An Interesting Development in the San Francisco School Board

Jaybird

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261 Responses

  1. If it was a vote against school board that was more interested in performative displays than actually doing the job a school board is elected to do, we can only hope that Texas and Florida follow suit.Report

  2. InMD says:

    To me this is really the correction that needs to happen, not the foolish statutes. Vote people like this out of office with extreme prejudice. Make sure it’s good and embarrassing for them too. Sue school systems for racist DEI. Oppose teachers unions everywhere. All of these things are antithetical to the critical service public schools provide.

    I think the big take away from the Mother Jones article is that you can either engage in wok- er ‘performative radicalism’ or you can do your job. People who do the former should be considered inherently incompetent for public service at any level. Hopefully this happens everywhere.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to InMD says:

      “I think the big take away from the Mother Jones article is that you can either engage in wok- er ‘performative radicalism’ or you can do your job.”

      I’m not sure these 2 are in mutual opposition. That said, we don’t see a lot of the former in public institutions in this country, so it’s kind of hard to put the proposition to the test.Report

  3. Damon says:

    “much less right-leaning magazine like Mother Jones.” That made me snort.Report

  4. Philip H says:

    So first – good solid analysis and clearly written article. I’ll take more of this Jaybird please.

    Second, both of those analyses miss a larger point, which InMD sort of hints at – school boards are one of the few elected bodies in America whose members have to listen directly to their constituents. So its a great place to vent a lot of frustration at, whether its deserved or not. Once you get above the county or parish level, the connection is much less direct, and so its how you get Republican politicians ignoring their base for 40 plus years and suddenly being beholden to Trump because the base is done being ignored. We will see more of this, but contra InMD, it won’t stop the insane legislation that is running the traps in Texas, Florida, and elsewhere.Report

    • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

      It won’t stop those already in progress, most of which I think are eventually destined to be hollowed out by the courts. But hoisting out buffoons who call Asian parents racist names and act as if renaming schools or eliminating merit is going to help the literacy rates or math scores of black and hispanic students is a good in itself. I celebrate it. I think anyone who wants America to be a place of academic excellence should.Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    This is not the big deal that everyone seems to be making it out to be. San Francisco is still a Democratic city. The three members of the school board were recalled because they were interested in performative politics over practical administration.

    I don’t think there is anything inherently bad in renaming schools but the process used by the school board was factually incorrect and embarrassing. Plus deciding that schools named after George Washington , Abraham Lincoln, and Paul Revere need to be renamed is dense. When everyone and their cousin pointed this out, the school board doubled down in that sweet spot between “are you really this dumb or are you being deliberately obtuse?”

    Former VP Collins had a tweet that called Asians “house n-word” and then sued the school district for 87 million when stripped of her position.

    A gay dad was denied a spot on the parents advisory council because he was white.

    This is not the rebellion against woke that you are looking for but a victory for democracy and good governance.Report

    • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Per what I said to Philip above, I think it’s exactly the kind of thing the Democratic party should get behind. Good public services, and good government. That’s not something the GOP has shown much interest in over the years. The ‘good stewards of government’ is a great mantle, there for the talkng.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      I covered this! That’s what Clara Jeffrey said!

      The New York Times isn’t helping, though. You know what their morning email is talking about?

      They’re talking about this too. The email’s headline? “Good morning. Why are liberal candidates losing elections in liberal cities?”

      The good news: The New York Times specifically talked about how Republicans do it too.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        The lesson is that people into this kind of thing, whatever we’re going to call it today, should be understood as inherently unfit for office. Being into it is a sign of not being all that bright, and probably of a willingness to do self-evidently dumb things with public money and resources.

        Does this mean there aren’t any number of other signs of different kinds of incompetence? Of course not. It does mean these people should never win a primary, and politicians who appoint them should know up front that they are doing severe damage to their electability.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

          What *I* find funny about the NYT morning email’s headline is that, if I were making a list of “the most liberal cities in America”, San Francisco would be either #1 on the list or #2 on the list. It might be fun to argue over which cities (or boroughs) would fill out 3-10, but I’m pretty sure that there’s only one Avis to San Fran’s Hertz.

          So I read the question not as “Why are liberal candidates losing elections in liberal cities?” but “why are liberal candidates losing elections in the most friggin’ liberal city in the country?!?!?!?” “What about Portland?” “Okay, fine. One of the two most friggin’ liberal cities in the country?!?!?”Report

          • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

            ‘In a blow for social justice to create sustainable equity for BIPOC the newly elected school board changed the name from Jefferson High to the Huey P. Newton Anti-Colonial Academy. In what is no doubt a sign of ongoing structural white supremacy and anti-blackness, the seniors are only able to read at a 5th grade level.’Report

            • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

              One of the fun arguments on the twitters about this came from McMegan where she argued that the school board wasn’t incompetent at all.

              They were exceptionally competent. They merely had different goals than those of their constituents. The important thing is *NOT* teaching children to read. They can do that anywhere. The schools are the only place where they would learn how to dismantle colonial oppression and the schools were doing a good job of teaching that.

              Remote or no.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

                That’s the land-mine. A little like McAuliffe in VA, he wasn’t saying anything controversial, he thought.

                But, before I go all triumphalist on this, it’s just a minor re-calibration on the long march through the institutions… nothing will change; the lesson is to remember that you own the institutions, don’t invite scrutiny.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine says:

                This is why having the kids at home was so devastating.

                Let’s say your mission is X. Sure.

                It’s somewhat easy to teach X and Y. The kids go home, they can do X, very good. They make Y noises? Well, you know, they dropped stuff off of the curriculum from when I was a kid and added stuff that wasn’t even written when I was in school. Fair enough.

                But if the mission remains X and the kids are learning Y with a side of X, that’s something that only Tiger Moms will notice.

                UNLESS THE KIDS ARE IN THE NEXT ROOM ON A ZOOM CALL FOR TWO YEARS.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

                One of those moments when you find out that your allies in the cause don’t think you’re leading the cause but are just workers doing a chore.Report

              • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

                If there really is a long march its destination is not going to be a stranglehold of power. It’s going to be the destruction of the institutions themselves. So not really a comforting outcome but also not exactly what I think people are most afraid of.

                If you want to get really nuts, I think you could make an argument for a certain kind of conservatism that pushes them right along to that end. 🙂Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

                Hmm, are you asking me *not* to see the destruction of these institutions?

                I think Public Education has been destructed… just waiting for y’all to catch-up on how to rebuild. But then, we defected 26-years ago.

                I’m not a burn it all down guy… why would I be? I’m perfectly content to make do with lesser institutions that are not destructed and try to build other lesser institutions. We should have more lesser things.Report

              • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Not at all. I just mean that for the flavor of conservatism that does want to burn it all down, the long march would be a good thing. I get that you are not that flavor of conservatism.

                I think we’re in agreement in that the real loser would/will be liberal society. I’m not particularly sanguine about what that will look like and worry none of us will be allowed to have even the lesser things. My biggest fear is a sad combination of oligarchic capitalism and mandatory debauchery that isn’t even fun.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

                In the end, even the debauchery will be synthetic and not live up to mere sin.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                It helps to remember the same people who voted to recall the board members also, at least in part, also voted to put them on the board.Report

              • From the Chronicle:

                They would all be eligible to run again in November or future elections. López and Moliga did not rule out the possibility Wednesday, while Collins did not respond to the question in her first statement since the election results were posted.

                “We now know what it costs to buy an election in San Francisco,” she said, in a statement, referring to the nearly $2 million raised in the pro-recall effort.

                I’m not the one that needs help remembering that.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                Really, no one outside San Francisco does.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    FWIW, I do not think school boards should be elected positions. They tend to be ground zero for zealots, cranks, and nuts. They should be civil service appointments based on credentials.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      I’d say yes, with one caveat – it should be subject to ‘recall’, in that the public should be able to gather signatures and vote to oust a member (basically a public demand that the appointing body fire the member). Being appointed is not a shield against incompetence or nuttery, since a nutty appointing official can still stack the board with fellow nuts.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Who would be doing the appointing?

      Another interesting thing that I saw from the Chronicle’s article: “Collins, López and Moliga are the first elected officials in the city to be recalled in recent memory. The last time a recall effort made it to the ballot was in 1983, in a failed attempt to remove then-Mayor Dianne Feinstein from office.”

      However zealoty, cranky, and nutty the school board has been for the last 40 years, it hasn’t been *THIS* bad.

      And if “bad” isn’t to your taste, how’s about “out of step with the community”?Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Jaybird says:

        The mayor or some kind of advisory board. We don’t elect the Secretary of State or Defense, do we?Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Jaybird says:

        More seriously, judges to the superior court are appointed by the governor but there is an elaborate application and vetting process. Applicants need to have at least ten years of experience as a lawyer. I believe they need to show they have trial experience to from voir dire to closing argument at least. Possibly even judgment. They are appointed to ten year terms and then have retention elections.

        I think that could be a good compromise. Develop qualifications as a teacher, education administrator, policy person, or academic, fill out an application and get vetted by a civil service board, get approved by the mayor and/or city/county council on a simple majority, and have a position for ten years with a retention election to follow.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          That would put the Mayor in the same orbit as the Superintendent.

          I admit: I have no idea how much interaction those two people have in Colorado Springs.

