When The Black Dog Goes For A Walk

Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Pursuer of happiness. Bon vivant. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. There's a Twitter account at @burtlikko, but not used for posting on the general feed anymore. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

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43 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    You sir are both thoughtful and courageous. Thank you for leading us through this analysis. It will help someone somewhere.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    I’m glad you got through what you got through and came out the other side.

    When it comes to Fetterman, I mostly think “Poor guy… he’d be happier doing something else. He’d have the elbow room to be happier doing something else.”Report

    • Doctor Jay in reply to Jaybird says:

      I don’t know, Jaybird. Maybe not. Maybe he hates the depression but loves the job?

      Depression is caused by your condition in life less than most believe, which is something Burt was trying to get at.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Doctor Jay says:

        Yeah, but I also looked at the “building a new life for myself” part and thought that that might be part of a solution as well. Is it that unlikely that Fetterman would be happier as the assistant manager of a bait shop in the Upper Peninsula?

        Depression may not be caused by life experiences but it sure as heck can be exacerbated/alleviated by them. Every single story I’ve heard about politicians in Washington makes me think something to the effect of “that sounds like a truly horrid way to live” and even the glowing ones about the glowing people who thrive in the circumstances (like, there was a story about Charlie Rangel who was a guy who loved pressing the flesh, walking around, and he did stuff like “remember names” which may not be a perfect indicator of sincerity but it’s up there) make me think “that ain’t for me and that ain’t for anybody I know”.

        The upside of Fetterman’s personal aesthetics is that they make him look like a guy you’d like to hang out with around the poker table and “have a beer with”. The downside of them is that they hint that he’s the kind of guy who would go to DC and immediately be overwhelmed by how absolutely awful the place is.Report

        • I’ve been thinking, lately, that it’s inconvenient that the things that make me feel satisfied are also things that are stressful and difficult to do. There are probably a lot of other people out there like that. Would it solve our problem if we just stopped doing the hard stuff?Report

          • Eh, I go for jogs and I *HATE* jogging.

            But I love having jogged.

            However, there are hard things that aren’t like that.Report

            • Well, right, I was thinking mainly of cognitive and emotional labor. There was a study recently that showed people would rather experience physical pain (like a quick shock) rather than undertake a task with a high cognitive load.
              But to keep society running, many people have to do those tasks constantly.
              There’s a growing school of thought that it’s abuse to require people to work for a living. But if people didn’t *have* to do unpleasant, challenging, stressful tasks, that often involve dealing with unpleasant people, why would they? And those tasks can really grind a person down, so that they do hover for a moment at high edges. Or for other types of people, instead use various substances that take their minds off the unpleasantness.
              Most of the tenants I evict I don’t feel sorry for, and that’s because their lives don’t require them to think much, or deal with people they don’t like, and therefore I think they have an overall higher quality of life than I do. That’s my feeling in general about the underclass. Money is my consolation prize for having to deal with them and their champions.
              Report

    • Hey Jaybird, are there any studies that show people with jobs like bait shop manager are less depressed, or less likely to suicide, than people with jobs like Congressperson?
      I kind of assumed that, but can’t think of any evidence to support the theory other than my own prejudices. I don’t know any bait shop managers. I don’t know any congresspeople well.
      I do know a whole lot of lawyers and other professionals. And, while I’ve known a bunch with depression/anxiety, and substance abuse issues, I haven’t known any who actually completed suicide. Just a few recently who died of the effects of long-term substance abuse in middle age. Report

      • I kinda get into this with one of my follow up comments:

        The upside of Fetterman’s personal aesthetics is that they make him look like a guy you’d like to hang out with around the poker table and “have a beer with”. The downside of them is that they hint that he’s the kind of guy who would go to DC and immediately be overwhelmed by how absolutely awful the place is.

        There’s nothing wrong with being a dog in the middle of a dog park. It’s likely to be fun! It’s probably bad to be a fish in the middle of a dog park.

