Obsolete Philosophy: The Role of Revelation in Religious Epistemology
As I mentioned in the kickoff post, I wrote a lot of papers in college.
This is one that talks about how there are religions are incompatible and claims to special knowledge are even more so.
The Role of Revelation in Religious Epistemology
by
Jaybird
Religion has long claimed to have special knowledge of the universe. For every one of the territories claimed by metaphysics: ontology, ethics, aesthetics; religion has a map detailing many, if not all, of the nooks and crannies within them. The problem is this: if knowledge is justified, true belief, how does one measure the statements made regarding religion? Does the universe give information to some and not to others? How can one measure truth when it comes to revelation? This paper will look at the problems intertwined with religious epistemology and the problems of claiming (or denying) that revelation has a valid role in knowing things about God and the universe.
Even before we begin, it seems we are sunk. The number of religions in the world is legion, and not all of them agree with each other (quite the contrary, really). If Christianity claims that one gains an eternal life of bliss when one does all that is required of one to do, while Buddhism claims that ideally one stops living altogether, they both can’t be absolutely right. It seems implausible is the claim that all religions are equally valid paths to enlightenment or salvation and the religion that is correct is the religion fits most comfortably. But there is always the nagging doubt that, perhaps, there is special knowledge of the universe that is available to some. How should one deal with the claims regarding this special knowledge? Beyond that, how should one deal with a mystical experience that leads one to believe that one has received special knowledge of the universe? What is the role of revelation in religious epistemology?
Knowledge And Faith
Knowledge, in the traditional philosophical sense, has been defined as justified, true belief. For this definition of knowledge to apply to religion, we must discuss faith. Walter Kaufmann defines faith as “intense, usually confident, belief that is not based on evidence sufficient to command assent from every reasonable person.” But what are the specific faith issues? They range from the simple (God is the first of an infinite string of causes) to the complex (God sent his son, in form of man, through virgin birth, to save the world by dying and then coming back to life, so that we can live forever in heaven, and so on). This paper doesn’t dare take on the more complex beliefs about God, but will take as its example the basic belief that God exists at all. For the purposes of this paper, we will not limit ourselves to the idea that the knowledge must be received by each person on an individual basis, but also that another person, or a book, has access to information about the universe that has been revealed to them by God.
At first, the most obvious thing to do is to give an a priori proof of the existence of God. That way no research need be done, justification lies solely in the truth of the soundness of our logic, and the proofs can be achieved from one’s own easy chair. When one looks at the various proofs, however, one encounters various problems. Bishop Anselem’s Ontological proof for the existence of God seems like word magic and was shown to be fallacious by many philosophers. The Cosmological argument, made ever so popular by Aquinas also has its own problems as it could be argued that it is just as easy to believe in an infinite regress of causes as it is to believe in a God. The Teleological argument was the best of the bunch but even in its most convincing formulation, it was found to be fallacious because even if the premises of the argument are all true, as an inductive argument, the strength of the conclusion rests in its probability, and not its analytic truth.
Given that the a priori proofs are fallacious at worst and insufficient at best, our knowledge of God must deal with more than pure logic. It is at this point that the “justification” portion of our definition of knowledge comes into play. How does one justify knowledge of God? We have no recourse but to go to a posteriori evidence, and make the case that the evidence is sufficient to claim that what we claim to be knowledge of the existence of God is justified. Knowing that we cannot use one singular air-tight argument to make the case, we must make a case through a preponderance of evidence, but there is a fine line between the logically valid amassing of evidence until a case can be made and having not just one argument that is fallacious, but many fallacious arguments.
We must first turn to experience. William James, the great American Pragmatist, wrote a series of lectures that he titled The Varieties of Religious Experience. In this one of a kind book, he discusses not only the experiences of the mystical that people claimed to have, but also the professed conversion experiences of people not only to Christianity, but also from Christianity. There are well over fifty examples in his book, and mentions several times that he has more, but for the sake of brevity he will give only a few. How, epistemically, are we to deal with an example such as: “I have on a number of occasions felt that I had enjoyed a period of intimate communion with the divine.” It is far too easy to say that the person in question is mistaken, for they themselves are absolutely certain of their experience with God. Another example says “God is more real to me than any thought or thing or person.” To claim that these examples (of which James has literally dozens more) are all false, or imaginary, or socially based, or what have you, seems to not take the people seriously, as they themselves are absolutely certain. Indeed, their belief in God is claimed to be one of those self-justified occurrences much like the foundationalists claim sense datum to be, if not of a more self-justified nature than mere sense data. There are, of course, any number of arguments that make the claim that the reasoning behind such “mystical” experiences is faulty and the cause is not God but anthropology, or psychology, or any number of physical causes, but that is not the issue. The issue is this: are the people who experience such things justified in trusting their own experiences?
