Well, it's hard to comment contrary to the word to Tod, but two items that stand the test of time are Slavery and the dignity of Women. I recognize that these things will not sit well among some here, but the interesting thing about Haidt's work is that some of conclusions may be shared (some not), but the moral reasoning to get there may be different. So, for a certain set of folks (conservatives?), the Sanctity of the Person is the foundational argument against slavery and for the dignity of women; not fairness and not liberty.
What I have found interesting about Haidt's moral foundations is that even if it's taxonomy incomplete (or even wrong), it certainly helps to illustrate some of the reasons why we can all agree on certain principles, like, say, the dignity of the human person, but because the foundations upon which we base the conclusion are so varied, we can look across the aisle and see nothing but wrongness.
Haidt's story of Messrs. Meiwes and Brandes, though macabre in the extreme, should at least tickle the Sanctity sentiment that we all possess, perhaps illustrating why a notion of human liberty/dignity based solely on fairness/freedom might be different than a notion of human dignity/liberty informed by sanctity.
@will-truman Yep, Ohio, PA, Indiana... lots of places use the ticket system, and that's my point. In that model, everyone is stopped to pay the toll - some of us have access to a (sometimes) faster lane.
The newer engineering definitely seems much better in that the assumption is that you have the electronic gizmo that enables fast entry/exit/throughfare and only the pokey analog people have to wait in line.
My experience in FL was that I knew a toll was coming, I simply expected that we would all be routed into the toll corridor to navigate to our appropriate booth. Nope. Whoosh. Pokey analogs had to make a vehicular adjustment to participate in the toll system... otherwise carrying on was blissfully free at 70 mph.
Your picture above captures it exactly... if you don't know the convention, you *will* miss the toll.
Now, the toll only roads are popping up all over... DC added a couple; I call them the rich people lanes and use them sometimes just because I can. They don't go very far, just make it easier to get to Tyson's corner.... which in the scheme of things was a pretty weak use of funds. But hey, DC.
What's regionally unfamiliar is how some states (FL) are building new toll-roads where the driver has to recognize and make a conscious effort to "exit" the toll-road to pay the toll. That's not how it usually works anywhere else.
I can see how this is much more efficient and a better design, but I definitely buzzed several toll episodes before I even realized how it worked. Didn't cost me anything, but yeah, changing rules and customs on the roads will lead to mix-ups like this. How to spot a mix-up vs. a scofflaw? Well, if you can find a way to find me to collect $25 plus fees... you can probably manage the data to ascertain a confused tourist vs. a habitual non-payer.
Interesting... It appears there's even a little court history/drama to the dissent suggesting that this is a known issue that has been discussed among the justices. I wonder what the counter-position would be.
The present petition presents the nonhypothetical case the Court claimed to have been waiting for. And it is a particularly appealing case, because not only did no jury convict these defendants of the offense the sentencing judge thought them guilty of, but a jury acquitted them of that offense. Petitioners were convicted of distributing drugs, but acquitted of conspiring to distribute drugs. The sentencing judge found that petitioners had engaged in the conspiracy of which the jury acquitted them.
Oh... we almost had a moment there. And, you have strange notions of danger.
Libertarians... putting the Classical back into Liberal for over a century - can't get more establishment than that. It is the rest of us who are the dirty splitters of one stripe or another.
As a side-note... the right wing and radical left have some alignment on economic issues... I think it is the Pragmatic Establishment Center with whom you have the greatest potential disagreement.
We fight on so many other fronts... let us enjoy our bonhomie where we can.
"My friends with kids seemingly understand that meltdowns are part of normal development for small children for various reasons and sometimes it is best to just let a toddler cry it out."
This is part of the misunderstanding of CP. When toddlers cry, 90% of the time it is the fault of the parents... the child is either Tired, Hungry, or sitting in his own Filth (or all three). Spanking might still be appropriate, but I have found it is embarrassing to spank parents in public.
Often when I talk to new or younger parents, it is their notion of what constitutes an action that needs correction that is broken... not the method of correction.
"The better discussion is if someone is going to use CP how do they do it well."
This, I fear, is what is always lost in these sorts of issues. Abusus non tollit usum.
