnoxious during work hours, and that’s something an employer is responsible for.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

                Oh, they deserve to go to jail if they broke the law.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Pinky says:

                There’s a bike shop very near to my house that I stopped patronizing because the head mechanic is a condescending a-hole. I have no compunction telling people about my experience, and have done so.

                I fail to see how letting someone know about one’s direct experience with a negative interaction in a place of business is against some sort of speech code.Report

              • InMD in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                I don’t think that’s wrong. I think historically it’d be a pretty normal thing when it was spread by word of mouth. I think the question is whether that is the same as a social media campaign demanding a secondary boycott from major clients, suppliers, credit card companies, etc.

                And I’m not saying that should be illegal (I don’t think it can be) or even that it would be wrong in all circumstances. It may be right in many. But I think it is a novel quandary deserving of a bit more consideration than telling your neighbor over beers that the guy with the place on 6th street sucks.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                If it’s bad behaviour on company time, it’s part of the package you’re paying for. I’d have no problem avoiding a place like that, nor with telling others.Report

              • It seems the anti-shaming/shunning argument is, effectively, that it is OK for you to not patronize a business because the owner is an asshole, but if you put it on social media and a bunch of other people choose to not patronize the business because of what you say, then there’s a free speech issue. Which suggests that your “speech,” as the potential patron, should be entirely private, and not affect the speech of any other potential patrons, who are in turn free to decide for themselves individually based entirely on the owner’s speech whether they want to patronize the shop, but can’t base that decision on your speech or anyone else’s aside from the owner’s.

                It’s ridiculous, but it’s hard to make the claim that “shaming/shunning” are bad for free speech without running into immediate contradictions.

                Of course, you could argue that we should be very careful whom we shame/shun, for what reasons, in what ways, and to what extent, and all of that should be the subject of public dialogue in whatever spaces we’re operating, but that’s not what the anti-shaming/shunning people are arguing (as can be easily seen in the NYT piece or the comments here).Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                Do you concede the reasonableness of the sentiment expressed in your last paragraph though, minus the NYT criticism? While this often comes up in a free speech or political context I think a major underlying driver is the fear people have of getting caught in a really bad moment and being forever destroyed over it by implacable private actors.

                I think about, for example, the ‘Racist Dog Walking Karen’/Black Bird Watcher incident where by the end even the actual victim of her indisputably bad behavior was saying that people were going way too far.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                Said as much elsewhere in this comment section.

                I don’t think many people disagree with this, in fact, and the only people who act as though they disagree with it are the “free speech absolutists” and others who complain about “cancel culture.”Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                Fair enough then.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Chris says:

                The problem isn’t free speech.

                The problem is this new technology-enabled weaponization of mobs.

                Speech, per se, is only sometimes the catalyst.

                We have tools unleashed on society that we have not yet figured out how to operate – nor proportionately react to.

                We are living through an ugly transition period – and I have to believe, this will be managed differently in time.

                The current dynamic is unsustainable.Report

              • Chris in reply to John Puccio says:

                I agree 100% that social media in particular creates all sorts of new issues for speech, and we’re still trying to figure out how to resolve those issues without suppressing speech (or, in the case of the anti-cancel culture folks, explicitly by calling for the suppression of certain kinds of speech). I don’t know that anyone has a good answer for how to resolve all the contradictions that arise when speech is as easily amplified as it is on the internet today. I know I don’t. I’m pretty sure the “free speech absolutists” have some of the worst answers possible, though.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Chris says:

                This is the epitome of a first world problem.

                It will only be resolved when society learns to react differently. That only happens when we reach a tipping point and collectively begin to stop ceding power to tech mob tactics OR times get really tough (war, depression) and people are forced to refocus on things that actually matter.

                If we are waiting for the tools to be used differently, that just won’t happen. As long as power can be leveraged, it will be.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Chris says:

                “Of course, you could argue that we should be very careful whom we shame/shun, for what reasons, in what ways, and to what extent, and all of that should be the subject of public dialogue in whatever spaces we’re operating, but that’s not what the anti-shaming/shunning people are arguing (as can be easily seen in the NYT piece or the comments here).”

