Of Mottes, and Baileys, and Critical Race Theory
Critical Race Theory is the current Scissor statement threatening to cut everything in half.
I was speaking with a friend about the CRT drama and he asked me “so what the heck is it?” and explained that one of the people he researched while looking around said something to the effect of “I have a PhD in this topic and even I have trouble explaining what CRT is!”
I wasn’t particularly surprised that he said this because, heck, I’ve seen similar when reading about Critical Race Theory. Even Ibram X. Kendi says as much:
Funny passage from Ibram Kendi’s book where he admits that he struggles to explain his ideas to working people from minority backgrounds because they haven’t been indoctrinated thoroughly enough pic.twitter.com/42pdm7xBBs
— Zaid Jilani (@ZaidJilani) June 16, 2021
I struggle to concretely explain what ‘institutional racism’ means to the Middle Eastern small businessman, the Black service worker, the White teacher, the Latinx nurse, the Asians factory worker, and the Native store clerk who do not take the courses on racism, do not read the books on racism, do not go to the lectures on racism, do not watch the specials on racism, do not listen to the podcasts on racism, do not attend the rallies against racism.
Kendi sees this as a limitation of the people rather than a limitation of the theory, for some reason.
I asked my friend “If CRT is something that even PhDs in the field have trouble explaining, surely it wouldn’t be that much of a problem banning it being taught to 3rd graders.” I mean, if it’s something that you can’t explain to a grownup, how much tougher would it be to explain to a 9 year old?
My friend, of course, knitted his brow. He knew that something was up. There was a smearing going on. There’s some stuff in CRT that is really weird and esoteric and even PhDs can’t explain it well. There’s some stuff in there that 3rd Graders can learn to the point where he intrinsically pushed back against the idea of it not being taught to children.
But what *IS* it?
Well… that’s where it gets complicated. It’s a bunch of stuff. As terms go, it’s one that has ballooned in popularity over the last year or so. Here’s a Google Trends on “Critical Race Theory”:
Here’s a Google Trends on “CRT”:
Something has jumped since August of last year.
Now, to be fair, “CRT” also stands for:
Cathode Ray Tube
Cardiac Resynchronization Therapy
Chinese Remainder Theorem
Child Resource Team
Community Resource Team
Crystal Resolution Technology
C Run Time
Computer Readout Time
Computer Remote Terminal
Copyright Royalty Tribunal
Contingency Response Team
Counter Rotating Tines
Computer Rehabilitation Training
Calculus Readiness Test
Given the various spikes in the various months, I want to say that it is probably referring to “Calculus Readiness Test” (despite my sentimental inclination to say “Cathode Ray Tube”) during the various spikes and dips prior to 2019… but, the stuff after? The stuff that maps with Critical Race Theory? I’m guessing that north of 90% of that is part of the trend.
SO WHAT THE HECK IS CRITICAL RACE THEORY?
I told my friend that, when people say “Critical Race Theory”, they’re probably referring to either a motte or a bailey. That is to say, they’re either referring to something that no reasonable person could reasonably disagree with *OR* they’re talking about stuff that is downright nuts and only a true believer could possibly say with a straight face. If they’re being slippery, they’ll be talking about something that is downright nuts and only a true believer could possibly say with a straight face… and then, when called on it, retreat back into the something that no reasonable person could reasonably disagree with.
For example, Critical Race Theory can refer to a legal theory that kicked off in the 1970’s. Here’s from Wikipedia:
It is an academic discipline composed of civil-rights scholars in the United States who seek to critically examine the law to show, first, that it maintains white supremacy, white power, and enforces societal or structural racism; and, second, that transforming the relationship between law and racial power, and also achieving racial emancipation and anti-subordination more broadly, is possible.
If you’ve ever heard Anatole France’s famous line “In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread,” and can, in your head, apply it to race? That’s the strong argument for Critical Race Theory.
Should children be taught that there is a deep inequity when it comes to the relationship between law and power and white people and the relationship between law and power and Black people? Heck yeah, they should!
One of Ibram X. Kendi’s most trenchant criticisms is that it is not enough to merely not be racist. You have to be actively anti-racist. You shouldn’t merely just not be part of the problem… you have to actively be trying to change things to make things better for the oppressed. It’s not enough to feel things (or not feel them). You have to actually put your effort into the system! And that means more than merely voting for the person who makes you feel things (or not feel them).
Okay. That’s the motte. What’s the bailey?
Here’s a line from Richard Delgado’s 2001 book “Critical Race Theory: An Introduction“:
Unlike traditional civil rights, which embraces incrementalism and step-by-step progress, critical race theory questions the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law.
Wait, Enlightenment rationalism? Legal reasoning? Equality theory? Neutral principles of constitutional law? The very foundations of the liberal order? That’s a heck of a lot different than teaching that America has a pretty racist past that it hasn’t ever reckoned with.
On top of that, Critical Race Theory has grown and has been pop-ified in the decades since this obscure legal theory came about. Since then, it has become part of a pop phenomenon that consists of (at least) Ibram X. Kendi’s work (in such books as How to Be an Antiracist) and Robin DiAngelo’s work (such as White Fragility). In addition, stuff like the NYT’s 1619 Project tends to be lumped into this phenomenon as well. When you hear stories about Corporate Antiracist training, odds are that they’re going to have slides that quote Kendi or DiAngelo. The 1619 Project was explicitly intended to be part of a school’s American History curriculum.
As such, in practice, the training and educating veers away from the stuff that absolutely everybody agrees with and, thanks to its modern popification, wanders into stuff that tends to embarrass Critical Race Theory when brought to light. In general, this results in training slides being rewritten or pulled entirely.
You may have heard of the whole “math is racist” thing. John McWhorter was furious when he saw a bunch of slides titled “A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction Dismantling Racism in Mathematics Instruction“.
You can see screenshots of the original slides here and the thing I want to draw your eyes to is the part on the original slide that says:
White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when…
Students are required to “show their work.”
After this slide got publicized, the Equitable Math folks took McWhorter’s criticism to heart and you can see what the slide looks like now on page 55:
White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when…
Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways.
That sort of thing keeps happening. People make statements out in the bailey and they get noticed… at which point the statements run quickly back into the motte.
There was another incident where the National Museum of African American History & Culture released a bunch of slides that included a handful of discussion of “Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness and White Culture” and…
Well, you can look at one of the slides here:
Well, once the slides were heavily publicized, they got pulled and the National Museum of African American History & Culture issued an apology.
That’s something that keeps happening. The wacky assertions are made, then they are noticed by “bad” people who then publicize these statements, then those statements are pulled. There was an incident where Disney had its antiracist portal publicized and then it quietly removed it. There was an incident where Coca-Cola had antiracist training based on Robin DiAngelo’s work publicized and then Coke quietly removed it.
