A Semi-Short Explainer of Presidential Immunity Decision
I’m going to try to explain SCOTUS’ Trump immunity decision, objectively, for your informational purposes. I am going to try to do so without opinion, passion, snark, or derision. Anyone familiar with me can probably guess where my estimation of this decision falls, but in the name of an informed electorate, I will try to stick to factual explanation.
I’ll summarize the background briefly, as I can’t imagine readers of this blog not already being well-informed of such.
Former President Trump was indicted for allegedly attempting to overthrow the results of the 2020 election in which he lost to President Biden. The indictment alleged that in order to do so, Trump 1) tried by means of “knowingly false claims of election fraud” to get state officials to change their electoral vote counts; 2) facilitated the creation and submission of fraudulent slates of electors from seven states; 3) tried to make the Justice Department send letters to targeted states alleging that the DoJ had found “significant concerns” with the election in those states; 4) tried to get then-VP Mike Pence to use his role in the election certification process to fraudulently alter election results; and 5) egged on the angry protestors attacking the Capitol on January 6th by “redoubling efforts to levy false claims of election fraud”. These allegations were the basis of four counts: conspiracy to defraud the United States in violation of 18 U. S. C. §371; 2) conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding in violation of §1512(k); 3) obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding in violation of §1512(c)(2)1; and 4) conspiracy against rights in violation of §241.
Trump filed a motion to dismiss in the District Court, arguing that all of the actions underlying these charges were performed in his official capacity as president, and that he should thus be immune from criminal prosecution. The Court denied the motion, holding that “former Presidents do not possess absolute federal criminal immunity for any acts committed while in office”, but did not address whether or not the acts alleged were “official acts”, as Trump had argued. On appeal, the DC Circuit affirmed the lower court, reasoning in part that because Trump’s alleged conduct violated “generally applicable criminal laws,” these actions “were not properly within the scope of lawful actions.” In other words, the appeals Court said that committing a crime cannot be considered acting within one’s official duties.
Thus the question came to the Supreme Court of the United States: Does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office, and if so, to what extent?
Short answer, from a 6-3 SCOTUS: Yes, a former President does enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office. Obviously, the questions that follow are how much immunity, and what constitutes an official act?
Chief Justice Roberts wrote the opinion, from which Justices Kagan, Sotomayor, and Jackson dissented. After acknowledging the unprecedented nature of this case – this is the first ever criminal prosecution of a former President for actions taken during the Presidency – Roberts vows that the Court will “focus on the ‘enduring consequences upon the balanced power structure of our Republic'” (quoting Youngstown Sheet and Tube Co v. Sawyer.2
The Court explains that a President’s authority is derived either from Congress or from the US Constitution. When a president’s action is performed pursuant to constitutional authority, neither Congress nor the courts may constrain except to determine whether the act is in fact within the claimed constitutional authority. In Youngstown, Truman claimed his order to seize steel mills in order to circumvent a strike was within his power as Commander in Chief of the Military. The Court struck down the EO, holding that interfering in a labor dispute was not within that authority and was an act of “individual will”. But unless a Court can make such a determination – that there is no Constitutional or congressional authority for a given presidential action – Roberts writes, “[the President’s} discretion in exercising such authority cannot be subject to further judicial examination.”
Roberts offers examples of other such “conclusive and preclusive” powers of the President with which Congress and the courts may not interfere, such as determinations of recognition of foreign countries and pardoning power, as well as the power to remove presidential appointees, derived from Article II (this italicized part will be important shortly.) Thus, Roberts writes, “the President is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution for conduct within his exclusive sphere of constitutional authority.” (Italics mine.)
Moving on, Roberts discusses the intentions of the Framers in placing the power of the executive branch in the hands of a single individual, as opposed to the hands of many, as with the judicial and legislative branches:
The Framers accordingly vested the President with “supervisory and policy responsibilities of utmost discretion and sensitivity.” Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 750. He must make “the most sensitive and far-reaching decisions entrusted to any official under our constitutional system.” Id., at 752. There accordingly “exists the greatest public interest” in providing the President with “‘the maximum ability to deal fearlessly and impartially with’ the duties of his office.” Appreciating the “unique risks to the effective functioning of government” that arise when the President’s energies are diverted by proceedings that might render him “unduly cautious in the discharge of his official duties,” we have recognized Presidential immunities and privileges “rooted in the constitutional tradition of the separation of powers and supported by our history.”
Citations omitted.
