Oh, It’s A Party All Right

Patrick

Patrick is a mid-40 year old geek with an undergraduate degree in mathematics and a master's degree in Information Systems. Nothing he says here has anything to do with the official position of his employer or any other institution.

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139 Responses

  1. Marchmaine says:

    Is the rebuttal that first-past-the-post is a bad electoral model? If so, I agree.

    Do we need to stake a position on ‘Super Delegates’ and other theoretical breaks to a proportional system that can only pick one winner? i.e. Proportionalism works great to proportion a large number of things, but can only work as a pre-vote to set-up a run-off. Which I’d also prefer.

    I’m not entirely sure where to apportion ‘blame’ in either party for obviously bad ways to run primaries. I suspect a big chunk of the issue, is that the RNC and DNC aren’t what we think they are… they don’t really control the State Parties which have their own agendas which, at best, are parallel objectives to the National Parties. And as Michael Cain will often point out, the day-to-day existence of any Political Party in any particular state is peculiar to that state’s regulations. I’ve seen this with various fledgling parties that are interested to try to crack in to the game. It’s harder than it looks… by design.

    Ultimately there are better systems for managing factions within democracies… with different costs/benefits… but the collective action problem is that moving towards any of them requires a sort of abdication of power for the existing system stakeholders (of both parties). Which locks us into the ‘iceberg calving’ system of realignment that the US currently has.Report

    • It’s harder than it looks… by design.

      Some years back the Republicans here in Colorado were in complete disarray while choosing their candidate for governor. The candidate that came out of the regular process was a disaster. A long-time Republican, a former Congressman with good name recognition, ran for governor representing one of the minor parties. He got sufficient votes to get that party reclassified as a major party, with a whole bunch of new rules on their behavior. They couldn’t cut it — too little money, too few people willing to do the scut work, etc. The party dissolved, sat out long enough, then reformed as a minor party again.

      As an interesting side note, the Republican candidate got so few votes that for a while it looked like the Republicans were going to lose their major party standing.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Michael Cain says:

        Ouch. Congratulations, you’ve made it to the Bigs. Wait, what’s all this? The cost of being in the Bigs. Can’t we just keep doing what we’ve been doing? Oh sweet summer child, no.Report

    • PAT in reply to Marchmaine says:

      It is *certainly* the case that state level GOP parties are doing what they can to increase structural control in their states and the result of this is that they are also creating a party where the median elected official is way to the right of the bulk of America.

      You *can* fix this, though.

      They just don’t wanna 🙂Report

      • Philip H in reply to PAT says:

        Nope, they don’t. The Center-Right Democrat currently campaigning for governor here in Mississippi stands to lose the most unpopular GOP incumbent in living memory. Because reelecting a dysfunctional Republican is still preferable to admitting defeat.Report

  2. Saul Degraw says:

    This comments to this post are going to be “fun.” How dare someone correctly analyze everything wrong with the GOP and its supporters? That goes against all dulcet tone civility and gives GOP voters moral agency. This cannot be. GOP voters only react against those woke youngsters going too far with their pronouns and their hair and making the menchilds uncomfortable by calling their pop culture obsessions problematic.

    You are correct. The GOP is the way it is because they want to be this way. It is the last grasp of social fascism. They were broken when the United States elected a black President and broken again in 2012. They can’t stand losing on LBGTQ issues.Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    This is a good analysis, but I’ll add that not only are the leaders of the GOP crafting structures which favor extreme ideologues, they themselves, and the conservative thoughtleaders and influencers and media all join together to amplify and enforce the ideology of extremism and intolerance.

    The public comments from the former and possible future Republican president, or any given GOP Senator, Congressperson, Governor or state legislator are barely distinguishable from the Breitbart comments section.

    In a lot of GOP analyses pieces there is an unspoken desire to take back the party from the voters who comprise it- to abolish the people and elect another.

    Trump isn’t an aberrant outsider, or even the creation of electoral structure- he IS the embodiment of contemporary American Republicanism.Report

  4. Michael Cain says:

    Misthreaded — content deleted.Report

  5. Jaybird says:

    One of the funny side-effects of gerrymandering is that it makes wave elections more possible.

    If you’ve got a 52-48 state and you gerrymander, gerrymander, gerrymander away to make it look like a 45-55 state, all it takes is a handful of people switching, forgetting to vote, and moving in to flip it and flip it *HARD*. And that’s damage that will take years and years to undo, rather than the mere “the pendulum swings” undoing that a balanced plan would give you.

    But part of the eternal problem is that the problems that are solvable in theory are difficult while the ones that are impossible in theory are much, much easier to run on.

    So why not run on the impossible ones? It’s cheaper!Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    Speaking of this, DeSantis to announce suicide run in two weeks or so apparently: https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/15/politics/desantis-trump-presidential-campaign-launch/index.htmlReport

  7. Pinky says:

    I haven’t read the Priebus autopsy, but here’s what I remember of the context. It said a lot of the things mentioned here about, for example, minority outreach and information technology. It got more attention for what it didn’t say but implied, that “growth and opportunity” (i.e. the economic agenda) should be number one, followed by nothing else worth mentioning.

    I agree with a lot of what this article says about structural matters, but the debate over economic versus social issues is a big part of the story, and it wasn’t addressed here.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

      That may be because the GOP is currently tripling down on social issues. It hasn’t actually had a “new” economic idea in about 40 years.Report

      • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

        I think this is about right and the reality Democrats have to keep navigating is that the GOP is closer to the median voter on social issues than anyone wants to admit, save abortion, as long as they stick to playing defense instead of offense. The reality for the GOP is that they have no answers on any kitchen table economic issue of any kind and instead of pivoting to deal with that have chased social conservatism passed the point of diminishing returns, into total conservative media driven insanity, where nothing and no one is too outlandish to be given the time of day.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

          GOP is closer to the median voter on social issues

          I’ll need to see some support for this notion.Report

          • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            The most important part of that quote is probably the “As long as they stick to defense instead of offense.” and I think that it is more correct than not.

            But it depends, also, on what social policy positions one ascribes to the Democratic Party. If it’s the twitter/internet (and right-wing media with slightly less frenetic but enthusiastic agreement from the normal media) position then, yes, the GOP is closer to the voters in what further changes it opposes.

            Of course, the actual Democratic Party positions on social policy are nowhere near where the media, the internet and the GOP wishcast it to be.Report

            • InMD in reply to North says:

              I also said ‘than anyone wants to admit,’ not that they are sitting right on it. Chasing the ever weirder reactionary elements of society is a major unforced error on their side. IMO social (read: Christian) conservatism is basically dead and there is no mass constituency for it anymore. However there is a general ‘I don’t care what you do but leave me and mine the eff alone’ sentiment that the Republicans get the benefit of at times. Indeed I’d say the existence of that sentiment among even the center right is the fruit of liberal victories right up through the legalization of gay marriage.

              We have the opposite problem of being defined by the most radical voices even when poll after poll shows there to be a significant gap between those positions and the average person pulling the lever for a Democrat.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Why would this “Leave me and mine alone” person pull the lever for a party that wants to send state police to your house to rip your kids away if you support their gender identity?Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                This is a super duper compelling point for Extremely Online progressives and no one else. And to the extent it does matter it’s in the context of the local school system making available activist literature suggesting your tom boy daughter might not actually be a female.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Wait, so the state ripping kids away from loving families is compelling only to the extremely online, but a book acknowledging the existence of trans people is vitally important to a “Leave me alone” person?

