For All Mankind: A Peek Into What Could Have Been

Dennis Sanders

Dennis is the pastor of a small Protestant congregation outside St. Paul, MN and also a part-time communications consultant. A native of Michigan, you can check out his writings over on Medium and subscribe to his Substack newsletter on religion and politics called Polite Company.  Dennis lives in Minneapolis with his husband Daniel.

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62 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    There is a certain logic to sending probes/robots into space to explore ahead of us, and we getting very good at that.

    But I’ve also noticed that our risk aversion is inconsistent. We really, really don’t want to see our astronauts die or our space craft lost, but we are all seemingly OK with tossing away a far greater number of lives and cost (in equipment and rebuilt infrastructure) for military campaigns.Report

    • I see it as a different sort of risk-averse: doing much more than Apollo requires starting over. Apollo was designed to be a single-launch mission; the Shuttle executed single-launch missions; the Soviets’ N1 was part of what would be single-launch missions. The current timeline for China’s lunar research station assumes they can do the job the way the ISS was built, in bits and pieces over many years using a sequence of single-launch missions.

      Musk is the first one putting real money into a project where he seems to have worked backwards from the goal to the components. To move big objects to the moon or Mars (and home from Mars), orbital refueling is necessary. Orbital refueling means the fuel has to be manageable and liquid methane is better for that than either NASA’s beloved liquid hydrogen or the Soviets’ plan for RP-1. Liquid methane means developing a new rocket engine.

      NASA is stuck doing the Orion/European Service Module/Space Launch System modest upgrade from Apollo. Same old single-launch mindset. I admit that I was quite surprised that the second system they chose for Artemis funding wasn’t a single-launch system, but SpaceX’s two-launch plan: one launch to put Starship in Earth orbit, and a second launch to bring it a full fuel load.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

        But that’s the thing. No one really cares if Musk burns money or lives chasing space dreams. But NASA?

        Let’s put it this way, the STS (the space shuttle system), over the course of 40 years, had a total cost of $200 B, and 14 lives.

        Since 2001, we have spent $6.4 T on military operations in the ME & SEA fighting the Taliban, ISIS, AQ, etc. With an estimated 7K deaths of US troops (and an estimated 800K other deaths that are a result of the fighting).Report

        • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          Exactly. And the irony here is every Defense Contractor benefitting from that lack of risk aversion to military campaigns also had – and some still have – space divisions that participated in the space race, such as it was.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          Of note is that, to date, Musk has not had an employee die while operating a SpaceX space craft.Report

          • JS in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            I’ll also note that Musk is working with, basically, an entire field pioneered by NASA, trained by NASA, often previously employed by NASA, and who got all the obvious problems sorted out by NASA before he got into the game.

            But unlike NASA, Musk doesn’t have to change budgets and design goals every 2 to 4 years whenever Congress gets a bug up his ass.

            Which i suspect is why people are willing to put up with Musk to do the work. It’s nice not having your space vehicle work tossed every 4 years, everyone fired, and then have NASA come back with a slightly DIFFERENT proposed launch vehicle a few years later and hope at least some people with a clue are still looking for work.

            Not because NASA wants that, but because Congress uses the NASA budget like it’s some sort of massive line item, instead of basically a rounding error.

            “‘Let’s show how committed we are by canceling a shuttle replacement for the fifth time, at a 10 year savings of exactly 2 F-35s. HOORAY FOR US FISCAL RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE. We’ll just tell NASA to make a new rocket in two years.”Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to JS says:

              I agree with everything except your first paragraph. NASA pioneered a lot, & I absolutely acknowledge the giant shoulders NASA has for the whole aerospace field.

              But the days of the majority of aerospace engineers having spent time at NASA or a company where NASA was the primary customer are done. That cohort have all retired, or are picking out the retirement community that best matches their golf shorts and socks with sandals.

              Out of my class of a couple of hundred aero-engineers, I know of maybe a dozen who went to NASA or worked on NASA adjacent projects. Aerospace has grown a lot from those early days, you are more likely to find an aerospace engineer whose background is at Boeing, or AirBus, etc. People who never worked at NASA, and hardly know anyone who has.

