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Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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44 Responses

  1. Jaybird says:

    Ah, Freddie is a brand plucked from the fire.

    Personally, I’m curious as to how much of Antifa is COINTELPRO but, you know, something something “goats”.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

      Dang, doesn’t he know he’s undermining the cause?Report

    • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

      The most old school Freddie post I’ve seen since his reemergence, both in its content and in its target ,though he clearly knows who his current audience is, by his tendency to blur together the idea of antifa as a movement (a real thing) and a single group (not a real thing).Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

        Ah, yes. The whole “single group” thing.

        To be honest, I consider anybody who is opposed to Nazis to be Antifa.

        Which means everybody. One single group.

        And if anyone points to any particular incident involving people dressed up like they’re cosplaying being in the black bloc, I’m going to react with wide-eyed bemusement and say that it’s not about people but about an idea and not everybody who does something in the name of this idea is a representative of it.

        Unlike the fascists and the landlords and my ex-girlfriend.Report

        • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

          Snark aside, the question is whether antifa is like fascists and landlords. Are there structural issues that determine the bad behavior of antifa, like there are for landlords? Are there ideological issues that determine the bad behavior of antifa , like there are for fascists? Freddie is arguing that it was known, by people involved in the antifa movement one way or another, that black block folks could use it to justify random violence, which suggests there may be issues in the ideology, but does not suggest that they run as deep as those within fascism. For example, fascists can’t warn about the ills of fascism, because the ills are part of fascism. That antifa-aligned folks can warn about potential issues with antifa suggests that’s not true of the ideology (or more accurately, ideologies) that drive antifa.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

            You know what it reminds me of? People saying shit like “Christianity isn’t a religion. It’s a *RELATIONSHIP* with God!”

            Like, I appreciate the theory but you have a lot of unshared premises in there and you seem to not appreciate that there might be outside observers who see a lot of mismatch between stated premises and behavior.

            I mean, I appreciate that you’re a good person trying to be a better person and part of that involves making bad people stop being bad but this where it might be useful to read “To a Louse, On Seeing one on a Lady’s Bonnet at Church” again.Report

            • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

              So, if there’s no set membership, leadership structure, or ideology, we can definitely say it’s like these other groups with at least one, and likely more of those things, because some people are violent and some aren’t.

              Under this view, the worst acts of Pinochet are built into libertarianism. All breeds of libertarianism. If you call yourself a libertarian, Pinochet is one of you. You are, in fact, Pinochet. There is no possible way any outside observer could see it otherwise.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                So it’s like “Protestantism”.

                My problem isn’t with the whole Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control thing. That strikes me as not that bad an idea.

                It’s the church-goers. And, of course, not *ALL* of them.

                Just the loud ones.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                Protestantism is a pretty good analogy, in that there are violent fundamentalists and mainliners who have no interest whatsoever in getting into fights.

                Hell, this is part of Freddie’s point: that the violence is in fact is made possible by the lack of structure, orthodoxy, etc.: if no one is running the show, and there’s no overarching ideology or leadership to keep people in line, then people who want to violent can latch on and be violent in the name of the amorphous group. Basically think of the worst of black block (rather than the merely defensive folks) as the Westboro Baptist protestants of antifa.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                I suppose that the fundamental disconnect is over the claim that Westboro Baptists exist but Antifa doesn’t.

                “If you’d actually *READ* the Bible, you’d see that Antifa doesn’t exist.”Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                One thing I’m sure you understand, or if you don’t, I suggest more research into the left, is that there are left groups that participate in antifa. These groups have different structures, sizes, and types of members, but there are groups. Here in Austin, there are a few black block groups that existed before most people knew antifa was a thing (antifa has been a thing for more than 85 years) who latched onto antifa, have participated in the rallies, and have consistently (and eagerly) prepared to butt heads with fascists (especially proud boys). You can think of those groups as Westboro, other groups (say, DSA) as mainline protestants, and unaffiliated folks, of both the violent and non-violent types, as spiritual bunt not religious types.Report

              • Chris in reply to Chris says:

                And sort of like Protestantism, most of the groups don’t think of themselves as primarily focusing on antifa. Here in Austin, e.g., the Maoists tend to focus on gentrification, DSA on housing/homelessness, unions, abortion access, and the national DSA issues like green new deal and MFA, the Trotskists on, well, whatever they focus on, Platypus on reading Lenin and Adorno, etc., etc. Here, even the Boogaloo boys, who aren’t really leftists at all, have participated in antifa stuff, mostly seeing themselves as “security” (one of them was in fact killed).Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                I’m just glad that we’ve moved away from the whole “not a real thing” obfuscation.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well, now you’re obfuscating. I figure that’s enough of this conversation, then.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                “his tendency to blur together the idea of antifa as a movement (a real thing) and a single group (not a real thing).”