        This should not be seen as a criticism of either dogs or of fish. Nor to imply that one is better than the other.Report

  3. Damon says:

    Burt, this is why men of a certain demographic (mid 30s to late 40s) tend to “zero out” themselves. Recently divorced (women initiate 80% of all divorces), shattered, of the opinion “they are no longer useful”. Their whole life a house of cards when the foundation (marriage) winks out. In my case, I put all my energy and time into my marriage, dropping friends who faded away. As the divorce moved forward, I had no one to talk to but my sister in law (my soon to be ex wife’s sister). Starting over is a bitch. I was fat, and only had a cat to love- and most dating that I did never amount to anything. I didn’t KNOW how to date. That was 10 years ago.
    Yeah, I did think, while on a trip to Ireland, knowing that when we returned, we’d be starting up divorce proceedings, that it might just be easier to just walk up to the top of the Cliffs of Moher and not stop…..just take another step….a long fall and then blackness. That’d show her! I was still in a good enough place to realize that was a stupid idea…..
    Only in the past few years have I started to feel a real change….in confidence, in attitude. I started doing jujitsu because I wanted to lose weight and get into shape. But only recently have I have been developing relationships with guys at the gym. After “hanging out with the dudes” I realized that I needed that more….and many of them told me the same: Men have little time for “guy time” because of marriage, kids, work, etc. Truth is you F’ing need to MAKE time. Every guy in the group that was over 40 said as much.
    I don’t think about zeroing out myself anymore. I look forward to life. Yep, I still play video games, but jujitsu has given me more of a positive attitude and a stronger will….to take the challenge NOT to wallow in despair, numbing myself with booze and food. I have friends who value me in their lives and I’m better “dealing with women”. So for all those guys out there who thing/feel they have nothing left, go build it….you can do it. Every day you make progress, whether it be large or small, the slope’s positive. Keep pushing forward…..IT GETS BETTER.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Damon says:

      I’m glad you didn’t take that extra step on those cliffs, and equally glad you found a way to not be in the headspace where such a thing comes in to view. it got better for you, it got better for me, it’ll get better for a third party reader too.Report

      • Are people the answer? It seems they should be. But I was kind of upset, and pissed off, to find out that a lawyer who drank himself to death (I mentioned him to you a few months ago) actually had an attractive, younger girlfriend with a good career. So it wasn’t lack of a good woman that led to his self-inflicted, middle-aged demise.
        Maybe it just meant one more person to worry about disappointing?Report

        • To the depressed person, “But you have so much!” followed by a laundry list of that person’s blessings, is sometimes of little help. The demon finds ways to turn that around.

          As in: Oh, you’re a successful lawyer with good money, a nice home, and a clever, attractive girlfriend? She’s using you for the money and when she finds out how little of it there actually is and that you’re a gigantic faker who didn’t really earn it, she’s outta here, man. She wants a REAL man, a better-looking man closer to her own age. You’re just a way station for her.

          Now, as with the example in the OP, there’s no reason to think this is actually true. But it’s what the depressive hears, it’s how the objective evidence gets lensed through urgentle, unhumorous self-deprecation into anxiety and despair.

          Depression lies.

          Substance abuse compounds this.

          Are people the answer? Yes, in part — particularly to the extrovert. But remember, going through life as a depressive is about managing the depression, not “solving” it. The sadness and discomfort and grief that are baseline responses to certain inevitable events can be managed. For some, it takes strong measures and medications; for others, it takes “mere” mindfulness (which can seem an effort while in the throes). But also recognize: the inevitable will occur, and you will, and must, respond to it somehow.Report

    • I question the “initiate” part of the “women initiate 80 percent of divorces” statement. I think it’s more accurate to say women are the ones, traditionally, who *file* for tje divorce. That’s different. It doesn’t mean they’re the ones who gave up first or wanted it more, just that they were tasked with the legal chore.
      And, I suspect, just based on my anecdotal observations, that those data are old (I first heard the stats 30 years ago), and things are different now. Report

      • Pinky in reply to Tina Marie Trujillo says:

        Michael Rosenfeld seems to be the main researcher on this topic, and apparently he bases his work on interviews. The stats seem to hold steady around 70%.Report

        • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

          Worth noting: Prof. Rosenfeld distinguishes between marriages and non-marital heterosexual relationships. Men are roughly equally likely to initiate a breakup in a non-marital situation; in formalized heterosexual marriages, the number Pinky reports is correct, and that seems to hold longitudinally steady over the time frames studied (going back to the 1970’s, when no-fault divorce became a significant legal trend across the states).Report

  4. Dark Matter says:

    One of my daughters suffers from depression.