          Holy cow. There’s an entire wikipedia page dedicated to this.

          Okay, there are *NINE* cites that do this:
          Jackson, Mississippi
          Boston, Massachusetts
          Chicago, Illinois
          Baltimore, Maryland
          Cleveland, Ohio
          Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
          New York City
          Providence, Rhode Island
          District of Columbia

          I look at the list and I can’t help but think that mayoral control is what happens after the schools have failed.Report

    • You just described the House of Representatives.Report

  7. Jaybird says:

    Another point that I didn’t know how to work in because it felt too much like commentary: These three people are the only three people who were eligible for a recall.

    Which tells me that the only reason that there were not four recalls (or more) is because no one else on the board was eligible to be recalled.

    But, you know, I can’t *PROVE* that.Report

  8. Pinky says:

    I think the Big Conversation, and the small version of it that we have here, has seen the identity left losing support as they’ve gone too far over their skis. The median may still be moving in its direction (I’m not sure), but the activists are moving much faster.Report

  9. Jaybird says:

    One of the articles mentions the dude who gets called “Gaybraham Lincoln” who was one of the more visible folks supporting the recall effort.

    He was among those who were being called Republicans.

    A picture of him showed up on twitter and I wanted to share it with you all.

    Report

    • Doctor Jay in reply to Jaybird says:

      I get your amusement. AND, living here we are well aware that being gay and wearing the rainbow doesn’t mean you are liberal politically.

      We are not a monolithReport

      • Jaybird in reply to Doctor Jay says:

        Allow me to give the quotation from the SF Chronicle:

        “This is what happens when you try to rename the schools in the middle of a pandemic!” exclaimed David Thompson a.k.a “Gaybraham” Lincoln, an SFUSD parent dressed in head-to-toe rainbow drag and towering platform shoes, who described his persona as a form of protest. “We wanted to show the diversity of the community behind this recall. I knew they were going to say, ‘Oh isn’t it just a bunch of Republicans?’ and I’m like, do I look like a Republican?”

        Mr. Thompson seems to make the point that the Republicans in San Fran aren’t a monolith either.Report

  10. Kazzy says:

    I don’t know the specifics of San Francisco, but everything I’ve seen in my necks of the woods just saw more and more parents — regardless of political affiliation — saying, “Just get the damn kids back in the damn schools.” And once that was achieved and felt folks confident there would be no walkbacks from there, energy shifted to, “Can we take off the damn masks, too?” NJ is going mask-optional March 7 (with individual districts retaining the right to require them, as of now) and I believe CT and NY are following suit on the same or a similar timeline.

    I’d venture to guess that the schools staying closed as long as they did while so many others opened was the major driving force. Everything else was probably just layers and layers of icing on top.

    So, yea, “They’re renaming schools that they won’t even open!” was likely a rallying cry and a really damning one for the board, it likely would have been, “The schools still won’t open!” absent the renaming.

    With that in mind, I’m not sure this portends anything beyond the general feeling on school closures and other school-related Covid policies.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

      If you are interested in the specifics of San Francisco, Clara Jeffrey’s article will fill you in.

      She has a full paragraph dedicated to each of the issues of Remote learning, School names, The murals, Lowell admissions, The budget, The consultant, LGBTQ representation, Alison Collins’ racist tweets, The $87 million lawsuit, and Meetings.

      11 paragraphs! You’ll get six paragraphs in and say “holy cow, she’s still going” and you will leave that article saying “Okay. All right. That was worse than I thought.”Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

        I’ll try to dig into when I have time. I was talking more about broader SF political issues though.

        My broader point is that I’m not surprised that a school board was recalled for keeping schools closed longer than most of the rest of the country, regardless of the general political leanings of the community. “SF Recalls BOE Members Who Kept Schools Closed” is not a surprising headline to me. Change SF to any other place and I’d remain unsurprised.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          Here are the headlines:

          Reason: San Francisco Voters Fire 3 School Board Members
          subhed: “Progressive” school COVID policies no longer welcome in the capital of progressivism

          Mother Jones: What Pundits Don’t Understand About the San Francisco Recall
          subhed: It was about incompetence.

          And, of course, The San Francisco Chronicle: S.F. school board recall: Alison Collins, Gabriela López and Faauuga Moliga ousted
          (no subhed for that one)

          I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t blame the writers for the headlines, though.

          I understand that someone else entirely writes them.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            MJ’s makes sense… the members do indeed seem incompetent (see my comment to InMD below for why)
            SFC’s seems pretty generic.

            Reason’s I might push back on because I’m not sure that keeping schools closed in 2021-22 was a “progressive” idea. Which might be why they put it in quotes. I don’t know the exact rationale for why they kept them closed, but I think the vast majority of people of all political stripes would have said, “Schools should open in fall of 2021.”

            If the reason they didn’t was kowtowing to the unions, I suppose you could argue that is a progressive position. But most unions have found themselves in the firing line from parents of all political stripes.

            I guess I just don’t see a way or reason to wedge this into “The Dems are in trouble.” If anything, it seems to show “Dem city ousts incompetent Dem pols.” That is a good thing, I’d say?Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy says:

              It should be pointed out that conservative school board members are voted out of office in conservative states, routinely.

              But it doesn’t make news because they lose election to other conservatives.

              I expect that the replacements that Mayor Breed selects will be progressive as well, maybe just more committed to the job.

              I don’t think we can expect SF schools to be showing pictures of Chinamen in coolie hats anytime soon.Report

              • Trumwill in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I understand the reference and point that you are making, but I would prefer you make it a different way given how easily this one is misunderstood and potentially provocative to parties you are not intending to criticizeReport

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Trumwill says:

                No worries.
                I will just use the phrase “pictures of Asian people with slanty eyes and conical hats”.

                As in, “Republican free speech means pictures of Asian people with slanty eyes and conical hats are acceptable, but the critical theory which explains them is forbidden.”Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              I didn’t wedge this into “the dems are in trouble”.

              I wedged this into “it’s not enough to argue that those who are in opposition are Trumpy”.

              I suppose it’s possible to see a hidden premise of “if Democrats are unwilling or unable to stop accusing anyone who disagrees with them as being Trumpy then they’ll be in trouble” but then the question becomes “Is the P in P->Q true?”

              And if it’s not, we don’t even have to look at whether P->Q is true.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Was the argument put forth that those who wanted a recall were Trumpy?

                Still… “Trumpies want a recall. We… agree with them. So be it.” That’s a GOOD thing for our democracy.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                From the San Francisco Chronicle:

                “This is what happens when you try to rename the schools in the middle of a pandemic!” exclaimed David Thompson a.k.a “Gaybraham” Lincoln, an SFUSD parent dressed in head-to-toe rainbow drag and towering platform shoes, who described his persona as a form of protest. “We wanted to show the diversity of the community behind this recall. I knew they were going to say, ‘Oh isn’t it just a bunch of Republicans?’ and I’m like, do I look like a Republican?”

                You can see his picture above.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think we’re… agreeing?

                Or I’m just not clear on your point.

                What are you saying?

                I’m saying that Democrats in SF prioritized a school board that opened schools over a school board that pursued “woke-ness”. This aligned them with some Republicans, maybe even some Trumpers.

                Opening schools in Fall 2021 became a bi-partisan issue and politicians who bucked that got kicked to the curb.

                Good.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                You asked if the argument was put forth that the people behind the recall were Trumpy. That’s what I answered. That paragraph was from the Chronicle.

                Maybe Gaybraham Lincoln was making a strawman of those who opposed the recall.

                I suppose that that’s on the table.

                But I’ll go back to the part where Clara Jeffrey and Matt Welch agreed in their articles: Arguing that any critique is coming from people who are insufficiently radical is no longer enough.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                On this issue, yes.Report

  11. Chip Daniels says:

    Given that mayor London Breed supported the recall, and will appoint their replacements, it does seem like this was more about competence than any grand political realignment.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I’m sure that the various places that have demonstrated competence over the last couple of years have nothing to worry about.Report

    • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Plenty of Democrats and D-leaning people are not down with this nonsense. Polls suggest that’s the case for the plurality, and maybe even a significant majority of such people. The idea that they are, or are now required to be, is really a combination of conservative propaganda and baffling self-own by blue team leaders and aligned media and activists.Report

    • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Well yes, the happy side of this is that it’s an intra-liberal and intra-Democratic discussion/debate.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

        I’m not opposed to the idea that we should have a serious discussion about whether some people committed sins so great that we should not be honoring them in the present. There are lots of places named after very horrible people. But sometimes people get very stupid about it. Thinking you could “cancel” Washington, Lincoln, and Revere is really a cartoon of idenitarian left politics.*

        *Thomas Jefferson, I think, is a genuinely trickier person. He wrote and did some great things but he also rapped an underage girl who was his slave and had children with her. Sally Hemmings was 12 when Jefferson became minister to France and 16 when his ministry ended. I think removing his name from schools is more defensible.Report

        • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          It’d help dismiss the caricatures if our modern iconoclasts would abstain from taking runs at statues of Washington, Lincoln and similar figures. But they didn’t (though thankfully they were by and large unsuccessful once they started targeting monuments for people who were less obviously problematic).Report

  12. Kazzy says:

    Another point: This isn’t limited to public schools. The private schools that weathered the Covid-storm best are the ones that put all their resources into a thoughtful and balanced response. The ones that suffered are those that overreacted, underreacted, and/or allowed attention to by diverted from the most pressing issue. My girlfriend’s school took a pretty hard overreaction course (while remaining open) that zapped teachers pretty hard. On top of this, they leaned into a TON of DEI work, trying to be responsive to the cultural moment occurring in 2020-21. Leaving aside the quality and necessity of that work in a vacuum… this wasn’t a vacuum. Teachers didn’t need ANY more on their plate and adding more was a real tactical error that has caused some real issues.Report

    • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

      So basically the ones that did well focused on the mission, the ones that didn’t veered off into anything but that.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

        Not quite. School missions are often a word salad of buzz words and vague nonsense. Most these days include some commitment to DEI so the argument could be made that OF COURSE they had to develop curriculum in response to George Floyd et al. And, in the normal course of operating, I’d say that a school which had a commitment to DEI in its mission and did nothing different in response to such events would be failing to fulfill its mission.