Critical Race Theory, out in the bailey, has resulted multiple times in slides being changed, training being pulled, and apologies offered. It’s not merely the strong argument given in earnest about the difference in how white criminals are arrested and how black innocents are treated.
What might be the wackiest incident that made it all the way to the edge of the bailey was the NYC Community Education Council for Manhattan District 2 video where one of the concerned attendees complained about one of the white male attendees holding an African-American toddler in his lap at one point during the meeting:
It hurts people when they see a white man bouncing a brown baby on their lap and they don’t know the context! That is harmful! That makes people cry. It makes people log out of our meetings. They don’t come here. They don’t come to our meetings. And they give me a hard time. Because I’m not vocal enough. And I’m not trying to be a martyr. I am trying to illustrate to you that you think I’m a social-justice warrior. And you think I’m being patronizing. And I’m getting pressure for not being enough of an advocate. I take that to heart. That hurts me. And I have to learn how to be a better white person. Read a book. Read Ibram Kendi. Read How to Talk to White People. It is not my job to educate you. You’re an educated white male. You can read a book. And you can learn about yourself.
In practice, Critical Race Theory also manifests…well, like that.
I suppose we could “no true scotsman” the surely well-intentioned woman and explain that she wasn’t doing *TRUE* Critical Race Theory, but she’s invoking Ibram X. Kendi and telling others to educate themselves.
People are, seriously, arguing that the stuff happening out in the bailey is not “real” CRT, it’s merely diversity and inclusion! It’s pedagogy! But it’s not CRT! CRT is this one particular legal theory that merely questions the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law. AND IT IS NOTHING ELSE.
But that’s kind of disingenuous when we see these arguments that come out and question the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law.
So, all that to say, when it comes to “What is Critical Race Theory”…what is it?
Is it an obscure set of legal theories from the 1970s that nobody knew about until Tucker Carlson started bloviating about it only this last year?
Is it a progressive woman complaining about a white man bouncing a brown baby on his lap without providing the necessary context and telling others to educate themselves by reading Ibram X. Kendi and Robin DiAngelo?
Well, it’s both. Both things fall under the umbrella of Critical Theory.
Critical Race Theory, it seems to me, is a subset of Critical Theory. You’ve heard of Critical Theory. You’ve heard of Critical Feminist Theory, right? You’ve heard of Critical Gender Theory, right?
Well, Critical Race Theory is just a special corner of Critical Theory and it’s just dealing with race this time.
And there are parts of it that are important and can be easily summarized and taught to 3rd graders. The stuff about racism being bad. The stuff about how America has never truly reckoned with its racist past. And there are parts of it that are obviously upwardly mobile urban white progressives crab bucketing and trying to outdo each other without any care whatsoever about helping or changing anything for any person that is not already part of their little bourgeois circle.
It manifests as both things.
And the people who want to defend it want to pretend that it’s nothing more than teaching children about the wickedness of slavery and Jim Crow and, with wide-eyed innocence, ask how anyone could ever oppose such a thing.
And the people who want to attack it want to pretend that all it is is explaining to black math students that showing your work is racist.
I asked him if he now had a better idea of what Critical Race Theory was. He grimaced and said “Yeah.”
So CRT isn’t any one thing. It’s assholes whining about bouncing a baby and smart observations about how blacks are treated differently then whites.
CRT sounds incredibly easy to describe. It’s an academic theory viewed as the boogieman who you should live in terror of and it’s also an accurate description of things like Jim crow, red lining and how cops treat blacks far worse then whites( or fill in 100 examples here). That took about one floor of an elevator ride.
So do you want to live in abject terror of Marxism communism CRT blah blah blah or do you want to make life better for people.
I don’t know anything about kendi but he seems like a terrible communicator if he didn’t have a handy example of institutional racism handy.Report
If you would like to learn more about Kendi, you can visit his website here. I’ve taken the liberty of putting the link directly on his collection of essays that have appeared in The Atlantic, GQ, Time, and the New York Times.
Don’t feel like his stuff will be too esoteric. His essays are exceptionally accessible.Report
The important thing about this motte and bailey thing (which I’m going to call “extreme” and “common-sense” because I can’t remember your lingo) is how easy it is to slip from one to the other, correct? Right wing activists can show up at a school board meeting and rail against the extreme part, as in “I don’t want my third grader being taught that he’s personally responsible for slavery!” but then once the bans go into effect they effectively silence the common-sense part where virtually any of discussion of race and oppression is verboten because it might violate the ban on teaching Critical Race Theory.
See also Christopher Rufo in the New Yorker giddy over how CRT can be meant to stand for everything that people don’t like or trust about liberals. It doesn’t matter what it means, it matters what it can be meant to stand for.Report
It’s not just my lingo! Nicholas Shackel came up with it back in 2005.
It’s got a page in the Wikipedia and everything.
Right wing activists can show up at a school board meeting and rail against the extreme part, as in “I don’t want my third grader being taught that he’s personally responsible for slavery!” but then once the bans go into effect they effectively silence the common-sense part where virtually any of discussion of race and oppression is verboten because it might violate the ban on teaching Critical Race Theory.
Oh, yeah. This is definitely something that is happening. It’s not even close to something that is limited to only one of presumably two sides.Report
Delgado isn’t the bailey. He’s the motte. His Critical Race Theory: An Introduction is the book CRT’s defenders tell you to read to find out what CRT is really about.
I’ve been a bit busy, so I’m only halfway though right now, but what I’ve learned so far is that CRT is…many of the things I’ve been assured that CRT is not. Also, you know how it’s not taught in primary and secondary schools? The third edition contains an anecdote about an earlier edition being used in a high school course.
It’s like none of the people telling me to read it have actually read it themselves.Report
On one level, I think it’s like e e cummings.
The original Critical Race Theory was clear and concise and unambiguously good and a joy, for everybody!, to read.
But then you got a bunch of people saying “I can do that!” and then, suddenly, they’re explaining that Black People Drive Like This But White People Drive Like This.Report
I think my understanding of Critical Theory is best summarized by Sting:
Logic and science and mathematics can be tools of oppression, just as they can be tools of liberation or advancement. If you are being oppressed and mathematics is being used (this has happened!) to advance that oppression, of course you’re going to toss it out.
My position though, is that you must recognize the things that protect you. The opposition is powerful, that’s why they are doing this, for reasons of power. So if a regime where there are fewer rules, that will apply to them too. This is why I’m not a “burn it all down” guy. Why I’m not in favor of rejecting Enlightenment values. But yeah, the powerful have learned to game this stuff really well.Report
I keep being struck by how the stuff that is actually good and useful is the stuff that is getting ignored by the people crab bucketing.Report
Ummm, WTF?! Provide what context? Maybe the kid is his, or his grandchild, or maybe he’s just babysitting, whatever. It’s none of anyone’s business what the context is.
