Mini-Throughput: What the Data Say About Guns

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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55 Responses

  1. Saul Degraw says:

    This is a fair and nuanced article. In the end though, what impedes gun control in the United States is not the data on whether it works or not but the checks and balances nature of our government where the executive and the legislative are separate and where internal rules make everything about horse-trading and a pace of change which would make a tortoise impatient. Negative partisanship and the Iron Law of Institutions makes this worse. The Filibuster lets Manchin and Sinema be co-Presidents effectively. No filibuster means they are just two Senators. Now this is not nothing in a 50-50 Senate. I’d like to state that the current way of being cannot go on forever but there is a lot of ruin in a nation.Report

  2. Burt Likko says:

    [T]he debate over guns is less about crime, murder and suicide than it is about culture.

    Which is why all the information and analysis in the world won’t change policy. I’m coming to believe that the latest False Bromide shared by both parties are promises to Follow The Science, which doesn’t mean that science has nothing to inform policy, but rather that policymakers just don’t care what science has to say. I find Democrats preferable to Republicans on this because Democrats will at least pretend to value science where Republicans sneer that experts are fools simply because they are “experts.” But cherry-picking is a bipartisan hobby engaged in with enthusiasm.

    I really appreciate the candor and critical thought that went into this post. What I take away from it is that at least a part of what our problem is comes from an increasingly impulsive and emotionally-stressed culture atop ready access to guns. Both of these, in turn, are basically cultural phenomena.

    Which brings us back full circle to the insight that leads off the OP. Something — probably several somethings blended together into a cocktail whose potency we are losing the ability to master — makes us more violent than our peers. Guns are one but not the only ingredient in that cocktail.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Burt Likko says:

      IMHO, ending the drug war and reforming our CJ system, especially on the whole prison and post-prison end would probably do more to reduce violence than gun control would.

      We as a society need to stop being so punitive, vindictive, and unwilling to give people a second chance.Report

  3. Patrick says:

    I think we have three positions, not two.

    The first position is much more stringent gun control than countries like Australia, Canada, etc (these are all countries that have more stringent gun control than the US but still very large per capita private firearm ownership). This is increasingly coming closer to “yes, all right already, take the guns away”.

    The second position is the post-Heller retcon crowd who insist (all historical evidence to the contrary) that not just owning guns but carrying them around openly all the time is the only way to a well ordered society and actually what the Founders wanted.

    The last position is everybody else, who is mostly along the lines of, “Gee, this is a pretty bad problem, what are we going to do about it?” And that position, in my observation anyway, has started to shrink pretty rapidly because in the last ten years the answer is, “We’re actually going to strike down more and more gun regulations at the federal level and pass more and more completely crazy pro-gun stuff at the state level”.

    And SCOTUS is about to rule on shall issue vs. may issue and I expect that… will continue to move policy even farther towards pro gun absolutism and farther away from the median position of that third group.

    If we don’t enact some gun reform laws that present at least the appearance of doing something, I’m reasonably certain that the middle group is going to hollow out a lot more towards the first group than the second.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to Patrick says:

      Yeah. When I read “assault weapons: that they be brought into the same legal regime that governs concealed weapons: legal but with a permit required.”, my reaction was “in more and more places that permit is handed out like breath mints.”Report

  4. Jaybird says:

    I think I need “age-adjusted” explained to me.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Jaybird says:

      Simplified version using totally made-up numbers:

      In Florida, people over the age of 50 commit homicide at the rate of 2 per 100,000, and people under the age of 50 commit homicide at the rate of 10 per 100,000. 50% of the population is under the age of 50, so the homicide rate is 0.5 * 2 + 0.5 * 10 = 6 per 100,000.

      In Utah, the respective age-specific homicide rates are 1 and 8, but only 20% of the population is over the age of 50, so the total homicide rate is 0.2 * 1 + 0.8 * 8 = 6.6 per 100,000

      Utah has a higher overall homicide rate, but this is entirely due to the different age structure. To calculate Utah’s age-adjusted homicide rate, we calculate what its homicide rate would be if it had the same population age structure as Florida, i.e. 0.5 * 1 + 0.5 * 8 = 4.5 per 100,000.

      So Utah has a higher raw homicide rate than Florida, but a lower age-adjusted homicide rate.

      When they do it for real, I believe that they calculate age-specific homicide offending rates for every year of age, rather than just for under 50 vs. over 50, but that’s the basic idea.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        It’s also absolutely crucial to adjust for racial demographics. Homicide rates vary so much by race that racial demographics dominate pretty much everything else in terms of driving state-level homicide rates, so any analysis that doesn’t control for race is pretty much worthless.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          The theory which explains this is called “Critical Race Theory”.