The most obvious argument against these experiences is that of the skeptic who claims that we can not only not trust our so-called mystical experiences, but we cannot trust our experiences period. We all can think of times where we were (or someone else was) certain that we were in love when in reality it was nothing more than something our hormones or coping mechanisms were doing to us. Or a time where we thought we saw a friend in the distance and called out to them, only to realize that it was merely a similar hairstyle or jacket that we recognized and not the friend. As we cannot trust our experiences of things so mundane as seeing a friend, we cannot trust our feelings when it comes to such things as the mystical.
There is a problem with this argument, however. For every time we called to a person who we mistakenly thought was someone else, there are very probably 24 times that we called out to a person and were correct in seeing who they were. As for the love example, it is only when one looks back upon the emotions after they are long gone that one can see them as they truly were. If the object of one’s desire was to return love, and a relationship blossomed as a result, there would be no question as to whether the emotions one felt at the beginning of a relationship were genuine (immature, perhaps, but not something other than love). It seems unavoidable to come to the conclusion that if one has a mystical experience of God, then one is justified in believing that God exists.
How then should those who have not had a mystical experience deal with whether or not God exists? The answer must rely on how much we can trust the testimony given us by our religious texts and mentors.
Dr. Elizabeth Fricker of Oxford has an article entitled Telling and Trusting: Reductionism and Anti-reductionism in the Epistemology of Testimony in which the argument is made that, like it or not, the majority of our knowledge comes not from a priori sources, but from assimilating what we are told. To be true, the writer of this paper does not know that Plato wrote the Symposium, but has taken it on good authority that he did. When anyone reads a translation of a work from a language that they do not speak, they are assuming that the translator does know both languages and that the translation is an accurate one. Fricker makes the point that testimony is the font of our knowledge of things outside of our direct experience. How should one apply this fact to religious epistemology?
It could easily be imagined that the majority of adherents to a theistic religion would never have a mystical experience, but for that reason alone can it be claimed that their beliefs are unjustified? It seems that we cannot say that such beliefs are. If a person has in fact had an experience of God and goes out to talk about it, then they are giving true information (or as true as they can put a mystical experience into words). The similarities of mystical experiences across times can be explained in two ways: That the universe does have a God and that He has a preferred method of dealing with people, or that people assimilate quickly the natural conclusions of believing in a God, and act as if they have been visited by this phantom. Again, it is impossible to distinguish between the two in practice if one has not had a mystical experience oneself. Moreover, even if one has had what one claims to be a mystical experience, perhaps it is nothing more than a biological function that occurs when a certain set of circumstances has been achieved. But, in either case, if one cannot trust one’s own experiences, one cannot trust anything at all in this universe. If one cannot trust the testimony given by respected mentors and books, one must rely solely on one’s own a priori experiences, and that does not leave a person with much that can deal with the posteriori world. It seems that the role of revelation in religious epistemology is to pick up where the a priori leaves off, by giving experiences that are self-justified and can provide a foundation for other beliefs. The role of trusting the testimony of other in religious epistemology is to pick up where revelation leaves off. Of course, whether or not the claims of religion are true is what decides whether we can call the justified beliefs knowledge, but we have no skyhook that can allow us outside of the framework to see what really is going on. Unless, of course, a mystical experience is just that.
Bibliography
Fricker, Elizabeth. “Telling and Trusting: Reductionism and Anti-Reductionism in the Epistemology of Testimony.” Mind, Vol. 104. 414. April 1995
James, William. The Varieties of Religious Experience. New Hyde Park, New York: University Books, 1963.
Kaufmann, Walter. The Faith of a Heretic. Garden City, New York: Anchor Books, 1963.
