Mini-Throughput: What the Data Say About Guns
As expected, the recent spate of mass shootings has prompted intense debate about gun control. I’m not going to wade too deep into this because, increasingly, the debate over guns is less about crime, murder and suicide than it is about culture. This occurred to me recently when I proposed a compromise on the subject of assault weapons: that they be brought into the same legal regime that governs concealed weapons: legal but with a permit required. What surprised me was that both sides hated this idea. The anti-ASW side wanted them banned period; the pro-ASW side didn’t period. Meeting halfway was unthinkable.
When Republicans politicians send out Christmas cards with their kids holding rifles, that’s not about laws. When a Republican runs for governor on the platform of “Jesus, Guns and Babies”, she’s not opening a debate on gun control. What they are doing is a kind of virtue-signaling, showing that they are “one of you” with “you” being defined as gun owners. And when Democratic politicians focus on never-never bans of weapons that are responsible for only a few percentage points of gun violence, that’s not really about the gun either. It’s virtue signaling that they are one of the “you” that want “military style” guns to disappear.
However, I thought I would turn toward the debate over guns as a scientist and see what the data actually say about gun control, gun ownership and gun deaths. A lot of other people have done this, but usually canted toward one particular side or another. I’m not unbiased. I have a fairly strong pro-second amendment stance. I am extremely dubious of gun control both as a matter of civil liberty and as a solution to the problem of gun violence. My position is not on the extreme edge — I support background checks, red flag laws and child safety measures. I am open to the idea of raising the age at which guns can be purchased or having an extra measure on so-called assault rifles.
But I’m going to try to be as objective as possible, to look at the data as disapassionately as I can. I don’t think the zealots will be persuaded — anti-gun folks will still to ban them no matter what the data say and militia-types will oppose any gun control no matter what the data say. To them, these are moral issues, not pragmatic ones. But there is a large squishy middle on this debate. If you’re looking for someone to confirm your priors on this, you’re in the wrong place. If you’re looking for someone to claim they have the absolute answers either way, you’re in the wrong place. The data on this subject are … murky at best. The science, such as it is, is not nearly as conclusive or as sweeping as either side would like. But if you’re looking for some skepticism on big sweeping claims about the link — or lack thereof — between gun control and gun violence — I’m hoping I can help generate a little more light and a little less noise.1
No one is ever all right or all wrong. No piece of data ever ends an argument. Policy debates are more like basketball games. Some arguments are three-pointers. Some are foul shots. And some are complete bricks. My purpose here is not to give you the final score because what’s a three-pointer to someone may just be a foul shot to you. But I’m hoping to identify which arguments are bricks and shouldn’t be part of the debate.
Claim: Other countries don’t have this level of violence.
What motivated this post was a strange thread by Andrew Follett which tried to argue that the US is not an outlier on gun violence and that we have been lied to by the media. How does he claim this? By noting that out of 97 countries surveyed in a recent study, the US is 64th in mass shootings and 65th in murder rate.
The problem is that while this claim is literally true it’s … a really strange thing to be boasting about. It’s the equivalent of a UNC coach boasting about beating a 16-seed in the tournament. Almost all of the countries that have higher murder rates than us are far less wealthy and far less developed. Countries with comparable murder rates to our 6.3 per 100,000 are Bolivia, Ukraine, Cabo Verde, Haiti and Afghanistan. We trail countries like Iran (2.5), Rwanda (2.6) and Ghana (2.1). Our peer countries have murder rates that are a fraction of ours: Canada is at 2.0. France at 1.2, the UK at 1.2, Switzerland at 0.5.
This comparison is even more egregious when you talk about mass shootings. Mass shootings are, by their nature, rare. And so they are subject to small number stats. Follett makes a big deal of France having had more mass shootings than the US per capita, but the data he cites were compiled immediately after the Charlie Hebdo massacre and before the recent uptick in mass shootings within the United States.
I know this is stating the bleeding obvious. But sometimes we need to start with the obvious. Yes, the US is an outlier from similar countries in both overall gun violence and mass shootings. We have a problem.
Claim: This disparity is because the US has so many guns.
