The Posters

Karl Wyvern

Kavan is a four-legged wyvern, not to be confused with a dragon (which are terrible). He divides his time between North Dakota and Texas.

Related Post Roulette

23 Responses

  1. Jaybird says:

    If there is a ceasefire, I don’t know what comes next.

    What happened with the last ceasefire? Maybe what comes next is whatever happened with the last one. If there were multiple ceasefires, maybe we could look for a pattern.

    We also don’t know how things end with no ceasefire.

    If I had to guess, I’d say with most of the middle-managers of the breaking of the last ceasefire obviated.

    The thing about tearing down the posters is that it results in filming the people tearing them down. This has resulted in *MULTIPLE* jobs having been lost by the tearer-downers.

    A surprising number of them have been in the field of oral surgery. Probably a cluster? I’m not going to ask about it the next time I go into the dentist but it’s weird.

    If the argument is something like “putting up the posters is speech, therefore tearing down the posters is speech!”, then I agree. If the argument is something like “people should be able to engage in speech without being punished by the government!”, I’d say that all of the people that I’ve seen that got fired for doing this sort of thing were in the private sector and, as has been pointed out multiple times, corporations can do whatever they want.

    If the argument is “We should have a broad tolerance for speech… like, you don’t have to agree, not even on moral issues, but everyone should be allowed to say what they think about moral issues without having to worry about losing their private sector job for it!”, well… I tend to agree but I’d also note that that horse no longer seems to be in the barn. The barn, for that matter, no longer seems to be there either. We would have to build the barn before we could lock the barn door now that the horse has been stolen.

    And that’s without getting into the issue of how the end goal seems to be “we’ve now won the argument, therefore we should taboo further discussion!”

    You know, like the last kabillion times.

    But, you know, good luck making the moral argument. If you’re in a truly multicultural society, though, you’re going to have to figure out how to deal with the whole issue of “what if people have different cultural values than I do?”

    We’ve already hammered out that colonialism/forced assimilation is genocide so that’s off the table.

    Maybe you could try to be more open-minded?Report

  2. Alysia Ames says:

    I think that the posters also trigger an emotional response because they act as a memorial to the people they depict.

    Regardless, people tearing down the posters are creating propaganda against their own side and need to stop! I agree that the value of Palestinian lives is not being properly weighted in the response: by Israel, by Hamas, by the world, and for this reason their allies need to be finding the most effective ways to stand up for them!Report

  3. Damon says:

    This is, I think, one of the issues that will never be solved by conventional means. The Italians, the Germans, the Irish, and many other societies decided that “what’s done is done” at some point and began moving on instead of pining away for what they lost. Not so here. Sure maybe a few hundred years from now, but I have my doubts. This is an instance where I doubt either side will move on unless the other side is, essentially, removed from the area, or exterminated.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

      At present neither side has an incentive to move on. That, and both cultures originate in an area where wrongs committed a LONG time ago are still held culturally as dishonor that must be redressed. Its not how Europeans function, but it’s very much a present reality.Report

  4. Jaybird says:

    One of the “Israel has never, ever done anything wrong!” people I follow on the twitter showed a picture of a poster of one of the kidnapped old ladies and, underneath the poster, there was another poster saying “THIS POSTER MANUFACTURES CONSENT FOR ISRAEL’S ONGOING OCCUPATION AND ONGOING GENOCIDE OF PALESTINIANS. RESIST ISRAELI PROPAGANDA. FREE PALESTINE.”

    And the person’s response was yet another variant of “HOW DARE THEY?” and mine was something closer to “Huh. That’s a pretty elegant solution.”

    I would find it a *LOT* easier to enthusiastically defend someone for putting up a poster (even a poster I disagreed with!) in a “put up posters!” area than I’d find it to explain that people should be able to tear down posters without having getting fired for it because corporations should respect the free speech of others.Report

    • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

      Where are these poster areas outside of urban cores? The only place I’ve seen these things hanging is along the fence of a synagogue I drive by taking my kids to school.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

        I was about to say “I have never seen one of these posters” but I only go to work and Safeway and game night. There are tons of places in town that I don’t see.

        So I will talk about the various “gotcha” videos that I’ve seen where these posters are getting torn down:

        College campuses, college campuses, and college campuses. Oh, and NYC.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

      I can see situations where tearing down posters is a great response.

      It’s just that, “Well, yeah, the awful crime that poster is depicting definitely happened, and it was actually committed by the people the poster accuses of committing it, but you need to consider the broader context!” isn’t one of them.Report

  5. DensityDuck says:

    Putting up a poster is speech.

    Tearing down a poster is speech.

    We’ve had eight years of people telling us that Freedom Of Speech Is Not Freedom From Consequences.

    And it seems that we’re learning that what people mean by that is that they don’t really mean it.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

      Putting up a poster is speech. True. Tearing it down (except when it’s on the original speaker’s property) is speech. True. Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences. True, with some significant exceptions when the government is trying to impose consequences.

      But if “we” are learning only now that some (unidentified) folks “don’t really mean it,” we have been sleeping for decades. Free speech and its implications have long been unpopular, particularly when one’s own ox is not the one being gored. Opportunism and hypocrisy are old news.Report

  6. Pinky says:

    This article doesn’t really present an argument for tearing the posters down. First it poisons the well, essentially saying “you can’t be serious”. Then it says that the posters make people angry at Hamas (reasonable), and Muslims (less reasonable), then says that it’s no surprise that people on the other side would tear them down. Well, it’s no surprise that people on the other side don’t like them, but those who are capable of reason and persuasion and believe in Western principles would try to defend their position rather than tearing down posters that they don’t like.