Still, I see nothing wrong for my fellow traditionalists to make sure they think on the relationship between crime, punishment and forgiveness. There is a Lord Peter short story, Talboys, that is helpful to frame the difference between hitting and punishing and, more importantly, forgiveness. It is pretty high-church, so I don't expect it to be convincing as an argument, per se. But, if you are interested in talking to folks on this side of the spectrum, it would be a place to take as a reference point. As for me, I can understand the reasoning behind disciplining a child, but cannot fathom an earthly notion of what our present penal prison system is for.
@mike-schilling True, Hobby Lobby did not object to birth control, per se. The Little Sisters of the Poor (and others) object to artificial contraception in toto.
@james-hanley and @road-scholar well, yes, you've answered your own question; paying for those services via your own funds and/or with a program established with tax dollars for free-birth-control-for-all (Obama-Pill? ... I kid, I kid), does not require formal cooperation by the institution. The former is a matter of individual conscience, the latter a matter subject to political collective action. No goalposts were moved... many of these lawsuits pre-date the Hobby Lobby ruling.
It all hinges on the kludge of "free." Supporters want to see "free" as a sort of government subsidy, objectors see "free" as a fiction, especially when self-insured where they basically have to designate themselves (technically, the plan administrator) as the entity providing the free objectionable services (more than just pills... also including voluntary self sterilization). Sometimes the plan administrator, like the Christian Brothers also objects and is party to the lawsuit. So, it isn't simple a matter of making secular behemoths like Aetna or Blue Cross absorb costs.
There is a lesser discussed issue that the administration still continues to narrowly define the exempted class *not* to include entities like the Little Sisters of the Poor or intentional entities like explicitly Catholic schools, or ancillary organizations of a Catholic diocese. The Church itself (narrowly defined) is exempt; the secondary entities are "accommodated." The goal posts being moved are here. From this perspective, Hobby Lobby was an unhelpful distraction; and, possibly a ruling that will cloud the arguments from these non-profits.
This accommodation is already working through the court system by the religious institutions that were offered it in the first place.
There are some who think that the court signaled that this accommodation will suffice; we shall see. But, to answer your question, no, it is not seen as satisfactory by the groups it is meant to accommodate.
I have advanced degrees in History as well (no PhD, I collect MA's like bobble-heads). What I was surprised to discover is that Sales is a very good fit for all of our talents: Self-starter, Self-directed, analytical, quick learner, able to synthesize complex issues into easily understood language, as well as the oft required (but never actually satisfied) "premier writing and communication skills." More than a few of my peers have advanced degrees in the Liberal Arts; it is a truism of high-tech that techies make terrible sales reps... they miss the story for the technology. People don't buy technology, they buy solutions to the problems making their jobs suck - and as noted above, there's a lot of suck in jobs these days.
The good and bad of sales is that it is relatively easy to get and lose a sales job... and the wrong kind of sales job is just a shitty job at the bottom of a crappy pyramid - don't do that.
My tip to you, then, is to look only at Business-to-Business sales (consumer sales is not what I'm talking about here... that is pure commodity sale and you are neither compensated nor, really, needed). Look for complexity - software used to be great and I'd start there, but that's just what I know. I personally started with Wine sales (B2B - selling wine by distributor to professionals) and moved into Software. Quite likely you won't get hired for the prime Account Exec role until you get some experience... look for Business Development, Inside Sales, Marketing Sales (and such) for a high-tech (i.e. complex) company that sells products to businesses. While they are low status jobs (and usually kinda grindy and yucky), they probably pay 2x, 3x or 4x what you make today (my transition from Teacher to Wine to Software doubled my base salary each time)... and once you learn the business, you can take the leap into direct/field sales (or perhaps sidle into Product Marketing, or other positions where our skills dwarf those with Business Degrees).
You can position the skills I mentioned above (plus many others tailored to the job description and industry) as good reasons to give you a shot. Hiring managers for sales positions are looking for people who know success and how to get there... details about the product you are selling are just that, details. You have a PhD - that's your success story; and if your PhD story is like most of my friends', you had to navigate a complex political cycle to a successful close; that's way more than anything the IT Management or Marketing undergrad brings. That's enough to get an entry-level job in (good) sales.
