COVID, PCR and The Wrongness of Alex Berenson
So, the Prime Minister of COVID Wrongness Alex Berenson tweeted this the other day:
Wow. WOW. @cdcgov only wants to examine post-vaccine infections with a PCR threshold of 28 or under.
That standard ignores 90+% of #Covid infections. The entire epidemic would have looked very different if it had been used.
“An RT-PCR Ct value ≤28”https://t.co/4G18gK8HGg
— Alex Berenson (@AlexBerenson) April 29, 2021
Berenson has, for the last few months, been feeding a lot of anti-vaccine conspiracy theories by implying that the vaccines infect people with COVID-19 (which is physiologically impossible) or that the vaccines are killing people by the busload (which is not shown in any data whatsoever). In this case, the implication is that the CDC is ignoring infections in people who have already been vaccinated by using a stricter standard for examining post-vaccination COVID-19 infections than has been used pre-vaccination. As you can see by the numbers, a lot of people are buying into this. And this claim has, for reasons I will get into below, set the crazier conspiracy theorists off on yet another round of “COVID-19 doesn’t exist; the tests are false positives” (which Berenson does not claim, as far as I know).
The implication that this document proves that the CDC is covering up post-vaccination infections is wrong. It’s as wrong as everything the anti-vaccine brigade is claiming these days. The people making this claim either do not understand what they are talking about or are deliberately misrepresenting it. I’ll leave it to you to decide whether a Yale graduate and former writer for the NYT is this confused by the simple declarative English sentences of the very document he cites.
To explain why this tweet is so misleading and the reaction so wrong requires a bit of biochemical detail. Let’s do this thing.
The document cited in the tweet is not about diagnosing COVID-19 post-vaccination. It’s about studying post-vaccine infections for purposes of genomics. As we have discussed many times, the vaccines are not 100% preventative; no vaccine is. And there are concerns that variants and mutations may evade the vaccines. So, it is critical that, if someone develops an infection after being vaccinated, we know what strain they were infected with. What this document does is lay out the protocol for studying post-vaccination infections to get the finely detailed genetic information that will allow us to identify variants and trace infection pathways.
It says it right there on the first page:
Objective: Investigate SARS-CoV-2 infections among people who received COVID-19 vaccine to identify trends or clustering in demographic (sic), the administered vaccine, or the infecting virus.
Not “identify” SARS-CoV-2 infections; “investigate” ones that have already been identified. Where the RT-PCR value comes in is with specimen selection.
Specimen selection
o Clinical specimens for sequencing should have an RT-PCR Ct value ≤28.
o If a Ct value is not available, specimens that are positive for SARS-CoV-2 RNA or antigen by another testing modality may be sent.
The invaluable Bad COVID-19 account takes put it together in graphic form:
— Bad COVID-19 Takes (@BadCOVID19Takes) May 1, 2021
Polymerase chain reaction, or PCR, is one of the important scientific breakthroughs of the last 40 years. It’s a technique that allows scientists to take small amounts of DNA and amplify them up to massive amounts of DNA for analysis. Those of you who are into true crime may find this sounding familiar. One of the many uses of this technique is to take, say, small drops of blood, amplify their genetic signature up and use it to identify victims or perpetrators in crimes. It also allows genetic researchers to amplify up small bits of saliva or tissue samples to look for possible markers of disease. In this case, PCR is being used to identify the genetic sequence of a different type of murderer: the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
When you amplify up a sample of DNA, however, there is tradeoff. Each cycle of the PCR process amplifies the sample up more. But each time you amplify it, you blur the signal a bit and some amount of detail may be lost.
Imagine that you are driving down the road in a rural area and scanning for a radio station. You pick up a faint signal that sounds like AC/DC. Turning up the volume will make the music louder. But it also will make the static louder. Turn it up enough and you can rock out to “Highway to Hell” on your drive. Turn it up too much and it’s just noise.
Most researchers cut off their amplification at about 30 cycles because beyond that, you’re mostly amplifying noise and blurring the signal too much to be useful. From the very beginning of this pandemic, conspiracy nuts have been pointed at this to claim that the COVID-19 pandemic is a hoax. The COVID PCR test amplifies the sample up to 40 times1. That, they claim, induces false positives, producing a signal that’s not there.