        But 2020-21-22 were not normal. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

        So I’d reframe it that the schools that appropriately prioritized fared better than schools that didn’t. And to be clear, schools tend to be horrible at prioritizing, primarily because they often try to identify multiple priorities. “What’s the most important thing we do?” “Everything.” Um… that’s not how it works. You get ONE primary goal. ONE secondary goal. ONE tertiary goal. Etc. So it isn’t shocking that so many schools fell on their face during the pandemic.

        A major takeaway I had is that the pandemic demanded crisis management, not traditional school leadership and administration. Too many schools tried to “lead” and “administer” their way through this instead of switching into a different mode of operation. You can’t entirely fault them because so many areas of society fell victim to this same phenomenon because of the unprecedentedness of all this. But by the 2021-22 school year, there was enough there there that schools couldn’t keep falling back on, “Well, how could we have known?”

        Renaming schools was rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Yes, the arrangement of chairs matters… when the ship is floating along. That is necessary work to do… when the ship is floating along. If you have a good process for arranging them, you’ll do better than a ship that doesn’t… so long as your ship is floating along. But once you hit the iceberg, someone has got to say, “Okay, new game plan.”Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

          Here is a mission statement from one of the more traditional schools in Manhattan: “Horace Mann School prepares a diverse community of students to lead great and giving lives. We strive to maintain a safe, secure, and caring environment in which mutual respect, mature behavior, and the life of the mind can thrive. We recognize and celebrate individual achievement and contributions to the common good.”

          Now, could someone argue that “maintaining a safe… environment” would have required schools to be closed in the fall? Sure. Could that same someone argue that serving a “diverse community” would require teacher PD focused on DEI instead of pandemic teaching? Sure.

          Hopefully, whomever was leading that school would say, “Damn the mission… what is the frickin’ POINT of our existence?” and shut that someone down.

          ETA: You’ll also probably note that that mission statement tells you almost nothing about the school. Again, word salad.Report

        • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

          I get what you’re saying, and corporate America can fall into similar kinds of…. oh we’ll just say confusion with respect to its employees.

          But this is where I admit, I am kind of a simpleton. Why does any school have a mission other than teaching students? And at some point I suppose helping to guide along towards what their post high school lives will look like?

          To be clear I’m not against icing on top. I love icing on top. I don’t think American schools should look like the pressure cookers in east Asian societies (which for the record I’m sure are not exactly the stereotype).

          But I’d like to think there is a core set of goals that don’t take word salad to explain. Am I totally off base here?Report

          • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

            No, we’re all making ice cream but we’re making different flavors. Sometimes the mission will identify that and sometimes not. There are other “core documents” schools have that are usually better at differentiating.

            Progressive vs traditional. Rigorous and demanding vs more supportive. Stuff like that.

            So you’d think that “Teaching kids” would just be assumed and normally it is but somehow… SOMEHOW… schools lost sight of that.

            Also, private schools are businesses so “teaching kids” is actually only part of it. Often times, the boards’ priority is hitting enrollment goals because that goes right to financial stability. SO things get complicated quickly.

            “We could teach kids better if we do this.”
            “Yea but parents want not-this.”Report

            • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

              This sounds to me less like a disagreement about ends and more a disagreement about means, or maybe means within applicable constraints.

              Where I get lost is what I read as an underlying premise that there is not and cannot ever be something normative, even if it’s always just a little out of reach. So we can talk about the constraints and what a reasonable outcome can look like. What I don’t think we can do is abandon the idea that there are better and worse ways to do things.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                The disagreement between private schools is largely about means moreso than ends. No doubt there.

                Your second paragraph lost me a bit… are you wondering/questioning why there isn’t some generally agreed upon “best practices”? In some regard, there are.

                The question about “better and worse ways to do things” always leads back to… for whom? What works for you might not work for me. So then what?

                With regards to private schools, they also often seek to differentiate themselves with non-academic things. Sports, clubs, community, parent work, etc. Again, it’s a business.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                Fair enough, and let me rephrase on paragraph 2. I agree that was confusing.

                What I mean is can we not identify things that will never, ever help in a public school system? I’m thinking about the list of items in the Mother Jones article in the OP. There are other things too not in the article I can think of, but what I’m interested in is the possibility of taking certain things off the table.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

                NO, we can’t. Schools in Maryland, school sin Mississippi, schools in Oregon all have differing communities, with differing needs and differing constituencies. There are things kids in schools down here need – like really need – that would be a waste in Maryland. And vice versa.

                Look at Common Core. 46 of 50 state Secretaries of Education participated in writing that set of standards. They did their professional best, as did their staff, to produce a national minimum set of standards. Once the U.S. Department of Education adopted that set verbatim, all the red states started running around yelling about federal over reach – on standards they helped write. Then the curriculum publishing houses got involved, and now 50 states teach to the standards 50 different ways, when they teach to them at all.

                That’s a lot of backing away from a unified approach. and while it probably hurts education nationally, it doesn’t always hurt the kids in each state. But it is illustrative of how hard it is to identify a unified foundation.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Philip H says:

                Common Core was universally unpopular. A true bipartisan revolt.Report

              • Philip H in reply to John Puccio says:

                written by 46 of 50 state education secretaries so it also started out bipartisan . . . . The standard is fine, its the implementation – which is also school board and state ed department controlled – where it fell apart.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

                I’m not talking about a totally unified approach. Not in a country this big and this diverse.

                I want to start with what to me is a really low hanging piece of fruit. Can we agree that any school that is spending significant time on who a building is named after is straying from its purpose?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                You mean, like a banned list? 😉

                More seriously, this goes a bit beyond my own expertise, as I’m an early childhood teacher who has taught almost exclusively in PreK and below.

                I would say there are certain practices that should never been employed in such settings: corporal punishment, shaming, any form of abuse.

                I can’t speak to whether there are certain instructional methods that should be barred from an elementary or middle or high school classroom. We could probably agree on certain extreme things. And as a society we’ve more-or-less collectively decided against certain approaches, such as the heavy tracking used in many European systems. Not everyone necessarily agrees with that but we’ve more-or-less made it illegal based on certain underlying values.

                The trouble is, any time someone said, “You should never ever ever ever ever ever do X,” no matter how many heads nod in agreement, someone would pipe up and say, “BUT X WORKED WONDERS FOR ME!” And then what?

                I mean, Wiki tells me that corporal punishment is legal in public schools in 19 states and practiced in 15. Only two states outlaw it in private schools. Federal statistics indicate over 100K students subjected to corporal punishment per year for years in which there is data, mostly from the late 00’s and early 10’s. In 2005 77% of adults opposed corporal punishment by teachers. A 2010 House bill to outlaw it at the federal level died in committee. Paddling seems to be the primary method.

                So… what do I know? We can’t even agree — in theory or in practice — on whether schools should beat children.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                That’s certainly disturbing about corporal punishment, and I’d be happy to put that on the list of things we say cannot ever be allowed in a public school.

                But what I’m talking about is not even at the point of methodology. It’s well beneath that. I get there will forever be some version of the phonics vs. whatever they called the thing that replaced phonics or memorizing multiplication tables versus whatever common core teaches.

                I’m asking about the junk that has no apparent relationship to educating children. Like, is there a study somewhere that shows children of Mexican ancestory read better in a school named after Cesar Chavez instead of Abraham Lincoln? Is there evidence that dividing up the parents into race based affinity groups on back to school night at the recommendation of a 5 figure DEI consultant helps students get to grade level in math (issues of federal and state law aside)?

                That is what I am talking about. Because I believe the more time they are spending on that, the less they are on their real mission. And they do not have time to spare.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                Ah okay.

                I’m not aware of any studies.

                But the weird thing is, some of that cuts both ways.

                Let’s say renaming the school Caesar Chavez high makes no difference. Well, then, that also means there is no harm in doing it. The harm would be in the opportunity cost of pursuing that. But, why does that cost have to be more than, “Should we do this? Yay or nay?”

                It’s really easy to say, “All the stuff THEY want to do that isn’t directly related to education is stupid and a waste of time.”

                I mean, that Board in Tennessee has now had multiple meetings focused on whether to remove “Maus” because it takes the Lord’s name in vain. Should we ban those wastes of time, too? Or is that more legitimate for some reason?