                Are you really sure this is how the median voter thinks?Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Yes. Especially when ‘a book acknowledging the existence of trans people’ is obviously activist literature saying your tom boy daughter might not actually be a female.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Show me on the doll where the activist book hurt you.

                Seriously, this that sort of soft bigotry where cis people are entitled to respect and the right to stock children’s books with their images but trans people are only accepted if they keep it quiet and only around consenting adults.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

                This is a super duper compelling point for Extremely Online progressives and no one else.

                And all queer people, so congrats on the Republican party permanently losing yet another rapidly growing demographic.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                Yep, that’s what we get when the identarian left wants the Democratic Party to be where they’re at because they think they’re right; the entire right wants to pretend the Democratic Party is defined by the identarian left because they think it’ll make it easier to beat them and ostensibly impartial media actors pretend the Democratic Party is defined by the identarian left because it lets them do their BSDI bull and pretend that both sides are equally nuts.

                It’s like this vast swathe of the electorate from the center out to Bernieville is, basically, invisible. And that is especially since so many of that swathe is lower middle income, minority and also the actual fishin primary voting base of the Democratic Party. I mean that’s how we got the 2020 primary where everyone but the elevator operator lady was astonished how much support Joe Biden’s mild middle left of the road positions drew.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                Agree. The median voter nationally is a white man in his late 50s. I think you could probably approximate the median Democratic voter as a middle aged woman, maybe with a college education but maybe not, that works outside the home. Not journalists on Twitter or the students and professors at Oberlin or wherever else.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to InMD says:

                That guy is me. I think it’s interesting that thinkers on the conservative side of this issue have come to see gender as so malleable and tenuous that children can be so influenced by the mere presence of a book that they will rather swiftly, and somehow without their parents’ knowledge, seek to switch genders. I’m not sure biology works like that.Report

              • InMD in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                As far as I can tell all ‘gender’ means in this context is language and (often regressive) sex based stereotypes, not biology. Which is whatever as far as I’m concerned, right up until people want to start instilling their ideas about it in other people’s children on the tax payer’s dime, up to and including the ability to lie to parents about what they’re doing. That is a live issue in school systems local to me.

                I understand in the unfortunate binary of American politics that gets me characterized as conservative. But please also understand from my perspective I’m the liberal. It isn’t like I am voting for Republicans over this. As far as I’m concerned it’s people arguing with me ostensibly from my left playing the part of evangelicals back in the day asking if it’s really so harmful to have the teacher lead a prayer in the morning. All that would be a problem to me, even absent the issues around minors and medicalization on the extreme end.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to InMD says:

                I really hesitated to use conservative here, but that’s the best I could come up with. I know you’re not a conservative (generally), and I suppose people in the real world have opinions about stuff like this that are all over the map.

                It’s been a few years since my kids have been in grade school, and there was all sorts of squishy stuff being talked about when they were there, but it was mostly about acceptance. Trans stuff wasn’t even on the map back then, and, given the vanishingly small amount of people who can truly claim to be trans, it probably shouldn’t even be there now. What we have is a cable news ginned up controversy that has somehow riled up large numbers of our fellow citizens.Report

              • KenB in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                Part of the challenge is that the “liberal vs conservative” dynamic overtakes more nuanced distinctions — probably if we were to take just the folks here who are open to a conversation instead of name-calling and go through a bunch of scenarios in detail, we wouldn’t be that far off. But we’re all consuming different media and have a different sense of who “out there” is most responsible for the turmoil.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

              That’s the thing.
              if you want to find a “Looney Liberal” you have to pick some extremely online nonelected gadfly.

              If you want to find a “Crazy Conservative” you need look no further than a President, Senator, Congessperson or governor.

              I’d say the median voter is generally tolerant and agnostic on social views, preferring a live and let live stance.

              As evidence, look at how the anti-LGBTQ hysteria was obliged to trot out the old “They’re coming for YOUR CHILDREN!” stuff.

              They couldn’t say “That Disney film has a queer in it!” because most people just don’t care.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                if you want to find a “Looney Liberal” you have to pick some extremely online nonelected gadfly.

                AOC destroyed 10k jobs in her own district and then took a victory lap.

                However I agree, she’s not a looney liberal, she’s mainstream.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Job destruction is economic policy, not social policy, so your example is a glaring dud, Dark, sorry.Report

              • Philip H in reply to North says:

                And if he’s referring to the Amazon Warehouse – that was a decision by local politicians, not AOC. She may have championed a certain side of the cause, but at the end of the day she has no real influence on that decision.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Not the warehouse, the HQ. And AOC as champion and leading the public charge doesn’t give her a vote but it does give her influence.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                It’s what I vote on.Report

              • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sure, and what infuriates me personally is that even the supposedly “liberal” media does this too. For instance: Biden’s administration put out a policy on title IX addressing Trans folks in sports. Other than the genuine internet and trans left melting down in fury over it you’d think it never happened.Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

              Ordinary Times might as well add a subtitle of middle-aged dudes freaked out about the kids these days and no longer being with it.Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                I’m technically not even middle aged yet! Just a family man trying to work and raise kids. Not to make it overly personal, but based on my understanding of commenter backgrounds, all of these kinds of debates are way more abstract for you than they are for me.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

                From an 11/22 poll on Marijuana:

                11/2022 Pew poll:
                59% think it should be legal for any use
                30 % think it should be legal for medical use
                10 % think it should be illegal

                folks 65+
                46% think it should be legal for any use
                40 % think it should be legal for medical use
                12 % think it should be illegal

                Among Republicans:
                45% think it should be legal for any use
                39 % think it should be legal for medical use
                15 % think it should be illegal

                Among Republicans over 65, just 31% think it should be legal for any use.
                For Republicans over 75, that drops to just 18%

                Yet, the GOP politicians are still strongly against it. Ross D just came out with a pucker lip defense of keeping marijuana legalReport

              • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                To be fair, the GOP -also- wants pot illegal because pot dedicated legalization parties strip several % points off the Democratic voting constituency. That was a serious problem in MN (they finally are legalizing it, thank Goodness.). So it’s partially cynical realpolitic rather than behind the timeism.Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                Look, maybe there are places where marijuana prohibition is still something Republicans are fighting hard for, and if so I’d agree, that’s stupid and out of step. However the salience of marijuana prohibition is also probably lower than ever given that even in conservative jurisdictions the rule these days tends to be diversion since they don’t feel like paying what it costs to incarcerate people over it.

                What I am saying is there are enough issues where they are not totally out of step with public opinion and it’s not some kind of betrayal to acknowledge that. Indeed I’d say reflecting some of those sentiments is kind of all they have left to try to get to their real goal, cutting taxes for the rich and punching holes in the social safety net.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                It’s not the Republicans or the Democrats. It’s the DEA.

                Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yea I mean, it’s ridiculous at this point that the federal government won’t just throw in the towel. But I also remember being shown that Ronald Reagan era cartoons to the rescue thing when I was a kid and recognize that we are on a totally different planet culturally and legally. Hech, I may or may not have had my own run in with the county police over the issue back in the day, and I’m 100% sure my son is going to find it unbelievable that such a thing happened by the time he is an adult, should I ever tell him about it.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

          I do not think the GOP is closer to the median voter on social issues even if you have your underwear in a twist regarding the chronically online and their gender pronouns and hair color.

          Americans overwhelmingly support abortion rights and access. There is nothing in the post Dobbs universe which suggests otherwise. Yet the GOP continues with their path towards total bans. Support for same-sex marriage is also a majority.Report

          • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            This is where I suggest reading the comment, where I said ‘closer…than anyone wants to admit, save abortion, as long as they stick to playing defense instead of offense.’

            I understand you may disagree, but let’s at least disagree with what I actually wrote!Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            I’ll readily admit that the Post-Dobbs Republican Messaging has been a trainwreck – which is why silliness like ‘near total bans’ keep living on the left-o-sphere.

            And not to put words in InMD’s combox, but the Rhetoric of “Near Total Bans” is going to wreck the Dem/Rep positions in ways I predicted years ago… once voters live with easy access to abortion with various legal guardrails the issue will evaporate. Weirdly the R’s will claim victory for an Abortion on Demand regime that is in line with the EU. Lindsay Graham is almost giddy with excitement at legalizing Abortion while claiming it as a Pro-Life victory!

            For example, North Carolina just TODAY overrode the Governor’s Veto with a Republican supermajority… Reuters also echo’s the ‘near total ban’ nonsense… what’s the practical effect we ask?
            https://www.reuters.com/world/us/north-carolina-lawmakers-vote-overriding-veto-12-week-abortion-ban-2023-05-16/

            A ‘near total ban’ [sic] *after* 12-weeks (1st trimester) plus Rape/Incest (20)/Viability (24) and Health of the Mother (40) provisions. Plus guaranteed access to chemical abortions with medical oversight. (Incidentally, the same bill also includes funding for foster and childcare as well as paid parental leave.)

            According to CDC statistics, 93.2% of all abortions – as practiced – will still be legal in North Carolina… rising likely to 95%+ as date shifting to the new regulations occurs. And, since we don’t have good statistics under the current regulations on what % of abortions between 13-24 weeks are for Medical/Viability reasons, there’s a good chance that number will be close to 98% legal (i.e. 18-24 weeks is a common window for viability issues which would be considered legal).

            Other than a weirdly perceived political chastisement… If the Left were to implement these laws it would be a complete and total victory for abortion.
            Ironically, it would probably pass for the Safe/Legal if not exactly Rare position of the Left of yore.

            To the extent that Team Red voters really understand the statistics of their ‘policy victories’… if this really is the Team Red option? This is WAY closer to the median voter than the Left’s hyperventilating about ‘Near Total Bans’.

            It is genuinely unclear to me if Team Red is doing this eyes-wide-open or Team Red will simply wake up in three years to Safe/Legal/Invisible and call it a day.

            coda: Even if you want to point me to 6-week bans… it might surprise you to learn that 45.5% of all abortions happen in that window (again, using ‘neutral’ CDC data).Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine says:

              “Messaging”.

              The problem is merely “messaging”.

              We have a flood of horror stories of doctors refusing to treat pregnant women for fear of arrest, at least one hospital shutting its OB-Gyn section entirely, and we’re told that the problem is…messaging.

              You caught the car.
              You own it.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Dude, I literally told you above what the ‘Car’ is.

                Y’all are in denial as to what the ‘Car’ is. The squishy middle has been asking for exactly this ‘Car’ since I became aware of the issue and could look-up the data.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Marchmaine says:

                The squishy middle is most certainly not asking for total bans at 6 weeks with no exceptions. The squishy middle is most certainly not asking for total bans with no exceptions – both of which are real laws in some places and being hotly debated in state legislatures elsewhere. The squishy middle supports bans after 15 weeks with robust health and rape exceptions – which is rapidly devolving to be only available in blue states.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H says:

                No, the squishy middle broadly supports first Trimester abortion. The squishy middle is also unclear how many weeks are in a trimester. 🙂 Which results in general support from 12-16 weeks depending on wording. You should team up with Lindsay Graham, he was promoting 15-weeks!

                But yes, I agree with you that changing the period to 6-weeks would indeed bleed support from the squishy middle – that’s why I brought it up in a coda… but it’s not relevant to my overall wall-of-text (TM).Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Since Republicans can not imagine most Americans disagreeing themselves on this issue or really any issue, they have to attribute any failure to persuade as a messaging problem rather than people thinking that they are wrong.Report

            • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

              I think it’s a wedge issue against the GOP until proven otherwise. Maybe if the pro life movement ends up satisfied with bans in name only, and Republicans feel the checks they never thought would have to be cashed due to Roe have been, the wind gets taken out of the issue.

              On the other hand as long as the GOP is selling what they themselves characterize as bans, and the laws result in a regular stream of anecdotes about women denied non-controversial abortions, or disruptions to healthcare that no one really associates with abortion, I think they can expect to take hits for it.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

                I’m conflicted on whether it’s actually a scissors issue (in the SSC sense)… my contention is that both sides are vested in a narrative that ‘says’ the laws are ‘near total bans’ for completely opposite reasons.

                But if you think about it, the Mid-Atlantic Edward R. Murrow viewpoint from nowhere would be reporting:

                Today legislators in NC successfully protected Legal Abortion for the first Trimester; polls show this is popular with the public and the period where 95% of all abortions occur. The legislators also provided extensions for cases of Rape/Incest* and fetal abnormalities which sadly result in non-viable pregnancies. In all phases of pregnancy, the life of the mother is paramount and protected. The law also protects chemical abortions, now accounting for almost 50% of first trimester abortions, and makes them safer requiring medical supervision and follow-up. It’s a big day for abortion supporters.

                I mean, I’m tempted to write a screwtape letter saying, THIS, this is how you get your opponents to legalize abortion *and* get you out of the ideological pickle of chemical abortions without medical supervision *and* take credit for not passing the law that is popular with mids, but not your ideological base.

                *purely in passing… ever notice how ‘incest’ is always mentioned with Rape as if it’s an actual category — but it’s just a euphemism for child-abuse/rape. There’s no actual ‘edge’ category where we’re setting aside abortion for siblings who decide to marry or, well, simply fornicate. It’s just rape – except we don’t want to say child rape by a relative. Just an observation how 1970’s euphemism strangely get’s codified in our ‘discourse’Report

              • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

                I hear what you’re saying on the characterization, but this also kind of gets into my main legal reasoning of why Dobbs was decided incorrectly, even if one also thinks Roe was wrong the day it was written. No matter what SCOTUS says we can’t just pretend it never happened and debate it on those terms. I understand why a pro life person would disagree with that viewpoint but it’s natural to look at something taken away very differently than something that was never had, and if you want to try and do it then man do you have to just knock it out of the park convincing the skeptics.

                I also think that’s why the rhetoric at this particular moment still sounds like what you’d expect in the 70s. That’s when Roe was decided and that’s where the talking points froze, even if time and technology kept marching on.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Marchmaine says:

              I…think you misread that article, Marchmaine. Or possibly it’s just poorly written.