B2B sales is hard, demanding, relentless, and filled with risk... but, the rewards are massive, and, more importantly for Self Directed people like us, the work profile fits us. We bring order to complexity, we can manage uncertainty, we will apply creative solutions to bypass roadblocks set-up by our own company, the competition, or the customer, and we love the constant puzzle of understanding people, motives, moves and counter-moves... B2B Sales is chess with real people. After Agriculture, it is the most mentally challenging thing I do.
Sales is misunderstood because, well, cars. Don't do that. I could go on about what sales is not...but I've said too much already. Good luck.
@james-hanley as someone who has been rammed by a ram I've handled since it was 6 mos old (and here I thought we had something special)... that Bison sign is something to which I would very much attend.
Talking to my vet, he comments on how well mannered our male animals are... he tells me stories of other farms where the bull/ram/buck will run half-way across a field to challenge him. Bisons, I hear, are particularly ornery.
On “Comment Rescue, Purity Edition”
Haidt makes available the entirety of Chapter 7 from his Moralfoundations.org website.
"
Well, it's hard to comment contrary to the word to Tod, but two items that stand the test of time are Slavery and the dignity of Women. I recognize that these things will not sit well among some here, but the interesting thing about Haidt's work is that some of conclusions may be shared (some not), but the moral reasoning to get there may be different. So, for a certain set of folks (conservatives?), the Sanctity of the Person is the foundational argument against slavery and for the dignity of women; not fairness and not liberty.
What I have found interesting about Haidt's moral foundations is that even if it's taxonomy incomplete (or even wrong), it certainly helps to illustrate some of the reasons why we can all agree on certain principles, like, say, the dignity of the human person, but because the foundations upon which we base the conclusion are so varied, we can look across the aisle and see nothing but wrongness.
Haidt's story of Messrs. Meiwes and Brandes, though macabre in the extreme, should at least tickle the Sanctity sentiment that we all possess, perhaps illustrating why a notion of human liberty/dignity based solely on fairness/freedom might be different than a notion of human dignity/liberty informed by sanctity.
And that's all I have to say about that.
On “When Rental Cars Meet Toll Roads”
@will-truman Yep, Ohio, PA, Indiana... lots of places use the ticket system, and that's my point. In that model, everyone is stopped to pay the toll - some of us have access to a (sometimes) faster lane.
The newer engineering definitely seems much better in that the assumption is that you have the electronic gizmo that enables fast entry/exit/throughfare and only the pokey analog people have to wait in line.
My experience in FL was that I knew a toll was coming, I simply expected that we would all be routed into the toll corridor to navigate to our appropriate booth. Nope. Whoosh. Pokey analogs had to make a vehicular adjustment to participate in the toll system... otherwise carrying on was blissfully free at 70 mph.
Your picture above captures it exactly... if you don't know the convention, you *will* miss the toll.
Now, the toll only roads are popping up all over... DC added a couple; I call them the rich people lanes and use them sometimes just because I can. They don't go very far, just make it easier to get to Tyson's corner.... which in the scheme of things was a pretty weak use of funds. But hey, DC.
"
What's regionally unfamiliar is how some states (FL) are building new toll-roads where the driver has to recognize and make a conscious effort to "exit" the toll-road to pay the toll. That's not how it usually works anywhere else.
I can see how this is much more efficient and a better design, but I definitely buzzed several toll episodes before I even realized how it worked. Didn't cost me anything, but yeah, changing rules and customs on the roads will lead to mix-ups like this. How to spot a mix-up vs. a scofflaw? Well, if you can find a way to find me to collect $25 plus fees... you can probably manage the data to ascertain a confused tourist vs. a habitual non-payer.
On “Why We Need the Liberal Arts”
@saul-degraw Well sure, they party like there's no tomorrow.
"
Why do you hate diluvians? They are a perfectly reasonable group of folks, maybe a little wishy-washy... but good peeps on the whole.
On “Two-Thirds of Supreme Court Justices Okay With Defendant Going To Prison For A Crime He Didn’t Commit”
Interesting... It appears there's even a little court history/drama to the dissent suggesting that this is a known issue that has been discussed among the justices. I wonder what the counter-position would be.
