I guess I don't see Impeachment as a bloody horse head. It's a terrible threat because the runway is too long, so it doesn't compel good behavior just a sort of modulation to play against time.
I suppose its the professional experience in Sales that makes me extremely sensitive to time... time kills all deals is a common saying for us. You have to execute while you have focus, energy and support... all those things ebb away with time.
I haven't seen either, so will withhold judgement on which might be better... but my point stands, if the goal is removal/disqualification it doesn't matter whether the articles make *us* feel good, it only matters if they make 16 R's feel good enough to vote yes. That's the only audience that matters.
I don't mind Pelosi/Schumer calling Pence... heck they should be calling all R Senators too... but the *if* clause she was throwing around was stupid. If Pence doesn't invoke the 25th...? From the Speaker of the House? That's weak sauce. If she lost even a day with such nonsense (no idea if she did) then that's just on her.
I have a suspicion, though, that Congress as an institution really doesn't like Impeachment... I think it's sort of an inherent institutional bias... but I think it's real. I also think institutionally there are lots of things Congress can do, but doesn't like to do.
I probably wasn't clear... by swiftly I meant in the next 14 days +/- ... If we're "debating" the matter in April I'd suggest it's a dead letter and the backlash would be in the form of Senators refusing to vote for it since removal is already done and enough time would have passed that disqualification would seem like a political vendetta. That's what I mean by backlash in this context.
ooops... probably should have clarified that I was specifically referring the the last two sentences:
"let the GOP put their money where their mouth is and demonstrate where they stand on this matter. It would be illuminating and that’d be useful even if they didn’t vote to remove Trump"
Yes and no... that's sort of my point... it would be really easy to write articles of impeachment that would actually give cover to R's for *not* voting to impeach. The harder route is not doing that. Have to find the, what, 16 Senators that might be persuadable and write it exactly to their specifications. And, as I note above, it's also time sensitive.
But if the goal is rhetorical... then it's still only effective as I describe above.
Anything else would only be rhetorically effective for the same tribe.
Thanks... I was wondering if an impeachment could continue after the person no longer held the office.
Politically this only really works in a small window... once Biden is already president and Private Citizen Trump is tweeting in Mar-a-Lago... you're playing the calculus of whether disqualifying Trump is better for some subset of Senators and whether there are enough 'other' Senators who will work with the Stabby Senators to do the Stabbing so those other Senators can pretend not to stab.
Plus, absent the immediacy and 'over lawyering' the case will simply deprive those factions of the plausibility cover they would need to act... so I don't see anything happening at all in, say, April. In fact, by April I'd see a backlash.
Might not like the calculus, but that's what it would be...
My favorite storyline is the Pace/Trubitsky Harvard Business Review Cautionary Tale in the making.
* Trade a 2nd/3rd/4th rounder to move up One (1) spot in the draft to pick a QB not on anyone's radar.
* ???
* Bench QB in Decision Year
* Decline final year on Rookie Contract
* UnBench QB - squeak into playoffs
* Re-sign over-valued QB at highly inflated Rate
* Go to Step 2.
Harkening back to way back, hmmn, Weds, and our discussion on how quickly Impeachment might happen... the Intertubes say that an Impeachment vote is being planned for mid next week? And that strikes me as about as fast as these wheels can turn... but by the time it gets to the senate? That's why I thought the 25th is/was the only viable path... in this case the cumbersome mechanisms of the 25th work just fine with playing out the clock.
On a purely tactical note it is still the case that the only impeachment that would possibly work is one that is Republican backed... I'm hoping that the early reports that AOC had been delegated the task were media hype of AOC usurping the task and that this is what Politico is signaling:
"Two sets of articles of impeachment have already been drafted, and Democratic leaders have coalesced behind those led by Rep. David Cicilline (D-R.I.), a member of the House Judiciary Committee."
Given the simple framework of the scenario: Incitement to Riot and the Georgia Post-Election Stuff [insert appropriate legal term here]... would even recommend giving the drafting to any republican who would do it.