                Yeah, that blurring.

                Man.

                For what it’s worth, I don’t see the blurring as a real thing.

                I mean, Jesus. This is just the “very fine people” argument.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think you guys both misread what Freddie is writing here which is really media criticism. Antifa/black bloc is whoever raises its flag at any given time. Much like what BLM has become it needs to be looked at in a consequentialist way. When it does something good, like preventing innocent people exercising their rights from being physically attacked by third parties, it is good. When it does something bad, like beating up members of the press or ransacking private property, it is bad.

                The piece is a standard Freddie riff where he asks why blue check progressive twitter/mainstream press is incapable of seeing this.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                Yeah, I’m more criticizing a particular way in which Freddie is talking about it, rather than his larger point, which seems (as was often the case with his criticisms of the left in the past) pretty uncontroversial in its actual propositional content.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Chris says:

                Islam is an even better example, though there the violent extremists are both outliers for the religion as a whole and state-funded.Report

              • Chris in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                I thought about that, but I don’t know Islam and its various divisions well enough, whereas growing up where I grew up, Protestantism was inescapable (even though I grew up Catholic).Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Chris says:

            Are there structural issues that determine the bad behavior of antifa

            Attracting bad actors who just want to be violent.
            The idea that they’re going to use non-state violence for political ends.
            The idea that their violence is special and will only be used on people who deserve it.

            Yeah, I see some serious structural issues there.Report

            • Chris in reply to Dark Matter says:

              What do you think it is that attracts the violent people? If you’ve been around antifa at all, it’s pretty clear: the inherently violent opposition (e.g., Proud Boys, who exist almost entirely to get into fights).Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chris says:

                The ability/freedom to be violent attracts violent people.

                To quote you: …people who want to violent can latch on and be violent in the name of the amorphous group.

                For people like that the AF is a support group designed to let them be violent for the thinnest of reasons and not have any sort of process to review that.Report

              • Chris in reply to Dark Matter says:

                You’ve taken my words out of context, and out of the context of antifa, but whatever.

                Black block folks have been around forever, and you can see pretty clearly when they’re violent: when there’s someone violent to be violent with.

                Proud boys were a gift to (the mindlessly violent folks in) black block in the same way that black block is a gift to proud boys.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chris says:

                Proud boys were a gift to (the mindlessly violent folks in) black block in the same way that black block is a gift to proud boys.

                First of all, saying they’re the same as the Proud Boys makes them seriously vile. Canada lists PB as a terror group. In the US they’re at best one tiny step away from something like that.

                2nd, are we supposed to think that the Black Bloc is all peaceful when they’re not dealing with PB?

                Everyone wears black to avoid criminal prosecution. The entire idea is to enable rioting and political violence.

                If we’re talking about “structural issues that determine the bad behavior of antifa”, employing tactics which seem designed to enable violence and terrorism are a problem.

                Another structural problem is because they’re such a loose group, they have to “accept” revolutionaries and the lunatic Left.Report

  2. Marchmaine says:

    [LF1] More than likely… that’s the point of an orderly withdrawal where you protect your collaborators… In the current situation? Still likely to be fine, but we’ve introduced a level of chaos that suggests we’re not 100% in control of who’s getting in/out and we also have to account for whether people are experiencing this as a betrayal/loss even as they are forced to leave… possibly exacerbated by things like [LF3]. I put it in the category of avoidable risk that we’ve introduced by our own failures. No real way around it given the circumstances [that we created], but something to possibly monitor and look to remedy as we now have additional responsibilities to the folks we’re bringing back.

    [LF3] Unpossible

    [LF4] As someone on the edge of this, I feel like the moment has come and gone… hard to explain really… but whatever interest city-folk have in food production is quickly crushed by commodity pricing.

    [LF5] We all live in a post-25th Amendment world now.