                Well said.

                The two sides are not “anti-shaming/shunning” and “pro-shaming/shunning” with the latter wanting all shaming and shunning all the side.

                It is folks who want (or claim to want… HT Pillsy) no shaming or shunning ever and folks who think it should be reserved for when needed.

                “When needed” will be the devil’s details.

                And if no one is actually arguing that we should somehow ban shaming and shunning (in the name of free speech! Irony is dead…) than really all we are arguing about is “When is shaming/shunning appropriate?” and we’re never going to agree on that so why bother?Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                “It is folks who want (or claim to want… HT Pillsy) no shaming or shunning ever”

                There’s not really anything we can do about “shaming and shunning”, but that’s not what’s going on here.

                Like, Joe in Boston says that gender is biological, and then people tell themselves it’s “shaming and shunning” as they stand outside the front door of a Joe’s Employer franchise in Seattle and start yelling at customers trying to go in, they tell themselves it’s “shaming and shunning” as Joe’s wife’s books suddenly get four thousand one-star reviews on Amazon because She Deserves It For Marrying A TERF, they tell themselves it’s “shaming and shunning” and private entities making an entirely-private decision to not associate with certain individuals for their own private reasons as Joe is banned from using telecoms services or credit cards.

                Like, you wanna not hang out with Joe, fine. You wanna tell people not to hang out with Joe, also fine. You wanna normalize the idea that uninvolved persons from all over the planet can come into Joe’s life and fuck it up, maybe that’s not fine?

                And yeah, yeah, “well I don’t mean that“, right, I’m sure you tell yourself you don’t, but when a white woman calls the cops on a black man and everyone agrees that she’s just trying to get him shot because That Bitch Knows What’s Gonna Happen, what do you think is gonna happen when you hang someone on the wall and say “look at this asshole, sure would be unfortunate if a bunch of people, hnn-hnn, shamed and shunned him!”Report

              • pillsy in reply to DensityDuck says:

                You wanna normalize the idea that uninvolved persons from all over the planet can come into Joe’s life and fuck it up, maybe that’s not fine?

                Yeah that’s definitely not fine.

                People should definitely not do it.

                I’d even go so far as to say that people should take reasonable steps to prevent other people from doing it.

                But in order to discuss that and reach some measure of agreement on its not-fineness, and what to do about that not-fineness, I think it’s important to actually maybe narrow down what we’re describing a little more than just “shunning and shaming”.

                And ultimately we’re going to have to bring in this “discretion” that prompted Burt’s post all the way up at the top.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Jesse says:

      At will employment is a version of freedom to association. The boss has a right to associated and not associate with who they want. In most states, an employee can be fired for virtually any reason. Fired employees can sue for discriminatory firing, but those cases are rarely won because proof is hard to come by.Report

      • ?Damon in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        Most employers (large) are smart enough to go through the several months of “performance improvement” to fire you. Regardless of what you do, it’s never quite enough to get you off your improvement plan and you’re let go, often with a nice severance package. Then they back hire some guy who makes half to 75% of what you did. It’s easy to spot when you’ve seen it before. This way employers are covered legally, especially if you sign an agreement to get that severance package, which most people will do since they don’t have much savings to live through months of unemployment.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to ?Damon says:

          No, I had a supervisor who tried to fire me for months and made my life a living Hell to accomplish that. It didn’t work, but she faced no consequences for it. I simply moved to a better department at the same wage.Report

  25. pillsy says:

    I want to just note this fantastic analogy and comment from @Oscar Gordon:

    Yes & to expand on that, I think there are some pretty distinct layers to the whole Cancelation thing, like laminar flow. Normal people are down near the wall and not likely to experience anything in the way of Cancelation (doesn’t mean it can’t happen, just highly unlikely, and in those cases, the proportionality is often out of whack). The more public your profile, the higher up in the flow you are and the more likely things can get… turbulent.

    For real I can get pretty grumpy in the comments here (including with Oscar), but stuff like this makes them worth it dozens of times over, I’ll be using this analogy myself in the future, and I would be delighted to read a full-length post expanding on it at length.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

      Perhaps if I have time int he next few weeks.