The connection between gun ownership and gun deaths is a lot trickier to pick out than most people think. There’s a graph that people like to circulate that shows that a country’s gun death rate closely tracks its gun ownership rate, shown below.
This graph is misleading, however. It includes both suicide and murders, but only if those are committed with a gun. This a problem because some countries, like South Korea, have astronomical suicide rates but very few of those suicides involve a gun. If you plot overall suicide rate against gun ownership, there is no connection whatsoever. Suicide is far more a function of culture and circumstance than it is of gun ownership. That being said, there are reason to believe that limiting access to guns — particularly for adolescents — could drop the suicide rate. Israel, for example, saw a big drop in suicides after restricting soldiers’ access to weapons. Suicide tends to be impulsive and guns tend to make that impulse final.
The connection between gun ownership and murder is also unclear because, again, you can’t just ignore murders when they don’t involve a gun. In the United States, two-thirds of murders involve a gun. In other countries, only about one-third do. If you plot total murder rate again gun ownership, the correlation shown in the graph above completely disappears. What you end up with is a bunch of countries with low murder rates and low gun ownerships rates that are not correlated at all … and the United States being a massive outlier on both axes.
Connecting a cloud of random data to one outlier is not analysis; it’s bias confirmation. If you can drop literally one data point and your thesis collapses, it’s not supported by the evidence. I’m not saying gun ownership isn’t a big part of the problem; I’m saying that this is very difficult to argue by comparing the US to other countries. Some countries have lot of guns and few murders. Others have few guns and lots of murders. There does not seem to be a connection between the two unless you include the United States. We are an outlier in every sense.
Claim: The violent places in United States all have strict gun control laws. Continuing with Follet’s thread, he breaks out the tired trope that violence mostly occurs in Democratically-controlled cities with strict gun control laws. He contrasts this against Wyoming which has high gun ownership and a low homicide rate.
This is frankly, garbage. First of all, guns can move. The data say so. At least half the guns used to commit crimes in Chicago, for example, come from outside the state entirely.
Second, if you look at things on a state level, the states with the highest murder rates are almost all red states. Louisiana, Missouri, Mississippi, Arkansas, South Carolina, Alabama and Tennessee lead the pack before Illinois shows up. California is 27th on the list. New York is 32nd. Just look at this map and tell me if anything jumps out at you.
But it might actually be worse than that. The CDC, noting that murder is generally committed by younger people, has an age-adjusted table. On this table, Wyoming is actually worse than New York. Because comparing a sparsely populated rural state with no major cities to a state with several big cities isn’t exactly fair.
Now does this mean that gun ownership is driving murder rates? Not necessarily. The state-to-state correlation of gun ownership to murder rate is as murky as the country-to-country data, with no obvious correlations jumping out until you start adjusting for confounding factors. It is broadly true that gun violence tends to happen in cities while most legal gun owners don’t live in cities. And I agree with Follett that cracking down on straw purchases and other illegal sales would be something both sides could agree on and might do some good. But the gun control advocates would argue — not unreasonably — that this is a game of whack-a-mole. There are a lot of avenues for guns to find their ways into the wrong hands.
Claim: Mass shooting are happening more often. One of the problems in discussing mass shootings is that the definition of what constitutes a mass shooting is slippery. You may have seen the claim that there have 27 shootings at schools just this year. Or some of your friends may have posted a long list of schools on Facebook where shootings supposedly occurred. These claims are very misleading because the database they use includes any shooting near a school in which someone is wounded. So if two drug dealers shoot it out in parking lost next to school at midnight in July, that constitutes a “school shooting”. You may also have heard that there have been over 200 mass shootings in the US just this year. But this is also a bit misleading. This comes from the Gun Violence Archive, which classifies any shooting in which four people are injured or killed as a mass shooting, thus including hundreds of incidents that are just ordinary gun violence, mostly related to the drug trade. That’s not what most people think of when the phrase “mass shooting” pops up.