    [LF6] Of course NIL was going to become a recruiting tool… that was a given.

    [LF7] Congrats on the article, liked it… thought maybe a couple more dots you were connecting could have been a bit more specific? It had the feel of something slightly over-edited… hey, free internet advice!Report

    • Thanks. The thing about writing for other people is they get to edit to their hearts content so I hear you, but even so pretty happy with that piece for the word limit I was working with.Report

    • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

      I think on LF1 they’re probably not a security threat to us. We don’t have radicalized Muslim ghettos and they don’t seem to take hold here, given the prevalence of McJobs and the establishment clause.

      It’s the Europeans that will be screwed when a bunch of dudes with Kalishnakov experience join their Syrian, Iraqi, North African, Somali, and Turkish no-natives-allowed zones.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

        Good point… my observation is more banal in that with the loss of order we lose some confidence that we’ve got hold of the onboarding situation… not that we don’t have a vetting process at all, but now that we’ve shifted from slow withdrawal over the next several months to the largest airlift in history… there are bound to be cracks in the system.

        The second point could fit in to your comment… that is, will anyone [properly vetted] be ‘radicalized’ by friends/family left behind who may be murdered/executed/beaten/economically destroyed as a result of things like [LF3] and/or the fact that ‘the West’ simply came in a big-footed their country for 20-years then left. Don’t know, but we may be evaluating the costs down stream.Report

        • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

          I hear you. We might as well assume the bureaucracies aren’t doing a good job.

          And then best case scenario they’re the Hmong. Worst case scenario it’s San Bernardino either by them or the disgruntled relatives they bring in down the roadReport

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Marchmaine says:

      LF3 – You are not bleating sufficiently that this fact will destroy college sports.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        I’m *hoping* it fixes Notre Dame football… talk about unfair advantages.

        (and I haven’t believed in college sports for about 25 years)

        Assuming you mean LF6, ’cause I haven’t quite processed the impact on college sports for LF3 yet… still working on my hot-take on that one.Report

    • LF6 – My contrarian point of view is that the most interesting question to ask when the semi-pro part of Div I FBS is split off, is whether the Pac-12 will go along, or drop it to be a dominant force in the second tier.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Michael Cain says:

        Good question… I think it depends on whether the Schools simply become the owners of the Brand/Business for Semi-Pro sports and drop the whole ‘scholar-athlete’ nonsense. If that happens, Pac-12 goes semi-pro.

        If the schools have to divest to some sort of un-branded Semi-Pro league? There’s a chance schools will hold-out that they can ‘break’ the semi-pro league and go back to status-quo ante… hey, there’s a semi-pro league if you don’t want to play here for free.Report

        • Presumably the NIL thing will still apply, and I can see some student-athletes benefiting from that in niche sports. Eg, some world-class athletes endorsing equipment. It may not pay a lot, but damn, textbooks are expensive. The Pac-12 schools collectively do a lot of niche sports well.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Michael Cain says:

            Hmmn… I can see a collective benefit that might trickle down to a few top team sports… e.g. a star linebacker and his mates who make-up the ferocious four. Which is why I think there’s a bigger potential for Colleges themselves to pump-up the semi-pro aspect – as long as they can keep a piece as a side-business.

            But for the niche sports? Lottery cards for once in a decade (generation) stars?… I suppose if I squint I could see book money for a top fencer endorsing stuff? But even when my boys were rated I’m not sure we knew who any top fencers were.

            Then again… Notre Dame used to be [checks google] is a Fencing Powerhouse… so viva NIL!

            Did I ever tell you that as a lowly Freshman I did a Fencing PE rotation (WE STILL HAD PE) and my teacher was Yves Auriol? Back then (not sure if it’s still the case) ND was adamant that every teacher had to teach undergrads (ok, maybe not Lou Holtz)… it’s also how I stumbled into a class with Alasdair MacIntyre (and other lesser luminaries).Report

  3. LF1 – If the Afghans get vaccinated they’re less of a threat than the nativists are.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    Antifa is to the left what militias are to the right.

    Regardless of their stated aims, leaderless groups are also unaccountable to the citizens in whose name they operate, and therefore are themselves a danger.

    Freddie seems to be more bothered by the thought that their members are insincere daytrippers than the fact that these groups are intrinsically antidemocratic.Report