The New Right’s Stasi Fantasy

Mike Grillo

Mike Grillo is a writer who, when not writing, is working in finance and surviving the wilds of being a New Jersey resident. He does not tweet.

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105 Responses

  1. Dark Matter says:

    TestReport

  2. Philip H says:

    For the life of me, I still cannot comprehend the unwavering loyalty so many on the right show towards Donald Trump.

    I can. after decades of being ignored by politicians of both parties, decades of watching their place at the pinnacle of society dwindle, and decades of being held to account for their societal and economic sins, his followers found in him a person who publicly gave them permission to tantrum, in the hopes of restoring control.

    We have a treasure trove of documented misconduct by law enforcement from the local level all the way to the federal level.

    Yes we do, and no politician has ever tried to undo that. A whole summer of protests about that very thing – in the middle of a raging pandemic – has resulted in nothing. Shamefully.

    That’s why the far left wants to abolish the filibuster, eliminate the electoral college, and turn the Senate into another representative body.

    Or, we just looked around, followed history, and concluded that a nation that has spent over 200 years evolving might need some new guiding laws to implement its founding vision. No one, least of all the Founding Fathers (notice the lack of women in that phrasing) ever expected the nation or its institutions to remain static.

    But on the right? I sure do. I still believe in the underlying principles of classical liberals such as Locke, de Tocqueville, and Jefferson. I still cling, for lack of a better word, to the conservatism espoused by Edmund Burke, Russell Kirk, and William F. Buckley. I want a world where the economic ideals of Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman lead the way.

    If that’s what you want more power to you – but I want t hose ideas to loose. They are misogynistic, racist and supportive of unregulated markets – which will never prize human dignity over profit. They supported slavery, oppression of women, and the destruction of the natural environment in search of human economic profit. They offer us nothing but misery, petty conflict, and savagery laying waste to the world around us. No thanks.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

      but I want those ideas to loose.

      What, mechanically, would you prefer instead?Report

      • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

        An economy centered on dignity and respect for both the worker and the environment.
        A society that truly fulfills Dr. King’s call for judging people by the content of their character.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

          “dignity” and “respect” are very squishy terms from an economic point of view. Who and how would they be defined?Report

          • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Labor is paid fully and appropriately for its contribution to production. Full healthcare is provided independent of employment so that people can move as needed for personal or economic reasons. People are provided for in retirement.

            And for the love anything holy we stop destroying the earth we live on.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Philip H says:

      “I can. after decades of being ignored by politicians of both parties, decades of watching their place at the pinnacle of society dwindle, and decades of being held to account for their societal and economic sins, his followers found in him a person who publicly gave them permission to tantrum, in the hopes of restoring control.”

      This raises the question of why they were ignored and whether it was right to do so at best. At worst, I think it falls for a lot of the incorrect statements on “working class” Trump voters because it reduces working class to white, heterosexual men with former industrial/heavy physical labor type of jobs. I I generally think the view expresses a lot of facts not in evidence.

      The myth of the working-class Trump voter is often that, a myth. The backbone of the GOP and the majority of Trump’s ardent fanbase is not a suffering working-class is dying small towns. The real backbone and fanbase comes from what an old, European Marxist would call the petit bourgeois or what the Brtish call the shopocracy. Economically, they are reasonably to very well off. However, they earned their money in things like car dealerships and lumbar wholesale (e.g. Elsie Stefanik’s parents). They often might earn more than their contemporaries with college-educations and liberal politics. In terms of social-cultural politics, they are downright retrograde and reactionary.

      They like Trump because he is a reactionary blowhard in a bar who hates the same thing they hate and he expresses this hatred and contempt in a way that most politicians are trained not to. He gives them pure undiluted hatred. There is no socialist or center-left politician who can bring these people back to the left without sacrificing minority rights on an altar. They would not vote for Bernie. A Trump v. Sanders presidential election would have them reciting the anti-Semitic forgery of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion perpetually. AOC is someone they would hang.

      The United States is largely becoming a country where people vote on social issues, not economic issues. This seems to cause distress to way too many people from neoliberal corporate types (social division is bad for sales and branding!!!) to socialist types who dislike that “cringe winemoms” are often the most reliable votes for social and economic liberalism in the United States.*

      *Most polling shows that middle-class and upper-middle class, educated professionals (often white) have the most reliably social and economic left politics in the United States. As far as I can tell, everyone hates this fact.Report

  3. Dark Matter says:

    That’s why the completely over-the-top freakout regarding Trump’s Mar-A-Lago home getting searched by the FBI is so bizarre.

    Picture President Trump having the FBI search candidate Biden’s home for national security reasons (no, you can’t see the evidence and we’re not going to get specific on what we’re looking for) and taking some boxes that the FBI admits are covered by attorney client pillage.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      (no, you can’t see the evidence and we’re not going to get specific on what we’re looking for) and taking some boxes that the FBI admits are covered by attorney client pillage.

