Texas Abortion Fortune Hunter’s Bill and an Impotent SCOTUS

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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127 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusions but I’m going to quibble with you very slightly on the ‘it isn’t a ban’ point. I only do this because I think calling it a ‘ban’ is an oversimplification of what’s happening that makes it harder for laypeople to grasp. Obviously the intent is to make the cost of exercising a right so high as to render it untenable for people to actually do it, without imposing a ban. If it were just a ban, this would be easy. This is more insidious and people need to understand the why and how.

    Anyway my hope is that this is eventually corrected. I’ve been asking people to imagine a law that grants a cause of action against others by private parties for attending church. Or a protest. Or owning a handgun. Or telling the police they can’t search their home without a warrant. Sure the government isn’t imposing a sanction itself, but we all understand what the outcome would be for all civil liberties if such an approach were allowed to stand. That to me is the point that needs to be hammered home, and it stands no matter wherw anyone is on the specific issue of abortion.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

      I’ve said before that the parallels between Anti-abortion and Anti-gun people are striking, so I agree. Imagine if the fact that you own a gun potentially opened you up to civil lawsuits for whatever reason? Are you the kind of person who keeps a gun in your nightstand? You could get sued! Do you have more guns than hands? You could be sued! Etc.

      Once again, people fail to even try to understand the long term unintended consequences of their actions. If this is allowed to stand (& I seriously hope it isn’t), I fully expect it to be something other states employ against the exercising of a right in ways others find offensive.Report

      • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        Listen to a podcast your local legislative representative thinks is ‘hate speech’? Well we can’t sue the podcaster and we won’t ban the podcast but your neighbor can sue if they overhear you listening to it.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        As a lefty gun owner, I don’t want to be sued for owning guns. Doesn’t fly. But I still want to be required to show proficiency regularly, and to be required to carry additional insurance and be subject to additional civil scrutiny if I use said weapon in anything that’s not hunting, shooting sports involving targets, or clear self defense.

        That aside, state punting enforcement responsibilities to private citizens has all sorts of nasty consequences. Hell, “Stand your ground” laws fit into that category, and those don’t seem to be going well for the people erroneously shot.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

          Sure, and my point is that such enforcement of gun restrictions is not left to the civil courts (except perhaps a wrongful death suit, where those bringing suit have actual standing to sue).Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        The analogy illustrates why this will not spread beyond abortion and maybe one or two other pet issues for the Right.

        There isn’t any issue that has so warped a party as abortion has for the right. It has become for them the devil in whose pursuit they are willing to cut down the forest of laws.

        The idea that the Roberts court would decline to stay a California gun ban like this is preposterous.
        The modern conservative movement views laws as merely arbitrary tools to accomplish a goal, nothing more.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          This is very true. Reading Heather Cox-Richardson’s great daily blog, one finds that most moderate Republicans were in support of a well defined right to abortion in the early 1970’s. Nixon, desperate to win reelection in 1972, began to peel them off, and to acquire moderate Catholic votes, by adding abortion to his characterizations of McGovern. It worked, and Republican politicians and grifters have used it ever since, mostly as a marker for “keeping women in their place.”

          Much like all the other Republican excesses of the last 40 years, they don’t care about how it looks to anyone else – it is a means to their end, which is permanent minority rule by rich, conservative white men.Report

          • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H says:

            It worked, and Republican politicians and grifters have used it ever since, mostly as a marker for “keeping women in their place.”

            One thing we would expect to see, if this were true, is a very large gender gap in support for abortion rights. Surely women would be much less interested than men in passing laws to keep women in their place.

            But we don’t actually see that. Time after time, polls show a very small gender gap in views on abortion. I’ve seen many polls that actually show men more in favor of abortion rights than women, but regardless of which way it goes, the gap is consistently on the order of a few percentage points.

            What could explain this? Might it be that the disagreement is not about women’s rights at all, but about fetal rights?

            Look, I’m as shocked as you are. The only way anyone could possibly have guessed that this might be true is to look at widely available public polling data, or to listen to what literally every person who opposes abortion has been saying for decades instead of just assuming that everyone who disagrees with us is an actual cartoon villain.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Brandon Berg says:

              You are really surpsied that there are plenty of women who prefer the patriarchy?
              Women who gain benefits from putting [other] women in their place?