The Court took up Presidential immunity in 1974 in Nixon v. Fitzgerald, which I summarized here a few years ago. Fitzgerald provided former presidents with absolute immunity in cases involving civil matters and damages for liability. Roberts notes, however, that the Court has several times rejected claims of presidential immunity when it comes to subpoenas. But he adds that there are certain exceptions for “executive privilege”, which protects a president’s communications. These privileges and immunities are necessary, according to the majority opinion here, to ensure the president is free to make difficult decisions and receive candid advice from his advisors without fear of lawsuits and other such negative consequences.
The Roberts Court extends this reasoning to the need to shield a president from criminal charges, which can have much more dire consequences than monetary judgments:
Potential criminal liability, and the peculiar public opprobrium that attaches to criminal proceedings, are plainly more likely to distort Presidential decisionmaking than the potential payment of civil damages.
Roberts concedes that there is a competing interest in righting wrongs against the public, writing bluntly that the President is not above the law.
In light of these considerations and principles, the Court comes to the conclusion that there is “at least a presumptive immunity from criminal prosecution for a President’s acts within the outer perimeter of his official responsibility.” (Italics mine.)
A quick explanation about “presumptive immunity”: whenever anything is “presumptive” in the law, it means it is assumed correct and the burden will be on the other side to rebut it and persuade the finder of fact otherwise. For instance, Trump is presumptively innocent of the charges in this indictment, as is any defendant who has not charged but not convicted. That presumption can be overcome by evidence. To rebut the presumptive immunity advanced by this case, the prosecution must show that “applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no ‘dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.'” The Court here does not endeavor to determine whether that showing has been made.
The majority states that any such immunity applies only to “official acts”, but notes that no effort has yet been made to distinguish which, if any, of the indicted conduct is properly considered “unofficial”. Though the parties have not briefed this question and it is not the question currently before the Court, Roberts nevertheless sets out to provide “guidance” to help the lower court make this determination on remand.
At the outset, Roberts writes that Trump’s attempts to pressure the DOJ and the attorney general to investigate election fraud, and threatening to fire the latter, is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution because of the president’s “conclusive and preclusive” constitutional authority to remove appointees. And because it is the constitutional duty of the executive to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, directing the Department of Justice is an official act regardless of the impetus for the action.
The indictment’s allegations that the requested investigations were “sham[s]” or proposed for an improper purpose do not divest the President of exclusive authority over the investigative and prosecutorial functions of the Justice Department and its officials. And the President cannot be prosecuted for conduct within his exclusive constitutional authority. Trump is therefore absolutely immune from prosecution for the alleged conduct involving his discussions with Justice Department officials. (Emphasis added; citation to record omitted.)
Moving on to Trump’s attempt to get VP Pence to stop the certification, the Court points to the close working relationship of the president and vice-president, and the VP’s constitutional duties, and determines that conversations between the two are likewise official action; the Court finds “at least” presumptive immunity for this conduct. In discussing whether or not the presumption is rebuttable, the Court is on the fence and leaves it to the lower court to determine, conceding that Pence would be acting in his capacity as Senate President in his role at certification, not as part of the executive, but also positing that a VP casting a tie breaking vote in other matters in that same capacity could be doing so to further the executive’s agenda. Thus, “[a]pplying a criminal prohibition to the President’s conversations discussing such matters with the Vice President—even though they concern his role as President of the Senate—may well hinder the President’s ability to perform his constitutional functions.”
As to whether the allegations regarding the calls to state officials and the attempted creation and submission of false slates of electors fall under official or unofficial action, the Court is likewise unwilling to decide, remanding for additional briefing and fact finding and determination by the lower court. While the Court concedes that the appointment of electors and offers the executive no part in the process, it still opines “the President may speak on and discuss such matters with state officials—even when no specific federal responsibility requires his communication—to encourage them to act in a manner that promotes the President’s view of the public good.”
The Court turns lastly to Trump’s public speech to the Capitol rioters, including tweets leading up to January 6th in which he encouraged them to travel to DC, and his statements to the crowd that day. The Court first opines that speaking to the public is a significant part of the presidency: “Indeed, a long-recognized aspect of Presidential power is using the office’s “bully pulpit” to persuade Americans, including by speaking forcefully or critically, in ways that the President believes would advance the public interest… For these reasons, most of a President’s public communications are likely to fall comfortably within the outer perimeter of his official responsibilities.”
But the Court notes there may be exceptions, instances in which he speaks not as president but as, say, a candidate. Determining the official or unofficial nature of such comments will require “objective analysis of ‘content, form, and context'”. Roberts says the indictment includes “only select Tweets and brief snippets of the speech” and lacks context, which will be important in making the determination of official versus unofficial acts. “Knowing, for instance, what else was said contemporaneous to the excerpted communications, or who was involved in transmitting the electronic communications and in organizing the rally, could be relevant to the classification of each communication.”
