If You Wanna Make an Omelet, You Have to Break Some Faberge Eggs
Faberge Eggs were these intricate bejeweled gewgaws that the Russian czars – first Alexander III and later Nicholas II – gave to their wives as Easter presents (in Nicholas’ case to his wife and his mother after his father’s death) from the years 1885 through 1916. Most of them had surprises hidden away within, like clocks and jewelry and small family portraits. Later on, Faberge even put little automatons – windup toys – inside. There were fifty royal Faberge eggs in all. Two more were made for Easter 1917 but never completed due to increasing civil unrest. The invoice for one of the unfinished eggs actually refers to Czar Nicholas not by his royal title but by Mr. Romanov, an indicator of how his status had fallen.
In the upheaval of the Russian Revolution, some of the eggs were lost; others are missing their surprises. They may still be out there. In 2014 a man paid 14k for a gold egg at a flea market hoping to melt it down for the value of the gold inside it, only to find it was the coveted Third Imperial egg, and in 2015 the surprise from the Diamond Trellis Egg, an elephant automaton, was found in the collection of the British Royal family.
The eggs are stunning and spectacular. Here are a few of my favorites:
Basket of Flowers, from 1901:
The Kremlin Egg, from 1906, one of the few eggs that has never left Russia:
The Lilies of the Valley Egg, 1898, a plot point in the TV show Peaky Blinders:
And my favorite, created by the only female designer to have created eggs for Faberge, Alma Pihl – The Winter Egg, 1913:
One of my fascinations as a history lover is to look back at moments of upheaval and wonder where we might be if only. If only it hadn’t happened. If only, would the good things of those times, things we seem to have lost, have continued on into the present day? Might we have been better off, if only? If not for the Civil War, if not for World War I, if not for World War II, if not for seventy years of the Soviet Union, if not for fifty years of the Cold War, if not for the Cultural Revolution, if not for the shattering of norms that came out of the 1960’s, what might have happened in all those cases? Couldn’t we have found a way to keep the good and move past the bad, without the destruction?
I think the reason why this concept resonates with me is because as an intellectually curious young woman, just starting to learn about the world I lived in beyond what I’d been taught in school, I read about something called the broken window fallacy.
The broken window fallacy is a concept first described by Frederic Bastiat. Some economists maintain that destruction is actually good – not only in terms of tearing down corrupt institutions to make way for better ones, but good for the economy as a whole. Destruction stimulates economic growth, according to some, because once things are destroyed, they must be replaced, and in replacing them, money is spent and jobs are created.
Bastiat used a broken window to illustrate that this assumption is untrue, because destruction simply means that people spend money to fix broken things rather than to buy or do other things. Maybe the glazier benefits from the broken window, but the baker, the butcher, the toymaker suffer the loss of the money that went to fix the window instead. And the person whose window was broken suffers, too – they have to go without things they want, possibly even need, to pay to repair something that never should have been destroyed to begin with. This money comes from savings – meaning it ekes away at financial security in the long term – or worse still, we have to borrow money to fix the problem, which ekes away at long term financial security even more so.
Broken windows aren’t good for anyone, and don’t let those sweet-talking, savings-hating Keynesians tell you different.
You can see a living example of the broken window fallacy right now in our trillion dollar coronavirus stimulus package. We had to fix a problem that came flying at us like a brick through our window. It may have been necessary (though admittedly there’s a not-small part of me that thinks salvaging Carnival Cruise Lines was far from an economic necessity) but it was NOT beneficial. Far better would have been if the coronavirus hadn’t happened and we hadn’t spent that trillion dollars at all, since it was money our nation did not actually have.
Spending money that doesn’t actually exist simply creates a different set of problems down the line, you see. I learned this lesson the hard way when my husband unexpectedly lost his job in 2012, and foolishly imagining the situation would be temporary, I put several months’ worth of groceries and gas on the credit card. Those expenses were entirely necessary due to whoever-it-was who broke our proverbial window, but we’re still paying those debts off, still buying food we ate and fuel we burned nearly a decade ago.
That decision I made doesn’t just affect me and mine. Money goes to credit card companies instead of to the grocer, the car maker, the book seller, or into our savings account. That decision I made will likely have ramifications even into the next generation because it’s money we should have saved for retirement, that we would have spent in retirement, that we won’t have, that will go towards interest instead of anything real.
It’s inarguable – if broken windows are bad, broken windows paid for on credit – on promises of what will happen in the future – are worse. It would have been far, far better if my husband hadn’t lost his job (of course, the credit card companies may have a different opinion). This observation is as true for nations as it is for individuals. It would surely have been far, far better for America if the coronavirus hadn’t happened (of course, the Chinese, who hold 15% of our national debt, may have a different opinion).
Bricks through a window are not positive developments, not ever, even when you can pay for them outright. And just to spell this out very clearly for those who have trouble applying analogies to the big picture – resources are not always monetary in nature. Sometimes those bricks through the window are destroying cultural touchstones rather than panes of glass, and cultural touchstones are way, way harder to replace.
Wanton destruction, even if you dress it up pretty and call it “creative destruction” and claim that it was necessary, is never beneficial because it simply ruins the good things you have and limits the things you CAN have in the future because the bill will eventually come due in one way or another. And all of it serves to benefit the bottom feeders who live off of strokes of misfortune. (Not that they shouldn’t exist. Every ecosystem needs its scavengers.)