There mighn't be any... but if there is, then step aside.
My fear would be that the temptation would be to try to write some sweeping indictment of Trump, the Party, voters, any one who clicked on his election website, people who use facebook and some folks on twitter... you know who they are. Instead of keeping it tight and defensible (enough) for some Republicans to do the right thing.
The only thing better than an impromptu 7-day weekend granted by one of your exiting Top Exec (kinda like a corporate pardon? - no politics) is the 2-day work week that starts on Thurs. Hey, it's Friday already!
I must have gone to the well too many times because I said to my wife, "Hey what are we..." and she cut in: "Nothing, absolutely nothing." Jan and Feb are gonna be tough... usually we work in a fancy dinner / get-away weekend in one of those months... this year? Nothing absolutely nothing.
The only thing bolstering spirits is the addition/remodel we're doing... it's nearing completion and we're at the stage where instead of being excited about insulation batting we get to be excited about window trim and lighting... and giddy with anticipation at the tile. Probably over-compensating Jan/Feb/Covid blah's by overspending on the nesting/decorating budget. But anything is better than nothing absolutely nothing.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think the 25th is the most expeditious route. Since then, It seems POTUS has 'pledged' that there will be a peaceful transition. Obviously I have no insider info, but this strikes me as a concession granted to Pence. If true (and that's a big if)... I'm profoundly disappointed in Pence; a cowardly dereliction.
Right... I'm personally a little surprised that the ROE for the Capital don't have a red-line (I'm guessing the White House when the POTUS is present is a little different) where force becomes lethal.
But then... absent those sorts of lock-down and response training, we're getting the result we want: low casualties, dispersed mob, and temporary disruption.
We certainly could treat the capital (and other places) as no-go zones... but there probably would have been a few dead folks on the Whitehouse lawn over the summer.
So... a weird combination of having a policy that worked, and not really liking that that is our policy after the fact. Or so it seems.
Yeah, I don't know (in the genuine don't know kinda way)... even suspending procedures requires procedures. And the Senate has their own... and there are procedures that govern how the two houses interact with each other.
Maybe our resident parliamentarian Mr. Cain could shed some light on this...
Eh... there are things that need doing, notices posted, documents exchanged, meetings scheduled, etc. etc. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I don't know how feasible it is to work within the parliamentary framework and the rules of the House/Senate.
Sure, I think this is impeachable or 25th worthy... but as we note downthread, I'm not sure congress is capable of procedurally carrying out an impeachment in 14-days.
I'm curious if the constitution specifies whether the an impeachment process that is started must terminate if the person is no longer in office? Like if they resign? Or whether the impeachment could continue and skip (or affirm) removal and continue to the disqualification for future office stage?
Sure... I'm in favor of de-lawyerfying the process anyway. But realistically even the most simple gears of congress don't turn anywhere near fast enough.
My 16-yo daughter surprised me after I pointed her to the news... she said, "Now Pence should invoke the 25th... I wonder if he has the cabinet support" I can't say that we've discussed the 25th ever? Certainly not in the past couple of years since it wasn't topical.
I have to agree... if he has the support, he should do it... if he doesn't, he should publicly propose it and make it the Cabinet's problem.
Agreed... I think there are post-industrial ways to do it, and have written a bit on it... but I kinda think Unions 2.0 is a bad tactical and strategic approach.
Which likely means that absent Govt. support or some sort of Global Solidarity (and unicorns)... there's really only room for worker's movements at the tippy-tippy-irreplaceable-top and the un-exportable bottom.
The former usually have no need, and the latter usually have no means to do it. Plus... we the people don't really like unions/solidarity... it's a tax on our goods and services.
It would be funny if your fiance and I work for the same SV company...
