Mini-Throughput: Masks, Redux
With COVID-19 numbers beginning to increase and growing concerns that new variants may cause a wave of infections this winter, the pushback against potential COVID interventions is already beginning. Among the talking points of the pro-virus faction is the claim that masks did nothing to stop or slow the pandemic, based on Bret Stephens February summary of a Cochrane Library review published earlier this year. In Stephens’ article, the lead author, Tom Jefferson1 claims that they’ve proven that masks don’t work.
“There is just no evidence that they” — masks — “make any difference,” he told the journalist Maryanne Demasi. “Full stop.”
But, wait, hold on. What about N-95 masks, as opposed to lower-quality surgical or cloth masks?
“Makes no difference — none of it,” said Jefferson.
What about the studies that initially persuaded policymakers to impose mask mandates?
“They were convinced by nonrandomized studies, flawed observational studies.”
What about the utility of masks in conjunction with other preventive measures, such as hand hygiene, physical distancing or air filtration?
“There’s no evidence that many of these things make any difference.”
So that’s it, right? We did all that masking for nothing?
Not so fast.
First, let’s talk about Tom Jefferson. While he does have the academic credentials, he also has a tendency to associate with anti-vax morons, has disputed the utility of the flu vaccine and is associated with the Brownstone Institute, the primary COVID denial thinktank. This doesn’t make his research wrong, obviously, but it does place into a context. And the context is that he’s appears to be overstating the results of his work.
Let’s consider his public statements against what the review actually says:
Jefferson:
“There is just no evidence that they” — masks — “make any difference,” he told the journalist Maryanne Demasi. “Full stop.”
The study:
Wearing [medical/surgical] masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness (ILI)/COVID‐19 like illness compared to not wearing masks (risk ratio (RR) 0.95, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.84 to 1.09; 9 trials, 276,917 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence. Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza/SARS‐CoV‐2 compared to not wearing masks (RR 1.01, 95% CI 0.72 to 1.42; 6 trials, 13,919 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence). Harms were rarely measured and poorly reported (very low‐certainty evidence).
In other words, there was little evidence that surgical masks worked, but the uncertainties were high. They could be anywhere from a 16% reduction in COVID risk to a 9% increase. That actually suggest to me a slight beneficial effect but an uncertain one. And they find no evidence of harm.
Jefferson:
But, wait, hold on. What about N-95 masks, as opposed to lower-quality surgical or cloth masks?
“Makes no difference — none of it,” said Jefferson.
The study:
We are very uncertain on the effects of N95/P2 respirators compared with medical/surgical masks on the outcome of clinical respiratory illness (RR 0.70, 95% CI 0.45 to 1.10; 3 trials, 7779 participants; very low‐certainty evidence). N95/P2 respirators compared with medical/surgical masks may be effective for ILI (RR 0.82, 95% CI 0.66 to 1.03; 5 trials, 8407 participants; low‐certainty evidence). Evidence is limited by imprecision and heterogeneity for these subjective outcomes.
Now this actually suggests that N95’s did help. The uncertainty is high, ranging from a 30% benefit to a 10% deteriment. So it’s statistically consistent with no benefit. But the uncertainties are heavily on the benefit side of the equation, which suggests a benefit but does not prove one.
Jefferson again:
What about the utility of masks in conjunction with other preventive measures, such as hand hygiene, physical distancing or air filtration?
“There’s no evidence that many of these things make any difference.”
And the study again:
Comparing hand hygiene interventions with controls (i.e. no intervention), there was a 14% relative reduction in the number of people with ARIs in the hand hygiene group (RR 0.86, 95% CI 0.81 to 0.90; 9 trials, 52,105 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence), suggesting a probable benefit. In absolute terms this benefit would result in a reduction from 380 events per 1000 people to 327 per 1000 people (95% CI 308 to 342). When considering the more strictly defined outcomes of ILI and laboratory‐confirmed influenza, the estimates of effect for ILI (RR 0.94, 95% CI 0.81 to 1.09; 11 trials, 34,503 participants; low‐certainty evidence), and laboratory‐confirmed influenza (RR 0.91, 95% CI 0.63 to 1.30; 8 trials, 8332 participants; low‐certainty evidence), suggest the intervention made little or no difference. We pooled 19 trials (71, 210 participants) for the composite outcome of ARI or ILI or influenza, with each study only contributing once and the most comprehensive outcome reported. Pooled data showed that hand hygiene may be beneficial with an 11% relative reduction of respiratory illness (RR 0.89, 95% CI 0.83 to 0.94; low‐certainty evidence), but with high heterogeneity. In absolute terms this benefit would result in a reduction from 200 events per 1000 people to 178 per 1000 people (95% CI 166 to 188). Few trials measured and reported harms (very low‐certainty evidence).