While I’ve been critical of the Mother Jones database on mass shootings in the past, specifically that their pre-2000 data is almost certainly incomplete, it uses a definition of mass shooting that is closer to what most of us think of as a mass shooting. They define it as four or more people killed in a rampage where the shooting is not related to a robbery or gang violence. And their data shows that mass shootings are increasing, both in frequency and lethality. They increased a little in the 2000’s and early 2010’s, but have spiked dramatically in the last five years. So while mass shootings — at least as conventionally understood — are still rare and constitute less only a few percentage points of gun violence, they are, in fact, increasing, even using the strictest criteria.
Claim: Mass shootings dramatically increased since the assault weapons ban expired. The graphic I’ve seen is that they dropped 43% after the ASW ban was implemented in 1994 and increased 239% since it expired in 2004. Joe Biden has made this claim and Politifact has rated it as mostly true.
I disagree.
The paper on which this claim is based is behind a firewall but does a lot of running of trend lines through very noisy data, combining 15 years of post-ban data into one group and deciding that the recent spike reflects a trend. It assumes that the databases they use accurately reflect the number of mass shootings in the 80’s and 90’s, which they don’t. For example, their graph appears to show no mass shootings from 1994 to 1997. This despite the fact that the Pearl High School Shooting, the Fairchild AFB shooting, the Phelon Company shooting and several other shootings occurred during this time. Several of these are in the Mother Jones database (Pearl isn’t because only three people were killed). It also classifies mass shootings as using assault weapons if any semi-automatic weapons were used, which means that the Virginia Tech killing, which involved handguns, is classified as an assault weapons killing. Columbine, which happened while the assault weapons ban was in place and did not use assault weapons, is also classified as using assault weapons.
The bulk of research, as noted in the RAND metastudy — more on that in a minute — is inconclusive at best. This has been the general conclusion of researchers on the subject of the assault weapons ban.2
Claim: All the studies show gun control works. This phrasing should immediately trigger your radar. “All the studies” never show anything. There are many many studies that show that gun control measures, however defined, work. But there are almost as many that show that they don’t. This field is difficult to study and subject to large biases and complications because gun violence is not monocausal.
The only way to sort through the noise is to do a meta-study, to combine all the research and see what patterns merge. The National Research Council did this in 2004 and concluded … that more research was needed. There was no clear data for or against. The RAND corporation did another meta-study in 2018. Their conclusion was that there was strong evidence to support background checks, waiting periods, child safety protections, the repeal of Stand Your Grand laws and denying weapons to domestic abusers as ways to bring down gun deaths. Other policies were not clearly supported.
Claim: But a study in Connecticut showed a gun registration law made homicides plunge. See above. You can always find one study of one state in one particular period of time that will give you the conclusion you want. But other states have not had similar results. The Connecticut study found that homicides dropped 40% … relative to a synthetic Connecticut: a hypothetical state cobbled together from other states that supposedly represents what Connecticut would have been like without the gun control law. There have been significant and valid criticisms of this method. I would not base policy on it.
Claim: More guns means less crime. This is the claim advanced by John Lott’s 1998 book and often touted by pro-gun groups. This claims is now 24 years old and not one but two major meta-studies have failed to find the same result.
Claim: Guns are used defensively 2.5 million times a year. This claim comes from the 1994 Kleck survey, which polled 5000 people to see how many had used guns defensively in the previous year and extrapolated that to the entire nation. This survey has been a source of intense debate over methodology and replication. Other surveys have estimated the number of defensive uses as anywhere from 100,000 cases a year to five million, meaning the stat is almost meaningless. The problem with this area of research is that, because police reports are rarely filed when a gun is used defensively, there is no objective information. You’re relying almost entirely on what people say in response to surveys. And what they can say can reflect reality. Or it can reflect what they think happened or how they rationalize what happened or can be entirely fictional. Just look at the Kyle Rittenhouse trial: most legal analysts and the jury concluded that he used his gun in self defense. But they also noted that he helped create the dangerous situation in the first place. Is that a clear and unequivocal defensive use of a weapon? Or do we need to qualify it by the circumstances? I certainly know how he would describes it in a phone survey.
As it happens, I think the number is probably closer to Kleck’s estimate than the lowball estimates. But I would say this number is far too uncertain to be used to inform public debate.