This year would have been my 20-somethingth Sales kick-off (usually held in Vegas as we've gotten to be that big)... but we're going to do it over the same 4-day period as a virtual event; which strikes me as a disaster in the making. As your fiance notes, we're mostly going to seminars (product/solution updates) and key-notes (execs telling their plans for 2021) interspersed with team events and dinners. Plus its in Vegas, so downtime has lots of options. But 4-days in my home office? You've got to be kidding me. Glued to a screen for the ultimate - this could have been an email - update... without the benefits of facetime and networking?
I suppose it is worthwhile to note that Sales orgs were early adopters of Remote work... why have everyone at HQ in SF flying to Atlanta? Why not a satellite in Atlanta where people fly to DC? Why not just hire people in DC that go to Atlanta once a Quarter? And meet with the WW team once a year... in Vegas? Remember, we almost never see our Managers, team members and anyone who's "sales adjacent" but with whom we interact daily/weekly. It's pretty valuable to reinforce those connections, and I often used the time to connect with the sales adjacent folks to thank them, and, let's be honest, get to know them so when I needed my stuff worked on before the other jerk's stuff? They worked on the jerk they knew.
So as much as I treated Kick-off as an annual chore... the absence of it seems like a loss. Especially for a group that has loose ties, looser affiliations, and a me-first job.
I expect an additional dose of friction in an org that is fractious by nature. We'll see.
On “The Destructive High Water Mark of MAGA”
I guess I don't see Impeachment as a bloody horse head. It's a terrible threat because the runway is too long, so it doesn't compel good behavior just a sort of modulation to play against time.
I suppose its the professional experience in Sales that makes me extremely sensitive to time... time kills all deals is a common saying for us. You have to execute while you have focus, energy and support... all those things ebb away with time.
"
I haven't seen either, so will withhold judgement on which might be better... but my point stands, if the goal is removal/disqualification it doesn't matter whether the articles make *us* feel good, it only matters if they make 16 R's feel good enough to vote yes. That's the only audience that matters.
I don't mind Pelosi/Schumer calling Pence... heck they should be calling all R Senators too... but the *if* clause she was throwing around was stupid. If Pence doesn't invoke the 25th...? From the Speaker of the House? That's weak sauce. If she lost even a day with such nonsense (no idea if she did) then that's just on her.
I have a suspicion, though, that Congress as an institution really doesn't like Impeachment... I think it's sort of an inherent institutional bias... but I think it's real. I also think institutionally there are lots of things Congress can do, but doesn't like to do.
"
I probably wasn't clear... by swiftly I meant in the next 14 days +/- ... If we're "debating" the matter in April I'd suggest it's a dead letter and the backlash would be in the form of Senators refusing to vote for it since removal is already done and enough time would have passed that disqualification would seem like a political vendetta. That's what I mean by backlash in this context.
"
ooops... probably should have clarified that I was specifically referring the the last two sentences:
"let the GOP put their money where their mouth is and demonstrate where they stand on this matter. It would be illuminating and that’d be useful even if they didn’t vote to remove Trump"
"
Yes and no... that's sort of my point... it would be really easy to write articles of impeachment that would actually give cover to R's for *not* voting to impeach. The harder route is not doing that. Have to find the, what, 16 Senators that might be persuadable and write it exactly to their specifications. And, as I note above, it's also time sensitive.
But if the goal is rhetorical... then it's still only effective as I describe above.
Anything else would only be rhetorically effective for the same tribe.
On “Weekend Plans Post: First Weekend after the First Real Week of 2021”
Ouch. Lovely ballpark though. Once convinced our Marketing group to rent a skybox for a 'customer event' at Camden. That was fun.
On “The Destructive High Water Mark of MAGA”
Thanks... I was wondering if an impeachment could continue after the person no longer held the office.
Politically this only really works in a small window... once Biden is already president and Private Citizen Trump is tweeting in Mar-a-Lago... you're playing the calculus of whether disqualifying Trump is better for some subset of Senators and whether there are enough 'other' Senators who will work with the Stabby Senators to do the Stabbing so those other Senators can pretend not to stab.