A lot of people nowadays seem to be joyfully praising destruction – both financial and cultural destruction – rather than calling out the carnage for what it is. Stupid, thoughtless, irrevocable, and incredibly short-sighted. An analogy I’ve heard bandied about is that “broken bones grow back stronger”, as if obliterating the underlying structure of something will ensure that what comes to take its place will be somehow superior. But of course, broken bones kill people; we sometimes forget this with modern medical care, but complications of broken bones can absolutely be fatal. “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” only works if the whatever-it-is doesn’t actually kill you.
Beyond fatal consequences, broken bones cause you to miss work and expend thousands of dollars in medical bills you would rather have spent on other things. Even if the original break doesn’t kill you outright, the surgeries that are sometimes required can. And I can attest, as someone who has actually broken a bone or two, my broken arm and my broken toe have not made me stronger. They weakened me, perhaps not as much as my husband losing his job did, but they did weaken me. My wounds still ache, throb, wake me up in the night reminding me of their presence, and they probably always will. A toe, such a small thing; how could such a tiny thing possibly have mattered in the long term? But it’s rendered me less agile and less able to exercise to stay healthy. It was only a small thing, but it took a toll. And none of that takes into account the 8 weeks of lost time I spent limping around taking far too much ibuprofen, unable to do a lot of things I would have liked to do during that time.
A broken bone, just like a broken window, has a long-lasting negative ripple effect that dwarfs any possible benefits like a bone being slightly more mineralized in a particular place. Far more often than whatever didn’t kill you making you stronger, whatever didn’t kill you leaves you seriously maimed and dealing with physical and financial consequences for the rest of your life.
Here’s a picture of my dad’s knee which he didn’t even break, just tore some ligaments in a bad fall and required surgery. It’s much less pretty than a Faberge egg.
Destruction has consequences.
Of course, the doctor who did his surgery may have a different opinion.
Civilization is a Faberge egg. It is not just LIKE a Faberge egg, it IS a Faberge egg. Civilization is delicate, intricate, exquisite, and rare. The reason why we look back at history and see so many terrible things happening to everyone at the hands of everyone else in olden times is because civilization is so difficult to construct and yet so easy to destroy, much to the delight of the beneficiaries of chaos like credit card companies and trauma surgeons and antifa. The Faberge egg of civilization requires great expertise to create, and its creation demands a certain set of raw materials that human beings simply don’t always have access to. You can’t make a Faberge egg if you don’t have the things that go into it – jewels and gold and knowledge and patience and time. And you can’t build a civilization if you don’t have wisdom and insight and foresight and a fundamental honesty about the nature of humanity and the awareness that the nature of humanity applies to YOU too.
Without those things you may create something, but the something may not be what you thought it would be. You may end up holding an empty plastic eggshell rather than a Faberge.
Both Faberge eggs and civilization are products of a place and time and actions taken and choices made by individuals that may not be repeatable in a different place and time with different individuals with different choices laid out before them. No one else ever created those Faberge eggs. All future generations could ever come up with were pale imitations that you can buy for $175 on eBay. Faberge eggs are a treasure that cannot be duplicated because the time and the place and the individuals involved in their creation no longer exist. Once they were gone, they were gone forever. Something different can be created, and it may even be a grand and glorious thing, but trying to recreate that particular miracle of human ingenuity will never happen again.
Trying to recreate something unique that has been destroyed is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle, only you have no bottle and the sky is clear and blue.
Now you may point out that the czars were terrible people who wielded their power in appalling ways and you’d be quite right in saying so. But look around at the kings and queens of the world – most of them the descendants of monsters – who still remain in the here and now. They’re figureheads. Beloved, perhaps, but they wield no real power. The Czar and his family were forcibly removed from power and murdered, their precious eggs scattered upon the winds, but the odds are very good that even if they hadn’t been, in the here and now they would be powerless gadabouts advocating for animal rights and against climate change right alongside the British and Scandinavian monarchs.
The Romanovs were going anyway because their time had passed. Hastening the process along gained nothing. It only destroyed. It is ok to let things, even evil things, die a gentle and peaceful death. It is ok to let nature take its course. If Czar Nicholas and his family had gone from this earth peacefully in their beds at ripe old ages, surrounded by a plethora of Faberge eggs, would the world have really been any worse off?
Because the choice was never between czars and paradise. What replaced those kings and queens who were dying out on their own anyway? Dictators. And those dictators, their brutality, their inhumanity, caused more suffering and more despair and more lasting harm than any of us can fathom. Those dictators put the worst excesses of czars and kings to shame, and they didn’t even create any Faberge eggs in the process.
Who knows where we would have been if only.
I was talking to my oldest son on the phone and he was complaining about the 20th century, how terrible and violent it was, how relieved we should all be that it is over with. And as much as I hated to pollute his optimism with the harsh light of reality I had to point out that we’re really living in the equivalent of 1920. We don’t know what the 21st century has in store for us. It may be that someday, some intellectually curious young woman will look back on 2020 and think “there were so many good things about that time, who knows where we would have been if only” while she stands over a wood stove boiling a leather shoe to feed her family and wondering what the hell going to the supermarket might have been like.
