How Far Is Too Far In Supporting Ukraine?
As you may have heard, the war in Ukraine that has been raging since the Russian invasion last February is reaching a new phase: a major Ukrainian counteroffensive. This push by Kyiv to retake its lost territory will fundamentally alter the entire picture and tenor of the war going forward. Lines of contact will shift, breakthroughs will occur, and new lines of contact and defense will be settled for the fall and winter campaigning seasons. Many of the NATO weapons systems transferred to Ukraine will get their first real chance to make a difference on the battlefield. Moves are likely to be made in several theaters, including partisan actions within Russia itself – something we have already seen in Belgorod and elsewhere. The war will likely continue for several years, but this Ukrainian counteroffensive can set the terms for what happens going forward.
Now that this new phase of the war has begun – one with Ukraine decidedly, albeit temporarily, on the front foot – commentators and politicians in the West have started to debate, discuss, and reassess war aims. This is always a crucial topic of conversation when a nation in involved in a war, whether directly as Ukraine and Russia are, or indirectly as the United States and NATO are. These discussions usually involve questions like “What do we seek to gain through this conflict?”, “What is a positive endgame for us in this war?”, and “What is an acceptable solution for our national interests?” These are very important questions, but the answers from those on the fringes of the discourse – especially those who are the most outwardly supportive of Ukraine – have been seriously lacking.
I have written many times before about the useful idiots for Russia who want nothing more than an end to the war in Ukraine; of course, they want that end to be entirely on Moscow’s terms and would gleefully sacrifice the sovereignty and nationhood of Ukraine to achieve that aim. Now, however, that absurd, destructive wishcasting has been thoroughly embraced by the exact opposite people: the most hardcore of the pro-Ukraine partisans. I am not someone who is pro-Russia or anti-Ukraine – hell, I think the Biden administration and the West more generally have been too slow and cautious in their support for Kyiv’s righteous cause – but these folks are far too extreme, even for me. And that’s not an easy task, as I’m someone who will happily self-identify as a hawk or even <gasp!> a neoconservative when it comes to foreign policy.
This hyper-aggressive pro-Ukraine contingent – similarly to its pro-Russian counterpart – is mostly a factor on social media. They’ve made their living posting about the war, gaining notoriety, tens of thousands of followers, and paid subscriptions to their personal publications. Some of those who have earned their bread on the Ukraine war are serious journalists, especially folks like Oz Katerji and Tim Mak, both of whom have reported consistently from the front lines of the conflict. But others are mere hangers-on who are far more active online in social media than they are doing the hard work of war reportage. People like Paul Massaro, Gunther Fehlinger, and Sergej Sumlenny, as well as the more caustically trollish NAFO[1] accounts, fall into this category. Some of their posts are informative or interesting, but many more treat the most serious geopolitical conflict in half a century as something of a spectator sport.
In this geopolitical soccer match, these folks would be the Ukrainian ‘Ultras’ – fans who are literally militant in their support of their squad. And they sure act the part. Some of these accounts celebrate Russian troop deaths, especially when captured on video. Despite the evil of Putin’s war, regular soldiers dying is not something to be cheered; apparently, some of us are still stuck in the days of the Colosseum. They push for arming Ukraine through the inane strategy of “give them everything,” including tactical nuclear weapons (yes, really). I have argued forcefully for greater arms supply to Ukraine, but denuding one’s own arsenal to bare-minimum levels and sending nuclear weapons into a battlespace you don’t control are terrible ideas. These absurd, impractical, and downright awful designs are par for the course in this influential corner of the internet and, as such, they draw the consistent attention and ire of their useful idiot counterparts.
The populist isolationists, perhaps best represented by the former Fox host/conspiracy wacko Tucker Carlson, claim that the extreme views of these pro-Ukraine internet Ultras represent all pro-Ukrainian sentiment. This could not be further from the truth, and it’s why such noxious ideas need to be called out. Which brings us back to the issue of war aims in the context of the Ukrainian counteroffensive.