Claim: Gun ownership is relatively new thing. Americans owned very few guns until the 20th century.. This claim is at least partially based on a now-discredited book.
Claim: Australia banned many guns and their homicide rate went down
This claim is literally true. In the wake of the Port Arthur massacre, Australia enacted tight restrictions on gun ownership and bought back over 600,000 weapons. In the 25 years since, Australia’s murder rate was cut in half and there has been only one mass shooting.
However, this isn’t as meaningful as it looks. Australia has a 15th of our population. Even if they had as many mass shooting as the United States, you would expect maybe one a decade. Furthermore, Australia’s drop in murder rate was part of a global trend. In the United States, the murder rate over that period of time dropped almost 40%. The UK saw a 60% drop. France saw a 40% drop. Almost every developed country in the world saw huge drops in crime starting in the early- to mid-90’s.
No one knows why this happened. There are many many theories. I am leaning more and more toward the lead hypothesis — that removing lead from our air, food, water and fuel resulted in a generation with less brain damage and better impulse control. But years of research have yet to reach a firm conclusion.
The point here is that Australia did see a drop after their gun buyback.3 But they were not unusual in that regard and not an outlier in that regard. This isn’t anywhere close to the slam dunk people seem to think it is.
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This is just a partial list of some of the more prominent claims. But I wrote to illustrate just how tricky this debate is and how dishonestly some of the representation of the data are. It’s not just that simple. It never is.
As stated above, I am broadly on board with the policies identified by the Rand Corporation as effective. The bulk of the evidence persuades me that these would help. But there is little evidence that they would be a panacea or drop us down to levels of violence compatible with Western Europe. As I stated in my last piece on the subject, whatever is causing this has much deeper roots than gun access.
- I’m also not going to rate claims as “true” or “false” or “four Pinocchios” or “three Baron Munchausens” because it’s rare that claims are made in this context that are absolutely false. There are vast differences in interpretation, significant problems in methodology and often unclear implications for policy.
- I will note that this is typical of Politifact. The one study that confirms their biases is mentioned first while the more numerous and comprehensive studies are mentioned as an afterthought.
- Although compliance with said buyback was, at best, 50%, and probably lower.
This is a fair and nuanced article. In the end though, what impedes gun control in the United States is not the data on whether it works or not but the checks and balances nature of our government where the executive and the legislative are separate and where internal rules make everything about horse-trading and a pace of change which would make a tortoise impatient. Negative partisanship and the Iron Law of Institutions makes this worse. The Filibuster lets Manchin and Sinema be co-Presidents effectively. No filibuster means they are just two Senators. Now this is not nothing in a 50-50 Senate. I’d like to state that the current way of being cannot go on forever but there is a lot of ruin in a nation.Report
Which is why all the information and analysis in the world won’t change policy. I’m coming to believe that the latest False Bromide shared by both parties are promises to Follow The Science, which doesn’t mean that science has nothing to inform policy, but rather that policymakers just don’t care what science has to say. I find Democrats preferable to Republicans on this because Democrats will at least pretend to value science where Republicans sneer that experts are fools simply because they are “experts.” But cherry-picking is a bipartisan hobby engaged in with enthusiasm.
I really appreciate the candor and critical thought that went into this post. What I take away from it is that at least a part of what our problem is comes from an increasingly impulsive and emotionally-stressed culture atop ready access to guns. Both of these, in turn, are basically cultural phenomena.
Which brings us back full circle to the insight that leads off the OP. Something — probably several somethings blended together into a cocktail whose potency we are losing the ability to master — makes us more violent than our peers. Guns are one but not the only ingredient in that cocktail.Report
IMHO, ending the drug war and reforming our CJ system, especially on the whole prison and post-prison end would probably do more to reduce violence than gun control would.
We as a society need to stop being so punitive, vindictive, and unwilling to give people a second chance.Report
If you are white, and upper middle class or upperclass you get a ton of second, third and fourth chances. lower class or a person of color, not so much.Report
Because we are punitive & vindictive and structural racism is a thing.Report
I think we have three positions, not two.
