Wednesday Writs: Michael Avenatti Chalks Up a W Edition

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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43 Responses

  1. Jaybird says:

    The Avenatti thing.

    Quick question: in his next trial, could he pull the old “I can’t believe the Prosecution looked at this stuff. This is an obvious violation of attorney/client privilege!”?Report

  2. Oscar Gordon says:

    WW2: CSI may have been entertaining, but I think we’ll be feeling it’s effects for a very long time. Also, IMHO, police should not have ‘crime labs’. If something needs to be looked at for chemical or DNA analysis, it should simply be sent to a lab and the technician (hell, even the lab itself) doing the work should have no knowledge of the case. You just get a package with evidence and a request to look for evidence of X, or to isolate and prepare DNA data, etc.Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    WW4 & 5:
    This is what I keep harping on, is that the face of tyranny often appears innocuous and banal even to those living in it. If you were to visit Hong Kong and Belarus today you wouldn’t see anything unusual or abnormal, and in fact, you would probably meet plenty of people who enthusiastically support their respective governments.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I’ve noticed this theme. My main concern has been that you seem to overestimate the percentage of winners under communism. A regime can start out pleasing or being sufficiently unobjectionable to many, but there’s nothing in a totalitarian system to keep it from pleasing fewer and fewer.

      Beyond that, your lack of interest in limiting principles in a governmental scenario makes you more likely to end up on the wrong side.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        This is axiomatically true for every tyranny, that it starts out popular then ends up hated.

        Another observation I’ve made is that every tyranny is a net increase of liberty, for some group somewhere.

        Yet another is that “principles” are fine, but can’t offer unassailable guidance because they are almost infinitely flexible and subject to outcome-oriented gamesmanship.

        E.g., “Limited government”. What it really means in practice is “I want a government that whose power is limited to do what I want it to do.”Report

        • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          P1 – Debatable. It depends on your definition of tyranny, whether you’d count a government which is established without popular support. But that’s not an interesting subject.

          P2 – I worry about what you mean by “group”. How few people make up a group? If the answer is “one”, then the statement doesn’t mean much. But if “group” means social class, then I don’t know if the statement is true.

          P3 – My first read-through, I thought you wrote “infinitely flexible”, and I was going to start my reply there. But adding “almost” before it really doesn’t mitigate much.

          P4 – This seems to be the destination of your commentaries on the subject. And man, it’s like dating a girl who only wants to talk about how monogamy is a tough standard. Maybe that comes up in conversation once, but if it becomes a theme, then it’s a red flag.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

            E.g., “Limited government”. What it really means in practice is “I want a government that whose power is limited to do what I want it to do.”

            P4 – This seems to be the destination of your commentaries on the subject. And man, it’s like dating a girl who only wants to talk about how monogamy is a tough standard. Maybe that comes up in conversation once, but if it becomes a theme, then it’s a red flag.

            Kind of like how, when a politician rails about “waste, fraud, and abuse” what they really mean is “A program I don’t like, that serves constituencies I don’t care about, but don’t have the stones to cut?”Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              You don’t understand. When we say “defund waste, fraud, and abuse”, what we really want is to have the funds transferred to programs that have been demonstrated to work better.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              “Limited” means when we’re looking at dysfunctional programs, misaligned incentives, diseconomies of scale, and/or regulatory capture… maybe the answer is to bring in more market and not try to get an incorruptible super-politician who will make it work. There are things the government doesn’t seem to do very well.

              To be very fair there are other things where handing them to the private market makes things go off the rails… but in general at the moment we have a ton of political promises that amount to “future politicians will find the money”.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            P1 and 2 are linked.
            The way tyrannies work is that initially, a majority wants to enrich their own liberties at the expense of a minority. Or sometimes a minority can outmaneuver a splintered majority and take power.

            But in virtually all cases, the tyranny is welcomed as a liberation by the group seizing power.

            Part of the problem is that many people think the way certain religious people do, that when evil comes it is easily recognizable and obvious and therefore simple to resist.

            But it isn’t, ever.

            Tyranny always looks beautiful and liberating from certain perspectives. And of course- why else would people embrace it, and march in the parades and wave the banners?

            And like evil, there aren’t any simple and infallible tests- it takes discernment and discussion and (most importantly for our discussion) a wide variety of viewpoints to ensure that we aren’t blinding ourselves to the ones being oppressed.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Very, very well put.

              In terms of popular evil ideologies still out there, imho we have the following: Islamofascism (or whatever we want to call it), Communism (often called Socialism but not all Socialism is Communism).

