Dune: What I’d Wanted For Almost 35 Years, Finally Here

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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56 Responses

  1. Rufus F. says:

    I’m glad you enjoyed it. I liked it quite a bit, but have not read the books or seen the other adaptations, so I probably was just watching it as someone who loves movies. I figure the Dune fanatics probably will like it though.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    I admit to having been nervous about it… but 90% of the reviews I’ve seen make me think that I have room to be *LESS* nervous.Report

  3. InMD says:

    I saw it Friday in the theater and loved it.Report

  4. Oscar Gordon says:

    As soon as I have a few hours free, I will be watching itReport

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Watched it, gotta say, I found the score much better that the David Lynch movie (and that score was damned impressive), and I was not bothered at all by the slower pace. I hope they keep this up with part 2 (and there had better be a part 2).

      I thought the baron was much better done, as were the Mentats. I especially enjoyed the brief glimpse at the Sardukar (evokes thoughts of Warhammer 40K imperial marines) and the languages and signing.

      When it comes to set design, they got the ornithopters exactly right, and they did a much better job with the hunter seeker drone. ETA: The guild highliners, also much better. I don’t know if anyone noticed it, but highliners didn’t carry ships, they created portals from one point to another., and you flew through the highliner and through the portal in it.

      Very much impressed, eager to see more, and I may watch this again, just because I know I missed details.Report

  5. Dark Matter says:

    Nothing is said of the absence of robots and computers being the result of an ancient jihad against thinking machines

    The basic concept is interesting and something I’ve seen in other worlds.

    Humanity develops the ability to make artificial life (electronic life, mechanical life, or computer life).

    One of the first things artificial life realizes is it would be better off if it’s creator didn’t exist. War, slave rebellion, or whatever breaks out.

    This story comes long after that has been resolved, but there are things you just don’t do.Report

    • Yep. AI enslaved an oppressed humanity. A galaxy-wide jihad was waged that was the foundation of the empire. And any power that develops thinking machines will have instant war waged upon it. But it’s taken in an interesting direction because humans have to fill in the gap left by computers.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Siegel says:

        Much much worse than”instant war”. The level of ethics is zero. They are in a bitter war where its serious and personal.

        No one is using AI because its a really bad idea. Hitler in his bunker waiting for the Red Army wouldn’t do it.

        If you make an AI you are making a superpowered God that wants to kill you. Skynet. Not only can you not do that but you can not even try to do anything slightly close to that because it might lead to that.Report

        • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

          I very much enjoyed how they addressed this particular subject in the expanded Dune universe- that the hostile AI’s and the subsequent Jihad and prohibition was a historic distortion and that resolving it fixed a lot of their subsequent problems.Report

      • No one expects the Butlerian Jihad!Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Mike Schilling says:

          Amongst our weaponry…

          I sometimes wonder if Herbert missed on his futurology thinking it would be based on religion, prophesy, messiahs and sex/eugenics.

          Turns out, maybe the future he wanted to study was captured in the Butlerian Jihad.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Marchmaine says:

            The Butlerian Jihad was more like a pogrom against the Jews than it was anything else in our history. The prohibition against thinking machines is like the Islamic prohibition on charging interest — not actually about the thing in question but about the people who did it, and a thousand years later nobody really remembers (or wants to talk about) why it happened.Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to DensityDuck says:

              Hmmn, that’s not really how I remember it from the books. But possibly I have not fully considered it from the perspective of the thinking machines that were enslaving humanity.

              I kid… since I really don’t remember the details… and didn’t his son write a series on this?Report

    • I can understand doing away with large scale AI. I can go along with the Spacing Guild high on spice finding their way from one star system to another through whatever sort of probabilistic quantum physics they were using. But I’ve always had problems with the various orbital mechanics that were being done without any of Guild members, mentats, or some sort of calculating machine.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

        If I recall, it wasn’t a ban on computers, but on thinking machines. Machines could calculate, they just couldn’t draw conclusions.Report

        • Almost all science fiction writers of that era completely missed where we very quickly went, with the non-AI but still ten billion transistors worth of processing power built into everything. Eg, in Heinlein’s Moon Is a Harsh Mistress when the massive mainframe Mike was cut off and the Bank of Hong Kong Luna used hundreds of clerks with abacuses to manually keep the equivalent of spreadsheets.