      They have shown us the warrant and the property receipt. None of that appears to be covered by attorney-client privilege. And as also reported, Trump and his team were served a subpoena in June for these materials and refused to produce them. Hence the warrant.

      Nice try though.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Trump is not a candidate.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy says:

        Trump is the front runner candidate in everything but name and that’s expected to change.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Dark Matter says:

          So you’re objection is based on a bunch of falsehoods or half-truths. Cool.

          “Picture President Trump having [Biden had no role in this search] the FBI search candidate Biden’s home for national security reasons (no, you can’t see the evidence and we’re not going to get specific on what we’re looking for) [the warrant and receipt were released shortly thereafter when made possible by a judge] and taking some boxes that the FBI admits [I see nowhere the FBI admits this] are covered by attorney client pillage.”

          The election that Trump is likely to be a candidate in is over 2 years away. If it is wrong to search his home for illegally held documents NOW, then you’re basically saying any major political figure is off limits from police investigation at all times.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Kazzy says:

        Just like John Durham is going to indict Obama and Clinton ANY DAY NOW (I’m laughing at you George Turner wherever you are), Trump will announce his candidacy any day now too.Report

  4. InMD says:

    The tantrum conservatives are throwing over this is not particularly grounded in reality. Now, I will say that I have found the progressive left’s selective lionozation of federal law enforcement to be among the many bizarre, and dumb things that Trump has wrought on our politics. Everyone should always be willing to express a healthy skepticism towards these types of authorities. But what Trump and his supporters are doing ain’t it. The feds didn’t shoot anyone. They didn’t kill the family dog. As far as we know they didn’t get the wrong address or trash the place or cuff and rough up anyone. The espionage act may be a kind of crazy and dangerous statute as applied to certain situations, but that’s a matter for Congress and the courts. As long as the facts remain that the FBI did nothing but execute a search in accordance with a valid warrant supported by probable cause, well that’s just the system working as it’s supposed to.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

      Nor did the feds or the DOJ do this to embarrass Trump. There was no announcement before or after, and we know about it only because of Trump himself.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

      The espionage act may be a kind of crazy and dangerous statute as applied to certain situations, but that’s a matter for Congress and the courts.

      I agree with that in the _general_ sense that the espionage act can be overly broad and applied in situations that verges on inhibiting free speech…but people at the highest position of power wandering off with nuclear secrets and storing them in a closet really does seem like something we do want to forbid.

      I mean, it depends on what he actually did, of course, but the fact he was apparently asked repeatedly to give them back and claimed he had…yeah, there no claiming the law was used abusively in these circumstances. The government already played nice there.

      And as Mike Schilling pointed out, no one would even know this had happened if not for Trump.(1)

      1) There are a bunch of dumbasses out there going ‘Oh, sure, you’d never know huge amounts of FBI vehicles and agents going in and out of there with boxes if Trump hadn’t told us’…and it’s like ‘Yes, we’d know they had _taken_ stuff, yeah, but it was Trump who explained it was _unwillingly_. He could have just said the government came in to recover some documents, as it had been discovered he had inadvertently taken some classified material, and just leave the implication that it was him handing things over like a reasonable person.’

      But then again, if he was a reasonable person, he just would have _done_ that to start with. The fact he did something like that already a few months ago (just didn’t hand everything over) barely made a blip, honestly I’m not sure the papers actually told us at the time.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

        It really can’t be emphasised enough that the normal reaction of an ex-government employee who is called by the FBI and told ‘Hey, when you left your job, we have pretty clear evidence that you apparently took some classified stuff, so, uh, we’re going to need that back.’ is ‘Oh no! If I give it back we’re good, right? You’re not going to charge me with anything? No? That sounds amazing! Tomorrow good for you?’ (You should probably do that converstation via lawyer, but whatever.)

        But not Trump and his weird disorder of whatever it is, where he thinks the entire legal system does not matter, because in his reality, he can just string out lawsuits until he wins.

        Bud, the FBI isn’t going to _sue_ you over having classified information. They’re going to break down your door and _take_ the classified information away from you, and then possibly arrest you.Report

        • InMD in reply to DavidTC says:

          My issue is when it is used to prosecute journalists or whistle-blowers. I’m not losing sleep over prosecuting a former elected official for taking classified documents for some nefarious or self-interested purpose.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

            You and I are on exactly the same page.

            The US doesn’t have an official secrets act, and that’s a good thing. I personally have not signed an NDA, I do not have a security clearance, and thus I can distribute any classificated information I get…or to put that another way, if I learn something, the government cannot claim it is classified and make me not tell anyone. It also means that once classified information gets out, it’s out.

            However, the espionage act _has_ been used like it’s an official secrets act. Repeatedly. Often that is a problem.