    She didn’t realize most people don’t feel like there’s no point in living. There was a lot of really sad other parts to that, no point in doing school work, no point in getting out of bed, no point in making friends.

    She suffered in silence for years. I found out about all this right before we moved.

    The therapy was probably useful for the first ten meetings, but it was a lot less useful than the drug the doc put her on.

    That drug is a life changer. If she’s properly medicated she has hope in and for the world. If she’s not then she doesn’t.

    They start you off at half correct dosage for a few months because the side effects can be seriously bad. Then they check you and increase and repeat. I do wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t known to ask for that drug. I have another relative who has depression and takes it.

    A year later she doesn’t have depression, she has friends, her grades are good, and the pills cost about ten cents a day.

    Depression is a physical disorder.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

      One medication might work, another work better but with bad side effects, another do nothing, and another nearly crush you. Heck, you can see that kind of variation from different dosages. I wish people didn’t rule out or give up on meds.

      And always a reminder: just like starting meds will affect your brain chemistry, so will changing doses and stopping them. Don’t do this without talking to a doctor.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky says:

        Yes, all of that. There are scary potential side effects and we’re deep into “under the care of a doctor” territory.

        I assume she’s stuck taking these for the rest of her life.

        Having said that, given how vastly it improves her life, it’s well worth the ten cents a day.Report

  5. Chip Daniels says:

    One of the things that helped me through my dark days was stoicism, the understanding that tragedy and suffering are normal and not aberrant events.

    Which is why I prefer terms like melancholy to the more clinical terms, because it places our suffering on the spectrum of the ordinary, next to joy and anger and fear and grief.

    This helped, because often depression becomes self-reinforcing, with the idea that if it is aberrant, then one must be deficient or guilty in some way, causing another cycle of self-loathing and shame.

    The idea that suffering is normal implies that it is also temporary, something one can travel through and get past.

    And ultimately not necessarily the result of bad behavior or deficient character but simply the result of exterior events. And feelings of melancholy are actually not just normal but completely rational and justified, even if unproductive, and can therefore be changed when circumstances shift.Report

    • Damon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “the understanding that tragedy and suffering are normal and not aberrant events.”

      Happiness is not an end state. It lies in the journey. Buddha was correct: Life is suffering.Report

  6. Michael Cain says:

    I’m going through a particularly rough stretch right now, and am buoyed by pieces like this that suggests there’s something worth while on the other side. Thanks for publishing it, Burt.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

      Never doubt that. Some patches are rough because they’re rough, and it’s ok to feel that to a reasonable degree. When they’re paralyzingly rough, or when things are rough and there’s no good reason, then it doesn’t hurt to check in with a therapist.

      I think a lot of the value of a therapist is having someone look inside your thoughts so that you don’t have to. Depression can be – and I say this without any judgment – a kind of involuntary selfishness. The person thinks about his thoughts constantly, for the same reason a person thinks about an injured limb: they’re in pain. Having an outsider say “those two thoughts are understandable; that one’s cray-cray; go play basketball” can give someone permission to take time off from patrolling his own brain.Report

  7. Chris says:

    Thank you for writing this, man.Report

  8. Marchmaine says:

    Thanks for writing a thoughtful essay on this; I think it’s great that you’re taking eudaimonia as a guiding principle.

    Naturally I clicked the link on Aristotle and enjoyed it a lot. But, because this it OT and this is what we do, I can’t stop myself from making a couple of non-depression related comments. Take them in the spirit of social comity. 🙂

    “Outside of philosophy departments, where neo-Aristotelian thinkers such as Philippa Foot and Rosalind Hursthouse have championed his virtue ethics as an alternative to utilitarianism and Kantian approaches, it is not as well known as it should be.”