              For example, Barry Goldwater’s daughter, whom he personally drove to her abortion appointment. Or Republican DesJarlais’s mistress, who had an embarrassing unexpected pregnancy.

              These women and millions like them, are able to enjoy the benefits of both the system which elevates them above other women due to class and money, while also availing themselves to freedom to control their own bodies as they see fit.

              Which is the point people keep making over and over.

              These moral codes tend to be gamed by powerful people, selectively enforced only against the poor and powerless to keep them in their place.Report

        • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Chip, don’t be naive. Obviously the right would never do this with respect to rights it values, and if it holds the left would of course be willing to respond in kind with respect to rights it doesn’t value.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

      The law is EVEN MORE INSANE than that.

      You can’t actually sue the person who gets the abortion under it, the lawmakers excluded them in an attempt to screw with legality more.

      Instead you can sue _anyone_ who assists the abortion in any way.

      …So, this isn’t introducing a private cause of action to sue someone for having a gun or going to church. It’s even insaner: This is allowing a random person to sue someone for driving a bus that vaguely goes near a church or gun store.

      Yes, seriously. Lyft and Uber just issued a promise that if one of their drivers is sued for transporting someone to an abortion clinic, they will cover the legal costs. This is…not a crazy hypothetical. Transportation to an abortion is _explicitly_ allowed as one of the things people can be sued for.

      Note this does not even appear to apply mens rea, or maybe it does, but notable _even if you are innocent_, you end up paying court costs.

      This is utterly f***ing insane, as a law. It essentially invents the widest possible concept of ‘conspiracy’, and applies it to actions taken without any intent, or even knowledge, to accomplish something that isn’t a crime. If you do anything that even vaguely might have helped an abortion, you are liable.

      And _even if the lawsuit is without merit_, aka, if the person you helped whatever manner did not actually get an abortion, if there was absolutely no case…even if the lawsuit is completely frivolous…you still cannot recover court costs.

      Which, honestly, is going to cause the law to rather quickly collapse into a singularity as people accuse Republican lawmakers of assisting abortions. We really need thousands of pro bono lawsuits filed in Texas making random accusations about Republican politications. Apparently, that’s how courts work now.Report

  2. PD Shaw says:

    As a practical matter, seems like a Cardinal rule has been ignored, when in doubt, sue them all.

    The majority does not believe a case can be made against the people sued. Roberts essentially concedes this might be correct, but wants a stay to give the court an opportunity to fully reflect on the complex issues. Kagan makes similar points without any concession.

    Breyer points to Planned Parenthood v. Danforth as the most analogous decision involving the interplay of law and private actors. Danforth was the Attorney General of Missouri. He also cites to Planned Parenthood v. Casey, and Casey was the Governor of Pennsylvania. The plaintiff should also have sued the Governor and the Attorney General to avoid what appears to be an empty chair problem.Report

    • Philip H in reply to PD Shaw says:

      Texas seems to have structured this law to keep the chair permanently empty. It was a nefariously clever move.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to PD Shaw says:

      Whole Woman’s Health also included several state officials as respondents, including the attorney general.Report

      • PD Shaw in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        Why is that not mentioned in the opinion anywhere? That certainly undercuts my points, but at least as a matter of my state’s law, the Attorney General is the chief legal officer of the State charged with enforcing the laws of the state, even those in which the AG is not given a remedy. If a litigant in private litigation seeks a court order that a law is unconstitutional, notice has to be given to the AG to allow an opportunity to intervene and defend the law. I think the focus on the remedy provided by the statute here is a cribbed interpretation of what enforcement means.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to PD Shaw says:

          The plaintiffs make this point in their briefs: “Applicants sued certain State licensing officials and the Attorney General of Texas (the “State Agency Respondents”) because, although these officials cannot directly enforce the Act’s ban on providing, aiding, or abetting abortions, they are authorized and required to bring administrative and civil enforcement actions under other laws that are triggered by violations of S.B. 8. App.17–18; S.B. 8 § 171.207(a); see also, e.g., Tex. Occ. Code § 164.055(a) (requiring the Texas Medical Board to “take an appropriate disciplinary action against a physician who violates . . . Chapter 171, Health and Safety Code”).

