The Fall of Saigon and the Afghanistan Moment

Eric Medlin

History instructor. Writer. Rising star in the world of affordable housing.

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106 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    It seems to me that there are a lot of people in the brass, the foreign policy establishment, and the media who want Americans to be deeply scandalized by this in a way I don’t believe they are or will be. This post very lightly touches on it, but the biggest omission in all this sturm and drang is that the American people have been voting to get out at least since 2012, and maybe even since 2008.

    There are a lot of negative things that one can say about the voting public but on this issue I think they are a million miles ahead of the permanent state and its hangers on. Maybe it’s because their livelihoods don’t depend on believing all the obvious falsehoods and spin on Afghanistan broadcast over the last 20 years. Maybe our institutions are just that stupid. In either case Biden is still the one coming off closer to an adult. Adults don’t believe in fairy tales and have to act accordingly even when it sucks. Apparently the DoD, state dept, huge swathes of the intelligence community, related NGOs, and the weeping talking heads not only want magic and unicorns, they think they can get them. They should be mocked thoroughly for the profoundly unserious people that they are.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      the media who want Americans to be deeply scandalized by this in a way I don’t believe they are or will be.

      Yeah, this is a good point. There *MIGHT* have been a way for us to be scandalized about how we’re leaving, but it involves there being a significantly different treatment of Afghanistan over the last couple of decades.

      I mean, for any year since… let’s pick since Bin Laden’s death… the question “is it good that we’re still there?” has been tougher and tougher to answer without a large preamble about the importance of stability in a historically unstable region. The reasons we were there had less and less to do with us and more and more to do with some abstract theory about pottery barns.

      Much of the criticism of our leaving has more to do with *HOW* we left and how our leaving should have been better organized. Fewer Saigon moments. This Absolute Crapshow should have merely been a Total Crapshow.

      After two decades of hearing arguments in service to Multiculturalism and a nice soft Cultural Relativism that argued against assimilation, I’ve gotta say that *MY* ears are deaf to the new and improved Feminist arguments for our staying in Afghanistan just a little bit longer.

      Anything we need to do over there, we can do over TikTok.

      And if they start blocking stuff that they find offensive, I guess we can just shrug about that because, hey, they’re a private company and can do whatever they want now.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

        Now, of course, that said… if someone wanted to criticize Biden for how this stuff happened in practice, there’s plenty of attack surface there.

        It might be unfair that the Republicans, who got us into this mess, will be able to make hay from this… but there is hay to be made and just imagine if people were falling off of planes if Trump were president. Biden has not been covering himself in glory and, good lord, “the media” ain’t helping (and I’m not just talking about OANN, Newsmax, and the much closer to the middle-of-the-road Fox News).Report

        • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

          Biden is absolutely not above reproach here. In hindsight he should have sent troops to preemptively secure the airport and the road leading to it. However, I can see why you wouldn’t. It seems stupid now but looking at it in May you’re probably understandably worried about actions that lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy. You also have to know that if a few marines are killed in that mission the pressure to re-escalate and re-engage is going to go through the roof. Still the outcome is what it is and he owns it.

          Nevertheless I can’t help but feel we have a bunch of people guilty of the most serious sins imaginable demanding we take a guy to the wood shed for being 15 minutes late to church. It’s totally obscene.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

            Well, I’d be interested in hearing about how the CIA messed this or that up and how various policies from high up resulted in some serious Three Kings situations with the people that we pretended were “leadership” over there.

            Heck, we probably should hand those folks over to the Taliban upon condition that the trials are televised.Report

            • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

              Yea, I mean you’d certainly hope the strategy would have been different if he understood he was going to have days as opposed to months. But the CIA is itself both highly incompetent and highly self-interested. I make it a rule to never sympathize with elected officials but I have no idea how to approach that problem. Like, do you just not believe them? Assume you’re being manipulated? That seems like it wouldn’t work either.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                Remember the Russian bounty story?

                Good times.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                “But the CIA is itself both highly incompetent and highly self-interested.”

                That’s the usual assumption, but we have no way to determine if it’s true. And I don’t see how the assumption, if true, would aid us. I’d guess we need a top-to-bottom reassessment of our intelligence without any assumptions, but even that is an assumption on my part. None of us will ever be asked in any official capacity if we should do this. I actually hope we’ll never get the full details of how covert intelligence decisions are made.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Like scientists studying atoms, we can’t see inside the CIA directly, but we can observe and measure their effects.
                9-11 took us by surprise, this event took us by surprise.

                We also know that selective anonymous leaks occur, what we citizens might call “chatter” and that the chatter was that although everyone expected Kabul to fall, there wasn’t a lot of chatter about it happening as a result of secret surrender deals.