              Not discounting their impact, it’s just NASA doesn’t hire that much, as a percentage of the field.

              As for the rest, yep. It’s why I don’t think NASA should be in the business of designing space craft, they have a time horizon problem that is almost as bad as a Boeing (these days).Report

        • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          I think these things are being graded on vastly different metrics by the public. And in fairness I’m not sure that they shouldn’t be.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

            I sometimes wonder what would have happened if, in 1961, instead of starting the Apollo Program, JFK had just announced the equivalent of the X-Prize for a US company to do a moonshot?Report

            • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              I suspect it would depend on whether the math worked out on the ROI. Which I suppose could go both ways. Maybe we’d have gotten there faster. Maybe we’d have had the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts competing to see who could detonate more monkeys in the atmosphere while the Soviets chuckled into their vodka.Report

            • To be argumentative, I’ll take the side of “very little”. Consider SpaceX as an example. They would have gone belly-up pretty quickly except NASA bought launch services based on the design and paid for them up front. There’s a ton of commercial (and non-US governments) satellite customers now that didn’t exist in 1961, so SpaceX wouldn’t have had the non-NASA revenue stream back then either. Between 1961 and when SpaceX started, NASA poured a lot of money into rocket engine design (and experiments) and published it all. SpaceX didn’t have to make all of the mistakes on their own. There are few locations that are good launch sites in the US (coastal Florida for regular orbits, Vandenberg in California for polar orbits). SpaceX benefited from a whole lot of prior purchases, construction, and (most importantly in my mind) regulatory structure.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

                That is something a lot of folks forget about NASA, that they have giant shoulders that a lot of current players are standing on.

                But the fact that they have giant shoulders is not a reason to insist that all future big space endeavors are done by NASA. I’m all for continuing to fund NASA to do all sorts of aerospace research and what not, but I’m also OK with NASA never again sending a human into space.Report

              • You don’t have to convince me. I think NASA’s pet ULA is in deep doo-doo. Their whole Atlas V program now depends on Bezos delivering the BE-4 engine because statute requires them to give up Russian engines. Spaceliner depends on Boeing, a company whose management has from time to time said software doesn’t matter, getting the software right. SLS and Orion are doomed if SpaceX delivers Heavy Lifter and Starship.

                From my days running tech demos, everything screams that I want to be the person showing the dual Falcon Heavy booster landing video and asking the Congress critters, “Do you really want to spend tens of billions of dollars on someone else who hasn’t even launched?”Report

              • Spaceliner depends on Boeing

                I honestly do not understand why Boeing’s top management aren’t in prison, much less why its contracts haven’t all been cancelled.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Probably the same reason 2008 didn’t see a lot of financial managers heading to prison.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

                I’ve said before that one of Boeing’s major problems is that they refuse to accept the fact that they are, actually, a software company in part. And those parts have to behave like a software company, and not an aerospace company.

                But Boeing One Vision and all that corporate BS…Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Michael Cain says:

                a) another advantage that SpaceX had was that government oversight didn’t get up their asses when they had major issues. The Falcon 9 structure was completely redesigned between the first couple flights and the rest (like, “entirely new engine arrangement”, “most internal components relocated”) and they didn’t have to do any recertification or re-analysis. They exploded a payload during boost phase (and another one during ground test) (and then they blew up their crew-carrying vehicle during its ground testing) and they still got payloads and crews afterward.