          Sounds good to me. Also, I don’t believe the Attorney General cannot indirectly enforce this law, by cobbling together authority to bring injunctions and public nuisance law, but it would be hard to prove when the AG denies it.Report

        • Em Carpenter in reply to PD Shaw says:

          You’re right, and I should have addressed that more in the piece. In fact I may edit to include that at least in a footnote.Report

          • PD Shaw in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            Certainly nothing wrong with your piece. I think I read an explainer elsewhere that only identified a judge and a court clerk as party defendants, and that didn’t make sense to me. I rambled on about it here yesterday.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to PD Shaw says:

      There’s. no point suing Paxton; he would just find himself not liable.Report

  3. Saul Degraw says:

    Why do you think they are impotent? This is what Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, and ACB think they were put on the Bench for. The Supreme Court, more often than not is a reactionary institution. The right wing has spent nearly 40 years trying to take over the judiciary and they have succeeded.

    The impotent ones are people like Noah Feldman who triple down on their institutionalism and think Roe is still safe. Roe is not safe and there is no such thing as settled law. Never think anything is settled, it just breeds complacency.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Another case where the Democratic-appointed justices march in lockstep and the Republican-appointed justices entertain independent thoughts.Report

    • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      The bleak silver lining is that the GOP can’t really do the pro-life two step anymore. They can’t say they’re pro-life while RvW and the Supreme court keep them from doing something substantive on the matter. The bleak reality is that red states are going to become a lot more restrictive on abortion rights in the immediate future. The upside is that they will have to actually govern that way and voters will have to reassess their priorities accordingly.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

        Hmm, they probably will do the two-step and a good chunk of the media will let them get away with it and people might still believe it. There was a time during 2012 when the Obama campaign showed a focus group, the Ryan budget. The focus group refused to believe that any group can be so callous.

        And there will always be people like Pinky who delude themselves on the diversity of the Republican party and that “Democrats are the real locksteppers.”Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Impotent was meant tongue-in-cheek.Report

  4. LeeEsq says:

    Seconding my brother on this. Matthew Yglesias had a good article on the problem of fancy liberal lawyers back in late June on his sub stack. The Federalist Society exists for a reason and they aren’t ashamed of it.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to LeeEsq says:

      I was in law school when the Federalist Society was being formed. I pegged it then as an organized job-referral organization, gussied up with members and sympathizers and aligned judges quoting each other in an endless circle jerk to create greater reciprocal visibility. The leftish end of the spectrum and mine-run liberals aren’t wired for this sort of thing, preferring the individual scramble for prominence, and I figured it would eventually bite them in the ass. I hate it when I’m right.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to CJColucci says:

        “The leftish end of the spectrum and mine-run liberals aren’t wired for this sort of thing, preferring the individual scramble for prominence, and I figured it would eventually bite them in the ass. I hate it when I’m right.”

        Would bite the leftish ones in the ass, you mean? Yep. We seem incapable of forming the liberal equivalent of the Federalist Society.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          The liberal equivalent of the Federalist Society is the entire legal academic world except for members of the Federalist Society.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            This, right here, is the core of my argument.

            Conservatives correctly point out that they and their ideas are a minority viewpoint, held by a shrinking number of citizens.

            Yet they demand on holding majority power, using coercive power and even violence to force the majority to bend to the will of the minority.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              You equate the views of academics with the views of all citizens? Weird.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Actually, without conceding your point (because it’s wrong), I’ll give you this much: the interpretation of the Constitution isn’t supposed to be a matter of majority viewpoint. If you want to portray that as a coercive position, feel free, but only if you first apologize for everything that happened under Warren and Burger, and also acknowledge that the will of the majority in Texas was where this bill came from.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Nationwide, only a minority of the electorate prefers Republicans as a brand.
                And if you drill down issue by issue, almost none of the major policy preferences of Republicans have majority support.

