Government By Performativeness is a Failure

Kristin Devine

Kristin has humbly retired as Ordinary Times' friendly neighborhood political whipping girl to focus on culture and gender issues. She lives in a wildlife refuge in rural Washington state with too many children and way too many animals. There's also a blog which most people would very much disapprove of https://atomicfeminist.com/

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423 Responses

  1. Murali says:

    Left-wing policies in American cities have spectacularly failed by all but the most generous of measures.

    I’m not a fan of left wing policies, but this article does not actually show what it claims to show. The mere fact that the poorest and most crime-ridden cities are run by democrats doesn’t say much. After all, most cities are run by democrats.

    Furthermore, in order to show how the policies caused the crime and poverty. For this you need longitudinal studies which track these measures over time and contrast them with cities where right wing policies were implemented.

    You also have to be careful in measuring poverty. If poor people leave rural and suburban areas to move to cities, this could worsen poverty rates in cities even if left-wing policies actually help the poor more. So, what you would have to do is not just track aggregate poverty but also track welfare indicators for individuals or households over time.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Murali says:

      It’s not starting from “poorest and most-crime ridden” and then wandering over to “democrats are in charge”.

      It’s starting from San Francisco.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Murali says:

      “The mere fact that the poorest and most crime-ridden cities are run by democrats doesn’t say much.”

      lol

      tired: “if we elected Democrats then they’d solve the problems that people have in cities!”
      wired: “cities are just garbage hellholes that suck. we should all live in them.”Report

    • Zane in reply to Murali says:

      What are the policies that will fix the failing schools and the stroller- and carseat-bound innocent babies dying across the US? Kristin does not tell us.

      “Throw the woke fascists out!”, seems a bit weak as a solution, especially because that’s exactly what happened in San Francisco. What should the new school board do?

      Kristin never tells us what her preferred policies are. She has told us other things. Wokism = fascism. The inevitable consequence of recognizing trans people is a trail of victimized children. Calling gay people “groomers” is fine because the fear of being equated to pedophiles might split the LGB from the T. Government shouldn’t provide food stamps, social security, Medicare, and subsidized day care because religious organizations have proven they help the poor so much efficiently and effectively. (Maybe we could put religious organizations in charge of child protective services, too? Though perhaps their track record is not as strong as we would like.)

      Are murder rates so high because we need more guns in the hands of civilians? Unlicensed concealed carry might just encourage the gamblers to risk their luck if contemplating a mass murder, so maybe we need to more strongly encourage open carry in churches and shopping centers?

      When women can be charged with murder for having an abortion we might see an improvement in 4th grade reading comprehension? The mechanism might be a bit of a mystery, but if it helps… Or maybe it’s a lack of Ivermectin?

      Yes, I’m being silly. At least I think I am. She only tells us what she hates, not what she wants.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Zane says:

        “It is demonstrable,” said he, “that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for all being created for an end, all is necessarily for the best end.”

        And the people who think that maybe we’d be better off if we didn’t have a compromised immune system probably need to log off for a bit and touch grass. Maybe call their ma.Report

        • Zane in reply to Jaybird says:

          I’m not sure how to read your Candide quote in this context, Jaybird. Are you saying that my questioning of Kristin is simply an argument for doing nothing because I believe that the current state of things is inevitable (and fine)?

          I am genuinely curious about what policies she supports. We need ideas.

          I am a skeptic, though. The problems of our cities (and schools) are mostly down to structural things that local governments have little to no ability to affect. Those structural things (the national and local economy, tax structures, municipal fragmentation, and state regulations) *are* things that we can attempt to address. We don’t address them because we stubbornly cling to the idea that these are local problems, so locals should fix them (especially when those locals are not ourselves).

          After the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, MO, there was some attention paid to the structure of suburban Saint Louis and how that structure distorted policing in the area. Simply put, Saint Louis County has 88 municipalities. Many of them are tiny. Each has to provide the range of city services expected of a city. This leads to enormous inefficiencies as each tiny place has police, fire, road maintenance–the whole raft of things. Because many of the municipalities cannot raise enough revenue to pay for those services, the suburbs relied on fines and court costs to supplement tax revenue. This means suburban Saint Louis has a very heavy police presence, and city courts were incentivized to extract as much revenue as possible. This creates misery for locals, especially the poor.

          No elected official of one of those tiny communities, no matter how virtuous, has the ability to change those structural factors to improve life for the residents of their city and region. Who can? The state of Missouri. And the legislature did act–they placed a cap on the percentage of their budget cities can earn from fines and court costs: 20%. (This was supported by both parties.)

          Still, these scores of tiny cities remain. All the state did is remove part of one source of revenue. A real fix would require addressing the structural issues created by having 88 municipalities in the 508 square miles of the county, and that requires the state to do something, not local officials.

          So there are solutions to the problems our cities face, but those solutions are rarely fixable solely at the local level. The fragmentation of American cities is a problem.

          And interestingly, some states and cities have worked out solutions to this problem. Indianapolis and Louisville have both had city and county consolidation. In both places, Republicans played a prominent role in moving consolidation along. Neither Indianapolis nor Louisville have seen all their problems disappear, but consolidation did make a difference. (I’m less familiar with other places that have done consolidation, like Jacksonville, FL.)

          Consolidation wasn’t possible without the states creating the legal process for moving forward. Structural problems require structural fixes.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Zane says:

            It also made oblique references to MA and ACIS.

            You know who those guys are?

            But, anyway, you say:
            The problems of our cities (and schools) are mostly down to structural things that local governments have little to no ability to affect.

            So at that point, we’ve got a choice between performative government that can’t do anything and non-performative government that can’t do anything.

            Even San Francisco said that they were sick of performative recently. Like, overwhelmingly so.

            Why is it such a surprise that places that somehow manage to be less progressive than San Fran would be equally sick of performative? I mean, maybe “throwing the bums out” is the only thing on the table.

            I don’t see the harm. I mean, assuming you’re correct that local governments can’t do anything.Report

            • Zane in reply to Jaybird says:

              I don’t know who those guys are. Unless you mean Massachusetts and the Association of Colorado Independent Schools. The problem with subtle cleverness is that if your target isn’t as well-read on the same subjects as you, it’s lost on them… er, me. 😉

              I didn’t say that local governments can’t do anything. Local governments do a lot of things. They put out fires, they maintain parks, they set speed limits, they do as many traffic stops as possible to try to shore up municipal finances, and so on. What I said was the problems that local governments encounter (in particular the problems that Kristin discusses in the OP) are generally not solvable solely at the local level. Cities have no easy fix to high murder rates or poorly performing schools. Those problems are greatly affected by structural issues. That doesn’t make them unsolvable.

              We also should not give up. We have to think differently about solutions. It’s reasonable to ask people who say they can fix things how they plan to do so.

              If performative politics is bad (and I agree with that much), then the voters of San Francisco did something about an egregious case. That’s good, right?

              Is the argument being made that we know it was performative politics because *even San Francisco* threw them out? And that Texas continuing to elect folks like Abbot and Paxton must be evidence that Abbot and Paxton aren’t engaging in performative politics? Because that’s nonsensical.

              I mean, using that sort of logic, one could also argue that Democrats are smart enough to throw their idiots out while Republicans are too dumb to recognize their leaders are engaging in expensive and harmful virtue signaling but can’t keep a power grid running.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Zane says:

                Nah, those guys were commenters here.

                It’s all good.

                Cities have no easy fix to high murder rates or poorly performing schools. Those problems are greatly affected by structural issues. That doesn’t make them unsolvable.

                Well, if they’re unsolveable by the local performative government, it certainly seems like “tossing the bums out” should be on the table if the local government gets performative enough.

                Is the argument being made that we know it was performative politics because *even San Francisco* threw them out?

                No. The argument was that we know it was performative politics because we watched the school board recall. There’s a link to a post and to Mother Jones in the opening of the original essay.

                I daresay that both are fun reads (especially the comments to the linked essay on OT).

                And that Texas

                You know, we got into the whole “BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS OTHER GUY?” thing in the other essay.

                My take was that San Francisco seems to have demonstrated that yelling “WHAT ABOUT REPUBLICANS” exceptionally loudly has stopped working.

                Personally, I think that “we tossed our performative pols and now we’re going to give you guys an example to follow and a standard to meet” is going to work a hell of a lot better than “we tossed out some idiots, now it’s your turn to toss out some idiots”.

                Granted, it might be impossible to provide an example to follow…Report

              • Zane in reply to Jaybird says:

                Okay then. What would that look like, Jaybird? What could San Francisco’s new school board do that the rest of our nation would cite as an example to move forward? What lessons from San Francisco will Pensacola adopt to fix their problems with distance learning and reopening schools following a shutdown?

                You want to know the reason I want to talk about the Republicans? There is zero chance that any of the former San Francisco school board members would be elected to higher office in the US. Their idiocy won’t affect me, and will no longer affect the residents of San Francisco.

                Ron DeSantis could be our next president. Our Supreme Court has been working on drafting an opinion that seems designed to create a path to overturn same-sex marriage and the decriminalization of sodomy. As a married gay man, my mind concentrates on these national figures and the existential threat they pose to me and those like me. I find this deeply terrifying. We are returning to the days of my youth, when the threat of violence and ruin kept us in our place.

                But you’re probably right. Why talk about Republicans? These locally elected Democrats/woke fascists who are no longer in office are the true threat to our society. I don’t know if you believe that, but Kristin certainly does.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Zane says:

                What could San Francisco’s new school board do that the rest of our nation would cite as an example to move forward?

                I don’t know.

                I do suspect that there are a handful of things that they could have *NOT* done that would not have resulted in their ouster.

                The include stuff like “being in the middle of the pack of schools that returned to school in San Francisco, if not California in general instead of being among the very last to return to the building” as well as “maybe *NOT* demanding the school named after DiFi have its name changed to something less offensive.”

                You want to know the reason I want to talk about the Republicans?

                It’s easier? It allows you to get into a high moral dudgeon about how “THEY SHOULDN’T DO THAT!” instead of providing a point-by-point list of how to make schools better?

                These locally elected Democrats/woke fascists who are no longer in office are the true threat to our society. I don’t know if you believe that, but Kristin certainly does.

                There’s still a DA to recall, from what I understand.

                Perhaps you could bring up the DAs in Wisconsin as a counter-point to Chesa. They deliberately threw the Rittenhouse trial, I understand.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

                Wait, I did think of something.

                I suppose that being a cautionary example has upsides.

                Just not, you know, for the people directly involved.Report

              • Zane in reply to Jaybird says:

                Zane: What could San Francisco’s new school board do that the rest of our nation would cite as an example to move forward?

                Jay: I don’t know.

                Zane: You want to know the reason I want to talk about the Republicans?

                Jay: It’s easier? It allows you to get into a high moral dudgeon about how “THEY SHOULDN’T DO THAT!” instead of providing a point-by-point list of how to make schools better?

                It feels like this just a joke to you. That you’re interested in the competition between ideologies, but not really curious about the ideologies themselves. You want to point out flaws in arguments and messaging, but discussing how to bring about positive change just isn’t your job. Is that true? At least Kristin wants better schools and cities, even if I think her analysis and conclusions are wrong.

                If we’re going to discuss the merits of Kristin’s argument, it’s going to be tough to do so without ever mentioning Republicans. Maybe we can take a physicist’s approach? “Let’s posit an entirely Democratic city in a vacuum.”

                My understanding of Kristin’s thesis is that the ideology of the Left today is woke fascism. Woke fascists believe that if the symbolic residue of racism, sexism, etc. are confronted (i.e., if we rub people’s noses in how bad they are for being white, male, cis, straight, non-disabled, yada yada yada), then society will become good. We know that Kristin believes this because she notes that Leftist policies have failed at the same time that Leftists in power don’t actually do anything of substance. Therefore, the lack of doing anything (except stupid and wrongheaded symbolic things) are the sum total of Leftist policies.

                The politics of the Left is definitionally performative, because performative politics is the key to societal change (rubbing people’s noses in their ideological sins, as noted) within the ideology.

                However, woke fascism is both cruel and deadly, she argues. It doesn’t actually address real problems (like those dead babies strapped in their strollers), encourages trans people’s victimization of children, encourages women to be childless worker drones like men, and distracts us from shifting social welfare to churches. And so on.

                By contrast, the politics of the Right are *not* performative. I don’t know why this is. It’s quite possible I’ve missed where Kristin explains this. She doesn’t seem to talk about the Right or Republicans much, except when explaining how even the most extreme-seeming actions are perfectly understandable when you realize they’re just trying to hold off Democratic attempts to end democracy and destroy our society. At least the Republicans are doing *something*, I guess. (Kristin, on the off chance that you ever read comments, it’d be great if you could clarify this a bit more.)

                Kristin acknowledges that corruption is everywhere within both parties, but it’s worse on among Democrats because they violate cultural norms in order to grift, unlike Republicans, who we all expect to be corrupt but at least have the decency to steal in socially acceptable ways. (I’m a bit iffy on the business model of the Ds making bank on people protesting at Supreme Court Justice’s homes.)

                Now, there are apparently factions within the Democratic Party, some of which buy into woke fascism more than others. I’m fuzzy on the details here, because Bernie Sanders is the victim of the corruption within the party, but surely Bernie Sanders is the embodiment of a woke fascist? The man has been the primary sponsor of 8 successful bills in his 16 years in the Senate. Isn’t running for President on that record almost definitionally performative? Anyway, the Democrats are a mélange of corruption and fascism and wokeness. (Though apparently there are some good ones; you can tell who they are because they agree with Kristin.) And our cities are dystopian hellscapes as a result.

                My read of Kristin is that woke fascists/Democrats are fundamentally different from Republicans. An important element of that difference is the performative nature of woke fascist politics and policies. That performative aspect of woke fascism makes Democrats uniquely dangerous and leaves Republicans always the safer bet.

                If your definition of rhetorical fairness means that it is unacceptable to bring up some potential counters to that argument (such as potential examples of performative political behavior by Republicans, or that other Democratic-led school boards have addressed real issues, or that the problems are not solvable at the school board level), then it is possible to disagree with Kristin’s thesis only by arguing that the San Francisco school board members weren’t engaging in performative politics. But I agree that the San Francisco school board members were engaging in performative politics. I agreed with that stance before the OP was written. I still disagree with Kristin’s analysis and conclusions. You just don’t wanna hear it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Zane says:

                That you’re interested in the competition between ideologies, but not really curious about the ideologies themselves.

                One of the things I like is the whole experimentation thing.

                Let’s take two school districts.

                Okay.

                Let’s change one of them.

                Okay.

                Test scores go down.

                Now what?

                Well, the argument that says “we should change back” is the argument that I see as the good argument.

                The argument that says “you don’t know that things got worse just because we changed!” and then start talking about funding and taxes and Republicans is the argument that tells me “this is all just a joke”.

                So see it as me agreeing with you.

                But I agree that the San Francisco school board members were engaging in performative politics. I agreed with that stance before the OP was written. I still disagree with Kristin’s analysis and conclusions. You just don’t wanna hear it.

                I’d *LOVE* to hear it.

                But I kind of see it as similar to the whole Creationism debates of the 80’s.

                I understand that the Creationists would rather change the subject. But we’re talking about the Science Curriculum, not abortion and Communism.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’ve read this comment about 10 times and I’m just as far from deciphering it as I was after the first.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                I know you’re not new here, so why are you surprised — if you are.Report

              • Philip H in reply to CJColucci says:

                The internet really needs a snark emoji.Report

              • Oh, I’ll try to phrase it differently.

                One perspective says “we have numbers that seem like they should be improvable. Let’s try to improve them. We’ll change this variable.”

                Then they change the variable.
                Then they see if the number changes.

                If the number changes, they see if it’s in the good way or the bad way.

                If it’s in the bad way, they go back to the old way.

                ======

                Another perspective says “we can make the number go up by running with this theory of humanity that is better than the current one. So we should change things.”

                Then they change multiple things.

                And if the numbers don’t change or, God Forbid, go down? The argument is that the teachers didn’t do it right. Maybe the teachers were undercut by parents. Maybe the school buildings need to be revamped. The important thing is to double down.

                ======

                Far too often, I see philosophies like the second one rather than the first one.

                I am not against change.

                I am, however, against evidence-resistant theories.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                Maybe the problem is that public education has been an ideological crucible for far too long. There is no magic bullet at this point.Report

              • Well, part of the problem is that some stuff works really well on the right side of the tracks but it doesn’t scale to the wrong side of the tracks and arguments that we need to do things differently on the two sides are frowned upon.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think the real issue is that education is a convenient feint that allows the government to say it’s doing something while avoiding input level problems that defy simple solutions.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Zane says:

        She only tells us what she hates, not what she wants.

        Republicanism, defined.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Zane says:

        What are the policies that will fix the failing schools and the stroller- and carseat-bound innocent babies dying across the US? Kristin does not tell us.

        Evaluate performance. Don’t get side tracked by symbolism.

        The policies are probably less important than than making sure that you’re hiring competent people and firing scoundrels.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

          The recipe for delivering excellent education is well known and uncontroversial.
          Peaceful stable home life, parents with a strong incentive to participate in a child’s education, and a social culture supportive of education generally. Given these things, schools are scarcely necessary as home schools demonstrate.

          But that’s like saying the recipe for good health is well known- balanced diet, modest portions, exercise, and a supportive social environment.

          All well and good but our politics, our public policies and institutions like schools and hospitals aren’t meant for people don’t need them.

          How does society cope with poor health habits and struggling families and people who aren’t perfect?

          The only answer I ever hear from conservatives is some variation of exclusion and isolation, coupled with punishment.

          The same solutions which have failed consistently.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            If I wrote those first two sentences, you would accuse me of exclusion, isolation, and punishment. Beyond that, I don’t see many school policies doing well for those students who don’t fit those conditions. That’s where experimentation can come in, and that’s going to take place at the local level, without the unions dominating it.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

              Yes, exclusion and punishment “work” by freeing the high performers from any obligations to the low performers.

              This is how societies have worked since the beginning of time.

              The idea of a society that heals its sick and nurtures the wounded and broken is relatively new.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                History is filled with people trying to help others, so I disagree with your thesis. And your accusations were the least interesting part of your 9:23 comment. The interesting thing to me is that there aren’t many educational solutions for the disadvantaged without eliminating their disadvantage or making the overall society blossom enough to give them opportunity. The best place for those solutions to be developed isn’t the right or the left, but it is in experimentation that the left opposes.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                How do you experiment whilst standing athwart history yelling “Stop!”?

                What solutions do conservatives propose to educate students from poor and dysfunctional families?

                Or for that matter, how to heal broken and dysfunctional communities, like those rural communities wracked by opioid abuse and collapsing economies?

                Give us some examples of “experiments” in states and towns run by Republicans for the past few decades so we can evaluate their results.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I was thinking of school choice and charter schools. They’re not exclusive to Republican jurisdictions but they’re often opposed by the Democratic pols and teachers’ unions. But let’s take something as simple as school uniforms. I don’t think anyone saw those returning 10 years ago, but they’re becoming more common. I wouldn’t call them liberal.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Isn’t school choice just a process of allowing high performing families to abandon low performing families?

                How does it turn low performing students into high performers? Where has it been shown to improve education for all, instead of a few?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Did education in this country used to be better?

                If it did, and there’s reason to believe that it did, maybe we could look at what we changed and go back to what we did before.

                If education is, instead, better than it’s ever been… well, no problem.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Is educational outcome independent of the culture and society in which it happens?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Did the culture and society in this country used to be better?

                Now *THAT* is an interesting question.

                Since we are entirely in agreement that culture and society is better than it’s ever been, we are stuck wondering “why in the heck is that resulting in worse educational outcomes?”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Why do you think either one of those two statements is true, and why would you set them in opposition to each other?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Did the culture and society in this country used to be better?

                No.

                But society did have rigid hierarchies of gender, economics, and race, such that White men, even poor White men, could act as superiors to whit women and people of color. They could dictate working conditions, medical decisions, even educational outcomes.