Martin, Michael. Atheism: A Philosophical Justification. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1990.
Steup, Matthias. An Introduction to Contemporary Epistemology. Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Prentice Hall, 1996.
You know, the phrase, “evidence sufficient to command assent from every reasonable person” kind of means something different to me than it once did, seeing as how I have seen people I thought to be reasonable ignore and override some big piles of evidence.Report
Yeah. I read this again this last week and thought “Did I really think that this was edgy?”
But, I assure you, I felt like I was going waaaay out on a heretical limb by writing it.Report
If you really have “special knowledge” and “special influence” then it’s hard to see how you couldn’t monetize it. No one is monetizing it. Religions always need money, but can only get it by selling stuff to believers, asking for donations, and doing other non-magical things.
Even aside from money, for all the claims of special ethics, these groups don’t showcase that. For all the claims of being able to turn off the laws of physics on demand, these groups don’t showcase that either. For all the claims of knowledge, inventions come from science which ignores all this.
Other than cultural legacy, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to believe any of this is non-fictional.Report
No one is monetizing it.
Would it matter if I found a number of people monetizing it? I imagine that a single example of someone monetizing it would be enough to move us from “No one” to “at least one”.
Here’s a song from MC 900 Foot Jesus for no reason whatsoever.
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You are correct. If you can find even ONE PERSON who can get magic to work, then you get to rewrite the laws of Physics to include magic/gods/etc. This is deep into “Nobel Prize” territory and redefining reality as we know it.
One person who can walk on water, raise the dead, or even predict what the stock market will do by cutting open the belly of a ram.
That threshold of proof is very low. It has held firm in the context of Billions of people having access to media. All you need is one god, one person, or even one magic spell.
That we can’t find something like that is strongly suggestive.Report
Oh, you’re using “monetize” exceptionally narrowly.
Let’s tweak that. Given that the best things in life are free, this is a system that will help you appreciate the life you have been given, help you deepen your relationships with others, and enrich yourself through things that cannot be purchased.
But, like, that’s not the *GOAL*. That’s a by-product.Report
No, I’m really not.
Most of the Gods offer super powers on tap. Healing. Knowledge. Predicting the Future. Immortality. A super-powered friend that steps in to help you on occasion, or even on demand.
Money is something we can measure and evaluate for the amount of advantage. So if God [X] gives a bonus that does [X’s thing] then money is the way to measure the level of influence. Is my company better off going with Apollo’s ability to predict the future or Jesus’ healthcare and general “make my life better”? Does is matter which field we’re in, the needs of the Insurance industry are different than Hospitals.
No Fortune 500 has a department devoted to super-natural aid. All of them expect zero super-natural influence, not only for themselves but for their competitors.
Money is the way to compare just how effective the various Gods are, and the amount of money is zero, from everyone.
If we move the goal posts to include things like sales of bibles, then we’re also including sales of Superman comics and Harry Potter books.Report
“All those crutches, and not a single wooden leg.”Report
Doesn’t the word “supernatural” imply “unmonetizable”?Report
It’s hard to picture a “real” supernatural effect that couldn’t be monetized.
Lots of people are willing to pay for healing. Most countries and some groups are willing to pay for death.
If “predicting the future” required a virgin 14 year old cutting open a ram, then every big player on Wall Street would have “employees” who did that. If it was possible to curse someone via cutting someone else’s heart out, we’d do that less often but we’d do it. We have cold cases that could be resolved by speaking to dead people.
The effect needs to be fictional in order for it to not be exploitable.Report
You’re talking about what I’d call magic rather than the supernatural. Magic is mysterious chemistry. The supernatural is an intervention from outside the natural. It’s something beyond systemization. The Catholic Church may teach a formula for getting to heaven, but not a formula for getting a cure. Cures can happen but they come from outside the realm of nature.Report
They teach a formula, it just doesn’t work. Bible says all Prayers are granted. The problem with the one-off supernatural is it doesn’t seem to exist after we subtract human self delusion and/or fraud.
If you could predict the future 1% of the time that would be an license to print money on Wall Street. Similarly if you could cure incurable diseases 1% of the time, or regrow limbs 0.1% of the time, or even ONCE, you’d be a god of medicine.