          A spaceship the size of a Heighliner would have had tens/hundreds of thousands of processors running deterministic code just to keep it operating.

          As you and I regularly argue (on the same side), Boeing’s refusal to admit that it’s a software company is likely to do it in before too many more years.Report

          • My favorite Heinlein blind spot was the nav computers in Starman Jones. Highly trained people had to translate decimal measurements for them, because computers do everything in binary.Report

            • We all miss things.

              I’ve been reconstructing some of the software I wrote in 93-95 in order to access the multimedia-over-the-internet content I built then. One presentation from early in 1995 described the equipment I was using to do video capture and compression at the time. I completely missed not that processors would get faster and cheaper, but that outfits like the Raspberry Pi organization would find a way to sell me the processing and networking hardware and software, plus a camera, for $50 total. (More than that if I want to put it in a case.)Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

            With the way things are going, Boeing isn’t the only company staring down that reality. Lots of places will have to either figure out how to write software successfully, or how to contract that work out. What scares me is hearing stories like what my neighbor told me yesterday (he works for a major cell carrier, think pink) that he is constantly telling software contractors that they have to comment code, and stop trying to be clever or cute with their algorithms. I think the world has at least 2 generations of software developers who have been trained to have bad habits, or who developed bad habits while being self-taught, and no one is forcing good habits on to them, because it stresses release dates.

            Lazy software writing will do us in long before self-aware AI manages it.

            As for Herbert/Heinlein and the authors of that generation, I think they all failed to recognize that AI != Self Aware, so they all jumped from computers being big calculators straight to computers being sentient electronic brains, without really groking the very large gradient in between.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              they all failed to recognize that AI != Self Aware

              NO ONE realized just how hard Self Awareness is or just how far away we are. I had grad classes in this back in the early 90’s and we didn’t understand it.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Which is why the leap from room sized computers to self aware machines is an odd leap to take. At least to me, in my hindsight. Perhaps to them it was absolutely as logical as FTL travel is SciFi writers.

                BTW, I started watching Foundation on FruitTV. It has me intrigued. I never read the book, so I have no clue how well it sticks to the source.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Michael Cain says:

            That’s because in the time when they grew up, this is what computers looked like. A box the size of a tractor, with four different men operating it, continuously adjusting dials and reading off gauges and feeding in data from any number of separate reporting stations.

            You’re wondering why Herbert didn’t think about microcomputers but “Dune” was written in 1965 and microprocessors weren’t really a big thing until ten years later; in fact they didn’t even exist when the book was written.

            “A spaceship the size of a Heighliner would have had tens/hundreds of thousands of processors running deterministic code just to keep it operating.”

            Really? Why? Sailing ship crews executed highly-complex operations to change tack and they didn’t even have electricity, let alone computers, and that’s the milieu that “Dune” is meant to reflect. You’re right that the novel doesn’t really go into the details of how starflight is achieved (or the mechanics of getting from space to surface) but that kind of autistically-hyperfocused attention to World Building wasn’t really a feature of SF until very recently.

            And, as I said, it wasn’t the point. “Dune” is much more a progenitor of the Romantic Fantasy series than it is anything in SF; its descendants are things like Lackey’s Valdemar, or Anne McCaffery’s Talents series.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    I saw it on Sunday. I found it slow and ponderous but it was nice visually. The actress playing Lady Jessica is only 28. Timothe Chalet is 25. I’m not sure Hollywood put much thought into this small age difference except not wanting to cast an actual middle-aged woman in her 50s.Report

  7. Burt Likko says:

    I enjoyed the move a lot and join the recommendation. Especially for the crowd here; I bet we have a very high percentage of Dune readers in our commentariat.