                Since WW2 those hierarchies have been breaking down – sometimes under their own weight, sometimes being forced over. One of the most effective pushbacks to that changes has been to seek to deny educational outcomes – through “school choice” or white flight or similar systemic processes. Now the same people who want to preserve their status are seeing they can’t stay on top that way either, so they are willing to burn it all down to deny their “foes” opportunity they themselves had, even if it ensure their own descendants are cut off form opportunities.

                Its a pernicious “I got mine you can’t have any of it” spiral.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

                It’s a common fallacy to imagine culture as moving in a single coherent direction.

                More permissive to less, or more hierarchical to more egalitarian.
                But culture actually evolves in many directions at once.

                Like, becoming more accepting of marijuana and less accepting of tobacco, more accepting of homosexuality and less of sexual harassment.

                To “go back” to a previous cultural moment is not just impossible, but in fact no one would tolerate it if we could.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                So culture and society are getting better and better and one of the costs to that is the occasional school with 5% of the student body being proficient in math.

                Hey.

                You can’t make an omelet.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                Let me propose that an individual’s educational level is a function of: ability, educational opportunity, the perceived value of education, and the personal discount rate (I can’t think of a better way to describe it, but basically the capacity for delaying gratification). The first term is more or less innate. The second term is related to educational funding at the lowest levels but not at the highest; that is, there’s a threshold. The perceived value of education is going to be strongly influenced by society, with the actual value being more determined by economics and the perception of that value determined by culture. The personal discount rate is the result of a mess of heredity, environment, and free will.

                I don’t know if this helps, but I think it delineates (a little bit inaccurately) some of the factors that we’re lumping together.Report

  2. Philip H says:

    I always have a great deal of respect for you because, unlike a good many folks around here, you don’t sit on the sidelines and lob water balloons. You jump in front of the fire hose regularly.

    And there are parts of this you do get right – like the affinity of the Democratic Party for corporate money and corporation supporting policies. Neoliberalism in other words. Much of the progressive and leftist movement in America has long criticized this in the Democrats, as it has criticized the move of the Party ever rightward trying to chase the respect of Republicans – which it will never get.

    Had you confined your diatribe on performative politics to that, you’d probably have gotten three cheers from me. But you didn’t.

    To start, if the Democratic Party at any level had actually been captured by the ivory tower, Bernie would have been nominated at least once. And while it does appear to many leftists that he was railroaded, the reality is that his message didn’t inspire enough of the right people in the right geography to actually tune out the votes he needed. His consistently high poll numbers among young people, for instance, didn’t actually translate into a flood of young people at the polls. Sadly for the conspirators, the DNC doesn’t really bear much responsibility for that, though state Democratic parties can and should be faulted for not engaging in Get Out The Vote activities targeting younger voters.

    As Murali notes above, however, your greatest misstep, which suffuses the entire article, is conflating correlation with causation. Take the current state of the major cities in the midwest you highlight. Yes, they do have higher crime then rural Idaho. Yes, they have lost economic opportunities. And yes they have had long standing Democratic administrations.

    But to assume that one logically leads to another is a fallacy that I would think someone of your obvious intelligence would avoid. Take Detroit – the single biggest driver of that city’s condition was the long slow exit of the auto industry. Why did Big Auto leave? Decades of US tax and trade policy, passed by Congresses and signed by Presidents of both parties. A shift in business school teaching of corporate managers and CEOs to value quarter over quarter profit maximization instead of steady profits in a sustainable industry. All capped by a Republican controlled state legislature that disinvested in critical services like roads and bridges so they could cut taxes over veto threats from both Republican and Democratic governors. How, exactly, would the Mayor of Detroit reverse any of that? How, exactly, is the Mayor of Detroit responsible for any of that?

    And New Orleans? A City that’s 60% Black in a state controlled by White Male Republicans? A city that lost slightly more then half its population after Hurricane Katrina, only about 2/3rds of which have been clawed back since? A city where the biggest employer at a modest 15% is Educational services (https://datausa.io/profile/geo/new-orleans-la#tmap_ind_num_emp)? Please. The issues there have nothing to do with political party.

    Look, we all know you don’t like or trust Democrats or liberals or leftists. What I can’t figure out is why you decided to spend so many words reaffirming that message now.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

      “His consistently high poll numbers among young people, for instance, didn’t actually translate into a flood of young people at the polls.”

      (young people have jobs and don’t get the day off to vote in primary elections)

      “How, exactly, is the Mayor of Detroit responsible for any of that?”

      if you want to claim that the people in charge of things aren’t responsible for those things going badly, hey, that’s great, go for itReport

      • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

        Interesting attempt to conflate two things and troll off them, but what the heck I’ll bite.

        Most voters don’t get the day off to go vote. I don’t. Never have. I don’t get state or county or city holidays off. That would require an actual act of Congress. I happen to agree that election day should be a national holiday, but so far it’s not a solution anyone in any great numbers want to back.

        So sure, the mayor of Detroit could declare election day a city holiday. Legally it wouldn’t change a thing, and I suspect the Republican controlled legislature in Michigan would then pass a veto proof law that says Detroit can’t do that because its the state’s job to regulate elections.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

          “Most voters don’t get the day off to go vote.”

          (most of Biden’s support came from retirees, who don’t have jobs)Report

          • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

            UM … no

            After decades of constituting the majority of voters, Baby Boomers and members of the Silent Generation made up less than half of the electorate in 2020 (44%), falling below the 52% they constituted in both 2016 and 2018. Gen Z and Millennial voters favored Biden over Trump by margins of about 20 points, while Gen Xers and Boomers were more evenly split in their preferences. Gen Z voters, those ages 23 and younger, constituted 8% of the electorate, while Millennials and Gen Xers made up 47% of 2020 voters.

            https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/06/30/behind-bidens-2020-victory/Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

          I happen to agree that election day should be a national holiday…

          I’m sure I speak for many in my state (>95% mail ballots) and the 13-state CB western region of which we are part (>90% mail ballots) when I say, “Yes, please!” Another national holiday, this one presumably applying very broadly, and no new obligation.

          On second thought, you’re going to want to close down the restaurants and theaters and museums and music venues and national parks and stuff, aren’t you?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      Had you limited your criticisms to stuff that I also oppose, I would have agreed with you.

      As it is, you criticized stuff that I do too.

      Anyway, I think that there are some serious problems with Democratic Governance and saying “Well, all cities have problems!” and going from there to “All cities are run by Democrats” to wave away problems is going to make you feel better in the short term but it’s not going to do anything to address any problems.

      San Francisco is currently going through a recall effort for its DA. Stuff like homelessness and shoplifting are huge when it comes to the recall.

      You bring up Detroit… yeah, Detroit has had a *TON* of problems since before I was born. They’ve also had Democrats in charge since 1962.

      New Orleans? Here’s what it says at the top of the page of the list of Mayors of New Orleans: “All mayors of New Orleans since 1872 have been Democrats.

      “The issues have nothing to do with political party.”

      Look, we all know you don’t like or trust Democrats or liberals or leftists. What I can’t figure out is why you decided to spend so many words reaffirming that message now.

      Yes. Question the motives. It has nothing to do with what was actually written. It has to do with what mindsets were likely to result in posts like the ones written.

      Mind if I apply that standard to your comment there above? Gimme a sec…Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

        I don’t question her motives. I know what they are. She’s been quite up front about them. Which is more then I can say for a good many others around here. As Oscar notes below, however, her ideas aren’t tightly written. The issues she’s throwing out aren’t new, nor has she been silent on them before.

        All cities don’t have problems, however, and cities that have problems are not all democratic cities either. America’s 7th largest city – San Antonio – is led by an independent. Jacksonville and Fort Worth (#12&13) – are led by Republicans. As is Miami (43), Tulsa (46), and Anaheim (55). And how are they doing? The poverty rate and violent crime rates are slowly climbing. Fort Worth has a higher violent crime rate per 1000 residents then the Texas or US national average. Miami still has a higher rate of murders and violent assaults then the national average and I have found a number of sources suggesting that Miami’s crime rate per capita exceeds Chicago’s. Funny how none of that nuance is in this piece.

        Oh, and about New Orleans having all Democratic mayors? As I keep being reminded here and elsewhere, Democrats were the party of the KKK and active racial oppression until the 1960’s. Republicans freed the slaves. So no, its not about party at all there.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          Well, the wacky thing about all of them being Democrats since 1872 is that it means that all of them have been Democrats since the 1960’s.

          Funny how none of that nuance is in this piece.

          I’m pretty sure that a piece that argued that Republicans are bad too and pretty much identical to Democrats WHERE IT REALLY MATTERS would have been fascinating to read (if only for the comments).

          Maybe that’s why performativism matters. Because nothing else does. So why not go for the peacock?Report

  3. Philip H says:

    Anyone want to tell me why a comment with none of the bad words and only one embedded link is in moderation?Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

      because this site coddles conservatives and has a severe anti-liberal biasReport

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      Did you edit it? When I put up a comment, then see a typo, then fix it, I always get dumped into moderation when I’ve got a link in there.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

        I did but that’s not ever happened to me before. Seems a big buggy, but I’m not a code savvy tech geek either.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          It’s for your protection. There are many comments that write something like “this post made me think hey thank you” and then, three minutes later, add something about getting products that are hard to find IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

          Anyway, just say “I’m in moderation” and we’ll yank you out of it.Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

          If you invoke the edit function from the comment’s countdown timer link, and save a comment containing a link, it will always go into moderation.

          If you are logged in on the site, and have sufficient privileges, there may be an “(Edit)” link following the comment’s timestamp. If you invoke that edit function, the modified comment-with-link won’t go into moderation.

          I have sufficient privileges to edit anyone’s comments. Not because I should, but because WordPress doesn’t provide fine-grained control of privileges. I try to be logged in only when I need to do something that requires it, and to log out as soon as I’m done, in order to avoid accidentally invoking that second sort of thing.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Jaybird says:

        If I want to edit a comment that has a link, and it’s in the five-minute window, I delete the comment and then post the edited version.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Philip H says:

      And thanks to whoever kicked it free.Report

  4. While I disagree with part of this, I think the point about performativeness is well taken. A perfect example is the BLM thing. For a while, the Democrats had the entire country on their side. And instead of pushing on something like qualified immunity or police training or asset forfeiture, they put on their little clothes and kneeled and changed the names of a few things and called it a day.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      I’m kind of surprised how BLM sort of disappeared. There was a mass murder just the other day of Black people by a white guy.

      And I’ve not seen any kind of “Black Lives Matter” assertions at all.

      It’s kind of weird.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        I think its leadership has collapsed into activist industrial grift.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

        “…BLM sort of disappeared. There was a mass murder just the other day of Black people by a white guy.”

        Almost like those two things are connected somehow.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I’d be interested in hearing how they’re connected.

          Wait, is the assertion that had BLM stuck around, this wouldn’t have happened? That’s an exceptionally interesting assertion and one that I am willing to run with but I don’t want to assume that that’s what you were asserting if you weren’t.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

            It’s the Birmingham Letter problem, where white people ignore racial injustice until there are riots then temporarily seek facile solution like renaming pancake syrup, then after a short time go back to deliberate ignorance.
            Because as Dr. King wrote, for most white people, racism is something to be wished away without the inconvenience of introspection or sacrifice.

            But the white supremacists, they never sleep. Every moment of every day, they are meeting and writing and recruiting and grooming.

            So while white people were scraping off their faded BLM stickers, a young man was arming himself and planning his slaughter.

            And all across the internet a thousand fellow travelers are doing the same.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Ah, the problem of the white moderate liberals.

              Well, best of luck corralling them back to you. (Personally, I think that pointing out how much of everything is their fault is the best way in. They *LOVE* guilt. You, Chip, may not be the best mouthpiece for that, though. Try to find a decent person whose mouth you can put your words in.)Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Again with the “Behold the power of bigotry!”

                Yes, bigotry is an intractable problem, and not just with Republicans.
                As you yourself might ask, are you willing to admit you might be part of the problem?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, if you think that you don’t need to change, don’t let me stop you.

                Best of luck in November. Did you hear that Snoop endorsed Rick Caruso? Sweet Alice endorsed him too!

                I’ve got a good feeling about this guy!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                So, you’re really not open to the idea that you need to change?

                Huh.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I am! It’s why I stopped being a Libertarian.

                I’m now focusing on stuff that seems to demonstrably not work.

                Despite, you know, being morally superior to stuff that appears to.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                “I’m now focusing on stuff that seems to demonstrably not work.”

                Republicanism, defined.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                There you go again.

                (Actually, being able to stop doing something that isn’t working seems to be something out of reach for both parties, assuming only two.)Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Weren’t you the one leading the moral panic of teachers doing bad things in secret?

                And now “focusing on stuff that seems to demonstrably not work”?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “Guys, this is a problem.”
                “OH SO NOW YOU’RE A LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION!!!!”

                I can appreciate never wanting to hear anybody disagree with you, but I don’t think it’s healthy.

                For what it’s worth, I think that denial is bad for you. Like, actively bad. Finding reasons to not listen to stuff that disagrees with you?

                That’s some Young Earth Creationism stuff.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m just saying, it’s hard to persuade people you aren’t claiming a moral superiority when you’re carrying a torch and screaming about witches.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m not claiming moral superiority.

                I have no special connection to the moral fabric of the universe and my insights to it have no more standing than anybody else’s, as far as I can tell.

                I am capable of making the occasional vulgar utilitarian calculus and I like to think that I’m capable of enough theory of mind to crudely model the thought processes of people that disagree with me in such a way that doesn’t flatter my priors.

                It’s from there that I am capable of looking at stuff and saying “this is a problem”.

                It’s not me picking up the torches and screaming.

                You’re projecting.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                Man, just yesterday I was making fun of Saul for his “I’m rubber you’re glue” comment, so I can’t just stand by now without going after you. It’s entirely possible that a person could accuse someone of what they’re guilty of, but it’s a terrible argument. It’s like accusing someone of being disingenuous. It’s the last statement in an exchange of ideas.

                I also hate the Freudianness of it. That makes it even more unfalsifiable than an accusation of disingenuousness. If you accuse me of being disingenuous, at least I can know you’re wrong. If you accuse me of projecting, even my certainty of your error comes into question. Freudianism is to the last hundred years what wokeism is to the current era. It dates the art from the period so much that it’s hard not to view everything as a time capsule.

                Still, I found Saul’s funnier, because he said that any accusation is a confession then went on to accuse someone.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                The accusation was that I was carrying a “torch” and “screaming”, Pinky.

                I assure you. I am doing neither.

                However: I do think that the whole argument by attacking people for being bigots, racists, ‘phobes, etc is some form of argument-from-social-shaming. It’s, effectively, an appeal to the mob.

                Hey. I’m just this guy saying “your moral authority ain’t particularly legible”.

                (And, from what I can tell, the mob is smaller than it was yesterday.)Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                I just assumed you were in England, walking around with a flashlight and screaming. Which sounds delightfully fun. Oh, and speaking of trips, I forgot to pay a compliment to your Iceland article. Too bad the aurora was unimpressive.

                As for what you were doing, I get it. I’ve said before that you should put the definition of INTP at the top of your comments. You’re not trying to kick the house over, you’re checking to see if its foundation is solid.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                You’re not trying to kick the house over, you’re checking to see if its foundation is solid.

                Would that he had a contribution to make when we all agree on the condition of the foundation. Alas . . .Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Eh, I have contributions, but we don’t seem to agree on whether the problems we have are yet bad enough to stop doubling down on what we’re doing.

                So long as we’re still in “raise taxes, more funding”, I’m not sure that our problems are fixable.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                We have 40 years of data saying cutting taxes hasn’t fixed anything. You may not like the data, but its there.

                We have decades of data on what permanently reduced poverty and homelessness and drug addiction. We know the costs of those things. and those answers were achieved inspite of a lot of political calculations and decisions that seek to actively work against solutions we know to work for a variety of reasons.

                That’s not what I’m talking about however. You often chide me and Chip and Saul for not agreeing there’s a problem. We then spend lots of time and pixels agreeing with you that we have a problem, describing why we think its a problem and then and offering actionable solutions. You then prattle on about how we don’t think its a problem . . . usually because you don’t like our solutions.

                Lack of agreement about the existence or nature of the problem is not our issue.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Oh, I’m certainly not arguing for cutting taxes!

                I think that this is part of the problem.

                The initial argument comes something about taxes and funding and the response comes “money ain’t the problem” and the immediate thought process is to make an accusation of wanting to therefore cut taxes.

                It’s weird.

                Like, the solutions are orthogonal to the taxes.

                When it comes to the student loan bailout, we look at the problem and I see a bunch of people saying “this college degree is not worth what I paid for it” and I disagree with the people who say “so bail them out” and the assumption is that, therefore, I think that the ripped-off people should be on the hook for these lemons.

                There are a lot of problems but we don’t seem to agree on whether the problems we have are yet bad enough to stop doubling down on what we’re already doing.

                And, let’s face it, the problems of poverty and homelessness and drug addiction in San Francisco could be tackled somewhat in San Francisco without people like me getting in the way at all.

                Would you say that these things have gotten worse, better, or stayed the same over the last couple of decades?

                (To be honest, I’m not confident that we are capable of agreeing that something that we’re doing is not working. Until we can do that, well…)Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Of course you are.

                In the midst of a hysterical witchhunt moral panic over accusations of teachers grooming children for sexual abuse, you kept posting, over and over again about how “bad it looked” for teachers to be “hiding things ” from parents and how the hunt for witches was a backlash in reaction the appearance of witchcraft.

                You can’t lead a mob of bigots then feign indigenous n action over people noticing.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Some people look at the Libs of TikTok account and think that the Libs of TikTok account is the problem.

                Some people look at the Libs of TikTok account and think that the stuff she’s posting is the problem.

                This is where we get into the whole thing that Oscar says below:
                “A is perfectly sustainable, if they did nothing wrong.”

                And, of course, the kicker:

                The question most likely to voiced by parents is, “Were you ignoring warning signs / red flags / etc.?”.

                Hey, Chip.

                Are you ignoring warning signs, red flags, etc?

                Because, if you are, that’s bad.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I honestly expected you to deny you were participating in a moral panic witchunt, but you chose to lob more accusations of witchcraft.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I don’t think that “Witchcraft” is a good analogy because witches don’t exist.

                The problem with the Libs of TikTok account is that it changes the conversation from “Nobody is arguing that!” to “You’re nutpicking!”

                I don’t know that there has been a single witch in the history of civilization (or the millennia prior).

                But Libs of TikTok does the disservice of showing what a handful of people are actually bragging about.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        maybe the whole point of BLM was the same thing as Occupy Wall Street, which was basically for everyone to get up and go to the window, and open it, and stick their heads out, and yell “I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not gonna take this anymore!”Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

        It’s not a Presidential election year.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      It tells you that the DNC fears law enforcement more than BLM.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        The struggles of reformers like George Gascon and Chesa Boudin demonstrate how common reactionary attitudes towards policing are in even the most “liberal” jurisdictions.

        Which is why perfomative liberalism is politically easier than liberal performance.
        Because even in San Francisco you need the wealthy to get elected.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I intend to vote against the recall but I suggest that the issue with Boudin is more complicated. A lot of Asian San Franciscans do not like him and it is a categorical error to suggest that all of them are wealthy. My anecdata is that a lot of them are offended by the “don’t fall for GOP dark money” line.

          I have a theory and it is mine that anti-black racism is such a big issue in the United States that it flattens everything around it like a black hole including issues that deserve a lot more nuisance.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            I agree with that, especially in cities like LA where the majority are neither black or white.

            As I’ve written before, for at least a decade I’ve lived and worked in majority-minority environments. Either majority Asian or Spanish speaking or Middle Eastern or female-run, and the politics of those spaces was always complex and nuanced.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Seconding my brother here. As a poster on the other blog pointed out, Asian-Americans tend to believe a lot more in public decorum and order as a good thing. They really don’t like the sort of low level disorder and disrespect for the rules that is seen as part of San Francisco culture but can also make living here more than a little unpleasant at times.

          I take BART and transit a lot. It isn’t uncommon to see turn style jumpers or other examples of assholish behavior. On more than a few occasions, there were people having very loud arguments on the phone or even with other people and making everybody else nervous etc. A lot of the activist set seems forgiving towards this type of behavior or maybe even kind of enamored with it but a lot of people just see this as bad behavior that is annoying at best and dangerous at worse.

