Lots of Lingering Questions on the Trump Immunity Ruling

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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23 Responses

  1. Glyph
    Ignored
    says:

    “In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives.”

    As a non-lawyer, this is one of the most perplexing pieces of all this. Inquiring into motive is absolutely essential to determining the nature of all kinds of actions. Motive is largely the difference between self-defense and murder. Motive is what makes a payment of money in exchange for a favor a bribe, rather than a gift (the money is literally intended to *motivate* the desired actor to the desired action).

    If I want to know whether engaging in attempts to overturn election results are “official”, and thus immune from criminal prosecution, or “unofficial” and not-immune, then it sure seems to me that inquiry into motive (state of mind, the “why” etc.) is *crucial*.

    I want to know if the person had good reason to believe there had been election fraud/error or legitimate questions of law or process (and thus, even if wrong, were acting in good faith, exactly as we would expect an officer of a democratic government to act); or if they were simply cynically trying to hold on to power by any means necessary and know good and well and for a goddamned fact that they lost.

    To forbid inquiry into motive seemingly torpedoes the fact-finding process at its start. “This was caused by that” is at the heart of how we make determinations, whether you’re a jury or a judge or a homicide detective or a scientist.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to Glyph
      Ignored
      says:

      Yup this right here. It gives the Prez a very special kind of immunity that would make many/most prosecutions impossible.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Glyph
      Ignored
      says:

      No no, that’s not what the court wants. The court (I am no longer going to capitalize the supreme court. I know it’s petty, but I’m done with this pretending it’s some sort of valid thing.) doesn’t want any examination of why anyone did anything, they have decided that there are entire parts of reality that the president cannot do illegally, no matter what the motive or what happens.

      Which yes, do include killing people, and imprisoning people and pretty much any power that the president actually has in any sense, cannot be done illegally. He can be bribed to illegally detain someone, and because ‘detaining someone’ is part of his official powers, this cannot be questioned.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
        Ignored
        says:

        You see, they have to make it not depend on motive, because if it depended on motive, what Trump was doing is obviously invalid.

        In fact, to be clear, what Trump was doing is probably not technically a crime anyway. It was merely being used as evidence of a crime, specifically, of evidence of his deliberate attempt to do a coup.

        So they had to exclude motive, and they also had to exclude even talking about it in any manner, had to make it completely out of bounds, because otherwise it could still be used as evidence, even if there is immunity.Report

      • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
        Ignored
        says:

        “I am no longer going to capitalize the supreme court. I know it’s petty, but I’m done with this pretending it’s some sort of valid thing.”

        The leftist never respects institutions. He’ll merely use them when possible, and praise them when it gives him some benefit.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky
          Ignored
          says:

          It is revolutionaries and insurrectionists who regard existing institutions as illegitimate.

          Insurrectionists can be found in all corners of politics.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
            Ignored
            says:

            Revolutionaries = Good
            Insurrectionists = Bad

            I don’t know why you can’t keep this straight.

            My side has Revolutionaries who want to change things in the name of Progress.
            Your side has Insurrectionists who want to change things but they want to change them in a Reactionary fashion to a thing that never existed.

            Until the Supreme Court is repaired, it won’t be capable of Progress. We have to change it back to the state when it was.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              George Washington and Vladimir Lenin were both revolutionaries. One revolution turned out to be good, one turned out to be bad.

              The fact that all revolutionaries see themselves as good is why it is important to look past the lofty rhetoric and see what it is that they want to do.

              In our current political moment, the Democrats are defending the status quo and existing institutions, and the Republicans are the revolutionaries attempting a restoration of the status quo ante.

              This is why we keep mentioning Project 2025 and Trump’s promises to be a dictator and use the power of government to persecute his enemies because it shows which kind of revolution MAGA is.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah, the worst would be getting behind a politician who uses the power of government to persecute enemies.

                That would be tyranny.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                So, you think the DoJ prosecutions of TFG are politically motivated? Good to know.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                No.
                He did NOT say that.
                Remember, he has said repeatedly he doesn’t have any insightful or interesting ideas about American politics.
                No arguments to make, no points to prove.

                Comments like there are simply to offer observations, like “Donald Trump was convicted of crimes.”

                How you choose to interpret the observation is up to you.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah. Only partisans can have interesting ideas, we established.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                You don’t believe that. Neither does Jaybird. If he’s not going to make clear, direct statements, I will continue to call him for it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                If the argument that we shouldn’t elect Trump because he’ll use the power of government to persecute his enemies, I think that that’s worth interrogating.

                I mean… have you heard the argument that the people who make such arguments are projecting?

                It’s not something that can be argued against with something as simple as responding with an eloquent “so you’re saying”.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                He has openly said he wants to prosecute Joe Biden. He used to lead chants of “Lock her up” at rallies in the 2016 campaign. Not sure what to interrogate, nor why anyone would accuse liberals of projecting when those are direct quotes.

                Never mind the Project 2025 language about purging the federal civil service of liberals and Democrats. Because – and this isn’t really a secret – the federal civil service already employs Republicans, and they haven’t been purged by the Biden Administration.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                This should be obvious, but: he didn’t lock her up.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                Only because he and his team couldn’t figure out how to do so.

                And unlike 2016, we have to take him literally and seriously this time.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Also too-
                Trump has been convicted by a jury of his peers of crimes.

                No one has yet put forward any credible evidence of Biden being guilty of crimes.

                This is where the BSDI stuff becomes absurdly stupid.

                Of course all revolutionaries claim to be good; But objective evidence shows that some are good and some are not;

                Of course tyrants and liberal democracies both prosecute officials; But objective evidence shows that some accused are guilty, while others are innocent.

                From the standpoint of democracy and the rule of law, the Democratic candidate is objectively supportive, while the Republican candidate is objectively hostile.

                This isn’t an opinion, its a demonstrable fact.

                (Referencing my comment above, this is why Jaybird tries very, very hard to avoid making a actual argument, in defense of Trump and relies instead on the motte of “Just making observations.)Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky
          Ignored
          says:

          respect is earned, not just given.Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to Pinky
          Ignored
          says:

          If only there was a way to post pictures of Jan. 6, 2021.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Slade the Leveller
            Ignored
            says:

            Both sides have done it. One side is it. Leftism inherently rejects institutions. A stupid rightist may riot at the Capitol thinking he’s defending an institution. The average leftist will respect the institution of the Supreme Court only to the extent that the Court subverts the institution of the Constitution.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky
              Ignored
              says:

              Leftists reject institutions?

              Institutions like higher education?
              Institutions like law enforcement and the judiciary?
              Institutions like the military?
              Institutions like government bureaucracy?
              Institutions like schools?
              Institutions like labor unions?
              Institutions like small volunteer organizations like Scouts and PTA groups?

              Liberals criticize these when they don’t perform their stated objectives.

              Trumpists have attacked every single one of these and vowed to destroy them BECAUSE they performed their stated objectives.Report

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