                There are pockets where they are preferred- but even red states like Texas, Georgia, and Wisconsin are mostly blue.

                If those states elected their legislatures in statewide at-large elections, Republicans almost certainly wouldn’t hold a trifecta and would need to share power.

                Republicans themselves have said this, in court as a defense against partisan gerrymandering.

                So its pretty much inarguable that Republican political ideology is unpopular, and shrinking.

                The only question is whether counter majoritarian mechanisms are justified. In which case, the burden is on the affirmative side.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                also acknowledge that the will of the majority in Texas was where this bill came from.

                Except they don’t:

                “Nearly half of the state’s voters (49%) support making abortions illegal after 6 weeks — except in the case of a medical emergency. That includes the support of 74% of Republicans. Among Democrats, 67% oppose the idea.

                For all of that, there’s no consensus about changing the state’s current abortion laws: 33% would make them stricter, 33% would make them less strict and 22% would leave them alone. The partisan break is evident in those answers, too: 55% of Republicans would tighten the state’s abortion laws and 63% of Democrats would loosen them.”

                https://www.kxan.com/news/political-news/nearly-half-of-all-texans-support-abortion-ban-after-6-weeks-new-poll-finds/

                I also note the same story says the majority of voters don’t back the unrestricted firearms carry law that went into effect as well.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to CJColucci says:

        Matt Yglesias wrote in his substack wrote that a lot of fancy liberal lawyers knew that Obama was going to nominate Sonia Sotomayor and were disappointed in the choice. They weren’t disappointed because of her opinion but because she did not have a “sparklling mind.” Many liberals do not like legal realism or the idea that we should promote reliable liberals rather than the most brilliant is really distasteful to them.Report

  5. Oscar Gordon says:

    I will say that my FB feed as of late is full of calls to spam the hell out of the abortion whistleblower site, such that to noise to signal ratio becomes just noise.Report

  6. Kazzy says:

    “The Court claims it is impotent to act because no Texas state official has the ability to enforce the law.”

    But… how can that be?

    Joe Blow sues. Someone somewhere has to make that all happen. Who compels the defendant to attend trial? Who compels them to pay? Etc, etc, etc. This has been framed as a form of vigilantism but it really isn’t because it only empowers folks to use existing powers of the state. So… why aren’t those who are ultimately behind those powers of the state who can be targeted in the challenge?Report

    • wvesquiress in reply to Kazzy says:

      That’s why the judge (and clerk) was sued. But the Court is saying they are not prepared to say they have the ability to enjoin the judiciary from performing its core function.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Kazzy says:

      I don’t necessarily agree with the decision, but the issue is this: The Eleventh Amendment bars lawsuits against states in federal court. The Fourteenth Amendment bars States from depriving any person their due process rights.

      The two of these were harmonized in a case called Ex Parte Young (1908), in which Minnesota passed a law limiting what railroads could charge passengers, subject to fines and even jail time. Railroad stockholders sued the Attorney General in federal court for fear that he would enforce the law against their corporations.

      The Attorney General resisted the lawsuit, stating that Minnesota had not consented to federal court jurisdiction, and he was merely being sued in his capacity as a state official, thus immune from suit under the 11th Amendment. The trial court entered an injunction similar to the one sought here to prevent the Attorney General from enforcing the law pending the resolution of the case.

      The case made its way to the Supreme Court, which resolved the 11th/14th Amendment issues by adopting a fiction. Minnesota is required to comply with the U.S. Constitution, and whenever a state official acts in violation of the U.S. Constitution, he or she is not acting in an official capacity, but is acting without authority as an individual. Thus, the state official does not enjoy sovereign immunity. But the fiction is that for purposes of the 14th Amendment, the state official is acting on behalf of the state, even though he is not for 11th Amendment purposes. Sort of like a tax is not a tax sometimes.

      The law challenged here precludes the Attorney General from enforcing the law, only private party enforcement is allowed. It does not appear to have any precedent, or at least the dissent does not point to any. I personally think the Attorney General, as chief legal officer of the State, is a meaningful proxy for the State.