To summarize that block of text: hand-washing helped. There’s evidence of that. It falls apart when you break down the sample further, but it is suggestive.
Those word salads may sound uncertain to you because … they are. Like all sound studies, this one is very careful about stating the limits of their results and the possible confounding factors that may be throwing them off. But look again at Jefferson’s statements. Note his certainty. His simplicity. None of it works, he says. No question. No doubt. By contrast, this is what the study says:
Our confidence in these results is generally low to moderate for the subjective outcomes related to respiratory illness, but moderate for the more precisely defined laboratory‐confirmed respiratory virus infection, related to masks and N95/P2 respirators. The results might change when further evidence becomes available. Relatively low numbers of people followed the guidance about wearing masks or about hand hygiene, which may have affected the results of the studies.
These caveats are necessary because the Cochrane study mashes together different kinds of studies into one big glop of science.
The analysis is flawed because it compares apples to oranges. The paper mixes together studies that were conducted in different environments with different transmission risks. It also combines studies where masks were worn part of the time with studies where masks are worn all the time. And it blends studies that looked at Covid-19 with studies that looked at influenza.
If apples work and oranges don’t, but your analysis mixes them together, you may come to the false conclusion that apples don’t work. Out of the 78 papers analyzed in the review, only two actually studied masking during the Covid-19 pandemic. And both of those found that masks did protect wearers from Covid-19. But these studies are drowned out by the greater number of studies on influenza included, where the benefit of masking is harder to detect because it’s a far less contagious virus than Covid-19.
Note that this was written in February, when the study first came out. It’s not a new study. This tends to be a tactic of the COVID skeptics: tout a study, wait for the furor to die down, then tout it again. But Tran goes into the weeds here, showing that while the study is interesting, it is far from conclusive.2
Early in the pandemic, Starslate Codex joked that it’s difficult to do double-blind control studies of masks for the same reason it’s difficult to do double-blind control studies of parachutes. There’s no such thing as placebo mask, with Lana Del Ray-sized exemptions. Any mask breaks up airflow and therefore might do something to slow the spread. Community-based studies have been more suggestive but, again, it’s really hard to measure compliance and other factors can have a huge impact.
Jefferson and others have suggested that what we should have done was had some states masks and other not. But not only would this be unethical, it still wouldn’t tell us anything because masks are not the only thing that impacts COVID infection rates. If you don’t believe me, check out Jefferon’s own study, which talks about this. If California had fewer cases than New York, was it because of masks? Or lockdowns? Or the weather? Or the differing strains? Or some combination of all of the above plus factors we don’t know about? Absolutely.
I have and probably will never understand the hostility to masks in the skeptic crowd. There isn’t a huge amount of evidence that they do harm (source: Jefferson’s study) and some evidence that they can help on a community level (source: Jefferson’s study). I wore them because my wife is immune-compromised. I also wore them when teaching because I didn’t want to potentially spray COVID all over my students. I don’t like masks but the hysteria over them seems fantastically out of proportion.
I’m also not sure that we need to bring back mask mandates under the present circumstances. Almost everyone has had COVID or been vaccinated. Very few people have no resistance. So whatever impact they had in the early stages — and it doesn’t appear to have been huge — would be even lower now. And the justification — keeping our hospitals from being overrun — is lessened. But that may change in a hurry if a particularly vicious variant comes back. And, honestly, slowing the flu might be better justification for masks at this point. No one seems to have noticed that whatever our interventions did for COVID, they massively mitigated flu seasons and may have even yeeted one strain of flu into extinction. We’re kind of overdue for a bad flu season.
Still, I expect this study to be cited a lot, even if better studies supersede it and show that masks work. Because the COVID skeptics use studies the way drunks use lampposts — for support, not illumination. For every ten studies showing Ivermectin doesn’t cure COVID, they’ll site one study that claims it does. For every ten studies showing HCQ doesn’t cure COVID, they’ll site one that claims it does. For every ten studies showing the vaccines are safe, they’ll cite … well, actually they don’t have any studies showing vaccines kill, so they’ll just make them up.