          When you combine this with the passive-aggressive nature that the Activist set has towards Asian-Americans, with one of the school board members calling them house slaves or wanting to rename Frank Ogawa Plaza Oscar Grant Plaza in Oakland, basically taking one of the few areas named for an Asian-American in the Bay Area than you are going to get competition. A lot of Asian-Americans seem to feel that they are being used as foot soldiers but their own needs as community are completely ignored by the people calling for help.Report

    • Douglas Hayden in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      They were never going to get QI fixed without Republican votes, and Tim Scott can tell you everything you need to know about why they were never going to get Republican votes.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Douglas Hayden says:

        It might have been nice if the argument was “Reform QI” instead of “Defund the Police”, though. We could have argued about QI instead of Defunding.

        Ah, woulda coulda shoulda.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

          “Nice” butters no parsnips. The votes weren’t there, the votes were never going to be there, we know whose votes those were, and we know why they couldn’t be gotten. Don Draper couldn’t have come up with a marketing strategy that would have worked. But hey, criticizing bad messaging is easier and more fun than confronting real differences on matters of substance.Report

        • Douglas Hayden in reply to Jaybird says:

          “Reform QI” was Tim Scott’s argument!

          But when nobody can control the messaging and anyone can latch on to the worst counter-arguments, well…Report

          • Slade the Leveller in reply to Douglas Hayden says:

            I read the R bill proposal when the debate was being held, and most of it was smoke and mirrors and pretty please don’t treat the suspects like garbage but we’re totally with you if you do because we know how hard your job is.

            It was entirely disingenuous.Report

    • Chris in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      It was the most Democratic moment ever: people are fired up to do something, so what we’re going to do is not do anything.

      This not only meant no change on a national scale, but left any local or state politicians who attempted to make real changes out to dry, as happened here in Austin.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Chris says:

        Sadly true. Democrats are masters at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. It’s part and parcel of the perpetion that they aren’t “Fighters.”Report

        • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

          A party that hasn’t really passed major legislation since 2009 (and even then, only after compromising its most important parts away) is definitely not going to earn a reputation as fightersReport

          • Philip H in reply to Chris says:

            I keep saying that, but people keep telling me I’m wrong.Report

            • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

              The abortion issue (not just the leaked draft, but SB8 in Texas and copycats elsewhere) have meant that I’ve been interacting with liberals at a level I usually don’t, and I’m absolutely amazed at how many have faith that the Democratic Party, which has been in power multiple times since Roe, is going to save them on this issue. I get that it’s a sort of defense mechanism — the alternative is to recognize the truth: no one in mainstream politics is going to save them, at least not anytime soon, and the only way out of this is building power themselves — but it’s still maddening to watch up close. Looking forward to not being around liberals again soon.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Chris says:

                In a lot of cases, its because liberals don’t have alternatives. As you and i have discussed before, most of the democratic socialist parties and the straight up leftist parties aren’t organizing or campaigning for local or state level offices. It means we have few choices . . . .Report

              • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

                I’d argue that the goal should be to build power outside of the mainstream political process (that is, not by running candidates and voting, or at least not primarily by doing those things), but yeah, if you want to build power within existing political institutions, unfortunately DSA/Socialist Alternative just aren’t big enough yet to run anyone anywhere but big cities.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Chris says:

                I have seen a lot of ill formed proposals about building power outside existing structures and institutions. History tells us that only generally works in the immediate aftermath of armed conflict.Report

              • Chris in reply to Philip H says:

                I don’t think that’s true. There have been several cases in U.S. history, and more elsewhere, where groups have been able to build power, through mutual aid, through mass organizing, etc., in ways that either changed political institutions or created institutions outside of them that had real impacts on peoples lives.

                The problem is that, in the U.S., we haven’t really seen this on a large scale since the 70s, so people have just forgotten. I think we’re starting to see that change, though, as one of the functions of the renewed popularity of socialism is an opportunity for real political education for many more people.Report

  5. Oscar Gordon says:

    Kristin, I love your posts. If nothing else, you get the comment fires stoked.

    But you really need an editor to help you keep the ideas tight.Report

  6. Douglas Hayden says:

    Living in a bigger city myself, let me put in my viewpoint from these cheap seats. School boards renaming Lincoln High are dumb because school boards are full of performative lefties. I’ll agree that’s dumb, but why are they being performative lefties? Why aren’t they performing? Did they feel that going full woke would work at the ballot box? How did they get that impression? Are there things like corporate and special interests interfering with their ability to perform and thus thought they could take some easy Ws by throwing a Kendi book at things? And let’s not forgot the bevies of donors with more money than people to tell them ‘no’ who’ll cut checks as long as you stay NIMBY while praising how anti-racist they are.

    From my own seat, the Cleveland school board has always had problems getting funding through school levies and a city council eager to give sweetheart deals to every corporate idea that will Revitalize The City(tm) and Bring In Jobs(tm). The city schools are in better shape these days, blessedly, which is why perhaps there was a kinda sorta attempt to rename John Marshall HIgh but that’s really been the extent of it.

    But then we have my own local suburban school district can’t replace half-century plus old schools because of the retirees who’ll gladly shoot down every school levy that’s been on the ballot the forty five years I’ve lived here. Of course, they all came out of the woodwork when we tried renaming my alma mater’s rather unfortunate choice of ‘honoring’ natives.

    The problem left right and center, ultimately, is in a system where not only is performing near impossible, but being performative is far more rewarding and lucrative. How do we solve that?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Douglas Hayden says:

      My go-to example is the Baltimore School District: Six schools reported 0 students proficient in math.

      Like, remember reading the Bible story about how Moses bargained with God over Sodom and hammered out that if there are 10 righteous men, God would not destroy it? Remember boggling over how, holy cow, they couldn’t find even 10 righteous men?

      Surely that’s an exaggeration, I remember thinking. Not even 10?

      Well. Here you go. Not even one student proficient in math. NOT EVEN ONE.

      How is that possible? The mind boggles. It’s not possible. But there it is. Not even one.Report

  7. Chip Daniels says:

    Democrat cities are so horrible the rents keep going because so many people want to live there, or something.

    One of the most cherished myths of conservatives is that somehow liberal cities create homelessness. But in truth, most homeless people were born and raised in the same suburbs that conservatives champion.
    But when someone falls into alcoholism or develops mental illness, those same conservative suburbs ignore them, and force them into the city core. And then of course preen about their moral superiority for not having any homeless.

    The conservative obsession with San Francisco is significant because in truth very few cities are actually all that liberal.
    This is because of the need for performance over performing.
    Trash needs to be picked up, sewers and water kept running potholes fixed and homeless people housed.

    There is no example of a successful “conservative” city that handles all these things. At this moment, conservatism is like socialism, an idea that has all the answers, so long as it never is put into practice.Report

    • Damon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “But when someone falls into alcoholism or develops mental illness, those same conservative suburbs ignore them, and force them into the city core.” Sorry dude, but I seem them on major street corners in the suburbs now. Been like this for at least 10 years. Ofc my suburban county is VERY blue, as are most of the counties in my state. I made a post recently about my state used to have great roads, now, there are potholes everywhere that aren’t being fixed.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

        So why aren’t Republicans running on fixing any of that? Seems to me they would win big if they had an actual plan.Report

        • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

          There are twice as many Dems than Repubs in my state, and the Repubs are generally in the more rural counties. All the counties near the metro hubs are Democratic. Additionally, a significant number of these republicans are “liberal republicans”, and vote with the Dems in the state house on legislation. I once had a conversation with one of these republican legislators when I lived in an exurb. She voted along side the Dems to help pass, at the time, the largest tax increase in the states history, because the leadership in the legislature (all Democrat) agreed to fund a local project. This allowed her to claim that she “got something done”. Not that her “nay” vote would have mattered.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Damon says:

        What policies are your suburban leaders doing that are creating these social problems?

        Would it help to elect Republicans?Report

  8. InMD says:

    On the one hand I get the criticism of the Democrats. I share some of the sentiments. But on the other hand, isn’t the entire GOP now run by a commercial TV station?Report

    • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

      No, it’s not, anymore than CNN & MSNBC run the Democratic Party.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

        If CNN and MSNBC run the Democratic Party, they ought to demand their money back. Fox, not so much.Report

      • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

        I thought about debating that on similar terms as what CJ said but upon reflection I realized that for CNN or MSNBC to play a similar role people would have to actually be watching them.Report

        • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

          Man, you made me un-ignore CJ for a minute, and it wasn’t worth it. But given that 99% of the population doesn’t watch FNC on any given day, I don’t think your argument holds up.Report

          • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

            Oh, I don’t know. My comment was admittedly shallow, but do you really not believe that conservative media like FNC and talk radio has had a profound impact on where the GOP has gone over the last 30 years? Even if just in terms of presentation and points of emphasis?

            And I’m not saying there are no criticisms of the relationship between the Democrats and celebrity, I just think they’re different. Broadly left of center culture is the water in which legacy media (to say nothing of the entertainment industry) swims which is part of why their attempts at something like Fox News or talk radio tend to fail.Report

            • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

              I don’t know. Gingrich predated FNC. I don’t think that O’Reilly or Carlson were thought leaders. There’s a certain kind of analyst that got air time, and I’m sure they had greater influence because of FNC.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

            Nielsen MRI Fusion data shows that while Fox News, of course, draws a majority of the conservative audience on cable news (73%), perhaps even more surprising: Fox actually commands a larger share of liberals in its audience than both CNN and MSNBC (39% tuning into Fox, with a near equal split between the latter: 31% to MSNBC, 30% to CNN).

            https://www.forbes.com/sites/andymeek/2022/02/01/fox-news-channel-has-now-spent-20-years-in-the-1-spot-on-the-cable-news-rankings/?sh=856d41d72f2f

            Yeah, no impact there at all. Not one bit.Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to Philip H says:

              Perspective changes if we move out of comparative percentages into raw numbers:

              “In April 2022, Fox News was the most watched cable news network in the United States and continues to do well in terms of its primetime audience, with 1.52 million primetime viewers in that period. Fox News viewers in the 25-54 demographic reached 248 thousand, whilst MSNBC had just 75 thousand.”

              Even if we assume that it is a *totally* different group of 1.52M per night watching Fox News, that’s 10.5M (1/3 of which are Democratic voters!) viewers in an electorate of over 160M votes cast.

              Which is to say, a very small minority of voters watch Fox news… but virtually no one ever watches CNN or MSNBC. Basically political weirdos in both parties watch Cable News.

              Honestly I’m usually surprised at how little the Team Red folks in my area know about the Republican Party … basically at it’s peak it rose to half-formed notions of Trump. But MTG? Matt Gaetz? Crawford? Absolutely no idea.

              https://www.statista.com/statistics/373814/cable-news-network-viewership-usa/Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Be interesting to see if anyone measures downstream impacts from Cable News punditry. E.g. Person X does not watch FNC, but reads a blog that regularly quotes pundits on FNC. So X is not counted among the viewers, but is still getting influenced by FNC.Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                There’s an entire ecosystem which was what I would have said if I was being more serious. Fewer people are watching FNC every night than the worst 1 o’clock football game by multiple orders of magnitude. But you’ve got them, and you’ve got talk radio, and all of those personalities bleeding into the online versions and overlapping with each other.

                If we’re talking about conservative headspace is it really reasonable to say something like the Heritage Foundation is where the policy and the strategy is originating? If anything I’d say those entities are falling more in line with the conservative media personality approach than vice versa. And my perception is that it very much used to be vice versa, even through the Bush II years.

                Edit to add I’m open to the idea that the stone cold Mitch McConnells of the world are playing a game with it to drive the real agenda but could anyone say that about someone like Kevin McCarthy with a straight face (to say nothing of the Trumpists)?Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                So you’re not talking about FNC specifically. OK. But that leaves you with what? That the media culture, policy experts, and legislators aren’t on the same page but influence each other? That’s an outrage! The scandal!Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                I actually really like the way you broke that down into 3 parts. My perception is that the bulk of the legislators have become subservient to the media culture. I’m not even sure that the policy experts have a seat at the table anymore. Or maybe they do but no one notices when they don’t show up to the meeting and they definitely aren’t invited to happy hour.Report

  9. CJColucci says:

    When I look out over the contemporary GOP, led, to the extent it is led, and driven by performative trolls who lack any sort of serious, non-performative legislative program and no answers to the real problems people face, either in the big cities they don’t care about or in depressed rural America that they pretend to care about, I have to say that the folly of school renaming is somewhere around the 98th out of the top 100 examples of performative idiocy.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

      Yeah, but the “so-called” Democrats in San Francisco used the 98th out of the top 100 examples as the reason to recall the school board members.

      And, I made this point multiple times in the post, three school board members were on the ballot to be recalled and three school board members were recalled. Remember the numbers?

      Gabriela Lopez recall: 75.0% Yes, 25.0% No
      Alison Collins recall: 78.6% Yes, 21.4% No
      Faauuga Moliga recall: 72.1% Yes, 27.9% No

      That’s a spread of 44.2% on the *CLOSEST* race.

      Opponents ran on, among other things, the 98th out of the top 100 examples and got that kind of a spread.

      Opponents being able to get a 44% spread in the recall using one of the worst examples seems to indicate that they’re a lot better at their performative idiocy than the current people in power.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

        Hey look, performative idiots got recalled in San Francisco, which suggests that the real problem is elsewhere.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

          Even Clara Jeffries said that the problems for the performative school board idiots were Remote learning, School names, The murals, Lowell admissions, The budget, The consultant, LGBTQ representation, Alison Collins’ racist tweets, The $87 million lawsuit, and Meetings.

          I don’t think that the problem is “elsewhere” as much as “overdetermined” and we’re going to have to entertain the idea that there are going to be multiple solutions and many of the solutions will be necessary but not sufficient.

          Or, more colloquially, many of the solutions will not be a silver bullet.

          But the fix won’t happen without them despite the fact that they are merely necessary (but not sufficient). Because they are still necessary despite not being sufficient.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

            To reiterate the point, the performative idiots in San Francisco were recalled. That’s what’s supposed to happen. And that’s what did happen.
            There are places, however, where that isn’t what happens and where performative idiocy gets rewarded. But let’s not look to closely at where or why.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

              Recalls are lagging indictors.

              But they are indicators.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                What they indicate is that some constituencies are willing and able to put a stop to performative idiocy and might not accept it in the future. Which is a certifiably good thing.
                There are places where that isn’t so, and performative idiots who need not fear what ought to be the consequences of performative idiocy. The OP might have made more sense if it had focused on the latter, rather than on a situation where things worked out as they should have.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Yeah, it’s like the teacher who does something unspeakable getting fired.

                “The system works!”

                Then you can pretend that there’s not a problem when people start talking about changing the hiring process in the first place.

                “The bad ones got fired! Why are you so fixated on this?”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Excellent question. Take it up with KD, who used an example where the system worked, while ignoring all the many examples out there of performative idiots — usually indulging in a type of performative idiocy more congenial to KD — who are in good standing with their constituencies.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Well, my answer to that question is that cracks are showing up in the façade and stuff that used to be sufficient (white flight, gated communities, school choice) have stopped working even for the progressives who thought that their performances would insulate them from their policies.

                So, having an answer to that question, I’m more interested in the façade and the debate over whether cracks exist, whether anyone is surprised that structures show wear and tear, whether other buildings are worse, or how architectural theory alternately doesn’t exist or is a solved problem.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                So, having an answer to that question, I’m more interested in the façade and the debate over whether cracks exist, whether anyone is surprised that structures show wear and tear, whether other buildings are worse, or how architectural theory alternately doesn’t exist or is a solved problem.

                Again confirming our interpretation of your preference for trolling to actually solving issues. Thanks.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                I have a handful of solutions, but they involve acknowledging the existence of the problem first.

                If you don’t want to acknowledge the existence of the problem, well… is anybody surprised that structures show wear and tear? It’s 2022!Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Democrats acknowledge the problems. They propose solutions, many of which mean paying more taxes at some levels. Republicans repudiate both the solutions and the taxation without bothering to propose counters.

                We get the house is on fire. We get the façade is cracked. We are trying to fix the façade. republicans keep taking the cement that we need, kicking the trowel out of our hands, and telling us its our fault they are doing that.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Yeah, “we need more money” is a solution, I guess, but that’s immediately going to lead to “what did you do with the old money?” discussions and if you’re in a situation where there has been Democratic rule for the last however-many-years, you might find yourself having to talk about stuff like “how did San Francisco get so messed up?” and even “I don’t think that another billion is going to help.”

                But, sure. More taxes? Huh.

                Look at the Baltimore School Districts that don’t have a single student proficient in math.

                You want to guess whether those schools get more money than average, somewhere around average, or less money than average?

                Go on, guess. You’ll never guess. Never in a million years.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                “We need more money for cops” is also a popular solution, and no one ever seems to ask, “We’ve been shoveling money into the bottomless pit of policing for 50 years, with what results?”

                ETA: Ditto for the endless wars and security state.
                And when a Democrat dares to end a war you wouldn’t believe who comes out of the woodwork to shriek.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “We need more money for cops” is also a popular solution, and no one ever seems to ask, “We’ve been shoveling money into the bottomless pit of policing for 50 years, with what results?”

                Sure there are! There are people who come out and start yelling “DEFUND THE POLICE!”

                I’m surprised that you missed that. Seriously, it was a big thing for a while there.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                really dude?

                Baltimore city schools are the tenth largest district in the US both by student population and by budget. Last year they spent $1.8 Billion, which is $22,500 per student. Miami spends $9,749. Dallas spends $14,981. New York spends $25,139. Portland spends $12,450.

                So sure, Baltimore is on the high end, but so what?

                And that aside, the zero math proficiency finding is six schools. Not all of them. Six of them. in stories from 2017.

                in 2022,

                In Baltimore City, at least 95% of the students tested in seventh and eighth grades were not proficient in math. Throughout the state, 94% were not proficient in seventh or eighth-grade math.

                https://katv.com/news/nation-world/testing-shows-massive-learning-loss-for-maryland-students-proficiency-scores-department-of-education-math-reading-language-arts-covid-shutdowns-in-person-learning#:~:text=In%20Baltimore%20City%2C%20at%20least,about%2081%25%20are%20not%20proficient.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                So sure, Baltimore is on the high end, but so what?

                I don’t think that more money is the solution.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

                It turns out, not surprisingly, that it is expensive to treat the effects of poverty after the fact.

                Because that’s what these statistics are a measure of.

                We don’t have a schools problem, we have a poverty problem. Public schools in affluent neighborhoods do very well. Schools in poor neighborhoods, not so much.

                And as others have pointed out, poverty is a function of many factors partly economic, partly racism, partly poor life choices, partly a toxic culture of instant gratification and many others.

                And as I pointed out below, for every underperforming inner city slum, there is a failing rural Trumpist town where they can match it, pile of excrement for pile of excrement, junkie for junkie, boarded up building for boarded up building, failed community for failed community.

                And those rural towns are voracious consumers of public services. Their rates of people living on disability or welfare are comparable, their rates of addiction and assaults and wife beatings are similar. The average life expectancy in many parts of the [white] working class Trumpist regions has actually declined in recent years.

                Yes, poverty and social ills are expensive to treat. Its good to see the conservatives coming around to this fact.

                It would be better if we had not forgotten these lessons learned in Europe in the 19th century, but hey, better late than never I suppose.Report

              • Zane in reply to Jaybird says:

                Of course, Republicans have a solution here. Divert public school funds to private, religious, and charter schools. And in many states, they have implemented that solution.

                When *all* school funding is diverted to private, religious, and charter schools, maybe the problems with education will go away?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Zane says:

                Hey, in the last six years, Baltimore has gone from FREAKING ZERO students proficient in math to 5% being proficient in it.

                At this rate, we’ll be at 100% proficiency in 114 years!

                I don’t think that the Republicans even have a plan to reach 100% proficiency.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

                You are stealing a base here. You can’t start talking about fixing the hiring process without first identifying a defect in the hiring process that allowed the unspeakable teacher to be hired.