As to the larger point of the post, yeah, I do get the feeling it’s a lot of Motte & Bailey stuff.Report
If you have headphones or are in a place where you can safely listen to people speaking with high emotion, I recommend pressing play on the youtube video.
It’s queued up to the right moment and everything.Report
I listened to it when it was first publicized and found it highly disturbing.Report
OMG Those people are nuts!Report
Also, the meeting host should have muted everybody and enforced order, that was devolving into a mess.Report
I think this is solid on the philosophical, undergrad level issues but misses the ‘rubber meets the road’ issues which is what I think 90% of the fuss is about. Examples:
-is relieving children of the burden to show their work on long division helping or hurting the mastery of long division?
-is relieving children of a requirement to spell properly and use proper grammar helping or hurting their literacy and ability to communicate?
-is rationalizing away standards of performance and conduct helping or hurting the pedagogical environment?
Similar questions abound about the work space, and it’s why what used to be called the reality based community (maybe we can change it to the results based community) needs to keep rejecting it wherever it shows up outside of higher ed.Report
Anecdotally I’d say its hurting, in as much as elementary teachers don’t want to grok a kids whose math process gets the actually numerically correct answer but not through the right order of operations. React to a kid that way enough and they will indeed not want to do the work.Report
A kid should be able to show their work, in as much as they should be able to show the process by which the answer was arrived at. This is important not just for the student, but also for the teacher, since it can help them identify a child using a process that may work in the specific, but fails as a more generally applicable approach.
Of course, all of this assumes that the math teacher in question has a broad understanding of the pedagogy of mathematics and the various pathways by which a student can arrive at an answer.
So it’s not so much that math is racist (math is about as racist as a hydrogen atom), but how we train math teachers and employ them very much is.Report
Or it means that the student doesn’t actually understand the concept.Report
If there’s only one way to arrive at a mathematical answer, then sure. But there is often more then one path, even in simple long division. My daughter often turns in work that gets to the correct answer numerically, but her path – shown in her work – is not always the one the teachers expects. She is no longer marked off for that, but it hasn’t been easy convincing the teachers to let go.Report
This.
I have an alarm app on my phone for the mornings. It rings, and to shut it off, I have to answer 2 simple arithmetic problems, e.g.:
(7 * 3) – 8 = 13
Now the straight forward path is (7 * 3) = 21; 21 – 8 = 13
But at 0500, when I am still half asleep, I’ll know 7*3=21, because the multiplication table was drilled into my head in grade school, but that -8… yeah, that’ll screw me up, don’t ask me why, it’s 0500.
So I work the problem I know, 11-8=3. Why do I know that answer, but not 21-8=13? No clue, but I do, so I strip off the extra 10 (21-10=11), do the problem I know, and add the ten back on, so my final process looks like this:
(7 * 3) – 8 => 21 – 8 => 10 + (11 – 8) => 10 + 3 = 13
I could also do:
(7 * 3) – 8 => (7 * 2) – (8 – 7) => 14 – 1 = 13
And I am sure I can dream up a few other ways to work that problem that aren’t straight forward. And of course, this is simple arithmetic. More complex math often offers a greater variety of pathways to get the answer, some of which are problematic specialized shortcuts, and some that are valid generalized ways of doing the work.
The real problem is teachers who can only parse one or two workflows, and consider all the rest suspect.Report
“Today in class we learned how to pick things up. Now that you know this, pick up the chair and move it across the room.”
Kid: (slides chair across the floor)
“Okay, well, the chair is across the room, but what we wanted was for you do it by picking the chair up. That was actually part of the instructions, and you already knew how to move the chair; what we want to learn here is that picking things up is a useful skill, one that applies to a lot more things than chairs.”
Parent: “How dare you mark my child’s answer wrong! The chair’s across the room, isn’t it? Why do you care so much about how that happened? You’re just MAD that the kid didn’t do it YOUR WAY, because you’re an authoritarian liberal jerk!”Report
Maybe she’s a super math genius like Oscar demonstrates himself to be in his response. Which is awesome, and maybe there’s a case to be made for some discretion in those circumstances. It sounds like you have successfully done that.
But that’s not what we’re talking about nor is it what I said, and I think you know that. The concern is the elimination of standards.Report
Elimination of standards is no worse or better then the forced adherence to non-sensical standards.Report
That kinda depends on the standard being eliminated, now doesn’t it? I’ve seen some pretty ‘Woo’ crap coming out of the whole “Math is racist camp” that, if we adopted any of it, would result in science and engineer going to hot places in wicker carriers. The ideas ignore that math involves rigorous logic, and even when the math is developed by other cultures that are not Western White, the rigor is still there, even if the path it takes is different.
The structure of the universe is not racist.
That said, if I ignore the ‘Woo’ and look at the concern from a higher level, what we see is (IMHO) a bunch of people who see certain minorities struggling to learn math and wondering why and coming to a conclusion that is narrowed by their own biases.
Math is not racist. But how we teach Math very much can be. The assumptions that are made in the pedagogy and the development of the curriculum can be very racist, often unintentionally so, but racist all the same.
I’ve commented many times that my brain processes math visually, not analytically. The curriculum when I was in middle and high school, however, was centered almost completely on teaching math analytically, and it left me struggling. This wasn’t an intentional slight, it’s just that such curriculum are developed by people who think of math analytically and just never really consider that someone else processes it differently. So if the standards assume there is only one path to the correct answer, and other paths are invalid, then the standards are wrong and need to be, if not eliminated, then expanded upon.
Relatedly, one of the issues I’ve had with the way elementary school kids are being taught math* is the requirement that they all master every numeracy concept they are being taught. That strikes me as a great way to discourage kids by going too far the other direction. You introduce the concepts, have the kids try them out, but let them decide which ones make the most sense to them and use those to solve the problems. Demanding that they solve certain problems in certain ways just causes the same erosion of confidence I had.
And this is where the other aspect of structural racism plays into it. A math teacher needs to be comfortable with Math themselves. Math should be taught by specialists, much like Art or Music are (at least, they are in my kids school). Teachers who are very comfortable with math themselves, and who have specific training on how to teach it to a wide range of brains.
But TTBOMK, we don’t require this. Anyone with a teaching qualification can teach math in K-12, which means folks not comfortable with math themselves will teach math to kids not comfortable with math, and the teachers will stick to the book, and be largely unable to employ the kind of flexibility that allows them to recognize and evaluate the alternate paths that are valid.