            Sometimes it’s not, especially here, where we run into the problem that the president is in _charge_ of the classification system, and also I think did not sign a security clearance? Which is a weird fact but just how things works. So he can’t really violate the main premise of that.(1)

            But the president is someone who certainly should be held to those standards.

            1) Although he still is subject to rules about _maintaining secure containment_ of classified information. When president, he might have the legal right to officially declassify anything, or just _tell_ people classified information (He actually did that once that we know of.), he doesn’t have the right to physically take documents that are classified and remove them to insecure locations and give them to insecure people. The _documents_ are not his to do with as he sees fit, even if the _information_ is.Report

  5. Damon says:

    “With the rise of social media and the ability of politicians to create viral videos, snarky tweets, and other red meat content for the politically addicted, it’s no wonder we have a barely functioning federal government. Why attend boring committee hearings, mark up legislation, do constituent outreach, debate policies, and propose legislation when tweeting and making Instagram videos are so much more fun?”

    Congress abandoned most legislation LONG before social media was even a pipe dream. They haven’t done much for a long time. The only thing I think Trump every accomplished was that his election exposed the fallacy of an “independent mainstream media”. But if you were paying attention, you knew that already.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

      Congress abandoned most legislation LONG before social media was even a pipe dream. They haven’t done much for a long time. The only thing I think Trump every accomplished was that his election exposed the fallacy of an “independent mainstream media”. But if you were paying attention, you knew that already.

      All true.Report

  6. Philip H says:

    it’s no wonder we have a barely functioning federal government.

    Wrong. You have one completely dysfunctional branch of government – by its own choice. The other two seem to be working as designed and intended, though that third one not working does create unnecessary roadblocks from time to time.Report

    • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

      The legislative branch doesn’t legislate; the executive branch basically uses the military however it wants without asking the legislative branch to declare war, and in the last two decades has authorized torture and indefinite detention for anyone it calls an enemy combatant; the judicial branch has the mostly awful federal law enforcement agencies, a broken criminal court system, and 9 elites writing legislation. I can’t think of anything that’s functioning like it should, except maybe the parks department, though they’re understaffed.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Chris says:

        the mostly awful federal law enforcement agencies

        Um those are all executive branch agencies as well, and while we can agree on the awfulness of their actions, do note they are operating under the Congressional direction they have received.

        I can’t think of anything that’s functioning like it should, except maybe the parks department

        You get your weather forcasted.
        You get meat inspected and mostly safe.
        You get drugs approved, and again generally safely.
        You get classified documents removed from a former President who doesn’t have a legal claim to them.
        You get clean air and clean water.
        you get contaminated brownfields cleaned up.
        You get national education standards implemented.
        You get free school lunches delivered.
        you get senior citizens kept out of abject poverty.

        There’s a lot the federal civil service gets right every day. So let’s please, for the love of the deity, stop with the “Government is broken cr@p” and focus on what actually doesn’t work. Its beyond insulting of 2 million of your fellow citizens.Report

        • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

          Man, the NOAA keeps telling me it’s gonna rain, but [looks at my grass], it ain’t rained.

          (And there are big issues with the FDA, largely related to budget and regulation; I don’t need to tell you about education standards in Texas; I don’t need to tell you about elections; I don’t need to tell you about how many senior citizens are in fact in abject poverty; I don’t need to tell you about how bad the air and water are in many places; etc.)

          But yeah, I was exaggerating about federal agencies. There are some good ones, largely under the auspices of the executive branch. Most of them could use a lot more money, though.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

          1) It’s awkward to claim both that the cops are engaged in genocide against minorities and also that the gov is working fine.

          Similarly it should be awkward to claim “the gov could have done X” (stopped covid) in face of the gov not doing x. If the claim is that the gov is totally incompetent when Blue isn’t in charge, well that just means you look the other way when you’re running things.

          2) Cultural cram downs and the threat there of.

          3) Open corruption. High level politicians having personal “charities” and their children getting do-nothing jobs. Drugs that only have one provider who can charge what he wants.

          4) The various wars that we haven’t exactly won haven’t impressed.

          5) The open(ish) boarder and the lack of immigration reform.

          6) Gov dead lock.

          7) I’ll spend about two weeks filling out my taxes like normal. The tax code isn’t humanly compressible. The IRS knows what you owe and is “legally” prevented from telling you because Turbo Tax paid Congress to prevent that.

          8) I work for a Fortune 500, people who deal with regulators and navigate the thicket of gov regulations are among the best paid.

          9) I went to the DMV to get a Driver’s license for daughter #4 last week. We got there an hour and a half before it opened at 8 and were out by 1pm. The workers would claim we’re supposed to make an appointment and we can skip the lines, but they’re booking 10 weeks in advance.