                Like, “we’ll assume you know how to fix problems and we’ll just carry on” is a huge benefit for aerospace system providers! That has generally not been the attitude they face!

                b) the thing about launch sites is, technically you can launch from anywhere, it’s just that most places have people around them, and people don’t like having heavy rocket parts and burning toxic fuel falling on them.Report

  2. Michael Cain says:

    Fixed formatting error (<em> and </em> tags in second footnote were reversed).Report

  3. One of the coolest things I’ve ever seen in person was when they brought the space shuttle on top of the 747 into Little Rock AFB when I was stationed there. Some weather thing meant they couldnt get it to Florida so we got to see it up close and personal. Back then you were so used to seeing the shuttle launches on TV from a distance you didn’t realize how massive the orbiter was, almost as big as the 747 itself. Amazing experience. How many people can honestly say “The space shuttle landed at work today”?Report

  4. Anne says:

    One of my best memories from when I was 7ish was watching the launch of Skylab fir a roadside motel across the water from the launch pad. The rocket looked so small from where we were. But at lift off the ground shook and all the plate glass in the motel were seriously vibrating…it was awesome in the true sense of the word. The saw the space shuttle piggyback onto Tinker AFB when I was a sophomore in high school. I was less impressed by this event .. I was a stupid f-ing blase teenager. My dad however was practically giddyReport

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Anne says:

      My wife and I did the bus tour of Cape Canaveral in 1995. As one who grew up very excited by the space program, it was exciting as heck. There were kids on the bus who could not have cared less, and, really, who could blame them? The U.S. manned space program since the last moon mission has been, IMHO, less than unspectacular. The Shuttle would go up, float around for a few days, and come back. People go up to the ISS, float around for a few months, then come back. It barely even makes the news. Sure, going to the moon is expensive with no payback, but part of exploration is the romance of doing it.Report

  5. North says:

    I think this article is beautifully written and there’re very few flies on Douthat’s article which inspired it. That being said I’m going to be the curmudgeon and sing the contrary tune.

    As you briefly noted we didn’t return to the moon because, having visited it, we determined that trips to the moon are extremely expensive, extremely risky and have pretty marginal payoff economically and scientifically speaking. Launching stuff into space in general is very risky and expensive but with earth orbit at least there’s a pretty broad roster of things that are very economically useful to put up there and it is the closest zero g environment we have for science. So economically there’s not been and may still not be much reason to go up to the moon.

    The other reason to go to the moon, of course, was the Red scare and by the time the 80’s rolled around the Soviets weren’t looking anywhere near as scary as they had been before. By the end of that decade, obviously, the reds were gone and the race was over. If there’s no money to be made going to the moon, you can do your science in near earth orbit and there’s no longer anyone to race to the moon then trips to the moon become very hard to sell. Especially since, in the 80’s, Douthat’s dear leader Reagan and his charlatan compadres Nordquist and Laffer had ascended to dominance in politics and the era of big government was over. If you wanted to appeal to magnificence in the 80’s those weren’t the crowd to appeal it to.

    Finally, in closing, Douthat obliquely mourns that we’ve become more egalitarian and “decadent” a favorite word of his lately and he thinks that it wasn’t worth it in the long run to give up the moon in favor of more social sojourning here on terra firma. To put it mildly I dissent. I dissent that such a trade off was necessary to begin with. We could have chosen to return to the moon while also becoming a better and more egalitarian people (and I’ll say it, no offense Grandparents, I love you but we have become a better and more egalitarian people).

    Even setting that dissent aside and granting the implied tradeoff I still dissent. If we could trade our past decades of social progress for continuing to sojourn into space at the rate we had moved at in the 50’s that is not a trade that would ever be a good one to make. Indeed, I would personally quite literally fight, to the death frankly, to not have me and mine forced to live in the social world of the 50’s. To the death.

    But we live in a happier, richer and more developed world now and the moon remains. Magnificence doesn’t have an expiration date so I’m all for returning to Luna now. Maybe we could send up an LGBT astronaut with the mission too.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

      If we, as a nation, ponder what greatness we could achieve, why would we limit our bold vision to something like space travel?

      Why for example, couldn’t a bold and great nation create universal public broadband, or universal public housing, or universal higher education or even, shoot for the stars and create universal health care?

      The answer to why we can’t do these things lies in the fact that those sorts of suggestions are greeted with a curled lip of scorn and muttered derision.