                There is research that shows the impact of representation in schools. It has a measurable impact on student performance. Does that include school names? I don’t believe so.

                And further, who would decide on this list of Board no-gos? Educational experts? We’ve already seen what so much of the public thinks about such people (i.e., not highly at all).

                The issue here wasn’t renaming schools. It was renaming schools that they weren’t opening. And they got their just desserts for being boneheads: they’re out of a job. To me that is a preferable process to some high and mighty council deciding what every school board in America can or cannot take on.

                I hear what you’re saying… it is endlessly frustrating to see students suffering because of the bad decisions of a school board. And even more so when those bad decisions have such awful optics. Few people banged the drum louder than I did about re-opening schools. I hurt for those kids and families who couldn’t goto school in SF (and elsewhere) last fall. But I don’t see a solution to that that doesn’t have far worse unintended consequences.

                It’s also not entirely clear that they would have gotten the schools open if they weren’t engaged in renaming. To me, that is likely more of an optics issue than anything else. I don’t think it was an either/or. Which is why I bet the recall was motivated much more by the closings than the renaming. If they renamed the schools AND opened them, I doubt there would have been as much support.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                I’m not trying to let conservatives off the hook. I did not think the fight they picked over ‘intelligent design’ 15-20 years ago was any better a use of anyone’s time than this is. Everyone involved in that should be ashamed. On Maus I think reasonable people can disagree on its appropriateness for middle schoolers but as a general matter I am not on board with efforts to cull the school library. I was against it with Huck Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird and I am now. And I don’t support ‘anti-CRT laws’ or find them helpful.

                But here’s where you and I maybe differ. I think that the renaming fiasco/woke excesses and the re-opening issues go hand in hand. These are not the actions of an institution trying in good faith and coming up short. Those that do this have forgotten their role, which is to serve the taxpayer and their children. Instead of laser focus on delivering a critical public service they have been frivolous. That is what I want us to be able to say is not ever acceptable anywhere.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                “But here’s where you and I maybe differ. I think that the renaming fiasco/woke excesses and the re-opening issues go hand in hand. These are not the actions of an institution trying in good faith and coming up short. Those that do this have forgotten their role, which is to serve the taxpayer and their children. Instead of laser focus on delivering a critical public service they have been frivolous. That is what I want us to be able to say is not ever acceptable anywhere.”

                If we differ, it may be in degree. It is probably impossible to untangle how much the renaming fiasco/woke excesses (and I’m intentionally not putting those in quotes because I’m 100% comfortable labeling them as such) impacted the re-opening efforts. We could probably dive into board meeting minutes, but if their board is anything like my local board, they have the power to have certain portions of the meeting take place in private without minutes. Further, we don’t know what sort of back room deals may have been going on, particularly with the union.

                So, it’s possible that the schools weren’t going to re-open in fall no matter what because the BOE didn’t want them to or was in bed with the union or some other such thing. And it’s possible that they wasted all their meeting time staring at their navels about school names and never came up with a plan for re-opening. I’d bet money on the former but the latter is indeed possible.

                Either scenario justifies a recall.

                Now, if the schools re-opened and they were still navel gazing about school names… I’m not sure a recall effort would have been successful. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been justified, just that I don’t think Demo voters would have lined up behind it enough. But I could be wrong on that.

                “Instead of laser focus on delivering a critical public service they have been frivolous. That is what I want us to be able to say is not ever acceptable anywhere.”
                Requoting this because I think it is the meat of your argument and one I agree with wholeheartedly.

                The thing is, I’m not sure how we ensure that. Maybe this recall will strike some fear in other Boards and their members will act better. Or maybe it’ll take a few more recalls. Unfortunately, I worry future recalls may be more based on “I don’t like your ideas/politics” and not “You’re being derelict in your duties.”

                Generally speaking, Boards can have their scope narrowed. A major issue in my town (and to clarify, this is the town I live and send my kids to school in, not where I work) was that there was some disagreement or otherwise lack of clarity over who had the power over our re-opening plan. The super at the time claimed it was under his jurisdiction and the board seemed content to punt it to him. The details from there don’t matter but they do point towards there being some rules about what the board does and does not have say over.

                I imagine that is true everywhere. But the rules themselves, who makes those rules, how they’re enforced, etc. like vary greatly.

                As I’m getting rather long-winded here, I agree with you but just don’t know what the solution is. Recalling folks is A solution but it means damage has already been done and when we’re talking about the education of children, the stakes are so high and the reversability of that damage such a challenge that it is hard to stomach that as just a part of the process.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

            Isn’t “teaching” going to include questions like. “Name the primary cause of the Civil War”?

            And is “Preservation of slavery” allowed to be the correct answer?

            Believe it or not, this is hotly debated. Often by the very people who want “politics” out of schools.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

            I remain inordinately proud of my What is the point of Lower Education post.

            If a kid graduates high school and cannot do X, Y, and Z, I think it’s fair to say that the high school failed this kid.

            (Or, sure, one always falls through the cracks… we can say more than 3% of the kids who cannot do X, Y, and Z then the school has failed them.)

            And I was kind of shocked by what the suggestions to X, Y, and Z would be because if we want X, Y, and Z, then our nation’s high schools are failing more than half of our students. Maybe more than two thirds. Like, we happy few at this website right freakin’ now are among those who were *NOT* failed by our high school educations.Report

            • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

              It was a good post.

              And for the record I am not totally unsympathetic to the plight of people trying to run the public schools. The house I grew up in is a 20-25 min drive from some of those places you read about in Baltimore where the grade level literacy rate is 0. Obviously my situation was nothing remotely like theirs, but I try to be very open minded about what might help them and their families.

              Stuff like relitigating Brown v. Board (in the opposite direction! by people who call themselves left wing!) never would have crossed my mind.Report

            • North in reply to Jaybird says:

              My more cynical take is that school is, firstly and foremostly, a place to safely warehouse and babysit kids en masse while their parents work. Educating them and socializing them clocks in as the second tier responsibility.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North says:

                My take before the pandemic was that the point of lower education was:

                Lower lower class: Day Care
                Middle lower class: Day Care, maybe a few students will be able to aspire to Upper Lower class
                Upper lower class: get a diploma and a job

                Lower middle class: get a diploma and a steady job (if you’re lucky, a union job)
                Middle middle class: college prep
                Upper middle class: college prep

                Lower upper class: college prep, networking
                Middle upper class: networking, college prep
                Upper upper class: Networking

                —————

                I was so very optimistic.

                Now I would say that it is:

                Lower lower class: Day Care
                Middle lower class: Day Care, maybe a few students will be able to aspire to Upper Lower class
                Upper lower class: Day Care, get a diploma and a job

                Lower middle class: Day Care, get a diploma and a steady job (if you’re lucky, a union job)
                Middle middle class: Day Care, college prep
                Upper middle class: Day Care, college prep

                Lower upper class: Light Day Care, college prep, networking
                Middle upper class: college prep, networking
                Upper upper class: NetworkingReport

              • North in reply to Jaybird says:

                Sounds about right.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                On the other hand…

                Didn’t the pandemic also teach us that most of the parents who seemingly thought, “I KNOW BETTER THAN THE SCHOOLS HOW TO TEACH MY OWN KID!” were wrong? Like, they’re admitting they’re wrong? While also still insisting that?

                “TAKE THEM BACK!!! I CAN’T TEACH THEM! But let me tell you how to do your job.”Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I think you’re mischaracterizing the situation, but even if you’re right, why can’t it be both/and? I had to do some plumbing once, and while I can still do it kind of well, I’m still paying someone else to do it and I expect them to do better than I did. They’ve got the time and the tools, and I’ve got my own full-time job.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t know how many of the most thought that.

                I do know that, at the beginning of safe-at-home, I thought that there was going to be a number of students who found that they were better off getting home schooled than being in school, a number of parents who found that they were better at teaching than they thought they would be, and these parents and students that happened to be in the same household were overwelmingly going to be on this side and not that side of the tracks.

                And that those households held outsized political power.

                From there, I suppose that there’s a mushy area where the kids got more or less the same level of education they would have gotten in a pandemicless world.

                Then there’s a lump of students that got a worse education at home than they would have otherwise.

                And *THEN* there’s a bunch of students, the ones we don’t really like to talk about, who are getting more or less the same level of education they would have gotten in a pandemicless world.

                But, after a couple of years of this, I don’t know that we’re in “I thought I could teach them, but I can’t” territory. Like, not anymore.

                Maybe 18 months ago.

                We’re in “What in the hell are we paying you for?” territory.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                We swim in different pools of parents of school-aged kids, I guess.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Well, I’ll also grant that my pool was back to school rather than facing year 2+ of even-safer-at-home.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think all of those groups do exist. I just think the ratios may vary.

                Of course, there is how people felt and there is data. All of the data I have seen have shown that — collectively — there was real learning loss, developmental gaps, mental health issues, and other real problems that emerged from extended school closures/limited re-openings. So, while some kids undoubtedly did better in some areas learning at home and while some parents may have done a better job than their child’s teachers, the data shows that the vast majority of kids got a worse education being home in full or in part than they did at school. And that’s not JUST because of what the parents did or didn’t do… but it should challenge anyone who thinks, “My kid doesn’t need teachers anymore,” to really think about whether that is true.