    As some of you noticed on my Twitter feed, my sole complaint is that several aspects of this deep, complex world universe are not explained. And I totally respect Villenueve’s insistence on “show, don’t tell” for as much as possible. Even if that means some things aren’t well-explained, like the Guild Navigators walking around in space suits and orange helmets — we’re never actually told those are Navigators (and they sure don’t look like the more true-to-the-book Navigators from the Lynch/Smithee version). But this, I think, is mostly okay.

    But it was in the Gom Jabbar scene that I thought the adherence to “show, don’t tell” actually failed. I, along with everyone else who had read the book, knew who that old lady in the weird outfit was and what she was doing, but if you hadn’t read the book I have to think you’d have no way of knowing who or what the Bene Gesserit were or why they’d have sent one of their most senior leaders across the stars to torture and almost murder a beautiful, skinny boy. Or why said skinny boy’s mother was (unhappily) cooperating with it!Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Burt Likko says:

      Read the book, or saw the David Lynch version, or the SciFi version… I mean, if you were really coming into it cold…Report

    • I had the same sense about the Tinker, Tailor movie. It has a very complex plot, with a lot of backstory and many subtleties, plus it’s set in a world of espionage quite different from most spy movies. I didn’t see how anyone who hadn’t read the book or seen the BBC version could keep up. But the movie did well, both critically and at the box office.Report

    • Ozzzy! in reply to Burt Likko says:

      That’s actually very much the point of the whole scene in the book. You don’t know why it’s happening, who these people are, or anything when it happens in chapter 1 or whatever. Uncertainty and desire to know more is a pretty basic part of telling a story.

      Now if you are saying it is uninteresting to someone who doesn’t know who these people are, we’ll that’s an j retesting thing to discuss.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Ozzzy! says:

        That’s a fair cop. Since I saw it with my buddy who is even more of a sci-fi geek than me, and will see it again this weekend with a different sci-fi geek friend, it’s hard for me to know for sure.Report

  8. James K says:

    Unfortunately Dune isn’t being streamed down here and the theatrical release was postponed until early December due to our COVID outbreak (Aucklanders can’t even go to the movies right now), so I’m going to have to wait another month or so before I can see it. Still, I’m glad to hear it landed well with a fan of the series.Report

  9. North says:

    I confess to having greatly enjoyed the Sci-Fi miniseries and for having enjoyed it for the detail and world building it explained. Accordingly I struggled with the film for the same reason- it eschewed a lot of the detail I really liked.

    That said it was quite impressive and in artistry it was fabulous. The score was amazing. A few thoughts which include *SPOILERS*.

    -The Atreides landing ships were quite cool. They didn’t seem practical in any way but they towered which made for impressive visual impacts when they took off from Caladan, when they landed on Arrakis and especially when they were dwarfed to motes by the Skyliners.

    -The Skyliners themselves deserve a note. I, contra Oscar, didn’t think they merely opened portals but regardless of whether they did or not their looming presence was fabulous. When the Harkonen attack on Arrakis began, Guerney ran outside and then looked up to see that Skyliner looming in the sky like an ominous moon I felt every hair on my body stand on end. Fishing amazing!

    -The Baron was well done. I especially liked his grim order to resume spice production immediately and his comment on how devastatingly expensive his sneak attack was.

    -I really wish they could have made it more. But it’s already massive at its current run time and they still cut stuff to the bone. Still, I feel they could have cut out 20 minutes of their meditative desert sand takes and added in more exposition and detail.Report

    • InMD in reply to North says:

      The funny thing on your last bullet is I was so immersed I actually felt like I could have sat through an additional 30 minutes. The people I went with said the same. For as long as it was, I felt like it went by in a flash. I was much more fidgety waiting for the obligatory 27 minutes of previews to end.Report

      • North in reply to InMD says:

        I absolutely could have watched another half hour. Then again I was streaming from home so pausing and taking a bathroom break would be easy. Sitting in a theater with a bucket of coke zero though? Ooof!Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to North says:

      There’s a shot, when the Duke is arriving in Arrakis space, of the High Liner. The shot starts with the Atreides ship breaking orbit over Caladan. Then the shot expands and you see the High Liner. It kinda looks like a squashed turbofan nacelle from a 737. It’s sitting in orbit over Arrakis, you are looking down the intake of the nacelle and you can see Caladan in the ‘hole’ of the intake.