      Now, the question becomes, why do people respond that way? Answer that, and you will answer why we haven’t gone to the moon again.Report

      • Jesse in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Yup, maybe this makess me decadent or part of the problem, but I find the destruction of endemic deep poverty among the elderly through Social Security, and various other great unviersal programs that actually made life better for millions of better as more proof of our greatness than managing to get three people on the Moon. Like, the NASA budget is so small I don’t mind it, and we could easily increase it by only spending eight bazillion instead of nine bazillion dollars on the miltiary.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        The Communist attempt at universal public housing failed really hard. No, really. Very limited stock with ten year waitlists and the sizes of the flats were two rooms. Not two bedrooms. Two rooms. Maybe three if you were really lucky. Universal public broadband seems more promising.Report

      • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        When it comes to the idea of public housing or public universal higher education I think a curled lip and muttered scorn is the mildest thing those ideas deserve.

        As to why? Governments record on public housing is absolutely abysmal and any zoning rules change that’d allow a public housing authority to build in high demand areas would produce better results for cheaper if we cut out the public housing part and just changed the zoning rules. And anyone who’s looked at the multilayered administratively bloated fiefdom abomination that is Universities and says “We should throw billions at them to create a new tier of high school” needs their head checked out.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

          OK, lets do social housing instead. The record on this is pretty good.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to North says:

          Public housing has ranged from pretty decent tot absolutely horrible. America failed pretty hard at it but other countries had good or mixed success. What seems to be necessary is building public housing on a human scale rather than as high-rise towers. High raise towers can work as private condos but not really public housing because of money and management issues. Human scale public housing like some of the United Kingdom’s older models or what they have in the Netherlands, Germany, and Vienna Austria doesn’t seem that bad.Report

      • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        I think there’s an ideological component of it but also a very practical cost/benefit component to it. On the ideological component I sympathize. Forty years of voodoo economics has been at best a wash, but at worst a disaster in terms of the political waste wrought by post-industrialization.

        For the practical component there needs to be a case made to the middle class tax payer as to why it is a win for them. Many of these programs can’t be financed by taxing the 1% and if we want middle class systems it will be the middle class that foots the bill. And frankly I think you could make a winning argument if the administrative state and institutions of higher education weren’t so hellbent on constantly embarrassing themselves to the public.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

          Without even arguing the point, your curled lip sneer at the administrative state and institutions of higher education is exactly the problem here.

          Even assuming they deserve this contempt, how can any society thrive without such institutions?

          If those institutions are broken, maybe the Big Project that will Make America Great Again is fixing those things.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            Even assuming they deserve this contempt, how can any society thrive without such institutions?

            It certainly cannot thrive with corrupt versions of them.

            Running with “don’t criticize them!” probably will only work but for so long.

            If those institutions are broken, maybe the Big Project that will Make America Great Again is fixing those things.

            You went for “broken” instead of “corrupt”.

            It’s possible to fix “broken”, I guess. Give them more money, maybe.Report

          • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            It’s not a sneer. It’s an expectation of quality public services that justify the higher taxes. And this is kind of what I don’t get. People in other countries (read, Europe) that have more robust public services pay for it at least in part because the quality is acceptable to them for the price.

            No normal person wants to pay for crap out of some sense that paying for crap is the right thing to do. Indeed I would say one of the biggest ideas out there that undermines the case for these things in the United States is the perception that, whatever our system’s problems, changing it would inevitably mean paying more for less.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

              And so, in conclusion…well, what exactly is your conclusion anyway?

              All these comments are sort of like the Israel/Palestine threads, where there is this tremendous effort put into justifying failure and explaining why nothing can be done.

              There isn’t any “Instead of Great Thing X, we should do Great Thing Y”

              There isn’t even “We need to fix Broken Thing n before we can do Great Thing Y”

              Instead it is just a vehement insisting that Nothing Can Be Done.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m not insisting nothing can be done. I said in my first response that I think a case can be made. I just think it involves being more creative (and persuasive!) than tossing a few more bucks from the federal budget into whatever it is we want to accomplish.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Your contributions to such things often feels like:

                Step 1: X is broken and needs to be fixed.