The Ultra position on this conflict’s eventual endgame is unrealistic beyond belief: they seek nothing less than the total destruction of the Russian Federation as a territorial and political entity. This goes beyond the idea of regime change – ousting Putin and his closest cronies from power and replacing them with some more acceptable alternative – to a future in which Russia does not exist. That supposed utopia would include either the transformation of the Russian Federation into smaller nation-states based on region and ethnicity or the total diminution of Russia as a political power through full demilitarization and other means. Not only are these ideas completely radical, they are impossible to carry out in reality.
Even the least controversial portions of this ambitious program are highly contentious. Take the idea of regime change, for instance. This term got a bad rap after its use in the Iraq War given the subsequent alienation many Americans felt from that conflict as it dragged on, but sometimes regime change is indeed a good policy. It is in American interests for new regimes to control places like Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea, but it matters how that change happens and what is needed to make the change stick. In the case of Russia, this would be a very chancy thing indeed. There are significant internal power struggles and competing bases of strength in various regions and institutions in the country, which may make regime change easier, but also riskier. Any sort of regime change in Russia would open the door to serious internal conflict – up to and including a catastrophic civil war – and could end up with a more belligerent leader than Vladimir Putin in charge. That may seem crazy given Putin’s aggression, but it is not out of the question, as he has strong critics from the ultranationalist right.
With respect to regime change – again, the least contentious of the options pushed by ultra-hawkish Ukraine supporters – the question of trade-offs is key. Would I prefer a Russia without Putin? Absolutely. But how this happens matters a great deal: I would rather have a cowed, weakened Putin in charge of Russia after a defeat in Ukraine than I would have him replaced by a more vigorous, less rational ultranationalist. And I certainly do not think deposing Putin is worth a NATO invasion and occupation of Russia, which it would very likely require.
And that takes us to the next, even more audacious (and ridiculous) suggestion made by the pro-Ukraine hyperpartisans: the so-called “Plan 7D” for Russia. The seven “Ds” in question are demilitarization, denuclearization, decentralization, democratization, decommunization, de-Stalinization, and de-Putinization. These ideas may sound good on paper, but they are both unattainable and deeply misguided. For instance, how would NATO enforce demilitarization or denuclearization on Russia without first utterly destroying it in an existential conflict? Who would enforce these measures and how? How can one eliminate “the cult of military power and expansion,” or change the minds and culture of an entire nation?
Reviewing this ‘plan’, one sees eerie similarities to the war aims of Russia itself. As I’ve written in the past, Putin’s invasion seeks to completely annihilate the sovereignty of Ukraine as a nation and its unique status as a separate culture. Moscow detailed its plans to ‘de-Nazify’ and demilitarize Ukraine and purge it of corruption, both social and political. How is this any different from Plan 7D? That pro-Ukraine strategy seeks to destroy the culture, heritage, society, and politics of the Russian Federation, a nation with hundreds of years of historical existence.[2] It seeks to end Russia as any sort of independent geopolitical entity by controlling its borders, running its internal affairs, and implementing a new national consciousness from without. This is a mirror image of the Russian strategy these pro-Ukraine partisans rightly decry as morally despicable and legally abhorrent. One would think that someone who righteously hates the Russian plan would avoid embracing that same strategy in reverse; unfortunately, when war is turned into sport, these important moral distinctions fade in the face of the baying crowd.
The last – and most ludicrous – of these pro-Ukraine Ultra ideas is one put forth by the aforementioned Gunther Fehlinger, who proposes the total deconstruction of the Russian Federation and its replacement with 41 regional/ethnic statelets. In his “Northern Eurasia 2023” plan (see image at top), Russia itself would cease to exist, yet somehow its constituent parts would be immune to the security problems Russia currently presents. Fehlinger claims this will improve global security, but that is a sentiment entirely out of touch with reality. Still, it has received positive attention, including in major publications. Besides including all of the problems with the ideas discussed above – this plan essentially goes beyond the others, while retaining their myriad issues – one can ask a few pointed questions that explore why this de-nationalization of Russia would be a terrible idea.