              The near-total bans that the article talking about is a reference by Guttmacher Institute, and they aren’t talking about North Carolina.

              I’m not sure exactly what 14 states they are talking about currently, but here’s January, where it was 12 states that they said had ‘near-total bans’:
              https://www.guttmacher.org/2023/01/six-months-post-roe-24-us-states-have-banned-abortion-or-are-likely-do-so-roundup

              You will notice they’re pretty careful about what a near total ban is, and don’t even include Georgia’s _six-week_ ban in that list, which certainly qualifies as near total in any rational world, as that functionally gives someone two weeks got get an abortion after realizing they are pregnant…assuming they have a perfectly regular cycle. I’m fairly certain they aren’t including a 12-week ban suddenly.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to DavidTC says:

                I see what you’re saying about the Reuter’s article referencing Guttmacher… my search was on ‘near total bans’ and google lights up with NC topping the list owing to the recency of the NC veto override. For topics like this, I always try to pick the most ‘benign’ liberal source.

                Within the article itself we see the dynamic I’m illustrating:

                Republican lawmakers (in NC) are attempting to take a ‘popularist’ position (again, I’m unsure to what extent Red Voters fully understand what this means), while Democratic opponents are painting it as “devastatingly cruel” and said it would force women into seeking illegal abortions.”

                So my 3 points in reference to this would be
                1. The narrative of any restriction is ‘near total bans’ and ‘devastatingly cruel’ and ‘Illegal abortions’
                2. My coda reference is factually pointing out that even 6-week bans would only ban 50% of abortions (as currently practiced today) – I point it out because I’m certain from the ‘discourse’ that people assume 6-weeks = virtually 0% abortions, or, ‘A near total ban’.
                3. Of the states that have an actual ‘near total ban’ all of them (I think) are based on Trigger laws.

                Here’s a simple visual to see how they correlate:
                https://www.axios.com/2021/10/31/roe-v-wade-repeal-supreme-court-texas-mississippi

                Expanding on point #3, factually I’m fine pointing to those 13 states… it’s a true statement. My political commentary on those states is:
                1. Lawmakers passing laws shielded by Roe didn’t have to deal with the politics of passing those laws.
                2. In those states I’m actually sympathetic to charges that the laws are bad laws… they *are* in some important ways bad laws because they are show-pony laws and the legislators should be held accountable.
                2.a. A couple (I forget which) aren’t even show-pony laws, they are just the laws on the books pre-Roe. I’d expect them to be updated by a responsible Pro-Life legislature in any case.
                3. Before we can assess where the squishy middle sits in those states, we’ll have to see how they fare in an election cycle or two… most of the show-pony laws are already seeing amendments, at least for Rape/Child-abuse and Health. In 2-3 years I expect we’ll have meat to chew on.
                4. Many of those states have already passed legislation updating the laws, esp. regarding Rape/Child Abuse and Life of the mother.

                Remember, my point isn’t that every single state has exactly the right laws regarding abortion. I’m commenting on the strange dynamic where a Safe/Legal Pro-Abortion regime* like NC is always and everywhere categorized as ‘devastatingly cruel’. My original post also wonders whether the 12-week (or even 6-week) positions being advocated on the Pro-Life side are being done so as Popularist Positions *or* just believing the False Narratives of *both* sides.

                *Not endorsing NC approach as ‘good Pro-life’ policy either.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

          I think this is about right and the reality Democrats have to keep navigating is that the GOP is closer to the median voter on social issues than anyone wants to admit, save abortion, as long as they stick to playing defense instead of offense.

          Yes, congratulations, the GOP is mostly good at expressing vague platitudes for social issues, but the thing is, so are the Dems.

          In fact, the Dems are _better_ at positions of vague support and align better with society, because the GOP is basically sitting three decades in the past, and continuing to move backwards, which means it becomes more and move obvious that some of things it says are, uh, rather outdated.

          And, of course, ‘vaguely saying supportive things that don’t really offend anyone’ isn’t really how politics works, it doesn’t get voters, and hasn’t ever been a failure mode for any political party until Trump showed up and was unable to do it as president and then the entire Republican party went masks off.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        Maybe I’m considering too high a level here, but there are no new economic ideas.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

        Say what you will about Marxist Analysis, it’s reborn every generation.Report

    • Patrick in reply to Pinky says:

      My brother in Christ, currently… in this year of Our Lord Two Thousand Twenty Three…

      The GOP controls (legislature & governorship) the following 22 states:

      Idaho
      Montana
      Utah
      Wyoming
      Alaska
      North Dakota
      South Dakota
      Iowa
      Missouri
      Arkansas
      Oklahoma
      Texas
      Tennessee
      Mississippi
      Alabama
      Georgia
      South Carolina
      Florida
      Indiana
      Ohio
      West Virginia
      New Hampshire

      In an almost 100% 1-1 mapping (adding Arizona, taking out Alaska) those states have introduced, this year, literally hundreds of bills targeting trans people *alone*, and all of them except Alaska have banned healthcare for trans folks under 18 (most of them have, in the works, a bill to expand that ban to adults, if the existing law didn’t already do so).

      https://www.hrc.org/resources/attacks-on-gender-affirming-care-by-state-map

      In 2022, 563 bills were introduced nationwide just about CRT, more than half of them passed, and every state in this list passed one (note that in general fewer than half of bills enrolled on *all* topics get all the way into law).

      Almost all of these states have an outright ban on abortion (Florida’s ban starts at 15 weeks, Utah’s at 18, North Dakota and Georgia at 6 weeks, everyone else has a conception ban except Alaska).

      You want to focus on economics? Maybe talk to the party. They don’t.

      I’m not obligated to pretend otherwise.Report

      • InMD in reply to Patrick says:

        Do you really think sex changes for minors and telling students in public schools that punctuality is white supremacy are winning issues with the mass public?

        I’d say those are exactly the kind of things the Republicans rely on a small number of well placed, vaguely D aligned people and interest groups to trumpet as loudly as they can.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

          Who is trumpeting sex changes for minors? Best I can tell the GOP is using that strawman to actively oppress trans people – and now their parents and doctors in several states.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

          Towit:

          Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Wednesday signed into law new restrictions on gender-affirming treatments for minors, drag shows, bathroom usage and which pronouns can be used in school, the latest front in the Republican leader’s ongoing cultural battles.

          The package of legislation was a priority for DeSantis, who has already elevated these efforts in political speeches across the country as he marches toward an expected presidential campaign in the coming days.

          “We are going to remain a refuge of sanity and a citadel of normalcy, and kids should have an upbringing that reflects that,” DeSantis said.

          LGBTQ advocates in the state immediately criticized the legislation as a larger effort to erase them from Florida schools and society.

          “DeSantis has just signed into law the largest slate of anti-LGBTQ bills in one legislative session in the state’s history,” said Joe Saunders, senior political director of Equality Florida. “This is an all-out attack on freedom.”

          https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/17/politics/desantis-signs-anti-trans-bill/index.htmlReport

          • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

            As I’ve said before, I’m not really interested in laws that seem like they’re going to run into serious constitutional problems.Report

            • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

              They would have to get out of Florida state courts first and then last all the federalist society approved judges on the federal bench and then SCOTUS which, ya know, just threw our Roe.I have zero beliefs the courts will keep saving us.Report

        • Patrick in reply to InMD says:

          “Do you really think sex changes for minors and telling students in public schools that punctuality is white supremacy are winning issues with the mass public?”