                So it’s very likely that even if the CIA had intelligence warnings of this, it wasn’t given sufficient attention and gravity to become an official briefing.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                I hear you on the quandary.
                But it’s also been pretty well documented that they (and the NSA, and other branches of the intelligence services) have lied to Congress on a number of major GWoT issues. I don’t see how we can just accept that as the way things are. Not if we’re supposed to be a democracy where the government is accountable to the people.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                I’d think that you, as a fellow Marylander, would see where I’m coming from on this. We know nothing of what our neighbors do for a living. Ditto plenty of Virginians, and a bunch of people around the country who think they do know what their neighbors do. I want to see the US make the best decisions based on the best information, and fix any intelligence-gathering problems that are discovered as they do so, but I’ll never know if that happens or not.

                We’re at one of those breakpoints in history. Something that was an “if” a few weeks ago has happened. At these times, we all dig out our favorite articles and see how we can cobble together a story showing how much insight we had. A recent breakpoint was the Arab Spring. That was a perfect example because, while the tensions what underlay it were known, the sudden turning of the situation couldn’t be predicted. Some people did, and like astrologers who predicted earthquakes, they’ll ride the unwarranted reputation train for a while. But while understanding the situation can warn you about potential breakpoints, the actual change in history is driven by individuals’ free wills.

                The Afghanistan situation may be different than that. It could be that evidence of a lot of premade decisions was missed or misunderstood. If so, I’d hope that we’d figure out what went wrong and revamp our system. But I know I’ll never know if that happened until this makes it into actual history books, and even then I won’t really know what happened.

                I’m just uncomfortable with the tone of this article and a lot of the analysis going on right now. Actually, this article is even worse, as it claims to know both what’s happening and will happen in Afghanistan and how the American public will respond to it. There are a lot of free-will decisions between here and there. Right now the last thing we should be doing is feigning certitude.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Pinky says:

                Yes, at an individual level people are aligned to do what they are assessed on.

                But that’s the perennial problem of institutions/bureaucracies forever, everywhere… keeping the alignments and incentives properly attuned is really hard… often fails… and often fails spectacularly.

                There’s nothing remotely interesting to wonder how the institutional alignment of the CIA, DoD, Dept of Education, IRS, FBI, etc. etc. is attuned with their incentives for action or inaction.

                It would take a certain sort of credulity to think we’ve got our institutions aligned in light of compounding evidence on all fronts.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                If the lesson that’s going to be applied is humility I’m all for it. But I want it applied consistently. My beef is this feels like a rules for thee but not for me. A lot of rationalization and opportunistic finger-pointing, but precious little learning. And hey maybe that is going on behind the scenes but to March’s point it’d be nice to see some evidence.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

      Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of attempts to get ‘indignation over leaving’ off the ground… but none of them are sticking for the simple reason that our ‘interests’ in being there were never socialized or accepted…. there’s no containment strategy we’re absconding and nobody believes that the War on Terror existed past 2004.

      So all the attempts on this front are thunking like lead weights dropped in an ocean of ‘stop lying to me’

      Now, the slings and arrows against Biden? Yeah, those are landing… not entirely in the ‘he botched the withdrawal’ — though that is definitely the top level cry — but in the sense of really truly wondering if Joe is up to the Job. The Job of managing the military, managing the message, managing the allies, and managing the team doing all the managing in his name. Honestly? I’m not sure he is. Four or five days ago I might have thought he was hitting his ceiling of barely adequate to the job. But that was four, five days ago.Report

      • Koz in reply to Marchmaine says:

        Honestly? I’m not sure he is.

        Not sure? I can’t see how there is any doubt about that any more.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Koz says:

          Eh, he could rally himself and/or dump some of his team that he’d put in charge of this… he can still aspire to barely adequate with the right sort of career ending actions that a man in his position is more free to do.

          Might be awkward for his VP if some of the reports are true… but should be 100% awkward for Miley and Austin and dozens more whose names I couldn’t begin to know.

          There’s always opportunity to adjust/course correct, improve… mid-flight assessments can be reassessed in light of new developments and final assessments require a certain distance for them to be final.

          I get that you’re all team red propaganda all the time… but that doesn’t impress me or move my assessments very much.Report

          • Koz in reply to Marchmaine says:

            I get that you’re all team red propaganda all the time… but that doesn’t impress me or move my assessments very much.

            Propaganda or not, it should impress you more than it does, apparently.

            Hopefully he can fire a few generals and such. I suppose he is capable of doing that. If he does, that’s probably a good thing in its own right, on balance. That’s not the same thing as a major reorganization of our defense/diplomatic/intelligence establishment, much less a successful one.

            That would be much harder to do than overseeing a relatively simple evacuation operation, and he failed at that.

            From what I can see, you’re not much of a lib as League people go. Even so, I think its difficult for you to appreciate the success of America, if America is going to be successful again, is going to happen on what looks like partisan and ideological grounds (and of course it’s going to be that much the worse for actual libs). I see more or less what’s going on, but the truth is Right propaganda so I have to hedge against that. No, that doesn’t work, that’s how we got in the problem in the first place.Report

            • North in reply to Koz says:

              I do want to note that it’s an absolute delight to have you around again to present the view from the right! Though you clearly have been out of touch if you’re misreading March as left wing.Report

              • Koz in reply to North says:

                I didn’t think that he was. I thought I made that clear in the earlier comment, but I guess not.