      In your hypothetical, Joe Blow is a private party acting under color of state law, and his lawsuit can be the vehicle to challenge the Constitutionality of the state law.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to PD Shaw says:

        You clearly know more than me so pardon my ignorance but…

        Joe Blow sues Dr A.
        Dr A doesn’t even appear.
        Joe Blow wins.
        Dr A doesn’t pay. Dr A doesn’t change his practice.

        What happens?Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

          My in-expert opinion:

          State attempts to enforce the judgement and Dr. A. immediately sues the state / state official attempting to enforce the judgement.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            That’s my hunch? Hope? A vigilante is only as powerful as the rule of law makes him. If the rule of law empowers him, somewhere there is a ruler of that law to sue.Report

          • PD Shaw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            Not confident about that. Kazzy has Dr. A allowing a default judgment to be entered against him, which probably waives all defenses he would have had against the judgment if he had appeared in court. Bad things happen when you don’t appear in court.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to Kazzy says:

          A default judgment is entered against Dr. A, and Joe Blow pursues whatever collection procedures that are available under Texas Law (putting a lien on Dr. A’s property; garnishing wages; auctioning his car) and if Dr. A does not appear in court to explain why he isn’t paying the judgment, he might end up in jail for contempt and part of his bail used to pay off some/all of the judgment.

          To the extent he doesn’t change his practice, he is subject to more lawsuits.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to PD Shaw says:

            Okay then… assume he shows up to court, represents himself (no attorney fees), loses, and doesn’t pay.

            At some point an officer of the state gets involved, no? Is that person not subject to suit?Report

            • PD Shaw in reply to Kazzy says:

              Just to step back a bit. What the plaintiffs want here is to temporarily stop enforcement of the law pending resolution of their case. Who does the court order to stop enforcing the law? And are they a party to the lawsuit?

              If they knew Joe Blow would enforce the law against them, Joe Blow would have been made a party and the injunction would be against him.
              The plaintiffs here sued a private party that apparently expressed an interest in enforcing the law as a general matter, but filed an affidavit stating that he has no present intention to enforce the law. Even if they ordered him not to enforce the law, it would not prohibit anybody else.

              I agree with your point above that there is a lot of state action in litigation, but if a court is going to order someone not to do something, they generally need to be a party to a lawsuit with an opportunity of notice and an opportunity to be heard.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to PD Shaw says:

                My understanding is that the “brilliance” of this law is it makes the potential litigants in an opposition suit, well, everyone. Sue Joe Blow and you stop him but John Bon steps up. Etc.

                But if all the defendants in such suits just ignore all that and carry on… then what?Report

              • PD Shaw in reply to Kazzy says:

                Too many hypothetical variations for me, I’m not sure who the defendants are and what they are ignoring. If Joe Blow is ordered not to enforce the law and he files suit under the law, he is in contempt and subject to sanctions. The Ex Parte Young case got to the Supreme Court via a Attorney General Young’s challenge to the contempt proceedings against him.Report

          • PD Shaw in reply to PD Shaw says:

            Should add that according to the plaintiff’s brief, there also appear to be some licensing / regulatory actions that might be taken following a judgment. I’m not clear on this, but the Attorney General appears to be able to pursue civil penalties subsequent to the underlying judgment.Report

  7. Fugitive Slave Act 1850

    And be it further enacted, That any person who shall knowingly and willingly obstruct, hinder, or prevent such claimant, his agent or attorney, or any person or persons lawfully assisting him, her, or them, from arresting such a fugitive from service or labor, either with or without process as aforesaid, or shall rescue, or attempt to rescue, such fugitive from service or labor, from the custody of such claimant, his or her agent or attorney, or other person or persons lawfully assisting as aforesaid, when so arrested, pursuant to the authority herein given and declared; or shall aid, abet, or assist such person so owing service or labor as aforesaid, directly or indirectly, to escape from such claimant, his agent or attorney, or other person or persons legally authorized as aforesaid; or shall harbor or conceal such fugitive, so as to prevent the discovery and arrest of such person, after notice or knowledge of the fact that such person was a fugitive from service or labor as aforesaid, shall, for either of said offences, be subject to a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisonment not exceeding six months, by indictment and conviction before the District Court of the United States for the district in which such offence may have been committed, or before the proper court of criminal jurisdiction, if committed within any one of the organized Territories of the United States; and shall moreover forfeit and pay, by way of civil damages to the party injured by such illegal conduct, the sum of one thousand dollars for each fugitive so lost as aforesaid, to be recovered by action of debt, in any of the District or Territorial Courts aforesaid, within whose jurisdiction the said offence may have been committed.

