Fools and Knaves and the FDA

Will Truman

Will Truman is the Editor-in-Chief of Ordinary Times. He is also on Twitter.

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26 Responses

  1. Jaybird says:

    An excellent essay full of excellent points.

    The main counter-argument in defense of how the FDA is doing it that I’ve seen goes something like this:

    It is not the job of the FDA to approve the next mRNA shot that protects against The Theta Variant.
    It is the job of the FDA to prevent the next thalidomide.

    But the FDA’s misdeeds during this pandemic are not limited to following the rules-as-written regarding vaccines. They include not letting your apple watch act as blood oxygen monitor. They include squashing the coronavirus tests being developed by various colleges. (We discussed the excessive reach of the FDA many times in comments here at the site… here is a representative thread.)

    The thought experiment I keep going back to involves a friend who needs a medical product that was available in Europe but not available in the US. A contact in Europe is able to mail this product, which has been approved by the EMA, to the friend.

    My response is always to say something like “Good! I’m glad he can get his hands on it!” rather than some variant of “he’s doing something foolish as this product has not been approved by the FDA.”

    For the record, I’m glad we were able to get our hands on the Moderna vaccine.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    I don’t understand the problem here.

    There are plenty of cases where a general rule of safety is broken for emergency response.

    We don’t actually “know” that the vaccines are safe, but we have decided that the compelling necessity of the pandemic overrides the unknown risks.

    What am I missing here, that causes such concern?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I think that this paragraph in the essay will answer your question:

      To also be clear: I frankly don’t much care. Well, that’s not entirely true. The more it is preventing people from getting vaccinated the more it matters to me. But even if it is having no effect at all on uptake, it is fundamentally a problem that we have a drug we more-or-less know is safe but have a barrier to our saying so and are giving people reason to lack confidence. It’s a credibility problem when believing or repeating the warnings of our highest regulatory agency makes you a fool or a knave.

      Here’s the question: If someone believed or repeated the warnings given by the FDA and Pfizer about the Pfizer vaccine, are they being dishonest or disingenuous or dis-something?Report

    • There’s no perfect knowledge of safety, but according to Dr Fauci the level of certainty we have is on par with drugs that have full approval. And we are sufficiently certain that we have decided that people who refuse the drug should lose their jobs and other forms of social engagement (some pretty basic, in the case of people on parole pending appeals).

      These things shouldn’t be happening with the level of uncertainty described on the label. We certainly shouldn’t be forcing our military (who unlike others can’t just simply quit) to act as guinea pigs. There’s a lot of stuff we shouldn’t be doing that we are because, as Fauci states, everybody in relevant authority believes the efficacy and safety are sufficient for full FDA approval. We’ve had a level of realworld use that drugs approved by the FDA very rarely get. We are, if anything, more sure about this than most.

      My view is that the level of authorization and approval needs to reflect that knowledge.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Will Truman says:

        You don’t find the “pandemic emergency” a compelling reason to force people to do things which we openly acknowledge might be too risky to do otherwise?Report

        • Some things yes. Experimental drugs no. What the label describes is an experimental drug.

          But it kind of works itself out, really. Because of the pandemic we have tons and tons of realworld data. Which in turn gives us a lot of information on safety and efficacy. Which, if we can rely on that for the paperwork the way we have relied on that elsewhere, gives a level of certainty that is (in my view) consistent with mandates.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Will Truman says:

        My view is that the level of authorization and approval needs to reflect that knowledge.

        I would say so far it does, as does the process. The EUA pulled the vaccines to the head of very long line, and depending on who you read, took a year or two off the approval process. That’s about the best you will get from an agency that is statutorily risk averse.

        I would also remind you that a LOT of that labeling – particularly for pharmaceuticals – comes from internal to company lawyers who all remember the Tylenol deaths in the 1980’s.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H says:

          The FDA isn’t really risk-averse. They seem to be rather cavalier about the risk of deaths and human suffering resulting from delaying the release of new treatments onto the market. It’s probably more accurate to say that they’re biased against approval, and overweight the risk from type I errors relative to the risk from type II errors.Report

        • Will Truman in reply to Philip H says:

          I don’t think it does. I’m actually quite certain it doesn’t because the FDA cannot consider evidence outside specific lanes. My contention is that the realworld data is more than enough to compensate for the relative lack of assembled controlled data. This contention is affirmed by how public health treats the drug outside the approval process.