      And don’t worry Pillsy, I never take your grumpiness personally.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

      Outsiders getting cancelled, especially those with no public profile, leads to career destruction with no recourse. An insider can get fired like Toobin for something genuinely awful and get hired somewhere else for millions or hundreds of thousands without batting an eye.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

      @pillsy
      Thinking about this… I’m out of town this weekend, but if you don’t see something by April 1st, poke me.Report

  26. Jaybird says:

    Something vaguely relevant that I stumbled across.

    Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

      Is this more relevant than principals and school boards actually removing books?Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Well, if folks are OK with removing books from a library, it’s not surprising when they don’t get out the torches & pitchforks when leaders remove books from a library.Report

      • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Dude, people in power banning things is OK, but a minority of college students at a European university who responded to a survey stating they are OK with an unspecified level of banning certain books on unspecified criteria is pretty much the end of American liberty as we know it.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Chris says:

          I talked elsewhere about how much of my skepticism of the “cancel culture” moral panic is driven by the way coprophages like Milo Y have been treated by Rightward and MSM commentator, but it’s not all of it.

          From the earliest, this has been pretty obviously had a strong component of power worship and anger that the Youth just don’t respect their elders and betters. One of the earliest “controversies” was people being mad that Rutgers students would hav the absolute gall to not want to be addressed Condoleezza Rice during commencement.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Jaybird says:

      Not good at all.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

      Re-framed: Two thirds of students at a leftist social science German university oppose book bans.

      Does Germany have a tradition of a Constitutional right to free speech?

      Isn’t Holocaust denialism illegal there?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

        Re-framed: Two thirds of students at a leftist social science German university oppose book bans.

        I remember something that Trumwill said back in 2015 or 2016.

        If your group of five people votes on dinner and three vote “pizza” and two vote “cannibalism”, you still have a problem even if pizza won.

        Now, I suppose I should have looked harder into “is this 1/3rd a number that is going up after a while or is it a number that is going down after a while?”

        Because 1/3rd and going down is good actually.

        1/3rd and going up doesn’t make me feel good about “but 2/3rds don’t!”Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

          You should probably have lucked harder into the study as a whole.

          Again, this was conducted in Germany and with a carefully selected population that the authors thought would give them the BEST chance of finding evidence of left-leaning censorship. And, they found it.

          You would have also seen that the 1/3 number was specifically in response to an author who thinks that homosexuality is immoral and dangerous. The response was lower (22%, 19%, 26%) based on other “controversial topics” (Islam is incompatible with Western life; there are biological differences in talent between me and women; anti-immigration of any kind, respectively).

          So, yea, I don’t like the idea of banning any books or authors from a library. So I don’t like that anyone is supporting the idea.

          But that 1/3 of German college students who were self-selected for their leftishness and the likelihood of them supporting speech restrictions said they’d be okay with removing books by someone who believes homosexuality is immoral and dangerous… well, I don’t like that but I’m also not going to consider it particularly useful in a discussion about shaming and shunning in America.Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

            Depends on the age of the people who use the library. I don’t think Hustler should be in an elementary school library, for instance. As long as the government isn’t banning the books, the issue here is freedom of association. A library gets to choose what books it contains as a general rule. You might not like it, but that’s the choice of the people running the library.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              Most real flashpoint fights over library books involve public school libraries, where it isn’t a simple matter of saying the government isn’t involved because they’re literally running the library.

              I have no idea what the actual First Amendment implications are. I’ve been sorta curious for a long time but not curious enough to figure out how.

              Anyway, back in HS they were getting rid of a bunch of old books from the high school library and let students pick out any ones that we wanted. I walked away with a book from the sixties published by (I think) the DOD on the effects of nuclear weapons. Inside was a pocket for a circular slide rule that where you could input yield and distance from ground zero and it would give useful information like how deep the glass fragments would be driven into human flesh by the blast.

              I have no strong opinion about the value of such a book in a HS library overall, but it was a beautiful addition to the personal library of a nerdy proto-edgelord.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                Does the government get a say in something it pays for? Answer that one before we continue.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                It depends!Report

              • pillsy in reply to pillsy says:

                I really actually care about the law as it stands now, not what it should be based on some abstract reasoning of first principals.