(And, to be fair, the pro-intervention side has a tendency to ignore studies that don’t support their side either. Few have addressed the Cochrane review head on.)
It seems that the battle lines are drawn on this. But, stubborn mule that I am, I will continue to point out the facts, the uncertainties and the caveats. Because they matter. At some level.
1. I am so tired. Tired unto death. I hope we don’t get another serious transmissible disease soon given how so many Americans are just oppositionally-defiant about doing anything to help their neighbors any more/willing to listen to cranks who don’t have background on the topic spout forth what they want to hear. I’ve really soured on my fellow citizens in these past 3 years and I don’t see my feelings about them ever improving.
2. Was there not a study out of a SE Asian nation (possibly Indonesia?) that was a large-scale study that showed that masking was actually pretty darn effective? And not even the “everyone has to do it” as it was the “you are protected by your mask.” One thing that frustrated me deeply in the mask debate is that like for a year or two it was believed “my mask protects you; your mask protects me” and when I’d walk into the Kroger and be in the 2% of shoppers who were masked…..well, it did psychological damage, “Those people don’t give a (poop) about me, all the things I ever do are to benefit others and I never get any” so it was useful to know that masks actually helped the wearer.
3. My 87 year old mother masked in public until a couple months ago. She asks my advice regularly about it despite me being the same kind of biologist as she is (therefore: not an epidemiologist). (I think I have stepped into the role of being the one who advises and reassures now that my father is gone, and frankly it’s kind of exhausting). I recently advised her it might be wise to mask up at church again (she asked me) or anywhere where she’s going to be indoors in a group for a while
4. I’ve seen studies saying transmission is most likely if you’re in a crowd for an extended time – so a 15 minute run through a grocery store is probably OK; going on a plane for three hours a mask is probably a wise choice. That’s going to be my plan going forward.Report
The problem is that any mask study based on self-reported data is useless because there’s no way to determine whether “wore a mask” meant “tightly-fitted N95” or “nylon bandanna tugged up over the mouth when someone is around”. So if you include a bunch of those studies in your analysis then of course you’ll conclude that Masks Don’t Work.
There have been a few studies of cough-dispersal through various types of masks, and they’ve all found that a properly-fitted N95 greatly reduces transmission while cloth does basically nothing relevant to COVID-19. So “wearing an N95 fitted tightly over mouth and nose reduces risk, wearing any other material or any other fit does not” seems like a reasonable conclusion. “What does this mean for COVID risk” is dependent on so many other factors that it’s not a question that a mask study will answer.Report
Very true and salient points.Report
There was a Nature study that found that single-layer t-shirt masks were worse than nothing, double-layer t-shirt masks were more-or-less even, and properly fitted N95 masks worked well.
But you wouldn’t believe the pushback that this study got.
It made me wonder if “YOU HAVE TO COMMUNICATE YOU ARE ON BOARD!” wasn’t the most important thing for a while there.
And then politicians started being photographed not wearing masks and the questions became “Lol. Why do you care?”Report
“But look again at Jefferson’s statements. Note his certainty. His simplicity. None of it works, he says.”
Yeah.
You know what we heard, a lot, over the past couple of years? “Masks work. Hand-washing works. Lockdowns work. Remote-learning works.” The same certainty, the same simplicity, the same lack of ‘nuance’. There was no “masks reduce risk somewhat, if you wear the right kind or mask the right way”. There was no “you can probably get together outside, so long as you don’t get too close to other people and nobody’s actively coughing”. There was no “we’re not sure what matters, but these are things that seem useful, but if you don’t mind risk then you can make your own decisions”. None of that. Masks work. Lockdowns work. Remote-learning works. We conduct the ritual of Science that the demon Rona may be kept from our door, we invoke the saints Fauci and Tyson and Sagan, Secular Amen.Report
I’m a reasonably healthy over 50 year old guy. The only time I wore a mask was when it was required to be worn by the grocery store. I worked remote, so there was that. I spent the same number of hours in the matt doing jujitsu (once the state allowed gyms to reopen-about 2-3 months after they closed them) with the same number of people, sweating into my face, in actual physical contact with people and inhaling their exhales. Other than getting deathly sick BEFORE covid was officially here, I never got sick from covid, or sick. That was BEFORE I got vaxxed.