But this is nonsense. Amplifying a PCR signal cannot produce a false signal for SARS-CoV-2 any more than turning up your radio on static will make it play AC/DC. Amplifying may lose information. But it will not create false information.2
The reason such a high PCR count is used in diagnosis of COVID-19 is because we know what the virus looks like. We don’t need incredibly detailed information on the virus. We don’t want to know if the virus has the gene for breast cancer. We don’t want to know if it committed a crime. We just want to know if it’s there. Thankfully, the virus has broad genetic markers that are unique to the virus and do not occur in human beings. So, we can amplify it up quite a lot and still see it. The more we amplify, the lower the infection level we can detect it at and the earlier in the infection we can tell someone they have it. It’s as if you knew “Highway to Hell” so well that even hearing a single drumbeat would let you know you’d found your jam.3
However, sometimes we don’t just want to detect COVID-19. We want to trace it. We want to get richly detailed information about the specific virus in someone’s body. We actually do want to know if this is the specific virus that knocked over a liquor store. Such detailed information is how we track variants. Such detailed information allows us to track infections at the micro level, even from one person to another. And that kind of information is critical in studying post-vaccine infections. We want to know: if someone gets infected, was this the classic virus or a variant? How did they get infected? Who else might be at risk?
For that kind of research, simply detecting COVID-19 is no longer enough; we want the kind of detailed information that large amplification erases. Gene sequencing, as opposed to gene detection is far more specific and requires a far more fine-grained detail because you are fluorescing each individual base-pair. Viruses only have about 30,000 base pairs. Humans have billions. So, you can set your threshold as low as 28 because you don’t need to amplify viral DNA that much to get what you want.
Going back to the music analogy: we don’t just want to know whether our station is playing AC/DC. We want to know what specific recording of “Highway to Hell” we are listening to. So, we’re going to keep turning the dial until we get a radio station with a really good signal. We want a good signal, not a survey of exactly how many stations are playing AC/DC right now.
All this document says is that to trace the lineage of post-vaccine COVID-19 infections, they want a sample strong enough that it doesn’t have to be amplified up very much to tell that it’s COVID. That lower amplification will leave the detailed information intact that allows us to trace the virus. That’s it. The actual diagnosis of an infection, as the document specifies in its second sentence, will use the same techniques we use for everyone else.
Berenson has, since the beginning of the pandemic, been a staple of the Bad COVID-19 takes Twitter account and other debunkers. But since vaccines went global, he has been especially problematic. For example, he has been tweeting out VAERS reports as though they were gospel4 and speculating some deaths might be related to the vaccine. This is a perfect illustration of what he (and others) have been doing: making dubious claims or ominous implications that are contradicted by the very documents they cite.
I have said for a while now that we need to be vaccinating as fast as possible. In recent weeks, vaccination rates have been tailing off, particularly since the FDA’s ill-advised pause on the Johnson and Johnson vaccine. We do not need people spreading this kind of nonsense. All the information we have, from multiple countries, indicates that the vaccines work and are safe. Countries with the highest vaccination rates are seeing caseloads and deaths plunge. Israel, which is basically at herd immunity, is completely open. The one thing that can end the COVID restrictions that so many like Berenson have raged against is Getting. People. Vaccinated. And the thing that’s mostly standing in the way of that right now…are people like Berenson pawing through CDC document for something, anything, they can tweet to claim that the vaccines aren’t safe.
My thanks to my lovely wife, a genetic researcher and biochemist, who fact-checked this piece during breaks in literally running PCR tests.
- Although most are detected after 30-35 cycles or less.
- It is possible that massive amplification could erroneously bring out the genetic signature of trace contamination. For example, it could amplify up the genetic signature of skin cells from a lab technician that fell into the sample. But we don’t worry about that with COVID-19 because human DNA is very different from viral RNA and would not be mistaken for it.