What if the people of Russia decide that they don’t want to live in small ethnic/regional republics? Would this ‘solution’ be forced upon them? How, and by whom? Who draws the borders of these 41 new states? Would it be Gunther Fehlinger and his cadre of pro-Ukrainian Ultras? Russia has been situated within very similar borders for centuries, with population migration and ethnic mixing a commonplace occurrence; would these new borders represent the status quo before Muscovite expansion in the 1600s? Before the Sovietization of the Tsarist Empire? How long would these miniature statelets remain independent? If they sought confederation, would that be allowed? What if one statelet conquered another? What about a larger foreign neighbor, like China, invading and annexing one of these weak republics? Would these statelets receive security guarantees from NATO powers, or would they be left to fend for themselves? And, most importantly, who gets the nukes? Russia’s nuclear stockpile is the largest on the planet, and is spread across the country; many of these new nation-states would immediately become nuclear powers. How would that complication be handled?
As you can see, none of these ideas are reasonable, intelligent, thought-through, or even possible. People who style themselves as pro-Ukraine should drop them immediately. War aims are an important discussion, one too critical to be led astray by insane ideas like those described above. These extreme positions – like their counterparts on the pro-Russian side who would sell Kyiv down the river in a heartbeat – have no place in any rational deliberation on this issue. Our aims in this war should be grounded in American national interests, cognizant of the need to deal with other geopolitical worries, and in line with the world of the possible, not the ideal.
The hyper-aggressive ideas promoted by the pro-Ukraine online Ultras are not going to end this war sooner; in fact, they are likely only going to harden Russian resolve if they are picked up more widely. These fantasies of dismembering Russia or denuding it entirely of its geopolitical status play right into the hands of Vladimir Putin, echoing his propaganda about this being a war against the West for Russia’s very existence instead of a bullying invasion of a smaller independent neighbor. The pundits who play into this nonsense and promote it should be marginalized, post-haste. Those of us who want Ukraine to win this war and push the Russian invaders out must focus on reality and dismiss those who choose to deny it in favor of fantasy. The Ultras should let the adults do the talking and keep their tabletop strategy dreams on the RISK board. If not, they risk endangering the pro-Ukraine outcomes they claim to so desire.
[1] NAFO, short for the North Atlantic Fellas Organization, is an online group of pro-Ukraine accounts who consistently promote the Ukrainian message and attack pro-Russian accounts. Much of this is good, but some of it devolves into meaningless trolling.
[2] Yes, the Tsarist Empire, Soviet Union, and modern Russian Federation are all essentially the same nation-state, despite the radical differences between them.
Ukraine winning takes us over the edge of the universe. It’s possible the Russian empire falls apart, it’s possible Putin stays in charge.
Having said that, “Putin in charge” probably also means “Russia is still at war with Ukraine” so that implies Russian troops die until Putin’s gov falls.
What is clear is that we don’t get to pick what happens over the edge of the universe. We need to prepare for Russia falling apart, we also need to prepare for someone worse replacing Putin.Report
What does Russia falling apart look like?
Does this current incarnation of Russia fragment further into quarreling mostly-independent oblasts? Does it get a new strongman to replace Putin? Does it become a not-great-but sincere parliamentary democracy like Iraq? Who’s controlling the nukes in each of these scenarios? Who controls trade policy? I’m not sure that there are any other realistic options than these, and my money would be on Putin getting removed as head of state with varying degrees of gentleness and replaced with a different strongman ruling effectively autocratically with a thin outward veneer of democracy, much as what we see there today.
Most of us are old enough to remember what the Soviet Union falling apart looked like. Promising from a pro-democracy perspective for about a year, and then Boris Yeltsin inevitably fell in the river both literally and figuratively.* And it’s been a kleptocratic autocracy ever since.
Whether it’s fragmentation, decapitation-and-recapitation, or flawed parliamentary democracy, I don’t see how the corruption goes away, I don’t see a government and culture predicated upon a strong rule of law in the manner of western European or North American democracies.