I know that those of you who believe in creative destruction, you think that you’ll eradicate only the bad things, and from the ashes, you’ll build a better civilization. But civilization is not a mythical creature like the phoenix, it is a Faberge egg, fragile, priceless, and not easily constructed. Far easier to simply maintain it.
In America 2020, the choice is not between our flawed republic and paradise. The choice is between the hard work of gradual creation and sudden, irrevocable destruction. The choice is between civilization and chaos. The choice is between having to fix that broken window or that broken bone or that broken country, versus using that same money and energy and time to build something MORE.
The choice is between actively working for good in an imperfect world, or destroying everything good in the name of perfection while just kinda hoping something better comes along.
Something better you can only imagine, something better you have no idea how to create, any more than any of you could make a Faberge egg.
If I were going to make a faberge egg, I would make one that was more in step with the current year.Report
That’s what they all say and then wonder why they’re holding a ball of tin foil with a rock in the middleReport
World War II was very bad for the British economy, but it was very good for the US economy. Nobody wanted it, nobody would choose to have that stuff happen as opposed to going back in time and paying Hitler 100K to paint for the rest of his life and keep his mouth shut.
AND, it was obviously good for the US economy, as well as bad for the UK economy. I think any answer of “savings good, broken windows bad” or the converse “savings bad, broken windows good” can’t address this reality.
However, Keynes’s writing, as opposed to the strawman “Keynes” that so many address themselves to, does encompass this.
No, borrow and spend does not make a good permanent engine of growth. It does make a good “holy cow things have gone to crap” engine of growth. It’s particularly good when interest rates are low, since you get to borrow on the cheap, and that describes the situation today.
And yes, those eggs are breathtaking.Report
I completely and totally disagree that WWII was good for the US economy. All that money and energy and hard work could have gone into infrastructure and commerce that would have been a POSITIVE gain rather than going towards bombs blowing stuff up.Report
If you look at things like employment statistics and GDP, it was good for the US economy.
You’re using a counterfactual, and assuming you know what would happen in that counterfactual. I don’t find that persuasive in the least.
Yes, that money could have been spent on other things, and I agree that would have been better, but would it have? It wasn’t being spent, what would change that? What would alter the decision-making process of people who had money to spend?Report
I remember commenting once about how much I love traditional architecture and art, all those Renaissance palazzos and Neoclassical and Baroque manor houses that dot the European countryside, of the sort which were meant to house things like Faberge eggs.
But I also have to remember where all that wealth came from, that explosion of wealth Europe saw between the 15th and 19th centuries.
It all came from straight up theft, where the European kings sent fleets of men with gun and cannon to places all over the world, enslaving and looting every place they touched down.
In those four centuries, Europe was like some vast vacuum sucking up the wealth from all the parts of the globe, and all that gold and cotton and tea was transformed into stunning works of art.
Would the world be a better place if we we blew up Versaiiles, or the Czars Winter Palace?
Absolutely not! It would be a terrible loss for all humanity.
But would the world be a better place if all that slavery and looting and appalling rampage of murder and cruelty never took place, and the wealth of the world had been left in place, back in India and the Americas and Southeast Asia?
I think so.
But then, would that mean that all those works of art might never have been created, and we would live in a world where the people of the Eurasian continent were happy and prosperous and free of Czarist oppression, but Faberge eggs didn’t exist?
I haven’t wrapped my head around that yet.Report
Yeah, imagine what Russia would be like today if, 100 years ago, they instituted some kind of national philosophy about how people ought to share their wealth instead of hoard it.Report
Then we wouldn’t have all those magnificent Soviet buildings.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/358739926539019277/Report
The problem with that notion is that the Europeans lost money doing that. When the British finally cut their imperial possessions loose, the British economy didn’t collapse, it boomed. The colonies weren’t worth the cost of maintaining them. And some of those colonies have never recovered economically from British withdrawal.Report
That’s the common story told. I’m pretty skeptical of it, as I think it inverts the causal relationship.
The theft didn’t create the overall wealth, it was the wealth that created the ability to steal. European productivity gains and technology created powerful states that could export large scale violence and steal things like gold and jewels, but it didn’t create the enduring broad scale wealth. Long term, Spain society benefited very little from all that New World gold and silver their government looted.
The looting that did have a long term effect on wealth was much more boring than precious metals, it was things like the exchange of crops. But pretty much everyone touching the global trades system benefited from that exchange, not just Europe.Report
The looting was, as you say, just one part of the massive robbery.
For instance, the American continent itself was stolen, as was the labor of the slaves who built its wealth, creating the transoceanic trade.
For almost any European nation, its wealth was derived from land seizure and forced labor.Report
Who stole the American continent, and where is it now? O_O
Those “theft” notions never survive as more than talking points in a ____ studies class, among people who will never look at any economic data. From 1500 to 1913, aside from the UK, European countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland maintained vastly higher growth rates than colonial powers like Spain, Portugal, and France. Over that span, the aforementioned non-colonial countries’ economies grew five-fold relative to the colonial powers (excepting the UK).Report
This seems a bit simplistic. Humans have always traveled the globe and always traded. Humans are built to trade. But we also paradoxically seem built to imagine cozy, sealed, and completely self-sufficient ecosystems. These ecosystems are rather false upon a cursory examination. The bookstore-cafe gets its beans from somewhre and those beans do not grow in he United States. The Byzantines went on a multi-year campaign of what can basically be called industrial espionage to get silkworms from China. Egyptian glass beads were found in Viking graves.