Also: Fauci lied…..Report
(you got COVID. It just wasn’t symptomatic.)Report
On yes it was symptomatic. That’s what the deathly sick comment was about. Covid was here before it was “officially” published that it was here, by at least a month.Report
People can make their own decisions regarding their own behavior, and everyone is free to figure out their own risk tolerance and do their own cost-benefit analysis. Of course there will always be people who loudly and strongly disagree with others’ choices — that happens with silly stuff like condiments and clothing, all the more so with health-related decisions.
But at the point that you’re supporting or advocating for mandates, it’s your obligation as a citizen in a democracy to seriously account for the fact that other people will have different conclusions and opinions, some of which you may not understand or may disagree with, and to to apply both a higher evidentiary standard and a higher level of empathy/humility. Just saying e.g. “I think wearing a mask is no big deal, so it should be fine to impose a mandate even if the evidence is not rock-solid, just in case” is IMO not being a very good citizen.
I’m not saying mask mandates were not justified in summer 2020 based on what we knew (though I’m not saying they were not not justified either), but i was disturbed by the thought process commonly expressed online that was dismissive about other people’s subjective opinions on the experience of masking.Report
My thought process is and was quite simple – your right to disagree with me ends where your disagreement begins to endanger me and my kids. Full stop. Neither of us has the right to impose risk on others – and at the time the anti-maskers wanted to do just that.Report
You’re right, that is simple. Unfortunately the world is not simple, and I don’t like to be ruled by people like you who like to pretend that it is. There’s an obvious assumption in your “simple” rule — see if you can spot it!Report
It seems to me that we got to a weird place where mask/rejection of as cultural signifier became more important than efficacy. Say we had hard proof that masks reduced transmission by 99.9%. If that were the case then Philip’s perspective really would be compelling and objections related to personal choice/experience pretty unpersuasive. Similarly if we knew even in ideal circumstances they only prevented .1% of transmission any insistence on them would rightly be understood as highly personal and frankly kind of eccentric.
The debate we had was such that resulted in people wearing them while walking alone outdoors on one hand and arguments so ignorant that taken to their logical conclusion would suggest that medical professionals and nursing home workers dispense with them.Report
It’s almost as if there is a large group of people whose identity is based on cultural grievance.Report
It’s interesting to think about an alternate history where Trump wasn’t nominated — the underlying polarization would still have been there to some extent, including the populist right vs the academic/journalist left and social media as amplifier, but was Trump (and the reaction to him) a necessary component?Report
An alternative history where we went through covid with any other plausible POTUS is one I’ve pondered a number of times. I think it’s hard to overstate the distortion effect Trump caused on everything, from the bizarre public addresses to encouraging disunity between the federal government and the states. I can’t really imagine anyone else doing that stuff. Of course I’ve also come to wonder if anyone else would have done warp speed so successfully. I used to think it was a no brainer but now I wonder if establishment politicians would have failed, the Republicans due to some nonsensical allegiance to ‘free market’ fundamentalism, the Democrats due to skepticism of big pharma and a fetish for bureaucracy. I’ve tried to explain to my brothers, both of whom live overseas, exactly how weird the dynamic was and I never feel like I can do it justice. And of course now no one able to own what was arguably the most successful thing the United States government has done in a generation, which is maybe the strangest legacy of all.Report
“It seems to me that we got to a weird place where mask/rejection of as cultural signifier became more important than efficacy. ”
Remember that recent Twitter thing about “blue pill / red pill”?
Wearing a mask was, basically, that.Report
That unmasked people created danger to me and my family prior to the development of vaccines is not an assumption. Its a cornerstone of virology and epidemiology.
And if its not that simple, then all the wand waving about the second amendment being necessary because you can’t expect or get the police to protect you isn’t that simple either.
And either way, I have zero sympathy for people who are so callous as to not care about any danger they might present to my family. Protecting each other is part of community.Report
It would appear that your children were safer from serious illness than any older adult no matter how thoroughly masked. There doesn’t seem to be any debate about the damage to social and academic development among children though.Report
1) At the time we didn’t know that.
2) My children could have been – and still are – vectors for disease transmission to others.