                Step 2: ???? (something something public will to change things something)

                Step 3: Joyous public service implemented!!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Couldn’t that be said about this entire essay?

                That there is something lacking in America, some sort of ennui or malaise that is preventing us from doing great things?

                And these comments seem to bear that out, that there isn’t some external force or technical problem blocking us, but that there is just something…broken in America.

                Our institutions are broken, it is said, or maybe corrupt.
                Others say that the case could be made for great things, but certainly not by anyone on this blog.

                I mean, your 3 step paraphrasing of my input is…exactly…JFK’s famous speech.

                Step 1: America fell behind the Soviets:

                Step 2: ???? (Something something public [and Congressional] will to change things something)

                Step 3: American Astronaut steps onto the moon!!

                There was no NASA, no Gene Krantz, no Apollo rocket, no space program until the American public was sufficiently energized and supportive of the idea of a Great American Project, such that Congress was willing to provide funding for it.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The problem is you don’t seem to have any better ideas regarding how to rally up the necessary public will than anyone else does.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                So you’re agreeing that America is in the grip of a malaise that blocks us from coming together and undertaking a Great Project.

                And this indicates a problem with…Chip?

                Imagining a textbook in 2121:
                “In the early 21st century, the American empire went into a deep malaise, a crippling collapse of its political, educational, religious, and civic institutions.

                Historians disagree what led to it, but most pinpoint a Mr. Chip Daniels of Los Angeles, who refused to step up and rouse the nation out of its torpor.”Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Fair point. Criticism withdrawn.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                10-yrs I’ve been coming to this site trying to inspire Chip out of his torpor to lead us to our distributist future, only to have victory snatched away at the last moment.Report

      • Many, many, Americans are closet mechanical engineers. Witness the ongoing popularity of cable shows in the mold of Junkyard Wars, or auto racing. The space program is a custom fit to that: big complex machines that go fast (with a side order of “Maybe they’ll blow up!”).

        I occasionally assert that Elon Musk took his software money and started mechanical engineering projects: electric cars that go fast, his own space program, tunnel boring machines. All good choices if he wants to capture Americans’ interest. And from your list of things, there’s a good chance that within a few years, Musk will be delivering rural broadband to far more people than any of the previous federal and state projects that ran through tens of billions of dollars.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Michael Cain says:

          You forgot: FLAMETHROWERS.

          Interesting point about Musk… but I’m not sure how that translates? Are we thinking a passive reality show that mechanically inclined Americans would watch to subsidize the making of the Moon shot? Plausible.

          Or are we thinking bigger about crowdsourcing the Moon Shot! Become a legend and a b/millionaire if you can solve the radiation exposure problem with common household goods other than duct tape.Report

      • Ozzzy! in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Perhaps the vast vast vast majority of people do not want ‘universal public broadband’ run by the government. Have you seen what private industry does with our data?!?

        Find me, hell, 5% of the population that WANT to live in ‘Universal Public Housing’, whatever the hell that means, and maybe you have something the public could get behind.

        I’d probably take universal health care though i would absolutely be sneering throughout my signup process.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Ozzzy! says:

          One of the strongest criticisms I had of 1970s vintage liberalism was that it was just an endless whinefest of how bad things were, in contrast to the sunny optimism of Reagan.

          The strongest criticisms I have of contemporary conservatism is that it is an endless whinefest about how bad things are, in contrast to the sunny optimism of Joe Biden.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to North says:

      There were more than a few people who protested the space race as wasted money that could be better spent on earth problems like poverty. Even at the height of the space race, more than a few people across the political spectrum saw it as a useless extravagance.Report

  6. DensityDuck says:

    “become more risk-averse”

    there is this particular sort of RETVRN dork who just loves the idea of men dying bravely in the service of a cause

    as though we could have paved the way to the Moon on a road of corpses, as though going there was a question of sheer Effort and Will and GumptionReport