Plus, absent the immediacy and 'over lawyering' the case will simply deprive those factions of the plausibility cover they would need to act... so I don't see anything happening at all in, say, April. In fact, by April I'd see a backlash.
Might not like the calculus, but that's what it would be...
On “Weekend Plans Post: First Weekend after the First Real Week of 2021”
Well, it could be worse, we could be Mets fans...
"
My favorite storyline is the Pace/Trubitsky Harvard Business Review Cautionary Tale in the making.
* Trade a 2nd/3rd/4th rounder to move up One (1) spot in the draft to pick a QB not on anyone's radar.
* ???
* Bench QB in Decision Year
* Decline final year on Rookie Contract
* UnBench QB - squeak into playoffs
* Re-sign over-valued QB at highly inflated Rate
* Go to Step 2.
On “The Destructive High Water Mark of MAGA”
Harkening back to way back, hmmn, Weds, and our discussion on how quickly Impeachment might happen... the Intertubes say that an Impeachment vote is being planned for mid next week? And that strikes me as about as fast as these wheels can turn... but by the time it gets to the senate? That's why I thought the 25th is/was the only viable path... in this case the cumbersome mechanisms of the 25th work just fine with playing out the clock.
On a purely tactical note it is still the case that the only impeachment that would possibly work is one that is Republican backed... I'm hoping that the early reports that AOC had been delegated the task were media hype of AOC usurping the task and that this is what Politico is signaling:
"Two sets of articles of impeachment have already been drafted, and Democratic leaders have coalesced behind those led by Rep. David Cicilline (D-R.I.), a member of the House Judiciary Committee."
Given the simple framework of the scenario: Incitement to Riot and the Georgia Post-Election Stuff [insert appropriate legal term here]... would even recommend giving the drafting to any republican who would do it.
There mighn't be any... but if there is, then step aside.
My fear would be that the temptation would be to try to write some sweeping indictment of Trump, the Party, voters, any one who clicked on his election website, people who use facebook and some folks on twitter... you know who they are. Instead of keeping it tight and defensible (enough) for some Republicans to do the right thing.
On “Weekend Plans Post: First Weekend after the First Real Week of 2021”
Go Football Team Go. Football well you Footballers. (Well akshually, in Europe...)
Eh, I'll watch the Bears wander around the middle part of the field for a few hours... so there's that, I guess.
"
The only thing better than an impromptu 7-day weekend granted by one of your exiting Top Exec (kinda like a corporate pardon? - no politics) is the 2-day work week that starts on Thurs. Hey, it's Friday already!
I must have gone to the well too many times because I said to my wife, "Hey what are we..." and she cut in: "Nothing, absolutely nothing." Jan and Feb are gonna be tough... usually we work in a fancy dinner / get-away weekend in one of those months... this year? Nothing absolutely nothing.
The only thing bolstering spirits is the addition/remodel we're doing... it's nearing completion and we're at the stage where instead of being excited about insulation batting we get to be excited about window trim and lighting... and giddy with anticipation at the tile. Probably over-compensating Jan/Feb/Covid blah's by overspending on the nesting/decorating budget. But anything is better than nothing absolutely nothing.
On “The Destructive High Water Mark of MAGA”
Elaine Chao, cabinet member, resigning because Pence won't invoke the 25th would be newsworthy... this is just meaningless positioning.
On “Impeach Him, Tonight”
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think the 25th is the most expeditious route. Since then, It seems POTUS has 'pledged' that there will be a peaceful transition. Obviously I have no insider info, but this strikes me as a concession granted to Pence. If true (and that's a big if)... I'm profoundly disappointed in Pence; a cowardly dereliction.
On “Joint Session of Congress to Confirm Electoral Vote: Open Thread”
Right... I'm personally a little surprised that the ROE for the Capital don't have a red-line (I'm guessing the White House when the POTUS is present is a little different) where force becomes lethal.
But then... absent those sorts of lock-down and response training, we're getting the result we want: low casualties, dispersed mob, and temporary disruption.