          So basically by DMV standards we moved at the speed of light and had a really good experience. But what can you expect, this is the government, this level of efficiency is expected.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Please stop comparing the DMV to the feds. not even the same ball game, much less the same field.

            As to the rest – about 3/4ths of your examples arise out of Congressional disfunction.

            Cops engaging in minority oppressions is what the system was designed to do. We may not like it, but that’s not actual government dysfunction.

            And yes your regulatory people are better paid then ours are. That’s a huge part of the problem. Its also STILL a congressional problem, in as much as we have statutory caps on what we can pay people, that businesses don’t have to wrangle.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Philip H says:

              My dealings with the DMV have largely been pleasant and tolerably efficient.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              This is changing the goal posts from “the gov isn’t dysfunctional” to “it’s Congress’ fault the gov is dysfunctional” (or it’s by design).

              My client is innocent of these murder charges and he was insane when he did it.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Congress is dysfunctional. As a result much of the executive branch is under resourced for the mission Congress has given it. We do the best we can with what we have to do the jobs we have been asked to do. Not all of those jobs are necessary any more, and not all of those jobs satisfy every American. But we have to keep doing them as long as we are told by Congress to do them.

                “Government” is not dysfunctional. Congress is. Place your wrath where it belongs.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                The American people elect politicians promising high benefits and low taxes. If Congress were somehow forced to balance the budget, part of that balance would involve increasing taxes but also part would involve reducing the mission.

                This problem seems to be intrinsic to our political and social body.

                Yes, in theory, gov can be properly funded. Properly evaluated. Pared back when it’s not being effective or doing the wrong thing. Not taken hostage or scapegoated by politicians. Not captured by special interests or misused by the corrupt.

                Similarly in theory Lucy can just hold the football for Charlie Brown.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I have said for years I’d welcome a well informed discussion of, and funding for, what the federal government should do. What we get instead is tax policy rewarding ever fewer Americans and ever more legal requirements for the Executive to do something. Which leads to Signing statements and Executive Orders which no one claims to want, to say nothing of an ever growing deficit and debt.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                I’d welcome a well informed discussion of, and funding for, what the federal government should do.

                What we get in practice is [this program] is considered in a vacuum, as though the gov has no other fiscal calls on it’s resources and as though it’s doing nothing else to deal with [problem]. So we end up with dozens of job placement programs that don’t do much.

                What we need is a politically painful slush fund to make up the difference between income and expenditures.

                Example: If the Gov is short a Billion dollars, that money is subtracted from Social Security payments. If the Gov creates an program without totally funding it, then it’s the same as cutting Social Security. If the gov gets rid of a program, then it’s adding to Social Security.

                Maybe the way to balance the budget is to raise taxes, maybe the way is to have the gov do less, but the political forces against raising taxes need to be balanced against the political forces to increase spending.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                If the Gov is short a Billion dollars, that money is subtracted from Social Security payments. If the Gov creates an program without totally funding it, then it’s the same as cutting Social Security. If the gov gets rid of a program, then it’s adding to Social Security.

                As it is, Congress has been borrowing against the SSI Trustfund for three decades. Theoretically they pay it back . . . .Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                That’s just expecting future Congresses to find the money. If you’re not dealing with the current Congress then you’re not dealing with the problem.Report

              • If the Gov is short a Billion dollars, that money is subtracted from Social Security payments. If the Gov creates an program without totally funding it, then it’s the same as cutting Social Security.

                Make it defense and sign me up. After all, no defense appropriation can run longer than two years anyway.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain says:

                I don’t think Defense is popular enough (and maybe not big enough) to make this work. Over the decades Defense spending as a share of the GDP is close to a linear line down.

                Our problem, and the source of our out of control spending, is entitlements. SS is the 3rd rail of politics, Defense has been cut lots of times.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Put differently, all politicians like SS and they will all get political problems for holding it hostage or damaging it. Defense has serious people saying it should be cut.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

                No way any sane person outside the tiny republitarian faction of the right would ever sign onto such a scheme. In the current political environment that’d just give a tiny minority in Congress a new tool to gut Social Security with.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                The advantage of the idea is it would inflict huge political pain on the political class until they did their jobs. That’s also why it would never be enacted.

                And my expectation is that Social Security wouldn’t be “gutted”, instead we’d have the budget balanced.

                For obvious reasons it wouldn’t be rolled out all at once. Highly likely the level of pain would be so high we’d see national referendums on what to do… but that would be fine.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I deeply doubt it. The current legal structure (McConnells filibuster Senate) strongly advantages tax cuts and deficit spending so that’s what we have. Creating some, what, legislative bypass that required unbalanced budgets to be taken out of Social Security would merely allow 50 Republican Senators to enact massive cuts to social security and then block attempts to refund it as long as they had 40 Senators. It’d be utter lunacy to enact such a gift to the libertarian right, especially while the Senate is currently structured the way it is and the right is as deranged as it is.