The majority opinion goes further, holding that any act for which immunity is found may not be used as evidence in a trial on acts for which he is not immune, as doing so would negate the point of immunity by hampering a president’s decision making, if he knows it might be used against him in court someday.
Further, and for the same reasons, Roberts writes that motive may not be considered when determining whether an act is official or not. This holding is consistent with Fitzgerald. As I wrote in 2019:
The Court opined that, because Fitzgerald’s firing was part of an otherwise legal departmental reorganization, an inquiry into his subjective motivations is improper and would lead to every official, lawful act being thoroughly examined for “forbidden purpose”, an unworkable and inefficient result that would “deprive absolute immunity of its intended effect.” In other words, if the action is a lawful exercise of the President’s power “but for” his improper motivations, then he is immune. This standard of “objective reasonableness”, was a rejection of the prior immunity test, which required a showing of “good faith” in the lawfulness of one’s actions in order to enjoy immunity.
The rest of the opinion defends itself from the dissents, and since I am aiming for a short explainer, I’ll leave it at that and briefly summarize the concurrences and dissents, the latter of which he says “strike a tone of chilling doom.”
Justice Thomas concurs, but writes separately to offer his opinion that the appointment of Special Counsel was itself illegal, because no such office has been established by law.
Justice Barrett concurs with most of the ruling, but not all. She dislikes framing the issues as “immunity” and would frame it more properly as a determination of whether or not the criminal law involved is applicable to an official act and, if so, whether prosecution of that act would impose a “‘dange[r] of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.'” Even so, she finds the majority consistent with that view.
What she does not agree with, however, is the Court’s holding that conduct for which a former president is immune cannot be used as evidence in a trial of acts for which there is no immunity.
The Constitution does not require blinding juries to the circumstances surrounding conduct for which Presidents can be held liable. Consider a bribery prosecution—a charge not at issue here but one that provides a useful example. The federal bribery statute forbids any public official to seek or accept a thing of value “for or because of any official act.” The Constitution, of course, does not authorize a President to seek or accept bribes, so the Government may prosecute him if he does so. Yet excluding from trial any mention of the official act connected to the bribe would hamstring the prosecution. To make sense of charges alleging a quid pro quo, the jury must be allowed to hear about both the quid and the quo, even if the quo, standing alone, could not be a basis for the President’s criminal liability.
Barrett opines that the rules of evidence are sufficient to protect a defendant ex-president from undue prejudice by the jury.
The dissent penned by Justice Sotomayor and joined by Kagan and Jackson calls the majority opinion “a mockery of the principle, foundational to our Constitution and system of Government, that no man is above the law.” She accuses the majority of inventing an “atextual, ahistorical, and unjustifiable immunity.” In her view, the ruling broadly covers nearly any act of the President, so long as it can be couched within the realm of his official duties:
Whether described as presumptive or absolute, under the majority’s rule, a President’s use of any official power for any purpose, even the most corrupt, is immune from prosecution. That is just as bad as it sounds, and it is baseless.
Justice Jackson dissents separately, expressing her dismay at what she sees as a redistribution of power among the three branches which leaves congress disproportionately weak compared to the executive and the courts. She then sets out her concerns for how the majority’s ruling will work in practice. In a footnote, she presents the following:
To fully appreciate the oddity of making the criminal immunity determination turn on the character of the President’s responsibilities, consider what the majority says is one of the President’s “conclusive and preclusive” prerogatives: “ ‘[t]he President’s power to remove . . . those who wield executive power on his behalf.’ ” While the President may have the authority to decide to remove the Attorney General, for example, the question here is whether the President has the option to remove the Attorney General by, say, poisoning him to death. Put another way, the issue here is not whether the President has exclusive removal power, but whether a generally applicable criminal law prohibiting murder can restrict how the President exercises that authority.
I’ve given the dissents short shrift here, because I’m pushing the limits of “short explainer” and the important part is the actual effects of the Court’s ruling, not the rulings the minority would have issued. But they are well worth reading.
- §1512(c)(2) is the same obstruction charge the Court just last week restricted from use against hundreds of January 6th rioters in Fischer v United States.
- Youngstown was a 1952 case concerning an Executive Order issued by President Truman, directing government seizure of all steel mills in the United States in order to prevent a labor strike. Per the Court, the President had no such authority, either by statute or by his role as “Commander in Chief” of the military”
This also probably tears down the classified documents case.