Obviously, some schools do employ specialists, but those schools in poorer neighborhoods… I’m betting not, and certainly not in the lower grades, where the foundations of competency and confidence are developed.Report
If it’s a pedagogical decision based on an expertise in the best way to educate children then it’s whatever. I may not necessarily agree but I’m not losing sleep over it. That’s not what we’re talking about.Report
Cancer just keeps on growing.
Before OWS, there were 8 articles a year on racism in Mainstream Publications.
Afterwards, the number sprang to about 200 per year, and has kept up in a drumbeat ever since.
This is by design, and not coincidence.
Discussing ANYTHING that speaks of identity politics is playing someone else’s game, and THEY’RE CHEATING.Report
Compare and contrast:
The New Republic on CRT in 1996
The New Republic on CRT in 2021.Report
Any discussion of “Why the sudden spike in CRT” needs to acknowledge Chris Rufo’s open admission that he is deliberately using CRT as a stand-in for white anxiety and a wedge issue in the culture war, and the Fox/ OAN/ Sinclair media outlets happily pushing it night after night.
Having gotten that out of the way, I think that forcing Americans to talk about race, even in the context of a culture war aspect, is probably a good thing since racism is kind of like Fight Club, where the first rule of racism is not to speak about racism.Report
No, Rufo is a lagging indicator.
The initial spike has to do with the Chris Wallace question at the Presidential debate where the “Vought Memo(s)” ending a certain sort of Diversity Training was brought up. Original memo was Sept 4 (iirc) and this one clarifies the original.
The nicest way to put it might be that there are people attempting to make some money by over-extending what the theories suggest/support… but the ‘thing’ is happening and there are more examples than people can count. This isn’t Rufo.
This is one of those things where taking the “L” on the Bailey would be smarter than trying to suggest that someone else is making your team make errors they are making.
Rufo, if anything, is capitalizing on the double-down. Don’t double down.Report
Vought Memo link isn’t working for me.Report
https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/omb-sept-28-memo-on-diversity-training/ac10c54a-8912-4c5e-b017-fc46ec06aadf/Report
I agree with this. I think that we, once again, had a supersaturated solution.
The term “Critical Race Theory” was a seed crystal. Once it entered the solution, WHAMMO. Rock candy.
People are blaming the first guy to notice the seed crystal and latch onto it instead of wrestling with the whole “supersaturated solution” thing.Report
Are we just supposed to ignore the way that the entire right wing media sphere has pushed this issue relentlessly, night after night after night, then followed by Republican legislators jumping on the hysteria?
I mean, you aren’t trying to suggest this was some organic viral thing, are you?Report
I mean, you aren’t trying to suggest this was some organic viral thing, are you?
I think that it depends on when DEI training started entering the picture, honestly.
Do we have a timeline for Robin DiAngelo’s book, or the 1619 Project, and then Chris Rufo’s statement?
Because if the first two happened before the last one, I think that we have ourselves an example of Republicans Pouncing instead of an example of them making stuff up.Report
“Are we just supposed to ignore the way that the entire right wing media sphere has pushed this issue relentlessly, night after night after night, then followed by Republican legislators jumping on the hysteria?”
Yes. I mean hasn’t that been made clear?
We have to pretend this is a real thing, being pushed by real, honest, god-fearing Americans, and is a real problem.
We cannot possibly acknowledge this is just a cynical right-wing push to create a culture war issue they think will help turnout.
If we did that, well — goodness, that’d be boring, right? Talking about what people are actually doing and how it’s affecting the world.
Also it’d be unfair. Both sides wouldn’t be the same, divided on a hot-topic issue, which is ALSO boring.
Plus, what we would post random twitter comments about and pretend it’s a BIG SERIOUS ISSUE IN REAL LIFE?Report
JS,
THIS.
Yes, they’re playing you. Yes, they’re playing the republicans too.
Shut up about the goddamn identity politics.
It don’t matter none.
Ain’t nothing you gonna do is gonna prevent nothin’.
Except maybe not listening to the media so much.
Thinkin’ before you label someone.
Listenin’ to a man like Trump, and understanding why the smartest and the dumbest folks in our country voted for him.Report
Stop making wild pitches and they will stop taking bases.Report
Like the videos of hysterical parents demanding bodycameras to make sure that teachers aren’t teaching CRT? Those sorts of wild pitches?
At the rate we’re going, I’d say we are three months away from child therapists coaching children with recovered memories by saying “Show me on the doll where Critical Race Theory touched you…”Report
Sure, we can also play dumb while Republicans exploit unforced errors. Seems like a great idea.Report
I get denouncing how the right exploits, exaggerates and grifts off CRT. Totally sympathize. But there’s a serious element of “if it weren’t for what the right is doing then there’d be no problem” in your protestations and that’s whistling past the graveyard.Report
2,113 words (mostly your own) to say the CRT can be Motte OR Bailey depending on who is dealing with it and how they deal with it. That’s a lot of words for a relatively simple reveal.
And yet I still have no idea where you come down on whether 1) it should be seen either way; 2) how you see it; 3) what its impact on modern political discourse on race actually is.
Because right now its being slung like so much cow pucky by a political party intent on reserving power to white conservative allegedly Christian men. That has real world implications.Report
The Académie Française is a French council tasked with being the official council in charge of the French Language. Like, they’re the ones in charge of whether or not a word is Officially French, or not.
This comes up occasionally with stuff like French people saying “email”. It’s not “email”! It’s “le Courriel”!
(French people still say “email” in private, though.)
English is different. Words may not be in the dictionary but that doesn’t keep them from being English anyway. Yesterday the word might not have existed, tomorrow it may go viral, and, in two years, it’ll get added to the dictionary.
I think that that’s on fleek.
All that to say:
1) Should?
2) I think it’s like e e cummings
3) You ain’t seen nothin’ yet (I rather expect we’ll see people who quoted Robin DiAngelo a mere year or two ago loudly deny that Robin DiAngelo is an authority on anything before the end of the year… dunno if they’ll do that with Kendi yet.)Report
Well at least you got down to 168 words for this answer.
1) Yes. Should. Should CRT be seen as either Motte or Bailey? You have written that its both, based on a person’s politics. I am asking you directly which you believe it should be. Makes assessing what it is easier.
2) You really need to learn to clearly explain things. How is it like ee cummings.
3)I take it you believe this will be impactful on modern racial political discussions and analyses? if so, an sentence like “I think it will have a lot of impact on modern racial political discussions and activities. Here are four ways:” would serve you much better.Report
1) I’m more of a descriptivist than prescriptivist. Just because CRT meant a very particular thing in 1979 does not mean that it ought to mean the exact same thing in 2021. If, in 2021, everybody is talking about the work of Robin DiAngelo and calling it CRT in 2021, that’s what CRT now refers to. Like it or not.