But we still like to imagine something like the Shire or Smurf Village existing. A cozy blanket of a town surrounded by a force field that contains everything it needs. But again, people don’t think too hard about where those coffee beans or hops or malt or other stuff comes from. They think “Support your local brewery or support your charming local bookstore-cafe with its shabby chic interior of rugs, hardwood floors, and couches.Report
My point was that “trade” has always been equal parts voluntary and involuntary, and the wealth produced has always been equal parts justly and unjustly gotten.
So our admiration for the beauty of this fragile civilization is tempered by the realization that it is fragile precisely because of that fact.
Had the Faberge eggs been produced by a free and happy society they would not have been destroyed.Report
Who was destroying Faberge eggs?Report
This whole schtick of good guys and bad guys is ahistorical. It’s one thing to be clear-eyed about European conquest of the New World. It’s another to wax on the moral virtue of the essentially bronze age land empires of central America, themselves built on conquest and bloodshed. History is full of episodes of a stronger empire wiping out a weaker one and exploiting the victory. There aren’t a lot of heroes and villians, just morally complicated belligerents, all from what might as well be a different planet from the one we inhabit now.Report
I won’t dispute that some people have claimed that physical destruction and repair can be economically beneficial. They might be right in the micro for the repairman, but they’re macro wrong for the overall good of society.
But generally, when economists talk about “creative destruction”, they’re talking about the destructive power of innovation. The idea here is that technological improvement may be micro bad for, say, the icebox company, but the availability of refrigerators is a macro good for society. Even the people who worked at the icebox company will be better off indirectly from having refrigerators, and eventually should be directly better off by working in a more successful industry. Of course, I’m not going to tell someone who’s been affected by long-term unemployment that it’s always a good thing. There are serious quality of life issues for the people, or regions, tied to dying industries.
So, which kind of destruction do mobs cause? I’d say that rioters cause immediate physical damage which has negative economic value, but protestors at least believe that the net societal impact of their actions will be positive. I’ve never heard mobs use the phrase “creative destruction”, though, so I think it might be overly stretched in this article.Report
The protesters may believe they’re having a positive societal impact, but mostly they’ve just signed up for twenty to sixty more years of poverty, crime, racism, hopelessness, and in some cases, jail time. The admonition “This is why we can’t have nice things” comes to mind.
Suppose you’ve spent decades growing closer to your neighbor. Then one day he freaks out and sets fire your house while laughing maniacally. You’ll probably never trust that neighbor again. So too with some of these protests, not that anybody was too thrilled with the inhabitants of some of these neighborhoods anyway. What homeowner or business owner isn’t going to have little splinters the dark parts of his brain after seeing how fast a mob will form and decide to burn down everything, just based on some incomplete video of something that happened a thousand miles away?
These riots aren’t how you fight racism, they’re how you create it. For people who make a living off racism, this is of course a good thing, just as it is for window salesmen.Report
Agreed. I was just trying to make a narrower point, though.
Although, I don’t think that people who make a living off racism realize they’re creating it.Report
When economists talk about creative destruction, they’re riffing, ironically enough, on Joseph Schumpeter, who was riffing on Marx. The idea is still good- that capitalism cannot continue without continual creative destruction, but he was also saying it would eventually undermine the foundations of capitalism itself, which ya know, is probably not happening yet.
But this gets at my problem with debates about “socialism” versus “capitalism”- a lot of those 19th century ideas- like Marx’s- presuppose we’re all still living in an industrial economy, and not the various types of post-industrial economies in which many of us now live. I mean, it’s fine and well to talk about the factory workers controlling the means of production, but how exactly are the cashiers and food servers going to collectivize the mall?Report
Everything now is apps. What will happen when the workers manage to seize smart phones for themselves?Report
Agreed, the term “creative destruction” is stretched out of customary use. How anyone can look at this violence and think promoting the current narrative is a noble pursuit is beyond my comprehension.Report
“It is ok to let things, even evil things, die a gentle and peaceful death. It is ok to let nature take its course.”
This is a sweeping and baffling statement. As if evil things things that become the status quo don’t destroy wealth and retard the growth of civilization. Nazism. Chattel slavery. The crony faux capitalism of Marcos and Putin. (I’d even argue mass incarceration.) How would letting those systems die a slow, peaceful death further the cause of civilization, humanity and wealth creation? Some things are existential threats and it’s OK to treat them as such and hasten their demise.