The first position is much more stringent gun control than countries like Australia, Canada, etc (these are all countries that have more stringent gun control than the US but still very large per capita private firearm ownership). This is increasingly coming closer to “yes, all right already, take the guns away”.
The second position is the post-Heller retcon crowd who insist (all historical evidence to the contrary) that not just owning guns but carrying them around openly all the time is the only way to a well ordered society and actually what the Founders wanted.
The last position is everybody else, who is mostly along the lines of, “Gee, this is a pretty bad problem, what are we going to do about it?” And that position, in my observation anyway, has started to shrink pretty rapidly because in the last ten years the answer is, “We’re actually going to strike down more and more gun regulations at the federal level and pass more and more completely crazy pro-gun stuff at the state level”.
And SCOTUS is about to rule on shall issue vs. may issue and I expect that… will continue to move policy even farther towards pro gun absolutism and farther away from the median position of that third group.
If we don’t enact some gun reform laws that present at least the appearance of doing something, I’m reasonably certain that the middle group is going to hollow out a lot more towards the first group than the second.Report
Yeah. When I read “assault weapons: that they be brought into the same legal regime that governs concealed weapons: legal but with a permit required.”, my reaction was “in more and more places that permit is handed out like breath mints.”Report
I think I need “age-adjusted” explained to me.Report
Simplified version using totally made-up numbers:
In Florida, people over the age of 50 commit homicide at the rate of 2 per 100,000, and people under the age of 50 commit homicide at the rate of 10 per 100,000. 50% of the population is under the age of 50, so the homicide rate is 0.5 * 2 + 0.5 * 10 = 6 per 100,000.
In Utah, the respective age-specific homicide rates are 1 and 8, but only 20% of the population is over the age of 50, so the total homicide rate is 0.2 * 1 + 0.8 * 8 = 6.6 per 100,000
Utah has a higher overall homicide rate, but this is entirely due to the different age structure. To calculate Utah’s age-adjusted homicide rate, we calculate what its homicide rate would be if it had the same population age structure as Florida, i.e. 0.5 * 1 + 0.5 * 8 = 4.5 per 100,000.
So Utah has a higher raw homicide rate than Florida, but a lower age-adjusted homicide rate.
When they do it for real, I believe that they calculate age-specific homicide offending rates for every year of age, rather than just for under 50 vs. over 50, but that’s the basic idea.Report
It’s also absolutely crucial to adjust for racial demographics. Homicide rates vary so much by race that racial demographics dominate pretty much everything else in terms of driving state-level homicide rates, so any analysis that doesn’t control for race is pretty much worthless.Report
The theory which explains this is called “Critical Race Theory”.
You should look into it.Report
I read a whole book on the topic by one of the pioneers of the field, Richard Delgado. I found it deeply unimpressive.Report
To elaborate on this, CRT is not an empirical science. CRT practitioners come up with ideologically pleasing hypotheses, and then simply assert that they’re true without subjecting them to rigorous empirical testing. Often these hypotheses fail to stand up in the face of basic sanity testing.
It’s essentially social creationism, and it’s on the same intellectual level as the other kind of creationism.Report
There is no “the” theory that explains it. There are plenty of ugly theories that we’d both reject. One that impresses me can be found in Sowell’s “Black Rednecks and White Liberals”.Report
Thank you for explaining this to me.
This feels like a shenanigan.Report
The ugly reality of it is that murder is a young man’s game, and in a lot of this country it really is a young black man’s game.
Michael mentions the lead thing and I think that is probably part of it. We’re also an older country than we were in the 70s-90s waves of crime. For that matter Europe is demographically way older. This is all stuff that IMO needs to be factored in.Report
I don’t think so at all. The raw correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates tells us very little about the effect of gun ownership on homicide rates. Adjusting for age, race, urbanization, and other factors allows us to extract more signal from the noise.
Multivariable regressions aren’t the best approach, but they’re better than a single-variable regression. What you really want is a study design that exploits exogenous variation in gun laws or availability.
For example, if there’s a Supreme Court decision that affects gun availability more in some states than others (because some states’ laws were in line with the decision already and others had to change), then that’s gold. We can see whether homicide rates changed more in states whose laws were more affected by the ruling, and that gives a much better estimate of the true causal effect.