                Sometimes being reactive is the only viable option.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I think that if we’re talking about “a group of parents”, we’re going to be stuck at “HOW IN THE HELL DID THIS PERSON GET HIRED?” for a bit and the reaction on the part of the school district will either be:

                A: We did nothing wrong
                B: Okay, we’ll change something to shut you stupid people up

                I’m not sure that there’s a third option.

                (I’m also not sure that A is sustainable, given San Francisco.)Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

                A is perfectly sustainable, if they did nothing wrong. Hell, the police have been using that for decades and it works fine. The reality is, if you make the hiring process too expensive for the employer or too arduous for the candidate, you will have a hard time filling vacancies.

                The question most likely to voiced by parents is, “Were you ignoring warning signs / red flags / etc.?”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I agree with the “if”.

                That’s why stuff like the LibsofTikTok is such a bad account.

                It points out a large number of what parents are likely to assume are warning signs, red flags, etc.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                The question most likely to voiced by parents is, “Were you ignoring warning signs / red flags / etc.?”.

                Do note the “warning signs” now include teaching kids to be sensitive to the feelings of others, teaching kids about actual US history, and teaching acceptance of gay and transgendered people.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to CJColucci says:

                I think Jaybird expects SF to go Republican any day now.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                From the SF Chronicle:

                “This is what happens when you try to rename the schools in the middle of a pandemic!” exclaimed David Thompson a.k.a “Gaybraham” Lincoln, an SFUSD parent dressed in head-to-toe rainbow drag and towering platform shoes, who described his persona as a form of protest. “We wanted to show the diversity of the community behind this recall. I knew they were going to say, ‘Oh isn’t it just a bunch of Republicans?’ and I’m like, do I look like a Republican?”

                Anyway, I am not Gaybraham Lincoln.

                Neither am I expecting SF to go Republican.

                However: I think I do expect Chesa to be recalled.

                Is that what it takes to be a Republican in SF? Disagree with people in power?

                So, if the definition of “Republican” is “disagrees with people in power”, I’d say that, yes, I *DO* expect SF to go Republican.

                (But, let me point out, that is not the definition of “Republican” that I normally use in day-to-day life.)Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to Jaybird says:

                I voted to recall the school board as did many other people. I fully agree that the decision was done poorly with bad research and deserved to be mocked. This does not mean, I or anyone else in this city is going to become Republican soon. It means we are adults who can make corrective moves if we see someone being silly.

                Would you say Boebert’s antics or Cawthorn’s antics should make their constituents consider voting Democratic?Report

              • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                It means we are adults who can make corrective moves if we see someone being silly.

                This is an excellent sentiment.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                Well Cawthorn lost his primary, so at the very least his constituents didn’t want him anymore.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                ” It means we are adults who can make corrective moves if we see someone being silly.”

                when you do it, you’re making corrective moves because you saw someone being silly.

                when I do it, it’s a right-wing ragemob of idiots stirred up by racist grifters, mobbing someone who dared have opinions about the rights of women and minorities.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

                I voted to recall the school board as did many other people.

                So you have gone Republican already.

                Soon you will start having strong opinions about sporting events.Report

  10. Oscar Gordon says:

    At the risk of BSDI, the current GOP is exercising performative over performance, they just have a different schtick, one focused mostly on their ability to mimic Trump. Before that, a lot of the GOP was in a performative dance for the Evangelical Right.

    The fact is that politicians of both parties are engaged in performative over performance because it gets them past the primaries and into office.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I’ve found that whenever there is a complaint about Democrats, BSDI is welcomed. Encouraged. DEMANDED!

      It’s only when there is a complaint about Republicans that BSDI is condemned.

      BSDI away!Report

    • Douglas Hayden in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Its a Citizens United world and we’re stuck living in it. Cash rules everything around me, CREAM get the money, dolla dolla bill y’all.Report

    • Chris in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      In her previous post on this site, she defended GOP performativeness as actual performance, so I suspect that this is going to fall on deaf ears.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Chris says:

        Is that really your complaint about DeSantis, that he’s not being aggressive enough?Report

        • Chris in reply to Pinky says:

          I don’t think that would be the OP’s complaint about the SF schoolboard members either, would it? The issue isn’t that they’re doing nothing whatsoever; it’s that what they’re doing isn’t actually addressing real, existing issues. The “grooming” stuff, the anti-CRT stuff, etc., are the conservative equivalent (and much, much worse, given the scale and aggressiveness) of removing Lincoln’s name from schools.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Chris says:

            I guess the question comes down to whether you think DeSantis is addressing a real issue or not. That’s been one of the frustrating things in the Florida debate, with some teachers saying this would never happen and others (or even the same teachers) saying it’s a big deal. I think the accusation of performativeness is that the officials aren’t addressing the real problem. So how can you call DeSantis’s bill performative? Do you see a real issue that he failed to address? Or did he simply not address the issue aggressively enough?Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

              Is the Republican laser-like obsession with other people’s sexuality considered performance or perfomative-ness?

              I mean, Texas can’t even keep the power on, but they can dispatch government agents to ferret out a loving parent who is supportive of a trans kid.Report

            • Chris in reply to Pinky says:

              If you think there’s an issue addressed by “grooming” and anti-CRT issues, you’re exactly the target of performativeness, and it’s working. It’s not like we couldn’t find teachers or parents who think Lincoln’s name shouldn’t be on the school(s).Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

              Or, perhaps, he jumped on an issue that was being dealt with at the local level, and put it on blast so he could engage in some performative antics.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          Oh he’s plenty aggressive. And its all for show. Remember when he roped the state legislature into canning off Disney’s special administrative district after Disney had the temerity to go on record as opposing his legislative agenda as it related to gay people?

          I do, because now that the ramifications are clear, like someone has to pay for fire service and police and sewer and water (and ramifications that could have been foreseen with even 10 minutes of forethought), the good Governor ahs said the state should take over running Reedy Creek so the Counties are PREVENTED from increasing taxes on local property owners to fund those services. Because apparently the counties are only weighing into the fight because all they want to do is raise taxes.

          So yeah he’s being aggressive – and badly so because he intends to further erode small government to keep Disney penned in.Report

          • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

            So you’re saying that continuing to allow a multi billion dollar corporation special legal rights IS THE CORRECT THING TO DO? Sure you could make the argument that at the beginning it might have been a jobs provided and such, but that deal should have been subject to sunset long ago. BTW, I’m generally opposed to deals like this or other examples like stadium funding, etc.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

              I’m saying that the merits of the actual situation – including impacts to local residents – wasn’t debated by anyone, not even the people who are supposed to represent them. And that’s wrong. If the Reedy Creek District needs to go fine – but this isn’t how to do it, and it wasn’t a thing anyone was pushing for until Disney told the Governor to pipe down on gay people.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Damon says:

              A lot of people are “generally opposed to deals like this,” and if some actual, working politician put together a coherent program to put an end to “deals like this” there would be lots of support for it.
              But that’s not what’s on offer. What’s on offer is “deals like this” or “deals like this but only if you toe the line and not piss me off.”
              Do you really need an explanation of why the latter is far worse than the former?Report

              • Damon in reply to CJColucci says:

                ” “deals like this but only if you toe the line and not piss me off.” That’s exactly what the deal was. It wasn’t explicit, but it was implicit. It worked for decades. Don’t f-ing bite the hand the feeds you. This was something the Florida legislature could take away anytime they wanted, and they did. Live by the sword, die by it. I really don’t have that much sympathy. Yes, it could have been done more smoothly….Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                This was something the Florida legislature could take away anytime they wanted, and they did.

                Except the initial law that was also passed b ythe Florida legislature only allowed dissolution by a vote of the majority stakeholders – who aren’t the Florida legislature. That alone is going to take years to litigate out.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                Well that sounds like a lawyer employment act 🙂Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

                My initial thought is that “The legislature cannot bind future legislatures” would race up the Florida court system and be settled. More problematic, if they do what DeSantis is threatening, is dumping a billion dollars of special district bonds off on a private company. A quick no-no, I think.

                Most problematic will be whether the state can force the counties to become utilities. As I read the Florida constitution, the counties would have to take on the debt but would also acquire the assets and service responsibilities. I don’t know what the exact relationship is between the state and counties in Florida. In Colorado, there’s a ton of case law settling that counties are creatures of the state, and must do what they are told unless there’s specific language in the constitution.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Again, the governor is now on record as saying the Reedy Creek District should become, in effect, property of the state so that counties are not allowed (his words) to tax their residents for these services. I also forgot to add he insists this will enforce Disney’s new found tax liability to be complied with.,

                The legal minutae are, frankly, less problematic that a siting governor and presidential hopeful trying to use the state to attack a single business for its political views in a post-Citizens United world..Report

  11. Chip Daniels says:

    This essay and the comments by our Republican commenter, exemplify performative politics.

    In all the complaints about Democratic run cities, there isn’t even a glimmer of an idea.

    There exists nowhere, a Republican idea of how a city should be run. There are no Republican ideas of how to handle homelessness, poverty, or underperfoming schools.

    All their ideas amount to exclusion and escape, not solutions. White flight, gated communities, school choice…these are just escapist fantasies, not solutions.
    The one exception to this is their solution to crime which is Make The Rabble Obey.

    So Democrat ideas win by default.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      our Republican commenter

      The Reagan voter?

      In all the complaints about Democratic run cities, there isn’t even a glimmer of an idea.

      I see a benefit to arguing that “there is a problem” as a starting point.

      It’s not a finishing point, not at all.

      But if the opening of the debate is “there is a problem”, the “there is not a problem” counter-argument shouldn’t be side-by-side with a “BUT YOU HAVEN’T PROPOSED A SOLUTION!”

      Do we agree that there’s a problem? If there’s not a problem, it’s kind of silly to demand solutions. Maybe there’s not a problem.

      But being upset that there hasn’t been a solution offered when we don’t even know whether there’s a problem is to jump ahead without a foundation having been set.

      Do you agree that there is a problem?

      So Democrat ideas win by default.

      There are a bunch of things that have happened in the last 10 years. Seriously. They’re worth remembering even if the directive went out that we shouldn’t remember things.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

        Given that the Democrats are always going around proposing solutions to problems, yeah we all agree there is a problem.

        These things that have happened over the past ten years- were any of them Republicans actually making things better, anywhere?

        Because I’d need to see a cite on that claim.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Eh, some of them do. Others just yell “bigot bigot bigot bigot” like someone said the word into a synthesizer and now they’re just running around hitting A over High C over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

          These things that have happened over the past ten years- were any of them Republicans actually making things better, anywhere?

          The assertion that I was responding to was “Democrat ideas win by default.”Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      The fallacy of begging the question. Once you assume that opposition to Chip’s ideas is racism, then it follows that there are no good Republican ideas, only racist ones. So Chip’s ideas win by default.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        Man, ya talk about Great Replacement every night, and people jump to the conclusion you’re a racist.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          The problem is that everything you hear sounds to you like Great Replacement theory. Taxes, crime, education, whatever. You’ve said that you can’t hear anything but racism, but other people can. This is a you problem.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Republican urban ideals seem to be a capitalist version of Stalin’s barrack city. The good people should live in gated communities or at least distant low density suburbs and drive to office parks for work. An actual dense urban area is for the undesirable people who must be kept out of the good spaces and their should be no down towns or transit. Everybody drives everywhere and if you don’t have a care that is your fault.Report

      • Pinky in reply to LeeEsq says:

        …said no Republican ever. Gated communities are liberal havens. The Republican goal is to make the urban areas more livable because the good people there and everywhere outnumber the bad. That will require law enforcement though. Republicans don’t often get elected in urban areas, due to racial voting patterns, but when someone like Giuliani gets in he can do a lot of good.

        I’d say any honest discussion of Republican versus Democratic urban policy would have to center on crime. I wish the GOP would push education reform more, but it rarely goes anywhere.Report

  12. Zane says:

    There’s a theme that always comes up in discussions like these: Why do these foolish people continue to elect those who cannot solve the problems of the day? Democrats in big cities, Republicans in Kansas–we could list many examples.

    I read a piece a few years ago that noted that Republicans were less likely to take science and scientists seriously because scientists were so heavily Democratic as voters. The author called upon scientists to support Republicans in an effort to make the party more amenable to them.

    But this seems entirely backward to me. Why would *anyone* vote for members of a party that is antithetical to their interests, beliefs, and values? If Republicans want to run big cities, they need to tailor their message and actions to the voters of those cities. It can be done. Cleveland has been bright blue for a long time, but George Voinovich managed to become mayor for two terms, and went on to be governor and senator. He became mayor in 1980 in part because of the incumbent’s vast unpopularity, but he became successful because he didn’t attack his city or its people.

    When Republicans can successfully demonstrate that they’re not hostile to big city inhabitants and the issues important to them, perhaps they will see electoral success in those cities.

    (By the way, continuing to use “Democrat” rather than “Democratic” as the adjective form of the party name comes across as wholly “owning the libs is the important thing” behavior. Politeness may be performative, but disrespect earns no friends.)Report

    • Pinky in reply to Zane says:

      Zane, I agree with your last paragraph wholeheartedly.

      As to the general conversation, it wasn’t that long ago that Giuliani’s name was associated with good management.Report

      • Zane in reply to Pinky says:

        Thanks, Pinky.

        Yeah, Giuliani. The disintegration of someone with incredible popularity and apparent political savvy. But yes, he’s an example of how Republicans can run and win in liberal places. (Though New York City probably wasn’t as liberal as its reputation for a lot of its history.)Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Zane says:

      Remember these two points:

      1. Every accusation is a confession; and

      2. It’s okay when you are Republican.

      That will explain everything in this post.Report

    • Douglas Hayden in reply to Zane says:

      I’m curious to see how Weingart does in his bid for the county chair this year. The environment is perfect for him: Republican favorable midterms, Budish getting caught in the cookie jar while Dimora and Russo are still in recent memory, and Weingart having some favorable history in the area. I still think Ronayne’s the heavy favorite and definitely the heavy funding favorite, but we shall see.Report

      • Zane in reply to Douglas Hayden says:

        I have to admit I’ve not been following the local election stuff this year, but Weingart’s website actually shows an effort to talk about issues in a way that highlights his support of ethnic and racial minority contractors, his ability to work with (rather than demonizing) organized labor, and his desire to streamline the process of applying for and receiving social services. He has a history of running the campaign to pass Cuyahoga County’s social service levy. If he can get traction, he’s going about things in a way that would be appealing to voters here.

        (He approvingly cites “The New Jim Crow” book!)Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Zane says:

      “continuing to use “Democrat” rather than “Democratic” as the adjective form of the party name”

      T R I G G E R E DReport

      • Zane in reply to DensityDuck says:

        Really? Not at all.

        Just noting that the consistent use of terms like “Democrat politicians” is signaling among the Right. “I have no respect for these fishing idiots, just like you, my fellow liberal-haters.”

        In other words, perfectly fine when venting fury to the like-minded, but guaranteed to alienate if trying to be persuasive to anyone else. It indicates that Kristin isn’t really trying to persuade anyone or engage in two-way conversation. She just wants to stir shirt up.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Zane says:

          As a conservative, I find the missing “ic” annoying and disrespectful. I don’t think it’s done with conscious malice though. It’s just become very common.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

            Conscious malice is now, and always has been, very common. There’s a long history of it, with such revered practitioners as Joe McCarthy and Bob Dole. If it were simply “very common,” you’d expect to see non-malicious people using it, including some Democrats. But you don’t.Report

          • Zane in reply to Pinky says:

            I suspect it’s sometimes done intentionally. Kind of like continuing to mispronounce Kamala Harris’s name. Yes, it’s an uncommon name, but it’s not difficult once you learn the correct pronunciation.

            I think sometimes communicating the disrespect is the goal.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Zane says:

          “Really? Not at all.”

          lol

          “im not triggered YOUR TRIGGERED”

          protip: people who don’t care about something don’t usually reply to comments about itReport

          • Zane in reply to DensityDuck says:

            Well, you’ve set up the perfect trap, then! “If Zane comments on my post, I’ve proven he’s a snowflake. If Zane fails to comment on my post, my frame of his motivation will stand unchecked!”

            Very clever, sir. I have no option but to acknowledge your most excellent trolling.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Zane says:

              Your pose of “Oh I’m not that upset” is somewhat belied by the fact that not only did you start posting about it, you keep posting about itReport

    • Pinky in reply to Zane says:

      A bit of a tangent, but I wanted to comment about that article on science. I really don’t think there’s an anti-science bent among Republicans broadly. (Evangelicals, maybe.) There’s a willingness to listen to experts, but a natural wariness when the experts start demanding power. I’d say that if you took climate change and rainbow matters off the table, the average D and R would have equal respect for science.

      Climate change is always going to be a hard sell, particularly to those of us old enough to remember “the approaching ice age”. If there are practical proposals put forward that include pollution reduction, they have a chance, but if it’s endorsed by the international community, it’s going to be a harder sell.

      As for sex-related things, it’s incalculable how much damage the left has done to itself and its claims of scientific superiority. A person can’t claim to follow the science and not know if a boy is a girl, or claim that an expectant mother isn’t carrying a child. That’s the caricature of expertise: studying the obscure but being unable to see the obvious.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

        That’s a lot of misrepresenting the science in order to foster distrust.

        And I get where you are coming from regarding scientists demanding a seat at the policy table, but don’t conflate the two points.

        They are separate issues and should be treated so.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          Sorry, could you clarify?Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

            “A person can’t claim to follow the science and not know if a boy is a girl…”

            Is that what the science says, or is that what someone told you the science says?

            I’ve talked many times about how bad normal science journalism is, where journalists who have only a thin understanding of what a given bit of research says, then try to parse that so layman can grasp it, while filtering it through their own biases.

            Now tack onto that the Pundit / Twitter set, who aren’t even trying to present information free of bias, and you get some very colorful, very wrong, hot takes regarding what any given science says. And finally, we have the opposition Pundit / Twitter population who spend their disturbingly large amount of free time (seriously, don’t these people have jobs?) nutpicking those hot takes to fuel their own hot take.

            So, are you sure that is what the science says, or are you perhaps missing critical context and information that would facilitate an alternative, more rational statement?Report

            • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              I guess I was being facetious without realizing it. So let me break down what I meant by, “A person can’t claim to follow the science and not know if a boy is a girl, or claim that an expectant mother isn’t carrying a child.”

              A male is a male, a female is a female, an infant still in the womb is an infant. These statements are true. Science is a means for pointing toward truth, so properly-used science should never move from truth to untruth. People who deny the most basic facts cannot claim to be the protectors of truth. The denial of sexual reality has done equivalent damage to the reputation of the left as young Earth creationism has done to the reputation of the right. Furthermore, the use of statistics and medicine to reinforce these false claims causes damage to the institutions that participate in it.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                A male is a male, a female is a female, an infant still in the womb is an infant. These statements are true. Science is a means for pointing toward truth, so properly-used science should never move from truth to untruth. People who deny the most basic facts cannot claim to be the protectors of truth. The denial of sexual reality has done equivalent damage to the reputation of the left as young Earth creationism has done to the reputation of the right. Furthermore, the use of statistics and medicine to reinforce these false claims causes damage to the institutions that participate in it.

                Oh boy. You don’t even see it, do you? The misrepresentation, and the bad policy it leads to. The human suffering it enables. The unchristian grace it withholds.

                What you call truth is, in fact, not – there are 6 genetically distinct genders in the human genome. Europeans humans have, culturally, tried to shove those genders into two constructs which people are “allowed” to present, nmaley Male and Female. Other cultures – including many eastern cultures and most First Nations/Native American cultures recognize multiple gender identities. What science and medicine and psychology have learned is that in some cases – granted its a small number compared to the whole population – trying to force certain people into one of those two socially acceptable presentations doesn’t work because their brain isn’t wired to match their body. It causes enormous psychological trauma, and that trauma can either be addressed by well formed psychological treatment followed by specific hormones and surgeries, or that trauma can actively be ignored, actively oppressed and the general result is significant harmful behavior up to and including suicide. Science tell us firmly that the suffering and deaths of these people can be avoided by affirmative attention and following a certain prescription (like literally). As an alleged pro-life person I’d think you be in support of science that means more people live more healthy lives.