                Hell, I am a frickin’ teacher and I couldn’t do what my kids’ teachers did.

                Maybe I’m just a sucky teacher AND parent. Who knows.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Kazzy says:

                It’s important to be clear, though, that the learning loss being charted is *not* for homeschooling, but for remote schooling at home.

                Fine to say that no one was prepared to shift all their school benefits to zoom and pretend there wasn’t going to be some loss… but I’m noting some interesting double dealing (in the press, not you specifically) suggesting that remote public schooling failures can be used to discredit homeschooling.

                I get the temptation, but I’m not going to stand by. Y’all weren’t homeschooling.

                Our little co-ops? we picked up a number of new folks; some will stay and some will go back next year. From chit chat I don’t think folks who opted out of the uncertainty of last year feel like they lost a year… but I can see why some will be happy to go back to ‘normal’.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Fully conceded that the last two years was not home schooling. Schools themselves struggled to deliver on remote learning.

                But many many parents are — and have been for a while — DONE trying to be their child’s teacher and all that comes with itReport

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                This is the second time in a couple of days you’ve referred to a differentiation by class. If that was ever meaningful in the US, it isn’t any longer. It’s differences in culture, not class. I mean, especially 9 classes. How would anyone measure them?

                As as aside, I’ve heard it argued that there are two classes in the US: those who identify as middle class, and those who identify as upper-middle class. Most people think that most people are basically the same; some people think that there are classes and they’re better than others.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                I would probably prefer to discuss caste but, well, you know how it is.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                or a nice system of fealty oaths.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              I remain inordinately proud of my What is the point of Lower Education post.

              Indeed.Report

  13. Saul Degraw says:

    As the resident San Franciscan here, let me iterate my constant claim. San Francisco is liberal and possibly to the left of the American mean. It is very Democratic. But it is not the parody that is often featured in the national media. Rainbow Grocery has an excellent selection of spices, cheeses, oils, and other products but I can guarantee that most San Franciscans do not want every business to be run as a worker’s cooperative.

    If you look at city wide elections, it is generally the perceived moderate candidate that wins.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      San Francisco is liberal and possibly to the left of the American mean

      I applaud the use of “possibly”. Well done.

      it is generally the perceived moderate candidate that wins

      Believe it or not, *I* am seen as one of the voices of the right-wing on this site! *ME*!!!

      There was a line from one of the most left-wing commenters here a few years back (and, like, that’s not me calling him that, that’s his own admission!) where he said something to the effect of “I want what all Progressives want. To become a reactionary old person.”

      I thought that this was incredibly insightful.Report

  14. Greg In Ak says:

    Color me completely unsurprised there was push back against the furthest out lefty performative stuff. Bound to happen and always does. Will this in any way measurable by human tech stop the screaming about CRT and lefites going to destroy everything. Well of course not. But the worst leftie stuff gets push back from liberals and mods.

    Try to tell consertives that maybe the left isn’t a giant woketopus coming to turn every single child trans against their will and they don’t believe you. Welp here’s some push back against the Left. Lets see the push back against all the anti CRT bills.

    Why the hell is a local school board election much of a concern to anybody outside of SF. It’s been noted before but very local stories often end national for no really good reason other then the web exists. This is a local story.

    One way to stop feeling like a couple or three giant cities and uni’s run everything is to actually stop talking about them. San Fran is the fav place of righties to think about even though they hate it existence. Now is the time for good right folk to forget about SF and move the heck on.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      I should have requested that editorial call the headline “San Francisco goes Reactionary. Surprised? You should be! Triggered?”

      Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

        Honestly jay what does this gibberish even mean? Is this supposed to mean anything?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          Sorry, I’ll let you get back to how you’re not surprised that this happened and conservatives are bad.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

            Lol. What the hell? Lefties got push back for going to far in a leftie city. Not surprised at all since the type of leftie who is overly performative always gets push back. This has been happening since the 90’s. Not surprised. I think we actually sort of agree on this actually. One reason why i didn’t get to upset about SF silliness in the first place.

            Another reason not to freak out about SF is that whole let local places do things there own way thing. If they wanted the performative lefties then they can vote for them, that is their business. If they want them out then that is their business. The peeps there can elect who they wish. Democracy and all that.

            Yes i want to see conservatives push back on their wingnuts. I dont’ see it happening but that would be great if that happened.Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              To answer your question above, the SF-Bay Area is always used as convenient punching bag by the right.

              Performative leftist gets defeated: “Democrats beware! SF is going Republican.”

              Performative leftist survives recall: “LOL, look at those bozos in San Francisco.”Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            You now have several lefty-ish folks telling you, “Yea, this isn’t surprising. This is even good!” and you’re still on some train about how awful the left is. Huh?Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              Kazzy: My article isn’t about “how awful the left is”.

              Seriously. It’s right up there.

              Arguing against my position as if it were “Jaybird is just complaining about the left!” is to misunderstand my article.

              I spent more time quoting Clara Jeffrey than the San Francisco Chronicle and more time quoting the Chronicle than Matt Welch.

              The topic ain’t “the left is bad” and leaping to the left’s defense in the wake of the school board recalls in San Francisco is a weird thing to be defending.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s just weird then that every time a left-leaning person says, “Yea, it makes sense that this happened,” you feel the need to take some knock at them.

                SF BOE: [Does some dumb woke shit while schools remain closed]
                Voters: “RECALL THE BASTARDS!”
                Somebody somewhere, I guess?: “Don’t support the recall! It’s just a bunch of Trumpers and folks who align with them!”
                Voters: [Vote to recall]

                That’s basically how this went, right? If so, why do you want to focus on that “Somebody somewhere”? Why is that the interesting piece? Because they were wrong? YES THEY WERE WRONG! That is what we’re saying! You seem surprised? Upset? Unsatisfied? that no one here is taking the bait and defending THAT position. You want to pick a fight that no one here is interested in. It’s… weird.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Kazzy, they’re not saying “Yeah, it makes sense that this happened.”

                They’re saying “Yeah, it makes sense that this happened BUT TRUMP. It makes sense that this happened BUT REPUBLICANS.”

                The school board was derelict in its duty.
                Every single school board member who was eligible to be recalled was recalled.
                This is a warning.

                There is an election in November.

                “But Trump” has stopped working.

                Democrats are going to need something to argue against criticisms other than “But Trump” and even “But Republicans”.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                How many elections did Democrats win with “BUT TRUMP!”?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                2020?
                The House?
                The Senate? Specifically the two seats in Georgia?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                *citation needed*Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Oh yeah, I forgot that the Democrats managed to lose seats in 2020.

                I’d say that, for the House, 2018 is the example.

                For the Senate, I’ll point to Trump mucking things up with the Georgia run-offs. Here’s my source for that assertion. (It’s a news report from *BEFORE* the election that goes out of its way to say that nobody knows whether what Trump is doing is helping or hurting.)

                As for the White House, I’d point to the various arguments given not only around our website but also stuff like:

                I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Your assertion was they won elections on “But Trump”.

                Where did this happen?
                And how would you quantify winning on “But Trump” versus any other message?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Quantify? I’m working in qualified space here.

                I can only point to narratives about stuff like “a return to normalcy” and stuff like “make the presidency boring again“.

                If you want me to quantify this, are you asking for stuff like exit polls that specifically ask what people’s concerns were?

                If the choice on the poll for “Was Your Vote For President Mainly” and people were asked to choose between “For your candidate” and “Against his opponent”, what number would you expect to see in “against”? Would “2 out of 3” count?

                I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for when you’re asking me to quantify this.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Couldn’t “return to normalcy” be another way of winning with “Good Government”?

                And couldnt the the SF election also be a case of people saying “Yeah, we want normal boring competent government “?

                And if that’s the case, doesn’t that bode well for the Democrats?

                Or at least, doesn’t it bode poorly for the team of “Jesus, Guns and Babies”‽

                What you’re doing is trying to assign an arbitrary interpretation of every election result to confirm your biases when the results could just as easily be explained by any number of other factors.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                There are many things that “could” be.

                But as someone who remembers that Trump seemed to breed chaos and whip everything into a frenzy, I see “return to normalcy” as stuff like what Ezra is talking about in his essay:

                It’s important to be clear on this point: Biden doesn’t have a plan to heal American politics. His answer to the divisiveness of the Trump years is to replace Trump in the White House. His answer to the divisiveness of the Obama years is no answer at all.

                It’s not “good government”. It’s “replacing Trump”.

                And couldnt the the SF election also be a case of people saying “Yeah, we want normal boring competent government “?

                I believe that the people interviewed about why they voted the way they did specifically came out and said that the previous people were incompetent. They didn’t talk about how exciting the people were, not that I can tell. Not from the articles that I read. They were talking about how the schools were closed and the school board came up with a plan to rename the schools.

                And if that’s the case, doesn’t that bode well for the Democrats?

                To the extent that the Democrats are in charge, I think that “I’m not happy with the last duration, I’m going to throw the bums out” might work against the Democrats.

                Or at least, doesn’t it bode poorly for the team of “Jesus, Guns and Babies”‽

                Depends. When there is great dissatisfaction with governance, someone who rides up and says “Hey, I’ll pander to you!” might have a leg up over whomever happens to be in charge now.

                What you’re doing is trying to assign an arbitrary interpretation of every election result to confirm your biases when the results could just as easily be explained by any number of other factors.