It will probably refer to something else next decade.
2) Above, I said this about e e cummings:
Now if you don’t know who e e cummings is, he’s a poet who did a masterful job of playing with the form. He eschewed a lot of the calcified “rules” about poetry and put together some awesome work that is playful and childlike and joyful and cutting and erotic and absolutely wonderful.
And then people looked at his work and said “I CAN DO THAT!” and, you know what? They couldn’t. Oh, gosh. Poetry still hasn’t recovered from the e e cummings wannabes. It might take another generation.
3) I think so. For example, the local parents groups that are upset at CRT are showing up at the school board meetings and demanding changes to the curriculum. Instead of complaining about stuff happening at a national level, or even a state level, they are showing up to the things happening in their own community and making demands. People who, to this point, have mostly been willing to quietly outsource the education of their children are now showing up and seeing how the sausage is made.
And I think that this will result in, among other things, changes at the local level for such things as school curriculae.
I think it’ll trickle up from there. We’ll have questions about it asked at the state level and politicians will have to come up with some sort of “splunge” answer.
I think that there will also be a retreat to the motte at the state level. Much like what Coke and Disney did, they will quietly scrub the websites and argue that the only thing that they’re doing is trying to point out that racism == bad. And nobody is suggesting that anybody read Robin DiAngelo.Report
You don’t seem to understand the concept of motte and bailey. CRT is not one of the other. It contains both. Specific claims arising out of CRT are either in its motte or in its bailey.
Also, the idea that CRT “will be” impactful is kind of weird, given that the media has been pushing ideas derived from CRT for years already.Report
If the evil racist Christians are at the gate, then you should be even more focused on presenting a clear, uncompromised argument to win the day.
Any runner can tell you that when you push yourself to go faster, that’s when you’re most tempted to break proper form. But that’s when you need to maintain form the most. Protesting racism while refusing to condemn the worst of CRT is sloppy technique.Report
You presume I have any problems with any part of CRT.
You presume CRT has any problems as a social construct.
And given that I’m a White Christian male – albeit not the least conservative – you presume that I have no valid criticism because I am a liberal.
I keep expecting better from you. And from Jaybird. I keep being disappointed.Report
I’ve stated why CRT should not be considered a valid social construct. I welcome you providing valid criticism. Here’s another opportunity: do you believe that the American system is irredeemable? If you do, that puts you outside the American liberal tradition. If you don’t then it puts you opposed to one of the tenets of CRT. The remaining tenets of CRT are within the American liberal tradition. Truth be told, the only opinion I find valid on this topic is the liberal.Report
As the son of a state that almost elected a former Grand Wizard of the KK first Governor and then US Senator, I remain skeptical that the US, in its current state is redeemable. If it were Democrats in the Senate would have called Mitch McConnell’s bluff, trashed the filibuster, and the proceeded to pass the President’s agenda. Its is for sure what McConnel did under Trump.Report
This is my favorite post this year. Great job, Jaybird.
The term CRT is intentionally being used because it facilitates the ability to go back and forth between the motte and the bailey. Opponents of this destructive social cancer need to gain control of the narrative, and that means going beyond this term, which proponents can just change at will.
I believe that what we should stand against is NEORACISM. That is what is objectionable in CRT. It is using racism in pursuit of other social goals, specifically including equality of outcome. CRT doesn’t just judge people based upon the color of their skin, it actively promotes, indeed requires, racism, specifically of the so called approved, reverse racist brand.
There are two ways to battle social inequity. The high road is universal standards, and uniform rules & legal standing for all people. This is a central tenet of the liberal order. The other way is to discriminate in reverse.
Alabama was clearly a racist state a hundred years ago, with Jim Crow laws discriminating against blacks. California was a liberal state 50 years ago, with mostly fair and equal standards applied to all. Harvard is a neoracist state today, actively not just judging people by the color of their skin (biasing for some races and against others) and taking pride in its stance.
Neoracism, expanded to its logical outcome, is a dead end, leading longer term not to anything resembling social justice and equality, but just a race$based zero sum battle over the spoils.
I oppose racism, including reverse racism, or neoracism.
If we stand against something which the other side gets to define and redefine at will, then we have already lost. I stand against racism in all its ugly forms.Report
The author of this post, along with many liberals, has been very vocal about pointing out that racism is alive and well, even in places like California where white people go way out of their way to prevent their children from going to school or associating with nonwhite children.
Since you and I are both opposed to racism in all its forms, this leaves us with the problem of how to address this.Report
Not just segregation (a great thread here):
But also policing policy!
Again, this is where I think Ibram X. Kendi’s criticism has real bite.Report
Right, so first off, it must be acknowledged that racism is very prevalent in America. It is deeply embedded in our institutions and structures. It isn’t long ago and far away, it is right here, right now every day.
So the problem then is how to combat all this racism?Report
The first thing I would do?
Create measurables and then measure them. Then I would suggest policies that would improve the measurables. Then I would implement those policies in some places and I would not implement them in others.
Then, every year for two-three years, I would continue to measure the measurables.
Then, if the policies made things worse, I would end the policies.Report
Jay,
What are you trying to accomplish?
Are you trying to make a black middle class (I think we already have one of those, it’s called Atlanta)?
Are you trying to fix people’s brains? (if so, black people or white people or hispanic people?)
How much money are you willing to throw at the problem?
(please bear in mind that many problems CAN’T be fixed except by throwing money at them, because they’re market-based)Report
Once again, we agree.
However, note that what you and I call “measurables” are what other people call “social engineering”.
Even for something as simple as housing segregation, this is a heavy lift in American society.Report
If you want something measured without a lot of pushback, put a cost on it. Once it costs money, people will measure the hell out of it.
Of course, putting a cost on structural racism would require letting people sue the government for such things, and we’ve decided that is a big no-no.Report
However, note that what you and I call “measurables” are what other people call “social engineering”.
For me, it’s just a list of quantifiable things that we want more of or a list of quantifiable things that we want less of (maybe these two lists can be stapled together?) and then we are able to say that we’ve done a good thing when the number changes in the direction we want it to.
Even for something as simple as housing segregation, this is a heavy lift in American society.
Especially in New York and California, for some reason.Report
Again…This has been quantified. You gave us the numbers.
Now what? How do we get the number to change in the direction we want?Report
I didn’t give you the numbers.
I gave you a handful of tweets.
The first thing I’d want to do is hammer out “What are we measuring?”
Because if we are hoping to change how school districts are zoned, pushing policies about CRT being taught in schools is more of a “long march” thing than an actual plan to improve things.Report
Lets assume for the moment that that segregation graph is accurate. You chose the graph, lets go with it.