                Science, as a process, as an “institution” is NEVER about absolutes. Its a way to ask about unknowns, to gather information and reach new conclusions. Science is never static nor is it meant to be. Asserting that science and scientific institutions are harming themselves by doing what they are formulated to do – which is to change their view of the world based on new data – is like saying rain water is harming itself by being wet.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I didn’t say anything about gender; I was talking about sex. I didn’t say anything about the chromosomal variations, but every time you bring them up I give the same explanation, but you never respond.

                Note that I didn’t say that science was static, either. But it shouldn’t move from the true to the false. The things you’ve said about sex are false (see every previous conversation we’ve had on the subject); therefore it’s not properly-applied science.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                Note that I didn’t say that science was static, either. But it shouldn’t move from the true to the false.

                Science doesn’t move form true to false Pinky. It moves from true based on these data to true based on these data plus those data. And I said the same thing Oscar said, but in slightly different words. I didn’t think I needed to be a pedantic as he was. Clearly I was wrong.

                I get that you don’t like the policy and legal implications of that evolution, but “science” doesn’t care about your feelings.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I don’t know how many times you’ve talked about “genetic genders”. That’s not my confusion, that’s yours. The realm of genetics is not the realm of genders.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                The realm of genetics is not the realm of genders.

                Science disagrees with you:

                At a genetic level, sex in humans is primarily correlated with sex chromosomes –
                XX in “typical” females, XY in “typical” males – but a variety of genes on other
                chromosomes influence the development of sexual features.

                • A small but significant portion of the population does not fit into the male-female
                binary sex categorization. These individuals are usually referred to as “intersex.”

                • One category of intersex conditions arises when individuals have an atypical
                number of sex chromosomes. These individuals can exhibit a wide range of
                physical, cognitive and reproductive characteristics.

                • Another category of intersex conditions results from genetic variants that affect
                the development of the reproductive system. These individuals may have sexual
                features that are ambiguous or different from what are typically expected based
                on their sex chromosomes.

                • The gender identity of intersex individuals often cannot be predicted from the
                “maleness” or “femaleness” of their sexual features, underscoring the complexity of how gender (the behavioral and social dimensions of being a man, woman,
                both or neither) maps onto sex.

                • Transgender individuals are those whose gender identity does not conform with
                the gender typically associated with their physical or chromosomal sex.

                • Third gender or other non-binary gender identities have been recognized by
                different cultures around the world and throughout history.

                • There is some preliminary, but still controversial, scientific research into the roles
                of genetic and environmental factors (including levels of sex hormone exposure
                in the womb) in shaping an individual’s gender identity.

                Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                There are 8 points in this. The first four address sex. The second 4 involve gender; no.’s 6 & 7 are solely about culture and behaviour, while 5 describes a case in which sex isn’t a predictor of gender, and the final one says that scientific research is preliminary and controversial. In other words: the points you presented demonstrate my thesis.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                “I didn’t say anything about gender; I was talking about sex.”

                But is that what the science you were thinking about was talking about?

                This is my point, the topics of biological sex & gender use a lot of the same terms, but those terms have different implications depending on if you are talking about sex or gender.

                If we talk about biological sex, AND we exclude children born intersex, then yes, boys are male and girls are female.

                But is that what was being talked about, or are you, or someone upstream of you, making an assumption based on the terms, without fully understanding the relevant research? I.e. did you read the actual research, or are you getting the information 2nd or 3rd hand?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                A human at birth will generally have male or female genitalia (i.e. the sex of the baby). But intersex babies are a thing (born with a mix of male and female characteristics). It’s a small percentage, but it’s non-zero.

                Intersex kids can have surgery to establish the sex binary, but doctors tend to want to wait until the kid figures out which way their brain is wired (this is gender, btw) before doing the surgery, because there’s no do-overs if they get it wrong.

                For most kids, intersex is not an issue. The sex at birth is obvious.

                Gender at birth is not. For that, you have to wait until brain development is much further along.

                Sex & gender are not the same thing. One is hardware, the other is software. The problem we have is that we use a lot of the same terms for sex and gender (sex and gender both use male & female); and gender (along with sexual preferences) both operate along a spectrum, while sex itself tends to be binary.

                When talking about these things, it’s critical to know if the research is talking about sex, or gender, or preferences, and how these things intersect & interact.

                Thus saying “A male is a male, a female is a female…” is not true. A baby may have male or female genitals, or both. For most babies, a male is a male if they have all male parts is true, but that is only relevant to the question of biological sex. It says nothing about the gender of the baby, and you can’t know anything about that for quite a few years.

                So are you talking about sex, or gender?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Apparently both and neither.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I am not aware of any increase in genetic or developmental dysfunction in the sexual realm. There has been a marked increase in unconventional gender identification, however, and much of that has gotten confused with science. My original comment was about science, and that’s my area of interest. I’m willing to take a liberal view of gender, but people are clearly confusing it with sex.

                A male is a male. Nearly all males have an XY chromosomal set, and nearly all have male genitalia. A male may feel feminine or masculine at different times, or have different degrees of attraction to the same or opposite sex – those things fall in the realm of gender.

                I don’t see how I can make the distinction clearer, and the fact that the distinction now has to be made is a sign of a misunderstanding of science.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Still not answering the question fully.

                So you are talking about the question of biological sex, and setting aside the rare instances of intersex babies.

                Are you absolutely certain that the science you seem to take issue with was talking about biological sex that sets aside cases of intersex?

                This is what I am trying to drive at. You are talking about biological sex, but you read something that seemed to making an illogical statement regarding biological sex and wrapping itself in the cloak of science.

                Are you certain that the claim you take issue with was in reality talking about biological sex and only biological sex? Have you read the research in question?

                Or are you taking someone else’s word on it?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                In more than 99% of cases, an XY presents as male and an XX presents as female. There are cases of genetic abnormality that Philip keeps bringing up, but as far as I’ve been able to tell, they’re unrelated to intersex, and they clearly present as male or female.

                A person can’t change his / her genetic code. I look to the genetic code when talking about a person’s sex. I think we all do. Our understanding of genetics has helped us to realize that some people who outwardly present as one sex are actually the other. The only ambiguity in matter of sexual identification is in abnormal genetics or development.

                I believe that I’m a man. I present as a male, even if it’s nothing to write home about. I’ve never been genetically tested, nor have I had children, so I could be wrong in my self-assessment. But whatever my sex, it is a fact. Any claim that a sex can change is un-factual.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                If, as you assert, sex is based entirely on outward physical presentation in combination with genetics, boy oh boy do you have problem. Because those secondary physical sex characteristics can, in fact, be changed by hormone replacement and surgery.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                It’s a good thing that I didn’t assert that.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                oh but you did:

                Any claim that a sex can change is un-factual.

                Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                That’s proof I didn’t say that! You should be an editor – you picked out the single best sentence to demonstrate that I didn’t say what you said I did!Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Pinky, you just spent 3 paragraphs not answering my question.

                Are you certain that the claim you take issue with was in reality talking about biological sex and only biological sex? Have you read the research in question?

                Or are you taking someone else’s word on it?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                “Are you certain that the claim you take issue with was in reality talking about biological sex and only biological sex?”

                How else am I supposed to take the statement that a man can become a woman? Driver’s licenses and other official documents? If I’m missing something here, then people like Philip should be admitting “ok, no, I’m not talking about sex, I’m talking about gender, sorry for the confusion”.

                “Have you read the research in question?”

                Not all of it, but I’ve read more about intersex and sexual presentation than I ever expected to, as they’re the only cases where classification might be difficult.

                If I’m failing to answer your question, please clarify.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Depends on the level of discussion.

                If we are talking genetics…

                If we are simply talking about an adult taking steps to make their physical characteristics match their gender identity, sex change surgery has been a thing for a long time now.

                If we are simply talking about government documents, they can say whatever they government is willing to let them say. If they government is willing to allow Brad Smith to be Betty Smith, because it makes Betty feel better about herself, and there is no evidence of fraud or intent to commit fraud, why shouldn’t they?

                Why should you or I care one way or another?

                I mean, you are a conservative, right. You certainly seem to lean in that general direction. Why should the government be getting so deeply involved in a persons life that they can officially tell them that they are male or female?

                Do you get this upset about a blonde woman who was born a brunette putting blonde on her drivers license because she bleaches her hair?

                I was born blonde, and if I stop shaving my head, my blonde hair will grow out (except for at the top). My official government docs show me as bald, despite the fact that I can grow blonde hair.

                Sex is clearly not an immutable characteristic anymore, so why should the government insist that it is?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                As a conservative, I believe in conserving things, including truth. If some truth was recognized yesterday and isn’t today, I’m obligated to fight on its behalf.

                Also, I feel like you just gave the game away in your last sentence. Why did I go through the effort of defining sex and gender and how the terms were misused if you were going to simply say “sex is clearly not an immutable characteristic anymore”? That would have saved me a ton of time.

                Traditionally, gender is a property of words, not of people. But if you guys want to use the term to refer to a state of mind, I’ll give you that. But you have to stick to it. You’ve given up the right to say “sex change”. If the new rule is that gender refers to state of mind and sex refers to whatever, I object. Sex has to refer to a biological trait.

                Also, if this were 10 years ago, you could maybe argue that the terminology is a matter of courtesy. But it’s becoming a matter of law, of compulsion.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                If some truth was recognized yesterday and isn’t today, I’m obligated to fight on its behalf.

                If some truth was recognized yesterday and isn’t today because our knowledge has changed, are you still obligated thusly? It reads as being inflexible and unwilling to adapt.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                The third word states that the thing being discussed is true. Regarding our current debate, the truth about sex hasn’t changed.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                If some truth was recognized yesterday and isn’t today, I’m obligated to fight on its behalf.

                That isn’t true at all. Conservatives like to imagine an unbroken continuity to which they are faithful, but they change and innovate whenever the whim strikes them

                Like, there are no conservatives anywhere who have any memory of a pre-New Deal world, and almost none who have an adult memory of a pre-Civil Rights Act world, and very few who have an adult memory of a pre-Roe world.

                They all grew up in a world where the truth was one thing, but are determined to now change it to something none of them have ever experienced.

                It’s important because they are the furthest thing from “traditional” or “conservative” but are actually radicals, at war with the world they grew up in.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Reading is good.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                This is drifting far from our original topic, but whatever…

                How do you define sex then? Is it the genetics? Is it the plumbing?

                Should our government ID simply list the sex chromosomes we were born with? It’s XX or XY (or XXY in some rare cases).

                But why should the government care to list sex at all on an ID, or in a document? We live in an age of equal rights, don’t we? Men & women are equal under the law, so what sex a person is isn’t really relevant to government interests, is it?

                Really, the only purpose it serves is for identification sake. Person A is male and predominately presents as male, hence having male on the ID is a useful point of identification. But if person A presents as female the vast majority of the time, and perhaps has outward female characteristics (like breasts), listing female on the ID isn’t really helpful for identification purposes. And what if the person has had gender re-assignment surgery?

                So what is the governmental interest in having an official biological sex on an ID? Why is that ‘truth’ important to you? Why is the ‘truth’ about hair color not important?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I’ve answered the first part already; as for the rest, I’ll admit that my queasiness about governmental recording of genetics is inconsistent with casual acceptance of governmental recording of apparent sex.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Admitting that your position is based in whole or in part upon feeling, rather than a hard rational analysis, is a good first step. I will admit that once upon a time I also felt that way, that being crystal clear about a persons biological sex is important.

                But the fvcks I have available to give are finite, and I used up way too many in my youth, and I am running very low on them. Caring about how a person wants to identify themselves, absent an intent to commit fraud, is just one fvck I don’t have to give.

                And let’s be honest, of the people who may want to alter their sex on an official government document (like an ID), 99% of them are going to make that change exactly once. It should be treated like a name change, you file some paperwork, and boom, it’s changed.Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I would say the begging the question fallacy going on is the belief that there is some independently observable physical trait called gender which is itself independent of all the rest of biology we know about. Maybe one day someone will discover that to be true but for now that is a metaphysical assertion, not a scientific one. It’s also not a premise I’d be particularly enthusiastic about given the retrograde implications and behavioral stereotypes on which it would have to rely.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                Gender is not merely, or perhaps in any way, an “independent observable physical trait.” It is a social category, and was so even before issues of transgender identity became part of the political discourse.

                What’s more, we can actually talk about the biology of gender in a way that is not entirely correlated with biological sex (see, e.g., the neuroscience of gender dysphoria).

                If we’re going to have this conversation in a sophisticated way, y’all transphobes are going to have to stop straw-manning those with whom you disagree, and you’re going to have to develop a significantly more sophisticated knowledge of sex, gender, culture, and neuroscience. There’s a deep irony in believing that, in your ignorance, y’all are somehow less confused than the people who disagree with you.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chris says:

                Forget it, Chris. It’s the Pinky Rule in action.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                Heh, did you use the term ‘ya’ll’ enough to get your activist cookie for the day? I certainly hope so.

                Anyway I’m more along the lines of let the tom boys be tom boys and sensitive guys be sensitive guys and everything else in between. If in adulthood someone decides they’d be happiest living the social conventions of the opposite sex well that’s none of my (or anyone else’s) business and I wish that person the best. None of that merits a bunch of made up fairy tales about mysterious gender spirits we’re all born with but that no one can independently assess.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                Here’s how I see it. Working off my mental impairment analogy, back when everyone was just slow, or worse, the default was to treat them as dumb, or institutionalize them.

                These days, we know that developmental delays and/or impairment has a number of causes, and identifying the correct issue early means we can begin the correct, useful interventions early. A kid with autism can be placed on the spectrum, and often with early intervention, can live a healthy, independent life*.

                But identifying things early is key.

                Identifying a kid with a gender issue early likewise means that the kid can avoid a whole lot of developmental trauma as they diverge from the rest of their age cohort.

                Additionally, much like with cognitive development issues, getting the cohort to be tolerant and accepting of a peer who is divergent avoids a lot of trauma.

                So a lot of the messaging you see in schools is not about making kids question their gender, it’s about letting them know that if they are curious, it’s OK; and conditioning the rest of the cohort to be accepting of a member that is divergent. Having a scientific basis for the divergence is a great way to build a foundation for that acceptance.

                *I have a cousin on the spectrum. One of the most profound interventions was a companion/service dog that he can take everywhere.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                I’m in Texas, and from a small town in Tennessee, raised by a country-ass father from central Georgia. I’ve used y’all pretty much every day of my life since I could speak. Fixin’ta as well, just so ya know. I’ve often used it online, since first being online (circa ’93) as a way of expressing condescension. I see that came across, at least.

                And once again, you express an incredibly facile, and to be honest, comically silly understanding of gender, even as a basic thing independent of transgender issues. If you’d like some literature, I’d be happy to send you some. Maybe start with Second Sex, though. It was perhaps the most eye-opening book I read on the subject when I was young and still skeptical of feminism.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                If you believe that which is provable and repeatable is facile I doubt I’ll change your mind.

                To me it seems preferable to the sophistry of arguing that gender is both a complex and ephemeral social category that requires nuance to comprehend yet is also so simple, straightforward, and well documented that we can randomly throw it into elementary school curriculums.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                Just saying it’s provable be and repeatable doesn’t make it so. I mean, you’re not even operating on the actual level of biological sex. You’re at like a 1st grader’s level of understanding of the issues here, and as you’ve done elsewhere on this site, you fall back on straw-manning those who disagree and declaring the science is on your side. It’s boring and bigoted.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                Oh I think I understand it well enough. I also think I do a better job of explaining my positions than hand waving to the obscure academic journals that prove you’re right and everyone who disagrees is a bigot (talk about truly boring) but as always ymmv.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                Remember the good old days when you could look at a person and know that they had Down’s Syndrome, and that their mental development would be impaired? And anyone who didn’t show mongoloid characteristics was just slow, or mentally retarded?

                And now we know that all of that exists on a spectrum, some of it related to Down’s, some to autism, and some to actual brain damage or neurological development issues unrelated to either (birth defects, fetal alcohol, fetal drug exposure, etc.).

                Sometimes it’s not begging the question, sometimes it’s expanding the paradigm we’ve gotten used to operating under.Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I think the spectrum thing sounds all well and good but I’m skeptical about the kind of strong consensus you’d need to put in place hard and fast rules with respect to this particular issue. Absence of evidence isn’t necessarily evidence of absence but there seems to me like a lot of major, and motivated overstatements about what we do and don’t know.

                But here’s where I probably can meet you. If children are troubled by issues of sex and gender then I would think any course of action requires very careful diagnosis by trained professionals with a duty to move slowly and first do no harm. Conversely I would never trust a clinician that puts heavy emphasis on self-diagnosis by the patient, for this or anything else. No responsible person would. However, assuming a parent and child have been counseled in a particular way by a competent doctor, I say, absent a really good reason not to, we (royally speaking) and the state should err on the side of accepting that family’s decision.

                But none of that applies to public school teachers or administrators which is really what the fuss has been about.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                Where schools enter into this (and I will admit that the number that do this clumsily is > 0) is fostering an environment of acceptance.

                It is not their job to be doing clinical diagnosis, etc. I mean, my kid has ADD, no way in hell would I want his teachers making that call, and he’s had outstanding teachers. What they did do was let us know that he’s been exhibiting signs of of ADD/ADHD, and we should have him evaluated.

                The pros said he has ADD, here is a med he can try, and here is what the school can do to help him out.

                What the teachers do in the classroom is to foster an environment where the other kids, the ones who are not coping with ADD/ADHD, do not see my kid as an aberration that is ripe for teasing or bullying or whatnot. Part of that fostering is making sure the other kids are aware that ADD/ADHD is a thing (it’s not a made up excuse for bad kids), and that there is nothing bad about the fact that my kid has it.

                Likewise kids with autism*, or other developmental issues that are not severe enough to remove them from the regular population, but which do require understanding and acceptance.

                Likewise with kids who may be struggling with gender issues. Or sexual orientation.

                And while it may seem odd to foster sex/gender acceptance in younger kids, the fact is that kids don’t just exist within their age cohort. They have parents and older siblings and extended family that fall outside the nuclear and binary, and kids need to know that such things are also acceptable**.

                I mean, we did the same thing with skin color some decades ago, right?

                *The other kids in my cousins classroom don’t get to be jealous or intolerant of the fact that my cousin has a service dog. They also need to learn that the dog is not a plaything, nor is it to be abused.

                ** The issue here is not fostering acceptance, it’s making sure that the material is presented in an age appropriate manner.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Oscar, this is entirely too humane and sensible. And what about the parents who don’t want anyone to foster sex/gender acceptance in their kids, Goddammit!Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to CJColucci says:

                I do believe Parochial Schools exist…Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Believe it, Hell, I’ve seen them.Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                It all depends. I’m not and never have been losing sleep over ‘be kind to others, no matter how they express themselves’ and not tolerating bullying for any reason.

                On the other hand it’s not hard to see how stupid some of this stuff is if followed to its natural bureaucratic conclusion. If the end result is school personnel suggesting that girls who would rather play football might really in some way be boys or that a boy who prefers reading might really have the gender identity of a girl, I’d say that’s pretty reactionary and wrongheaded. If that leads to encouragement of medicalization, particularly at a young age, I’d say it’s downright evil. It also illustrates why race isn’t a useful comparison. It’s not going to be medicalized and at least up until 5 minutes ago we’d never tolerate an educational institution characterizing a studious black child as displaying white attributes. Or at least where it happened we would see it as a very negative thing that must not be allowed to happen.

                Point being, tolerance is just fine and appropriate. Universalizing gender ideology on the other hand is no more appropriate or based in science than would be bringing in the Sunday school teacher to give a talk about the Christian understanding of the soul. Absent some good limiting principles and a lot of discretion it could potentially be even worse.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                I was in fact one of those shy sensitive boys who loved reading to rough and tumble sports. And I suspect quite a few others here were as well.

                So my question is to my fellow nerds-
                Suppose a well meaning teacher suggested that “a boy who prefers reading might really have the gender identity of a girl”?