I also don’t know if this is a misuse of the term “creative destruction,” popularized by Schumpeter and which really refers to innovation replacing outdated products and business models. Its a pillar of free-market economics and doesn’t mean physical destruction in any way. That might not be the intent here but I was confused nonetheless.Report
Nicholas II and his government had a chance in 1905 to allow meaningful reform. They broke their deal, and bad things happened.Report
This. Nicholas II would have been a great constitutional monarch. He made for an absolutely horrible real monarch.Report
The 1905 failed revolution also broke the legitimacy of the Cadets who might have brought in a liberal order from something closer to the ground up. There are a lot of interesting counter-factuals from revolutionary Russia.Report
This essay completely glosses over how dangerously addictive faberge eggs can as documented by the Simpsons.Report
Like Kristin, I am in no way a conservative. But I understand that conservatives are at least partly correct in that society is built up out of slowly evolving institutions created by agent actions, more so than agent design. As such, it is nucking futs to destroy what is working well (as in significantly better than any time in the historic past) to get reform. We need to work within the system rather than tearing the system down and hoping it all comes back together in a desirable shape.
Chip, you and your cheering squad (Oscar, Stillwater, and so on) are the Bolsheviks and their loyal supporters in this story.( In case you guys still need clarification.)
It isn’t too late to get on the right side of history.Report
Up above I mentioned the example of my sizeable suburb which has added to the PD’s skill set by adding mental health professionals rather than trying to diminish the department. I think it’s an example of what you’re advocating here.Report
Isn’t “reform the police” an example of working within the system?
Like, passing laws overturning QI, establishing community based policing, even abolishing police unions; These are all examples of peacefully working within the existing system towards reform.
And isn’t “working within the system” based on the prerequisite that people have faith that the system is responsive to their needs?Report
I think getting rid of QI and implementing to non-union community-based policing is a huge leap forward. Heck, Kyle Rittenhouse got a pedo, a domestic abuser, and an armed revolutionary communist off the streets in just one night. Imagine what more like him could do. 🙂Report
So here’s the question for everyone who thinks this is ‘destruction’…is there _no_ point where the system is allowed to be destroyed?
And what right, exactly, do you have to tell people who have tried to fix things their entire life via the system, and be unable to change it due to systematic racism, should just wait a little bit longer?
To quote MLK: “For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant “Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.”
― Martin Luther King Jr
That was fifty years ago.Report
And what right, exactly, do you have to tell people who have tried to fix things their entire life via the system, and be unable to change it due to systematic racism, should just wait a little bit longer?
Well, what specific “fixes” are we talking about? A lot of people have grievances that simply aren’t legitimate, either because they’re in bad faith, or because the grievance is built on misunderstanding of the facts. And of those who have legitimate grievances, most of them don’t really understand the problem, and are consequently proposing “fixes” that will just make things worse.
98% of people who want to tear it all down and start over would build something even worse if given the chance. So in most cases, the correct thing to say to them is “Go watch TV and let the grown-ups handle this.”Report
The topic under discussion is based on the premise that people want legitimate things, but want them so quickly that they are willing to destroy things, and they need to stop and we can all work together to come up with a solution.
You can’t then turn around and say ‘They should not want these things at all’. Literally the premise of what we are discussing is that they should want these things, and get them, or some version of them, but they should just be calm and patient.
But here is the cycle, in all its glory: You need to calm down and discuss this and we’ll see what we can do….*ten years later*…well, it turns out we decided against doing anything at all…wait…why are you throwing things…you need to calm down and discuss this and we’ll see what we can do…
So there’s two possibilities there. By ‘make things worse’, you are either arguing that fixing the legitimate grievances would work, but will make things worse for _everyone else_ or you are arguing that the people with the legitimate grievances do not know what is best for them.
So, either ‘black lives do not matter if caring about them makes things harder for white people’, or ‘black people are being kinda dumb here in what they’re asking for and it really wouldn’t help them’.
Yes, people who are protesting the police bursting into homes and murdering them: Go home and watch TV.Report
“what right, exactly, do you have to tell people who have tried to fix things their entire life via the system, and be unable to change it due to systematic racism, should just wait a little bit longer?”
brother, “gotta make change happen NOW because I’m SICK OF WAITING” is what that dude in Charlottesville thought when he centered the crowd in his windshield and hit the gas.Report
Timothy McVeigh, too. And those guys who bomb abortion clinics. Terrorism in general is something people do when they don’t think they can work within the system.Report
Man, there is a fun Twitter hashtag (Which Ive forgotten) of conservatives who _almost_ get the point, and this is basically the textbook version of that.
Now, the next questions is: Do you know why BLM thinks they can’t work within the system…and do you have an evidence they are wrong about this?
Actually, the first part of that, I can answer: There is an expression that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
Black people have have, after every police shooting, done protests. And gotten and…platitudes from the Democrats, and justifications why that shooting was okay because the guy had some pot in his house or something from the Repiblicans. And…maybe the police officer…might get charged…no, not charged, but maybe suspended…with pay…and they’re back on the force, and literally nothing ever happens.
This is going on…thirty years? Forty years? Or…actually has never stopped, like,the police have continued to behave like this since the civil right’s movement, and…actually before, also. This is an eternal thing.
Wait, maybe cell phone cameras will fix it! They can start documenting everything…and that documentation reveals…they have been telling the truth, the police are completely horribly violent in their behavior for no real reason…and literally no one cares.
Well, what’s next? What do you do when you can’t work within the system, and it will never allow you to, because somehow a police union with a few hundred people get more of a say over public policy than a large portion of the population.Report
“‘To take all policing off is something I think a latte liberal may go for as they sit around the Hamptons discussing this as some academic problem” – Reverend Al Sharpton.