                One upshot of what I was trying to get at is that the GOP is going to win the 2022 election, in at least some sense of the word win. What’s not clear is whether the GOP will functionally wipe out the Democratic Party, either in 2022, 2024 or ever. That’s what’s in the best interest of America, but some people will be reluctant to do it for ego reasons.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Koz says:

                The only thing better than a “Permanent Republican Majority” is being on the cusp of one when the Democrats control the House, Senate, and White House while the Republican party is having the Populist vs. Technocrat argument (and neither side is obviously winning).

                (I do think that the Republicans will win back the House/Senate next year. But I don’t see the point of suspension changing overly.)Report

              • Koz in reply to Jaybird says:

                I do, or at least I see at least some significant probability toward that happening.

                Basically, there is a good chance the GOP will dominate American politics for the next decade or so, in the most generic way possible.

                We’re going to keep everything we’ve gained recently wrt lower middle class white voters w/o college degrees and minority groups (for that matter, prob make further gains w minority groups). And we’re going to get back the Romneyite part of the white professional upper middle class that left the GOP over Trump.

                It’s funny to me reading some of the election commentary from libs and Never Trumpers, with anxiety and complaining about a bunch of different things, when it seems to me this is what they should be worrying about.Report

              • North in reply to Koz says:

                I think it’s hard to say what the House and Senate elections will look like this far out. A lot of things aren’t predictable vis a vis the economy and other factors. The next Presidential election is even more uncertain- far too many unknowns; heck, it’s an open question who the candidates will be.

                When I look at the post Bush pattern of US politics, though, I feel somewhat sanguine as I see liberal priorities in policy gradually and haltingly advancing while stalling or slowing during Republican interregnums but certainly not being reversed only to resume advancing when the Democrats resume control. What would you say, outside of judges and tax cuts, that the the GOP or the right has accomplished in the 14 years since W. slunk off the scene? Heck, I’m not sure if one can even say with confidence what the actual embraced policies or principles of the right will be in 3 more years- the existing ideologies are so decayed and scrambled.

                I do clearly remember how decisively you thought Romney would beat Obama in ’12, though, so thank you for the reassurance.Report

              • Koz in reply to North says:

                I think it’s hard to say what the House and Senate elections will look like this far out. A lot of things aren’t predictable vis a vis the economy and other factors. The next Presidential election is even more uncertain- far too many unknowns; heck, it’s an open question who the candidates will be.

                2024 is completely open at this point, but a lot of 2022 is already baked into the cake at this point. Or to put it another way, I think you could think of 1000 different plausible outcomes in 2022, but the GOP wins the House in every one.

                As far as what the GOP has put on the board since W, it’s basically judges, the tax cut and the sequester. (Btw, the sequester is more important than the tax cut). But we only had the White House for one term, and that was Trump.

                Going forward, I expect the GOP to lock in its culture war advantages, because for right now at least the country isn’t interested in following the identity politics of the woke Left, and it’s the woke Left who have captured the activist base of the Democratic party.Report

      • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

        It ain’t great but given some of the things we’ve seen over the last 20 years I struggle to see it as an outlier even though it’s being covered as one. Our chart is going to include other illustrious decisions like disbanding the Iraqi army, giving air support to al-Nusra, and helping the Europeans overthrow Gaddafi. If we want to go back further I’d say the last unambiguously correct military decision made by the United States was stopping after throwing Saddam out of Kuwait.Report

      • JS in reply to Marchmaine says:

        “but in the sense of really truly wondering if Joe is up to the Job. ”

        Except reality seems to be that, bluntly, he’s doing what the public wants. They’ve wanted out of Afghanistan for years, possibly a decade or more.

        Which makes the media disconnect — which seems to be all ass-covering generals who wanted to stay another twenty or thirty years and pundits who don’t want to have been wrong for the last 20 years — more interesting.

        It’s weird seeing the media act like there’s a tempest, when the public is basically “We don’t care. We literally don’t. We were done with this 10 years ago. Now COVID, we’re interested in that. That’s an issue we care about”.

        So watching Team Red try to make something out of it is…interesting. But these are the guys that thought tan suits would work, so…

        not the sharpest knives.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to JS says:

          I’m already tired of the media and the doom scrolling over Afghanistan. I mean, the doom scrolling over COVID for the past 18 months has been bad enough…Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to JS says:

          I dunno… my wife who is a-political watches Joe on TV and thinks it’s mean that someone made him be president. Like he’s being punished for something; and she feels bad for him. But she’s sweet and kind that way. Other folks? Not sure he’s getting that benefit of the doubt.

          Doesn’t matter that he made a policy decision that from my view is the correct one… as it goes sideways, he’s not demonstrating that he’s the man to put it back in order. And no one on his team is helping correct that impression. His pressers? With Team Blue lobbing softballs?

          As I said above, he could course correct and/or in three weeks of tension everyone is eventually evacuated such that we’ll forget about the episode entirely. But if this breaks the other way? I’m honestly not confident that he’s up to the task. And further, I’m not confident that he’s up to the housecleaning that this will require after the fact. And yeah, I could be wrong… I just hope he doesn’t have to make any hard decisions with a limited timeframe.

