Linky Friday: Tangled Webs, Weaved and Otherwise Edition

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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48 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    LF7: That is the problem with Grievance/Victim Politics, everyone can find a way to play!Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Same for every other type of politics. I haven’t heard of a convincing replacement for “grievance/victim” politics beyond get rid of the old bad laws and hope for the best. Considering the nature of American racism, the success rate is low.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Exactly, look at what was causing the problem and try to fix the cause. Special treatment, no matter how it’s justified, just encourages others to play the game.Report

      • Greginak in reply to LeeEsq says:

        “playing the victim” is not new. Good old fashioned Southrons in the slave south fashioned themselves victims of the North so they had to go to war. They were sure as hell victims of the North and free blacks during reconstruction.

        Being a victim can be a power play or just simple blindness or a real thing.Report

  2. LeeEsq says:

    LF2: It seems that cancel culture, to the extent that it exists, is basically a result of dualistic thinking. Somebody believes that something they support is totally righteous. It could be Israel, Palestine, 1619 project, the opposite to the 1619 projection or something else. Therefore, anybody who believes the opposite must be silenced.

    At least online and maybe off line, there seems to be this war of attrition to create an orthodoxy of beliefs that must be held by everybody. No disagreement allowed.Report

    • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq says:

      I don’t think that’s quite true. The left is happy to allow disagreement and debate, but what we won’t tolerate any longer is misogyny and bigotry masquerading as disagreement.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        …with them defining anything they disagree with as bigotry.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          There’s plenty we disagree with as policy that’s not bigotry. But we refuse to stop calling out bigotry when we see it. Systemic Racism is a thing, it has impacts and it has to be countered if our nation is ever going to live up to its ideals.

          And frankly the Right does itself no favors by pretending its NOT doing things for the blatant reasons its doing things. Take the January 6th Commission – both sides can benefit from an honest accounting of that day and a bipartisan congressional commission is a great way to get to that honesty. But after the Right made demands regarding the composure of the commission, staffing and subpoena powers which the Left agreed to, the Right said no thanks and the accused the Left of bargaining in bad faith. The Senate is poised to kill the Commission. And it was obvious the the left this would be the outcome, but we tried comity anyway.

          The conclusion is the Right doesn’t want the truth. They want power and they will do whatever power takes. That’s a HUGE policy disagreement and it will damage democracy, but its not bigotry and no one on the left has called it such.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

            OK, so name me a generally conservative or Republican policy position that isn’t frequently depicted as motivated by bigotry.Report

            • Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky says:

              Desire to control all sources of information: academia, media, social media, etc. That’s simple power-madness, not bigotry.Report

            • Greginak in reply to Pinky says:

              Endless tax cuts for the rich, ending inheritance taxes. Do the R’s have any other policies?Report

            • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

              Removal of environmental regulations.

              Forcing businesses to allow/serve people who refuse to be vaccinated for COVID (See Florida for how this is currently playing out).

              COVID denial generally

              Climate change denial generally

              Abortion . . .Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

              Be careful what you ask for.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

              Still waiting for one example that I haven’t seen on this site attributed to bigotry. I mean, maybe Mike has one, but just because I’ve never heard anyone say that conservatives want to control all of academia.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Bigotry, by it’s nature tends to be interwoven into nearly every issue.

                If someone’s worldview is that the Irish are subhuman savages, then whatever things the Irish do, or like, or want, becomes hateful, even when it something that the bigot himself does or likes or wants.

                So like when welfare is something that white people get (as it was in the Depression) it is a good fiscal policy.
                But when it becomes something black unwed mothers do, it becomes bad fiscal policy.

                There is plenty of writing about how white Evangelical Christians supported abortion rights, until the mid 70’s when it became linked to feminism and civil rights, something that Those People did.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So as a practical matter, what I said to Philip was correct, that the left’s claim of intolerance of bigotry gives them freedom to denounce any opposition.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Sure, if you wanted to exemplify my point that the right doesn’t see structural injustice as real, but merely a grift.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Specific examples of structural injustice could be real, but generally, yeah, non-specific claims of structural injustice are at minimum a mistake and at worst a grift. Since correlation doesn’t prove causation, I don’t consider disparate impact to be proof.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                And for clarity’s sake, you’ve said that tax cuts, environmental deregulation, and the covid reaction are driven by bigotry, correct?Report

          • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H says:

            The problem with the idea of systemic racism is that it’s pure normative sociology. A problem is observed—black people have worse socioeconomic outcomes than white people. What is the cause? Who cares? The important question is what the cause ought to be, and the answer is racism.

            The systemic racism hypothesis is not the outcome of a rigorous process of causal inference, but of a highly motivated search for the most plausible arguments that can be mustered in support of a pre-determined conclusion. And they really aren’t that plausible.

            This logic (such as it is) is, of course, not applied consistently. Why are whites overrepresented in Congress? White supremacy. Why are Jews even more overrepresented in Congress? We don’t talk about that. Why are black people killed by police at 2-3x the rate per capita at which white people are? White supremacy. Why are white people killed by police at 2-3x the rate per capita at which Asian people are? We don’t talk about that. It’s special pleading through and through.