- In fact one of the early problems with PCR testing for COVID-19 was that if the test was given too early, it would give a false negative because there wasn’t enough of the viral RNA for the test to see no matter how much it was amplified.
- As someone who has filed a VAERS report, I can tell you that these are not verified. The purpose of VAERS is to cast as broad a net as possible, not to engage in systematic research. If the same things keep popping up, that tells scientists what to look for. But you wouldn’t use it for actual research because literally anyone can put in a VAERS report.
Who is this Alex Berenson? Is he a geneticist, or disease specialist, or just some yutz?Report
A former NYT reporter, previously best known for a book claiming that marijuana causes psychosis and violence. It uses the same sorts of cherry-picked anecdotes and distortions as his Covid tweets.
A Yale-educated yutz.Report
HYPS, The Holiday Inn Express of higher education.Report
This is how we get attacks on free speech.Report
Berenson is free to say what he wants. The rest of us are free to point and laugh. As far as free speech is concerned, that’s all there is to it.Report
I happen to agree with you. The problem comes when nit-wits attract enough people that they damage society. “The election was stolen” would be one problem and “vaccines kill people” would be another.
We end up very close to “yelling fire in a theatre” territory.
Even start to open that door and give the gov the ability to regulate this and it instantly becomes “shut down my political opponents”, thus the problem.Report
Did I miss something in the post? I don’t believe Mr. Siegel ever called for a gov’t shutdown of Berenson’s Twitter account.Report
No one in the gov is calling for this. Nor should they, our vaccination rates are still steadily going up. https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
However if this guy is successful at preventing herd immunity, then he’s putting himself into “mass murderer” territory, and giving the rest of us a dilemma.Report
Honestly, I’m having a hard time conjuring up a rationale for Twitter keeping this account open. Nevertheless, it remains active.
As CJ points out above, Berenson is free to reap what ever harvest comes from his sowing of misinformation and bad takes.Report
I expect what he’s doing is legal. I suspect a strong case could be made that he’s killing people.
That tends to be high on the list of things we outlaw.Report
Donald Trump put himself into mass murderer territory, and other then being a sore election loser has yet to suffer any further penalty for his actions. And yes, he’s still off Twitter and Facebook, but those being private companies they are free to do what they want.
Nice Red Herring though.Report
I don’t think it’s a red herring, I think it’s a serious problem. That Trump has done the same thing doesn’t subtract from it.
Both men are clearly misusing the power of speech. We have corpses on the ground. It’s very tempting to try to shut them down and add criminal penalties.
It’s also difficult to picture the gov doing that without those tools instantly being misused. Thus the dilemma.Report
And yet the Right is still howling about the Cancel Culture of Trump no longer being on Twitter and and Facebook, and trying to tar Democrats with that outcome.
That aside, if people are “putting themselves” in mass murder territory via social media, then how should we make sure they are held accountable? Public shaming sure as hell doesn’t work anymore.Report
I’m not sure. It might be that losing an election and being kicked off of Twitter is enough for Trump… although it’s disturbing that we see various elected officials being pressured to endorse the whole “stolen election” concept (and more disturbing to see how many do endorse it).
Trump showcases just how much less than rational we are. He’s obviously wrong on all sorts of factual stuff and a significant part of the population refuse to accept that. This should raise the issue of not only what we do about him, but what we do in general. All of the previous Presidents had problems, their detractors probably had a lot more truth on their side than their supporters could admit.
Ignoring that, for your normal anti-vac disinformation spreader, it’s hard to see anything working short of penalties and legal action.
However I’m not sure we can punish our way to victory here. What do we do when a Jehovah Witness insists on dying rather than getting the blood that would save them? What do we do when they insist on that for their minor child? It feels like we’re in something close to that. This “identity” and lack of reason stuff is religion in all but name.
Now what I’d like to do is have society tell people what rational thinking is and oppose magic thinking of all types, but I think that mindset is a tiny minority and this wouldn’t work.Report
And again we see that non-judicial social accountability won’t work for these folks. Their path to remain in power REQUIRES them to adhere to and promote this fiction. Twitter bans haven’t stopped Trump or his supporters – the state of Arizona is currently wasting untold millions to do an “audit” of election returns whose sole purpose is to feed Trump’s ego so Republican state legislators can stay in power. Because they consider it a legitimate means to an end they will not be shamed. And because election security seems to be a state legislative function as well as a secretary of state function they will not likely do anything prosecutable either.