          I guaranty though, if he tries to run again in 2024, people will be reminded of this, I don’t think he’s running in 2024.Report

          • JS in reply to Marchmaine says:

            I think you’re overestimating things based on a single data point.

            Looking around social media, it just….people don’t really seem to care.

            And it’s got this vibe like someone’s trying to make them care, but it’s hard to make them care when they’re in full agreement with leaving.

            Saying “Our leaving is a crapshow” doesn’t sway them, because they saw STAYING there as a crapshow. Crapshow was baked into the cake.Report

        • Koz in reply to JS says:

          Except reality seems to be that, bluntly, he’s doing what the public wants. They’ve wanted out of Afghanistan for years, possibly a decade or more.

          Yeah yeah I ain’t havin’ it. You don’t think voters or poll respondents won’t conveniently forget this or change their mind when it’s pointed out to them that we 2500 troops in Afghanistan when Biden took office and 7000 there now? I do.

          (And probably more coming since will still haven’t made a legit effort to evacuate the Americans there)Report

          • Philip H in reply to Koz says:

            so over 20,000 people evacuated since August 14 isn’t a legit effort?

            Wow.Report

            • Koz in reply to Philip H says:

              Hopefully this is true. Certainly I haven’t read anything to that effect.

              What I did read, maybe 3 or 4 days ago, was that a British officer assigned a squad of UK paratroopers to overwatch the 82nd Airborne or some other American unit, to make sure they didn’t leave without notice or to warn their own command if they did.

              Hopefully things have changed for the better since then.Report

      • KenB in reply to Marchmaine says:

        “But that was four, five days ago”

        Hah. I wonder if that’s one of those things that’s immediately recognizable on one side of the aisle and completely invisible on the other.Report

    • Koz in reply to InMD says:

      There are a lot of negative things that one can say about the voting public but on this issue I think they are a million miles ahead of the permanent state and its hangers on. Maybe it’s because their livelihoods don’t depend on believing all the obvious falsehoods and spin on Afghanistan broadcast over the last 20 years. Maybe our institutions are just that stupid. In either case Biden is still the one coming off closer to an adult. Adults don’t believe in fairy tales and have to act accordingly even when it sucks. Apparently the DoD, state dept, huge swathes of the intelligence community, related NGOs, and the weeping talking heads not only want magic and unicorns, they think they can get them.

      Yeah yeah yeah I ain’t havin’ it. This idea of cold-eyed strategic realism works for smart people. If you’re a mewling ignorant emptyhead doofus, ie Demo President Joe Biden, you’re better off just doing what the brass tells you.Report

      • InMD in reply to Koz says:

        Yes, better for the president to report to the generals.Report

        • Koz in reply to InMD says:

          Well, yeah.

          In a different world, we could have intelligent civilian leadership over military affairs and the intelligence/diplomatic apparatus directed toward prudent judgment and the national interest. In this world we have drooling incompetent Demo Joe Biden as President, so that’s probably the best we can do.Report

        • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

          No, better for the president to report to Fox and Friends.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to Koz says:

        The Brass *is* executing this.Report

        • Koz in reply to Marchmaine says:

          I’m not getting your point. Are you saying this is backdoor deep state demonstration project to demonstrate the incompetence of civilian Demo leadership? Or something else?Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Koz says:

            Pretty clearly incompetent Military Leadership and Intel first… after that the I’m open to other aspects of incompetence.Report

          • North in reply to Koz says:

            He’s saying that civilian leadership, specifically Biden, said “We’re leaving Afghanistan, make it happen.” The military said “But sir if we do this Afghanistan will collapse in somewhere between half a year and twelve months.” Then the civilian leadership said “Sounds like a bargain. We’re leaving anyhow. Make it happen.” And this was the best the brass could do executing that order.

            Whether the Military and intelligence services knew their project was a total lemon that would collapse immediately or not simply delineates the line between how much they were malevolent vs how much they were inept.Report

            • Koz in reply to North says:

              Whether the Military and intelligence services knew their project was a total lemon that would collapse immediately or not simply delineates the line between how much they were malevolent vs how much they were inept.

              I don’t know right now, exactly how much we have to choose between blaming Joe and the White House versus the brass and the intelligence community.

              I do know that, somehow, if we have to come down on one side or the other I’m with the brass. If it were Trump, I’d probably be with Trump. But it’s pretty clear that Biden is checked out way beyond anything Trump ever was. Trump was a nasty piece of work but always had plenty of his own sort of feral, cagey energy.

              There’s hospice patients with more on the ball than Joe.

              And what’s worse, now that things have gone sideways the Nice Old Man Joe is gone and we’re back to the old thin-skinned blowhard jerk. For a lot of voters, the point of voting for Joe in the first place was to get rid of Trump’s narcissism, callousness, ignorance and vulgarity. I guess Joe isn’t as gratuitously vulgar as Trump was, but I don’t think they’re going to put up with what we’ve seen over the last week.Report

              • North in reply to Koz says:

                Dude, you literally just said your opinion as to who to blame would switch depending solely on which party controlled the White House. You probably don’t want to tip your hand like that too much.