On “This American Life, Carmen Segarra, and the Federal Reserve Bank: an Episode TBTF?”
Oh... we almost had a moment there. And, you have strange notions of danger.
Libertarians... putting the Classical back into Liberal for over a century - can't get more establishment than that. It is the rest of us who are the dirty splitters of one stripe or another.
On “i thank You God for most this amazing by e e cummings”
Shouting from the grave. it is a funny,thing.
On “This American Life, Carmen Segarra, and the Federal Reserve Bank: an Episode TBTF?”
As a side-note... the right wing and radical left have some alignment on economic issues... I think it is the Pragmatic Establishment Center with whom you have the greatest potential disagreement.
We fight on so many other fronts... let us enjoy our bonhomie where we can.
On “Some Not-So-Random Thoughts on the Redskins Controversy”
@glyph Ugh, why would I consort with letter carriers? Clearly I meant Urban Extortionists (said he archly).
"
Oh, I don't know... some of my best friends are blackmailers.
On “Corporal Punishment, Race and Adrian Peterson”
Ahem...the Proverbs of Solomon. Clearly corporal punishment is a Jewish plot.
Or, the collected wisdom of ages of child rearing... the ancient equivalent to "Studies Say..."
"
"My friends with kids seemingly understand that meltdowns are part of normal development for small children for various reasons and sometimes it is best to just let a toddler cry it out."
This is part of the misunderstanding of CP. When toddlers cry, 90% of the time it is the fault of the parents... the child is either Tired, Hungry, or sitting in his own Filth (or all three). Spanking might still be appropriate, but I have found it is embarrassing to spank parents in public.
Often when I talk to new or younger parents, it is their notion of what constitutes an action that needs correction that is broken... not the method of correction.
"
"The better discussion is if someone is going to use CP how do they do it well."
This, I fear, is what is always lost in these sorts of issues. Abusus non tollit usum.
Still, I see nothing wrong for my fellow traditionalists to make sure they think on the relationship between crime, punishment and forgiveness. There is a Lord Peter short story, Talboys, that is helpful to frame the difference between hitting and punishing and, more importantly, forgiveness. It is pretty high-church, so I don't expect it to be convincing as an argument, per se. But, if you are interested in talking to folks on this side of the spectrum, it would be a place to take as a reference point. As for me, I can understand the reasoning behind disciplining a child, but cannot fathom an earthly notion of what our present penal prison system is for.
On “A Really Simple Theory of Moral Rights”
I confess that I'm not sure I get your point... probably too meta for me.
But. Wasn't this the gist of MacIntyre's _After Virtue_ (and other subsequent works)?
On “Hopefully the end of it.”
@mike-schilling True, Hobby Lobby did not object to birth control, per se. The Little Sisters of the Poor (and others) object to artificial contraception in toto.
@james-hanley and @road-scholar well, yes, you've answered your own question; paying for those services via your own funds and/or with a program established with tax dollars for free-birth-control-for-all (Obama-Pill? ... I kid, I kid), does not require formal cooperation by the institution. The former is a matter of individual conscience, the latter a matter subject to political collective action. No goalposts were moved... many of these lawsuits pre-date the Hobby Lobby ruling.
It all hinges on the kludge of "free." Supporters want to see "free" as a sort of government subsidy, objectors see "free" as a fiction, especially when self-insured where they basically have to designate themselves (technically, the plan administrator) as the entity providing the free objectionable services (more than just pills... also including voluntary self sterilization). Sometimes the plan administrator, like the Christian Brothers also objects and is party to the lawsuit. So, it isn't simple a matter of making secular behemoths like Aetna or Blue Cross absorb costs.
There is a lesser discussed issue that the administration still continues to narrowly define the exempted class *not* to include entities like the Little Sisters of the Poor or intentional entities like explicitly Catholic schools, or ancillary organizations of a Catholic diocese. The Church itself (narrowly defined) is exempt; the secondary entities are "accommodated." The goal posts being moved are here. From this perspective, Hobby Lobby was an unhelpful distraction; and, possibly a ruling that will cloud the arguments from these non-profits.
