On Fraud, Standing, and “Stewart and Mike” Not Getting Their Day in Court

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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14 Responses

  1. Brandon Berg says:

    What was the basis for standing? I’ve always heard that the courts don’t make advisory rulings and only rule on actual cases, hence the shenanigans that are sometimes involved in getting a test case before the court (e.g. Lawrence v. Texas, where the defense asked the judge to increase the fine in order to make it large enough to appeal).

    Also, in addition to everything you said, I’d like to point out that the Supreme Court’s main role is to settle questions of law, not of fact. Often the facts of a particular case are little more than a pretext for ruling on a legal question. Given that, the standing requirements we have are rather silly, in my opinion, but it’s the system we have. I get the sense that there are probably about fifty people in the country who actually care about standing (I don’t claim to be one of them), and everybody else is really just complaining about laws they like being subjected to judicial review.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Her basis of standing is that the plaintiff wants to expand her graphic design business to include services for couples seeking wedding websites, but she’s afraid that she will receive a request to do something that she doesn’t want to do under threat of legal sanction. It might be better if she was in the business, but standing doesn’t require someone to violate the law to get access to the courts.

      It’s a better standing argument than the third-party assertions in the student loan case. (My wife wants to go into the wedding website business and I’m afraid of the economic consequences for me, but she doesn’t agree with me.)Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to PD Shaw says:

        Huh. I guess I’ve just been misinformed, because I was always under the impression that that was exactly the kind of thing the courts refused to rule on and that you actually had to do the thing and get charged, sued, or fined to challenge the law.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          There is something called the declaratory judgment act which authorizes courts to give a declaration of the rights of parties in a controversy. The state passes a law requiring blacks to sit at the back of the bus — a black could sue for a declaration that this violates the Constitution. An employee wants to change jobs, but is concerned about non-compete contract he signed — he can sue for a declaration that the non-compete isn’t binding or not applicable to the job he is seeking.

          If I recall the issue with challenging sodomy statutes was the unlikelihood of prosecution of private conduct on right of privacy grounds. The fact pattern in which the cops stumbled into someone’s bedroom to see that which may not be named made the difference.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to PD Shaw says:

            If I recall the issue with challenging sodomy statutes was the unlikelihood of prosecution of private conduct on right of privacy grounds. The fact pattern in which the cops stumbled into someone’s bedroom to see that which may not be named made the difference.

            Just to set the record straight: The cops actually lied here. Completely lied. They did not stumble across any sort of ongoing sodomy, they just entered into an apartment that had two gay men in it. (Or possibly three!)

            Their stories don’t even match with each other…one cop asserted it was anal sex and the other asserted there was some oral, which…are pretty hard to mistake for each other. Other cops don’t mention sex at all.

            Gay activists just _happened_ to be told about the case, about someone being charged with this law they’d like to see removed but was mostly just used to _threaten_ gay men but not actually used in any way that could be challenged in courts (Like you said, the courts came up with some bogus reason.), and said ‘Uh…Lawrence, how about if instead of arguing that you were innocent due to the fact you were innocent, you instead argue no contest but that you are innocent because the law is unconstitutional.’

            The entire case as it was presented (Two men in a committed relationship, instead of ‘some drunk gay men who were just roommates and not having sex or even in a relationship’) was a deliberate scam on the part of the plaintiffs and their lawyers (While carefully never actually lying to the court), which is feel is entirely fitting in response to the police literally just lying their ass off to get them arrested.

            To read the entire story:
            https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/03/12/extreme-makeover-dahlia-lithwickReport

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to PD Shaw says:

        Does the potential harm need to be that specific? I was under the same impression as BB. I can think of lots of potential harm a government regulation can do me.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

          I think the harm needs to be anticipated, not speculative. This is the standing criteria cited by the trial court in this case: “In the context of a pre-enforcement challenge, to show an injury in fact, a party must allege ‘an intention to engage in a course of conduct arguably affected with a constitutional interest, but proscribed by a statute, and there exists a credible threat of prosecution thereunder.'” That sounds like her story.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to PD Shaw says:

            I found the NRO article helpful in explaining why no one familiar with the case had an issue with standing or the factual submission of the request (it’s not disputed that the request exists)… even if the request was a hoax.

            Feel free to expound upon for non lawyers.

            https://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/foolish-arguments-against-standing-in-303-creative-part-1/Report

            • PD Shaw in reply to Marchmaine says:

              The link seems fine. I’ve been wondering about examples of pre-enforcement challenges, and abortion seems like a good example. I’m not aware of any of the key abortion cases (post-Roe) requiring a woman to have an abortion in order to get judicial review. The Wikipedia entry says the plaintiff’s lawyers were concerned that any woman would be insufficient to satisfy standing: “Plaintiff is a woman who may become pregnant some day and may want an abortion.” This might not work either: “Plaintiff is a woman trying to become pregnant so she could get an abortion, but for the anti-abortion laws.” With a pregnant woman, the story was tightened by eliminated a contingency.

              One other point I haven’t seen addressed is that standing is supposed to be present when the complaint was filed and all through the case. It’s a prerequisite for the courts to have power to act and judges can raise the issue themselves. If one of the parties think that there was no standing in this case, they can file a motion with the SCOTUS articulating what they’ve learned.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      I specifically and intentionally didn’t wade into that, except to say it’s arguable. One day when I have the time and am feeling particularly sado-masochistic I may try to reconcile this case with other SCOTUS rulings on standing.Report

  2. It’s interesting that SCOTUS ruled with no objections on this purely hypothetical case, while Thomas, Gorsuch, and Alito rejected the much more real (and constitutionally important) independent state legislature case as moot.Report

  3. Thanks for writing this Em. There’s been so much bad commentary on this.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      Every time I see a stupid or bad-faith criticism of a Supreme Court ruling I understand by people who ought to know better, I’m that much more inclined to assume that criticisms of rulings I don’t understand are just partisan hackery.Report