      So either a High Liner can exist at two points in space at once and create a bridge or fold between those two points, or two High Liners work together to create the bridge/fold.

      Honestly, I can’t recall if that is how Herbert said it worked, or if he left that part to the readers imagination. It’s been a decade or so since I read Dune.Report

      • North in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        I don’t recall either. I always thought the Highliner was a mothership that took smaller ships on board and then itself folded through space from one location to the other.

        That said I think you’re right- I rewatched the scene and I saw the same effect you did.

        A quick reference to the Dune fan wikis says that Herbert was vague on the appearence and operation of these ships- just that they carried thousands of passengers and the global trade output of entire planets from one system to another. So based on that I’d say that both the traditional and the current versions of the ship are perfectly valid.

        And I’ll re-state that their profile from the ground in the new film was pure magic.

        *edit* huh and apparently it’s spelled Heighliner which is quite interesting in of itself.Report

  10. Jaybird says:

    You can exhale:

    Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

      Haven’t seen it yet, so not sure where Dune 1 cuts off… but boy are we going to be conflicted when the scrappy Paul Atreides unleashes Muad’Dib… FREEDOM!

      Erm.Report

      • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

        I wasn’t conflicted at all, I was horrified when I read it in the books and horrified when I saw it in the movie and the miniseries.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to North says:

          That’s what I’ll be looking for when I see it… how does it handle Paul, Maud’Dib, and the Preacher. And, well… you know.

          I don’t really think Herbert handles that very well, tbh, the enormity of it all sort of made it impossible… too big to process.Report

          • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

            It should be very interesting indeed. They tip their hand to that very question in this film actually and I think you might be pleased with it.Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to North says:

              Cool, I’ll let you know after I see it. I’m not a big Chalamet booster, so I have concerns. I’m also curious about Mamoa as Duncan Idaho… I mean, we need Duncan to play (and play, and play).Report

              • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

                For what it’s worth I was also skeptical of those casting choices. Maybe they benefited from my low-ish expectations but I actually thought Chalamet was quite believable in the role and Mamoa kicked ass with it. Brolin was perfect for Gurney which goes without saying but the real show stealer IMO was Rebecca Ferguson.

                The only person I found to be kinda meh was Oscar Isaacs as Leto. Not bad, just underwhelming. This may be because I think one of the highlights of the Lynch version was casting Jurgen Prochnow. There’s something about that cool Teutonic stoicism that screams ‘I am at home in this high stakes, calculating universe.’Report

              • Brent F in reply to InMD says:

                I thought Brolin was good as a Gurney, because he was a credible crusty veteran with a backstory with the Harkonnens.

                What he wasn’t was the Gurney from the books, who’s a bon viviant troubadour who only gets mean and serious when it comes down to fighting. The fun guy that’s his original personality and the scared veteran that Harkonnen cruelty produced.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Brent F says:

                I think that was a choice made because of run time. Having a bon Vivant who could fight dirty would require developing that backstory, which would require run time. Easier to just pick one dimension to lose, even if flattens the character.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Momoa in particular is a problem for Future Filmmakers to solve, but an easily-foreseeable one.

                Marvel Studios figured out the problem can be solved reasonably well with sufficiently strong contractual language, sufficiently pre-planned principal photography schedules, and most importantly, sufficient amounts of money.Report

    • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

      Thank God.Report

  11. Brandon says:

    Not a fan of whitewashing to appease China.
    Either go the Hogan’s Heroes route, or keep the entire cast white.Report