3) None of the initial results on social and academic development give anyone the right to endanger me or my kids. Since, Again, we didn’t know any of that.Report
We knew that children weren’t at much risk by summer 2020. Anecdotally we had reason to believe that there would be educational and developmental problems from prolonged absences, remote learning, and masking. I mean, the developed world is moving toward year-round schooling because we know the impact of long absences. You may not remember us talking about both those things three summers ago, but we were. And if you were worried about children being vectors for transmission, you’re as good as conceding you weren’t worried about the children getting the disease.Report
At the time I said closing schools – at least down here – was about keeping older teachers, administrators, and grandparents in car line from catching a disease we had few treatments for and no vaccine against. I was also concerned about kids with asthma – this being a respiratory virus after all. And frankly until late 2021 or early 2022 I had little confidence in the evidence free decisions of red state politicians to reopen because it seemed they really didn’t care about how many people their decisions killed. To date we have lost 1,140,278 Americans to the pandemic, and hospitalized 6,289,643. We may never know how many would have been spared had there been uniform national opening and closing decisions and effective mask mandates, but the number would not likely have been that high.Report
The reasonable ending of your comment would be “I realize now that I badly misjudged the situation compared to most other people”, rather than an assertion that you were somehow probably right.Report
“[Y]our right to disagree with me ends where your disagreement begins to endanger me and my kids…at the time the anti-maskers wanted to do just that.”
So cloth masks worked as a method of reducing danger, then?Report
Two layer cloth masks of tight weave cotton material reduced exhalation based dispersal as a matter of physics. Anything that reduces dispersal of an inhaled virus reduces danger.Report
That’s true for three layer.
Two layer ended up being a wash.
I know. I was surprised too.Report
A wash is still protective in some circumstances. More so then not statistically.Report
At the end of the day, isn’t communicating that you’re on board the truly important message to send, even if the studies seem to not indicate much?Report
The studies still show masks of differing materials as being of different effectiveness. At the beginning of mask wearing, all we knew for sure was this is a respiratory illness and that disrupting the respiratory delivery chain was important. Now, we have a much better idea what kind of masks work and what kind don’t. We also have vaccines and semi-effective anti-virals for treatment. Which means that its unlikely we will have to go back to mask mandates.
I still mask when I fly (because I didn’t trust airline filtration before and certainly won’t now. I have masked in meetings in the last year when asked, and will continue to do so. Partly to communicate community caring, and partly because masks do have some efficacy to disrupt the spread.Report
What surprised me is that gaiters were worse than nothing and single-layer were also worse than nothing.
You didn’t get to “as good as nothing” until you got to two-layer masks.
Which surprised me.Report
considering that most exam masks used in doctors offices are two layer or three layer I’m not surprised. And our doctors still mask in the clinical setting . . . .Report
No, go back and find my posts.
I explained to you at least three times already what your link said, and there is one word you are consistently leaving out which contradicts your comment.
Find it, and you will understand.Report
No, Chip.
You’re wrong.Report
We still mask when we’re in public places with lots of face to face contact. Also we mask at church services where there will be singing, but not later at the outdoor social hour. In addition, we wear N95 masks. I spent decades doing bench work in labs where protective equipment is required.
We’re in the top levels of age groups. Some friends of ours of similar age and also fully vaccinated have been very sick with Covid for many days. We don’t want to take any chances when we depend so much on each other.Report
I have and probably will never understand the hostility to masks in the skeptic crowd.
I’ll have to make an analogy. Remember “two weeks to slow the spread” back in 2020? How people were asked to stay home and flatten the curve and NOT BE SELFISH and do stuff like “go to the beach” or “go swing on swingsets” or the like?
Here’s a picture of me from April 2020 when I found an excuse to drive to a friend’s house and leave some hamburger, Hamburger Helper, and a bottle of wine on his porch WITHOUT INTERACTING WITH HIM:
You can’t be too careful.
Anyway, there started being police protests and those rules about hanging out in large crowd *EVAPORATED* overnight. Hey, remember those covid rules against jogging at the beach? Well, you should, instead, hang out with 30,000 of your closest friends protesting police violence.
Here’s an article talking about how the NYC covid trackers did not ask about whether people went to protests.
There are important rules about gatherings. Until, *POOF*, there’s not.
Well, when it comes to masking, there are some *VERY* important rules about masks. Wait, until it turns out that politicians are going out to eat, or hang out in the club, or go to the Superbowl, or maybe show up at the Met Gala.
At that point the explanation comes out that, well, why do you care whether these guys mask? You know that *YOU* should mask, right?
If I tell you that you shouldn’t walk on my lawn because of the landmines and, the next day, you see me practicing my tap dancing on my lawn, the problem isn’t “Man, Jaybird is a real hypocrite!” but “Man, maybe Jaybird was lying about the landmines.”