What we’ve got is one off events that can’t be investigated and aren’t taken seriously by serious people. This is VERY different than the “super-powers on tap” which supposedly existed and which we’re told we’ll get.Report
That’s one interpretation, but it doesn’t much fit with James 4, which talks about why our prayers aren’t answered. Or more basically, with the Our Father, where Jesus’s own recommendation for our prayer is “Thy will be done”.Report
https://www.theonion.com/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy-1819564974Report
I’ve never found arguments against a First Cause to be persuasive. In fact, Russell’s response to it convinced me that there was no good response to it. The infinite regress reminds me of those Escher drawings of a hand drawing another hand, which is drawing the first hand. You can call it possible, and I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there’s nothing in reason to suggest that it is actually possible. And Escher (an entity outside the two-hand system) created them. Likewise, there’s the old philosophical exercise of trying to prove that the universe wasn’t created 5 minutes ago. It could be true, or 10 minutes, or 15 minutes ago, but there’s no reason to think that any of them are.
The relationship of epistemology to metaphysics is like the relationship of a foundation to a structure. The structure with a foundation will be sounder than without it, and it’ll be even sounder than that with a deeper foundation, and people can go mad digging a foundation and never build a structure. I’d love a be able to prove God’s existence to the standard of “indisputable”, but it is literally reasonable to consider it proven to the standard of “no reasonable position against it”.Report
The First Cause argument is God of Gaps. We don’t understand something, ergo God.
First Cause likely stems from Physics and ergo is not sentient, benevolent, nor interested in me any more than the other laws of Physics.Report
“First Cause likely stems from Physics and ergo is not sentient, benevolent, nor interested in me any more than the other laws of Physics.”
This itself is an unscientific statement.
In the event that this is, in fact, a simulation, then Physics itself is derived from sentience; whether it is also benevolent or interested in you beyond a statistical interest is speculation.
Now, whence the simulators and why the simulators, we have no idea; but worse, how are we to assume the the physics we apprehend apply to them? Or put another way, what if our physics is the tiniest derivative that they could think to program as a representative of their horribly incomplete understanding of PHYSICS?
Part of which is to say, you are epistemologically wrong in that we can even apprehend how much we *can’t* understand about PHYSICS with our derivative Physics. The tools to go beyond Physics to PHYSICS aren’t even in the program/simulation.
This isn’t “God of the Gaps” this is Philosophy of Science. Or, your notion of Physics is filling in Gaps you can’t measure, nor ever will. Which in the end is a sort of infinite regression argument for Physics that the simulation will be updated by the simulators who have their simulation updated by the ultimate knowers of PHYSICS.
And, if the simulation theory is simply silly; then we really have no idea what we’re even on about.Report
This was the example that the prof used to explain “The Horns of a Dilemma”.
He broke down the Greek for us (“double” “proposition”) and gave us the Horns (ROCK AND ROLL).
Either there was a first thing
Or things go back forever and ever without any first thing
And both of those propositions are unsatisfying.Report
Sure, That Which there is No Greater Than is the obverse of Infinite Regression.
It’s the point at which they meet in the middle that is the Mystery of Nothingness.
Not ‘something out of nothing’ but existential negation: “Nontology”Report
We thought we had him when we asked “But if God goes back forever, doesn’t that mean that there’s only one horn?”
“No.”
He told us no and then moved on.Report
Heh, sometimes you just have to say no.Report
You usually love calling out category errors; I’m surprised you can’t smell one here.
“Everything” must include something more than the sum of every “thing”.Report
This is some Cantor bullshit.Report
Simulation “theory” is non-falsifiable. Here it pushes “First Cause” back into the unknowable weeds.
“Unknowable” doesn’t result in “ergo it’s reasonable for my God to have done it” any more than it means “it’s reasonable that Odin did it”.
It results in “we can’t disprove Harry Potter or Superman but have no reason to think they’re not fictional”.
If you need to lower the evidence bar to the point where fictional entities can pass, then that says a lot.Report
You always say “eschatological verification” and think “well, that’s the last time I say *THAT*” and then it’s not.Report
The point isn’t that “God” or “Odin” did it, it’s that you (we) are unreliable narrators in a book we don’t know we’re in.Report
I’ve never heard anyone claim that the First Cause argument implies a personal, loving God, so that seems like a strawman.