This is a real, dangerous to democracy slippery slope. What do we do about it?Report
I hate to point this out, but isn’t the fact that we’ve largely enforced a bi-partisan system (rather than allowing for a greater diversity of political parties) part of the problem?
Ideally, there would be an alternative conservative party with enough clout to make a play to step in an push the nutjobs out. But we only have one politically functional right-wing party.Report
Yes it is part of the problem. I’d be happy with a multi party system. As I’ve discussed in other threads around here, most third or fourth or fifth parties always want to start at the top with a presidential bid and not at the bottom with city councils and county commissions.Report
it’s a coke and pepsi world out there; not a lot of love for cheerwine beyond their small gang of adherents, most of whom have odd, unusual, or downright unsavory customs and beliefs (like drinking cheerwine).
a great realignment would be neat, if extremely chaotic.Report
This is fine. A significant percentage of the population questions the election, an audit is a fair request.
You know and I know what the result will be, but process is important. An investigation into the truth fine.
Now after they find out the election was fine (again), I doubt the issue will go away. We’ve looked into various religious claims over the years and found they’re not a thing and nothing changes.Report
Audits were done. Multiple audits. The AZ state senate Republicans don’t want an audit. They hired a company with no experience to rifle through the ballots and the counting hardware and announce that fraud had very likely occurred.
The firm has fought tooth and nail to avoid revealing how they are conducting the audit. Where such information has come to light, multiple errors and violations of state law for handling ballots have shown up. This week, after the court forced them to reveal some of their documentation, they were using rules that would have misclassified tens of thousands of ballots. Earlier this week instructions to examiners were changed to “put an emphasis on speed rather than accuracy.”
It is highly unlikely they will complete counting the ballots before the lease on the space expires. They have said they “hope” they can find a way to secure the election materials while the space is open to the public for multiple high school graduations over several days, then resume counting.Report
So we’re past looking at stuff (again) and even (maybe) past boondoggle and into “crimes against democracy”.
The good news is that’s probably illegal so we may have tools to do something about it… similar to how suing various media outlets for Billion+ of dollars of rep damage will do something.
The bad news is that will take time and we’re into crimes against democracy.Report
I have a terrible track record with this sort of prediction, but I predict that after consulting with their legal counsel, Cyber Ninjas’ final report will be some variation of “We found no evidence of systematic fraud. Arizona’s election was a model of security and accuracy.”Report
You assume they are consulting with legal counsel. If they had been, legal counsel would have probably told them to run, don’t walk, away from the whole thing at the start.Report
Nah – as long as the check cleared they are probably fine with it.Report
Since Election Day, there have been a (to me) remarkable number of people who didn’t appear to have spoken with counsel until they had to appear in court.
I’m looking forward, in an odd sort of way, to seeing what happens when Maricopa County sues for the cost to recertify all of their voting equipment.Report
Cyber Ninjas is owned by a True Fraud Believer.
The question is he the sort that thought he’d be able to quickly find the fraud that had to be there — or the sort that thought he’d make such a mess he could claim anything and it couldn’t be sorted out after?
Which one he is will determine how this endsReport
I’d say the second is more likely. Easier to keep getting paid.Report
That portion of the public mistrusts the outcome based on significant propaganda ginned up by the losers who crave power above all else. Those people have yet to be satisfied by the audits and checks performed by election officials of the Big Lie Party, and will not be satisfied by the results of this one either.Report
Yes. It’s like no matter how many times we discover “praying doesn’t do anything” that doesn’t convince the masses.
This is a fire, it may burn itself out. Certainly overthrowing the gov doesn’t seem to be in the works.
Big picture, considering we have a “say/do anything narcissistic billionaire sociopath with tens of millions of followers”, I think we’re doing pretty well.