                As for the alleged inability of Joe Biden himself, on what basis do you make those allegations? Especially when you alternate between Biden being malevolent or catatonic; it’s somewhat logistically impossible to be both. I mean this is the guy who took two red states right from under the GOP’s nose last election. He doesn’t seem particularly out of it.Report

              • Koz in reply to North says:

                Dude, you literally just said your opinion as to who to blame would switch depending solely on which party controlled the White House. You probably don’t want to tip your hand like that too much

                I think you’re misunderstanding a couple of things. If a similar sort of thing was brewing under Trump, it would have been a fundamentally different circumstance and a fundamentally different event.

                Trump would never have forced the brass into the tactical weaknessness Biden did. And if things went sideways, Trump would have tantrumed and gotten us some answers instead of “nothing to see here move along” crap we’re getting now.Report

              • North in reply to Koz says:

                I think we agree about that. The only difference is I have hope that Biden may eventually actually effectually collect some heads and scalps from the blob once this crisis subsides whereas a Trump tantrum undoubtedly would have been entirely ineffectual outside of selling a lot of media.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

      This essay gives an insight into why it was such a mess. Basically it was a lack of long term vision and execution. It was like that company that re-orgs every year and the new execs have to be seen doing something, so they kill off old projects and start pet projects, and none if it will be done in a year, or five years, but that’s not important. What’s important is what they can put the item on a resume, or in a PMP (or whatever the equivalent is for the military these days).Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

      I think Matt Y said it best on twitter: “Did Biden make the right call on Afghanistan?

      We asked 27 former senior national security officials now working as defense contractors whose work there failed on every level.

      Their verdict — definitely blame Biden and not themselves. And keep the money coming!”

      That being said, the brief bit of public polling I saw on the issue was a bit inchoate but showed a solid 61 percent for leaving Afghanistan (but also showed 50 percent wanted to stay somehow).Report

      • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        That’s a silly argument. Not even an argument, really, just an implied smear. Are the former officials wrong? Doesn’t matter, the well is poisoned, we can move on.

        There’s a difference between strategy, tactics, and logistics. I’ve been to some bad concerts where the parking lot traffic moved smoothly. Even if every single former official had made nothing but mistakes, we can look at the withdrawal process and be critical of it.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    I admit to seeing how important the International Opinion ends up being.

    I remember when it was important.Report

  3. Vietnam was a slow-motion collapse. South Vietnam held out for two years after the last American troops left. ARVN, for all that it was (rightly) criticized, fought until the moment its government officially surrendered.

    One similarity: the current evacuation depends on the Taliban allowing it to continue; we hear a lot of bleating from the Right about how humiliating this is. Likewise, the helicopters leaving Saigon were allowed to by the North Vietnamese, as they were well within range of anti-aircraft fire.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

      …”The Right”, from where I am sitting, is currently saying stuff like “Good, we’re finally out of there. NO FREAKING REFUGEES.”

      Humiliation? Only the Neocons are talking about humiliation.Report

      • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

        If we’re acknowledging the final victory of the Trumpaloons and calling what was the Right since Eisenhower the Neocons, sure.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

          Mike, I’m just saying what I am seeing.

          “The right” isn’t talking about how humiliating this is for the country. The Republican base was three groups: The Hawks, The Socons, and the Fiscons. Wanting to argue that “the conservatives” only consist of Hawks is to misunderstand conservatives.

          Here’s National Review:

          Jesse Kelly, for example, is mocking Biden as being a failure and that the team responsible for leaving are failures… but he’s not talking about how humiliating this is. Instead, he’s mocking Biden and Biden’s team:

          Bill Kristol? He’s the one calling this “shameful”.

          At best, conservative responses to our withdrawal from Afghanistan could be described as “mixed”.

          But I’d say that there are two chunks of opinion but the larger chunk seems to be vaguely pleased that it’s happening with a handful of people upset that it’s a shitshow and a larger handful seeing that the fact that it’s a shitshow as an opportunity to score points against the current administration.

          The smaller chunk is the talking heads that show up on the Sunday shows.Report

    • North in reply to Mike Schilling says:

      Yeah, a lot of this hinges on this new Taliban. They’ve been camped in the mountains with missiles blowing up their buddies for 20 years. They know (both because they inked an agreement with Trump to that effect and because they have common sense) that if they start killing many Westerners there’s a significant chance that the yanks will come riding back in and they could be sitting in the mountains with missiles blowing up their buddies for another year or twenty.
      So it’s very much in their interest to try and keep a lid on everything and usher every Westerner out of the country that they possibly can. If they succeed in that project then Afghanistan will be out of the news by autumn and the neocons will weep their bitter neocon tears with none but other neocons to care.

      The big questions are:
      -whether this new Taliban is organizationally capable of enforcing that discipline and
      -how things shake out with Afghan collaborators. It’s a good bet that the ones at the airport will be evacuated eventually but for all the rest? Who knows.