                Since this is factual question, the best way to get accurate information is to boldly state something wrong about it.

                :spits on hands:

                The Supreme Court has ruled that public school libraries are obligated to put any book any citizen brings to them on their shelves! I finally know what to do with my 17 volume collection of Esperanto limericks!Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                I think elected officials in cities and states have oversight over public schools. Only public schools. Private schools are separate for a reason. School choice is something I am a massive proponent for (and a vast majority of the country is as well.)Report

    • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

      What’s the base rate? Because my knee jerk is “Only a third? That’s very good news for free speech on college campuses!”Report

  27. Chip Daniels says:

    What I find incomprehensible is the laser like, obsessive fixation on university students and behavior that is largely without consequence, and the complete indifference to actual book banning and suppression of speech at the primary school level.

    Can anyone here explain this?Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      They seem completely different to me. On one hand, adults are establishing the terms for education of children. On the other, near-adults are opposing their own education.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        Yes, the adults are setting the terms of education for the children.

        Read the article, and where ever it says “removing books with LGBTQ themes”, replace LGBTQ with “Christian”.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Again, if the citizenry has a tolerance for removing such from the library, then that will happen.

          How many people in this very post have expressed that it is just fine for the public to shame/shun/censor content they find offensive? If that is acceptable, if the free speech absolutist position is a fantasy, then it is just fine that the public censor content they find objectionable for their children.

          You can’t have it both ways.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            “Same/shun”? Lots. “Censor”? As far as I can tell, noneReport

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to CJColucci says:

              If it is acceptable for the public to silence a speaker, that is censorship.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                What are the mechanisms by which the public can silence someone?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                I guess that depends on what you consider censorship?

                Is pulling Maus from the school library censorship? If yes, then I would argue that using noise/disruption to drown out a speaker at a public or private forum is also censorship.

                If pulling Maus is merely curating the collection, because Maus is still available at the book store, or another library, then disrupting a public speaking is just protest.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                So the Patriot Guard Riders were engaged in censorship?

                Like you may be right and I see how you get there, but if so you’ve diluted “censorship” to the point where sizable majorities of people are going to support it.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                I don’t consider pulling books to be censorship (a bad idea, certainly!). Nor do I consider counter-protests to be censorship.

                Going back to the Hastings thing, had the students held a protest in front of the doors to Shapiro’s lecture, I’d be A-OK with that. Hell, I’d happily support it. The only difference is that Shapiro wasn’t try to talk on the Quad, he was in a closed hall.

                Time, manner, place, and all that.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                This is where speaking about these things in a vacuum makes no sense.

                Intent matters, patterns matter, a lot.

                For example, pulling The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe because kids don’t find it interesting is one thing and not censorship;

                Saying “I’m not going to allow any books by Christian authors” is entirely different and is very much censorship.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Here’s my question: We keep talking about people’s right to speak, but…I’ve never been invited to speak at a university. Do I not have that right?

                This is sorta the ‘money is speech, so the wealthy have all the speech’ problem, except being done with other people’s money. Student’s money, in fact.

                Maybe we should ask why universities allow clubs to invite speakers at all? Why is this a thing at a university?

                Because everyone else is having to stand on the quad.Report

              • pillsy in reply to DavidTC says:

                Yeah it’s not people’s rights to speak at universities, it’s student groups’ rights to invite speakers that are at stake.[1]

                Keeping track of this is really important, IMO, because it really does a lot to clarify what’s going on and when (IMO) it’s morally justified for students to shout down speakers.[2]

                The answer is, “Very rarely,” but it is not, “Never.”

                Like should they have done that to Shapiro? No he’s just a boring racist wingnut who didn’t slather enough smarm onto some boring racist Tweets.

                But like that Milo guy? He would just stand up at schools he was invited to speak at to straight up harass random trans students by name and photo in gross bigoted ways.

                This is at least as far outside the norms that govern academic discourse and debate as heckling a speaker into silence.

                Eventually Milo was canceled by the Right for defending pedophilia[3], and people stopped talking about him so much.