He went on to say
The Latte sipping liberals in the Hamptons have a problem. An innocent black person is about a hundred times more likely to get shot by a criminal than a cop, and even a slight slash to policing will kill far more black people than it saves.
Even if you just focus on training, increased training would require a bigger police budget, not a smaller one. If you want to avoid the situations where someone resists arrest and thinks they can fight their way out of it, you need more cops to physically restrain the suspect instead of leaving it as a one-on-one fight to the death.
These white liberal solutions are aimed at making themselves feel morally virtuous while standing on the graves of vastly more dead black people. Some might say that this is the problem that has been going on for over half a century.Report
It is perfectly self-consistent to think that people should work outside the system for _good goals_ when the system will not listen to them are good people, and yet people who work outside the system for _bad goals_ when the system will not listen to them are bad people.
In fact, I can judge people for working _within the system_ and trying to elect David Duke and implementing white nationalism via completely normal democratic means! There is no magical ethical line between ‘the system’ and ‘outside the system’. I judge people based on how much harm they cause to others, and how much harm they try to prevent, instead of how much the law is followed.
We’ve actually had right-wing protestors that did illegal non-violent (Well, there was the threat of violence, but non-violent in the end) things, like the Bundy protestors, and that protest was for a non-horrible goal. I personally think it was a dumb goal, but it wasn’t a horrible goal like white nationalism.
And while I have pointed out that those protestors got treated much different by the system, and they shouldn’t be, I’m not saying ‘This is a horrible thing that needs to stop’. If they want to peacefully occupy locations, then…I’m not going to say it is unethical for them to do that. Hell, if they want to burn down an empty building or two, I’m not going to call that out-of-bounds….although at some point I will point out their dispute is merely about them paying money for the use of shared resources, whereas what BLM are protesting cannot be, and often results in them dead, and maybe one of those issues is more important than the other.
And people with more important problems get to break more important laws to make people fix them. And even act more unethically. Larger-scope ethics can justify actions that would, themselves, be unethical if done outside that context. Like self-defense…it becomes ethical to do something that is otherwise unethical. A more serious problem, a large amount of harm being done, allows a larger response.
There are some circumstances where destroying property is clearly completely justified, like blowing up the tank of an invading army. There are some circumstances where it is clearly not justified, like ‘I don’t like this model of car, so I will break the window.’. There are even some circumstances where driving cars into people would be justified…it’s just not the circumstances under discussion!
And it sure is surreal to think that people who have a problem with the _protestors_ think actions are fixed as unethical or not, considering the, uh…police shooting people issue. So guess shooting people is always…unethical? Always ethical? Like, pick a side, I guess, there’s no such thing as competing moral interests! (Before you say ‘The protestors took a side’…not, they didn’t. BLM does not think the government should never, ever, under any circumstances kill someone. They just think it should be much much less common, and have a much higher legal threshold, and also the racial bias of policing in general indicates rather nasty things about all of police culture and their mindset and that should be entirely torn down and replaced by something that has not been trained to operate like this.)
‘Burning down a building that functions as part of systemic oppression’ is not the same as ‘driving over people walking down the street’. Both of those are outside the system, but that does not make them the same thing. For the most obvious, one of those is attempted murder, the other isn’t! For the less obvious reason, one of those has a good goal, the other does not. This does not automatically make it ‘justified’, but it is certainly _more_ justifiable.
And you’re about to point out ‘Abortion clinic bombers think their problems are Very Important too and that a lot of harm is being done’, and ‘The guy who drove his car into protestors think he had Very Important problems’, and…yes, they do. You are correct.
They’re just wrong. Like, people can actually be wrong about ethics. And I can judge them for being wrong…or not for being wrong, I don’t care that much internally what they think, but I care about them taking violent action to further those wrong goals. (And the law already judges them.)Report
“Like self-defense…it becomes ethical to do something that is otherwise unethical.”
yes, that’s what Kyle Rittenhouse thought
“[Y]ou’re about to point out ‘Abortion clinic bombers think their problems are Very Important too and that a lot of harm is being done’, and ‘The guy who drove his car into protestors think[sic] he had Very Important problems’, and…yes, they do. You are correct. They’re just wrong. Like, people can actually be wrong about ethics.”
you wrote a thousand-word blog comment trying to respond to me and the best you can fucking manage is “nuh-uh“Report
Oh, I’m sorry, have I _given_ my opinion of Rittenhouse for you to be arguing with? *looks around carefully* It appear I have not done that.
Hey, fun fact: I don’t actually care about Rittenhouse, as a person. It is entirely possible that entire thing was self defense, and then more self defense. Which points to two important things:
1) If we take Rittenhouse at his word, everyone in the situation except _one_ other person behaved reasonably. One person, one very specific person, attacked him, and he acted in self-defense shooting them. Then other people, knowing he had shot someone but not the context, tried to disarm a shooter, and basically do a citizen’s arrest, because he had just shot someone. He, now being attacked by more people, shot some of them, killing one and maiming another. He finally managed to scare them off by threatening them enough. (And let’s not even get into the fact that it seems likely the _first_ attacker attacked him because they thought he was someone who had fired off a gunshot earlier, when in fact it was someone else doing that.)