Anyway, if you want to know where *MY* hostility comes from, it comes from that.Report
So apparently the virus behaves differently, because of what angers you.
Like, before the protests, a the microdroplets were blocked by a good mask.
But after all those people started doing things that angered you, why, the virus no longer shoots out your nose when you sneeze!Report
See? This is a great example.
Thanks, Chip.Report
“after all those people started doing things that angered you, why, the virus no longer shoots out your nose when you sneeze!”
so everyone at the George Floyd protests was masked, then?Report
“I used to believe that seat belt laws were sensible and protected people. But then I saw all those fancy people in limousines without seat belts.
So now I am hostile to seat belt laws.”
What’s interesting is to compare the conservative and liberal views of this.
A liberal could easiy have written jaybird’s comment- e.g., “I saw all those MAGAs rallying without masks, so now I am hostile to mask mandates.”
Except…you don’t see very much of that because liberals are not driven by grievance.
Seat belt laws, hairnet laws, hand washing laws, and mask mandates are sensible and desirable regardless of whather some people ignore them or not.Report
Chip, what I also found interesting was that when I said that I resented still wearing a mask despite politicians who set mandates that masks be worn not wearing them, there were people *DEFENDING* the politicians while mocking me for, for example, not wearing a seatbelt.
I *WAS* wearing a mask! I was doing so dutifully! I was pissed off at the mandate-makers flouting THEIR OWN FREAKING MANDATES.
And I was asked “Why do you care?”
If *I* didn’t wear a mask, the accusations would come about me not caring about others. Killing grandma, and the like. We saw such things.
But when the people who set the mandates weren’t wearing one? We got into whether the county that they were in had mask mandates. Whether the photo was taken out of context because maybe they had just taken a sip of water. Whether it mattered because they were in a tent which is practically outside. Whether it mattered because even though they were inside, everybody else was masked.
Rules for me.
But not for others.
“Oh, so you think you shouldn’t have to wear a seatbelt? Maybe fly through the windshield into a crowd of nuns and orphans?”
“No, I wear my seatbelt every time.”
“So what’s the problem.”
“Shouldn’t they wear seatbelts?”
“Why do you care?”Report
So you are not hostile to mask mandates after all?
Just resentful of people who flout them?Report
Imagine, if you will, a police force.
This police force polices this part of town but not that part of town.
You with me so far? Like, can you comprehend this situation? I don’t want to go farther than this if the above is something you can’t even imagine.Report
Wouldn’t it just be easier to answer the question instead of deflecting to a strained analogy?
You said your hostility comes from seeing people say one thing then do another.
So your hostility is to the people, not the mandates?Report
I was not hostile to the mask mandates at first.
Now, having answered your question, I will reask mine:
Can you imagine a police force that polices this part of town heavily but ignores that part of town?
Is that something that you can comprehend?Report
We do comprehend it. Because that’s what happens in black neighborhoods in American cities. And a great many of us agreed with you about the politicians.
As to the protests, I distinctly remember at the time, and for a time after, Chip and I pointing out that 1) lots of people in those pictures were indeed masked; 2) Many of us were worried about the crowd sizes and the potential for significant disease related outcomes; 3) none of the official rules were relaxed; and 4) those protests were important enough to enough people that they ignored that rule.Report
And a great many of us agreed with you about the politicians.
Really?
Because I have links to the threads at the time.
As for the protests… well, lemme see if I can dig those threads up too.Report
Phil, here’s a fun thread from the time.
One of the topics that came up was this event.
You even commented in the thread discussing it!Report
Now that you’ve affirmed that you became hostile to the mandates after witnessing hypocrites flout them, we don’t need another analogy.
It may be understandable, but no less nonsensical for the reasons I laid out above.Report
No, Chip. You’re still not understanding.
Which brings me back to the analogy.
Can you imagine a police force that polices this part of town heavily but ignores that part of town?
Is that something that you can comprehend?
I answered your question.
Can you please answer mine?Report
Yes I can comprehend that, for the same reason I completely understand your position.
You’ve literally told us explicitly you were not hostile to he mandates at firstnbut then became hostile to them after witnessing people being hypcritical.
Seriously man, we all understand it completely. There is no great mystery here.Report
No, you’re still not understanding.
The problem with the police policing this part of town but not that part of town is *NOT* hypocrisy.