As for a God of the Gaps, well, define what you mean by “gap”. If it’s that we don’t understand how the eye responds to light, so there’s got to be a God, then yes, that’s a fillable gap. If it’s that we don’t understand that which created all time / space / matter / energy / reason, I’m not expecting that gap to get filled any time soon.Report
If First Cause gives no support for a personal loving God then there’s no point in raising it if that’s where you want to end up. However it does get raised by people who want to end up there. Thus the Kalam cosmological argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument
Gaps in understanding exist and have always existed. They’re getting smaller. We used to think Lightning was caused by Thor, and various other gaps were filled with various other gods.
Pointing to a gap of understanding doesn’t support the idea that magic/supernatural did it. Nor does it support god, much less [the god I was personally raised with and not the thousands of other gods].
The point of calling it “god of gaps” is to point out that as the gaps have gotten smaller we’ve figured out god wasn’t hiding there and that should be expected in general.Report
On a side note it looks like the core foundation of the cosmological argument is wrong. We have examples in nature of particles spontaneously appearing so it is possible for stuff to just appear without a “cause”.
This is how Hawking got his Nobel and became famous, he predicted Hawking radiation.Report
OK, it looks like Craig added three steps to the First Cause argument. That’s the first time I’ve ever seen someone do that. You name it, some philosopher has tried it, I guess. Looking over his book of that name, though, I notice three chapter titles which follow the standard argument, and none that refer to a personal God.
People use the cosmological arguments because they think they’re right, not because they get you all the way to a personal God. Aquinas is notorious for taking an argument as far as logic allows, then stopping. If it doesn’t get him to his desired destination, he’ll acknowledge that, or he’ll write “theologica” across the title page because philosophy can’t complete the journey on its own.
Going back to the gaps topic, the tools we use to fill in the gaps aren’t capable of filling in the biggest questions. We can learn more about the structure of the retina, and neurons, and grow closer to a full understanding of how we see light. But those tools lack the capacity to answer the questions I’m asking about. To put it in the old terminology, natural philosophy (that is, observation and reason) is a branch of philosophy.Report
Correction: I should have been more consistent between paragraphs and said that theology (the philosophy of revelation) is a part of philosophy too, but that philosophy without revelation can’t complete a proof of a personal God.Report
Which questions are those?Report
The questions we call philosophical or religious. The ones about “that which created all time / space / matter / energy / reason”. The ones that observation and reason alone can’t grapple with, because they’re unfalsifiable by observation. Also, the ones about “oughts”.Report
“Reason” will probably be duplicated by us when we get seriously into AI or creating creatures. We used to think there was a massive difference between organic and inorganic material (and god created it was in the former); Then we found we could change one into the other. The distinction between reason and not-reason will be a thing until it’s not.
One you didn’t mention was the creation of life from non-life, that will have to wait until we explore the galaxy and see what experiments mother nature has run on other planets.
For the others, my expectation is when we add up all the forces in the universe we find they cancel out. The universe will be Hawking radiation on steroids. We already have particles coming from nothing without cause and Nature likes to repeat.
More importantly, time / space / matter / energy / reason are real-world things and thus part of science. Pulling gods into a discussion on the origin of time seems an effort to justify faith and unlikely to add to science/knowledge.
And I don’t know what the “oughts” are.Report
Counter-intuitively, perhaps, I’ve always felt the ontological arguments will always be recursive (maybe not the right mathematical description given their use of formal logic, but let’s say recursive in that ontology presupposes ontology); the existential contemplation of Nothingness common across several different Religious Philosophies is an interesting area of conflict and mystery.Report
My first thought is, anyone who writes the words “recursive in that ontology presupposes ontology” should be locked up. Beyond that, I don’t mind a little circularity. It’s dangerous, sure. If you say that A proves B, B proves C, and C proves A, then you’re not “proving” anything perfectly. But you’ve described a system where A, B, and C don’t contradict each other, and if A, B, and C can be observed in reality, then you’ve got a system that stands up to scrutiny. Like I said, you can always dig deeper to make a better foundation, until you end up on the side of the road weeping because no foundation is going to be perfectly secure.Report
I think a strong case could be made for locking those sorts of people up… I’m not saying (exactly) that the arguments are circular, but that some Axioms Are-that-they-Are. And when logicians/mathematicians go after them, they founder on this nexus. Such that Plantinga (with whom I overlapped at ND, and had the pleasure of knowing casually and understanding not at all) takes a somewhat nuanced position that the rationality of the logic is the proof itself… not the proof.