Elections have consequences, and this is the consequence of 40+ years of hard driving politics by the GOP; politics which included packing the federal judiciary with people aligned to their cause.Report
“This also probably tears down the classified documents case.”
Why? Even though it’s within a President’s remit to administratively declassify intelligence documents, there’s still a procedure for that, you can’t just do it without telling anyone else. And if Trump issued an Executive Order saying “yeah I can”, he certainly didn’t make that known to anyone.Report
He was no longer president when he took them, as far as I recall? I could be wrong. If he wasn’t, then it was not an official act.Report
They were packed in the WH before his departure. Handling classified documents is a Presidential duty. And lets be real, Cannon is trying everything she can not to bring him to trial.Report
Cannon is the problem with that case, not the Supremes.Report
…So far. Give it time and the Six Mandarins will provide such cover as Judge Cannon’s dilatory case management does not, in the event that Trump is not re-elected and orders the prosecution of the case against himself ended.
Which, as we now know, would be an official act of the core powers of his office, beyond the ability of Congress or the Courts to gainsay.
IIRC Trump took them when he was still President, and retained them after his term expired under… some sort of claim that they were his personal papers? Unclear what the claim is as that sort of shifted along with how many of them there were.Report
He might be able to wriggle out of the jam by claiming that they were “personal memoirs”, but if they were still marked as classified then it was illegal for him to show them to anyone.Report
He hid from the National Archives, left them sitting out and shared them with uncleared people, in tape, after he was President.Report
Oh I know – but the immunity decision as written opens many, many cans of worms that will require significant litigation to resolve. SCOTUS has done itself no favors in workload reduction if that was their objective.Report
“Roberts writes that Trump’s attempts to pressure the DOJ and the attorney general to investigate election fraud, and threatening to fire the latter, is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution because of the president’s “conclusive and preclusive” constitutional authority to remove appointees.”
Which is exactly how I expected this whole thing was gonna go. It’ll be found, through extensive testimony and analysis, that Trump did not actually say any illegal words, or actually order anyone to do an illegal thing. “Suggesting” that a recount could “maybe” find a different result isn’t illegal, nor is angrily threatening to fire someone who doesn’t do his job (said job being “recount the votes if the President tells you to”.) “Well we all knew what he REALLY meant” yeah sure but criminal court doesn’t work that way, you don’t get to convict people based on What We All Knew He Really Meant, there is an extensive literature both legal and popular about why that’s a bad thing to do.Report
Except that’s how mafia cases work.
And calling a secretary of state and asking him to “find” 11,000 more votes isn’t asking about investigating fraud. Its asking to create fraud.Report
They didn’t prosecute mafia guys for saying they were gonna make someone an offer he couldn’t refuse, they prosecuted them for actually doing it.Report
You gotta stop taking legal advice from Sideshow Bob.Report
“said job being “recount the votes if the President tells you to”.
Is that actually someone’s job? Serious question.
When I read Em’s summary of the five allegations against Trump, several of them strike me as clearly not the province — official or otherwise — of the President.
We’re constantly told that the Electoral College and several other aspects of our vote for President — including the myriad laws and voting procedures in each state — are because of federalism, specifically that while the election is ultimately intended to decide on a President, in reality each state is tasked with choosing a slate of electors who will then go to the Electoral College and that is where a President will be chosing.
Does the President have any official role in individual state’s handling of their elector’s selection? It feels like everything I — an admitted layman on all these matters — have ever been told is that, no, those decisions and processes are left up to the states. So any involvement by Trump would have been outside his official role as President.
Do I have any of that wrong?
Now… if he didn’t actually engage in acts but merely words… “Sure would be nice if THOSE folks over there were your electors and not THESE folks over here…” then maybe he didn’t actually engage in a criminal act. But by what Constitutional authority does the President have a role in states choosing their electors?Report
“We’re constantly told that the Electoral College and several other aspects of our vote for President — including the myriad laws and voting procedures in each state — are because of federalism”
Yes honey, we know, you’re still mad that she won the popular vote in 2016 but didn’t get to be President, I think it’s time you took a deep breath and settled yourself about that.
“Does the President have any official role in individual state’s handling of their elector’s selection? ”
Maybe? Probably not. Is it illegal for him to ask about it? Not “well it’s improper,” not “well he clearly had an agenda“, not “it’s awful threatening“, not “it’s beyond his authority“. Is it felony-crime ILLEGAL? Because if you want a felony conviction, that’s what you need to have.Report
Reads like a solicitation to commit election fraud from out here in the cheap seats, which is indeed illegal.Report
Brother, I recognize that you have a story you very much want to be true, but if you want to secure a criminal conviction you need more than someone saying that he wants to do something. You need Trump actually saying “change the vote totals”.Report
No. Not for solicitation.Report
You clearly watch too much crime drama TV. Telling the Secretary of State of Georgia to find 11,000 is a criminal action because it’s soliciting the secretary of state to break the law because finding that many votes means inventing that many votes.