    Hey, Philippa Foot is the Trolley Problem philosopher! Which is cool, but I’m a little mystified how the intellectual history implies that the revival started and ended with her. She’s part of a formidable group of women philosophers including GEM Anscombe (a fellow at Sommerville). Anscombe wrote the bruising “Modern Moral Philosophy” paper in 1958 which coined the term Consequentialism. Seriously, an amazing read for it’s brutal and rare academic candor; and a must read for all interested in Ethics and/or Intellectual History – especially Virtue Ethics. Considered by some to be the best academic journal article ever (ok, the bar is low). Certainly an article who’s style will never be repeated.

    And, I have it as first-hand knowledge from the man himself that the Somerville set directly influenced Alasdair MacIntyre and the ongoing ‘revival’ of Aristotelian virtue ethics that continues to this day. Though saying ‘revival’ and ‘Aristotle’ only makes sense from a sort of disenchanted Kantian world view as Aristotle’s ethics has never really gone away; just obscured to greater or lesser degrees.

    And thus concludes my diversion into the Somerville set and modern Virtue Ethics.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Marchmaine says:

      I would have said my adoption of Aristotle was my own, that my education revealed a good spectrum of schools of thought and I made up my own mind from there. But of course my teachers influenced me. Were they Somersetians? If so (or if not), they didn’t say.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Burt Likko says:

        To be sure; The Somerville Set are simply interesting. Anscombe in particular; curiously she was friends with Wittgenstein and one of his literary executors. She’s certainly not forgotten among intellectual historians, but there’s a lot to plumb there still.Report

  9. Greg In Ak says:

    Hi Burt, great piece and thanks for writing this. There is always help out there for all of us but depression makes it so much harder to find. Like you i’m a non believer. I’ve had some of those “what would happen if?” thoughts but not in a long time. But i very much still remember them. I haven’t had those thoughts when I’ve had the worst things in my life happen to me ( death of a child) but holy hell i had plenty of other dark thoughts.

    Men aren’t really taught well how to go through dark periods unless we just happen to be an ex Navy SEAL down on our luck but ready to methodically and coldly kill dozens of generic henchmen then take out the boss in the service of a noble cause that’s also a hottie. Talking and connection is what we need. Given i’m a mental health pro by trade i’m big on therapy. It’s only one small part of getting life together but what it can do is unique.

    I think of this from Stephen King a lot since early 2021 when i life got harsh for me for a while.

    ““No one can tell what goes on in between the person you were and the person you become. No one can chart that blue and lonely section of hell. There are no maps of the change. You just come out the other side.” The Stand

    I went through that blue and lonely section at times alone and at times with the help i needed. But i got through. Until the next hard part but that is life. It feels good to have words that hit me like lightening to help me understand in a global way , a poetic way, what is happening since the dry tech words of therapy don’t do that. We need a lot of things.

    Good for you for leaving that section behind you.

    Trips to Alaska can be great for a person mental health.Report

  10. Doctor Jay says:

    The Burt I’ve come to know via your writings is a person I like a lot. A keen observer of the world, and who is strongly self-aware. As it turns out, this makes you a bit more vulnerable to depression.

    Before I expand on that, I want to note that I’ve had a struggle with depression my whole life. It has very little to do with how talented and accomplished I am. In fact, when people say things like, “But you have (X, Y or Z that they don’t have)” it kind of makes things worse for me. Because they don’t get it.

    I have developed a lot of very solid skills that keep me out of the pit, and can get me back to my nominal state. This is good. I’ll never be rid of it, though. This is not a “cure” situation, it’s a “manage” situation.

    I recall reading a book written by Martin Seligmann, former president of the APA, and a foremost researcher on depression. In it he said that once did an evaluation of how accurately people were able to tell when they didn’t have control over outcomes, and cross-referenced this with a scale for how depressed they were.

    It turns out people who are mildly depressed are the best at discerning when they don’t have control over an outcome. They see the world the most clearly.