We have five dead bodies but the system as a whole doesn’t seem to be in danger and the people who created the bodies have been arrested.Report
Dog in burning room gifReport
5 dead bodies isn’t even a bad weekend in Chicago, much less the US as a whole.
The GOP may be on fire, but the rest of the system thus far seems able to handle it.
If we have more dead bodies created by crazy politicians, the expectation should be that the people involved will be arrested and not that they overthrow democracy.
These are problems. They’re even serious problems. They don’t rise to the level of threatening the country.Report
If your metric for “unfree” countries is measured in bodies, then North Korea is a remarkably free place.Report
Believe it or not, the New York Times has a story about that sort of thing! Like, from *TODAY*.
Report
Those people must have really been hard up.Report
I am reminded of this poem of Shel Silverstein’s:
Report
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not.
On the off chance you are, I suggest you google “number of people killed by north korea”.
We think they have 318 public execution sites for “crimes” such as watching SK TV. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48590691
Of course that doesn’t include the people being worked to death, or starved to death, etc.Report
Wow, any nation where the government kills that many people should be considered a dystopian nightmare.
Look, the silliness here is that measuring unfreedom by body counts is that by definition, a nation is unfree when the government has no need to kill in order to remain in power.
After Stalin’s purges, the number of killings went down drastically.. because everyone got the point.
But according to your logic, since the body count went down, the USSR experienced a rise in freedom.
The threat to American democracy is in the Republican Party’s insistence on suppressing votes and rigging the counts.Report
At the moment, the definition of “suppressing votes” is a disagreement on whether or not criminals should be able to vote and whether we should insist on ID (like Sweden and the rest of the countries we call “free” do).
At the moment, everyone agrees on how to count the votes we just have Trump insisting that the count must not have been right.
Fine. I was too subtle.
The amount of political violence we’ve seen is one riot and 5 dead bodies. In a country with BLM (which is also not a threat in the big scheme of things), the only reason this even starts to look bad is it disrupted the certification of the vote.
The number of court rulings being ignored is roughly zero. The number of falsified vote totals is thus far zero. Ignoring the riot which ended with people being arrested, Trump and his minions have thus far attempted to overthrow the election in courts by following the process.
Because facts matter and the courts screen out emotional bullshit, Trump has lost (while maintaining he’s winning) and will continue to lose.
The real breaking point is when enough people become willing to throw over the table and fight. We’re getting closer to that line and Trump is certainly encouraging it, but at the moment this ends with Trump becoming a demented old man and not a scary political leader.Report
You place too much faith in people who want to cling to power in a rapidly changing world they refuse to embrace. Assuming the Arizona recount goes the way its predecessors go, there will be further moves made to toss the remaining uncooperative republicans out of office. Once that happens, and especially if Trump is not indicted by then, 2022 will be the last time we have to stop this with the existing institutions of democracy. People around you may not be willing to take up the pitch forks just yet, but do not assume others are not.Report
” everyone agrees on how to count the votes we just have Trump insisting that the count must not have been right.”
This is flatly false.
The main body of the Republican Party at this very moment is insisting that the vote was illegitimate.
And they are doing anything in their power to prevent Democratic-favorable areas from voting.
At this point, they make the voting in Bulgaria circa 1955 look free and clean.Report
ExactlyReport
We’re deep into insanity and fuzzy religious thinking, where two plus two no longer equals four. People claim they seriously believe God will protect them from all harm but their behavior doesn’t match up with that.
Supposedly we have tons of people seriously believe that an election was stolen. The number of protests is small and going down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%9321_United_States_election_protests#Pro-Trump_protests It’s a fraction of what we had in 2016.
It is normal and expected for there to be protests after the other team wins. The rhetoric is much worse this year and they’re crossing lines they really shouldn’t. Trump is making it much worse.
However if we’re going to use the anti-Bush rhetoric or anti-Trump protests as the standard and call that legit, then the behavior (although not the rhetoric) seems within norms.
Link?