One thing that I think clearly is a shenanigan is the one Mike called out in the original post where they look only at gun deaths instead of all homicides and/or suicides. This obscures the effect of substitution.Report
It feels like the n is so very small that to reach a conclusion based on it is automatically going to lead to an error, though.
Even with additional variables piled on top.Report
It’s less “shenanigans” and more “the kind of thing you always get when you try to reduce a statistical comparison down to a single number”.Report
Very trueReport
Which feels like the shenanigan, the non-adjusted or the adjusted? I wouldn’t consider either, but I’d say as a general rule:
The layman points to numbers.
The hobby-horse “expert” uses univariate analysis.
The mathematically-oriented social scientist uses multivariate analysis.
The social scientist who is actually familiar with the issues will use multivariate analysis controlling for the relevant things, always keeping an eye out to revise his theory about what’s relevant.Report
There’s no point discussing Jaybird’s feelings. If he has a point, he can try to explain it.Report
You can always tell when this guy’s had a bad day at the office.Report
Actually, I’m having a pretty good day at the office today. Got a lot of work done already, my current project is going so well I’ll probably knock off early once it’s finished.
But thanks for your concern.Report
First, just an excellent, excellent piece. This is what makes OT great and I appreciate you writing it.
I do have 2 quibbles because of course I do. First, I think to get to better data driven answers the ‘state by state’ approach really needs to give way to more of a zip code by zip code analysis, using state laws for controls wherever possible. Even looking at the Wikipedia entry, two towards the top are MD and DC, both highly regulated blue jurisdictions (DC is still in a post Heller regulatory mess but has given as little as it can get away with, MD is not quite in the NY/NJ/IL/CA tier but is way stricter than anywhere else below the Mason Dixon or the MidWest). The murder rates are driven by a handful of localities, everyone knows exactly where they are, and as long as you aren’t in one your effective risk of being murdered not to mention the rate itself plummets. Not to Western European levels, but I would bet far enough that the US is no longer the obvious outlier. My point is really that the ‘state by state’ can imply even rates of geographic distribution that can be misleading.
Second, and you hit on this a bit with Australia, but I still really chafe at this idea of calling Western European countries our ‘peer nations’ based on wealth alone. I mean, is Switzerland, an example you use (which interestingly has one of the highest private gun ownership rates in the world) so obviously our peer nation in a way that Haiti is so obviously not? It’s hard for me to think of two places that are overall less like America, albeit both for really different reasons. Anyway underlying this argument is the idea that Western Europe has solved a problem that as best as I can tell they have never really had in the first place. And even then you still have things like the Bataclan attack in France, which to me really undermines the whole ‘only nation where this regularly happens’ thing, even if it happens more here than in those places we most like to compare ourselves to.
All of that aside though I think this really is the right approach for finding answers, and hopefully improving our situation.Report
Your second point gets back to you statements in the other threads about Europeans also having more robust welfare states – for which they tax appropriately – which in turn can mean less social dysfunction.Report
Well yea. To me the ‘smoking gun’ pun 100% intended, is less the looser gun laws and more the levels of inequality in several areas of life that we are willing to tolerate but that, say, the Germans never would.Report
Additionally, many of those countries demand a level of social conformity that Americans — especially those of us most likely to point to those nations — would really struggle with.
Many folks look at the benefits of other countries’ ways of being and never consider the costs.
“We should all chill like these Italians!” everyone says their first day there.
By day three they’re fuming that it takes 20 minutes to get a coffee, it comes in 4 ounce cups, and you can’t take it to go.Report
That is also a big deal. Sometimes I don’t think we appreciate just how liberal we really are in certain ways. I think I’ve mentioned to you before how much I appreciate the German education model. Would it work here? I have my doubts and a big reason why is the fact that if you are not ‘with the program’ they will apply significant pressure to make you get with it, including in ways that would be unpalatable in a number of different corners in the US.Report
Copenhagen basically has one neighborhood where true freedom of expression is allowed. How many Americans would really want to live that way?