            Much as with socialism and Trumpism, the whole ideology is an intellectual joke.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Philip H says:

        I wouldn’t go so far as Pinky does but I’ve found that pointing out some problems with the Left can get you hammered pretty quickly. There is a we have decided eliminate to the Online Left and Online Right that can be difficult to handle because both groups are trying to shape the world in their pen image.Report

        • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq says:

          In case you haven’t notice I get hammered quite regularly around here and I keep going. I also hammer the Left when it makes bad tactical and strategic moves.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

          Illiberalism on the left is a fact so no point in arguing that.

          But structural injustice is different than individual incidences of illiberalism.

          For instance, white people, generally speaking, are unfamiliar with personal experiences of injustice. We read about it, and are sympathetic, but when we see the red lights in the rear view mirror, we are irritated, not terrified.

          But being ratioed on Twitter, socially ostracized, or even fired from a job is a real fear of middle class white men; We can imagine it, and sense it, maybe we’ve known people to whom it has happened.

          So it becomes understandable to see this as “examples of oppression” , on par with say, the systemic oppression that other nonwhite people experience. The old joke of how you falling in a pit and dying is comedy, but me getting a paper cut is tragedy comes to mind.

          People don’t actually say it this way of course (the occasional Eve Fartlow notwithstanding).
          But its implicit in all the Quillete articles, the whining on Federalist, in every word and utterance of Trump, that they are victims, terribly oppressed victims.

          In their view, structural and systemic oppression has no color component, doesn’t affect any one group more than any other. Its what people call the dogma of white innocence.Report

  3. Pinky says:

    LF5 – This need for decision-making skills brings up a point that Jordan Peterson often makes. Best to let him tell it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Ur71ZnNVkReport

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    LF2:
    Cathy Young assures us that she is “not doing whattaboutism”, but that’s exactly the point of her essay. It might as well have been titled “But What About Your White Men?”

    At base, she sees injustice as a sort of scorekeeping exercise where the scales constantly need to be kept in balance.

    She contrasts Wilders’ egregiously political firing to a nurse nurse fired after she posted an admittedly obnoxious video criticizing Black Lives Matter and refusing to “apologize for being white”.
    Are these on the same level of injustice and harm?

    No, but see, the scales need to be balanced somehow so a charge here needs to be countered with a riposte there.

    In the case of Nikole Hannah-Jones, Young’s efforts get even more ridiculous. She contrasts Jones’ outrageously political denial of tenure with an imaginary one:
    Suppose the chair was offered to New York Times columnist and Pulitzer Prize winner Bret Stephens—or to Hannah-Jones’s “canceled” ex-colleague Donald McNeil, the veteran, award-winning science reporter and Pulitzer contender.
    Can anyone doubt that in either case, many of the same professors now up in arms over the lack of tenure for Hannah-Jones would be vocally against even a non-tenured post?

    Are affluent prominent white men like Stephens treated with the same systemic injustice as black women?
    Of course not, but Young’s logic holds that they must, so therefore no one should assume that “cancellation” is coming mostly from the right, no sirree its equal on both sides you understand.
    For Young, systemic injustice perpetrated against ethnic minorities isn’t a deep problem to be addressed so much as a game to be worked for other, more important ends.

    Its difficult for me to take this as anything other than bad faith attempt to protect the systemic injustice which Young so eagerly ignores in favor of scorekeeping.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I largely agree with you but Stephens is Jewish and this is doing that Jews are white or not depending on the needs at the time thing.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        When I read the New Republic piece or similar pieces discussing white men or white people, I always get a slight impression that they want to put Jews in the White column but don’t do so explicitly because reasons.

        A lot of the non-Jewish Left likes appealing to Jews based on our experience of persecution but they don’t like Jewish activists who decided to fight for the rights of the Jewish People as their cause like the Zionists. They admire and respect Black activists, Native American activists, LGBT activists but impose universal requirements on Jews. Many of the members of the Irgun under went horrific persecution but they are seen as devils rather than romanticized like the Black Panthers are.Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    They were all in love with dying, they were drinking from a mountain: https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1398098100355485698?s=20Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    LF3: I guess they know that they need to incubate a new generation of angry white men. Rush started his show when he was in his 30s but 30-somethings in the 1980s were much more conservative than 30-somethings today. One of the hosts tries to market himself as a “moderate” but moderate might as well be one of the most empty words in politics.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Their big problem is demograhpics – only 29% of Americans openly identify as Republicans, and only 44% of independents lean Republican. Assuming that conservative talk radio only captures a portion of that universe, their listener base is shrinking, which means revenues are going down. They know this, but they won’t confront the 29% frankly and so they are stuck in the same do loop the GOP is stuck in.Report

  7. LF7 — Also see Christians claiming to be victims because their cultural power is no longer absolute.Report

  8. LeeEsq says:

    Somebody is apparently marketing Not Vaccinated yellow stars. I’m just sick at this point.Report

  9. If we enjoy the long weekend, the terrorists win.Report