          Is it the FDA’s fault it cannot consider that evidence? I’m not sure*, but that then becomes an argument to change revisit the process. If not for this round, then for the next time.

          * – My understanding is that the FDA has quite a bit of latitude over its own rules. There are mandate limitations in what falls under their umbrella, but less so in setting up processes. I know they set up the approval process for vaping on their own once they were given the authority to do so. I could be convinced that their hands are tied, or that re-evaluating the process in the middle of a pandemic is a bad idea, but (a) I’m not fully convinced and (b) even if I were a lot of this piece is to re-evaluate for next time.Report

        • JS in reply to Philip H says:

          “The EUA pulled the vaccines to the head of very long line, and depending on who you read, took a year or two off the approval process.”

          Much of the “long process” that was skipped was the lengthy bit where you wait until, statistically, enough of your trial participants had been exposed to the virus ‘in the wild’ to give you a good enough dataset on efficacy.

          Worldwide pandemics, that’s pretty fast.

          The only thing we’re missing now is the long-term effects, but even then then the massive number of people infected with COVID-19 comes to the rescue. As long-term effects follow a normal distribution, the sheer numbers of people vaccinated mean we’d have enough people showing “early” long term effects to suss out the percentages.

          FWIW, Modern and Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccines at least appear to be basically one of the safest vaccines on the market, more safe than the AZ and JJ versions — both of which had the side effects and risks common to that TYPE of vaccine.Report

          • JS in reply to JS says:

            Switched names again to peddle BS?Report

            • Philip H in reply to JS says:

              Apparently – from his link:

              In a report submitted today to the Israeli Ministry of Health, they conclude that between one in 3000 and one in 6000 men ages 16 to 24 who received the vaccine developed the rare condition. But most cases were mild and resolved within a few weeks, which is typical for myocarditis. “I can’t imagine it’s going to be anything that would cause medical people to say we shouldn’t vaccinate kids,” says Douglas Diekema, a pediatrician and bioethicist at Seattle Children’s Hospital.

              He can’t even read his own citation accurately.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

          “The EUA pulled the vaccines to the head of very long line, and depending on who you read, took a year or two off the approval process.”

          But they’re not approved.

          “oh but it’s like the same thing–”

          No, it’s not the same thing. It’s really not, and that’s really important to remember, because it actually represents the way that the FDA (and the government in general) has been operating during the COVID-19 pandemic. Which is, “this is bad but it won’t kill everybody, and after it’s over any restriction we relax or regulation we waive will have to be fought back into place, and we won’t even be able to claim that removing it would kill everybody because that demonstrably did not happen.”

          The FDA has always been thinking about “after the pandemic”, and thinking about how most of its power and authority exist because of inertia, and how if it lets that inertia stumble — if it admits that maybe everything isn’t Potentially Thalidomide, and lets manufacturers operate on that basis — then nobody will pay attention to it at all, ever again, other than as a standards-and-certification body like Underwriters’ Laboratories.

          Which, actually, wouldn’t be such a bad thing; insurance companies can most certainly require FDA certification for drugs and treatments, and declare that they won’t pay for anything not certified! But the FDA won’t be able to stop people selling things, and they won’t have government authority to prevent non-certified things from going to market.

          So that’s why there’s an EUA. Nobody at the FDA genuinely thinks that the vaccines are bad or will cause problems, but they haven’t been through the Review And Approval Process, and that’s why they get a Special Double-Secret Probation Approval.Report

  3. Damon says:

    This is one of the two reasons I’ve not gotten the injection. The test results were/are preliminary, and from what I’ve read, possibly over optimistic of the shot’s effectiveness (given how the tests was conducted). Two, the shot is not legally a vaccine, and as such, is not subject to the vax reimbursement fund. It MAY be covered under the PREP act, but I couldn’t get a clear answer when I last looked it up, so assuming that’s a “no”, the receiver of the shot bears the full risk, and expense, of any harm resulting from taking the shot. That could be a lot of $$, not to mention some unpleasant side effects. I’m content to wait for the approval, especially since the shot isn’t like any of the other vaccines I’ve had of the past 15 years.Report

    • Will Truman in reply to Damon says:

      So when approval comes, will you get vaccinated then?