      As for Joe. Personally I think he should wait until the immediate crisis passes and then slaughter a whole slew of cows across the DoD, Pentagon and Intelligence community. Like, lines of veteran civil servants with Iraq and Afghanistan on their resumes walking out the doors with boxes in hand. That would, however, be open war with the blob and they’d strike back hard with every political leak and hit job they could muster. I wouldn’t be surprised if he settles for simply taking away their sandbox and leaving them to stew.Report

  4. Saul Degraw says:

    The term I learned this week was the Blob. I don’t have an exact definition but it seems to be about the way the defense establishment and media always lurch slowly for more money and more intervention. There is a revolving door with private industry as well.

    I don’t think this is going to hurt Biden in the long run. It was the Trump admin that demanded Pakistan release Mullah Baradar and other current Taliban leaders in a hostage exchange. The talks between the Taliban and local Afghan officials and military members have been going on for a year. But the consensus of the military and foreign policy wonk set seems to be that we still needed to try harder and not question them on their industry ties and how they profit from prolonged and perpetual engagement.Report

  5. North says:

    I’m personally quite surprised and impressed by how much the media- especially the mainstream (ostensibly librul) media is in the tank with the neocons for the war. The militarists haven’t had a friendly administration since 08 but the media has been full on “withdrawing was a disaster, we never should have done it” to a shocking degree.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

      It might be bad for America but is good for ratings. The American media seems to often come in three shapes.

      1. Mainstream and “respectable” but often highly driven by a need for access, desire to hobnob with the rich and famous, if not be rich and famous themselves. This media is often carefully scripted and controlled and will call someone a national security expert even if that person’s paycheck comes from Lockheed Martin.

      2. Media that willfully scorns access but often writes in a purposefully abrasive style that appeals to a select audience but turns off more.

      3. Smaller partisan magazines like TNR, NRO, Current Affairs (now imploded and destined to make a right-wing turn in 2-3 years), Jacobin, etc.

      3a. Maybe some legacy publications like the New Yorker for the nation’s dwindling liberal arts graduate population.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to North says:

      There are a *LOT* of attacks on Biden. Subtle ones. Ones that aren’t easily defended with BUT TRUMP.

      Report

      • North in reply to Jaybird says:

        Doesn’t seem subtle but I’d definitely agree that you can’t defend it with “but Trump”. If I had to guess I’d say that the Biden admin thinks subjecting Biden and, Biden’s’ tendency to say things off the cuff or stutter, to a lot of interviews is more risky than simply enduring the media whining about not getting enough access. They’re probably right too.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to North says:

          Biden’s job approval numbers won’t matter until after the World Series kicks off in 2024.

          But here’s Biden’s currentish job approval numbers.Report

          • North in reply to Jaybird says:

            Heh, I guarantee that Biden’s job approval numbers will not budget an inch based on if he gives the media all the interviews they want. If only it were that easy.Report

            • Koz in reply to North says:

              O rely? Like the voters can’t see Joe Biden hiding out in Camp David eating ice cream and watching television and come to the appropriate conclusions?Report

              • North in reply to Koz says:

                No one outside of the right-o-sphere seems to see that. Also what does it say about the right that they’ve been whupped several times now by an allegedly catatonic politician?Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Koz says:

                eating ice cream and watching television

                And whining that no president has ever been treated so badly,

                Geez, it is always projection.Report

              • Koz in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Yeah right, this is my nephew watching Paw Patrol, except that my nephew has better information retention.

                https://twitter.com/SeanTrende/status/1427046538400915460Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Koz says:

                This s what it mean to be GOP. Not only do you sell your soul to the vile buffon, you outsource all of your opinions to him.Report

              • Koz in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                You do realize I didn’t as much as vote for Trump, right?

                Cut the crap Mike, this has nothing to do with Trump, it really doesn’t. But what’s worse is the idea that if it were about Trump, that would somehow mean some measure of mitigation or vindication for Biden and the Demos.

                It doesn’t. For all of Trump’s faults there is no way we’d be dealing with this level of incompetence if Trump were in office.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Koz says:

                True., the incompetence would be much worse. But he’d insist at the top of his lungs everything was fine, and you and the rest of his claque would sign on to it. Also, there’s be no visas for Afghans, because Stephen Miller would still be in power.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                This guy “could make an argument”…

                Could he make an argument of what we should have done differently?

                I mean, if he is into “making arguments” and all.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “Biden demonstrates that we live in the best of all possible worlds” is one of the things that Voltaire hasn’t stopped being good for yet!

                Anyway, I would have had fewer messaging blunders stateside (do you need examples of them?).

                If you want to talk logistics, I suspect that we could argue over the equipment (including fully automatic weapons and ammo!) that has been captured by the Taliban.

                We might also be able to haggle over whether it’d have been easier to transport 5000 people last month than over the last week.

                But that’s just off the top of my head and my knowledge of Afghanistan is no greater than a random Walmart assistant manager’s.