          I think pretending that those are things that are accurate characterizations of what is going on is a winning issue with some folks, sure. For the GOP.

          I don’t think those are even close to the reality on the ground versions of what is happening in either of those cases, though.

          I’d say “find me one example of someone saying ‘punctuality is white supremacy’ but I’m sure some dork somewhere said something like that.

          It does not mean that DEI efforts across the country have bullet points that say ‘punctuality is white supremacy’, which of course is bananas, but anyone who is actually paying attention to what is going on in schools already knows this isn’t what is happening and it’s bananas to pretend it is.

          Literally nobody is suggesting there should be quick and easy access to sex changes for minors, you bigoted, transphobic jackass.Report

          • InMD in reply to Patrick says:

            Heh, so the silly stuff made it all the way to the the Smithsonian, but it’s totally not happening in schools? Sure, ok.

            For the end though, I think it is productive that you at least spoke plainly and without euphemism about the goal, sex changes for minors, even if you had to (totally unnecessarily and incorrectly by the way) include some ad hominem. That’s the first step to having a real conversation on what public policy should be on such a fraught subject.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

              That’s the first step to having a real conversation on what public policy should be on such a fraught subject.

              And by ‘a real conversation’, you mean ‘banning it immediately’.

              And while we’re at it, what’s the public policy on heart bypass surgeries? I don’t recall society ever discussing whether people should be allowed to have those or not, and maybe we should.

              I think the best way to do that is propose a bunch of laws to immediately ban those.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

              “Heh, so the silly stuff made it all the way to the the Smithsonian, but it’s totally not happening in schools? Sure, ok.”

              Do… do you think public schools base their curriculum on what the Smithsonian says…?Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                My district is conducting an ongoing equity audit by Ibram X. Kendi at taxpayer expense. I am not sure why I would expect anything more intelligent to come out of that.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I hope I’m not being petty after you insulted my reading comprehension, but that’s now that InMD said. He’s using the presence of this stuff at the Smithsonian as a measure of how common it is.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

                (typing ability lags behind reading comprehension: that was supposed to be “that’s not what InMD said”)Report

            • Patrick in reply to InMD says:

              “Heh, so the silly stuff made it all the way to the the Smithsonian, but it’s totally not happening in schools? Sure, ok.”

              You know, your local school district probably has all of their meetings online. You could actually go see what they’re doing instead of relying upon fourth person accounts of something that’s allegedly happening everywhere all the time.

              Heck, for all I know your local district is loony tunes. You could just post that info and make your case on the specific district in question. You’re not doing that why?

              “For the end though, I think it is productive that you at least spoke plainly and without euphemism about the goal, sex changes for minors, even if you had to (totally unnecessarily and incorrectly by the way) include some ad hominem.”

              Let me put this as bluntly as I can.

              “Sex changes for minors” is not “the goal”.

              You saying that it is, is exactly why you get the (entirely accurate) pejorative.

              And… to be pedantic, it’s not an ad hominem. An ad hominem is an attempt to say that because someone is bad, their argument is wrong. That’s not what I’m doing. I’m just saying on this topic you’re acting like a bigoted transphobe. Because you are. Hey, maybe that’s just ignorance on your part, that’s correctable, but first you have to show that you want to learn something and starting off by mischaracterizing what’s going on doesn’t lead me to believe you’re actually interested in learning something. But maybe I’m wrong! I’ll take it back if I am.

              The **actual goal** is that medical doctors and families can make medical decisions appropriate for their child. A small percentage of people are trans. Nobody is suggesting sex change operations should be handed out to children willy-nilly, that’s implicitly what you’re saying and it’s… just a lie.

              Like literally thousands of other medical decisions, all of which are made by people in consultation with doctors, and almost none of which are the business of anybody who isn’t either the patient or the doctor, or the patient’s guardian.

              Now, you want to speak “plainly and without euphemism” about *that* goal, go right ahead.

              Let’s start with you telling me which classes of medical decisions should be made by the state and not by parents and doctors.Report

              • InMD in reply to Patrick says:

                I am aware of enough issues in my local district to have concerns, which are shared by many. I don’t have to prove that and I don’t think anyone has to risk identifying themselves on OT more than they are comfortable doing.

                Anyway my personal preference is and always has been to keep myself and the government out of private family medical decision making. But when public institutions, including schools endorse ‘gender identity’ as part of their curriculum (as my district does) as a real, factual thing, not just a personal belief system, they are also endorsing a path to hormonal and potentially surgical treatments with irreversible, major life altering consequences. I am not personally sure I believe a minor can consent to that under any circumstances or even that a parent can on their behalf. The health systems that I hold in highest regard are increasingly on a path suggesting that they probably can’t, and that these sorts of interventions need to be treated as experimental, if done at all.

                Now, all of that said, my inclination is still to leave it alone and not use the blunt hammer of legislation, particularly when it’s combined with a bunch of other constitutionally suspect provisions. But if you think schools need to have readings to their captive audience of the taxpayers’ children about Jazz Jennings or gender unicorns or whatever else, that paint this as a happy, low stakes game, when you know very well that the next step might be using cancer drugs off label to block puberty or eventually at a certain point removing healthy tissue for cosmetic reasons, well, that isn’t just private medical decision making anymore. Nor is it hard to see why a bunch of regular people would end up on the side of the reactionary right given how incredibly sensitive such a thing is.

                Bottom line is if you want it to be a private medical decision then keep it private, and I’ll be happy to go about my business not caring. But if you want it to be public, endorsed by public institutions, the public will demand a say.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Its amazing to see how you glide from “Lets all just live and let live” to “A parent is allowing their child to use a different pronoun and get temporary puberty blockers? This is totally my business and I disapprove!”

                You might have a case if you could present it as a form of child abuse, but you haven’t even bothered with that, and a good thing too, since almost all the people involved agree no one is being abused.

                So all you have left is “I disagree with it and they’re teaching in schools that its OK! Even though I personally disagree with it!”

                This is, precisely what bigotry entails.
                You would never, for a moment, tolerate this sort of thing if the shoe was on the other foot.

                And the thing is, no one is even demanding that you agree with it. Just asking that you y’know, agree to live and let live.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Wrong. I don’t care what private medical decisions families make. I care what public institutions officially endorse, and they have no more business endorsing gender identity than they do transubstantiation or the Buddha’s 7 paths to enlightenment. That’s especially the case when gender identity says people might need hormonal treatments and cosmetic surgeries to be their fully realized selves.

                So if people want to do it with their children, I may disagree, but that’s no more of my business than a Jewish family having their son circumcised. I don’t think the state should ban circumcision, and certainly could never ban Jewish boys going to public school because of it. But the school cannot make the case that the covenant between God and Abraham is a factually accurate occurrence that they too must believe in.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                This right here is bigotry, exemplified:
                “they have no more business endorsing gender identity…”

                You’re telling us that cis-hetero norms are just the invisible default, while trans or gay norms are the deviation which must not be taught.

                The analogy you make is instructive in this regard- you equate teaching legitimacy of trans people as akin to teaching religion, i.e., an entirely unsubstantiated belief.