I know YOU want it to be true that all the pols are ll equally bad, but that’s just not so.Report
“Telling the Secretary of State of Georgia to find 11,000 is a criminal action because it’s soliciting the secretary of state to break the law”
He didn’t say to do it. He didn’t say those words. He did not. You keep insisting that “sort of like” is the same as “did”, and it’s not true.
This case is not the one that will get Donald Trump. You need to stop making up comforting fantasies where it does.Report
You keep saying that. Repetition doesn’t make it true.Report
Can you provide a case where the entirety of the criminal act was saying “hey, could you maybe do something about this”?
Or is this another one of those deals where you have time to comment but somehow no time to back it up and we should Just Trust You That You’re Right?Report
Huh?
Why are you talking about Hillary? I’m not talking about Hillary.
Why do the polls in THIS state stay open until 8 and in THAT state stay open until 10? Federalism. Each state conducts its own election to identify electors.
Why does this state require photo ID and that state doesn’t? Federalism. Each state conducts its own election to identify electors.
Why can ex-felons vote in this state but not that state? Federalism. Each state conducts its own election to identify electors.
So… is that all true? It seems to me it is.
And if all that is true, it would seem to me that the individual state elections have zero to do with the sitting President or any other federal official. Is that true? Or is there some OFFICIAL role POTUS has in Georgia or Nevada or New York’s process of choosing electors? That’s what I’m asking.
If the answer is… POTUS has no official rule, then we look at his actions and determine if they were criminal.
If the answer is… POTUS does have an official role, then I guess he can just go ham, baby.
But… if YOU wanna talk about Hillary, I won’t stop ya.Report
Who actually answer your question, no, the president has literally no official role in any part of the presidential election whatsoever. Zero role.
Not just of him, but of the entire executive… Hell, thanks to the conservative lawsuits, the DOJ doesn’t even have a place to decide where voting regulations are allowable or not preemptively.
The vice president has a purely ceremonial role as president of the sentence but that’s explicitly not an executive branch function.
Of course, the Court trying to excuse every aspect of Trump’s behavior will assert that it is part of his job to communicate with the executive of various states, just like they decided it was part of his job to communicate with various department heads, and nothing he did as in those communications can be construed as illegal or used as evidence of a crime.Report
That was typed with speech to text, and it showed. 🙂Report
Em, I’ve been too busy to do a deep dive into the decision, but after a quick review I asked myself where in the Constitution the majority found a basis for their free-wheeling policy argument. I notice you didn’t cite them citing anything. Did you not see anything either?Report
A more principled scotus wouldn’t have taken this case. This reads almost like an advisory opinion on a matter not yet ripe for review. Of the majority at least Barrett sort of edges around the factual realities of the case. But now we have this bizarre precedent that seems to suggest a president can attempt to thwart a constitutional process as long as they don’t actually succeed in doing it and can dress it up as some sort of act that could hypothetically be in the scope of their official actions. And I guess if at some point one does succeed in doing it we won’t have to worry about any of this constitutional mumbo jumbo anymore anyway.Report
A more principled scotus wouldn’t have decided the 2000 election, either. At least in those days when they made a purely partisan decision they were embarrassed about it.Report
Rehnquist was trying to prove he was a more consequential Chief Justice then Berger. Roberts wants to be more consequential then both of them combined.Report
There is absolutely nothing in that decision that requires the thwarting of the constitutional process to fail.
Which means what Trump did would have been legal even if the coup did succeed.Report
No, CJ Roberts is right on this one. Jack Smith is trying to prosecute Trump regarding conduct for which Trump is presumptively immune from prosecution. In order to defeat Trump’s presumptive immunity, Jack Smith (or some other prosecutor) has to win a finding that the conduct at issue is not part of Trump’s exercise of the office.
Jack Smith has not won any such finding, or even made an attempt to that end.