                This becomes doubly so because the history of deficit financial crises cuts in the other direction. Look at Canada or any number of Euro states for the examples. Historically, a debt fueled crisis is addressed by: 1) jacking taxes up as high as the polity and economy will allow while 2) cutting corporate welfare, discretionary spending and defense spending to the bone. Only then is the difference 3) applied against entitlement spending. It’s entirely beyond me why anyone who wasn’t a plutocrats pet would want to put entitlement spending on the chopping block first.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                I very much doubt we could find even 5 Senators who would want to cut SS.

                It’s entirely beyond me why anyone who wasn’t a plutocrats pet would want to put entitlement spending on the chopping block first.

                Because that’s where the money is at, and it’s where the growth of the budget is at.

                After we cut Defense spending and “Corporate Welfare” (whatever that means), we’re going to find out those are political gestors that doesn’t change the math of it.Report

              • The Social Security Administration has, over the last 40 years, collected a $3T excess from their dedicated tax and transferred it to the General Fund. There is no way to describe cutting SS spending other than as a version of “some of the bonds the SSA was required to purchase are declared worthless.”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain says:

                With the benefit of hindsight, the Trust Fund’s only function was to attempt to bind the hands of future congresses.

                Mechanically, there is no way for SS to “save” money. It’s pay as you go, a dollar taxed in 1980 can’t be spent in 2022, it was spent right away.

                These bonds are money the gov owes to itself. There would have been no mechanical difference to simply saying that future Congresses will find the money to put SS first.

                And with this massive tax increase, Congress found ways to spend it so there’s a strong argument that we’re worse off. That there would have been less gov spending without the Trust fund so there’d be more room for gov to increase spending now.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Five 5 Senators who want to cut SS? Oh certainly not, perish the thought! But Senators who want to cut taxes on the wealthy and can’t find any spending that their opponents will agree to cut and, oh dear, the budget doesn’t balance, so they shed a single tear as the deficit is deducted from SS under this proposed rule? You could find 40-50 of those on the right.

                “Because that’s where the money is at, and it’s where the growth of the budget is at.”

                Sure, and the normal political calculus in a debt crisis is you go after entitlements… after first raising taxes and cutting everything else first. No one is going to sign on to going after entitlements first.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                In order to make the budget balance we need to align the political forces to cut taxes directly against the forces to increase (entitlements).

                I picked SS because I doubt the GOP can oppose it. The forces to maintain SS seem stronger than any other program the gov does.

                My expectation is that other entitlements get sacrificed to SS and taxes get raised.

                Having said that, SS is a huge part of the budget and maybe part of balancing the budget means it gets cut too.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Well, one’d be better off campaigning on that directly because no one with a political brain cell on the left or center would be willing to set up the kind of rule you’re talking about- and they’d be right not to. I note, for instance, that Obama specifically proposed a combination of small tax increases and large cuts for budget balancing purposes during his term and the GOP vociferously rejected it. Any rule that could be used by a right-wing minority to force Social Security cuts by simply unbalancing the budget with tax cuts would be used by our current GOP to the hilt. It would be insane to give them such a rule- especially for an issue like balanced budgets. Governments (even ours) are fully capable of balancing their budgets once they choose to or have to.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                I see no indication that the GOP is serious about balancing the budget. Ditto the Left.

                I also see no indication that the GOP would inflict the political pain on itself that getting rid of (or even just cutting) SS would inflict on it.

                For that matter I don’t even see any desire by any of them to reduce SS. Pretty close to all of them, on both sides, want to be able to run as the champions/defenders of SS simply because the public likes it.

                Our root dysfunction isn’t the GOP, it’s that the electorate wants free stuff… and the math of that breaks stuff.

                Governments (even ours) are fully capable of balancing their budgets once they choose to or have to.

                I’d rather have cancer treatments at stage 1 rather than stage 4.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I think that’s too cute by half. The GOP has been taking runs and SS and other entitlement programs, despite the electoral suicide it entails, for my entire adult life at the behest of their paymasters. The theory is that once they kill entitlements there’ll be a backlash but not one large enough to give the left the super majority, they’d need to re-institute them. Creating a mechanism like your “budget deficit comes out of SS” is exactly the kind of roundabout way of killing an entitlement that they’d dream of. The right would use such a mechanism wildly then would lie and spin furiously to try and deflect blame for it. That’s why it’s a such a horrible policy. It’d make budgeting even more dysfunctional, not less.

                All electorates would like stuff and would prefer not to pay for stuff. It has to be confronted directly through budgeting or, eventually, your currency, debt and economy will force you to face it anyhow.