                Just one of the worst actors in the Culture War, and the general reaction of him during his brief and obnoxious period of relevance did as much as anything else to make me stop caring about “conservatives being silenced on college campuses” or whatever.

                [1] In the case of public universities there really are rights involved, and at private universities there are some pretty strong norms in favor.

                [2] Oh it’ll still be against the rules or whatever but occasionally “Fish the rules!” is the right response.

                [3] The amazing thing is not that the Right canceled someone, but that they canceled one of their own for a good reason!Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                I believe there’s a SCOTUS case about this, from my Alma Mater. Southworth vs Wisconsin. It rules that student fees could be collected and used to fund student groups that others disagree with.

                Those fees, when a campus collects them (& I think many do), are.largely how student groups pay for invited speakers.

                As for Hastings, it’s a public school, the bar for refusing to allow a speaker is higher than a private school. Especially when the student group is only asking to borrow a lecture hall.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Yeah. Overall I think the model is fine but it does encourage a certain kind of trolly dick to bring speakers in to be trolly and dickish.

                Another thing that of bugs me about the way this discourse goes (and this is a persistent hobby horse that I’m sure you’ve heard before) is viewing student reactions through the lens of “they just can’t handle dissenting views” when the actual scenario is very often “they just can’t handle people deliberately trying to piss them off”.

                It’s not that they shouldn’t learn to handle both, it’s just that they’re different skills and they need to be addressed and promoted and taught in different ways, and to be blunt, deliberately trying to piss people off when you present views they disagree with is an extremely good way to teach neither.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                And thanks to media constantly stirring things up, school leadership gets gunshy about teaching students how to not feed the trolls.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to pillsy says:

                Yeah. Overall I think the model is fine but it does encourage a certain kind of trolly dick to bring speakers in to be trolly and dickish.

                Timing suggests this is how Shapiro got picked.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I believe there’s a SCOTUS case about this, from my Alma Mater. Southworth vs Wisconsin. It rules that student fees could be collected and used to fund student groups that others disagree with.

                Those fees, when a campus collects them (& I think many do), are.largely how student groups pay for invited speakers.

                Student groups paying speakers isn’t really my concern, although I do wish that schools made a difference between ‘general club student groups’ and ‘advocacy student groups’. Just because the SCOTUS _allows_ it (and I don’t really disagree with that.), doesn’t mean the school should go along with it, and it would be entirely reasonable for a school to say the groups get funded differently.

                But, again, not really my concern.

                As for Hastings, it’s a public school, the bar for refusing to allow a speaker is higher than a private school. Especially when the student group is only asking to borrow a lecture hall.

                No, they’re also asking to borrow the schools administrative punishment.

                They’re not just wandering off with a lecture hall like it’s a podium and light system they borrowed.

                They are holding an event _on campus_ where the people holding it insist campus rules still apply. They want to punish students who disrupted it, not using the law (Because going to an event and disrupting it and then leaving when asked isn’t really ‘illegal’.) but by using the student code of behavior.

                At a place they have borrowed and imposed their own rules on. But they still want it to be part of campus for the enforcement of rules against student behavior.

                There you go, there’s the compromise: If a group wants to borrow a damn lecture hall, sure. And they should be aware the entire thing will be treated exactly like they rented a county-owned auditorium, and as far as the school is concerned, it literally isn’t part of their campus during that time, and thus what students do during it is not their concern in any way.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Here’s the thing about the heckler’s veto: You may not like it, but it’s legal in public.

                If there are five of you you can stand there and shout over one person all you want. If there are five hundred of you, you can possibly shout over people inside a building. You can shout at people going to listen to people.

                You can shout basically anywhere you want. Is this good? I don’t know, there are some places where I have serious problems with it.(1) But it is _legal_.

                Setting up a system where _only students_ get punished for a heckler’s veto (Because it’s barred under school rules) is literally the opposite of protecting free speech at universities.