                Again, no one is asking you or your children to do anything, other than accept other people as they wish to be accepted.
                Not to believe in transubstantiation, but to accept that it is a legitimate belief and those who practice which must be tolerated.

                Once again, conservatives would not accept living under their own rules, if the case were reversed.

                Imagine Governor Newsom asking the California Dept of Family services to remove children from parents who teach them transubstantiation.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

                But when public institutions, including schools endorse ‘gender identity’ as part of their curriculum (as my district does) as a real, factual thing, not just a personal belief system

                See, right here is a problem with people like this: They literally cannot understand that all groupings that humans use and identify as are social constructs and are not a ‘real factual thing’. With some of them, like the literal color of someone’s skin, you may be able to _measure_ something factual, but the idea of sorting those measurements into groups and how they are sorted is entirely social.

                when you know very well that the next step might be using cancer drugs off label to block puberty or eventually at a certain point removing healthy tissue for cosmetic reasons, well, that isn’t just private medical decision making anymore

                Hey, what other medical situations do you have issues with informing kids about the existence of, just in case it turns out they recognize that in themselves and go to a doctor who agrees and get treated for that?

                I’ve always been suspicious of telling kids the symptoms of diabetes.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                “But when public institutions, including schools endorse ‘gender identity’ as part of their curriculum (as my district does) as a real, factual thing, not just a personal belief system…”

                What if we replace ‘gender identity’ with ‘kindness is good’?
                Or ‘sharing is good’?
                Or ‘hitting is wrong’?
                None of those are “real factual things” if we are drawing a delineation between “real factual things” and “personal belief systems”. Because as much as we might say, “Well, sure, but EVERYONE holds that personal belief system so it isn’t really personal it is universal,” well… no… that’s not true.

                The issue isn’t schools promoting certain belief systems. Schools have always done that and we want schools to do that. The issue is that some schools aren’t promoting YOUR belief system.

                If you can acknowledge that, we can have a conversation.

                But if your stance is that everything you support is a “real factual thing” and everything you don’t is merely a “personal belief system” then there is no room for any discussion.

                Do you think schools should have rules such as “No hitting” and “No bullying”? If so… you support schools endorsing belief systems.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                I think gay reeducation camps are awful. And yet, I wouldn’t support outlawing them merely as an idea or concept.

                I would consider outlawing specific practices though would need to dig into the details.

                That said… I fully *support* schools endorsing belief systems. I’m a teacher. It’s what I do every day! Let’s just not pretend like only one side wants to do it.

                This is the same as “Schools should not indoctrinate!” We *want* schools to indoctrinate… we just want them to indoctrinate our own ideas.

                I believe it was John Dewey who mused, “Isn’t it interesting that Russian schools produce so many communists and American schools so many capitalists?”

                It’s not because one group was indoctrinating and one wasn’t. Both were. We just generally agreed with one side.Report

              • KenB in reply to Kazzy says:

                “The issue is that some schools aren’t promoting YOUR belief system”

                No, the issue is that these schools are promoting a belief system that is not widely shared in the community, based on an ideology of very recent vintage and pushed by people who haven’t spent 10 seconds thinking about larger ramifications.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

                The “belief system” that the schools are promoting is that we should accept others who are different and this chuffs you.Report

              • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Nope, not even close. At best this is motte and bailey, at worst your complete failure to understand the points of contention.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

                That’s exactly, precisely, what the schools are advocating.
                That trans people are our equals.

                No one is demanding you like transexualism, or believe anything in particular about it. You are free to condemn it as something deviant or sinful or whatever.

                But schools ask that we accept these people and afford them dignity.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to KenB says:

                “…not widely shared in the community…”

                Well, that remains to be seen, no?

                You’re always going to get louder people in opposition to what is happening than in support.

                But, still… you acknowledge that the issue isn’t IF we should promote belief systems, but which belief systems we should be promoting. I can get into that.

                Pretending that schools weren’t promoting belief systems until NOW is just silliness.Report

              • KenB in reply to Kazzy says:

                “Pretending that schools weren’t promoting belief systems until NOW is just silliness.”

                Neither InMD nor I were doing that. Public institutions, especially those funded by obligatory taxes, have a responsibility to be maximally accommodating to people’s beliefs. Any time a public institution is appealing to a sectarian concern, there will be understandable blowback.

                “Well, that remains to be seen, no?
                You’re always going to get louder people in opposition to what is happening than in support.”

                Well there are polls and other ways for the public to provide feedback. This starts to get into the weeds of what exactly the school is doing/teaching and where exactly it’s located. But if you agree that public schools should be sensitive to public opinion and not just do what a given teacher or administration or educational group thinks is “right”, then we may not be far apart.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to KenB says:

                Well, InMD said: “But when public institutions, including schools endorse ‘gender identity’ as part of their curriculum (as my district does) as a real, factual thing, not just a personal belief system…”

                The personal belief IS “gender identity is a real, factual thing.” His argument is that schools should instead be saying “the idea of gender identity is a personal belief system” and from there they should abandon it because there is no room for personal belief systems in public education, only “real factual things.”

                “But if you agree that public schools should be sensitive to public opinion and not just do what a given teacher or administration or educational group thinks is “right”, then we may not be far apart.”

                As for this… well… it depends. Both matter but the extent to which each matters depends on a lot of things.

                We select educational leaders through a variety of mechanisms with varying degrees of public input. School boards are typically elected and they select superintendents, often times with some direct involvement of the public in that process. From there, principals and vice principals are hired and then teachers and on down the line, with less and less public involvement in those granular decisions. Then you have state leadership which makes certain determinations about curriculum and practices, pedagogy and methodology, often with input from various groups (also, let’s not act like an ‘education group’ is not a part of ‘the public’). Often times, though not always, these are people who have pretty high levels of expertise within the field. It does not make them infallible — as leaders or as people — but there is lots of data and research behind most of these decisions.

                The current trend is that locals should have full veto power over any and every decision if they disagree with it. That would quickly devolve into madness if we actually took that to it’s logical conclusion. Further, it is not how damn near any other governmental institution works. How often are we told that the public should not second guess the police because we don’t understand what their job entails? Should the FDA base their findings on what drugs are safe to use and how based on public opinion? Etc.

                So, yea, sure we can say public opinion matters but that really doesn’t get us very far because we are not saying if, when, and how it matters.

                “Any time a public institution is appealing to a sectarian concern, there will be understandable blowback.”
                And how often do we expect the public institution to give into that blowback?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to KenB says:

                “Your school currently denigrates the belief systems of two major religions.”

                You know nothing about my school or what we do here.

                Pull your head out of your ass.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

              You know, I’m too lazy to look it up, and since this is you obvious think it’s a major issue you surely know roughly, so I thought I’d ask: Roughly how what percentage of children a year do you think start hormone blockers or hormone because they are trans?Report

          • North in reply to Patrick says:

            Can we ease up on the heat of this a little? It’s not helping though I grant absolute sweeping statements don’t help the discussion either way.

            With regards to sex change for minors; the Europeans, for an example, are reining back access to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for minors from their previous baselines based on a lot of, what seems to me, pretty rational scientific evaluation. That is being praised on some sides and decried on others. So, while saying someone is advocating for quick, easy, access to sex changes for minors is over the top it’s fair to say that no small number of trans advocates think it should be easier and quicker for minors to access sex changes than it is now.