                The proposed rule is, no doubt, well intentioned but in practice it’d serve merely as a function for the tiny plutocratic minority and their electoral minions to gut entitlements. We already have an electoral system tilted to their preferences, it’d be deranged to tilt it more in their direction.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to North says:

                Bush and some R’s really did try to put SS into the market since it would rain down pennies from heaven and cut taxed. That the market had a major crash soon after hasn’t dulled the desire to do something really stupid, make mega billions for wall street and leave people at the complete whim of the market.Report

              • North in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Indeed they did. If one wants budget discipline, one can vote for budget discipline. This kind of backchannel rule would either be ineffective (you cannot bind future congresses) or it’s be a dumpster fire.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                The reality they will never face is that the right way to balance the budget on a program where demand for it or something very much like it is inevitable is to tax in a manner that sustainably funds it.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                I mean, you can over tax. The Laffer curve is an actual thing. But contrary to the right wing loons we haven’t been on the wrong side of it since, what, Kennedy?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                Laffer is about maximizing income to the gov. The problem is increasing taxes should damage economic growth long before it results in actual reduction of the total collected taxes.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I very much doubt we could find even 5 Senators who would want to cut SS.

                Ron Johnson and Rick Scott want to change it from entitlement status to mear statute status so Congress is forced to regularly reauthorize it. Mitt Romney proposed creating and independent commission to draft legislation to “reform” SSI whose legislative product would only be subject to up or down votes. That’s three right there. I’m guessing McConnell would go along if he thought it would keep him in power.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                In 2037, the “trust” fund runs out of money and SS beneficiaries are looking at something like a 25% reduction in payments.

                “Reform” isn’t the same thing as “cut” in this context.

                For that matter forcing Congress to reauthorize it is also not the same as “cut”. Ideally that just allows Congress to justify it’s own existence.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Remember the mess when Republicans decided to not reauthorize CHiP for months? Do you think failure to reauthorize SSI would turn out any better?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                I think there would be a hell of a lot of political blowback and they’d be punished at the ballot box. And they’d deserve it.

                In terms of impact on society, SS is multiple orders of magnitude more important.

                IMHO there is a LOT to be said for making Congress responsible for it’s actions or inactions. There’s a lot to be said for taking these programs off of autopilot and having Congress take ownership on the politically created gov programs that are the bulk of gov spending.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                IMHO there is a LOT to be said for making Congress responsible for it’s actions or inactions. There’s a lot to be said for taking these programs off of autopilot and having Congress take ownership on the politically created gov programs that are the bulk of gov spending.

                Great. Now go vote this November in a way that matches this sentiment. Most Americans won’t.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Well there you go. Fiscal sanity is a tiny minority and requires pain, virtue signaling against [out group] or doing other identity politics is easy.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                There’s a lot to be said for taking these programs off of autopilot and having Congress take ownership on the politically created gov programs that are the bulk of gov spending.

                Congress doesn’t even want to take credit for borrowing to pay money it literally allocated itself. People will vote for spending bills and then not raising the debt ceiling.

                Congress operates entirely a universe made up of zero-information voters, and almost the entire of their Congress’s voting decisions that are not paid for by lobbyists are decided by ‘What makes it hardest to have disingenious attack ads against me?’

                Saying ‘They need to take ownership’ is a great hypothetical goal in a universe where the people who ‘took ownership’ and kept spending exactly level with previous years will _not_ get voted out of office because morons saw ads talking about those people’s ‘spending’. But that is not our universe.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Roughly 1/3rd of federal spending is debt spending in that it exceeds revenue collected from all source. Discretionary spending is 1/3rd of federal spending, including discretionary defense spending – which is 13% of total outlays. So you do the math on whether discretionary defense cuts would do much. Even with that, SSI only accounts for about 21% of the federal spending, and non-SSI healthcare is 1/4.

                Earned benefits are indeed an issue, but only because of the the revenue caps placed on taxation for them, and the penchants of Congress to borrow against them as I noted above. As maudlin as it sounds, the Earned Benefits problem will also take of itself somewhat once the Boomer generation dies off, as they are the largest generation out there.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

              I’ll go further and say that the old story of how “government agencies are slow and inefficient” is mostly a crap urban legend that got repeated so often that everyone just knows its true, even though its false.

              To begin with- Legislatures ARE powerful and are NOT dysfunctional, when they aren’t bogged down with obstructionists.

              California used to be the worst, where the Legislature coul dnever pass a budget, and several times the entire state government shut down.

              But then, we kicked the Republicans to the curb, and lo and behold, now the machinery hums along, bills are passed, money is appropriated, and things like the DMV operate like clockwork (I also was in and out in less than 15 minutes when I got my license renewed).

              90% of what state and local governments do is done so efficiently and so well that the vast majority of people never see it, or even know about it.

              On the other side of the equation- Go ahead, call your cable company/ insurance company/ bank and dispute a bill or statement. Then come back and give me a lecture on inefficiency and obstruction.