And it is easy to think, “Well, we’ll just take the good but none of the bad,” but that isn’t how it works… the ‘bad’ is the cost to acquire the good… with most of the folks there not seeing it as so bad and therefore willing to pay it.Report
What do you mean about Copenhagen? Like there’s a specific neighborhood that’s exempt from censorship or restrictions on protests?Report
Lookup Christiania… it’s basically a quasi-autonomous hippie commune located within the city that embraces a certain form of radical individualism and self-expression. In broader Danish society, there are both laws and strong social norms that really demand a pretty high level of conformity.Report
To paraphrase Dom Helder Camara:
“When I point to disparate social behavior by race, they call me insightful; When I explain it, they call me a liberal.”Report
Sure. Of course my liberalism on this gets me to thinking things like implementing the long held up Medicaid expansions in southern red states would probably have a larger, aggregate long term effect on the murder rates in those states than dropping the Stand Your Ground laws. That’s despite the fact that I still think the Stand Your Ground laws are pretty dumb and probably making things a little worse on the margins than they otherwise might be.Report
I don’t like SYG laws, but mostly because it’s a pendulum swing too far. You can restrain prosecutors when it comes to self-defense cases without giving people carte blanche to kill and control the narrative.Report
That’s about where I am on them too. Though I also don’t think they’re contributing to homicide rates more than on the margins. It’s a great example of a big, visible culture war flashpoint that isn’t particularly bright policy making but I also doubt is moving the needle in any meaningful way in either direction.Report
Recently I heard about ideas to improve health care in the US, and the people putting forth the ideas said they were done trying to make big improvements. No more 15% reduction in costs or 20% improvement in outcomes, because while those numbers are achievable, the political will to make those changes wasn’t there. So they decided on changes that gain 1%-2% improvements, because those are easier to make happen, and since they are easier, more of them can happen, and collectively they add up.
When it comes to violence in the US, I think we need to be looking at the 1%-2% solutions.Report
Maybe so.Report
what do you think those would be?Report
“what do you think those would be?”
1) Fix the NICS reporting system so fewer prohibited people fall through the cracks.
2) Bump the age for semi-auto long guns to 21.
3) Dial back / end the WOD.
4) Focus more on criminal rehab than punishment.
5) Make it easier to seal a criminal record so it stops haunting a person.
3, 4, & 5 are less about rampage killers and more about generalized violence.
I could possibly come up with more…Report
I agree w/ both points. And one thing I would add is that the U.S. has always been more violent than its OECD peers. In the second half of the 18th century Pennsylvania had twice the murder rate of London. Other areas were not terribly far behind, but generally the explanation is that Pennsylvania, built upon the bones of Quaker idealism, was the freest of the free. The cost of high levels of freedom was violence from lack of cohesion and hierarchy in the large cities, as well as high levels of alcohol abuse. Really our only peers in this sense are in the New World.
The other divergence is that the U.S. has a history of African-American slavery and has never fully assimilated all of the descendants of slavery. High murder rates are occurring in cities with those descendants.Report
I think accepting those premises is critical to getting the conversation to more useful ground. New Orleans will never be Zurich, and not just because of the Cajun cooking.
Which isn’t to say there’s nothing to be done from a public policy standpoint just that to the extent we’re talking murder we have to be realistic about what is and isn’t possible.Report
To accept this would mean accepting that there is a very deeply engrained pathology running through American culture.
That is, violence and dysfunction isn’t some strange aberration, but an integral part of the American experience.
Meaning that all the ills of American history- Slavery, the genocide of the native culture, wars of aggression against our neighbors, class warfare, misogyny, and racism were also not aberrations, but part of our national DNA.
But of course when people start talking this way, suddenly there is a screeching of brakes and furious backpedaling.
“Oh, no, there is nothing wrong with American culture! We are the shining city on the hill argle bargle!”
But then point out that we have nothing like the level of violence that our peer countries have, and the brakes screech again and the car fishtails and whips around to another U-turn. “Oh, we will never be like the Europeans!”Report
I think you’re confusing InMD with a strawman in a tricorn hat.Report
No, I’m agreeing with him.