          You should look into it.Report

          • Brandon Berg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            I read a whole book on the topic by one of the pioneers of the field, Richard Delgado. I found it deeply unimpressive.Report

            • Brandon Berg in reply to Brandon Berg says:

              To elaborate on this, CRT is not an empirical science. CRT practitioners come up with ideologically pleasing hypotheses, and then simply assert that they’re true without subjecting them to rigorous empirical testing. Often these hypotheses fail to stand up in the face of basic sanity testing.

              It’s essentially social creationism, and it’s on the same intellectual level as the other kind of creationism.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            There is no “the” theory that explains it. There are plenty of ugly theories that we’d both reject. One that impresses me can be found in Sowell’s “Black Rednecks and White Liberals”.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        Thank you for explaining this to me.

        This feels like a shenanigan.Report

        • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

          The ugly reality of it is that murder is a young man’s game, and in a lot of this country it really is a young black man’s game.

          Michael mentions the lead thing and I think that is probably part of it. We’re also an older country than we were in the 70s-90s waves of crime. For that matter Europe is demographically way older. This is all stuff that IMO needs to be factored in.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Jaybird says:

          I don’t think so at all. The raw correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates tells us very little about the effect of gun ownership on homicide rates. Adjusting for age, race, urbanization, and other factors allows us to extract more signal from the noise.

          Multivariable regressions aren’t the best approach, but they’re better than a single-variable regression. What you really want is a study design that exploits exogenous variation in gun laws or availability.

          For example, if there’s a Supreme Court decision that affects gun availability more in some states than others (because some states’ laws were in line with the decision already and others had to change), then that’s gold. We can see whether homicide rates changed more in states whose laws were more affected by the ruling, and that gives a much better estimate of the true causal effect.

          One thing that I think clearly is a shenanigan is the one Mike called out in the original post where they look only at gun deaths instead of all homicides and/or suicides. This obscures the effect of substitution.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

          It’s less “shenanigans” and more “the kind of thing you always get when you try to reduce a statistical comparison down to a single number”.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

          Which feels like the shenanigan, the non-adjusted or the adjusted? I wouldn’t consider either, but I’d say as a general rule:

          The layman points to numbers.
          The hobby-horse “expert” uses univariate analysis.
          The mathematically-oriented social scientist uses multivariate analysis.
          The social scientist who is actually familiar with the issues will use multivariate analysis controlling for the relevant things, always keeping an eye out to revise his theory about what’s relevant.Report

  5. InMD says:

    First, just an excellent, excellent piece. This is what makes OT great and I appreciate you writing it.

    I do have 2 quibbles because of course I do. First, I think to get to better data driven answers the ‘state by state’ approach really needs to give way to more of a zip code by zip code analysis, using state laws for controls wherever possible. Even looking at the Wikipedia entry, two towards the top are MD and DC, both highly regulated blue jurisdictions (DC is still in a post Heller regulatory mess but has given as little as it can get away with, MD is not quite in the NY/NJ/IL/CA tier but is way stricter than anywhere else below the Mason Dixon or the MidWest). The murder rates are driven by a handful of localities, everyone knows exactly where they are, and as long as you aren’t in one your effective risk of being murdered not to mention the rate itself plummets. Not to Western European levels, but I would bet far enough that the US is no longer the obvious outlier. My point is really that the ‘state by state’ can imply even rates of geographic distribution that can be misleading.

    Second, and you hit on this a bit with Australia, but I still really chafe at this idea of calling Western European countries our ‘peer nations’ based on wealth alone. I mean, is Switzerland, an example you use (which interestingly has one of the highest private gun ownership rates in the world) so obviously our peer nation in a way that Haiti is so obviously not? It’s hard for me to think of two places that are overall less like America, albeit both for really different reasons. Anyway underlying this argument is the idea that Western Europe has solved a problem that as best as I can tell they have never really had in the first place. And even then you still have things like the Bataclan attack in France, which to me really undermines the whole ‘only nation where this regularly happens’ thing, even if it happens more here than in those places we most like to compare ourselves to.

    All of that aside though I think this really is the right approach for finding answers, and hopefully improving our situation.Report

    • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

      Your second point gets back to you statements in the other threads about Europeans also having more robust welfare states – for which they tax appropriately – which in turn can mean less social dysfunction.Report

      • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

        Well yea. To me the ‘smoking gun’ pun 100% intended, is less the looser gun laws and more the levels of inequality in several areas of life that we are willing to tolerate but that, say, the Germans never would.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

          Additionally, many of those countries demand a level of social conformity that Americans — especially those of us most likely to point to those nations — would really struggle with.