* Former mayors of capital cities named Boris seem to wind up not working out well as heads of national government in the long run.Report
When the USSR fell apart we ended up with 23 or so new countries, many of whom have become NATO members, a few might even be first world now days. I’m counting Poland and the others as “new” countries.
This may have sucked for Russia itself, but a lot of people stopped living under tyranny and oppression.
This was a fine outcome, we shouldn’t fear it happening again.Report
I think in this scenario if the Russian federation fractured you’d end up with a lot of ethnic Russians on the wrong side of new national borders. That’s a recipe for a lot of strife before the dust settles. To give you a sense of how complicated it could potentially be here is an ethnic map of the Russian federation from 2010:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/y6z0zl/ethnic_map_of_russia_2010/
One of the complicated, and more than a little dark, truths about WW1 and WW2 is that western and central Europe ended up with with national boundaries roughly reflecting the linguistic and ethnic compositions, and it’s no mystery how that happened. The western end of the Warsaw Pact countries were mostly able to follow that pattern based on how the boundaries were set post WW2. However the parallel for Russia is not those countries, and is probably more like Yugoslavia.Report
From what I can see, the most realistic goal would be the recovery of all territory seized since the 2022 invasion, with a possible goal of all territory seized since 2014, and then containment of Russia as an aggressor.
Containment in this context would amount to a new Cold War, where we use a combination of diplomatic and economic tools to deny Russia the possibility of territorial expansion and mischief making around the world.
The more wild regime change ideas seem to avoid any realistic grasp of what might come next.Report
Much like 5 decades of data disprove the supply side tax cuts spur excessive growth hokum, data since Korea dispels the myth of “successful regime change being imposed. Those still cheering for it are likely immune to such data of course, but we know well how this turns out.Report
What’s interesting to me is how we as a society haven’t really come to terms with the post Cold War order or formed new structures of political understanding.
By that I mean that the conventional understanding of politics in America that we all grew up with is that Communist regimes were repressive, and capitalist were free.
Repressive capitalist regimes were generally regarded as aberrations and minor exceptions to the rule, the result of backward underdeveloped nations.
But the basic framework was that any society where people could choose among different brands of toothpaste would automatically be a society where people could choose among different brands of politicians.
China and Russia have demolished this assumption. They are examples of modern developed repressive capitalist nations where people are free to choose their toothpaste, but not their government.
The American people haven’t really developed an understanding of how to regard these nations. We see them as sometimes trading partners, sometimes enemies, some sort of “frenemy” status which shifts depending on the subject or interest.Report
2014 is seriously important in terms of containing Russia. Leaving them with it leaves Ukraine vulnerable to all sorts of problems.
Very very true. The problem is there’s a good chance we’ll find out anyway. Not because we force Putin to leave but because he’s betting everything on this and he’s going to lose.Report
Give me a reason why I should give a damn about Ukraine.
It’s in Russia’s sphere of influence. I see no reason to get significantly involved. We already replaced their gov’t. We do stuff like this in our sphere of influence.Report
We have actively invaded a country and claimed it as our own over the objections of its citizens? Really? When?
So you are fine with Russia invading and occupying any of the former Soviet republics they choose? And then? Where do you expect them to stop?Report
With the benefit of historical knowledge, invading Germany and Japan look like the right calls. They fall into the whole “stopping a genocidal expansionistic empire” category.
The various coups we’ve supported retrospectively look less like good calls.
What we’re doing in the Ukraine looks a lot more like “opposing genocidal fascism” than it does anything else. My expectation is it will look ethically fine in a hundred years.Report
In precisely none of those cases did we violate a sovereign nation’s borders with our active military in an actual invasion. Not even close. Nor have we ever claimed those nations are part of the US and have no right to exist freely.
Try againReport
I objected to Iraq. Still do. Precisely because it was based on a lie. Ditto Vietnam.
And as to WW 2 – the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor. Seems to justify the portion of the war fought against Japan. Kind of like Russia actively crossing Ukraine’s borders with active duty military units last year – and with Russians disguised badly as Ukrainian partisans in 2014.