I’m just pointing out what sort conclusion is reached by accepting the premises.Report
One interesting correlation to your multi-colored map is that not only do states like Mississippi have higher rates of gun violence, they are also poorer, and (at least as of the recent Census) loosing people to other wealthier states. I know correlation doesn’t prove causation, but if people are loosing economic ground, lack social and community support structures, lack educational opportunities and are watching their kids leave permanently, is it any wonder they get more violent?Report
Violence has always corresponded with poverty.
But most often, there is a determined effort to avoid exploring why people are poor in the first place, thus my paraphrase of Helder Camara.Report
Two initial thoughts about a generally excellent piece.
The map of murder rates immediately made me think of this map from Business Insider about the happiness rating in states. There are so many maps that generally resemble this one that I have been forced to conclude there is something deeply wrong with much of the South and eastern part of the Midwest.
One of the rules when I was learning statistics in graduate school applies to that Vox scatter plot: extreme outliers can’t be compared to the rest of the population. The slope of the regression line, in this case, is overwhelmingly due to that single outlier point. Discard it and then we can talk about the relationship between gun ownership rate and gun death rate. (Personal peeve: excluding the US, and just by eye, even a rudimentary residual analysis is going to show a linear model is badly flawed. Nobody wants to do the grunt work of residual analysis these days, they just assume linearity.)Report
I see Philip beat me to the basic idea about the map(s).Report
The deeply wrong piece is the political structure down here is set up to keep conservative white men in power and anything – like Medicare expansion – that could advantage someone who isn’t a conservative white man is actively repelled.Report
This is a fantastic bit of yeoman’s work, thank you.Report
Wonderful piece and excellent analysis. Well done.Report
This is when we need an up-vote so we can say “yeah, what Oscar and North said”.Report
This is a really good piece and I’m grateful for the objective look at the data. I think honestly the other big piece of the puzzle wrt this is American culture that embraces rage and outrage – everything becomes a reason to hate, and those that are hated are depicted as *deserving* to be stomped down, crushed, destroyed. (Even here where the discourse seems to be far less heated, one of the OPs talks about Democrats/liberals in terms that are frankly so extreme, angry and polemical I think it might give Fox News pause). Couple it with tv/movies that glorify the raw power of the guy with gun to fight the system or just wastes his enemies and it’s not so hard to imagine why messed up teens or aggrieved culture warriors reach for weapons.
My only quibble is with the word ‘rare’ applied to mass shootings. In the past week we’ve had at least 5, two of them just last night: 14 shot in Chattanooga and 13 Philly (before anyone say ‘oh, but that’s Philly’ I live in the suburbs and know the area. South Street is clubs and night life and so one of the most heavily policed areas downtown – most Saturday nights there a cop literally on every block). In my relatively affluent suburb I’ve gotten the ‘school locked down for potential active shooter’ call three times in the past 4 years. Thankfully, there was a gun only twice, and serious mass shooting threat only once – a disgruntled man who had lost a custody battle and decided make everyone feel his pain by mowing down kids coming out to buses, but he was noticed and the police handled it before there were casualties. However, that doesn’t make me less nervous about getting that horrible so many Uvalde parents got.
Maybe by some statistical measures mass shootings are still rare, but it doesn’t *feel* rare anymore.Report
In social sciences, multiple theories can explain prior actions. There are very few opportunities for competing theories to be tested against new data, and even those always have some ambiguity in them.
Any theory of black violent crime in the US that denies its prevalence can be written off. But there are a lot of possible theories to explain it. Chip made it sound as if there’s only one theory (critical race theory). I was pointing out that there are plenty of theories, including ones that he and I would both find objectionable – and, I’ll note, make unsupported assumptions.
I like Sowell’s narrative, which connects the culture of northern England / Scotland with the white US redneck culture and ultimately the dominant US black culture. It explains a lot, including the success of slave-ancestry blacks in the northern US before the Great Migration.
ETA: This was intended as a reply to a comment that’s apparently been deleted, so it got bumped down here. It questioned whether I should dismiss theories simply because they’re ugly. I might as well leave it up anyway.Report