                In this particular case, I compared the San Francisco Chronicle, Reason Magazine, and Mother Jones and saw where they overlapped and, after digesting the facts that were not in dispute, thought that where the narratives from these different ideological standpoints overlapped were where the narratives likely represented the largest consensus.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I agree that running a “BUT TRUMP” campaign is not a promising route for Democrats. How effective it is in the future may depend on how prominent a figure Trump is. Who knows.

                It just seems like an add thing to make your primary takeaway. I don’t see many Democrats or liberals — here or elsewhere — who are banking on a “BUT TRUMP!” being the winning strategy going forward. If that weapon is removed from the arsenal… meh?

                I think the bigger takeaway here is that there is still the potential for bipartisan/universal opposition to bad governance. Let’s hope we see more of that in the future.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                How effective it is in the future may depend on how prominent a figure Trump is. Who knows.

                One thing that I might do, in theory, is look to see at where such a move may prove to have failed. See if it’s the median or way out there or what.

                being the winning strategy going forward

                On an intellectual level? Probably not.
                As the first thing they go for? Habitually? Well, maybe I’ll be able to find a handful of examples…

                I think the bigger takeaway here is that there is still the potential for bipartisan/universal opposition to bad governance. Let’s hope we see more of that in the future.

                Oh, I agree. I suppose another part of the problem is whether the people over here are good at telling how people over there distinguish between good and bad.

                This goes back to the theory that the school board was not incompetent, it was exceptionally competent… it was just disconnected from what the people in the community wanted competence in.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Who is advancing that theory?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                It’s flying around out there.

                Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Good thing 75ish% of voters didn’t buy such crap.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                “I don’t see many Democrats or liberals — here or elsewhere — who are banking on a “BUT TRUMP!” being the winning strategy going forward. ”

                oh hi there gaslighting, how are you doing today?

                “but TRUMP” was just about the only thing anybody talked about in 2020, it’s why we got BidenReport

              • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck says:

                Well, when running against Trump, “BUT TRUMP!” seems like a reasonable strategy.

                It’s 2022. No one is gaslighting anyone.

                Do you have evidence Democratic strategists are planning on a “BUT TRUMP!” strategy for the mid-terms?

                Jaybird desperately wants someone to defend a position that no one here holds.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Jaybird desperately wants someone to defend a position that no one here holds.

                In their forebrains? Nobody does.

                But when you post an OP where you point out a massive recall of a bunch of differently competent boobs, there seems to be a bunch of “yes but REPUBLICANS!” responses coming up. Like, organically.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yes, because we’re noting the difference in responses to Democratic incompetence to Republican incompetence from their own party.

                As someone who loves to take conversations in different directions, surely you can understand why folks may want to share their own observations.

                No one here is defending the SF board.
                No one here is advocating for a “BUT TRUMP!” electoral strategy.

                If you want to engage with folks who hold those positions, go find them.

                And if you don’t want to engage with folks who say, “I wish more voters were willing to hold their own side accountable,” just ignore us.

                But stop actively insisting we hold positions we don’t or questioning the sincerity of our comments.

                Cuz right now my entire brain — fore, rear, and otherwise — just thinks your being a whole ass.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Fair enough.

                It’s almost enough to make you wonder why a silly little local issue is making national news.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                They ran a “BUT TRUMP!” campaign in Virginia last year.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                An interesting moment in the debate from the small local election in Virginia:

                There was no “but Trump!” in this clip.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                Not in that clip, sure. But that was an issue that McAuliffe stumbled into, and Youngkin kind of stumbled into it himself. The McAuliffe campaign was “BUT TRUMP!” leading up to that point, and the same thing afterwards (although by that point it was obviously not working).Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                You want a time capsule that will blow your mind?

                https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/28/mcauliffe-youngkin-final-virginia-debate-514604

                This is Politico’s article after the debate. Not one word about education.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                “We need leadership as governor, not trying to be a Trump wannabe and doing the talking points,” McAuliffe said while attacking Youngkin over vaccine mandates.

                Huh.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m currently watching the debate online just to make sure I’ve got my story right.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                I just watched the 9/28 McAuliffe Youngkin debate, and that certainly was a use of time. I watched it on the C-SPAN site, which also highlighted the “Points of Interest”:
                Youngkin Opening Statement
                McAuliffe Opening Statement
                COVID-19
                Confederate Statues
                Afghan Refugees
                Right-to-Work
                Closing Statements

                At one point, Youngkin made a joke about Las Vegas’s over/under on how many times McAuliffe would say “Trump” (apparently 10, and he exceeded it.) We don’t always remember history right.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Last year.

                I repeat: “Do you have evidence Democratic strategists are planning on a “BUT TRUMP!” strategy for the mid-terms?”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Is this one of those things where someone will show a campaign doing that and the response will be a “but not *ALL* campaigns are doing that!” defense?

                “I didn’t ask if *A* campaign was doing that. I asked if *DEMOCRATIC STRATEGISTS* were planning on it!”

                Like, is the only evidence that you’ll accept is leaked internal emails from David Axelrod?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                Do I have evidence from campaigns that haven’t occurred yet? No, no one does. We have evidence of Democratic strategists who ran on a “BUT TRUMP!” strategy after Trump left office. You said,

                Well, when running against Trump, “BUT TRUMP!” seems like a reasonable strategy.

                It’s 2022. No one is gaslighting anyone.

                Was Trump running in 2021?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                No. So, again, in response to my question about future elections, you spoke of a past election.

                Consider me unconvinced.

                So if you want to chase the supposed bogeymen that is Democrats using a potentially flawed election strategy of “BUT TRUMP!” well, so be it.

                But, the recall doesn’t seem to have been opposed on a “BUT TRUMP!” level. And if it was and if this recall shows that “BUT TRUMP!” is indeed a failed strategy, GOOD! I want the Dems to run on something other than “BUT TRUMP!”Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                You asked for evidence about future elections. What would convince you, that doesn’t violate one of Einstein’s equations?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Well then maybe just maybe folks shouldn’t talk so confidently about all the dumb things the Democrats are going to do.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                That’s between you and DensityDuck. I’ve given one reason for thinking it’ll happen, and Chip’s comment is a second hint. But it is speculation at this point. Let me ask you, would you be surprised if it happened? I’d put it at a 90% chance that any given Senate ad will try to associate the Republican with Trump, somewhat less for the House.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                If a candidate goes out of his way to associate himself with Trump, then yeah, it’s a fair line of attack.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Could you convince Kazzy that there are liberals who think that way? He doesn’t seem to think so.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Here’s what I’m seeing. Correct me where I’m wrong.

                This whole SF board thing happened. Okay.
                Jaybird wrote a piece in part where he said, “This is a warning to the Dems to not run on a “BUT TRUMP!” platform.” Only, I don’t see any evidence that the recall opponents argued “BUT TRUMP!”

                The whole premise just seems flawed.

                Will Dems run on “BUT TRUMP”? I don’t know. Neither do you.

                If they do, will they succeed? Probably not but, again, who knows.

                Should they? I don’t think so for a host of reasons, none of them related to the SF board.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                You want to know where you’re wrong? Jaybird didn’t write a piece in part where he said, “This is a warning to the Dems not to run on a ‘BUT TRUMP!’ platform.” He didn’t. He emphatically, thoroughly didn’t. Some liberal OT’ers responded to his article with the usual Jaybirdbashing, and he, responding to them, discussed how they respond to articles like this. He never said anything relating the school board vote to “BUT TRUMP!”. There’s a meta-conversation on this site, dozens of them really, and one of them involves how Jaybird is bad, and another involves Democrats and their reaction to any criticism. Meta-conversations have value, but you can’t simply pretend that they’re what’s written in this or any other particular article.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                Well, kinda.

                My conclusion to the piece involved looking at where Matt Welch said “One of the most definitive conclusions about the recall is that the ‘blame Donald Trump’ strategy just will not work anymore for embattled Democratic politicians” and where Clara Jeffrey said “They prioritized performativeness over performance, and they brushed away any critique as coming from people who were insufficiently radical.”

                I saw that these two articles from two somewhat different perspectives agreed on this part of the narrative.

                My conclusion was:

                A silly little election about San Francisco school board doesn’t necessarily mean anything at the national level, of course. But if there were anywhere in the country where stuff like accusing anyone opposed to Progress as being allies with Donald Trump would work? I’d say it was there. And it seems to have stopped working.

                Now, hey. Maybe both Matt Welch and Clara Jeffrey are wrong! Maybe Gaybraham Lincoln was wrong about what the opposition was saying about supporters of the recall! Maybe they were all lying!

                But I’m assuming that they’re telling the truths that they see from their particular perspective and we can take them at their word.

                Now, I wouldn’t say that this is a warning to Democrats. Any more than Clara Jeffrey was warning Democrats or Matt Welch was warning democrats or the San Francisco Chronicle was warning democrats or Gaybraham Lincoln was warning democrats.

                Now I do think that stuff that used to work has stopped working.

                But that’s not a warning.

                The warning would be against people who read the articles from the SF Chronicle, Reason, and Mother Jones and started saying “this happening was good but local issues don’t matter on a national level, I don’t need to change, Republicans are worse, and I can use slurs if I want.”