This is a totally rational way for society to function, I guess?
The problem here is not if it’s legally self-defense or not. (Even if he’s telling the truth, it’s unclear if you can claim self-defense while committing a felony by possessing a firearm you are not allowed to have.) It’s that it proves the mouth-flapping of the right is complete and utter nonsense: You can’t give lethal weapons to people and expect both them, and everyone else, to know the situation, and respond reasonably.
2) The behavior of the police towards Rittenhouse is incredibly telling. That they literally walk past a white person, carrying a gun, trying to surrender, towards gunshots. Everyone about their behavior WRT the counter-protestors vs. the protestors is _incredibly_ revealing about how the cops think about ‘people on their side, aka, white conservatives’, vs ‘people not on their side’.
—
These opinions about Rittenhouse, what those events actually show us, is something I posted on Twitter about a week ago, I didn’t come up with it just now. But I don’t tell people here about my Twitter, you guys can’t find it, and I’m not going to expose it just to prove this, so I’m sure I’ll be accused of lying.
(I might have actually also said this here, but I don’t really want to go back and try to find it.)
No, the best I can manage is a explanation of utilitarianism and how the difference in actions of all those is ultimately in the goals are, based on a system of morality that I follow, and that is how I judge those actions.
And that’s literally how everyone judges actions, even people who don’t think they do. It’s why lying to Nazis is ethical, whereas the Nazis laying about their treatment of Jews was not ethical, despite them _both_ thinking that produced better outcomes.
Because the ‘better’ Nazi outcomes are actually very bad.
But perhaps you would like to explain the moral difference between Nazis lying and people lying to Nazis.Report
“have I _given_ my opinion of Rittenhouse for you to be arguing with?”
it’s amusing how you angrily declare that you weren’t talking about that guy and then you…talk about that guy
“the best I can manage is a explanation of utilitarianism”
bro
you keep telling me how ethics are situational and morality is conditional and how we need to understand that sometimes committing An Act Generally Regarded As Unethical is actually okay because it’s a good person doing a good thing for good reasons
and then I say “what about James Hodgkinson, he analysed the situation and the conditions and concluded that the morally-correct ethically-justified act was to shoot a bunch of people with a machine gun”
and you get very angry and declare that no, obviously he was wrong, obviously he had Objectively Bad Ethics and Incontrovertibly Questionable Morals, that even suggesting that he could have used those same reasoning tools in his ethical analysis is a scurrilous personal attack upon you, that he knew he was going to do a bad thing and intentionally did it anyway because he is bad
and it’s like, okay, well, obviously the way this works is that you’ve got dudes you like whom you’re willing to make allowances for, and dudes you don’t like whom you have Iron-Shod Crystal-Clear Objective Standards for
and I get that it’s hard, I get that it’s scary, I get that it takes a lot of courage to have actual standards that you apply to everybody, I get that it seems like Giving Aid And Comfort To The Enemy to look at someone who’s a good person fighting really hard for the right reasons and say “dude, you’re doing a bad thing, stop”
but you seem like the kind of person who I’d expect to have that courage and it’s really weird to see you typing so many words explaining how you shouldn’t have toReport
I’m not making ‘allowances’ for people. I’m saying it is justifiable to destroy someone else’s property for a ‘good and important’ reason but not for bad reason or even an unimportant reason. You can break a car window to save a dog, because a dog is more important than a car window. You can’t break a car window to turn someone’s headlights off before their battery drains, because a charged battery is not more important than a window. You can’t break a car window to put a pamphlet on someone’s dash…that’s not even a good reason to start with, so it can’t counter the harm of the broken window.
This is what everyone thinks. They often sometimes don’t formally put it together into words, and of course everyone has different idea of harm and relative rankings. But everyone thinks it.
When did I say anything was an attack on me? His ethical analysis is not an attack on me, it’s just wrong…actually, his ‘ethical analysis‘ might not be wrong. Running over BLM protestors is possibly a logical way to get to the stated outcome of white nationalism? I’ve never really tried to figure out how to accomplish that goal, and I have no idea how important he ranks white nationalism as a outcome, which would be important in judging if lives can be taken towards that ends.
Of course, I believe white nationalism is an evil outcome, which means it can’t be used to justify any harm. In fact, I judge everyone who takes any actions towards white nationalism _whatsoever_. Even if those actions do not cause other harm, like merely passing out pamphlets on the street…because the outcome itself is harm! (Note, me judging people for something is not ‘That action should be criminal’. It just means I disapprove of what they are doing.)
Meanwhile, I do believe BLM is trying to fix some pretty serious harm that currently happens, and that will continue to happen without their actions, and property damage that has happened is much less harmful that the situation that currently exists, and will continue to exist, and the damage is useful in pressuring that harm to stop.
I didn’t say he knew it was bad. In fact, I specifically said, about people doing bad things: And you’re about to point out ‘Abortion clinic bombers think their problems are Very Important too and that a lot of harm is being done’, and ‘The guy who drove his car into protestors think he had Very Important problems’, and…yes, they do. You are correct.
People doing bad things often think they are doing good things.