And I’m sure I’m butchering that for professionals, but good enough for a combox.Report
I’m interested in how it is recursive (or something like recursive). What do you mean by ontology presupposes ontology? That existence (e.g., of God) presupposes existence of the mind that conceives of God? Which presupposes an origin of mind? Or something to that effect?Report
The existence of Quantum Mechanics and the Waveparticle duality of Light strongly inclines this universe to be part of a simulation (the explanation of which delves into data theory and the principle of parsimony). And it’s unlikely to be the first simulation, either — it’s too well-done for that (it stores data too neatly).
Honestly, we shouldn’t be surprised that G-d is a physicist and computer programmer.Report
I think I touch on it above… It’s well before we get to God and Other Minds (so to speak).Report
Ah, i see, the obverse of infinite regression, meeting in the middle at nothingness?
I think the 20th century versions of the argument get around this somewhat, in that they’re less dependent on the idea of a greatest being, and center on necessity, contingency, and impossibility, but I could be missing part of what you’re arguing.Report
Yes, it was interesting to me to see that there are ongoing debates and books from the aughts and even the teens hammering out the formal logic. But for me, formal logic is the area of the map specifying there be dragons.Report
I think one of the essay’s several first mistakes is that no one defines what is a mystical experience or communing with the divine.
There’s a difference between perceiving the image of a burning bush, let’s say, and looking onto the Grand Canyon and feeling ecstatic (see: for instance, the Stendhal syndrome). A lot of people that say they felt God in X or Y occasions describe things awfully similar to what new fathers describe when they see their child being born. But the birth of a child is not a mystical experience for purposes of the essay. Is it? In practice, the person having the mystical experience is the one making the call *IF* what he went through was a glimpse of the divine, or a great esthetic or emotional experience, or a deep moment of relaxation, or something else.
We interpret the world around us based on the patters in our minds. Certain people, whose mental map has a God(s) pattern embedded, will interpret what happened to her as an encounter with or an inspiration directly from Allah, or Athena, or the Great Buffalo. Others would interpret it as something else, without any reference to the metaphysical.
We all create the Gods in our image.Report
I kinda touch on it in the “We must first turn to experience” paragraph.
If I had to define it, I’d say “it’s if the person describing it says it was”. Like in the example from William James:
Did that person commune with the divine? I dunno.
Did that person have a mystical experience? I dunno.
But to say “no” seems improper.
For what it’s worth, *I* had one, once. But it was an atheistic one.
Now, do you know whether I had one?
Nope. But here we are.Report
Perhaps what I am missing is the fifty examples, to parse what sounds like an emotional experience from what sounds like a supernatural one, to what sounds like a psychotic one.
Me, I sometimes suffer mild episodes of bipolar disorder (it’s a family disease). I’m also a lucid dreamer. In the middle of suicidal thoughts or a manic episode, a voice behind my ears says: “pay no attention. It’s only a temporary lithium deficiency”. The same voice says: “I’m no longer enjoying this dream” in the middle of a nightmare, and monsters suddenly turn into puppies. I’m afraid if the Archangel Gabriel themselves would appear in front of me, my inner voice would say something about not eating those old leftovers from the fridge again in the future , since they obviously are growing [psychotropic] moldReport
Varieties of Religious Experience was one of the books assigned for the class and I read it.
I don’t have my copy handy… do I? Lemme check my shelves… Nope. But wait! It’s in the public domain! Yay 1917!
Here’s a PDF copy (warning: PDF).
Jump down to page 58. He talks about some of the answers given in interviews with people who have claimed to have religious experiences.
I suppose we could wave all of these away by saying “oh, it’s just the brain acting up.” An undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato.
But that seems to come from a place that says “these experiences are not possible and, therefore, we need to come up with a plausible explanation otherwise”.
If there *IS* the possibility of Religious Experience, what would it be like for a human to have it? Well, I can’t help but imagine that it would be something recognizably describable as a Religious Experience. And, if so, we’re stuck with people saying “I had something happen” and comparing stories between the groups of people.