            But, yes, absolutely the right is using those molehills and is blowing them up into ridiculous strawmen about trans issues. Jamie Reed and Washington University Transgender Center in St. Louis leaps swiftly to mind to say nothing about their blazing hypocrisy about parents providing gender affirming care to their children after they spent years howling that the “gummint” would take parents kids away if they so much as voiced doubt about their children’s Trans status.

            OTOH InMD, ya gotta admit that the worst DEI nonsense has been confined, by and large, to the private and non-profit sphere. It’s a pretty tough sledding to find Democratic politicians or state officials parroting the extreme and bone headed versions of DEI stuff.Report

            • Pat in reply to North says:

              Man, these guys have made, or want to make me a felon in half the states in the country…

              … but worse they want my kid to go back to not having therapy and being stuck with clinical depression for literally forever…

              … because some political analyst thinks some normie suburban housewives might be swayed to vote for them in the midterms.

              This *IS* me dialing it back. You have no idea how dialed back this is.Report

              • North in reply to Pat says:

                I sympathize, it’s awful, but I’m in my forties now and can think of not a single time the angry righteous vanguard roaring “eff you bigot/sexist/racist/homophobe/etc…” has successfully swept a policy debate in this country, even when they were entirely righteous. Not once. And for all the trans people I know I really want us to win for them.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to North says:

                And for all the trans people I know I really want us to win for them.

                Then maybe don’t uncritically repeat things that you’ve read in the media, because large sections of the media are incredibly transphobic.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to North says:

                Maybe so but asking someone to think of everything as a policy debate when that “someone” is a parent and the “policy” being “debated” is their child’s general right to exist… that’s a big frickin’ ask, man.

                “We’re just debating policy” is all fine and dandy when you are only impacted by the policy in some sort of abstract way. When it is legitimately a matter of life and death, we’re doing more than debating policy.

                Further, Patrick has more than proven himself capable of making sober policy arguments within the right venue.

                This ain’t that. InMD has shown time and time again that his “I’m just a concerned citizen” shtick is really just hard-nosed bigotry. His mind won’t be changed, here or elsewhere. So I give Patrick no shade or pushback for speaking his mind as a parent desperately concerned about his child’s well-being and calling out the people who can flippantly push lies and hate.

                It’s why I had to take the same approach with this same person on conversations about schools. He wanted to turn the work I do… the work I’ve spent my entire adult life doing… the work I pour blood sweat and tears into… the work I love doing… the work I do for kids and families, in my classroom and beyond… into a, “Well, are you SURE you really care about kids if you’re going to read books like that to them?” Fuck that.

                He gets to act calm and sober because these things don’t actually matter to him beyond being ideas he does or does not support. Those of us who are at risk of having things we care so deeply about doing and doing well and doing on behalf of others into crimes? Yea… hard to remain calm and sober and ‘debate policy’ when that is the ground WE are standing on.

                I *LOVE* my job. A job damn near no one else here will even consider doing. And now I have to deal with accusations of child abuse because of crap like what he peddles? F that.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                “This ain’t that. InMD has shown time and time again that his “I’m just a concerned citizen” shtick is really just hard-nosed bigotry. His mind won’t be changed, here or elsewhere.”

                Or he’s heard your case and wasn’t persuaded. That’s not bigotry.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Sure. If you ignore all the things he actually said.

                He is entitled to his viewpoint. But I’m going to call BS on the, “I’m not really advancing a viewpoint I’m just calling balls and strikes on the absurdity of the ideas.”

                BS.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy says:

                I keep thinking of how invisible the “unmarked category” is, to its own members and how this relates to Critical Race Theory.

                Where the veil of “neutral objectivity” conceals a very subjective and parochial view of the world.

                For example, allowing children to wear religious emblems or clothing is an expression of religious liberty. But allowing them the wear non-gendered clothing is “promoting a viewpoint”.

                The rules and structure of what is encompassed by “religion” and therefore covered by “religious liberty” are very subjective and arbitrary and work to protect one group in power while denying it to all others.Report

              • Jasmin Love in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Allowing children to put Xs over all pictures in library books is an expression of religious liberty, as well.

                Do that, and the librarian will strangle you.

                This is the essence of “religious tolerance” — we will be “tolerant” of your religion until it actually asks us to change our “white” behavior.

                Imagine how offensive “allowing children of different sexes to work together” is to strict Muslims or Jews?

                I’m okay with calling the “Woke Religion” a religion, and treating it as such. As such, you don’t discuss religion in school. Period. “Why is Jimmy wearing a skirt?” “Ask your parents. Also, we’ll send parents a flyer, so that they’ll have some Accurate Idea what is going on.”Report

              • Patrick in reply to North says:

                “I sympathize, it’s awful, but I’m in my forties now and can think of not a single time the angry righteous vanguard roaring “eff you bigot/sexist/racist/homophobe/etc…” has successfully swept a policy debate in this country, even when they were entirely righteous.”

                There are folks who were doing pretty much exactly that at the Reagan White House about AIDS and some of them at least think they contributed to change.

                I’m not really interested in debating the merits, though… I’ll just point out that right now I’m not organizing a national political movement I’m just responding to a dude on a blog.

                Also to the fact that there states now where *my kids cannot go* without taking the risk that if they get in a car accident the EMTs can just let them die *and this will be entirely legal* under the law in that state.

                https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/05/florida-gov-ron-desantis-signs-bill-legalizing-anti-lgbtq-medical-discrimination/

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tyra_Hunter

                I don’t know how to debate this politely, man. This is not a topic for civil conversation.

                And the fact that its thrown up as chaff here on this post that isn’t about this at all has to be regarded as deliberate.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to North says:

              With regards to sex change for minors; the Europeans, for an example, are reining back access to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for minors from their previous baselines based on a lot of, what seems to me, pretty rational scientific evaluation.

              They are not based on any evidence at all, and the fact that transphobes have often entered governmental position (Not medical ones) and issued nonsense statements does not make them ‘rational scientific evaluation’.

              The medical community does not have actual division over this.

              So, while saying someone is advocating for quick, easy, access to sex changes for minors is over the top it’s fair to say that no small number of trans advocates think it should be easier and quicker for minors to access sex changes than it is now.

              You people honestly don’t know how dumb you sound when you say ‘sex change’, do you?Report

            • InMD in reply to North says:

              I think it’s passing, but it will pass slowly in the bluest of the blue places like where I call home. But it’s why I said vaguely D aligned groups, which are the gift that keeps on giving to the right. I rarely hear actual elected officials saying the really crazy stuff.
              My perception is it’s the bureaucracies that keep it alive.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Patrick says:

        So you agree with me that social issues are an important part of the story. Good to know. That just makes it stranger that you ignored them when talking about the Priebus autopsy.Report

  8. Saul Degraw says:

    This is one area where the United States could use some more Marxist analysis. Almost anyone in the rest of the world would look at the GOP and tell you that their real base is the petit bourgeois class. If this is too French, they will tell you that the GOP represents the shopocracy. These are people with often local, not very sexy, but lucrative businesses like car dealerships, wholesalers for lumbar and other raw materials, contractors, etc. The Petit Bourgeois is traditionally the most reactionary of all classes and it fits Trumpism to a T. They want protection from people they perceive as being above and below them. Trump is a developer and this is basically a contractor writ large.Report

    • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      This works, though it leaves out that a sizable majority of the “ultra rich” also support the GOP on financial and regulatory grounds.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

        There is that group but they are relatively small in number and the big social right-wing push from the Petit Bourgeois.Report

      • Jesse in reply to North says:

        Sure, but they’d be normal conservatives in any system. Unfortunately, rich people are far more loyal to their class than poor people.