                If that started happening? Yeah, I might start thinking about warning people.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Kazzy says:

                It seems that the Dems are currently running on a “democracy is in peril/worse than Jim Crow” platform which is a variation of the “But Trump” platform.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to John Puccio says:

                Our democracy is in fact, in peril.

                If you want to handwave that away as a “but Trump” is up to you, but it doesn’t change the basic fact that the Republicans have come out forthrightly in opposition to democracy.Report

              • While I wholeheartedly disagree with you, I appreciate you confirming my point: The Dems are still running against Trump.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to John Puccio says:

                It’s probably more true that the Republicans have no other message than “Trump!”

                I mean, literally, that’s what their party platform says.

                They have no fixed principles, no ideas, nothing other than “Trump!” which itself is just a white male grievance and entitlement.

                Cruz, De Santis, Abbot, Youngkin…whether they talk about CRT or trans kids or chinamen in coolie hats, the message always just sounds like it is a Trump rally speech of grievances and sulking.

                So if someone says “Dignity for all persons” well, by definition a positive message is in opposition to a negative message.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                There’s also “But Biden!”, “But the lockdowns!”, “But the pictures of maskless politicians surrounded by masked children!”, and “But inflation!”

                That’s just stuff I’ve seen in the wild.

                “But those aren’t positive messages! They should have more messages than just ‘Vote for me! I’m not the other guy!'”

                I agree. They should.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Every one of those is a variation of cultural resentment.

                None of them reflect any sincere political idea, just resentment and oppositional defiance, “You’re not the bossa me!”Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “chinamen in coolie hats”

                beg pardon?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                It’s okay to use slurs if you’re on Team Good.

                I think I’ll let that one stand, unless there is an outcry.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Jaybird made a frnt page post about it, and references it in half a dozen others.

                Republicans are outraged that they aren’t allowed to read children’s books with images of chinamen in coolie hats.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip: That’s the second time you’ve deliberately used the slur.

                Stop it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Could I just post a picture from the Dr. Seuss book instead?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Feel free.

                But stop using slurs.

                I can’t believe that people on Team Good haven’t been telling you to knock it off.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                So…caricature of Asian man in conical hat is ok, but using the word is not?

                You really truly don’t understand why the publisher pulled that book, it appears.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                If you want to discuss the difference between “use” and “mention”, we can.

                In the meantime: Stop *USING* slurs.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Why do you object?

                You very very badly want to live in a world where I can show racist caricatures, and for people like Rogan to USE slurs without fear, so what is different here and now?

                I mean, if Rogan were to comment here, would you ban him?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Schrodinger thought that quantum mechanics was so off-base that he wrote a parody example about a cat.

                I think you’re making a perfectly reasonable point right now, and that alone should tell you that you’re communicating the exact opposite message than you intend to.Report

              • Younkin did not win Va on a Trump! Platform. The sooner Ds can stop conflating anything not part of the progressive agenda with the Orange Man, the better off they will be. It’s like y’all blinded by the spray tan.

                Independents decide elections. it’s almost always a choice between the lesser of 2 evils. Being “not that guy” is often a winning strategy. But that’s the thing celebrating partisans never understand. They think they have mandates and find out the hard way that they don’t.

                Biden was elected bc he was not Trump, not bc they thought the Green New Deal was a super awesome idea..

                The Rs are going to crush the Ds in the midterms simply bc they are not Ds. They don’t need to provide a solution. Being the alternative is enough to win.Report

              • But to the original point, while running against Trump in 2020 was a no brainer, propping up his carcass and projecting it on every other R has already proven to be a losing strategy. The problem with making Trump a modern Hitler is that it’s pretty unconvincing to say the next guy is also Hitler. The Hitler well is going to be empty for a while.

                The Ds best hope for 2024 is if Trump manages to win the R nomination again. If he does, y’all can run the 2020 strategy back.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      Its all about distraction Greg. If you can convince the good conservative white folk of Davenport IA or Bougaloosa LA that electing democrats will turn their cities into infested hellscapes, no one will notice you aren’t bringing coal back, or that tax cuts aren’t trickling down, or that industry bosses aren’t paying enough to live on.Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Philip H says:

        Well yeah that is part of the obsession with SF. It conforms to all the things conservatives know they hate. It’s red meat to keep C’s terrified. I’m sure many people now know far more about the SF school board then their own.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          Remember that school board in Tennessee?

          Good times.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

            Apples and ice cubes man, apples and ice cubesReport

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              I was just riffing on “I’m sure many people now know far more about the SF school board then their own.”

              Which, as school boards they now know far more about than their own go?

              That’s ice cubes to ice cubes.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                we don’t know about the boards though. We know about two dissimilar controversies involving school boards. that’s it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Well, I suppose that that’s an argument you can have with Greg about his comment where he said “I’m sure many people now know far more about the SF school board then their own.”

                I was merely comparing the ice cubes.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

                General comment. People spend far to often arguing about local issues as if they were national issues.

                School board members in SF are local issue. It means very lttle to nothing on a national level. What it does suggest is that the woketopus is not all that powerful. Isnt’ that part of your point. Whatever the hell the former board members did doesn’t work. Isn’t that agreement?

                If the only example of censorship was Tenn, then who the F should care. However the local thing in TN is happening in many places including states enacting laws that hit the 1st amendment. There is a national trend across the red states. That is a difference.

                Chip also sort of nails the next point i was going to make. Liberals in SF pushed back against “the wokes”.

                Wouldn’t you like to see repub’s push back on the Trump excesses or bad touching the 1stAM.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Wouldn’t you like to see repub’s push back on the Trump excesses or bad touching the 1stAM.

                I touch on this obliquely in the original post.

                A silly little election about San Francisco school board doesn’t necessarily mean anything at the national level, of course. But if there were anywhere in the country where stuff like accusing anyone opposed to Progress as being allies with Donald Trump would work? I’d say it was there. And it seems to have stopped working.

                And November is coming.

                Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

                Hmm so you “obliquely” noted something. Most jaybird thing to ever occur in the hx of history.

                ( playful teasing mode will continue until restrained cuss word mode is called for)Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                “People spend far to often arguing about local issues as if they were national issues.”

                you’re right, I mean, who cares what specific books a local school board in some backwoods backwater wants to have on their curriculum? surely it should not be a matter of national debate!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

                Actually they are perfectly comparable.

                Liberals cast out their nutcases, while conservatives embrace theirs.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think this is a completely reasonable take. Left leaning voters policed the flank in one of the most left wing parts of the country. That speaks well of them. It’s why I don’t get some of the defensiveness when people say ‘more of this please.’

                And to your point it’s not like the conservatives control their own. They just censured a Cheney for goodness sakes.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                Well that is the point. The great voting masses of the Democratic Party recalled the identarians from the school board and would have probably recalled them all if they could have. The great voting masses of the Republican Party endorse Trumpism(right nativist/populism) and punish apostates against Trumpism when the opportunity arises. The contrast is stark. GOP elites aren’t changing the subject at best or drinking the Kool-Aid at worst because they like Trumpism. They’re doing that because they fear it and its command over their voters.

                And on the left the school board isn’t the sole example. Every time the identarians go to the voters they lose even (especially) within their own party. The only place even moderate identarianism is succeeding is in deep blue safe districts and matters of staffing and communications where education matters more and the employees aren’t elected. This happens again and again from the subject school board back to Biden getting the nomination and on backwards.

                Which is why I think the right is fundamentally ill in a way the left isn’t (yet at least). The left has a problem with a noisy faction of its educated young elites. The right has a problem with a huge honking faction of their literal voting base. I would think the former is a heck of a lot easier to sort out than the latter.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                Yea, I think moderate left of center-ism is still very much in the game in a way I don’t think moderate conservatism is. Left identitarians are certainly doing all they can to destroy the institutions they capture but the lack of popular support puts limitations on the runway. It will never be remotely popular. It’s more like a tornado created by elite over production that touches down here and there to blow up something for no good reason with splash damage to anyone remotely associated.

                The conservative side? It is a runaway train. It has track running forever off into the distance with no sign of slowing down or stopping. Who knows where it goes from here? To the extent any sane people are left on the ride they show no sign of being able to slow it down much less reverse it.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Philip H says:

        I imagine it was a typo but… ?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          I have taken the liberty of changing the word to “good” (and removing the slur from your comment).

          I’m sure it was just a typo. (But, dang, an unfortunate one especially given Alison Collins’ racist tweets.)Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

            Instead of the word “good”, you typoed with a letter all the way on the other side of the keyboard from “d” that happens to be a slur for a subset of Asian-Americans.

            I changed the word to “good”.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

              I still have no idea what you are talking about. Whatever you did you did so quickly I never saw it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Philip H says:

                I had included the word in my comment but Jaybird (smartly… thank you) edited it out of there so the word simply does not exist on the page. So it does feel a little incoherent.

                There is a history here of potentially offensive language arising potentially via typo and a whole bunch of stuff followed so I think we were all just hoping to avoid that.