              Government works. Government is good.Report

          • I went to the DMV a few weeks ago to renew my license. I’d made an appointment in advance (I’d known its expiration date for years), and I was in and out in less than 15 minutes.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Mike Schilling says:

              In Michigan it would take a hour or (at peak worst) three (average less than 2).

              In Florida it’s 5 if you’re lucky and at worst (and average) they simply won’t let you get in line.Report

            • I renewed my drivers license a month ago. Went to the DMV’s website — well, Department of Revenue here — answered enough questions to demonstrate that I knew assorted magic numbers, gave them the credit card information. Five days later my new license arrived by mail. Five years from now I’ll have to go in person because the picture will be too old.

              Can it be abused? If you know enough information. I did my wife’s renewal for her because I know the answers better than she does these days. (Not that I’m going to allow her behind the wheel of a car again ever, absent some dementia breakthroughs.) The state government doesn’t think it’s enough of a problem to worry about much.

              If the feds get paranoid enough they’ll make us stop, I suppose. It’s REAL ID compliant so I can get on airplanes.Report

  7. Chip Daniels says:

    The Right has devolved into being an entirely grievance driven culture war faction. Whatever lofty principles are claimed, they are a sham to conceal the thirst for power, specifically the power to punish their hated outgroups.

    The whining grievance over the search warrant is just the latest in a long line of efforts to achieve the status of the belligerent victim.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “The Right has devolved into being an entirely grievance driven culture war faction. Whatever lofty principles are claimed, they are a sham to conceal the thirst for power, specifically the power to punish their hated outgroups.”

      I am amazed about how many people refuse to recognize this fact. It is just right-wingers/conservatives or dirtbag leftists who obviously hate the Democrats more than they hate the Republicans.* There are lots of well-meaning folks who think that the correct kind of economic populism can melt away all the hatred and recreate FDR’s grand coalition as well.

      *The dirt bag leftie types seem to think they will take over center-left politics in this country if the Democrats disappear.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      What I’ve ooticed is that many political groups want to be the real true majority and a besieged minority at the same time. At least there seems to be a bad case of this in the United States and United Kingdom.Report

  8. Saul Degraw says:

    “For the life of me, I still cannot comprehend the unwavering loyalty so many on the right show towards Donald Trump.”

    He hates the same people they do and he does not pay lip service to any of the old-view on dogwhistles or speaking softly on these hatreds. Trump might be among the least religious Presidents ever but he did appoint a lot of right-wing judges and justices who see themselves as advocates for Christian theocracy in judicial robes.Report

  9. LeeEsq says:

    What manner of sorcery does Donald Trump have that so many people are willing to soil themselves in front of the entire world for him? He isn’t charismatic or have the physical bravery that many of the great 20th century dictators possessed. He is entirely flimflam. He might even be the Devil.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Donald Trump is charismatic in the same way a street prophet, a blowhard in a bar, or a carnival barker is. Many or most people are repulsed and try to stay away but others are drawn in and/or can’t resist looking away from the train wreck. Some of these people have the same views, others just want to gawk and egg on for their own amusement. It is kind of like how the ironic hipsters of Austin (including filmmaker Richard Linklater) thought of Alex Jones as an amusing little pet before Sandy Hook.

      Trump’s lack of polish is entirely the point. Philip H is partially right. His audience was tired of decades of dog whistles and zero action and then comes Trump who is too vulgar and gross to know how to dog whistle and offers the undiluted stuff, and he probably acted on it (even if unintentionally) more than any other President. The only person who may be more effective is DeSantis in this regard.Report

      • Trump’s charisma is that of an old-time tent-revival preacher. The pitch is always the same. “Evil is real! Evil is out there! Evil will tempt you! But I can save you!” He’ll work the crowd to see what their current notion of evil is. People of color? Immigrants? Coastal liberal elites? Big corporations? Hillary Clinton? He’ll contradict himself from show to show, or even within shows, but that’s not important. The message is that evil is real, your fears — whatever they are — are legitimate, but he can save you. Of course, defeating evil is expensive work so we have to pass the collection plates, please give generously.

        So far as I can tell, there isn’t another leading Republican out there who can do it. In part because all of them are opposed to a specific evil, not to an amorphous evil that can take on whatever shape is needed for tonight’s show.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain says:

          +1Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Michael Cain says:

          Which then prompts the disturbing question, why are so many of our pundit and media class, so many of what Saul describes, the materially comfortable shopkeeper class, so many of the senior elder statesmen of the political elite, the Senators, Governors and SCOTUS jurists so eager to fall to the ground in ecstasy at the feet of the latter day Savonarola, this 21st century Cotton Mather?

          Josh Marshall calls them the Dignity Wraiths, people who forsake all reason and common sense and fall under the sway of evil. It sometimes feels like a modern day version of the “Who goes NotSee?” game.Report

          • North in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            Most of the elites are doing it because they’re either afraid of their own voters who like Trump more than they like their elite or they correctly surmise that they can obtain their own goals at the cost of merely their principles and that’s a bargain they’re ready to make.