    It seems like a cruel trick, doesn’t it?Report

  11. Maribou says:

    I really appreciated reading this. You’re doing good work.Report

  12. Em Carpenter says:

    Burt,
    You are an amazing person. I’m glad you’re here and so glad I had the great privilege of meeting you last summer.
    Thank you for your courage in sharing this part of yourself.Report

  13. Burt Likko says:

    Thank you to the whole community for your generous and compassionate responses. May your examples spread out into the world, that others may emulate you.Report

  14. Burt, I have this theory that well-educated people who make it to this stage (late middle-aged, depressed) are the ones who don’t have the mental inclination or biological ability to *self-medicate* their distress.
    Within the last year and a half, I learned three lawyers I knew (all roughly age peers) died recently, in their mid to late 40s, of substance-abuse related causes. Not overdoses though. Just causes related to long-term alcohol and/or substance overuse.
    These men (all men) did have a long life, although they died too young. I like to think maybe they really enjoyed their decades of being high and drunk, but it just caught up with them.
    Makes me ponder: At what point does an early exit stop being a tragedy? What else did those guys owe the world? And then, what do *we* owe it?
    It’s not too far ahead that we start having to worry about many more people around us dying of natural causes. Report

    • Been reflecting upon this comment from you for much of the morning, because the relationship between…

      1) attaining middle age,
      2) pursuit of a high-stress profession,
      3) substance abuse and in particular alcohol abuse,
      4) divorce (unmentioned in your comment but prominent elsewhere in the comments and my OP), and
      5) varying degrees of depression

      … is hugely complicated but also substantially correlated. I wouldn’t call myself a substance abuser, but I do take a drink or two much more frequently than I did a decade ago and am quite conscious of the hazards that come with being a professional in a field where substance abuse can totally ruin not only the abuser but the substance abuser’s clients as well. Every bar association in the country requires CLE’s on the effects of substance abuse and protecting against them, and for a reason.

      In California, the bar association created a resource called The Other Bar; in Oregon, the bar association’s cognate resource OAAP is more generalized in focus, and is staffed by attorneys who hold various kinds of counseling and social work accreditations. I definitely want to mention those resources and steer sister and brother members of the bar towards them. OAAP helped me find a therapist here in Oregon to help me with my depression, and I’m deeply grateful to the attorney-counselor I worked with to get there.

      But to return to your story about colleagues and friends succumbing to substance abuse, I think I’ll call out a phrase from another author who sometimes posts here at OT, Dennis Sanders, and call the story “a tragedy born of many parents.” Recognizing that the origin of such tales is diverse and complex, I’m willing to bet that they have one thing in common, which was that the lawyers in question all probably failed to reach out for help, either sincerely or timely enough for it to do much good.

      And for that reason, they’re all tragedies.Report

  15. About the not seeking help theory: I have no evidence you’re wrong, and some that you’re right. Confirming for either guy would mean bugging people more than I’m comfortable doing.

    Divorce: Two out of the three were never married. That’s odd, for straight men that age from intact, upper-middle-class families, with UC educations. (All three were UC grads who grew up in OC.)
    But the third, the one I knew least, had divorced a few years back from his law school girlfriend. He was well-known enough that a major paper wrote a news obit for him. Some friends were candid about urging him to get help, and saying he was “sick.” They seemed to imply alcohol was part of it, but not the whole thing.

    The one I knew best, for three years in law school, mocked the idea of self-introspection. But he seemed happy just playing video games, hanging out with Cal undergrad friends occasionally, following the Lakers, eating fast food, and doing cocaine. Didn’t seem concerned at all with career after law school the way the rest of us were. We just figured he was immature. Was it really depression? I never knew him to break down, or sink into any kind of different mood. He was always just immaturely sarcastic. Would therapy or legal drugs have done anything about that? If he weren’t dead, I wouldn’t even feel right calling it a problem.

    The third one, well, he had “psychiatric history of anxiety” in the medical records I saw. (Coroner’s office messed up the redaction.) Nothing about depression, though, or hospitalization or suicide attempts. A couple years before he died, he’d been ordered into an outpatient rehab program that included individual counseling, due to a bad DUI. He had trouble completing the program, but finally did. Died anyway.

    But then again, none of these guys are counted as suicides. Contributory, self-inflicted issues, but not suicide. In fact, I can’t think of any actual suicide lawyers I’ve known. Maybe we just take slower routes.

    Report