                We trust you meant to write “good”. You accidentally wrote something else. It was corrected on your behalf.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                I probably should have just notified the powers that be more quietly. Apologies for making more of it than was needed… just wanted to avoid it spiraling out of control.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                If you’re curious, the word was in the PJ O’Rourke article under “Proper Forms of Address” for Japanese.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

                Rhymes with “book?”Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

              We’re very pro goof here.Report

            • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

              As a funny aside, my friend was put in Facebook jail for using that word to mean sticky. No amount of words would convince him he’s the only person in the world who thinks the 2 words are synonyms.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                I never made that association, but I’ve heard that word as a noun, or as an adjective with a “y” on the end. You just made me double-check, and it’s there when you google “define: [that word]”. I know I’ve used the word with what I guess is called the soft “oo”, and I just never made the connection.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to Kazzy says:

          Saw that to. Seemed like the most obvious typo ever except for all of mine which are invisible to me.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Greg In Ak says:

            “if you can convince the [g**k] conservative white folk” is an obvious typo — even if the “k” is five keys away from the obviously-intended “d”, as Jaybird, with only slight exaggeration, gleefully points out — since an anti-Asian slur makes no sense there. The comment says nothing about Asians for or against, or even neutral, and there is no metaphorical use of an anti-Asian slur that makes sense either. (See, for comparison, “woman is the n****r of the world.”) I’m surprised anyone even noticed it. I wish I could be surprised that anyone would treat it as anything other than an obvious typo.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to CJColucci says:

              Again, I take responsibility for and apologize for drawing more attention to it than was needed. I thought leaving it as it was ran real risks. Before your time, we had a major issue here over some offensive language that may or may not have been a typo or misunderstanding.

              I wanted it corrected and should have found a subtler way to do that. Didn’t want it to be left untouched or for you to be unfairly maligned for it having happened.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                It’s okay. It was greatly overshadowed by Chip deliberately using slurs that were not typos.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Did that really happen? Ugh. I generally don’t read Chip’s comments. If he did that, I hope action is taken.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                We told him not to. He asserted his right to.

                I can’t help but think that he’ll say something like “you know what? Can you remove those? I don’t want that associated with my name” tomorrow.

                Or, you know, maybe he won’t.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Look, I’m not the one demanding that publishers print [pictures of slanty eyed Asian men in conical hats].

                That, my dude, is all you.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                See, Kazzy? He’s pleased to demonstrate that these things roll off his tongue.

                Maybe tomorrow he’ll say “You know what? I don’t want it to be so easily provable that I was the guy who said that. Could you remove the slurs?”

                And we will.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                See, this is what I mentioned before, that conservatives like to carelessly throw around the charge of racism- Like how they say “Liberals are the real racists” or “CRT is racist”.

                Because for conservatives, racism isn’t real. It doesn’t exist really, not in any significant or systemic or structural way, for them.

                So in their eyes, complaints of racism are just a grift, a scam or a rhetorical ploy that anyone can deploy at will.

                So in this case, accurately describing what conservatives want printed is racism.

                No, not the original book of pictures of slanty eyed Asian men in conical hats- that’s not racist at all.

                Just describing it accurately. THAT’s racism, man.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I haven’t called you a “racist”.

                I said that you used slurs.

                And that, tomorrow, you might want to say “you know what? I don’t want people to be able to see me saying those things.”

                At which point I will remove the slurs from your comments.Report

  15. Saul Degraw says:

    FWIW, this is an interview re Asian residents of SF and the school board recall: https://slate.com/business/2022/02/san-francisco-school-board-recall-asian-americans.htmlReport

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Already I see a problem.

      From Slate:

      Why those three members? López was the president of the board, and had adamantly defended the renaming initiative, while Moliga was the vice president. Collins became the subject of public outrage after critics dug up crude tweets chastising Asian Americans that she posted before assuming her position.

      From the San Francisco Chronicle:

      The three were the only school board members who had served long enough to be eligible for a recall.

      I’m not saying that the rest of the article ain’t good and that the questions it asks and its interviewee answers aren’t relevant…

      But my deep suspicion is that if 4 board members were up for recall, 4 would have been recalled.
      If 5 board members were up for recall, 5 would have been recalled.

      Why those three?
      Because those three were the only ones who were eligible to be recalled.Report

  16. Saul Degraw says:

    Mother Jones also a good down on why this is not a revolt against woke: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/san-francisco-school-board-recall/Report

  17. James K says:

    Overall I think this is good news for the Democratic Party – it helps to reinforce in the minds of politicians that Twitter is not Real Life and that what actual voters (contra the tiny but extremely loud activist community on Twitter) actually want is competent governance, not performative activism.

    Unfortunately, it appears so far that a large fraction of Republicans actually do prefer performative activism to competent governance and that’s a serious problem.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to James K says:

      It is only good news if the warning is heeded.

      If have seen a handful of indicators that it won’t be.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to James K says:

      Evidence of this includes the victory of Joe Biden and Gavin Newsom, and the non-controversial school boards in most large cities.
      Los Angeles’ school superintendent just took office but no one here knows about it.

      Because he isn’t posing with guns or talking about Jesus, Guns, and Babies.Report

      • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Exactly, what would you take as more explicit sign of the Dems heeding the warning that that sort of stuff Jay. And don’t say “Talking about the woke like the right talks about the woke.” Doing open battle with your own flank is by and large electoral suicide.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to North says:

          On a national level?

          I’d say that it looks like making the promises that Joe Biden promised and campaigning like Joe Biden campaigned.

          If times are awesome, this sort of thing could run indefinitely.Report

  18. Doctor Jay says:

    You know, I read the MJ piece and what it boiled down to for me was something that I would less call “performative” than I would reference Dunning-Krueger

    I mean, we have a bunch of noobs who seem to think “how hard can racial equality be? It can’t be that hard. The other bozos in charge before us just didn’t care enough. Well WE REALLY CARE and we will do stuff. And people who don’t like it are obviously trying to block our agenda of racial equality because every objection boils down to that, doesn’t it?”

    I’m not sure, but I don’t recall any black politician, of any political persuasion acting with that sort of attitude, but it’s precisely the “hold my beer” sort of attitude that one can see all the time. There’s no sense of just what the landscape is, just what progress might look like, and so on.

    I mean, competitive admission is not as balanced a playing field as one might think – ask the Confucianist bureaucrat class that ran China for millennia. AND, finding something better and selling it to the community is not so easy. Any big change carries a risk of destroying the thing that’s so precious in the first place. And that’s a step I’m sure there’s somebody wants to do.Report

  19. Jaybird says:

    A stat I hadn’t yet seen:

    Report

  20. Kazzy says:

    https://www.recallsfschoolboard.org/

    I didn’t dig too deep into this but this appears to be the primary organizers of the recall effort.

    While woke-related issues were among their rationale, they had a very robust and diverse argument and seemingly wide-ranging support.Report

  21. Jaybird says:

    If you were looking for a good tack to take on how the School Board recall was bad, actually, CNN has you covered:

    San Francisco school board recall sends a dangerous message.

    Granted. This is an *OPINION* piece and it’s not *PROOF*.

    But, you know, if you were looking for arguments about how it was bad, you can go in there and find arguments for why it was bad.Report

  22. Jaybird says:

    MattY has a take. He disagrees with the “competence not ideology” framing.

    Report

    • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

      I think the real analysis is that woke people are inherently incompetent.

      No one bathed in this stuff is able to do a job effectively. Instead of completing a task to a high standard they’re going to posture, pick fights, and spend their time focused on a bunch of fleeting, symbolic, political ephemera and agitprop.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

        What’s the right wing version of “woke” called?Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          It isn’t called anything, because calling it something would imply that there is something else from which it needs to be differentiated.Report

        • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Used to call them bible thumpers. Not sure what you’d call them now

          In any case I think a useful thought experiment is ‘are the Chinese laughing at us?’ They were when a bunch of religious nutballs wanted to ‘teach the controversy’ about evolution and intelligent design. They also are when we replace testing and advanced math with gerrymandered racial ‘equity.’ Or when we spend more time worried about whether George Washington was too problematic to have a school named after him than actually opening the school.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

            If “Woke” refers to an excessive zeal for racial justice, wouldn’t “anti-woke” just be racists? Or maybe we can broaden the term to be “reactionary” which includes the religious zealots and anti-Enlightenment types who yearn for a king.

            There used to be a saying that at least the fascists made the trains run on time. But as it turns out, no, they really don’t. The hallmark of authoritarian regimes is their staggering incompetence, where the electricity shuts off and public works don’t work.

            So your point is about right, that groups that are radical and anti-democratic tend to value ideology over competence.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              “We should call ourselves the Anti-Evil people. And the people who refuse to join up with us are, by definition, Evil! TAH-DAH!”Report

            • Brandon Berg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              “Woke” does not refer to an excessive zeal for racial justice, but rather to a tendency to see racial injustice where it does not exist.

              By analogy, consider claims from the religious right that Christians are being oppressed. Very few people in the US actually think that Christians should be oppressed; rather, opposition to right-wing Christians’ fight for religious justice is based on rejection of the premise that Christians are actually oppressed.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                “Woke” does not refer to an excessive zeal for racial justice, but rather to a tendency to see racial injustice where it does not exist.

                I’m more inclined to take the word of someone on the business end of the injustice if they can back it up.Report

            • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              The fruits of liberalism are many my dude.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

      “MattY has a take. He disagrees with the “competence not ideology” framing.”

      More of the “yes, but, RACISM versus yes, racism, BUT” argument that started back in 2016.Report