        But still, Boris Johnson is a very rich guy, and unlike US conservatives, he’s gung-ho for climate change stuff (not as far as a dirty commie like me wants of course) and such. The difference is, nobody in the UK or Europe can be already a right-winger normally, and become obscenely wealthy, because you drill into the ground and stumble into some oil, natural gas, etc.

        The true craziness in American politics comes from that. Hell, you can just look at the three major Anglo countries – UK has no oil and even though it’s getting worse, has a somewhat attached to reality right-leaning party that can win majorities (or at least they could a few years ago), the Aussie’s have a decently large extractive industry, but their right-leaning party lost, in part due to centrists/center-right pro-climate change action people supporting independents, and then we have the US, where any crazy guy who has more money than God because he hit a natural gas deposit in 1973 can bankroll multiple reactionary candidates.Report

        • InMD in reply to Jesse says:

          The UK actually does have significant offshore oil and gas reserves.

          I would say the big distinction is that a conservative in Europe (or Canada) looks at, say, some form of universal health insurance as a cost of doing business and sees no pressing need to mess with it, while in the US they look at it and say not here, not now, not ever.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Jesse says:

          I’d argue it is mainly the lack of belief in white, Confederate Jesus. Europe has a petit bourgeois class. The term does come from Marxist analysis after all. They are also the hallmark of the Tories in the U.K. Margret Thatcher was from this class.

          But they lack white, Confederate Jesus and this makes them a little more sane though they can be just as Islamophobic and transphobic.Report

        • North in reply to Jesse says:

          I get it, but I feel that the ultra-rich have a special quality here in the ol’ USA that their plutocratic peers in other countries lack. I think InMD is, maybe, correct in it’s that the ultra-wealthy in the rest of the west have either accepted a certain level of social safety nets or recognized, begrudgingly, that any genuine attempt to go after those things would result in the wealthy dangling from lamp posts. Whereas the ulta-rich in the USA do seem to genuinely believe that they’re just one or two political manuevers away from abolishing social safety nets entirely AND that if they somehow accomplished doing so that the masses would somehow NOT rise up and (at best) landslide them out of power and put the safety nets back or (at worst) guillotine the whole lot of them.

          The GOP’s behavior my entire adult life springs to mind. They seem to, honest, to God(ess?), think that they can somehow extort the Dems into cutting spending for them and that the voters would then reward them for it.Report

          • LeeEsq in reply to North says:

            Besides what my brother said about White Confederate Jesus, American conservatives tend to be uniquely anti-statist as conservatives in developed democracy go. Most other conservative parties explicitly wanted a strong state and originated in classes that believed in the strong state. American conservatives came from groups that most definitely did not want a strong state telling them what to do.Report

        • Brent F in reply to Jesse says:

          Canada has more oil than the other Anglo countries combined and doesn’t resemble this at all.

          Alberta has more extraction wealth than pretty much anywhere, and while its conservative by Canadian standards, its policy views would be bluest of the blue in America.

          If the USA is weird, its not because of extractive resource industries. That’s completely nuts.Report

  9. Patrick says:

    “Los Alamos physicists started their own religion to get a Religious Exemption from the vaccination”

    Literal LOL maybe don’t overstate your case by a lot, my dude.

    https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-religion-discrimination-412dd94b2453fb0853a2f98e34e02aff

    Eight workers in a national lab that employs…. (drumroll)

    9,570

    https://about.lanl.gov/

    And who are those eight employees? Well, from the complaint:

    https://thomasmoresociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/9-Amended-Verified-Complaint-LANL.pdf

    Raul Archuleta (according to LinkedIn, a Finance and Accounting Enterprise Reporting Team Leader… i.e., not a PhD or a scientist)

    Isaac Martinez (research technician, likely not a PhD)

    Trina Suazo-Martinez (accountant, not a PhD, or a scientist)

    Daniel Frank (software engineer, looks like he left college after undergrad)

    Michelle Cortez (office manager, not a PhD, or a scientist)

    Adriana Martinez (office manager, not a PhD, or a scientist)

    Vallerie Lambert (administrative assistant, not a PhD, or a scientist)

    and…

    Sam Sprow, who no longer works there and I can’t find out anything about him.

    As for the preprint, not-peer reviewed paper you probably found in some chatroom somewhere, you might want to read the limitations section.

    You might also wonder why, in a survey (self-reported!) with 5,121,436 total respondents, the article authors focused on a sub N (529,658 responses, only in the month of May) but did not compare the data analysis of their subpopulation to the overall population, or to compare that time snapshot to, you know, any other time snapshot, to see if there were any odd discrepancies between this one month’s results (in their analysis) and anything else.

    (see, in science, this paper would probably be sent back to the authors with the notorious Reviewer 2 noting they should do exactly that to see if they actually found patterns, or just found the semblance of a pattern by looking at 1/10th of the data available…)

    Particularly because this one thing you’re saying this study proves (it doesn’t) goes completely widdershins to numerous other studies that show that vaccination rates are fairly consistently correlated with educational status.Report

  10. Patrick says:

    I’m just going to point out here, as a meta-commentary on the topic of this post, that the response to it was almost entirely either, “Yeah, sounds about right” or “Trans people!”

    I’ll give Pinky some credit for opening commentary with acknowledging that the parts about structure were the focus.

    “The debate over economic versus social issues is a big part of the story, and it wasn’t addressed here.”

    I really actually don’t think it’s a big part of the story, at least not the story that I’m telling here.

    I think it’s a big part of our *dynamics*, sure, and to that Pinky you’ve got a point.

    For normie folks who don’t care about politics and vote on their own impressions of their economic state, this is mostly strum un drang; they don’t care about trans bills or abortion bills (I’d argue that they should, but whatever, most Americans have trouble worrying about stuff unless it hits them personally in the face). A big swath of folks will pull a lever based upon whether or not they can afford the Christmas presents they want to give more than anything else.

    But the debate about economic policy is no longer a debate between tax-and-spend liberals and small government conservatives. There are basically no small government conservatives in office any more, and that’s *also* a byproduct of the structural dynamics I bring up in the post. Because you can’t get past a GOP primary in our system while wanting relatively low taxes and restrained public spending unless you also *jump into the culture war up to your neck*.

    I mean, just looking at the 2017 tax bill and the 2017 budget, prove me wrong, man. That’s what the last unified GOP government did. The 2018 budget passed on the assumption they were going to repeal and replace Obamacare (they counted the savings) and then… they didn’t do that.

    There are more fiscally conservative folks, folks who are worried about budget stability, *in the Democratic party* at the national level now than there are economic conservatives in the GOP.

    At least those that will stick to economic conservativism when it matters.Report