So now what?
The point here is obviously, that there is a whole slate of policy proposals which have been proposed or implemented to various degrees over the years which attempt to reduce segregation.
Do any of them strike your fancy?
Or are there others you prefer?Report
I think that it’s safe to say that every single race-based policy that California has engaged in over the last three decades has failed. Like, miserably.
My proposed policy change at a starting point is “REPEAL”.
With a side of “instead of changing the curriculum to CRT-inspired stuff, maybe we could measure some important numbers first and *THEN* see if CRT is the cure for what ails those particular problems.”Report
CRT is not meant to be a cure for anything. As the now quiet Joe Sol liked to intone before his guy got shellacked – its a way of describing social constructs. CRT says “here’s how our society works; here’s the thing at the heart of the matter.”
Are there policies that can grow out of that, sure are. But CRT isn’t a policy. Its just a cogent explanation of reality. Which means objecting to CRT is really an objection to reality.Report
Oh, is that what CRT *REALLY* is?
Kind of surprising that so many people are arguing that you can’t teach this to 3rd graders. You’d think that reality is one of the things that ought to be taught in schools.Report
If you look at the complaints, it’s less about the what than the how. How is this being taught to kids?
This is why the laws are so clumsy, because trying to legislate how something is taught is like catching a greased pig.Report
The law is a horrible tool to deal with this particular problem.
(Well, it’s a horrible tool to deal with most problems.)
But politicians only have but so many ways to deal with problems and people who are used to outsourcing their responsibilities to others are more than happy enough to vote for the politicians who gleefully say that they’ll take care of the problem.Report
Chip,
Sources not cited.
In fact, when we take innocent, unbiased observers and feed them data, they get labeled “racist” and then lobotomized.
This is how seriously liberals take defending “Racism Is Very Prevalent in America.”
They have stopped listening to the data. If the data isn’t giving you what you want, their response is not to give more data, but to “fix” it.
This is not science.Report
I don’t think there are many parents that want their children to be kept out of top notch schools because of the racial make up. What parents do object to is sending their kids to schools with violence, disruption, bad learning environments and sub par educational outcomes.* Unfortunately there is an extremely strong correlation between the two. When parents, regardless of race, flee from one, they effectively flee from the other. This is not racism in my opinion, and should not be condemned as such. Indeed, I would recommend parents provide their children with the best environment possible. I would even say it is their duty to do so.
I would also, from a more systemic standpoint, recommend schools get equality of funding at least up to a socially optimal baseline level. I Would you do something beyond this?
* Illinois schools are required by law to reveal educational outcomes by school by race and Hispanic. The results are shocking. Drop out rates, test scores and so on were wildly different even when the kids grew up together, and that is after the more responsible parents took their kids out of poor performing schools.Report
Job is moving me to the East Coast this Summer. I’m taking the youngest with me. She’s a rising HS Freshman, so I need to pick High Schools.
I’ll send her into the best school available as shown by test scores and other math measurements.
School is majority minority so she’ll be a minority in her school. I expect it won’t matter.
I suspect a lot of “racism” is actually “classism”.Report
LOL.
Is this where I need to pull out my ‘Harvard still has way more legacy admissions, which are incredibly tilted towards white people, and literally were created for bigoted reasons, to keep out Jewish students, then any of their race-based criteria at all’ card?
Absolutely no one gets to complain about people getting into Harvard not on their own merits, but because of who they are and who their ancestors were. Because almost every single person getting unfairly into the Harvard because of who they are and who their ancestors were, is a white person.Report
Here: https://www.koppelmangroup.com/blog/2020/3/4/harvard-acceptance-rate-for-legacy-students
One entire third of Harvard students. And before you go ‘Wait, them being related to someone at Harvard doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to be there.’…that’s not actually the question.
Because, you see, all the people admitted under any sort of affirmative action setup _also_ deserve to be there. Affirmative action is required to only use an applicant’s background as an _additional_ consideration. Which is exactly how Harvard treats ‘telling them that you are related to someone who went to Harvard’.
You have a background that would increase Harvard’s diversity? You get a bonus during the application weighting.
You have a member of your family that went to Harvard? You get a bonus during application weighting.
Exactly the same…except, of course, Harvard greatly limits that first thing. That’s a specific amount of students added under a ‘diversity bonus’, and they cut it off. Whereas ‘legacy bonuses’ don’t work the same and HAVE NO CAP. You will always be considered higher if one of your relatives went to Harvard.
Hence the ‘fully one-third of the student body is related to some other graduate of Harvard’ thing.
—
In fact, they’re supposed to be! As a lawsuit has revealed, Harvard literally restricts 30% of their incoming class to ‘athletes, legacies, applicants on the dean’s interest list (typically children of donors or celebrities) and children of faculty and staff (ALDCs).’
And, in fact, the percentage of actual students under all those categories are 43%. So I guess there’s 10% of Harvard students who are athletes, children of famous or rich people, and children of staff. (And let me say: I don’t have a problem with children of _staff_ getting into Harvard. But that’s an incredibly small percentage.)
Now, some of those students are not white. In fact, some of the legacy students are not white!
But…the vast majority are, and, I’m not quite certain ‘some of those are wealthy first-generation white students whose family bribed their way in with donations’ or ‘they are wealthy first-generation white students who are the children of famous people’ is actually a counter to the claim that Harvard ‘judges [white] people by the color of their skin’.
No, I guess it’s judging people by their money, instead.
Harvard admission is incredibly unfair and biased, but the way it is unfair and biased is against non-white people. And additionally against non-wealthy people…but I repeat myself there. But sometimes wealthy Black celebs can get their kids into Harvard unfairly also. Yay! I guess?
All this is actually very easy information to have, and it sure is odd how part of the media harps about literally _any_ perceived leg-up that Black people might get, but is perfectly fine with Harvard continuing to operate legacy admissions, which is, again, a system that was literally designed to keep Jews out (Because Jews kept beating the admissions requirements.) and currently exists to keep out Black students who beat the admissions requirement…and this racist system tilts the table _so much_ towards white students that Harvard had to turn around and introduce something to tilt the table a little bit back toward level to get _some_ Black students because it looked really really bad when they don’t have any.
(And before anyone goes ‘Harvard needs to keep bringing in legacies to keep the donations rolling in, a) that’s an absurd defense to use with a straight face, such a thing clearly is not acceptable, and b) Harvard has a 40.9 _billion_ dollar endowment and could literally built 100 identical Harvards and operate them within their budget.)Report
Wasn’t arguing for legacy admissions. I was arguing against discrimination against Asians. What do they say about two wrongs?Report
No, you said Harvard was ‘neo-racist’. You didn’t mention Asians at all. Except it’s not neo-racism, and that entire thing with Asians is, literally, a complete lie.