Happy to keep this up as long as you are . . .Report
Panama?Report
I think the issue we’ve lost track of is what Colin Powell famously stated, that the only land we’ve ever sought is enough to bury our dead. Personally I think you have to ignore Manifest Destiny for that formulation to work, but it’s been a reliable principle during the past hundred years. And we’ve had chances.Report
Russia isn’t seeking land to bury its dead. They are seeking to rebuild the Russian empire through reconquest of a bunch of countries they have never viewed as sovereign. The US has not done that. Certainly not since the first world war.
Which is my point to Damon.Report
Yes, I know, but you were stating it poorly, so I jumped in to clarify your point. Which is why what I wrote agreed with you.Report
“Certainly not since the first world war.”
Did you just answer your own question?Report
Our costs are pretty low and the return on investment should be very high.
The number of boots we have on the ground rounds to zero. We’re giving Ukraine our second rate equipment which we made for, but didn’t use in, the war on terror.
Russia has done a lot of nasty things over the years, sometimes to us, and this is a good time to stick it to them. All of their neighbors are afraid of them and many have joined Nato because of that.
Also we learned from WW2 that not opposing a genocidal expansionistic dictator becomes a real problem.
This is a model for how we can do things in the future. These precision arms Ukraine are using needs direct American support in order to function. We tell them the exact location of “whatever” and they punch in the coordinates. If we don’t want them to blow up [something] then we just won’t tell them.Report
Dedollarization: I’ll take “tell us you’re either a delusional krank or a pro-russian troll without saying ‘hey I’m a delusional krank or possibly a Putinista sock puppet!’ for 500 dollars Alex.Report
A curious non-sequitur; I have no idea whatsoever how many doctors exist in America right now. But if one has beef with that number I’d suspect you’d need to take it up with the AMA, not the Fed.
I’m actually observing that your dedollarization nonsense is, in of itself, utter nonsense and betrays your incoherent or malevolent biases simply by being expressed. States are moving away from using the dollar as a reserve currency eh? To what, pray tell? Yuan? Artificially pegged to the dollar and shackled with capital controls. Rubles? Heheh, they might as well put the dough into subway coupons (at least then you might get a sandwich out of the deal). Euros? Any beef you have with Greenbacks would be double that for Euros but with less dynamic economies and more inflation to boot. You can’t do-dollarize into nothing and there’re no alternatives currently.Report
You should check a data source that you’re willing to trust about South America and the yuan. I’m not saying it’s a good long-term plan for them to do so, but there’s more movement than you might expect.Report
Oh I believe it but some states here and there go on “alternatives to the dollar” kicks periodically and always have (and often end up quietly slinking back or spectacularly losing their shirts). That doesn’t make for a global dedollarization trend.Report
Off the dollar to what? Bitcoin? Gold? Most countries want to use their currencies to buy and sell things or to store value and for those purposes the dollar has been and remains the only game in town at the moment. China has a long way to go before they’ll ever have a hope of being a plausible alternative and they’re virtually the only other game in town.Report
Allow me to introduce you to my rare store of value, images of cartoon apes…Report
Just because we pay mercenaries to be our “boots on the ground” doesn’t mean we’re not neck deep in it in other ways.
Yep, and our involvement has never ever had any negative conspectuses 20 years down the road…Report
We are absolutely neck deep in all sorts of ways. We’re the payroll master, the armorer, arms supplier, and (importantly for precision weapons) the IT service.
We’re also a huge cheerleader and have encouraged everyone else to pile on. However they haven’t needed much encouragement. Xenophobic Poland has opened it’s borders to Ukraine’s refugees, “needs Russian fuel to keep it’s economy running” Germany has told Russia to drop dead, neutral Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, and so on.
The US isn’t playing rogue cop here, it is the consensus of all of the first world nations that Putin has gone full genocidal Hit.ler and should be treated as such. The various companies fleeing Russia and giving up on their investments showcases more of the same.
But the amount of blood we’ll spend rounds to zero. Ukrainians (and Russians) are doing the dying here.Report
Ah, so the measure of international meddling is solely measured by how many of the meddler’s countrymen die…..got it.Report
The question should be “how heinous is the involvement?”.