          Many folks look at the benefits of other countries’ ways of being and never consider the costs.

          “We should all chill like these Italians!” everyone says their first day there.
          By day three they’re fuming that it takes 20 minutes to get a coffee, it comes in 4 ounce cups, and you can’t take it to go.Report

          • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

            That is also a big deal. Sometimes I don’t think we appreciate just how liberal we really are in certain ways. I think I’ve mentioned to you before how much I appreciate the German education model. Would it work here? I have my doubts and a big reason why is the fact that if you are not ‘with the program’ they will apply significant pressure to make you get with it, including in ways that would be unpalatable in a number of different corners in the US.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

              Copenhagen basically has one neighborhood where true freedom of expression is allowed. How many Americans would really want to live that way?

              And it is easy to think, “Well, we’ll just take the good but none of the bad,” but that isn’t how it works… the ‘bad’ is the cost to acquire the good… with most of the folks there not seeing it as so bad and therefore willing to pay it.Report

              • Brandon Berg in reply to Kazzy says:

                What do you mean about Copenhagen? Like there’s a specific neighborhood that’s exempt from censorship or restrictions on protests?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Lookup Christiania… it’s basically a quasi-autonomous hippie commune located within the city that embraces a certain form of radical individualism and self-expression. In broader Danish society, there are both laws and strong social norms that really demand a pretty high level of conformity.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

      To paraphrase Dom Helder Camara:
      “When I point to disparate social behavior by race, they call me insightful; When I explain it, they call me a liberal.”Report

      • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Sure. Of course my liberalism on this gets me to thinking things like implementing the long held up Medicaid expansions in southern red states would probably have a larger, aggregate long term effect on the murder rates in those states than dropping the Stand Your Ground laws. That’s despite the fact that I still think the Stand Your Ground laws are pretty dumb and probably making things a little worse on the margins than they otherwise might be.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

          I don’t like SYG laws, but mostly because it’s a pendulum swing too far. You can restrain prosecutors when it comes to self-defense cases without giving people carte blanche to kill and control the narrative.Report

          • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            That’s about where I am on them too. Though I also don’t think they’re contributing to homicide rates more than on the margins. It’s a great example of a big, visible culture war flashpoint that isn’t particularly bright policy making but I also doubt is moving the needle in any meaningful way in either direction.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

              Recently I heard about ideas to improve health care in the US, and the people putting forth the ideas said they were done trying to make big improvements. No more 15% reduction in costs or 20% improvement in outcomes, because while those numbers are achievable, the political will to make those changes wasn’t there. So they decided on changes that gain 1%-2% improvements, because those are easier to make happen, and since they are easier, more of them can happen, and collectively they add up.

              When it comes to violence in the US, I think we need to be looking at the 1%-2% solutions.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to InMD says:

      I agree w/ both points. And one thing I would add is that the U.S. has always been more violent than its OECD peers. In the second half of the 18th century Pennsylvania had twice the murder rate of London. Other areas were not terribly far behind, but generally the explanation is that Pennsylvania, built upon the bones of Quaker idealism, was the freest of the free. The cost of high levels of freedom was violence from lack of cohesion and hierarchy in the large cities, as well as high levels of alcohol abuse. Really our only peers in this sense are in the New World.

      The other divergence is that the U.S. has a history of African-American slavery and has never fully assimilated all of the descendants of slavery. High murder rates are occurring in cities with those descendants.Report

      • InMD in reply to PD Shaw says:

        I think accepting those premises is critical to getting the conversation to more useful ground. New Orleans will never be Zurich, and not just because of the Cajun cooking.

        Which isn’t to say there’s nothing to be done from a public policy standpoint just that to the extent we’re talking murder we have to be realistic about what is and isn’t possible.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

          To accept this would mean accepting that there is a very deeply engrained pathology running through American culture.
          That is, violence and dysfunction isn’t some strange aberration, but an integral part of the American experience.

          Meaning that all the ills of American history- Slavery, the genocide of the native culture, wars of aggression against our neighbors, class warfare, misogyny, and racism were also not aberrations, but part of our national DNA.

          But of course when people start talking this way, suddenly there is a screeching of brakes and furious backpedaling.

          “Oh, no, there is nothing wrong with American culture! We are the shining city on the hill argle bargle!”