      Also, I believe here is the answer to your question.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Will Truman says:

        I hate it when those webpages do this particular thing:

        Q: I am asking my question?
        A: Click here to go to the FAQ page with the answer to your question.

        Anyway, here’s the C&P of the FAQ page:

        Will the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program provide compensation to individuals injured by COVID-19 vaccines?

        COVID-19 vaccines are covered countermeasures under the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP), not the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP).

        This is stuff I didn’t know.

        (DUDE: GET THE SHOT.)Report

      • Damon in reply to Will Truman says:

        Most likely. Depends upon what the actual result of the study comes back with, and what those possible negative outcomes may do given my own personal health issues. I will read the results and the set up parameters VERY closely.Report

  4. Heisenberg says:

    Ugh. Full approval isn’t just about safety and efficacy data. That was covered with the EUA. The biggest part of it (and most time consuming) is inspection of the manufacturing facilities up and down the supply chain to ensure quality control, so that each dose is consistent.

    So what part of that inspection process do you want to cut corners on? Be specific.Report

    • Will Truman in reply to Heisenberg says:

      If we can’t vouch for its production then we can’t really vouch for its safety, van we? One is a function of the other. If we can’t vouch for the production because the facilities have not been inspected up to FDA standards, then that should be reflected in how the safety is communicated and whether we require people to take it to keep their jobs or go to college.

      And if they have not been thoroughly inspected the FDA definitely should not be saying things like “the FDA conducted a thorough scientific evaluation of each of the authorized vaccines and can assure the public and medical community that the vaccines meet FDA’s rigorous standards for safety, effectiveness, and manufacturing quality.”

      My guess, though, is they feel safe making comments like that because manufacturing quality, like the rest, has been tested in realworld use. In addition to what inspecting they’ve done, we’ve been taking the drugs manufactured through this process for over six months and found problems as they turned up.Report

      • Full licensing has always required that the manufacturing processes sufficiently far up the supply chain be brought under the FDA’s initial approval and ongoing inspection regulations. This is a problem for some of the generic drug manufacturers: the IP protections have lapsed, the production processes are understood, but the profits from generic sales don’t justify the large costs of getting the manufacturing approvals.

        J&J didn’t do anyone any favors when they had to discard 75M doses of their vaccine because 15M were faulty and 60M done outside of the regular manufacturing protocol couldn’t be shown to be proper. Moderna has had some supply chain quality issues that were caught much later in the process than the FDA would accept for a license. European regulators have found cases where BioNTech’s QC was allowing excessive amounts of defective mRNA into the vaccines.Report

        • I don’t doubt that it’s a part of the process, but apparently they are satisfied with what they’ve seen (either through the inspections they’ve done or the products out there) to say that it meets their standards. So I don’t think that’s the hold up here.

          To answer Heisenberg’s questions about what testing/inspection they don’t need to do, it is whatever they have left to do between being able to assure us their standards have been met and full approval.

          But to go back to my original comment to Heisenberg, if this is wrong and we have not yet done enough to assure its safety (including manufacturing), then our mandate policies and public health comments should reflect that uncertainty rather than the relative degree of certainty now being expressed.

          I don’t believe that is the case, but if they do then they should communicate that.Report

  5. Heisenberg says:

    It looks like my last comment was deleted by the mods? Ah well, should have known better than to ask a serious question.Report

    • Will Truman in reply to Heisenberg says:

      It evidently was, but shouldn’t have been. As you can see, I responded to it in a timely fashion (my comment disappeared with yours). We have been dealing with a banned user leaving a ton of anti-vaccination comments and perhaps it was wrongly thought to be one of those.Report