We certainly could treat the capital (and other places) as no-go zones... but there probably would have been a few dead folks on the Whitehouse lawn over the summer.
So... a weird combination of having a policy that worked, and not really liking that that is our policy after the fact. Or so it seems.
"
Yeah, I don't know (in the genuine don't know kinda way)... even suspending procedures requires procedures. And the Senate has their own... and there are procedures that govern how the two houses interact with each other.
Maybe our resident parliamentarian Mr. Cain could shed some light on this...
"
Yeah, we preferred it when we knew exactly what she didn't know.
Of course on Twitter I said she was 3... I have a brand to maintain, you know.
"
Eh... there are things that need doing, notices posted, documents exchanged, meetings scheduled, etc. etc. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I don't know how feasible it is to work within the parliamentary framework and the rules of the House/Senate.
"
Sure, I think this is impeachable or 25th worthy... but as we note downthread, I'm not sure congress is capable of procedurally carrying out an impeachment in 14-days.
I'm curious if the constitution specifies whether the an impeachment process that is started must terminate if the person is no longer in office? Like if they resign? Or whether the impeachment could continue and skip (or affirm) removal and continue to the disqualification for future office stage?
"
I agree with Oscar. It's fine to call it a coup... but its not a coup. Or, another way, it's exactly the quality of coup one would expect from DJT.
The legal ramifications for some of those folks? Ouch, the law doesn't distinguish between stupid and smart coups.
"
Sure... I'm in favor of de-lawyerfying the process anyway. But realistically even the most simple gears of congress don't turn anywhere near fast enough.
"
My 16-yo daughter surprised me after I pointed her to the news... she said, "Now Pence should invoke the 25th... I wonder if he has the cabinet support" I can't say that we've discussed the 25th ever? Certainly not in the past couple of years since it wasn't topical.
I have to agree... if he has the support, he should do it... if he doesn't, he should publicly propose it and make it the Cabinet's problem.
On “From the New York Times: Hundreds of Google Employees Unionize, Culminating Years of Activism”
Agreed... I think there are post-industrial ways to do it, and have written a bit on it... but I kinda think Unions 2.0 is a bad tactical and strategic approach.
"
Which likely means that absent Govt. support or some sort of Global Solidarity (and unicorns)... there's really only room for worker's movements at the tippy-tippy-irreplaceable-top and the un-exportable bottom.
The former usually have no need, and the latter usually have no means to do it. Plus... we the people don't really like unions/solidarity... it's a tax on our goods and services.
On “Virtual Conferences: Where Do We Go From Here?”
It would be funny if your fiance and I work for the same SV company...
This year would have been my 20-somethingth Sales kick-off (usually held in Vegas as we've gotten to be that big)... but we're going to do it over the same 4-day period as a virtual event; which strikes me as a disaster in the making. As your fiance notes, we're mostly going to seminars (product/solution updates) and key-notes (execs telling their plans for 2021) interspersed with team events and dinners. Plus its in Vegas, so downtime has lots of options. But 4-days in my home office? You've got to be kidding me. Glued to a screen for the ultimate - this could have been an email - update... without the benefits of facetime and networking?
I suppose it is worthwhile to note that Sales orgs were early adopters of Remote work... why have everyone at HQ in SF flying to Atlanta? Why not a satellite in Atlanta where people fly to DC? Why not just hire people in DC that go to Atlanta once a Quarter? And meet with the WW team once a year... in Vegas? Remember, we almost never see our Managers, team members and anyone who's "sales adjacent" but with whom we interact daily/weekly. It's pretty valuable to reinforce those connections, and I often used the time to connect with the sales adjacent folks to thank them, and, let's be honest, get to know them so when I needed my stuff worked on before the other jerk's stuff? They worked on the jerk they knew.
So as much as I treated Kick-off as an annual chore... the absence of it seems like a loss. Especially for a group that has loose ties, looser affiliations, and a me-first job.
I expect an additional dose of friction in an org that is fractious by nature. We'll see.