Harvard doesn’t discriminate again Asians via ‘affirmative action’. It discriminates against them the same way it does any non-white people.
What Harvard actually does WRT to Asians is fails to correct any of its pro-white discrimination AGAINST Asians _via_ affirmative action, like it somewhat corrects racism against other minorities.
Hell, Harvard itself figured this out. And investigation, cited in the lawsuit, came up with a table to see what altered the odds of admission Here is it:
Athletic rating of 1 6.33
Personal Rating 1 or 2 2.41
Legacy 2.40
African American 2.37
Native American 1.73
Extracurricular 1 or 2 1.58
Academic 1 or 2 1.31
Standardized Academic Index 1.29
Hispanic 1.27
CSS self‐reported income less than or equal to $60K 0.98
International 0.24
Asian -0.37
Look at that, and note that white isn’t listed on there, because it’s 0. White applicants are the neutral line of 0!
Now, the lawsuit makes a big deal about the Asian number being negative, but that’s not a huge difference from 0. Asians are treated slightly worse than some hypothetical white application.
…except that they aren’t, because ‘personal rating’ and ‘legacy’ are _extremely_ tilted_ towards whites. That’s what actually’s happening there.
In fact, as the lawsuit points out, the Harvard people seem to be doing that on purpose with ‘personal rating’ for Asians, as Harvard application process involved _two_ groups of people, Harvard itself and the alumni, and the alumni seem to always like Asian application more than Harvard, who tends to score them bad. But it’s Harvard’s rating that counts.
This white-ward tilt is _moderately_ erased by the added bonus for African Americans and, to a lesser extent, Native Americans and Hispanics.
Harvard, if it operated solely in some sort of completely neutral manner based solely on grades+extracurriciular, should be accepting way more Asians, somewhat more Hispanics and Native Americans, barely more Blacks (Maybe that’s even the correct amount!), and way less whites.
The fact that Harvard has, in some sort of attempt to be less extremely blatant about their racism, decided to do something that slightly moved the needle up on the amount of _some_ of the groups is not the fault of those diversity attempts. The problem is that those diversity attempts are lie, intended to make the campus look less white.
Calling the situation there neoracism, and pretending it’s somehow the opposite of normal racism or is the _fault_ of affirmative action, is utter nonsense. It’s just 100% pro-white normal racism, the sort Harvard has been practicing literally the entire time it has been in existence.
(This is mostly because Harvard wants to be able to claim it has produced a lot of leaders, and in reality, what _actually_ correlates with ‘leadership’ is being wealthy and white and just being handed leadership despite competence.)Report
Good news! Harvard’s insights are spreading!
Report
It’s almost as if the very structure, the facially neutral structure operates in a way that marginalizes and excludes disfavored people without even needing explicit racial animus.
Huh.
I bet someone could build an entire academic theory around this.Report
It depends on what you’re going for.
If you want people who test well, you can get away with making a test.
If you want to pick and choose who gets in, you need something more holistic.Report
Right, and the choice of entrance metric is itself a choice which reflects the biases and worldview of the dominant culture, usually to the detriment of a disfavored minority.Report
Yep.
So long as the right minorities are disfavored, you can get away with murder.Report
Don’t forget to include extracurricular activities in the entrance metric, despite the fact it is incredibly obvious that how many extracurricular activities a student can do is literally a function of a) how well-funded their school is, b) where they live, c) how well-off their parents are.
And sometimes the parents just bribe people to _say_ they did those things, apparently.
Not that I’m sure it’s actually any better to pay someone to haul their kid to an actual lacrosse team where they can half-assedly practice and play some games. Not that they have to be any good, and not that being good at lacrosse is even something that should have anything to do with an education at all!
It’s literally just money being spent to make a college application being better…the only thing some parents got arrested for was that their kid didn’t _actually_ waste their time doing the pointless thing.
And we’ve almost given up on making schools stop using it in admissions. Like, at this point, we’re running in place to make them not just sorta *handwave* we want these kids and not those kids, and why we want them is completely secret, and please do not notice exactly one of those fifty kids are black…we promise he’ll be front and center for the photos.Report
Yeah, and the Asian thing is an interesting example of how ‘positive stereotypes’ are not helpful.
Specifically…people do not think as well of clearly intelligent Asian people as other minorities, not because of they think Asians can’t be that, but because they think most of them are (Or, at least, most of the ones apply to elite schools), and thus it’s _not interesting_.
Whereas clearly intelligent Black people are, to use a very memorable quite, often seen as ‘articulate’. There’s often a weird over-compensation there.
I’ve actually talked about this in the past, how we seem to care a hell of a lot that there are scholarships to help pull brilliant poor Black people out of poverty into elite schools…and for some reason, we see absolutely no reason to help _average_ poor Black students get into the same _average_ colleges that _average_ white people can get into.
This is, paradoxically, due to a racist assumption that Black people are dumber in general, so when we find a smart one, it’s a magical precious jewel that must be nurtured. They’re one of the smart ones!
Well, the Asian thing is literally the opposite. We think they’re all the smart ones, that’s not interesting at all. They’re not even as interesting as smart white people.Report
My impression is you need to look hard to find selective colleges that aren’t really trying to get Blacks at their percentage of population numbers.
Now non-selective colleges just take everyone so there’s that.Report
The question then is, is there a way of capturing the good parts and rejecting the bad ones?
That’s an easy question if everyone agrees on which are the good parts. “America has never truly reckoned with its racist past”? That’s arguable. But it’s fine if we have that argument. The more extreme stuff is a drafty crack in the Overton window frame, not something that we communally negotiated toward.
So maybe it’s easier if we define what goes too far. I’d say anything that rejects the American small-c constitution should be deemed acceptable as a critique, but not presentable as if it’s a governing system.Report
I think that it’s important to discuss what, in practice, is being done.
When you see a good part, lift that up. Say it’s good.
When you see a bad part, reject it.
And keep doing the good stuff.
And keep pushing back against the bad stuff.Report
It’s not enough to be a mottist. You have to become a baileyist. If you’re not, then you’re a mottophobe.Report
I mean, by definition, shouldn’t we _not_ ban things we can’t explain to people? Because we can’t explain what we’re banning? Aren’t you the person who normally complains about laws being too complicated to follow?
Or, to put it another way, if CRT is such a broad term, which is used to encompass things that we want children to know, isn’t outlawing it, as a general thing, the opposite of what we want? If there’s only some things that might fall into that term that we want to outlaw, we should explicitly outlaw those things, not the entire concept.Report
We don’t give kids bug-infested chocolate. We give them good chocolate, because the chocolate part isn’t the problem. The company who says that there’s no way to separate the chocolate from the bugs, they’re the guys we put out of business.Report
Except there is no company here, it would be very easy to define ‘produced by a specific company’, but we didn’t get that.