                (Now for the record: I don’t blame Biden necessarily for this particular crapshow. I blame the people who have been lying to multiple presidents over the last decade or more. I suppose another thing that we can come back to is whether enough heads rolled for those intelligence failures. But that’ll be a year or so.)Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yeah head rolling under a sensible administration would occur a good bit later than now so we’re jumping the gun on assuming any heads won’t roll. That said pessimism is warranted.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                So walk us through how this would work.

                The administration sends out a public announcement that it has secret information that the Afghan forces will surrender the entire country without a shot, allowing the Taliban to be in downtown Kabul as fast as they can drive.

                So therefore all you Americans and Afghan nationals better hurry and evacuate pronto.

                Oh, and also, we would give the Taliban strict orders not to seize the equipment and weaponry held by the Afghan Army, the one which was already planning to turn over all the equipment it as holding.

                Is this the gist of it?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So walk us through how this would work.

                Nah.

                I can just point out the American equipment that the Taliban now owns that didn’t belong to them a month ago and say “yeah, that.”

                And you can pull out Doctor Pangloss.

                And I can say “Nah.”Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

                I have seen no evidence that the crapshow that began when we started to evacuate people this month wouldn’t have started last month if we began to evaluate people then. What else changed?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Because “evacuation of civvies” and “evacuation of military” are two different things.

                That’s my evidence.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

                The Taliban are fine with Americans being evacuated. They want us all gone. The hard part is evaculating Afghans that they consider traitors, and that would be the hard part whenever it started.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird says:

                Mike and Chip have a point. The weapons we’re talking about the Taliban capturing belonged to the Afghanistan military. It’s not like we just left them in crates. So either Biden would have given orders to strip the weapons from the Afghan military of arms (which immediately precipitates panic, desertion and collapse) or he leaves them to be captured when they surrender. To be honest it looks like the only way where those weapons wouldn’t have ended up abandoned was if they hadn’t been given to the Afghani military in the first place. Last I checked the Biden admin hasn’t perfected time travel.

                Matt Y. has also pointed out in his various musings that in hindsight we know that any kind of mass evacuation would have precipitated the panic and collapse that ended up ensuing only faster and earlier with Biden being even more plausibly blamed for causing said collapse.

                Logistically and logically there’re problems with some of the most fierce media critiques.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

                No one would have left Afghanistan without showing a receipt.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Koz says:

                For all of Trump’s faults there is no way we’d be dealing with this level of incompetence if Trump were in office.

                This is one of the more befuddling statements I’ve read in my many years commenting on this site.

                Not sure what you’re trying to prove with that Twitter picture. It’s a guy having a Zoom meeting.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz says:

                For all of Trump’s faults there is no way we’d be dealing with this level of incompetence if Trump were in office.

                Trump would have had all the same military brass, and most of the same professional intel community. Sure, he’d have had a different DNI and different CI Director, but below that level its all career folks who move administration to administration. And we all know his White House was, at best, dysfunctional. We also know he was the guy who managed to bankrupt a casino.

                I do find it oddly funny that you were not a Trump voter but seem to think he’d have been better at this.Report

              • Koz in reply to Philip H says:

                I do find it oddly funny that you were not a Trump voter but seem to think he’d have been better at this.

                Because Trump could easily imagine the downside risk of what’s happened, and as such would have either done the evacuation right, or be outmaneuvered in WH office politics by the brass and keep some troops there, as it happened while he was President.

                In no case would we have this public spectacle of abandonment.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Koz says:

                we are talking about the same guy who got beautiful love letters from North Korea while they were violating prior agreements left and right? The guy who refused to enforce sanctions against Russia that Congress passed? The guy who negotiated the future of Afghanistan with the Taliban, without include the actual, US Supported Afghan government? That guy?

                Cause from where I sit he had no clue what the down side risks would be. Hell, he had no clue what the down side risk of a botched COVID response would be.Report

              • Koz in reply to Philip H says:

                we are talking about the same guy who got beautiful love letters from North Korea while they were violating prior agreements left and right?

                Yeah, him. Donald Trump dealing with North Korea is a perfect example. Trump’s correspondence with Kim Jung Un shows a level of strategic thinking way beyond what anything Biden is capable of. It may yet work, in that North Korea, ie that NK is China’s problem not ours. It hasn’t yet, but it is heading that way.

                https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/13/north-korea-trump-kim-jong-un-love-letters-diplomacy-nuclear-talks/

                Biden is just like, “fcuk the airport, get the troops out of Afghanistan, YOLO baby”Report

            • Jaybird in reply to North says:

              True, but their spin of his actions could improve.

              And I don’t know if the media matters, but I could see it mattering, a little, at the margins.