            As for the voting masses on the right? They despise their elites with a bone deep loathing as they, quite correctly, surmise that their elites merely use the voting masses of the right for their own neoncon, republitarian and corporate executive ends. The only reason they don’t vote left is they, just barely, manage to maintain a loathing of the left that exceeds their loathing of their own side.

            Trump is not of the left and not only vociferously rejects the substantive policies of the right wing elite but also eschews their mannerisms and mantras. He’s the perfect avatar for the right wing voters fury against their own party specifically and everyone else in general.Report

            • InMD in reply to North says:

              My belief is it’s an unfortunate fluke of our 2 party, FPTP voting system. Every first world democracy is going through something like Trump. The difference is that in ours that movement can punch above its weight by capturing 1 of only 2 parties then rely on the inertia of that system to convert most people in the conservative ecosystem into de facto or even enthusiastic supporters.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

                My belief is it’s an unfortunate fluke of our 2 party, FPTP voting system.

                Nope. The GOP has been building to this moment for most of my life. Trump was just a useful mouthpiece to make it happen. Someone would have come along and done this for them eventually.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

                Seconded.
                The American structure of politics and government hasn’t changed since Roosevelt and Eisenhower.

                The foundational prerequisite of liberal democracy, so deep and fundamental that texbooks don’t bother writing but merely assume it, is that The People like each other, and generally want some form of good outcome for the society as a whole.

                In times and places where this doesn’t hold true, we get illiberalism, corruption, and repression.

                And right now, those forces of hatred and bigotry are in ascendancy in the Republican party and hold power in about a dozen states.

                The structure is flawed, but the flaws aren’t what is driving this.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                The base liking Trump seems to be part of the human condition. More feelings than logic and rationality… at least in enough people to move the indifferent majority.

                As for “building to it”, imho that’s a reflection of technology (mass media used to need to appeal to the mass which means the middle), and the fact that gov and who controls it has gotten more and more important over time.

                That last flies in the face of the concept that gov is a force for good, as opposed to just a force.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                This is a rare opportunity where I get to disagree with you! I don’t see many of the other nations having similar Trump problems. Even Bojo in the UK, probably the closest Trump analogue, remains a professional politician and he lacked anything approaching Trumps derangement or frenetic voting base. If anything, I’d say Bojo was more a consequence of the utterly imploded left wing in the UK than a symptom of the incredible ideological collapse of the right that is present in the USA.

                I do think Trump is a uniquely American problem. I would grant that populism, which is certainly an element of Trumpism, is a global phenomena and Trump has certainly harnessed it but I wouldn’t define Trumpism down to merely being populism. No, I think he’s very much a globally unique phenomena, certainly our political duopoly is part of where he comes from but I think he is, predominantly, a consequence not of the duopoly in of itself but of the pervasive ideological decay of one of the two pillars of that duopoly.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

                BOJO grew up an unquestionable member of the British Upper Class and maintains by those standards as they are. Plus he did learn something about sentence construction at the very least. Trump grew up in the shopocracy and with the chip on his shoulder that only a kid from Queens can develop. He was always so close to Manhattan but always so far away.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                Right populism looks different in different countries. I don’t think BoJo/the Tories is the ancillary but something like UKIP, AfD, National Rally, Lega Nord (in current form), etc. might be.

                The difference IMO is that in parliamentary systems the existence of rump Christian Democratic, other parochial tradition-based movements, and smaller, but expressly neoliberal parties allow people to vote conservative without supporting a particular version of it. BoJo, for as mixed and chaotic as his record was, may well have done more than Labor ever could to kill UKIP-type movements post Brexit by eliminating its core policy grievance without turning to another, much uglier type of conservatism that Toryism still rejects.

                I think it’s no coincidence that of other big, established democracies, the closest these movements ever get is the one with a presidential system (France) where there is a possibility of a fully consolidated left versus right, national level election of a single person. Our structure, especially with the weak parties and collapse of the GOP as a responsible institution opens the door to it every 4 years in a way in my observation most others don’t. But for everywhere that post industrialism, globalization, supranational trade agreements, and mass illegal immigration or ‘asylum seekers’ are an issue, there is a Trump or a form of Trump-ism, not just here.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Michael Cain says:

          I would put an old-time tent-revival preacher in league with a street prophet or carnival barker but that is just me.Report

          • Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Think scale — big names out of the American Great Awakenings. Trump’s the equivalent of a Billy Sunday and would like to make it to Billy Graham’s league. Millions of his followers believe. The analogy’s not perfect, none is. Trump’s selling the equivalent of salvation in this life.Report

        • Though the old-time tent-revival preachers at least pretended to be righteous men. Trump figured out that no one cares about that.Report