There’s no way Trump can be prosecuted until that happens, and there’s nothing more that needs to happen before the Supreme Court issues a timely opinion.Report
Yes I understand what they said. The problem is that they said it without letting the facts be determined by the trial court and now we have a precedent that reads like the federalist society playing ‘what ifs’ over bong hits in a dorm room. What if Trump didn’t do the things he seems to have been doing? After all the president has to talk to a lot of people and he can’t be in trouble just for that!Report
We have Nixon v. Fitzgerald to blame for this. The idea that officeholders should be free of the worry that their decisions may have adverse consequences down the road is one that is antithetical to the ideals of a free people. Public servants should absolutely be concerned their actions might land them in court, and possibly prison. We have set someone in this country above the law.Report
Like so many other things in the last 5-6 years, this is really just a certain set of people finally saying the quiet parts outloud.Report
“The idea that officeholders should be free of the worry that their decisions may have adverse consequences down the road is one that is antithetical to the ideals of a free people.”
Does this mean we can prosecute Bill Clinton for Operation Infinite Reach?Report
Yes, please proceed.Report
ooh, or we could go after Obama for ordering the IRS to audit conservative political organizations more stringently and at a higher rate than liberal political organizations.Report
Absolutely! Please, by all means, do this.Report
You’d be VERY hard pressed to do so.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/10/debunked-irs-scandal-shows-theres-no-sane-wing-of-the-gop.htmlReport
Nonononono! Don’t try to discourage this! We want them to actually taking their claims to a court, where direct lies tend to get you thrown in jail.
This is what killed all the election lies nonsense. They actually had to show up in court, and literally nothing they said was true, and they weren’t even willing to repeat it in court
We want conservatives to start doing this for everything!!! Please, walk into a court with your evidence, show a judge under penalty of perjury! We are standing right there ready to arrest Obama!Report
Please, by all means, drag that one into court, where people will be required to state, on the record, the things that actually happened there, instead of the stuff that conservatives made up.
For example, that this involved Obama in any manner. Or was anything other than the IRS creating some really stupid group of guidelines that didn’t deliberately targeted either side, in an attempt to find political groups.
In fact, instead of a bunch of nonsense gibberish showboating in public by biased lunatics lying, AKA Congressional hearings, can we please start having actual trials where you can’t lie to the judge? It would be a really welcome relief.
Trials are, after all, how the nonsensical election claims died.Report
*shrug* it’s got as much actual evidence as “Trump issued illegal orders to change the vote” did.Report
You mean the phone call to the Georgia Secretary of State that was fully recorded? Those were not ‘orders’, even Trump seems aware that he is not able to give orders to state governors, they were just asking someone to commit election fraud, a thing which itself is actually a crime in Georgia.
Or do you mean the orders given to the Department of Justice to lie about voter fraud and ask them to put pressure on Congress to not certify results using those lies? Because those were orders, but they were not orders to change a vote, they were orders to get the government to lie about the vote that that already happened.
It’s almost like you don’t know any actual details about this. Like you’ve conflated a bunch of different crimes that Trump has committed.Report
When a hooker is prosecuted for solicitation it’s no defense that the prospective client didn’t go for it. And it’s no defense that the hooker merely asked, rather than ordered, the prospective client to pay her for sex.Report
Honestly, we should just toss all ex-presidents in the clink for a few years after they leave office. You know they probably did something against the law.
We should take a page from South Korea, which doesn’t seem to have any compunction about prosecuting former presidents. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/17/south-korea-president-prosecutions-qa-00152630Report
I have always thought it would be a good idea to have everyone do a year in minimum security federal prison for the crime of being elected president after their term is up.Report
It’s notable that the Roman Republic, which fell because it didn’t restrain its executive enough, understood that post-office prosecution was an important accountability mechanism for former officials.Report
Notable that the collapse of the Republic is generally thought to have reached a decisive point of no return when one politician used force to illegally hang on to power after his term of office expired while he feared prosecution for flagrant abuses of power for personal gain committed while in office. And that the Republic was purportedly “restored” for public consumption but not as a political reality, and the political reality of belying that “restoration” was not particularly well concealed.
The parallels aren’t exact, of course. But damn, history rhymes.Report
Yeah yeah.
In order to maintain the capacity in any context to act as a nation with one clear intent, the United States (or any other country really) must have an executive with the responsibility to define and implement that intention.
And for the same reason that executive (in our case, the President) must have the the freedom to act according to his own judgment when acting in his official capacity. That’s why, at least some of the time, he is immune from prosecution. That’s what we found out on Monday.
But, in the context of your comment, it doesn’t have to be that way. We don’t have to be a nation-state, we don’t have to act with one intent, we can be just a hodgepodge of people who live here. But whatever can be said in favor of that, it is not the design of the United States laid out in the Constitution.
It’s also worth mentioning for those who care, that the libs are or ought be invested in the unity of the United States at least as much as we are (maybe more). Certainly most libs favor the unity of the federal government in terms of creating and maintaining things like Medicare or the EPA.