Do you understand that the hypocrisy isn’t the problem or is that the only lens through which you can comprehend being upset that the police police this part of town but not that one?Report
Uh huh:
“If I tell you that you shouldn’t walk on my lawn because of the landmines and, the next day, you see me practicing my tap dancing on my lawn, the problem isn’t “Man, Jaybird is a real hypocrite!” but “Man, maybe Jaybird was lying about the landmines.”
You realize this is worse, right? That this is more nonsensical and illogical?
Saying it was hypocrisy is being charitable.
This is just…well, damn.Report
Yes, I do realize that it is worse.
Which is why I was surprised to see people saying “Who cares if she’s tapdancing on her lawn. You know better than to deliberately step on landmines, right?”Report
Thinking they were lying about the masks because they were flouting them is conspiracy woo level illogic.
It requires all sorts of bizarre backflips and contortions to make sense, when the simplest explanation is that rich people feel privileged.Report
Which brings us back to the police.
The problem with the police policing this part of town but not that part of town is *NOT* hypocrisy.
Do you understand that the hypocrisy isn’t the problem or is that the only lens through which you can comprehend being upset that the police police this part of town but not that one?Report
I understand that YOU think it isn’t about hypocrisy but like I said, becoming hostile because you think they were lying is just nuts.Report
No, Chip. I’m not saying that I think that they were lying.
But they were sure acting as though they were. Do you see that? Or can you not even comprehend that? Is “hypocrisy” the only lens that makes sense to you?Report
And because they were acting as if they were lying, this makes you hostile to mask mandates?Report
No. It’s not that. It’s the policing.
You say this: “the simplest explanation is that rich people feel privileged.”
Now imagine a situation where the police do not police the rich.
Do you see why the problem might not be “they feel privileged” but “they *ARE* privileged”?
(Where the definition of “privileged” is “having special rights, advantages, or immunities”)Report
And because the policing was done unevenly you became hostile to the mask mandates?Report
I think that a law that only applies to the less privileged is obviously a bad law.
This can be rectified by either making sure that lawbreakers are policed even if they are privileged or by defunding the police.
“But defunding the police is a *STUPID* response!”, you may be tempted to say.
I agree.Report
The law applied to everyone. It was not enforced on the priveledged. We agree that was not right. We see that failure of enforcement as hypocrisy.Report
Do we agree that it was not right?
It seems like we’re still in “why do you care?” territory.
“We see that failure of enforcement as hypocrisy.”
You might.
I don’t.Report
“I think that a law that only applies to the less privileged is obviously a bad law.”
Does this apply also to theft?Report
Sure.
Now I see you’re starting to apprehend the issue.Report
It just lead back to thinking this is so bizarrely illogical as to be preposterous.
If I were to say this about shoplifting, it would be held up for ridicule on Libs Of TikTok, and for good reason.Report
“We should only police shoplifting in this part of town but not that part of town”?
You’d be surprised at who seems to be on board with such a statement.
I’d note that they seem to be coextensive with the people who get the “why do you care?” treatment when they don’t wear masks rather than the “they should wear masks” treatment.Report
No, actually I wouldn’t be surprised at all.
“Laws are bad because they get policed unevenly” are the sorts of comments that terminally online leftier-than-thou types make, and get routinely mocked and ridiculed for, and for good reason because they are nuts.
In their milder form, they are the heart of Critical Race Theory.Report
In their milder form, they’re the part of Critical Race Theory that most agree is accurate and indicative of corruption in the systematically racist system.
That’s the *MOTTE*, Chip! THE MOTTE IS THE GOOD PART.Report
Uh, go ahead and run with that.
I’ll still be over here saying its nuts.Report
And that, too, can also be checked against stuff that was said when the fashion was oh-so-recently different.Report
“So you are not hostile to mask mandates after all?
Just resentful of people who flout them?”
you’re saying that you’re not upset by people flouting mask mandates?Report
Where are you getting this?
Note the part in capital letters. Is this the behavior of a man who thought that masks were highly effective against transmission of COVID-19?Report
To illustrate the point again, you can read this thread here.
I was following the rules and doing what I could to be a good citizen during a pandemic.
When I complained about the people who set the rules not following their own rules, I got the treatment you can see above.
I was not hostile to masks for two years.
I have begun to grow hostile to mask mandates. Perhaps if we establish that people should follow them, maybe I could be talked into being on board.
But if the rules are back to being “important people shouldn’t be held to the same standard as you will be held to”, I will be hostile to mandates.
I hope it’s easier to understand the hostility now.Report
“I don’t like masks but the hysteria over them seems fantastically out of proportion.”