                1) I mostly have no concerns about a heckler’s veto when money is currently buying huge megaphones that blare directly into people’s homes and a single ad on TV overpowers the voice of thousands of people. A heckler’s veto is not the way the system is broken, as the platform that people are given for speech is already so absurdly unbalanced it means nothing. My concern about shouting is more ‘constant harassment’, not heckler’s veto.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                To your second footnote, where students are willing to take their lumps I can certainly respect that even if I disagree in principle. Like if someone feels so strongly about a speaker that they’re willing to eat a suspension for (metaphorically) blowing up the engagement then more power to them. That’s an adult decision and facing the consequences shows character.

                However I don’t see any honor or accolades due when the administration is semi in on the disruption and/or the students get to go right back to the dorm for beers, bong hits, and gratuitous self-congratulation.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                I think ultimately relying on the administration to be part of any meaningful effort to address this stuff is not going to work. Every incentive they’ve got points elsewhere.

                And being semi-in on it may not be praiseworthy, but it’s actually an extremely natural consequence of the incentives they face when they’re obligated to host sufficiently noxious speakers. And while the students may not deserve much credit in those circumstances, it’s pretty hard to put much force into a condemnation of it either, and for pretty much the same reason.

                Preventing these kinds of messes from happening–regardless of the precise contours of the mess–is going to have to come from elsewhere on, around, or even off campus. If the administration isn’t useless or actively making things worse, that’s a wonderful stroke of luck, not something to rely on.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to pillsy says:

                Ideally, someone would owe money to whatever group spent money to invite the speaker.

                How that happens?

                Perhaps the incentive is on the school. If a student group invites a speaker, and the speech is disrupted, then the school reimburses the group. That way, if the school is going to not enforce any kind of decorum, they can eat the cost.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                If you push too hard in that direction, you’ll just end up with the administration deciding that @DavidTC’s route is the right one, and decide the baby isn’t worth keeping all that bathwater around for.

                It’s not that hard to make the case that students shouldn’t feed the trolls like Milo, or should just ignore boring low-value speakers like Shapiro who were brought in to troll them.

                But as I said above, the case would need to be made by people they respect in ways that do not hedge or hem and haw about what’s going on.

                Various involved people–especially administrators, but also media figures and even faculty who wring their hands over the way the students behave–have strong incentives not to do that.

                Which is fine. They can follow those incentives, and not solve the problem. But if they don’t well it must not be that big a problem.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Why is it the job of a public institution to ‘enforce decorum’ WRT non-school events? How does that make any sense?

                And what sort of absurd victim-blaming is this? The school freely provides an auditorium, and then people bitch and complain that it wasn’t provided in exactly the manner requested because the people freely providing the thing didn’t freely provide enough security?

                Do you people even hear yourself?

                Maybe take a step back and actually look at each individual entity in this thing and what its duties and responsibilities are. Because you’re demanding the university do a _lot_ of stuff for free, including using powers of discipline that infringe on student’s free speech that it only is supposed to use to keep order within an education setting, aka, not a thing that is happening here.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            Of corse we can.

            We can suppress libelous speech or books inappropriate for middle schoolers, without allowing a ban on books by LGBTQ or Christian authors.

            Allowing Catcher In The Rye doesn’t compel us to allow Mein Kampf.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              “… books inappropriate for middle schoolers…”

              That is doing a lot of work in your argument. You may feel that LGBTQ or Christian authors are appropriate for middle school kids, but others may disagree.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            “The public” is not really a thing. A bunch of people getting angry at someone on Twitter and that person choosing to delete their account is a bunch of people getting angry on Twitter.

            If that same group of people marched into a library and starting pulling books of shelves… that is a very different thing.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

              If the school board pulls books from school libraries and the public does not eagerly and aggressively recall or vote them out, then the majority is clearly OK with it.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Because upper middle class professionals who make up the main readership for prestige journalism, and increasingly dominate the journalistic profession itself, went to these schools, and have kids at these schools or want their kids at these schools.

      This is also why minor spats at Yale or Wesleyan get more attention than legitimately bad and worrisome shit at schools like the University of Missouri.Report

  28. Kazzy says:

    Just out of curiosity… was recalling the SF BOE members because of their radical wokeism or whatever a form of shaming and shunning that we should push back upon?Report

  29. Chip Daniels says:

    Sure.
    And what would a liberal tolerant society do?Report

  30. pillsy says:

    Pulling this @InMD comment out of right field.