    Then the author implies that similar posters mourning Palestinian losses would be torn down. I don’t believe that, and it’s counterfactual for now.

    And at some point, you have to address the content that’s being torn down. The content is true. It documents crimes against humanity. If the posters result in people being angry at Hamas, is that wrong? If the purpose of the posters is propaganda, can’t we argue that the purpose of tearing them down is denial?Report

  7. Jaybird says:

    #BREAKING: Rachel Birney, the #USC TA caught tearing down posters of the hostages kidnapped by Hamas has released the following statement:

    To the Jewish community at USC, especially the Israeli-Jewish community,

    My name is Rachel and I’m sure you’ve seen the video of me taking down the “Kidnapped by Hamas” posters last week at USC. First and foremost, I want to apologize for causing pain and hurt. Although it was not my intention to be hateful, my actions have offended and made members of the USC community feel unsafe, and for that I take full responsibility.

    When I removed the posters, I was worried that while some students would feel at ease with the posters displayed in the hall, other students would not be able to focus during class. I thought, at the time, that I was helping create a safer space at USC for all students, but I was wrong. In the video, I can be heard saying “neither is genocide” and I also can be seen laughing. What I intended by my comment was that both the kidnappings and mass death of people in Gaza, seen as genocide by some people, are both awful things. I meant that neither side of the conflict should be present in the environment of a physics classroom. As to the laughter, for me it was a nervous response. I was not laughing at the posters or at the act of taking them down. I was confused as to why someone was filming me, because I perceived my own actions as neutral, and was quite uncomfortable in that moment. I now understand why taking down the posters was not neutral, and was in fact very offensive. I have, since taking the posters down, learned much more about the posters and how they are beneficial by illustrating what sparked the current conflict.

    If I could go back to that day, I would not take the posters down, but that is not possible. Instead, what I can do now is offer my sincere apology, learn more about this conflict to better support my peers in this hard time, and make the effort to mend the pain I have caused.

    I believe that you cannot properly see someone as a human being unless you respect every aspect of their identity, and I have failed to do this for my Jewish peers on campus. I want to apologize for my failure to honor their experience, and I want to make it clear that I respect every person at USC, especially people who hold any political belief on this conflict that is contrary to my own. We are all human and we all deserve to be respected, and I will do my best to uphold this going forward.

    -Rachel BirneyReport

  8. LeeEsq says:

    On the other blog, one of the front liners mentioned that people tend to want to view the I/P conflict through pure good vs. evil lenses. One side is purely good and the other side is purely evil because otherwise you are dealing with a situation of insane levels of moral complexity. Tearing down the posters is a way to forget that Hamas is well in fact Hamas and not really what you can call good people.Report

  9. pillsy says:

    If you can’t come up with a good response to effective propaganda coming from the other side, you can always come up with a bad response and get mad when it doesn’t work.Report

  10. Saul Degraw says:

    I am not sure that anyone in the 21st century should be shocked by the existence of propaganda.

    “I’m under no delusions that peace would be imminently possible but for Israel’s retaliation. If there is a ceasefire, I don’t know what comes next. We also don’t know how things end with no ceasefire. We do have an idea that one of these unknowns results in far less death. That’s the unknown I would like to pursue. Those posters went up to prevent that from happening.”

    I think this is an extraordinary but for that requires a lot more empiricism and proof. I generally associate the Kidnapped posters with actions in the United States (this could be wrong) but what happens here is not going to start or stop ceasefire there. Biden and the U.S. have pressure points but Israel and Hamas have their own agency and do not have to listen to us. Neither is the 51st state.

    The big issue with with the idea of a ceasefire is that the calls are one sided and it is a bit underpants gnomes. How are you going to get Hamas to release the hostages? A ceasefire is sort of a defacto victory for Hamas that will encourage them to be more audacious.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      The last paragraph is what I don’t get about the people calling for a ceasefire. All other ceasefires ended because Hamas still existed and is well Hamas. Even Vox is starting to get that Hamas might be perfectly sincere when it states in it’s charter that the only just solution they will accept is the expulsion, and preferably death, of all Israeli Jews. So we have a ceasefire but Hamas is Hamas and will go on doing what it wants to do because they believe their theocratic politics to be correct. Then what? They want Jew gone and preferably dead so that Palestine can be created as a perfect Islamic theocracy because there is no way that millions of Jews would sign up to be second class citizens of a Muslim state.

      The Constitutional Convention of Secular Democratic Palestine:

      A decent plurality or even majority of Palestinian delegates: We want the Constitution to declare Palestine a Muslim state connected to other Muslims states with all laws having to be in conformity with Sharia and the public holidays to be Muslim holidays.

      Jewish Delegates whether they be hardcore settler types or the few remaining Labor types from the
      kibbutzes: Fish you.

      How is this going to work?Report

  11. pillsy says:

    “If there is a ceasefire, I don’t know what comes next. We also don’t know how things end with no ceasefire. We do have an idea that one of these unknowns results in far less death.”

    If there is a ceasefire, and Hamas commits another round of atrocities afterward, provoking another Israeli assault on Gaza, will there be more death, or less?Report