                How would you have reacted? Would you nod and say why yes, certainly let me start wearing dresses straightaway and perhaps start drawing little hearts over my “is?

                Would you move on to suddenly developing a crush on teenage boy bands?
                And then decide that well of course I should undergo medical surgery to live my life as a woman!

                If this sounds silly, then why should we think that there is some big risk of mistakenly encouraging cis boys to become trans?

                Was your gender identity so fragile that it would have been changed by subtle yet misguided cues?

                It reminds me of the rhetoric about homosexuality, that it was the natural order of things, but could be thwarted simply by having a strong mother figure.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                As I said to Oscar, I’m all for tolerance. To your question, depending on the kid, I actually think that could be pretty damaging and not an appropriate thing to say. At scale it may produce some false positives. It’s not like the approach has been studied in any real, long term way so no one knows what the the larger impact would be.

                My gut says that it would not change anything for the vast majority of children. Schools have taught dumb things before without totally destroying society (many of us I’m sure remember DARE). Still I hope that isn’t the argument we’re going to hang our hats on.Report

              • InMD in reply to InMD says:

                Just to give a real life example, one of my in-laws’ has a daughter going through the awkward tween phase. She also takes after her father who was a legitimately good athlete (made it to the AA before his career was derailed by injuries) and is quite sporty and athletic. She came to a function a few weeks ago in sweats and looking like she had been at practice for whatever sport shes doing right now. Another in law, in a very out of character moment commented to my wife (out of ear shot thank God) that the young lady in question is no longer the pretty little girl she once was.

                Now I have never experienced what young women are going through at that age. And for all I know she is totally confident and not self conscious at all. But it also wouldn’t be unusual if she was. If that’s the case I know enough to understand that some well meaning teacher or school admin suggesting that maybe she is actually a boy in some way could be confusing and unhelpful and quite possibly really offensive and out of line. Just because I also doubt it would ruin her life forever if that happened doesn’t mean it’s an approach that should he institutionalized.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                “f the end result is school personnel suggesting that girls who would rather play football might really in some way be boys or that a boy who prefers reading might really have the gender identity of a girl, I’d say that’s pretty reactionary and wrongheaded. If that leads to encouragement of medicalization, particularly at a young age, I’d say it’s downright evil.”

                Um… what? Where is this “if” even coming from? Is anyone anywhere suggesting any of this with any amount of seriousness?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Kazzy says:

                That’s the conservative conspiracy theory, Kazzy, that random people are suggesting to kids that they should be some other gender, and this somehow moves forward and actually happens.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                In the conversation it has been argued that gender is a spectrum and gender is a non-biological social category. There is also a strong implication that in addition to those attributes it is an immutable characteristic we can identify in children, with certainty, at the individual level (admittedly we haven’t gotten into that as thoroughly).

                I am just following the line of thinking where it would seem to naturally lead, as applied by bureaucracies known for operating with the subtlety and precision of a sledgehammer.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                “I am just following the line of thinking where it would seem to naturally lead, as applied by bureaucracies known for operating with the subtlety and precision of a sledgehammer.”

                Well then… put simply… you’re wrong.

                I’ve worked in some of the crunchiest/wokest/most progressive environments and I’ve never seen someone get within a country mile of suggesting a child was transgender because of their hobbies and interests.

                Never ever ever ever ever.

                Doesn’t make it impossible some dunderhead somewhere would suggest that but it sure as heck means that what “seems” “natural” to you is wrong and misguided.

                The question is… will you adjust your perspective? Or remain convinced of your own wrongness?Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                I’d ask you to re-read the full exchange starting with me and Oscar before jumping so hard to conclusions. I’m just asking for a coherent limiting principle so I can understand where the philosophy goes from a policy perspective. ‘Trust me that will never happen’ doesn’t convince me.

                Either that or do what Chip did, which was to own the position, and say the natural conclusion either isn’t harmful or the good outweighs the bad. I may not agree with him but I respect it and it was intellectually honest.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                What natural conclusion? That schools are or will tell kids they’re transgender because they have hobbies and interests that are outside traditional gender norms?

                If you really feel that is a natural conclusion to anything, you are either working off of REALLY bad information or are REALLY bad at drawing conclusions.Report

              • Chris in reply to Kazzy says:

                Actual people: “Individuals should be able to decide their gender.”

                InMD:”Oh, so you’re saying the schools or the government should be able to decide people’s gender?!”Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                More like I could see a bunch of well intentioned but silly and potentially inappropriate lessons given to young children resulting in unfounded conclusions about said children. Then I could see those unfounded conclusions used in stupid ways and to make stupid determinations, potentially without parental involvement.

                While I know good intentions always guarantee good outcomes sometimes the taxpayer requests an audit, just to be sure.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                You can see that, but that’s simply not the way it works, so I’m not sure why your concerns, which have little to do with reality, should influence conversations. It’s particularly odd that you have these concerns after this whole conversation began with you (and Pinky) asserting that you were the science-based folks on this.

                Each time these conversations occur, it becomes increasingly clear that y’all are just going out of your way to rationalize your own prejudices, and honestly, it’s just gross. I make jokes about it, but it’s disgusting.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                And every time you call me a bigot or prejudiced or whatever I envision that redheaded kid from Children of the Corn yelling ‘Outlander!’ It lands the same way as some republican calling me a communist for thinking we can come up with a universal healthcare system, i.e. just another word for outgroup. No one cares about your personal peeves or your apparently weak stomach for a robust debate.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                I’m sad that you think what you’re doing here is robust debate. You can’t even figure out what your opponents mean.

                And yeah, you’re a bigot. I’m not calling you that because you’re not in my in-group, though you obviously aren’t, but because you’re openly, unapologetically a bigot. You’re not at all trying to hide it, and openly state it regularly. You just think that your being an anti-trans bigot is not only good, but the only rational and scientific way to be, and therefore can’t be called “bigotry.” Which is how I’ve heard people justify just about every type of bigotry I’ve ever seen: it’s not bigotry, it’s perfectly rational, scientific even. Whatever you need to tell yourself, man. I’ll keep calling it like I see it, and you can keep not caring. It’s not like I expect to convince you, or you expect to convince me, because obviously, we’re not actually participating in anything resembling “robust debate.” Or I mean, obvious to anyone who’s actually participated in actual robust debate (which, to be fair, used to happen occasionally around these parts, a decade or so ago).Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chris says:

                Please don’t lump me and InMD together on this. I respect the guy and we have some overlap on this issue, but we approach things very differently. In particular, this subthread started with my response to Zane about science and the parties, and as far as I know InMD doesn’t vote like I do. It’s simply inaccurate to lump us together the way you did.

                As I said, though, I respect him, and he doesn’t seem petulant and obnoxious, which are traits that make conversation difficult.Report

              • Chris in reply to Pinky says:

                I lump you together only as transphobes. Regardless of your disagreements, at least you two have that in common.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                No, I just take the ideas being bandied around seriously. What I’m not always sure of is whether the people advocating for them do.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                I couldn’t follow this entire long and winding threads… can you point me towards a comment here that shows these ideas being advocated for?Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                Oscar won the thread below but briefly, here are the ideas I find tough to square into a coherent and appropriate policy when combined:

                -we don’t know a gender at birth but there inherently is one, or one develops, which we presumably can at some point identify

                -gender is a spectrum

                -interventions may be required to address gender identity disorders in children

                -gender is not an observable biological trait

                -gender is a social category

                The first 3 primarily come from the initial exchanges with Oscar, the second 2 from exchanges with Chris who joined the conversation. If either feel I’ve misconstrued them it isn’t intended, and I am doing my best at being accurate and charitable.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

                we don’t know a gender at birth but there inherently is one, or one develops, which we presumably can at some point identify

                No. Gender is a social construct.

                interventions may be required to address gender identity disorders in children

                The hell does that mean? An ‘intervention’ is something imposed on a situation.

                Children do actually have opinions about themselves, you know.

                The only ‘intervention’ required might be in how other people relate to that child, if they continue doing in a manner that the child has indicated they don’t want.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                “The only ‘intervention’ required might be in how other people relate to that child, if they continue doing in a manner that the child has indicated they don’t want.”

                Yes.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

                Its easy to square into coherent policy and law:

                Leave parent and doctors and psychologists alone to work through this on an individual basis with each kid to standards of care provided by their licensing and professional organizations. So don’t be Texas.

                Support educational settings where kids can freely express themselves without reservation about bullying or bigotry. Talk about differing family types, about how different people arrive at the healthy parts of who they are. So don’t be Florida.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                And what follows from that is schools deciding on behalf of kids their gender identity based on hobbies?

                Um… how?Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                The core issue we were debating is how a school establishes status. My question was if it’s a social category and inherent trait, on a spectrum, without a biological component we can identify, and where there’s going to be an official intervention, what is to stop reliance on gender stereotypes for a condition that, based on the aforementioned attributes, would seem to defy reliable diagnosis.

                Oscar’s answer was parents and qualified clinicians have to greenlight it, not the schools acting independently (if I read him right their role is merely to enforce respect and tolerance), and that was good enough for me.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                That shows about as misguided an understanding of how schools work as I’ve seen in any even semi-serious conversation.

                There are lots of traits that fit those criteria (e.g., religion, race, ethnicity, heck, even names) and which schools do not determine on behalf of children.

                I mean, do you think schools look at kids who state they are Jewish and who eat bacon cheeseburgers while their heads are uncovered and their sideburns are trimmed neat and say, “No, you’re not REALLY Jewish so yes you do have to complete your homework on Yom Kippur?” Like, do you think that is an actual thing that actually happens? Not some naive individual dunce but a school policy that takes such a stance?

                And if you understand the facts — that no school has such a policy — why would you think they’d enact such a policy with regards to gender identity? Like, what situation can you point to where schools have enacted policies that you can say are instructive for how they might handle gender identity?Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                As we discussed in previous posts on this, the fact that I live in a state where the DOE and some counties have issued guidance seeming to allow for secret counseling on gender issues by school personnel, which is now being litigated. As best as I can tell they’ve never done that in modern times on those other things you mentioned and I’m confident it would be treated as self-evidently illegal if they did.

                That and the regular news stories which may or may not be nutpicking, but the guidance for me is the smoking gun that the concern has some merit.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                The word “seeming” is doing a heck of a lot of heavy lifting there. Do you have any sources on this supposedly issued guidance? If the matter is being litigated, what court documents exist regarding it?

                Even still, do you see how far we’ve gone from “natural conclusion?”

                You’re alleging that certain districts may have issued guidance that school personnel — which might include trained psychologists and not teachers — that allows for private counseling sessions with students? And that means that, obviously, we’re just a hop-skip-and-a-jump away from teachers telling kids what their gender identity is based on their hobbies?

                Have YOU actually thought about what YOU are saying?

                Please, link me an article at least that discusses the local DOE/districts that have supposedly issued this guidance. If you shared it before, I must have missed it. And I think it reasonable to ask for some sourcing here.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                https://foxbaltimore.com/news/local/state-education-framework-pushes-gender-identity-on-kindergarteners

                Is this what you’re talking about? Because this isn’t anything close to what you’re claiming it is.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Now, if you want, we can actually go through the guidance (I have it open and have begun to read through it) but if you’re just going to circle back to, “Well, obviously, what folks REALLY want is for teachers to be able to tell kids what gender they are?” then I won’t waste my breath.

                Because, again, there is nothing that makes your claim above any sort of natural conclusion draw from anything you have offered. So, either you are woefully misunderstanding what these things say, in which case I’d be happy to help you make sense of them OR you’re privy to some information you’ve chosen not to share, in which case you really ought to share it OR you have simply convinced yourself of what people you disagree with REALLY want and nothing will change your mind, in which case, well, good on ya for that.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                For goodness sakes dude. The ‘natural conclusion’ at issue was based on the definitions/determination of trans identity being discussed in this thread. Here. At OT. On this post. With other commenters. Which I explained to you. Not in the state guidance.

                You then said I’m completely misguided on how schools work. I said that’s not true and pointed to the secrecy or at least apparent potential for secrecy which is being litigated. If it’s innocuous it doesn’t need to be secret (and hey, maybe it is and these people in the DOE are just idiots, wouldn’t be the first time) but I am skeptical of any government authority that wants secrecy with respect to people’s children.

                Re: the guidance, I don’t care what your interpretation of it is. What matters is how state and county officials interpret it, not you, and what their intent is, which will hopefully come out in court.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

                Dude, you are embarrassing yourself. You’ve succumbed to stupid talking points devoid of fact or logic. Later.Report

              • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

                I said ‘seeming’ because it’s still being litigated. I’ve provided links before at OT and I’m not digging them up again.

                You’re the one coming in hot on an exchange you couldn’t follow and that I politely laid out when requested.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

                My question was if it’s a social category and inherent trait, on a spectrum, without a biological component we can identify, and where there’s going to be an official intervention, what is to stop reliance on gender stereotypes for a condition that, based on the aforementioned attributes, would seem to defy reliable diagnosis.

                What the hell do you think needs to be ‘diagnosed’?

                Your whole premise is literally gibberish. Schools do not diagnose anyone.

                Here is what actually happens:

                Apparently male student goes to school: I am actually a girl, I would prefer to use she/her and this new name from now on.

                School goes: Okay. We will make sure teachers and other students respect that.

                Student says: Um, and…can we keep it from my parents, because they’re kinda homophobic and transphobic. And…can you use my old pronouns and name when they’re here?

                School goes: Okay.

                That’s it. The school is not, at any point, telling a student who they are. They do not have therapists who tell students that, they do not even have ‘qualified clinicians’ to do that, because that is not, in fact, even vaguely the job of a school.

                Neither is tattling on students for personal behavior that is not a violation of school rules and isn’t illegal, _especially_ not behavior that, statistically, has a moderate chance of parental abuse as a result.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                …in fact, you don’t seem to have a very good understanding of how therapy works _at all_.

                Not that schools generally do therapy to start with, but _therapists_ don’t do this either, they don’t try to _tell_ people who they are or what they should be.

                Or, rather, they do, there’s a term for that, it’s called conversion therapy, and it’s not any acceptable version of ‘therapy’.

                And, again, schools providing any sort of therapy is actually extremely rare outside of post-traumatic counseling, but if they are, it is actual therapy, which is ‘Sit down and explain out things that are causing you problems, and I will listen’.

                Sometimes those things causing problems are actual mental disorders, things that the patient wants to fix, and the therapists can suggest possible treatments. These disorders can range from OCD to gender dysphoria, and a therapist can diagnose a patient and say ‘And here are some options to help with that’.

                Keywords there being that the patient wants to fix, not the therapist. The patient identifies an issue they are having, the patient indicates they wish to fix the issue, and the patient is presented with some of the options they might have to do that. Therapy is operated by patients, not therapists.

                And yes, all _this_ is ‘secret’, not just from parents but from the school, because it is someone expressing who they are and getting confidential medical advice. Because, again, it is literally just advice.

                And, again, I find it extremely doubtful that any schools are doing therapy to this level. 99% of school therapy is ‘A student died, and we’ll get someone here on Mondays for a month for kids to talk to if they need to’.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy says:

                “We don’t want teachers playing pop psychologists.

                Now this kindergarten boy who wants to play with dolls- we just need to set him straight on what his gender is because he obviously doesn’t know.”Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                What about just not making a big deal out of it or insisting on deducing some kind of permanent existential identity trait out of every silly little thing? That’s my preferred landing spot anyway.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                I would agree with letting young people work out their own identities with a minimum of steering.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                That’s also playing pop-psychologist.

                This kind of crap doesn’t only go one way.Report

              • Chris in reply to Kazzy says:

                Straw-manning. It makes being a bigot seem less irrational, to the bigot. “Oh look, these people believe ridiculous things, like just because a girl wants to play football, she must actually be a boy. Hahaha… They are silly and I am not a transphobe at all, just a rational person looking out for the innocent children of this country!”Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

                I would say that a limiting principle is that teachers need to foster acceptance and tolerance, and that’s it. Basically a rule of “You do you, and as long as it’s not hurting anyone else, we’ll roll with that.” Anything beyond that would be in the form of a note to the school / district psychologist and / or parents or guardians.

                Teachers who want to play at being psychologists should be dealt with by the school for stepping outside their professional responsibilities.

                Unless & until we see schools being unable or unwilling to deal with teachers stepping outside their professional bailiwick, there is no need for law-making bodies to get involved.Report

              • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                As long as it always includes parents/guardians you have my vote.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

                As long as it always includes parents/guardians you have my vote.

                So, forcible outing then?

                Is that just for trans students or you want to include gay students in there, too?

                Hey, are you aware that about 40% of homeless youth are queer? Why do you think that is, when they account for somewhere around 5% of the population?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                Thing is, involving parents HAS to be the default move, unless there is a good reason not to.

                The trick is figuring out what the criteria are for not involving parents, and then adhering to those.

                One thing we could do is for districts to have a lawyer on call that can act as a Guardian Ad Litem for kids if there is a concern things might go sideways? Or is that overkill and a social worker would be better? Not sure, myself.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                The trick is figuring out what the criteria are for not involving parents, and then adhering to those.

                The kid not _wanting_ the parents to know their sexual orientation or gender identity is, itself, a _giant_ clue that the parents will not be accepting of it.

                One thing we could do is for districts to have a lawyer on call that can act as a Guardian Ad Litem for kids if there is a concern things might go sideways? Or is that overkill and a social worker would be better? Not sure, myself.

                …and I am honestly baffled as to WTF people here think schools are going to be doing that _needs_ parental consent? It’s a goddamn name and some pronouns and what restroom they use.

                My parents have _never_ had to consent as to what restroom I have used in the entire history of my education…in fact, they have never even been _informed_ of it. They’ve never seen a picture, they have no idea of its location, they know literally nothing about it. For all they know, we climbed to the top of a mountain and urinated off the top.

                Likewise, they don’t know what people in the school called me. I guess they probably could have _guessed_ based on how my friends and teachers refered to me, but that’s just a guess, and I could have had them lie. They certainly never signed any sort of paper that listed the names and nicknames that I could be refered to.

                There is no universe where any of this requires any sort of parental consent, at least, there’s no universe where it required any sort of parental consent when _cis_ kids were involved.

                Which makes it pretty clear the entire premise to forcibly out queer kids, or force them into the closet.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                Yeah, I think the kid asking for the parents to be kept in the dark is a giant red flag that the school should be paying attention to. But it shouldn’t be the only red flag.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                “Teachers who want to play at being psychologists should be dealt with by the school for stepping outside their professional responsibilities.

                Unless & until we see schools being unable or unwilling to deal with teachers stepping outside their professional bailiwick, there is no need for law-making bodies to get involved.”

                And this needs to go both ways. I had a Head of School one time tell a student — who had come out to classmates — that he had to stop saying that because he wasn’t really gay and if he was gay, he’d call his mom right then and there and tell her.

                So, yea, teachers SHOULD stay in their lane. But that should apply to ALL teachers.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                All faculty and staff, yes.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Teachers who want to play at being psychologists should be dealt with by the school for stepping outside their professional responsibilities.

                No. No. No. I mean, yes, that’s true, but the idea that this psychological pressure would be in the _trans_ direction is utterly absurd.

                There are imaginary hypothetical extremely woke teachers suggesting a student might be trans, meanwhile there are tens of thousands of actual literal really-existing teachers and other authority figures dismissing what students actually tell them about themselves.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                Sauce for the goose, etc.

                Having some teacher playing at pop-psych should not be allowed, regardless. If it’s an issue, it goes to the school psych, who can talk to the student, and suss out if parents should be involved or not.

                The person with the M.D. should be the one making those kinds of calls, not the teachers, or admins with PhDs.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                “The person with the M.D. should be the one making those kinds of calls, not the teachers, or admins with PhDs.”

                And in the vast vast majority of cases that is how it goes for damn near anything. As you said above, teachers can’t and won’t make ADHD diagnoses and even suggesting as such is likely going to get a teacher reprimanded.

                I know I’m preaching to the choir with you directly Oscar but I just feel like this point needs to be emphasized.