              Racism and Na.zism are so unpopular that they’re ritually taken out and beaten every now and then. They’re mostly used as rhetorical clubs used to accuse political opponents.

              In Afghanistan we’re deliberately leaving the Islamofascists in charge, knowing full well they’re evil.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Even as we speak Ayatollah Razmara and his cadre of fanatics are consolidating their power!Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                Even as we speak, women in Afghanistan are being told that they need to stay home or the local “soldiers” may do something unfortunate to them (like shoot them). That’s supposedly people who are members of their own religion.

                How they treat people who are of religious/ethnic/political minorities is best not examined.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Sadly such is the way in many parts of the world. Neither my tax dollars nor all of the latest Lockheed Martin toys put together can do anything about it. I don’t want to be overly condescending about it but it’s incredibly precious that anyone believes otherwise in the face of so much evidence.

                But hey, maybe the solution is to have a bunch of otherwise unemployable gender studies majors from the West teach Afghan women how to appreciate abstract art!Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                As weird as the idea of gender studies there is, the amount of money involved rounds to zero in the big picture.

                it’s incredibly precious that anyone believes otherwise in the face of so much evidence.

                Our record is certainly mixed, but WW2 would have turned out worse if we’d decided it didn’t involve us. Ditto the Cold War. Ditto the reformation of Japan, Germany, etc. South Korea looks like a success. Ditto Japan and Germany. The difference between Hatti and Puerto Rico is us camping out in the later.

                A huge part of the problem is these things take a VERY long time and we need to have some constant need to be there that future Presidents can understand.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I think it has very little to do with us and a lot more to do with them. Where there’s a seed (Japan, Germany) we can protect it and help it grow, or be a helping hand when the people decide to plant a new seed of their own (S. Korea). But we cannot create a seed ourselves. These people in central Asia and the ME aren’t like us and they don’t want to be like us. That’s where the story ends.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

        The “that wasn’t *REALLY* communism” issue that always bugs me is the whole “I don’t trust your judgment when it comes to your assessment of how what you’re proposing will be judged after the fact.”

        “Finally! By eating our seed corn, we have ensured that everyone can enjoy this marvelous harvest feast!”

        “What about next year?”

        (name gets written down)Report

        • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

          I’m sorry, I didn’t follow that.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

            People say, about Stalin’s USSR: “Oh. That wasn’t *REALLY* communism.”

            In the 30’s and 40’s? “Oh, that’s *REALLY* communism!”

            Any proposed system always seems to rely much more on the 30’s and 40’s thing than on the whole “sustainability” issue.

            (See, for example, Venezuela back when they were eating their own seed corn in 2010.)Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

              The reason that argument is so stupid is because the entire premise is stupid.

              Namely, that ideologies produce predictable results. That if you nationalize your industries, you will always get result X.

              This idea, ironically, is Marxist thinking. That there are universal laws of social organization, which don’t vary from place to place or throughout time.

              So collectivism in Russia will produce the same results as in Bolivia, or China or England.

              It was this idea that was conclusively destroyed in the 20th century as the majority of nations around the world experimented with varying degrees of collectivization, with a myriad of different results.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                It was conclusively destroyed, was it?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I guess in the same way that creationism was.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “It’s happening less and only in pockets!”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                There is a difference between “collectivization” and “high taxes supporting a high services gov”.

                Further how many governments tried “collectivization” and had the wheels come off to the point where food and empty shelves was a problem? Has it been tried anywhere and worked?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Britain after WWII nationalized most of their key industries- coal, railroads, steel. They also assumed control of massive numbers of housing, and established wage and price controls.

                No one starved, there were no gulags, and most importantly, the people were free to voice dissent, and in the late 1970s were perfectly free to elect Margaret Thatcher on the promise to end it.

                The road to serfdom, as it turns out, has a lot of offramps which people are free to take. It doesn’t “inevitably lead to any destination at all.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Starvation is what happens when you collectivize the farms and food industry.

                More generally, your example suggests collectivization doesn’t lead to perm problems as long as the gov is willing to listen to the people and get rid of it when it doesn’t work.

                That’s fine, but not an example for collectivization working.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      the face of tyranny often appears innocuous and banal even to those living in it.

      I think even the people living under it can have some sense that they are just by looking at “things which are not done”.

      If “insulting” or just getting on the wrong side of the powers that be is going to be a life threatening thing, then that’s a bad sign. It also strongly depends on what “on the wrong side” is defined as.