    Report

  8. LeeEsq says:

    A lawyer on another blog pointed out that the real meaning of this case is that reactionary Republicans have found a way around the Ex Parte Young problem. You can write perfectly unconstitutional laws by not having any named state official to enforce them. So if you write the law like the Texas abortion bill, everything is privately enforced, than there is this perfect mechanism to allows states to violate civil liberties.Report

    • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq says:

      I am 100% sure that is exactly the point.

      Now I’d love to see any of our resident lawyers look at the newly minted Texas voting laws through this lens.

      Go ahead. I double dog dare you.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Philip H says:

        The new Texas voting laws are in part because the Texas Republicans might still be self-aware enough that this bill could easily cause a big backlash against them, enough to bring the Democratic Party over the line. They are hoping that the new voting laws can keep them in power by making it hard for the opposition to get out and vote.Report

  9. Jaybird says:

    Is abortion as energizing an issue in the current year as it was in the 80’s?

    It doesn’t feel like it but I don’t know that I have a good perspective on this.Report

    • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

      I actually love that they cited the prohibition on data harvesting in the TOU. That’s completely legit and I commend whoever their lawyer is for thinking of it.Report

  10. Michael Cain says:

    My own guess — and that’s all it is — is that it dies in federal court when challenged on the basis of nullifying federal medical records privacy laws. Texas courts can’t put medical procedure records into the public domain w/o approval of the patient. Should it get appealed to the SCOTUS, the three liberals, Roberts, and Kavanaugh will not vote for nullification.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

      So if a defendant is accused of performing an abortion, they can demand proof in the form of medical records / billing? And when the records are subpoenaed, they can quash it in federal court?Report

      • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        No. Medical records are discoverable. Sometimes certain assurances are required for PHI and there may be some state privacy laws in play but they’re relevant to all kinds of litigation.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to InMD says:

          Yeah, seems discoverable, but I also think if someone gets sued in state court and removes the case to federal court that should stop discovery in state court.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

          Medical records _of third parties_?

          This law does not allow suing the person who hypothetically got the abortion. Only people who ‘assisted them’. Aka, the medical records are not those of who is being sued.

          But it sets up a situation where, if the plaintiff prevails, it reveals that specific person _did_ get an abortion. By definition. And this appears to be public knowledge.

          To repeat: This law appears to reveal the private medical information of someone _who is not a party to the suit_. At all.

          That, itself, seems like a constitutional violation of privacy.Report

          • InMD in reply to DavidTC says:

            There are controls that can be
            and often are put in place by the court to prevent sensitive records from becoming public, including records of third parties. Not sure I see a constitutional right to privacy issue.

            But look I’m not really interested in defending this. I think it’s terrible for numerous reasons.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

              Yeah, I don’t think _any_ of us have any interest in defending this utter nonsense.

              There are controls that can be and often are put in place by the court to prevent sensitive records from becoming public.

              But my point is, once you actually look at the process, the facts _cannot_ be kept from becoming public. Let’s say I sue you for helping with X’s abortion, because you’re a Lyft driver who drove them:

              The lawsuit is public record, and that the filed grounds of that lawsuit is that you helped with X’s abortion. So the public knows, when I file that suit, that I believe X got an abortion. Which is fine, that’s technically just an opinion, a claim, by me. I could randomly assert that anywhere I want. That’s not a reveal of medical records.

              But then I win the suit, which again would be public information. There’s nothing under this law that keeps it secret, and in fact, there cannot be, because one of the premises is that only the _first_ winner of a lawsuit can get any damages, which means, by necessity, everyone has to know the outcome of previous suits.