                No, teachers do not make diagnoses of any kind and most schools — including all public schools — have processes in place to make referrals. These policies likely haven’t been adapted or created specifically for issues regarding gender identity, but there is no reason to think schools are going to totally abandon the way they do things and permit/require teachers to be driving the bus in these conversations.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                The person with the M.D. should be the one making those kinds of calls, not the teachers, or admins with PhDs.

                What the hell is this bullshit, Oscar?

                Now we’ve gone somehow from ‘suggesting’ someone is trans, which is something that teacher could, hypothetically, do, to apparently ‘making calls’.

                What sort of ‘calls’ do you think teachers make? Because as Kazzy pointed, teachers do not diagnose people. The only calls they can make is how the schools and other students interact with them.

                So what you appear to think is that school might diagnose (somehow) a student with gender dyphoria and then treat them as trans _against their wishes_, which is completely ludicrous…

                …and, I feel I must point out is _exactly_ what trans advocates want to be barred, anyway. Like, even if this hypothetically was happening, the demand ‘Treat all student’s stated gender identity with respect and honor it’ would be in opposition to this!

                No one actually wants students ‘diagnosed’ with gender dysphoria, in fact, trans people rather dislike that entire thing, especially as people can be trans _without_ that. No one on _this_ side is running around telling students what gender they are because they ‘have been diagnosed with gender dyphoria’, unlike the other side, which _is_ demanding the right to run around doing that based off other things.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                Having fun with that strawman of me you are arguing with?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Having fun with just _inventing_ things that could hypothetical be happening that we need to worry about?

                But feel free to explain exactly what ‘calls’ you think schools should be making, or not, about a student’s gender identity. Because you have utterly failed to do so.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                I have neither the time nor inclination to defend myself to you. If you have your head so deeply buried in your own hyper-progressive a$$ that you can’t be bothered to practice reading comprehension, or even some basic charitable reading, especially for someone who largely FVCKING AGREES WITH YOU on this topic, then I would suggest you take yourself off to a machine shop and see if someone can get someone to use hydraulic equipment to pull your head free.

                For the love of… you can be so fvcking exhausting to talk to.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                especially for someone who largely FVCKING AGREES WITH YOU on this topic,

                Yes, you ‘largely’ agree with me, except you’ve decided to be sure to include some nonsense conspiracy theory in there about hypothetical teachers transing kids without telling parents, and how we need to make sure that doesn’t happen, a thing that is completely made up, and is indeed so made up you can’t even explain what you mean by it.

                “Look, I _agree_ we shouldn’t discriminate against Jewish people, I just _also_ think we need to make sure, in this process, that Jewish people don’t start secretly running the world. And I’m not saying they do! But they could, and we do need to make sure that doesn’t happen!”

                Maybe, instead, we don’t entertain conspiracy theories? Like, at all? We don’t consider that ‘maybe’ a thing is happening that cannot happen, does not happen, and will not happen.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                You are so absorbed in your own righteousness that you can’t do anything except come out swinging, can you?

                It’s not hard to POLITELY ask someone to clarify a point or comment made during a discussion. Damn near everyone else here seems capable of doing so.

                Learn some manners and humility, instead of just assuming you know what I mean by something and attack me based upon that errant assumption.

                Until you come down off that pedestal of “I’m never really wrong about anything I opine about” you’ve built yourself to sit upon, I’m done with you.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                It’s not hard to POLITELY ask someone to clarify a point or comment made during a discussion.

                I know _exactly_ what you mean. You mean that ‘Some teachers and school administrators might be deciding that non-trans students are trans, and we need to guard against that, in addition to protecting actual trans students’.

                Tell me if I’m wrong.

                The problem is _you_ don’t think that’s a problematic statement to make.

                Whereas I, in fact, know the actual origin of that, the trans groomer teacher conspiracy theories, because it has no actual basis in any sort of fact whatsoever. As both Kazzy and I both explained, that is literally not how school work, and it isn’t really how any sort of treatment works either.

                It’s complete nonsense, one that is, again, a conspiracy theory being pushed by the idea that ‘woke schools’ are deliberately ‘transing students’…the idea they might be doing it ‘accidentally’ out of ‘wokeness’ is just the slightly softer version of that.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC says:

                You are wrong. Not even in the ballpark of my intent.

                When you accept that you are wrong, and your ego has sufficiently recovered from that body blow, perhaps you will be able to imagine a reality that describes my intent.Report

              • Chris in reply to Pinky says:

                Who do you think does not know that male is male and female is female?

                Also, who claims that mothers aren’t carrying fetuses? (Calling them children is a rhetorical move, not a scientific one.)Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

                Okay. So. The converation has moved past this point, but I really feel this needs to be said, because _both_ sides are getting it wrong: Science does not, in any manner, define words.

                To clarify: Science, obviously, being precise, often wants to use words in a very strict way, so does often provide defintions of words, and there are a lot of words that have a standard ‘scientific definition’, but those definitions are not _science_, you do not apply the scientific method and get the meaning of words as output. All words are just arbitartly chosen sequences of letters and sounds that have arbitary meanings.

                Ergo, it is impossible for science to say that ‘A male is a male, a female is a female, an infant still in the womb is an infant.’…I guess we should probably assume the first two are true based on tauntoloic logic, ‘A is A’, but what ‘male’ and ‘female’ mean could be anything.

                It is _also_ impossible for science to say that trans women are women. Science doesn’t weigh in on that, in either direction. Those are semantic questions and outside the scope of science.

                Please note I’m not saying that words have _no_ meaning, I am saying that the meaning of words is a _social construct_ and not a scientific conclusion. Or, to quote Thor: All words are made up. And science, by definition, is the opposite of made up.

                Now, science does say that the expression of sexual characteristics at a biological level is a good deal more complicated than a simple binary. And the psychological sciences say that gender identification is as real a thing as anything in the human mind can be. At any point that science can weigh in, it tends to agree with what trans people say…mostly because the concepts actually go the other way, all this stuff trans people keep saying was very informed by science, because trans people spent _decades_ using science to fight for themselves.

                Indeed, it’s somewhat hard, using scientific observations, to create strict categories of ‘male’ and ‘female’ that a) group people how anyone wants to group them, and b) are based in well-defined measurable traits.

                Trnas supporters get around this by saying ‘People are whatever they say they are’, which solves the problem _without_ trying to measure any traits.

                Trans opponants, meanwhile, flop around like a fish out of water and try to talk about genitalia (Which change) or chromosomes (Which no one measures, and there are indications that moderate amounts of the population have those ‘wrong’ and don’t even know it.) or hormones or something.

                This results in confusing claims that ‘science’ supports trans people, which…no, that doesn’t, not really. (The psychological stuff, yes, the definitional stuff, no.) All this proves is that some people have incredibly simplisitic notions of how biological sex works that are manifestly untrue. It can’t say what people _really_ belong in what group of ‘male’ or ‘female’, because those groups are just words we invented and they have no objective meaning.

                And, of course, groups do not have to be based on measurable traits. The grouping of ‘tree’ do not have any sort of measurable traits or scientific grouping, yet we still use that term with no problem.

                This is true with almost all groupings of humans…what’s the objective definition of ‘a Floridian’?

                Buuuuut….the inability to come up with well-define boundaries does, however, sorta screw up _laws_ that trans opponants are trying to pass. Like, if you want to outlaw ‘Group X doing a thing’, you have to be able to explain who, exactly, is _in_ group X, to a clear enough level the law can apply a test of that. You can’t just say ‘Floridians can only use Floridian restrooms’.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to DavidTC says:

                There is assimilation and accommodation. These are parts of the learning process. Let’s use a very simple example:

                A toddler has a cat. It knows that it is called cat. The cat has four legs, a tail, and is furry. Cats have four legs, a tail, and are furry. The toddler sees a squirrel. “CAT!” Sure… the squirrel has four legs, a tail, and is furry. Things that have four legs, a tail, and are furry are cats. The child has ASSIMILATED the squirrel into its understanding of cats.
                Then it sees a dog… “CAT!”
                Then it sees a fox… “Cat.”
                Then it sees a bunny… “Cat?”
                The child squeezes more and more things into the category of cats, ignoring the traits that differentiate them. But, eventually, the category of “cat” becomes sort of meaningless because clearly all these animals are not the same animal. So, they accommodate and create new categories. But to do so, they have to enter a place of disequilibrium… where they go from confidently declaring “CAT!” to tentatively saying, “Cat?” They go from a place of confidently understanding the world to doubting what they see in front of them. THE WORLD DOESN’T MAKE SENSE! HOW CAN THESE ALL BE CATS?!?! Well… they aren’t. Because there is more to being a cat than four legs, a tail, and fur and there are more than just cats in the world.

                Many folks are so uncomfortable with that period of disequilibrium that they simply refuse to traverse it and just keep calling squirrels cats.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Kazzy says:

                This is why I keep pointing out that sex is a social construct.

                Not gender, _sex_.

                Not any actual physical traits. People obviously have measurable physical traits.

                But the fact we have a) lumped multiple things together and b) structured huge sections of society and language _around_ those grouping is social construct.

                It’s a social construct in exactly the same way race is. Yes, people literally have a skin color, and they literally have different categories of body structures and facial features that sort roughly can be grouped, in much the same way that people have different genitalia and body shapes and hormones and chromosomes that sorta roughly can be grouped.

                But doing that, making those groups, and structuring anything around those groups as if they are ‘real’ in any manner is a social construct.

                We could have just as easily built an entire thing out of eye color, or which finger was longest. But we didn’t. Those are all real observations we can make about people, but any importance we ascribe to any particular grouping is a social construct.

                (This is why transphobes try desperately to redefine those words to mean reproductive roles, which is completely ahistoric and completely absurd because it removes huge chunks of people.)Report

  13. LeeEsq says:

    As a resident of the Bay Area, I’d like to point out that the residents of San Francisco voted out the School Board or at least the members deemed most ridiculous in a recall election. Chessa Boudin, San Francisco’s DA, also looks like he is voting out. There are performative politics in Democratic cities but there are also performative politics in Republican areas. Governor DeSantis of Florida is waging a very performative and actually deadly version of performative politics with Disney over trans-rights.

    San Francisco makes a tempting target for Republicans because the activist history lets the left leaning version of the rightist crank get elected in low interest elections at times and do stupid things. The left cranks on the SF School Board pissed off the Asian-American plurality in San Francisco by a combination of passive-aggressive racism against them and blindness to their needs and got voted out. Right cranks remain in power for much longer because their electorate are also cranks.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

      I think that San Francisco makes a tempting target because there is absolutely no ability to blame anything that went wrong on the Republicans ruining everything and the hidden Reactionaries pulling strings on the moderates who manage to get elected.

      If San Francisco is not the most liberal city in the country, it is the second-most liberal city in the country and has been for decades and decades.

      Pure, unfettered Democratic rule.

      Mind your step.Report

  14. Saul Degraw says:

    Chessa Boudin was elected on the thinnest of margins in a ranked choice election and he is likely to be recalled in June. The school board members were recalled easily as well. All of this should be evidence of Democrats being able to be sensible even in the most blue of cities.Report

  15. Saul Degraw says:

    On the one hand, San Francisco Democrats did somethings.

    On the other hand, an 18 year old white man murdered 10 people and planned on killing a lot more because he was animated by Great Replacement Theory. Great Replacement Theory has been mentioned in all but name (and maybe even by name) on Tucker Carlson’s empire of hate and by J.D. Vance.

    Oh well, I guess those silly liberals are too blame.Report

  16. Greg In Ak says:

    Why i care about school names in SF is good question. Or the answer is i don’t care and not sure why anybody outside of SF does.

    Is there performance in politics? Well hell yeah and i would be glaringly obvious to point out trump etc. Aside from that there is a bit of cherry picking here. SF school names and Aunt Jemima was footnoted. Obvious point about AJ is that had nothing to do with the D’s or legislation but with a company changing their branding strategy based on extensive market research.

    It’s an easy conservative trope to pick out the silliest things on the vaguely defined left and blame them on D’s and every liberal. D’s for all there many failings as a party, and there are plenty, have actual legislation out there. Some of it isn’t good or is debatable. But it’s there. Marketing choices by mega corps is chum for the waters. Want to get away from performance then there are plenty of issues to talk about. Care about marketing, welp then why should anyone care?

    At least the SF talk is about an actual place with pols. Boudin has actual polices to talk about. Again why care about school names.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      “The demagogic and simple-minded of all ideological stripes fall back on this argument because, frankly, it works. Children are vulnerable and lovable. Ingrained in our DNA is an instinct which calls us to protect and nurture them so that our species, our culture, our memory lives on. It’s much easier to prey on the public’s parental sentiments by claiming that your issue du jour will protect some hypothetical babe in the woods than it is to make grown-up arguments on said policy’s merits. Because that requires the audience to consider the various risks and rewards, costs and benefits, of a given proposal. And thinking is hard. We are not wired nearly so strictly for it.”

      https://www.thebulwark.com/stefanik-wont-somebody-please-think-of-the-pedos-children/

      Not completely related to Kristine’s point here but it rhymes. This is largely an appeal to rural reactionary ID and not much more.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        Yes, people are protective of children. Are you arguing that they shouldn’t be? That either side, or any position, on education should be indifferent to children? Or is this just another invocation of “it’s ok if you’re a Democrat”, that we can be free to assume that a Republican policy is bad and a Democratic policy is good without looking at it, whether or not it has anything to do with education or children?Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        The accusations of pedophilia and attacks on transpeople come out of a hysterical freakout over feminism and gender roles, which are part of that interconnected universe of race and ethnic tribalism. which looks at the cultural diversity of the great cities of the world and recoils in horror.

        When Republicans look at San Francisco or New York, it isn’t the crime or poverty or dysfunction that disturbs them; They have all those things in abundance in the rural red state areas, the places where Trump signs sprout alongside trash-strewn trailer parks and meth addicts wear a 3 Percenter tee shirt to their recovery meetings.

        No what freaks them out is the fact that the urban poor are nonwhite, that the drug addicts don’t attend megachurches in between falling off the wagon, that the local business elites are as likely to be a black lesbian as a white male.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Your first paragraph here is standard Chip, but after that you turned really hateful. You’re hanging out with the wrong kind of people, philosophically.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            It was just an elegy to hillbillies. I thought Republicans dig that sh!t.

            But maybe you’re right.

            Maybe we should stop with all the poverty porn where people smugly talk about the human excrement on San Francisco streets, or toothless meth addicts in rural Ohio, and stop voting for people whose only solution to human misery is to deliver prim lectures on bootstraps, or fantasies of gating ourselves off from the ragged mobs of untouchables and calling in the troops when they get out of control.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Team Blue has wonderful, heart stirring rhetoric on how only Team Blue has solutions.

              I like living where I don’t need to deal with poverty porn. That seems to always put me in GOP run areas.

              The rhetoric of “solutions” from Team Blue and “lack of solutions” from Team Red doesn’t seem to match the reality.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                What has Team Red done to successfully deal with poverty that Team Blue hasn’t?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                It might be a “you get what you pay for” thing.

                Or it might be that an efficiently run city does less to create problems.

                Or it might be that smaller cities can’t get concentrated poverty creating it’s own problems.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                There is nary a municipality in this great land that doesn’t have some sort of pocket of poverty. Scale is the only difference.Report

              • Brandon Berg in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                Scale doesn’t seem to matter all that much. Gary, Indiana (population 70,000) has 15 times the homicide rate of New York City.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                Heh. Gary has pockets of affluence.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                Scale is the only difference.

                I can easily believe that scale makes some things harder.

                At the same time, a lot of these very large cities have obviously dysfunctional arms of government. Chicago’s police (etc), New York’s police/roads (etc), and so on.

                Either those institutions play no role in poverty (which is something BLM would disagree with) or Team Blue has something to answer for on this subject.

                My impression is culture does a lot of heavy lifting in terms of avoiding/fighting poverty. Team Blue is the party which runs big cities and thus enables poverty at some level.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                So what explains the poverty in rural areas run by Republicans?
                West Virginia, Mississippi, rural Ohio, all those dying little towns across Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                That white people have started acting like n****s?Report

              • For the Great Plains and prairies? Large corporate capture of the food chain, insufficient population density to support a service-based or large-scale manufacturing economy, and eventually the death spiral of professional occupations. I’ve been watching it for decades.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Yes, all very true and one wonders why decades of bootstraps and the miracle of free markets and moral righteousness hasn’t had a better track record.

                Maybe they should try cutting taxes.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                one wonders why decades of bootstraps and the miracle of free markets and moral righteousness hasn’t had a better track record.

                You’re missing the forest for the trees.

                If we look internationally to pull in more data, “the miracle of free markets” is a thing.

                If you’re going to insist that success means “no one is in poverty” then there is no chance for success.

                To largely repeat, a ton of poverty is culture. The issue then becomes what to do about it, and despite all the magic talk from Team Blue, they don’t know what they’re doing. Team Red’s answer of “fix yourself” is largely correct.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Well, my responses are being held because of links, but let me ask this simple question: Dark, do you think the poverty level is higher in New York City or Appalachia?

                Do you think it’s higher in the parts of Appalachia in red states, or the parts of Appalachia in the more purple states?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                How could the culture of rural white people in Ohio be improved to have them make better choices?Report

              • …why decades of bootstraps and the miracle of free markets and moral righteousness hasn’t had a better track record.

                Over the last 25 years, I have slowly but steadily come to the same opinion as the Poppers on the rural Great Plains (map here): with quite small exceptions, the greatest failed policy experiment in US history. Half a million square miles and there is — with those small transient exceptions — no reason for a contemporary society to put anything that requires a real population there for the long term. We’re just watching the end game play out.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Cities are just the places where poor people live. I would argue that municipal government is hardly the first place one should look for solutions to poverty. It’s a national problem that can only be solved, inasmuch as it’s solvable, by government with the resources of a nation behind it.

                Each party has had its whack at the problem with what it sees as the best solution. Maybe it’s entrenched and not going away, but I’m not of the mind that we should give up on any Americans.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                I’m not of the mind that we should give up on any Americans.

                Shielding people from their own bad choices is a problem from multiple view points.

                It would help these discussions a lot if we would measure poverty and it’s effects by “after gov transfers” and not “before”.

                My expectation is we have to set the goal posts pretty high to say we’re not helping people.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                My expectation is we have to set the goal posts pretty high to say we’re not helping people.

                I don’t think anyone, least of all me, is saying that. At what point, though, do we say enough is enough?

                It would help these discussions a lot if we would measure poverty and it’s effects by “after gov transfers” and not “before”.

                Aren’t we already seeing that?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                It’s a bit of a mixed bag as near as I can tell, and some of the information I’m finding online is contradictory. Poverty guidelines, for example, don’t include many federal programs, because they’re used to calculate eligibility for those programs. Poverty thresholds are different than poverty guidelines. There are also occasional changes in how poverty is measured which may be sound but can affect time series analysis.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Here’s a question, Dark: Do you have any evidence that rural areas have _solved_ any poverty in them, or are they only successful at _keeping it out_ because they have set up a situation where poor people literally cannot function?

                Actually, here’s a better question: Do you have any evidence they that don’t have such poverty, or is it just that rural areas have more square feet so it’s out of sight?

                Do you know what the poverty rate of Appalachia is? 19.7%, across the rural areas of _very red_ states. All areas of Appalachia have incredibly high poverty rates, all of them not only higher than the state they’re in, but usually higher than any nearby major cities.

                Do you know what it is in NYC? 19.6%. LA? 20.4%. Atlanta? 20.2%

                The poverty rate in the part of Appalachia in Kentucky is a staggering 25.4%.

                Do you know why we _don’t_ see homeless people on the streets in Appalachian Kentucky? Because, uh, there are woods for them to live in, unlike major cities, which notably has very few heavily wooded areas where the homeless can erect a tent and stay hidden.

                And perhaps more to the point: Major cities actually _care_ about the homeless, both in the positive sense of trying to help them, and the negative sense of harassing them and trying to get them out of sight. It’s an actual political issue.

                Whereas Kentucky _doesn’t_ care. At all.

                In fact, here’s a fun map: https://www.arc.gov/map/poverty-rates-in-appalachia-2000/

                You might notice something about what state has it worse. Specifically, the redder the state, the worse it seems to be doing with poverty in Appalachia. The ones that seem to have a handle on it are the blue-ish ones, there aren’t any real ‘blue states’ there, but the bluer ones like Georgia and New York and Pennsylvania.