              Same for Afghanistan.Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to North says:

          How many of Trump’s 50 were with a single, friendly outlet?Report

      • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

        I loved him with Dire Straits.Report

    • Pinky in reply to North says:

      I’ve heard a lot of “withdrawing was a disaster”. I have yet to hear “we never should have done it”.Report

      • North in reply to Pinky says:

        I read it as strongly implied in a lot of the articles. Especially the ones about the plight of the Afghan women we’re leaving behind. Also they’re booking neocon Afghan boosters vs people pushing withdrawal at a, like, 10 to one ratio.Report

    • Pinky in reply to North says:

      Just for clarity, you do realize that if you yell at someone until he stops speaking, it doesn’t mean that his idea has disappeared, right? As I said, I haven’t seen a return of the hawks, but all these debates we have are ongoing. Every one of them. And also, you realize that the press can mention something without endorsing it? The mainstream press hasn’t bothered covering positions contrary to their beliefs in a while, but that’s a normal part of journalism. Maybe I’m being too hard on you, but if the left is forgetting either of those things, the pendulum swing is going to stun you.Report

      • North in reply to Pinky says:

        Certainly, nor am I suggesting anyone would be wise to do so. I’m not complaining about the press airing pro-hawk positions; I’m more fascinated by the ostensibly left wing media being, in of itself, so pro war themselves. The number of old neocon figures who’re getting into talking head positions as “experts” is quite striking, especially when compared to the number of anti-war figures who’re getting similar hearings. Like I said, it’s not surprising to see on the right wing media but it also is pervasive across the mainstream media which is what is so striking about it.

        Mostly, I think, it just demonstrates that the media in of itself, has its own interests that it follows regardless of its ostensible ideological orientation. Money comes first which in the media means you must pursue attention. Drama and conflict draw attention. War is good for business. If it bleeds it leads. Etc.Report

        • Pinky in reply to North says:

          As I said, I haven’t seen this myself, but if I were a journalist I’d want to talk to people who knew something about our military experiences in Afghanistan. You’re just not going to find that expertise among anti-war activists, for example.

          Also, I’m not 100% sure you’re being consistent on this. You’ve said that the press is being incredibly pro-war, but also that the articles only implied it. If I’m pro-something I’m not just going to imply it.Report

          • North in reply to Pinky says:

            They’re now outright saying it but the people who they’re magnifying the voices of are predominantly opponents of withdrawal. You can find neocons absolutely on every media arm right down to allegedly nakedly left wing ones like MSNBC. If you’re going for expertise, inviting the ideologues who’ve been pretty much wrong for two decades and unambiguously wrong for at least twelve years is an odd way to do it.

            And I want to emphasize this merely about criticizing the problems that the execution of withdrawal have presented (who on earth can straight facedly claim there haven’t been a lot of problems?) but rather the overall makeup of talking heads they have

            An example of some of the narrative I’ve heard about the imbalance can be found here:
            https://popular.info/p/the-medias-systemic-failure-on-afghanistan
            https://popular.info/p/where-are-the-anti-war-voicesReport

          • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

            These articles don’t fortify your position that the press is being pro-war. The first two list some of the hawks who have been interviewed lately. The third one agrees with your opinions, but doesn’t cite evidence in support of them. I’m going to assume that in your 5:15 pm comment you meant to write “they’re not outright saying it”. And it does appear they’re not.

            To state this clearly: if you are arguing that the press has interviewed too many people who had supported the war in Afghanistan, that’s a subjective opinion. If you are arguing that the press is supporting a pro-war position you haven’t presented any proof of it.Report

            • North in reply to Pinky says:

              Then we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think they’re slanting their coverage and opinion talking heads distinctly in the direction against disengagement from Afghanistan and I’m, obviously, not the only one. You evidently don’t?Report

  6. Chip Daniels says:

    What I find interesting is that even after 20 years, we Americans still know almost nothing about the YTaliban.

    I don’t recall any interviews with them, much discussion of their history or what they think or believe in. I haven’t seen any profiles of their leaders, or even any discussion of what their leadership structure even consists of.

    Like I mentioned the other day, they are just shadows cast on a wall, boogeymen who will murder us in our beds if we don’t behave.

    And I do blame the media outlets like MYT and WaPo and the cable news for this. They tend to just go with whoever provides the easiest access, and of course the Pentagon and military contractors are all too happy to oblige and give them that sense of self-importance of sitting choppers cruising over the landscape, making any young reporter feel like they are in a Tom Clancy novel.Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    Josh Marshall has a good piece on why defense contractors (no duh) and legacy media are all for piling on Biden for a messy but successful withdrawal for Afghanistan rather than continuing twenty years of failed policy: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-fall-of-kabul-washington-and-the-guys-at-the-fancy-magazines

    “What we see in so many reactions, claims of disgrace and betrayal are no more than people who have been deeply bought into these endeavors suddenly forced to confront how much of it was simply an illusion. ‘There had to have been a better way’ is no more than monumental deflection, whatever mistakes or poor planning were involved. Nowhere has this been more blindingly clear than in the Capital’s news-driving email newsletters and the eager voices of the same folks on Twitter, ramping themselves up into escalating paroxysms of outrage and doom casting over the ugly scenes emerging on viral videos all the while overlooking their support for the policies that made the events inevitable. The intensity of the reaction, the need to stay tethered to the imagery of Sunday and Monday, is a perfect measure of the shock of being forced to confront the reality of the situation in real time.”Report