The Ukrainians don’t want to be subjected to genocide so they view our meddling favorably.Report
This isn’t Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Or 1960’s South America.Report
SudetenlandReport
If you want the US to have the incredibly potent area of alliances and client states it has, leading the effort to support a place like Ukraine trying to get out of an opposed sphere of influence is the cost of being in business.
America is doing the geopolitical equivalent of using one finger to catch and push back Russia’s best punch. Its the most productive thing the USA has done for its standing in the world since the Wall fell and its doing it for bargain rate prices.Report
I think this is the much more realistic way to look at it. I’m rooting for the Ukranians but even if this ends in some muddled, emotionally unsatisfactory compromise it would still be a huge geopolitical win. Russia has already been defanged as a conventional military threat for a generation, and all the US really had to do was donate a bunch of dated kit that was sitting around gathering dust.Report
Yup, no denying it. We basically handed off our second string gear and obliterated the military of a rival and the country providing the bodies to do it is GRATEFUL to us. That’s before we even factor in Brent F’s most pertinent point about how it’s doing wonders for our standing.Report
I am assuming the latter part of that word salad is referring to depleted uranium rounds? If so characterizing them as “hot goods” is especially incoherent for you.Report
Its amazing to see real live tankie comments in 2023.
Like, almost word for word what one would have seen in 1956 or 1968.Report
It still boggles my mind that tankies are right wingers now.Report
Tout ce qui est vieux redevient nouveau.Report
Sure, this is a pretty easy position to take. The underlying assumption is that Ukraine will build upon it’s successful defense in 2022 and our role will be to prevent over-reach. And that’s true, that’s what our role will be in that scenario. We can root for Ukrainian breakthroughs and a future settlement on favorable terms won on the battlefield. And right now, that’s kinda the prevailing ‘mood’ as the 2023 Offensive is all potential and hope.
There’s a chance, of course, that the Ukrainian offensive fails and we enter protracted stalemate… in that case, staying the course of materiel and moral support requires little more of us and likely will remain popular.
The more interesting question that should be asked is, How Far Is Too Far In Supporting Ukraine in 2024 if the Russian/Chinese retooling proves real?
Are we mentally prepared to pat ourselves on the back for the ‘low cost’ drubbing of Russia’s military that we inflicted via proxy in ’22 and ’23 but then recognize that the low cost strategy – while good when it worked – doesn’t work any more? That’s when the temptation for escalation will *really* begin. How much is too much in this scenario?
That’s the thing about war… it could go one way, it could go another. I don’t have a crystal ball. We know that offensive operations are harder and more costly than defensive operations, all things being equal. Maybe Russian forces rout; maybe defense in depth with massive artillery support will inflict casualties greater than Ukraine can absorb. Perhaps the offensive, if it stalls, leaves Ukraine exposed to counter-attack; this is a common fact in war.
I think we have a good grip on how much we’re willing to wager on victory or even stalemate; what’s our betting strategy if the war starts to go poorly?Report
The Euros don’t expect the Ukraine to last the year, that’s why their commitments come due in 2024. “Staying the course” is supplying missiles that we don’t have anymore of, to people who use ALL of them in a blind panic.
I suppose I shouldn’t expect elementary strategy out of someone who thought calling in the National Guard to Congress was a good idea, not an elementary-level mistake borne out of panic.
Consider: if there was one shooter in the whole mix… what’s standard military doctrine, if he’s holed up in a room?
Answer: Grenade.
This is not even touching the potential for hostages — or even the “normal destruction” caused by combat soldiers in an urban environment (“tossing tables on their sides for cover”).
Do you really want the Pentagon to have to answer why the halls of congress (a structure not built to withstand modern weaponry) fell over, because someone sent in the National Guard?Report
Fundamental alteration complete. Counteroffensive stalled. America loses the war.
Now What? We stand as a country, abjectly clowned on by spearchuckers, and now defeated by the Russian drunkards.Report