Just because this decision benefits Trump doesn’t at all mean it’s the wrong decision.Report
This does not address the need for an executive to be free of consequences. The president is surrounded by dozens of advisors, some of whom are well-versed in the law. Is the president of the United States really making any snap decisions that require immunity from consequences?
(I was just as outraged when Obama droned an American citizen, for the record.)Report
The court basically said that he is immune from prosecution at all times, because they include ‘literally any orders to his department heads’ as, itself, part of his official duties as president.
That is literally the way the president does absolutely everything, there is nothing else that he accomplishes in any manner that isn’t that. The only thing that that actually excludes is if the president personally pulls a gun on someone and shoots… It doesn’t even exclude if he orders the secret service to shoot someone.
This is well above any immunity given to any other official in any other capacity.Report
Oh, and it’s not just that the communications are part of his official duties and can’t be prosecuted.
They can’t even be used as evidence of a crime that the president himself is personally committing. Which is well past any actual logic of ‘the president has to be able to act freely’… He has to be able to give orders freely without concern that they will be used to implicate him in actual crimes he has been charged with? What?
So he may not be allowed to pull out a gun and shoot someone directly, but if he _does_ do that, he can order the courts to tell him where the witnesses are, show up and shoot the witnesses, and those orders cannot be used as evidence of murder and witness tampering.Report
I haven’t read much about the opinion, but it looks like you’re the only one making that claim about its scope.Report
No, I think you might be overlooking the part about the difference between absolute immunity and presumptive immunity.
Trump talking to department heads is presumptively immune from prosecution. There is, at least according to Trump v US, the possibility that the presumption can be overcome.Report
TL/DR: The Supreme Court laid out the ground work for a dictatorship.Report
Thanks for the Explanation Em. From my perspective, The Appeals Court was clearly correct – a government official’s power is defined by the law – be it common, statutory or constitution. Therefore an illegal act cannot be an official act. If Trump wants to claim that holding him accountable represents an as-applied constitutional violation, let him try that argument on appeal.Report
No no. This is exactly where CJ Roberts sez, “Pay attention lib, you might just learn something.”
In the text of the Constitution and design of our governance emanating from it, the President has specific roles and responsibilities that other people don’t have. Eg he is supposed to faithfully execute the laws, issue letters of marque and reprisal, establish post offices, whatever.
In fact, letters of marque and reprisal is a great example. Issuing one is almost certainly a crime if done by anybody other than the President. Therefore, for the President to be the President, anybody who purports to prosecute the (former) President for crimes supposedly unrelated to the legitimate exercise of his office, must show, a priori that the conduct at issue is not an official act of his office.
Jack Smith has shown no such thing.Report
No, that’s insane.
If the President has the explicit constitutional power to do a thing, then it can’t be a crime per se to do it. The idea that the President has to me made immune to prosecution to exercise the standard powers of office is an argument so idiotic I can’t credit anyone actually believes it.
Here’s an example of why this is a problem. Let’s stick with Letters of Marque sicne you brought it up. What if a President accepted a bribe to give a letter of Marque to someone? That would be a crime, right? Last I checked bribery was illegal. But under this ruling the President would be able to argue that issue Letters of Marque was an official power an therefore they can’t ever be prosecuted for it. And if the prosecution wanted to try argue otherwise, they wouldn’t be allowed to enter the issuing of the Letter of Marque into evidence, making it almost impossible to prove there was a quid pro quo.
Legal powers can be used in illegal ways, in fact that’s the entire risk represented by abuse of office. And the Supreme Court has rendered such prosecutions nearly impossible. And to be frank, if it were a Democrat violating the law I very much doubt you’d have trouble seeing that.Report
“What if a President accepted a bribe to give a letter of Marque to someone? That would be a crime, right? Last I checked bribery was illegal. But under this ruling the President would be able to argue that issue Letters of Marque was an official power an therefore they can’t ever be prosecuted for it.”
He couldn’t be prosecuted for issuing the Letter of Marque, but he could be prosecuted for taking a bribe, and the court case would not be permitted to consider “a Letter of Marque was issued” as evidence of criminality. (as in, “a Letter of Marque was issued, which is an extremely uncommon thing to do, therefore something criminal must have happened” would not be a permissible argument.)
Like, the important thing is that the President took a bribe, and “taking a bribe to let someone get a photo op in the Oval Office” is considered exactly as much of a crime as “taking a bribe to broker a deal to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia”.Report
Certainly more difficult than Demos want in Trump’s case. though maybe not impossible. The point being that a hypothetical (or concrete) prosecution is not the holy of holies. There are other priorities, higher ones in this case, for what seems to me to be obvious reasons.