          But then point out that we have nothing like the level of violence that our peer countries have, and the brakes screech again and the car fishtails and whips around to another U-turn. “Oh, we will never be like the Europeans!”Report

  6. Philip H says:

    One interesting correlation to your multi-colored map is that not only do states like Mississippi have higher rates of gun violence, they are also poorer, and (at least as of the recent Census) loosing people to other wealthier states. I know correlation doesn’t prove causation, but if people are loosing economic ground, lack social and community support structures, lack educational opportunities and are watching their kids leave permanently, is it any wonder they get more violent?Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

      Violence has always corresponded with poverty.

      But most often, there is a determined effort to avoid exploring why people are poor in the first place, thus my paraphrase of Helder Camara.Report

  7. Michael Cain says:

    Two initial thoughts about a generally excellent piece.

    The map of murder rates immediately made me think of this map from Business Insider about the happiness rating in states. There are so many maps that generally resemble this one that I have been forced to conclude there is something deeply wrong with much of the South and eastern part of the Midwest.

    One of the rules when I was learning statistics in graduate school applies to that Vox scatter plot: extreme outliers can’t be compared to the rest of the population. The slope of the regression line, in this case, is overwhelmingly due to that single outlier point. Discard it and then we can talk about the relationship between gun ownership rate and gun death rate. (Personal peeve: excluding the US, and just by eye, even a rudimentary residual analysis is going to show a linear model is badly flawed. Nobody wants to do the grunt work of residual analysis these days, they just assume linearity.)Report

    • I see Philip beat me to the basic idea about the map(s).Report

    • Philip H in reply to Michael Cain says:

      I have been forced to conclude there is something deeply wrong with much of the South and eastern part of the Midwest.

      The deeply wrong piece is the political structure down here is set up to keep conservative white men in power and anything – like Medicare expansion – that could advantage someone who isn’t a conservative white man is actively repelled.Report

  8. Oscar Gordon says:

    This is a fantastic bit of yeoman’s work, thank you.Report

  9. North says:

    Wonderful piece and excellent analysis. Well done.Report

  10. Pinky says:

    This is when we need an up-vote so we can say “yeah, what Oscar and North said”.Report

  11. cam says:

    This is a really good piece and I’m grateful for the objective look at the data. I think honestly the other big piece of the puzzle wrt this is American culture that embraces rage and outrage – everything becomes a reason to hate, and those that are hated are depicted as *deserving* to be stomped down, crushed, destroyed. (Even here where the discourse seems to be far less heated, one of the OPs talks about Democrats/liberals in terms that are frankly so extreme, angry and polemical I think it might give Fox News pause). Couple it with tv/movies that glorify the raw power of the guy with gun to fight the system or just wastes his enemies and it’s not so hard to imagine why messed up teens or aggrieved culture warriors reach for weapons.

    My only quibble is with the word ‘rare’ applied to mass shootings. In the past week we’ve had at least 5, two of them just last night: 14 shot in Chattanooga and 13 Philly (before anyone say ‘oh, but that’s Philly’ I live in the suburbs and know the area. South Street is clubs and night life and so one of the most heavily policed areas downtown – most Saturday nights there a cop literally on every block). In my relatively affluent suburb I’ve gotten the ‘school locked down for potential active shooter’ call three times in the past 4 years. Thankfully, there was a gun only twice, and serious mass shooting threat only once – a disgruntled man who had lost a custody battle and decided make everyone feel his pain by mowing down kids coming out to buses, but he was noticed and the police handled it before there were casualties. However, that doesn’t make me less nervous about getting that horrible so many Uvalde parents got.

    Maybe by some statistical measures mass shootings are still rare, but it doesn’t *feel* rare anymore.Report

  12. Pinky says:

    In social sciences, multiple theories can explain prior actions. There are very few opportunities for competing theories to be tested against new data, and even those always have some ambiguity in them.

    Any theory of black violent crime in the US that denies its prevalence can be written off. But there are a lot of possible theories to explain it. Chip made it sound as if there’s only one theory (critical race theory). I was pointing out that there are plenty of theories, including ones that he and I would both find objectionable – and, I’ll note, make unsupported assumptions.

    I like Sowell’s narrative, which connects the culture of northern England / Scotland with the white US redneck culture and ultimately the dominant US black culture. It explains a lot, including the success of slave-ancestry blacks in the northern US before the Great Migration.

    ETA: This was intended as a reply to a comment that’s apparently been deleted, so it got bumped down here. It questioned whether I should dismiss theories simply because they’re ugly. I might as well leave it up anyway.Report