"
This accommodation is already working through the court system by the religious institutions that were offered it in the first place.
There are some who think that the court signaled that this accommodation will suffice; we shall see. But, to answer your question, no, it is not seen as satisfactory by the groups it is meant to accommodate.
On “Decipher This Poopy Sign! [Updated]”
Quite possibly 1st century Romans by the grammar...one would definitely call to the police.
On “Why the House Should Follow Through and Sue President Obama”
@jaybird just want to say that I appreciate what you do.
On “Seeking Meaning(ful work)”
I have advanced degrees in History as well (no PhD, I collect MA's like bobble-heads). What I was surprised to discover is that Sales is a very good fit for all of our talents: Self-starter, Self-directed, analytical, quick learner, able to synthesize complex issues into easily understood language, as well as the oft required (but never actually satisfied) "premier writing and communication skills." More than a few of my peers have advanced degrees in the Liberal Arts; it is a truism of high-tech that techies make terrible sales reps... they miss the story for the technology. People don't buy technology, they buy solutions to the problems making their jobs suck - and as noted above, there's a lot of suck in jobs these days.
The good and bad of sales is that it is relatively easy to get and lose a sales job... and the wrong kind of sales job is just a shitty job at the bottom of a crappy pyramid - don't do that.
My tip to you, then, is to look only at Business-to-Business sales (consumer sales is not what I'm talking about here... that is pure commodity sale and you are neither compensated nor, really, needed). Look for complexity - software used to be great and I'd start there, but that's just what I know. I personally started with Wine sales (B2B - selling wine by distributor to professionals) and moved into Software. Quite likely you won't get hired for the prime Account Exec role until you get some experience... look for Business Development, Inside Sales, Marketing Sales (and such) for a high-tech (i.e. complex) company that sells products to businesses. While they are low status jobs (and usually kinda grindy and yucky), they probably pay 2x, 3x or 4x what you make today (my transition from Teacher to Wine to Software doubled my base salary each time)... and once you learn the business, you can take the leap into direct/field sales (or perhaps sidle into Product Marketing, or other positions where our skills dwarf those with Business Degrees).
You can position the skills I mentioned above (plus many others tailored to the job description and industry) as good reasons to give you a shot. Hiring managers for sales positions are looking for people who know success and how to get there... details about the product you are selling are just that, details. You have a PhD - that's your success story; and if your PhD story is like most of my friends', you had to navigate a complex political cycle to a successful close; that's way more than anything the IT Management or Marketing undergrad brings. That's enough to get an entry-level job in (good) sales.
B2B sales is hard, demanding, relentless, and filled with risk... but, the rewards are massive, and, more importantly for Self Directed people like us, the work profile fits us. We bring order to complexity, we can manage uncertainty, we will apply creative solutions to bypass roadblocks set-up by our own company, the competition, or the customer, and we love the constant puzzle of understanding people, motives, moves and counter-moves... B2B Sales is chess with real people. After Agriculture, it is the most mentally challenging thing I do.
Sales is misunderstood because, well, cars. Don't do that. I could go on about what sales is not...but I've said too much already. Good luck.
On “Warning Fatigue: My Dog is Giving me Cancer”
@james-hanley as someone who has been rammed by a ram I've handled since it was 6 mos old (and here I thought we had something special)... that Bison sign is something to which I would very much attend.
Talking to my vet, he comments on how well mannered our male animals are... he tells me stories of other farms where the bull/ram/buck will run half-way across a field to challenge him. Bisons, I hear, are particularly ornery.
"
@jaybird hah, reminds me of the bit by Ray Romano on Potato Chips with Olestra (from his Live at Carnegie hall, if the link doesn't work).
http://grooveshark.com/s/Potato+Chips/3V1SXB?src=5
Though, in reference to the original post, the warning label worked.
"
Yes, yes there is.
http://nlss4n.deviantart.com/art/Sick-Figure-Constipated-7129510
I know I'd think twice about taking *that* cold medicine.
"
Well, yes, sometimes you are just doing it wrong.
http://neuroanthropology.wordpress.com/files/2009/05/record-player.jpg
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.