    But I think it is a novel quandary deserving of a bit more consideration than telling your neighbor over beers that the guy with the place on 6th street sucks.

    It’s the flip side of the billboard thing.

    Like, is putting a billboard with your hilarious racist joke and signing your name on it a phenomenally stupid thing to do?

    Yes.

    Is taking out a full page ad in the NYT saying that Bob the barista at Joe’s Joe Shack is a raving anti-semite weird and obsessive?

    Well, also, yes.

    And the mechanics of social media virality mean that you could reach as many people with your tweet about Bob’s raving anti-semitism as you would with that Times ad.

    Anyway, for all that I’m extremely defensive of being able to say true shit about awful people, both on and offline, I’m pretty hesitant to RT stuff like “Bob the barista’s a Nazi chud” because… like… fuck Bob the barista but also who the fuck is Bob the barista?[1]

    It’s not the sharing. It’s the re-sharing.

    [1] I’m sure I’ve done it because the other thing about social media is its designed to make you care about Bob the barista and working to get all your friends to care about Bob the barista too.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

      The piling-on… which in my limited understanding Twitter is REALLY good for… is very problematic.

      My brother is a pretty toxic person. We have always a bad-ish relationship. He’s had challenging relationships with the rest of the family but generally was on better terms with them.

      At one point, he crossed a red line with me and that was it. But… that was between me and him. As shitty as he was to me (and, by extension, my kids) that was between us. I reached out to the fam and informed them that at present time and until further notice he and I were not on speaking terms and asked that they not have my sons around him when the boys were with them. I said I didn’t wanna share details because the beef was ours and if they were on good terms, they should remain so. I didn’t want to pile on… I just wanted to secure me and mine.

      Of course, the ass hat went and bragged about what he did thinking he’d gain sympathy and outed himself as the ass hat he was. Karma, I suppose.

      Piling on for objectionable ideas is rarely proportional.

      I can see it being appropriate when misbehavior shifts towards actions, but only if it involves people directly involved… e.g., Jill shares that Bob the Boss groped her and other employees who experienced similar come forward with their stories.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

        Just a bit more on this: the more you’re piling on, the less likely you are to be acting in a reasonable way along two important axes of “reasonableness” at play in this context:

        1. You are less likely to be acting based on an actual judgement of the target’s badness and more likely to by going for clout or a dopamine hit

        2. You are further removed from the original incident and an ability to assess the credibility of the people raising the complaint

        That’s not a categorical rule and there are other factors but if we’re looking for legitimately useful norms or heuristics, “don’t pile on” is probably a good place to start.Report

    • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

      Back when Milo Yianapo-whatever was the guy getting run out of speaking engagements I did not think as much of it. I believe it was wrong in principle to do that to him, and still do, but how much sympathy can you really muster for a man getting exactly what he wants? My annoyance was more at the lefty students for taking the bait and giving Fox News another segment of liberals behaving badly. So you’ve got the provocateurs out there living and dying by the sword.

      Beyond them my belief is that most of the really nasty actors are either self-marginalizing (think Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols ideological types) or under deep cover like the guy Oscar mentioned he used to work with.

      Next you have a range of mean, dumb people that nurse some prejudice(s) and are truly unpleasant but probably not much of a threat to anyone not directly in their path. So a warning is fair to someone likely to encounter them but really isn’t warranted to people in another county much less another time zone.

      Finally you have generally good people who have screwed up in small ways that should be easily forgiven or just ignored, and those who have just plain been unfairly targeted for no justifiable reason at all.

      Each one of these I think probably merits very different approaches. And yet all we have is stratrgic nukes and people pushing each other towards the worst of human instincts. All of which is to say, I agree with you.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

        “ Each one of these I think probably merits very different approaches. And yet all we have is stratrgic nukes and people pushing each other towards the worst of human instincts. All of which is to say, I agree with you.”

        Yes… if we focus on highly viral incidents.

        Many of us have shared moments that made us go “Oof” but in which no one was cancelled.