              And…this winning requires there to have actually been an abortion.

              I mean, maybe I’m wrong, maybe there’s some way to hide some of that, but…the law doesn’t require filing under a seal! The claim of who got the abortion should be literally right there, in the court docket, as _part_ of the first filing. And if the plaintiff wins, we know the person listed did indeed get an abortion.

              And even with hypothetical procedures to handle confidential medical information, and some ‘filing under a seal’ that does not appear to exist…who exactly is the side that is supposed to protect that access, to redact records and whatnot? It’s not the plaintiff, and it’s possibly not the defendant! In cases with those confidential records, it’s always _one of the parties_ with the records, fighting to keep them secret, and the court requires them to filter them and hand them over under specific rules. Here, it is not!

              So now some third party (the doctor) has gotten entangled in this suit, about the confidential medical records of X, yet another third party.

              And when you remember that the justification for the constitutional protection of abortion is _medical privacy_, and there’s no way to do these sort of lawsuits within any sort of framework that protects the medical privacy of a person who is not one of the parties of the suit…uh…I mean, it seems obvious which way this case should go under current precedent.

              In addition to it being absurd in other ways.Report

              • JS in reply to DavidTC says:

                “And…this winning requires there to have actually been an abortion.”

                IIRC, it’s a civil case, which means preponderance of evidence. Which is explained to a jury as “more likely than not”.

                That’s a fairly low bar, which many juries would convict on just because someone testified she’d been seen entering Planned Parenthood.

                You and I know they do far more than abortions there, but we’d be struck from the jury pool ASAP.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to JS says:

                I have to wonder if the politicians who passed this understand any of that.

                I mean, what are we looking at? Right to Life comes to them and says “you will vote for this”?Report

  11. Dark Matter says:

    I had thought (from watching Law & Order) that the State couldn’t hire someone to do something that it’s not allowed to do itself.

    I’m also weirded out by the whole treatment of “standing” here. Everyone in the nation has standing to bring suit against some random person to “avenge” an illegal abortion? But abortion itself wasn’t made illegal here? So Right To Life was basically given law enforcement powers?

    My basic expectation is Roe is overturned but this law is ruled unconstitutional because it’s such a cluster.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Standing is my thought too. I’m not a lawyer, but I always thought you had to have suffered some sort of injury to have it. So, how is some random stranger in TX in injured if Jane Doe gets an abortion?Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Abortion (after heartbeat) *was* made illegal:
      “Sec. 171.204. PROHIBITED ABORTION OF UNBORN CHILD WITH DETECTABLE FETAL HEARTBEAT; EFFECT. (a) Except as provided by Section 171.205, a physician may not knowingly perform or induce an abortion on a pregnant woman if the physician detected a fetal heartbeat for the unborn child as required by Section 171.203 or failed to perform a test to detect a fetal heartbeat.”

      They just didn’t attach criminal penalties… hence the private enforcement.Report

  12. Em Carpenter says:

    I’m curious: If the state has no role in enforcement, why they need a tip line? What are they doing with that info?Report

  13. Ken S says:

    I have another question. It seems that the law gives every citizen of Texas standing to sue over every abortion. So what’s to stop 100,000 people from filing a lawsuit every time an abortion is performed, and each collecting $10,000 for each abortion?Report

    • North in reply to Ken S says:

      Nothing. That is the point of the bill. Every abortion is subject to these lawsuits and then the clinic or sued individuals will have to affirmatively prove the abortion in question didn’t violate the liability enumerated in the bill at considerable legal cost. The point of the bill is to make abortion provision fiscally impossible to provide.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to North says:

        The law actually only allows the first lawsuit winner to collect.

        Which raised the really weird idea that someone who supports abortion rights could just sue literally everyone involved in an abortion, win, and hand the winnings back to the people it took them from.

        Or that they could sue _each other_, in a spectacularly absurd twist.

        Yet another way this law is absurdly stupid.Report

  14. Oscar Gordon says:

    Good news, Texas! Now you can go to Mexico for an abortion!Report