This sounds like a “North Korea is free compared to us” statement of feeling rather than a fact.Report
What percentage of elected Republicans are willing to say the election was fair and legitimate?Report
What percentage of elected Democrats are willing to say not only are the Police not hunting down and killing Blacks, but Black culture plays a big role in structural racism?
That marriage rates are hugely important and predictive while microaggressions may not be a real thing?Report
What I don’t understand about guys like this: do they actually believe what they’re spouting, that they’re some brave truth-teller saying things that people who literally have the job of doing this stuff don’t know? Or are they in it for the attention and money and don’t care if it puts people at risk?
Like, I have certain expertise in certain areas. I’m a biologist (ecology), but I would not make claims about what PCR can and cannot do – because while I know how PCR works (basically), I recognize I don’t know enough of the ins and outs of it all to feel confident making claims and instead defer to the people who actually do this for a living….Report
At best we’re in “people believe what they want to believe” territory and that’s going to line up with what helps them (makes them more powerful, richer, etc).
Think of it this way, the rest of his life is fine, good, and full filling… and depends on him believing this absurdity.
Mostly we see this sort of mental leap in religion.Report
It’s not even a matter of being an expert. It’s a matter of reading straight-forward sentences describing things. I’m an astronomer and it became immediately obvious to me that what they were saying was wrong and contradicted by their own sources.Report
From the posted August 29, 2020 New York Times article titled “Your Coronavirus Test is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be”:
https://cnas.ucr.edu/media/2020/08/29/your-coronavirus-test-positive-maybe-it-shouldnt-be
“The PCR test amplifies genetic matter from the virus in cycles; the fewer cycles required, the greater the amount of virus, or viral load, in the sample. The greater the viral load, the more likely the patient is to be contagious.
This number of amplification cycles needed to find the virus, called the cycle threshold, is never included in the results sent to doctors and coronavirus patients, although it could tell them how infectious the patients are.
In three sets of testing data that include cycle thresholds, compiled by officials in Massachusetts, New York and Nevada, up to 90 percent of people testing positive carried barely any virus, a review by The Times found.
On Thursday, the United States recorded 45,604 new coronavirus cases, according to a database maintained by The Times. If the rates of contagiousness in Massachusetts and New York were to apply nationwide, then perhaps only 4,500 of those people may actually need to isolate and submit to contact tracing.
One solution would be to adjust the cycle threshold used now to decide that a patient is infected. Most tests set the limit at 40, a few at 37. This means that you are positive for the coronavirus if the test process required up to 40 cycles, or 37, to detect the virus.
Tests with thresholds so high may detect not just live virus but also genetic fragments, leftovers from infection that pose no particular risk — akin to finding a hair in a room long after a person has left, (Harvard epidemologists)Dr. (Michael)Mina said.
Any test with a cycle threshold above 35 is too sensitive, agreed Juliet Morrison, a virologist at the University of California, Riverside. “I’m shocked that people would think that 40 could represent a positive,” she said.Report
This isn’t false positives; it’s low viral loads at the time of the test. Viral loads change over the course of the infection. A barely detectable virus can become a massive problem in a few days. Or not become a problem. There’s no way to tell short of waiting for the patient to get really sick or doing more testing.Report
It’s not really a problem unless such results are being used to dictate policy/lockdowns/etc.
If, for instance, PCRs above 35 are being counted as positive infections, regardless of symptoms at the time of the test, or within the next 14 days, then you run the risk of policy reacting to signal noise.
But if such tests are just being used to inform a person that they had a positive test and they should quarantine for 14 days to see if symptoms develop, that’s just being prudent.
If there isn’t, there should be a re-test threshold. If the PCR was above, say 17, you re-test in 5 days unless symptoms develop, and it doesn’t become a positive infection result for statistical purposes unless you get symptoms or a PCR below 17.
So it depends on how a given state/county/city is using such data.Report
This is an interesting take on the CDC’s new guidelines. I presume then that COVID infections in vaccinated individuals is first determined using the high-amplification PCR test and then, after confirmation of the infection a second low-amplification test is performed?
Because if there is just one test at the lower amplification that is chosen for use because of the known vaccination status of the individual then… Berenson would actually be correct in assessment?Report