        We should acknowledge where and when non-nuclear tactics are employed.Report

        • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

          Also true, there is definitely a crapshoot element. A lot of the time nothing happens or fallout is minor or proportional. I am still not sure how much credit I think we (in the royal sense) should give ourselves for that.Report

  31. Philip H says:

    Apropos of nothing, I’m Sure:

    Writing for the court, Justice Neil Gorsuch said: “A reprimand, no matter how strongly worded, does not materially impair freedom of speech,” especially when “the censure at issue before us was a form of speech” by the other elected representatives on the board.

    Gorsuch noted that elected bodies in the U.S. have long exercised the power to censure their members. Members of Congress have long been censured by their fellow members for matters ranging from unethical conduct to “insulting…the Speaker.”

    In modern times, the Supreme Court has ruled that Congress, as well as state legislatures, may not refuse to seat a duly elected representative, but as the court noted on Thursday, “the power to exclude and the power to issue other, lesser forms of discipline are not fungible under our constitution.”

    Instead, as the court put it, “argument and counterargument, not litigation, are the weapons available for resolving this dispute.”

    https://www.npr.org/2022/03/24/1088670531/supreme-court-upholds-right-to-censure-in-case-of-obstreperous-school-board-membReport

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

      But this only goes one way, doesn’t it? Because your side is never wrong, right?Report

    • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

      There’s nothing in that article indicating that ideological politics was involved in the dispute. I’d also wager that you agree with Gorsuch that a school board has the right to censure a member. So this really was apropos of nothing, right?Report

  32. DensityDuck says:

    “We should improve the cultural norms around holding people accountable for views we find troubling somewhat.”
    “And yet you think we should hold people accountable for views we find troubling! Curious! I am very intelligent.”Report

  33. pillsy says:

    This isn’t “cancel culture” because it’s a Republican AG picking (again) on LGBT kids, and Republicans believe that this is just how things be:

    Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton wrote a letter to the Austin Independent School District superintendent Tuesday, condemning the district’s “Pride Week” events.

    Paxton wrote in the letter the lesson plans deal head-on with sexual orientation and gender identity, topics that are “unmistakably” human sexuality instruction and are “governed by state law.”

    The insistence that dealing with sexual orientation and gender identity is just sex, sex, sex is low key homophobic and transphobic, and it turns into high key screeching bigotry when you cast it as predatory “grooming”, which is the position of FL’s governor and the inexplicably Rightwardly respectable Christopher Rufo (and any number of rodeo clown D-listers and GOP state reps).Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

      Involving children under the age of 10 in Pride stuff is creepy to basically everyone. And I fear you think you’re not in the minority here.Report

    • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

      Did the definition of cancel culture used to include all regulations? If not, then there was a goalpost shift. But Russell may have shifted the goalposts himself, as well. We need to know what the Austin School District’s Pride Week events were to include.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

        All regulations?

        Nyah.

        Government action taken on the grounds that, “Hey we’re the government and what we say about expression on government property and at government expense goes?”

        Oh very much yes. Many times, and in many contexts.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

          That doesn’t say much about the content of the events. I watched a YouTube of last year’s guest speaker and it was bland, so I don’t really have any additional insights about it. I can’t imagine a Pride Week that I’d be ok with, but I’d guess (hope) that there’s a difference between what Russell pictures a Pride event as and what a school system would do.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            This is straight outta Haidt.

            I can’t pinpoint the harm, but still oppose it.

            This isn’t an attack, because we all have those sorts of reactions. I’m that way with groups like the Proud Boys. (Do they have a Pride Week?)

            But we should acknowledge our intuitions instead of inventing spurious reasons.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              not in the Overton Window: “maybe men get a harder deal than previously thought”
              in the Overton Window: “let’s all get together and just shit on this one commentor”Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              I get that it’s more of an attack on Russell. I’m being critical of him as well. But your reference to Haidt doesn’t make sense.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                I referenced the part in the Righteous Mind where he posed examples of non-harmful taboos, like adult incest.
                And even very liberal people squirmed and opposed it even if they couldn’t pinpoint the harm.

                His point was that our moral foundations are as much intuition as objective reason.Report

  34. If Vlad Putin says cancel culture is real, I’m convinced.Report