You seem to think I’m not condemning them because I’m on their side. No. I’m not condemning their actions because I do not think those actions _should be condemned_.
It’s not courage to say ‘I wish protestors would behave themselves’. As I’ve explained…that has always been the thing. Respectability politics. Protestors behave themselves, and nothing happens.
Bu protesting is not even truly protesting unless it break stuff. It doesn’t have be property it breaks, it can be traffic, or an economic situation, but it has to break the system to get _anything_ done. It has to throw sand into the system and cause it to seize up.
Protesting is not a publicity stunt. The point of a protest is not just to drive attention to a cause…I mean, it can start there, and if it works, that’s great. if it doesn’t work, the next step is to start inconveniencing people. And more. And hitting their pocketbooks.
And at some point people will be willing to listen, because…they realize they need to.
And if you think that’s pretty close to terrorism, you have a point, except there’s a difference between breaking a system operates against you, and and threatening random people with physical harm.
—
In case anyone thinks this is about ‘my side’ still: Every time this place talks about abortion, I’ve talked about the huge clue that almost no anti-abortion protestors do not their own rhetoric: They refuse to take any steps to cause abortion clinics to shut down if that threatens their freedom. And I’m not talking about violence, I’m talking about lighting the front door on fire or driving their car into it.
Now, anti-abortion protestors do not have bad goals, at least not the same sort as white nationalists. Their ultimate goal is, hypothetically, to save lives. The way they are trying to accomplish is just stupidly misguided. But because of that, I wouldn’t really condemn for damaging abortion clinics…or at least, I wouldn’t condemn the damage per se, more the ‘the clinic can’t help as many people’.
If the system is unjust, if the system is causing harm, and the people in charge of the system are ignoring this fact, and have ignored it for literally decades…you have to break the system.Report
But BLM, Antifa, and pretty much the entire left is pushing white nationalism. All that “black outreach” they do, all that constant harping about minorities? That’s to clearly establish, to both whites and minorities, that the minorities are utterly dependent on the good will and big hearts of white liberals. It is still upper-class anointed whites bestowing indulgences on their inferiors, with the built-in assumption that they can also deliver hard slaps with their pimp hand.
So this means that your position is that violence and destruction is justified as long as it advances white nationalism. How convenient.Report
“Their ultimate goal is, hypothetically, to save lives. The way they are trying to accomplish is just stupidly misguided. But because of that, I wouldn’t really condemn for damaging abortion clinics…”
tfw you’re so dedicated to Proving DensityDuck Wrong that you defend abortion-clinic bombersReport
I defended abortion clinic ‘damaging’, not ‘bombing’. Abortion clinic bombers are trying to kill people who work there, that is fundamentally different than damaging an empty building.
Again: The reason I am not condemning the destruction of property is that I THINK THE SITUATION WARRANTS IT.
Or, in the case of people hypothetically running their cars into empty abortion clinics each morning to keep it shut down, I would think the situation they _think_ is going on warrants it from their POV, even if I think that their understanding is incorrect. Their methods would be acceptable, even if their goals are stupid.
Gee, it’s almost as if I _am_ morally consistent in what actions are justifiable! And you just wasted a _FUCKTON_ of everyone’s time making me explain something I was very very clear about from the start:
Property is less important than people. Damaging property of powerful people is often the only way the powerless and oppressed have any sort of power.
So to recap: I have no problem with things escalating to that point as long as a) It is clear that political means, and lesser forms of protest have been tried first, in which all my examples have been tried for _decades_, with no result, so the people protesting are actually powerless in fixing things, and b) the property damage is is well targeted at people _with_ the power to fix things, or targeted at part of the system of oppression itself.
Note ‘no problem with things escalating to that point’ does not mean I think it should be legal. Laws exist to maintain an orderly society, and protests literally exist to disrupt an orderly society because people think current society is misordered.Report
“I defended abortion clinic ‘damaging’, not ‘bombing’.”
tfw you’re so dedicated to Proving DensityDuck Wrong that you insist there is a meaningful moral difference between bombing an abortion clinic and merely damaging it
“Damaging property of powerful people is often the only way the powerless and oppressed have any sort of power.”
i am absolutely agog with anticipation for your explanation of how abortion clinics are powerful and the religiously-inspired zealots burning them down are powerless and oppressedReport
The absurdity of urging BLM to “work within the system” is that protest itself is exactly an example of “working within the system”.
The “System” is our Constitution. And after it was drafted, the drafters realized it wasn’t working, so they wrote ten amendments correcting the oversight.
The very first amendment was ensuring the right of the people to assemble and seek redress, to protest that the system isn’t working.
The system itself acknowledges that the system doesn’t always work, and needs constant challenges and changes.Report
You forgot the word “Peaceably”
Absent the “peaceably” part, the government, or anyone else, can switch to head shots, nothing but head shots. 🙂Report
David Duke endorsed Tulsi Gabbard because she’s not a Jewish puppet, unlike Trump. Richard Spencer endorsed Joe Biden – the white nationalist candidate. Pretty much the whole Democratic party has gone full racist. BLMers have even been stapling up posters denouncing inter-racial dating, which dilutes the purity of the blood. Racial mixing – still viewed as a threat, and racial treason, by the party that’s entirely obsessed with race.Report