Is there a lot of dross in there? Hells yes, there is!
Is there any gold? I dunno.Report
Has the internet taught you nothing? If you don’t know something, look it up.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26631541/Report
There’s a cart/horse problem there.
X -> Z
Y -> Z
So you find someone who has Z. You can’t say “therefore X” and you can’t say “therefore Y”.
All you got is Z.Report
Since you bring up James (man, those Gifford Lectures have really turned-out interesting works) … his section on Mysticism (p.369++) is worth reading… it covers Christian and non-Christian mysticism and it’s initial tone is somewhat different than the first 400 pages of what we might call ‘supernatural’ experiences… things that happen TO people vs. things that are DONE by people and are repeatable. Not easy and not by many, but not unstudied.
In fact, even popularizer Michael Pollan is jumping in the game with his psychedellics and pondering the connection between altered conscious states and mysticism – which is not to say that I think Mystics are using psychedellics, but that they are able to alter conscious consciously.
Now… in all Religious settings I’m passing familiar with, Mysticism and its practices are recognized as potentially dangerous and ‘regulated’ with important guidance and instruction. I believe this is wisdom that is real and learned through very hard experience. It’s not woo woo to be undertaken lightly.
That said, I anticipate further ‘Scientific study of Mysticism’ if that makes sense, and while I don’t expect it to prove anything, I expect it to sort of, well, mystify.Report
The number of philosophers that were friggin’ everywhere in the 90’s that you never hear about anymore makes me wonder if I was in a bubble back then.
I mean, even more of a bubble.
James was the quintessential “American Philosopher”. Whenever we talked about Philosophy, we made distinctions between “Philosophy” and “American Philosophy”.
Real Philosophy happened on the Continent, I guess.
We touched on Pollan, if I recall correctly. The professor walked on eggshells to avoid telling us how many drugs he did at our age but merely explained that mysticism and psychedelics were both wandering away from Normal. It’s not that they were comparable!, he urged us to understand. They’re not! It’s just that they’re both “away”.
He grudgingly conceded that there might be people who would benefit from mysticism but don’t know how to leave who would benefit from psychedelics first. BUT IT’S NOT A REGULAR THING!
Start them out on salvia divinorum and tell them it’s all like that, that’s what I say.Report
There’s also the internalism/externalism issue. Suppose you are an externalist (lots of people are nowadays), then you think that the things which make your belief justified need not be accessible to you (internalists think they must always be accessible at least in principle). So, externalists may distinguish between experiences of the divine (i.e. religious experiences that are genuinely caused by God or any similar being) and pseudo-experiences. Of course, while the pseudo-experience and the genuine article are indistinguishable from each other (from within), only the genuine article confers justification.
Similarly, an externalist account of testimony says that only testimony from people who are reliable about the subject-matter confers justification. The thought here is that testimony merely transmits whatever justification the testifier possesses. In that case, the testimony that originates ultimately from the guy who had the genuine religious experience confers justification on the resultant belief while testimony from those who had a pseudo-experience does not.
This makes the issue of multiple incompatible religious experiences moot. At most one of them is the genuine article. The fact that we cannot tell between them is irrelevant. That only means that we don’t have a decision procedure about how to form beliefs about God. If some religious belief has the right pedigree, then it is justified.Report
One of my professors introduced the term “skyhook” to us. It’s a tool used in climbing and he drew one on the board for us. The tool is used to have someone from below hook onto something that he cannot see and can then pull himself up.
(Here’s some pictures that are close to what he drew for us.)
“We have no skyhook”, he concluded.Report
I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, to find Kaufmann in there ;). Cool to see James get some play, though.
Coincidentally, I read a paper a few weeks ago about skeptical arguments — similar in different ways to the Pyrrhonians in some senses, and to later Enlightenment skeptics in others — in early Christianity and middle/late Byzantium, all aimed at fortifying the role of revelation over and against human reason (and philosophy in particular) in the seeking of Truth. It was interesting, to me at least, to think of early and medieval Christian writers advancing philosophical skepticism in the service of revelation, when today (and for a couple hundred years, really), it is so often employed against religion.Report
His philosophy is even better than his translations.
Philosophical skepticism is useful against power.Report