                You might also notice that that link is to a government commission created to solve that poverty, which exists mostly because there were a bunch of poor white people that the states were doing absolutely nothing to help. (Or, possibly, couldn’t help.)Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Oh, and before you say ‘Appalachia is a weird outlier and doesn’t count’, I urge you to go check what the poverty levels are on Native American reservations, when is what happens when there are a bunch of poor rural people who _aren’t_ white.

                Hint: The Federal government doesn’t step in and require rural electrification and phone services, for one. Only poor white people get those. Or plumbing.

                But let’s forget the Native American for a second, and go back to states. By almost every metric, poverty is worse in rural areas. And, to be clear, worse in red states: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/rural-poverty-well-being/

                Using this definition, there are 353 persistently poor counties in the United States (comprising 11.2 percent of all U.S. counties). The large majority (301 or 85.3 percent) of the persistent-poverty counties are nonmetro, accounting for 15.2 percent of all nonmetro counties. Persistent poverty also demonstrates a strong regional pattern, with nearly 84 percent of persistent-poverty counties in the South, comprising more than 20 percent of all counties in the region.

                What is happening is red states literally don’t make poverty a political issue or try to solve the problem. They just let entire communities decay.Report

              • Philip H in reply to DavidTC says:

                Its easier to scare poor people into voting for you – or so LBJ once intoned.Report

              • Brandon Berg in reply to DavidTC says:

                By almost every metric, poverty is worse in rural areas

                While the official poverty rate (based on family size and nominal income) is higher in rural areas, real poverty (i.e. adjusted for local cost of living) appears to be higher in metro areas than in nonmetro areas.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                While the official poverty rate (based on family size and nominal income) is higher in rural areas, real poverty (i.e. adjusted for local cost of living) appears to be higher in metro areas than in nonmetro areas.

                Yes, if you divide the country solely into a binary metro and non-metro areas, and then calculate the poverty based off that, nonmetro areas do look better. (Not that we were doing that.)

                But, I was not trying to make any sort of statement about averages, I was pointing out that there are extremely poor rural areas that are inarguably under complete conservative control and have been for a very long time, and those governments have been as incompetent at solving the problem as liberal cities. What _else_ exists doesn’t matter….Dark wasn’t making some claim about ‘The average of all urban areas run by Democrats’, and I conversely wasn’t make a claim about ‘all rural areas run by Republicans’. He was pointing at specific failure of governance, and I was pointing out that for some reason we only hear about Democratic failures to fight poverty and not the really large Republican failures to do that.

                Now, do these rural areas I pointed at have it _worse_, like it seems? Or is it an illusion? If we recalculated poverty for the Appalachian Kentucky standard of living vs. Atlanta, would more than 6% of the people in Appalachian Kentucky move above it, putting it above Atlanta? Maybe?

                Atlanta has almost exactly the national average for cost of living, where as Kentucky as a whole is about 85% of that, but we can’t really come to any conclusions based on that, because we have no idea just how far below poverty anyone is.

                …but that really doesn’t change the fact that red states are not solving what is clearly a problem. It doesn’t matter if things are slightly better there than in Atlanta, it’s still a pretty massive poverty problem in Appalachian Kentucky that has _not_ been solved by conservatives.

                (And note that’s nowhere near the only area, I just picked it because I’m familiar with it. The Mississippi Delta is just as bad. There are entire rural areas of this country living in poverty governed by conservatives who do literally nothing to even try to help the people there.)Report

              • Pinky in reply to DavidTC says:

                Kentucky has largely had Democratic governors, while Virginia and West Virginia have regularly switched.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

                Um, yes, if you look at that one office, there is a Democrat in it. One who was only elected because his father was governor, and his father only got in because of a massive Republican scandal. Him (And the Lt. Governor, elected on the same ticket) are vastly vastly outnumbered by Republicans in government.

                Sadly for the nitpickers out there, I did not said ‘state operated by Republicans’ (Although Republicans do actually operate Kentucky anyway), I said ‘red states’. Kentucky is a red state, it is an incredibly red state, it is just willing to elect _one specific_ Democratic family.

                Do you want to argue that, as governor, he has veto’d stuff that could have fixed poverty? Because he only got elected in 2019, and Republicans had near-complete control for four years under the _last_ Republican governor. (And the Republicans have a supermajority so I think they could override any veto?)

                So I don’t know what the point of bringing that up is.

                Kentucky has been operated by _conservatives_ almost entirely for quite some time. (Reminder: In the south, ‘conservative’ meant ‘Democratic’ at the local level until around 2000.) It’s probably not the most conservative state _anymore_, actually, the entire south has ‘weakened’ there in regard to parts of the midwest, but this poverty goes back _decades_, and if conservatives were able to solve poverty, massive levels of poverty that actually outweigh even the worst Democratic cities, surely they would have.

                But, again, conservatives _literally do not try_. Like, it’s not any sort of issue at all.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Do you have any evidence that rural areas have _solved_ any poverty in them, or are they only successful at _keeping it out_

                When we talk about long term poverty we’re talking about multiple issues/cultures and some vote Red. However from a policy point of view, my impression is there are two big issues. Fixing broken people and preventing the creation of more.

                IMHO Team Blue tends to focus on the former at the expense of the later. That’s a problem in the same way that worrying about current jobs and not future job creation is a problem.

                Team Red doesn’t talk about the issue very much, mostly they’re just not Team Blue. However maybe that’s enough. Culture does the heavy lifting on this issue.

                Focusing a microscope down to a personal level, I like living in areas that don’t have “poverty porn” and those areas tend to be pretty Red.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                “My neighborhood’s pretty nice and we all vote Republican” isn’t the persuasive argument you may think.

                Red areas have an abysmal record on solving social ills, not one bit better than blue.

                And oddly, no one here is bothering to actually dispute that point.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                All of that’s true. But the big take aways I get are…

                1) For all the talk of Blue caring about things and Red not caring, Blue’s record doesn’t suggest they can fix stuff.

                2) Most of the problematic areas are Blue, often totally controlled by Blue.

                The areas of dispute are…

                A) Whether Blue’s policies make things worse.

                [Note: This could be either things Blue actively wants (paying people to be poor or not get married) or even just inactively does (nimbys preventing the creation of housing thus making housing unaffordable).]

                B) Whether Red’s policies prevent/avoid things or just export them.

                All of those questions/issues could be resolved in Blue’s favor and we’d still end up with Blue owning these problems and not knowing what to do about them.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Culture does the heavy lifting on this issue.

                I can recognize a right-wing talking point when I see it. By ‘culture’ you mean things like marriage, right?

                Psst: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/unmarried/unmarried.htmReport

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                RE: Culture
                Marriage.
                Attitude towards money.
                Trust in the gov/police.
                Education.
                Attitude towards gov hand outs.

                RE: Your link
                Yes. Team Blue rolled out massive disincentives to marriage at a federal level (to fight poverty and help people) which tanked marriage for many sub-cultures (the poor ones). Because minorities were poor at the time this hurt them worse than others but whatever.

                Blue/Red are massive coalitions. Red has some sub-groups that have poverty and Blue has some sub-groups that are highly functional economically.

                None of which changes that the gov seems bad at lifting people out of poverty and culture seems good. Nor that Blue wants fix this via the gov while Red, to the extent they do anything, mostly points to culture.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I’m just waiting for someone to make the connection between rural, agricultural, Republican areas and “attitudes toward government handouts”.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Let’s take a step back. Do you agree that culture is a huge determinate/influence on whether you’re going to end up in poverty?

                I.e. does culture have impact on your class?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Or is it the other way around?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I know I’ve made the same mistake on this thread, arguing about words without a clear definition, but if we’re analyzing the relationship between culture and class, we’re doubly doomed to fail.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Do you agree that culture is a huge determinate/influence on whether you’re going to end up in poverty?

                I flatly disagree with that in every possible way.

                What determines whether you are going to end up in poverty is how wealthy your parents are, which not only impacts base starting money, but also impacts the sort of connections you have in life, and how much time and effort parents are able to spend on you and the sort of education they can pay for.

                The US does not functionally have ‘class’ in the sense of ‘social standing independent of wealth’, except for the extremely upper-class who are allowed by their Ivy-school friends to still be upper-class even if they somehow accidentally get poor. (Although that’s usually just done by setting something up where they get money, so even that’s not really true.)

                It’s why we literally define class _by_ wealth in America.

                Likewise, almost everything claimed to be ‘culture’ WRT poor people is literally just ‘Things poor people have to do to survive or happen simply because they’re poor’. For example, the reason that poor people don’t get married as much isn’t because they don’t want to…research shows they’re actually _more_ likely to want marriage.

                Poor people don’t get married because being poor is _extremely_ stressful on marriages and relationships. Disagreements about money are the largest source of stress in any relationship, and as you might imagine, are worse for poor people, presumably to the point that poor people don’t actually _reach_ the point of marriage in relationships, and generally tend to keep relationships casual…because the second they try combining their finances, or even talking about that, there will be problems. If you are used to pinching every penny, handing control over to someone else and watching them decide to spend money on something you think is wasteful is extremely hard to do.

                Same with everything that’s criticized about ‘culture’. ‘Culture’ does not exist in some random void. Culture is _what the lives are people are shaped like_, and it is fluid…it shapes itself to fit the container it is in.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                I flatly disagree with that in every possible way.

                What determines whether you are going to end up in poverty is how wealthy your parents are, which not only impacts base starting money, but also impacts the sort of connections you have in life…

                So… all of the time and effort I’ve spent on teaching my children economic sanity and various other cultural values has been wasted? Forcing them to prioritize math? Preventing really bad choices? We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

                Poor people don’t get married because being poor is _extremely_ stressful on marriages and relationships.

                Various relatives have explained to me that they’re not getting married because the gov’s benefits make that choice uneconomic.

                At the most absurd, my PhD in Engineering brother, who is as much of a math guy as I am and makes more money, sat down with me and went over the numbers. Engineers argue over numbers, he had real money on the line and had done the homework.

                In the 4 out of 5 times where the couple has eventually gotten married, it’s been because of social pressure.

                Gov policy is in no small way driving this.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I’m in agreement with Dark that culture has an impact on the outcome of our lives, but have a few clarifications:

                1. There is a difference between “Macroculture” and “Microculture”.
                A macroculture might be the culture of Eastern European Jews who settled in the northeast, or Dust Bowl Okies who landed in California.
                Within these groups you find a multitude of microcultures which produce both success and failure.

                A microculture might be the redneck culture in the rural areas. A culture that is marked by tolerance of social dysfunction like drinking and violence and indifference to education.
                Or the hypercompetitive striver culture of affluent suburban families where parents aggressively push children upwards.

                2. The microcultures of both success and failure are found in all macrocultures and across the political spectrum, and are notoriously resistant to being changed, whether by government action, religion or social exhortation.

                Which gets back to the thrust of Kristin’s essay. The track record of conservative politics isn’t any better than the liberals.

                Red state and blue state people lead lives that are remarkably similar. They work as hard, slack as much, drink and smoke and fornicate about the same. They marry and divorce about the same.

                3. And in the end, culture is only one of many variables and only explains some of the empirical evidence.
                Had they been born in Bakersfield to blue collar fathers, George W. Bush and Donald Trump would have been a homeless drunk and used car salesman, respectively.
                Barack Obama and I were born into similar circumstances, but ended up in very different places.
                All of the Boomers sitting on a pile of home equity, had they been born a decade earlier or later, would be in radically different circumstances.

                Our parentage, our choices, and the political environment we were born in all have an equal influence on outcomes to culture.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The microcultures of both success and failure are found in all macrocultures and across the political spectrum, and are notoriously resistant to being changed, whether by government action, religion or social exhortation.

                I agree fully.

                The track record of conservative politics isn’t any better than the liberals.

                At a governmental level? Sure. The gov is the wrong tool.

                If we’re looking at President of the US or founder of a Fortune 500, then yes, agreed there’s a huge amount of luck.

                Bush2 is a weird example because he spent decades fooling around and drinking, and then got really serious about life and gave up the bottle. He was effectively two different men.

                Trump… I’ve no clue what culture we’re supposed to put him in. Maybe it’s a mistake to put a microscope on one specific person.

                Success isn’t really a Blue/Red thing but a ton of it is seriously cultural… and we have sub-cultures that either Blue or Red basically own or are allied to.

                Our parentage, our choices, and the political environment we were born in all have an equal influence on outcomes to culture.

                The thing about mixing together “our choices” and “culture” together in the same sentence is you have the choice whether to follow any specific cultural value. At that level of interaction there is no such thing as culture.

                If you’re a teen and your culture says you’re supposed to shoot your romantic rival, well, you have a choice.

                The proper way to evaluate this would be to compare one group that has that value to another that doesn’t. Highly likely we will find out it’s a negative cultural value from multiple points of view.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Marriage.

                Correlation does not equal causality, and to postulate that it does, you have to postulate some massive culture that is shared across _all_ poor people, across multiple states, races, ethnicities, etc.

                Or we can realize that lack of marriage does not cause poverty, poverty causes lack of marriage.

                Seriously, there’s an entire generation of people who are barely getting married at all because they are too poor, and explicitly stand there and list financial reasons as one of the main causes, and you’re pretending it’s the other way around But I’m sure Millennial’s unwillingness to get married is somehow _causing_ their generation’s lack of money.

                Attitude towards money.

                This is just nonsense of ‘poor people do some luxury things and they should not be allowed to do so’.

                Trust in the gov/police.

                LOL. I literally can’t figure out which way you’re arguing this.

                Are you saying that red states trust the government _more_ than blue states?

                Are you saying that distrust of the police somehow causes poverty? Under what mechanism would it do that?

                Education.

                How the hell is ‘What education the government will provide’ be culture?

                Oh, you mean ‘How interested they are in their children’s education?’

                Yeah, why don’t poor people spend their free time doing that?

                Attitude towards gov hand outs.

                Yeah, like school vouchers so they can take government money and send someone to a private school.

                Or, wait, what were we talking about?Report

              • Pinky in reply to DavidTC says:

                “Or we can realize that lack of marriage does not cause poverty, poverty causes lack of marriage.”

                Not historically, so why should we assume it’s the case now?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

                Not historically, so why should we assume it’s the case now?

                Yes historically.

                Care to guess what the marriage rate was during the Great Depression? About as low as it is now. (Maybe that somehow retroactively caused the Great Depression, just like how Millennials not getting married caused their poverty?)

                Marriage rate almost _directly_ correlates to societal wealth, this is true at every time in the past 100-years of American history (Barring WWII, where there literally simply weren’t men for a bit.) and the only question is what direction.

                And to figure that out, we’d want to look at things that obviously change wealth or marriage rates via some other thing.

                I’ve already mentioned that every depression has a downturn in marriage, so clearly there is causality in that direction.

                So what about the other direction? Do we have any point the marriage rates changed for some other reason?

                Well, we again have WWII drop in marriage, and the post-WWII boom spike, which wasn’t caused by the economy..bit while the economy did get better there, it’s hard to claim that’s due to marriage.

                Other than that, the only real spike was in the 1970s, during stragflation, a lot of people got married, probably because that was when baby-boomers hit the right time, and…I don’t now, the economy did eventually get better, but it seems hard to tease out that causation, and I’ve literally never heard anyone suggest that.

                So there’s not a lot of evidence that the marriage rate affects the economy, instead of being a _side effect_ of the economy.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Now, this is admittedly confusing, because people of low socioeconomic status tend to be married _more_, so it seems weird that, as more of those proporationally appear, marriages happen less.

                But that does, indeed, seem to be what happens.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                people of low socioeconomic status tend to be married _more_

                Same link as my other post. Low education status have seriously lower marriage rates, and low education is a good stand in for socioeconomic status.

                You’re wrong on some seriously basic facts. That suggests your conclusions are equally a mess.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Low education status have seriously lower marriage rates, and low education is a good stand in for socioeconomic status.

                When I said ‘tends to’, I meant ‘in a historic and global sense’, and I wasn’t talking about America. I was trying to compare the rates _to_ America. I probably could have been clearer there.

                Worldwide and historically, marriage rates are directly correlated with societal poverty. The poorest countries have the highest marriage rates. The highest marriage rate in the world is _Palestine_…which probably shouldn’t count, so the next highest is Fiji, also an incredibly poor nation. The lowest is _Qatar_, arguably the wealthiest nation in the world.

                Look at this list and tell me which end of it you want us to be on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_marriage_rate

                This is almost certainly because of poor access to contraceptives and the inability of women to support a family, so they have to get married. As women have more economic freedom, they choose to get married less.

                In America, like I said, in the previous post, it goes the other way around. Although…there’s an interesting fact there: You see, marriage rates among the poor are probably the ‘correct’ level in the US, compared to every other nation.

                It’s the middle-class marriage rates that are out of wack. probably due to the long-standing religious fundamentalism that this country suffers for.

                Every country you think of as a ‘first world country’ or whatever you want to call ‘equal of the US’, has a marriage rate lower than the US, often _quite_ lower…France has a marriage rate of half the US.

                This basic fact disproves everything conservatives keep yammering about marriage and ‘culture’.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                marriage rates among the poor are probably the ‘correct’ level in the US, compared to every other nation.

                Pulling in other countries makes a mess of things. We then need to define “what is poor” because our poor are better off than the middle class of the poorer nations.

                It’s especially jarring because at no point did you mention you were talking about other countries and at no point on this entire thread did other countries come up.

                Nor does your argument make the slightest bit of sense even if we ignore that. Pulling in the rest of the world means… the US’s Black marriage rate fell off a cliff because they got richer? Richer than the rest of the United States?

                I’ll end this with: Culture matters, a lot.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Care to guess what the marriage rate was during the Great Depression? About as low as it is now.

                Interesting statement/idea. I looked it up and our current marriage rate is HALF of what it was in the Great Depression.

                https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/college-of-arts-and-sciences/NCFMR/documents/FP/FP-13-13.pdf

                This is the sort of graph you should be putting up.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I looked it up and our current marriage rate is HALF of what it was in the Great Depression.

                That graph isn’t the _rate_ of marriage, despite what it says. It is (supposedly) the _proportion_ of married people. It is the number of people currently married, not the number of people _getting_ married.

                Also…that graph is flatly wrong. I can’t imagine in what universe they think 92% of the population was married in 1920, and only 67% in 1930…that would require either massive divorce that didn’t exist back then or large amounts of the population dying in the 1920s, which didn’t happen. (The 1910s, yes, the 1920, no.)

                If you look down at it split out by demographics, and look at 1920, you will see the claimed marriage rate of 92% for 1920 is literally impossible…no demographic group has a marriage rate higher than 75%, and most of them are 60%!

                In fact, you will see quite a lot of their years are obvious nonsense. They claim 2010 has a marriage rate of 31%, but where broken down, they say…Black people have a marriage rate of 26%, and everyone else is reasonably higher than 31%. That math can’t possibly work unless Black people outnumber all other groups put together, they’d have to be like 70% of the population!

                I.e., this entire page is nonsense.

                Here is a graph of the actual percent of the population that got married each year:

                https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/marriage_rate_2018/marriage_rate_2018.htm

                You will notice that the percentage of the population that got married in 1932 takes a rather sharp dip. In fact, if you think about what you know about the economy, you can easily see it in the graph…you can see stagflation in the 70sReport

              • Pinky in reply to DavidTC says:

                Wait, why would we want to be looking at the marriage rate without reference to the divorce rate? What’s the data supposed to be showing us? Your proposed theory was “poverty causes lack of marriage”. A decline in marriage rates during recession could be used as support for your position, but it could as likely be proof of delaying marriage. Given the increase in divorces in recent decades, I think percentage of people married is a better indicator.Report

  17. DensityDuck says:

    Kristin, you should know that we can only criticize true Scotsmen.Report

  18. If government by performativeness is a failure, will DeSantis stop constantly having laws passed against the issue of the day?Report

  19. Dark Matter says:

    DavidTC has 2+ replies to me that I can’t see here. Can someone else see them or were they deleted?Report