I loathed masks and I was a teacher who was forced to wear them through March 2022. I routinely surveyed my students and got the following results.
30% *wanted* masks (many still wear them)
30% didn’t much care about masks one way or another.
40% HATED masks with a white hot passion.
(95% of the kids were nonwhite in a deep blue state)
That pretty clearly takes it out of ideology and into personal preference. So your decision that the people who loathed them are just irrational is pretty much like saying that people who think chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla are bat shit crazy.
Just as clearly, masks didn’t make enough of a difference to give impose restrictions on people who felt they were unnecessary. The burden is never on the well to protect the sick.
By the way, I never masked unless legally required to, travelled everywhere by car and plane throughout the pandemic, taught classrooms full of kids unmasked (so long as I was at my desk or standing in front) and never got covid. It’s all about immune system.Report
The burden is on the community to protect itself, sick or well. And to work together to achieve that protection.
Possibly, and with 77.5% of US adults having Covid anti bodies in the last year you may have been lucky. Or, more likely, you had it but didn’t have symptoms.
Either way, using that as an excuse to refuse active measures to help protect your community sure comes off as selfish.Report
There won’t be any lockdowns, mass closures or mask mandates. The public has no appetite for it and, with vaccinations and better treatment options available, the systemic risk of Covid is much lower. The politicians aren’t fools enough to not be able to read that writing on the walls (to say nothing of elections being next year). Moreover, the localities with politicians most prone to such action also have the highest levels of vaccination and hospital bed availability and, thus, the lowest need for lockdowns, mass closures or mask mandates.Report
Here is an interesting story:
The GOP Turned Its Back on Science. So Science Turned Its Backs on the GOP.
Physicians are now increasingly a reliable Democratic constituency. It’s part of a broader national voting shift toward Democrats among professionals in the health care, pharmaceutical and life sciences realm.
For physicians, their leftward turn is a reversal from decades past, when doctors commonly identified as Republican. At the time, their GOP preference was a business concern: They owned small practices. They had yet to enter the era of employment in large medical systems. “Most doctors are Republicans,” as one Florida physician observed to the New York Times in 1996. “Most doctors’ dads were Republicans. They do not see themselves as proletarian. They see themselves as bourgeois.”
…
As Ciarrocchi views it, the politics of the Covid era both accelerated the shift to the Democratic Party and may have hardened many voters in place in areas like suburban Philadelphia. “In the debates over vaccines, mandates and lockdowns, Republicans, through their words and actions, were seen to oppose or not ‘trust the science,’” said Ciarrocchi. “Regardless of the merits of those debates, many in health care and life sciences took those criticisms personally. What was beginning as a trend a decade ago has accelerated over the past three years.”
Republicans thought they were just throwing stones at Dr. Fauci or abortion doctors or transgender specialists, but the attacks are alienating the entire field of professionals.Report
This might be just my sheer heterosexuality speaking but I thought that the masks added an element of allure when I was out and about.Report
I too, enjoyed the Eyes Wide Shut parties.
I was the one wearing a big nose and glasses disguise.Report
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1nYEH6EDwM&t=201sReport
Forty million Iranian men can’t be wrong!Report
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tDjBvklkIQReport
DeSantis backs Florida surgeon general in urging residents against new Covid vaccines
Lashing out at what he called the “medical authoritarianism” of mask mandates and other anti-Covid measures, DeSantis accused federal health agencies of being “basically an arm of Big Pharma” as they mulled authorizing the vaccines as early as next week.
…
DeSantis is lagging badly in the race for his party’s 2024 nomination, but his campaign has forged a rightwing agenda that has seemed at times to outflank even that of dominant frontrunner Donald Trump.
Meanwhile, Dr Joseph Ladapo, the governor’s hand-picked surgeon general and a vaccine skeptic previously found to have manipulated data on vaccine safety, falsely claimed the new booster shots had not been tested on humans, and contained “red flags”.
What is remarkable about this is the tacit admission that DeSantis doesn’t even bellieve his own words, but feels compelled to speak the anti-vax woo so as to improve his standing with the party base, which presumably is filled with anti-vax weirdos.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/09/florida-covid-vaccines-desantis-joseph-ladapoReport
Happened to stumble across this:
Report
And 6 weeks after the pandemic was declared, long before we really understood the mechanics of transmission, virulence and treatment I think that’s an entirely understandable sign. Since its dated May 2, 2020 and all.Report