That’s right, I wouldn’t and I don’t. President Biden should obey the law, especially as it pertains to collecting payments for student loans and enforcing our immigration, border security and visa policies.
The law, and the Constitution ought to be a constraint on all actors of our system. And to a large extent they were for most of our history. Lib has created a world where it’s okay if you can get away with it, especially as it pertains to Demo Presidents evading, circumventing or defying Congress.
The idea of criminally prosecuting the presumably former President, while it’s always been at least theoretically possible, was never intended to be the main guardrail for us anyway.Report
Under the Constitution, Congress alone has the power to issue a letter of marque.Report
Jack Smith has not been allowed to go to trial and present evidence yet. He did successfully obtain a lawful indictment – two actually. So the longer it takes to get to court the less and less your argument holds.Report
“anybody who purports to prosecute the (former) President for crimes supposedly unrelated to the legitimate exercise of his office, must show, a priori that the conduct at issue is not an official act of his office.”
Which is the whole point of this, really; it’s to give Trump another six months to fart around in court, assuming that he’s going to win the election and then on January 21 2025 pardon himself for everything.Report
Finally, since I don’t think anybody else has mentioned it, and unanticipated by me at least, that one plausible outcome of Trump v US is that the Bragg NY guilty verdict will be thrown out.
In fact, the judge in the case has already pushed back the sentencing date based on the propensity of the judicial system to overturn the guilty verdict before sentencing happens.
Part of the majority decision in Trump was that (former) Presidents are immune from prosecution for their official acts, _and_ furthermore official acts of the President can’t be entered as evidence against him in _any_ criminal case. Well, the Bragg team did just that. And in a letter from Trumps lawyers to the judge, Trump’s lawyer serendipitously cites an assertion from the prosecution team that the now-tainted “evidence” was “devastating” to Mr Trump’s defense (LOL!! libs!).
Well, what happens now? In any other case, the prosecution could hope to save the day based on an argument of harmless error in appeals court. And that is still a thing here.
But in addition, there’s another wrinkle which I haven’t heard anybody else mention. The theory of harmless error is about the right of a defendant to receive a fair trial. But the framework of Trump v US is not about that. It’s about immunity.
By admitting the evidence at trial, in the framework of Trump v US Trump has already suffered the irreparable harm he shouldn’t have to suffer. It’d be really funny, to me at least, is that because the harm has already occurred and can’t be mitigated, the conviction stands. It’s a question of first _and last_ impression, which I don’t think you see too many of.
Btw, none of this is intended to be at all predictive. At this point, the Bragg case is a total crapshoot. I mean, there’s so many things in play at some point the verdict will be vacated. As to how, that’s anybody’s guess.Report
This defense of the decision inadvertently tells us why the decision is so outrageous.
Everyone agrees that paying a pornstar to keep quiet about an affair so as to conceal information from the American public and then falsifying records to conceal that fact is terrible behavior, the sort which we as a citizenry want to discourage if not punish.
But here you are telling us that this is all protected by the Constitution- Not protected for everyone, only the person who happens to win the Presidency based on that terrible behavior.
If terrible behavior is protected by the Constitution, of what good is the Constitution? If the guiding document of a republic is used to protect liars and malefactors and shield vital information from the citizens, then such a decision makes a mockery of the very document.Report
If the President cannot be held accountable for violating the law, then what good is the law?
Why should we bother to have a Congress anymore, if the President can simply do what he wants?
If the Courts are going to say the President is immune from any consequences for exceeding the law, then why do we have Courts?
A President ought to fear being held to account for exceeding his authority. A President ought to fear being charged with crimes if he commits crimes. He is, after all, tasked with the faithful execution of the laws. Far better to say that the President lacks power to violate the laws, that no criminal act is ever within the scope of Presidential power.
I suspect SCOTUS will eventually figure that out… if it’s a Democratic President being indicted for something at some point in the future.Report
Burt, I can’t POSSIBLY be expected to do my job correctly and efficiently if I have to worry about little niggling details, like whether or not what I’m doing is legal. That’s crazytalk.
What happened to “ignorance of the law is no excuse”?
And why would we let the guy who has access to legal-counsel resources we schmoes can only dream of, who should be telling him what’s legal and what’s not, get a pass for being ignorant of the law (let alone INTENTIONALLY violating it)?Report
Henceforth I will treat all SCOTUS decisions with presumptive contempt.Report
(thinks about Wickard)
(laughs)Report