      What is the out group, how are they treated, why are they the out group, and so on. Trying to draw a line from [something you don’t like] to [tyranny: cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.] means you need to be careful to be sure the gov is actually being “unreasonable/arbitrary” and not just doing things you don’t like.Report

    • Likewise Florida and Texas.Report

  4. J_A says:

    WW3

    Because I worked at an energy firm where “everything happened”. that happened too. We were sued by our [former] lawyers while the trial was still ongoing.

    I was personally deposed by the lawyers of our former lawyers in this process, since I was a witness of the fallout, a story that’s probably worthy or its own blog post [It included me and my inside counsel trying to sneak out of the lawyers’ offices and being confronted (i.e. screamed at) by the Partner with the name in the door at the elevator lobby (our sneak out was unsuccessful)].

    For those curious, we won on the underlying trial, and the judge threw out (JNOVed) the verdict. Everything happened at that company.Report

  5. North says:

    WW6: I remain very surprised this is pushing on as long as it had. I can only assume Disney thinks S.J. is asking for too much money AND there’re some other possible cases waiting in the wings that this case will set the base line on? Otherwise why the fish would they fight this so hard, especially if the facts are as tilted against them as they seem to be? Dip the white gloved mouse hand in the petty cash till for the MCU and pay her to go away.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

      Might be an issue of “who pays”.

      You’re thinking of Disney as one entity, from one point of view that’s right but from another it’s 8.

      Marvel Entertainment made a contract with her, Disney Media and Entertainment (a separate Division which holds Disney+ ) had nothing to do with that and doesn’t want their income stream compromised.Report

    • JS in reply to North says:

      Dunno, man. Why did Disney try to shaft Alan Dean Foster over, basically, pennies.

      Less than pennies. There’s no actual useable fraction of a dollar that can represent how little money they went to court over compared to their income.

      It’s like going to court over a single dollar you owe, when you have tens of millions a year in net income. Oh wait, with a doomed case. They literally went to court over a trivial amount of money, in a case they were doomed to lose, solely on the hopes that he’d go away.

      Which was weird, because their lawyer’s time cost them more than ADF’s overdue royalties did. They were at a net loss the second Alan Dean Foster said “Wait what? I’m gonna talk to a lawyer” and they just lost more from there and they had to have known it would happen.

      So if you told me Disney was pursuing this solely out of spite, or because it made one of their managers giggle at the idea of SJ having to jump through hoops to earn her paycheck, or because someone literally lost a bet and had to, I’d believe it.Report

      • InMD in reply to JS says:

        I have no opinion on the merits of any of these cases but it makes sense if your strategy is to deter lawsuits by making the cost (which of course includes way more than money) super high for the plaintiff, assuming attorneys’ fees aren’t in play. If you have a money printer why not let it be known that you never settle for any reason? Obviously most people/entities can’t operate this way but if anyone could it’s Disney.Report

        • North in reply to InMD says:

          This also is plausible, if depressing.Report

        • JS in reply to InMD says:

          Yes, but here’s the thing — they’re picking stupid fights.

          They’re nickel-and-diming people like they’re a ponzi scheme out of new investors.

          They just abruptly decided they were the recipient of a brand-new aspect of contract law they invented called “I don’t want to pay anymore, so I’m going to pretend that by purchasing the rights from another party, I have freed myself of any pesky obligations that come along with it”. (IE: Imagine buying a house and deciding that, having purchased it, it is immune to city code. The original builder agreed to abide by local ordinances, so they can sue him if your house no longer meets code!)

          For what had to be, tops, like 50k.

          They just decided they didn’t want to pay a writer a few tens of thousands in owed royalties so they just…didn’t. Who does that, besides narcissists?

          It’d be one thing if they were bleeding money and didn’t HAVE the cash. But it’s like me banking 5k a week in savings deciding “I’m not going to pay that 10 dollar ticket for not having my insurance card on me when I got pulled over”. Just…because.Report

          • North in reply to JS says:

            Hubris begets nemesis perhaps? Which is a pity because I very much enjoy the MCU.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to JS says:

            I read up on that one and it seemed to be an e-books thing… so we again have the sub-company that made the agreement isn’t the sub-company that needs to pay for it.

            Or at least I haven’t heard about the Star Wars/Alien film rights people complaining about themselves being stiffed, it might have been just ebooks.Report

  6. LeeEsq says:

    WW4: A lot of Trump’s anti-immigration policies was based on enforcing the more malicious provisions of the INA that other administrations usually ignored or at best paid lip service too or really taking them into radical new directions. A colleague was told by a government lawyer that they are enforcing the law now.Report