What has happened is the banning of ‘sugary foods’, an incredibly vaguely defined category that could include a lot of things we want people to eat.
Conservatives used to complain about that sort of thing.Report
No one’s saying kids can’t be taught things about America and race.Report
well sure – parents can teach. Media can teach. Wikipedia can teach.
But a growing number of states are, in fact saying teachers can’t teach.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/florida-critical-race-theory-ban-what-it-tells-us-about-anti-anti-racism.htmlReport
That was my point. Schools can teach kids about race, but not CRT. Throw out the garbage propaganda and teach actual history.Report
Actual history, being that racism is deeply embedded in our legal structures and institutions?Report
The whole point of the article is that you can’t conflate the motte of “racism is deep in our system” with the bailey “racism is inherent in our system”. As for me, I do take the position that racism is no longer embedded in our system, and if you want to debate that, we can. But you can’t pretend that’s what CRT is about.Report
CRT is a bailey for the motte of racism.
You and I aren’t disagreeing about anything Ibrahim X Kendi has written, or any esoteric concepts. We aren’t arguing over some incendiary tweet by some professor or another.
We disagree about the very simple issue of how deeply racism is embedded in our society.Report
There’s a difference between saying that racism is embedded in our society and that it’s inherent in our society. CRT is explicit on this point. A society with embedded racism can be redeemed. A society with inherent racism cannot.Report
I would agree that American society can be redeemed by purging it of the racism embedded in its legal structures and institutions.Report
Does that mean we agree that CRT, as academically defined, goes too far with its proposed solutions, and therefore constitutes a poor foundation for K-12 and business training programs?Report
You all know more about CRT than I and 99% of all Americans do.
I’m being serious here. Just as with Saul Alinsky, conservatives have apparently done more reading (or claimed to have done more reading) of CRT than even most liberals.
Although my bullshit detectors are ringing, since apparently no liberals other than Ibrahim X. Kendi, Robin D’ Angelo, and the occasional corporate HR trainer have ever done any writing about CRT, since they seem to only quote those couple people.
But yeah, if someone is out there saying America is irredeemable, I won’t support that.Report
Despite being corrected multiple times, this is now the *THIRD TIME* you’ve misspelled Ibram X. Kendi’s name. This is the third time you’ve misspelled Robin DiAngelo’s name.
You want to know one of the ways that you can fight against White Supremacy in your own zip code?
Maybe go to the effort of spelling names that you find exotic correctly.Report
As I’ve pointed out in past threads on laws and regulations banning CRT in public schools, there’s some variation. Some of them are vague and proscribe CRT by name; Florida’s regulation, whose title I forget, is one such example. I don’t think this is productive. Others explicitly proscribe specific enumerated concepts which are not to be promoted; Oklahoma’s HB 1775 is one such example. I think this approach is much better. I haven’t conducted a comprehensive survey of all such laws and regulations, but my understanding is that the latter model is much more common.
So what you’re criticizing is not exactly a strawman, but it is kind of a weakman. By and large, these rules are proscribing well-defined concepts, not just saying, “No CRT.”Report
I read your comment re the Oklahoma law in the previous post on this topic, and I was struck by the fact that it was broadly ignored by the commenters all around, while everyone continued to argue about the broader TX law. I suppose it’s similar to the SSC “Toxoplasma of Rage” thing – no one bothers to comment on stuff we basically all agree with.Report
The Texas law is very similar to the Oklahoma law. Could you be thinking of the Florida regulation?Report
Errrr, yes… and looking back at that post, I guess there was actually a bit of discussion of the OK law, and perhaps there will now be more here. But other than that, I think my comment holds up pretty well. :/Report
No they aren’t. They are more detailed, but they are still extremely badly defined.
Let’s look at HR1775: No enrolled student of an institution of higher education within The Oklahoma State System of Higher Education shall be required to engage in any form of mandatory gender or sexual diversity training or counseling; provided, voluntary counseling shall not be prohibited. Any orientation or requirement that presents any form of race or sex stereotyping or a bias on the basis of race or sex shall be prohibited.
Please explain what you think ‘gender or sexual diversity training or counseling’ is. Remember, this is _college_. Please draw the line between ‘Do not be homophobic’ told to students at orientation and ‘sexual diversity training’.
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But, okay, that’s not the part that teachers cannot teach. Let’s check that out.
First, some of those are barring things no one wants to do except racists and sexists, like teaching one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex.
Second, it’s actually a little funny they’ve managed to, by not understanding a lot of things, accidentally written laws that do not do what they are trying to do. That second bars teaching an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously,
But here’s the thing: Literally no one teaches that. Plenty of people that teach white people are ‘inherently racist’ (Wrong words, but right concept) in this society due to various things, but not a single one will assert it is a property of white people _because_ of their race. (What, like it’s genetic?!?!) Instead, they assert some level of ‘inherent racism’ in white people due to SOCIETY.
But, anyway, many of those things are not being taught.
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But it bans at least two things that are problems.
The first is: You can’t teach students that any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race or sex
Now, IN THEORY, that seems reasonable. Teachers probably shouldn’t be telling students how they ‘should’ feel at all. Like, that weirdly would be a good _general_ rule. (Not a law, though.)
But…that is a VERY fine line. What is going to happen the first time a teacher teaches something that DOES make a white student feel discomfort on account of his race?
That’s not them _telling_ the student to feel discomfort (Which is against the law), it’s the student feeling discomfort organically when they learn what people like them did to other people?
Actually, not even ‘What happens?’, but ‘What is the level of chilling effect that will happen as teachers worry that someone will _very slightly_ bend this law to target someone who teaches information that makes white students feel uncomfortable?
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And that one sorta pales in comparison to the other one, which bans teaching meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are racist or sexist or were created by members of a particular race to oppress members of another race.
Despite it seeming random, this sort of thing is in a lot of anti-CRT laws. A lot of them have sections restricting criticisms of _capitalism_ or ‘meritocracy’ or stuff like that.
Because it is, in fact, one of the few things that actually _does_ relate to CRT.
So, weird coincidence. I literally, in these very comments, just posted about how legacy admissions at Harvard were designed by whites to keep Jews out.
Did I just…claim the meritocracy was members of a particular race to oppress members of another race? I think I did!
Wow! If I had told students in Oklahoma that, I would have violated this law!
Or would I? I mean, getting into Harvard isn’t ‘meritocracy’ per se…in fact, I’m not quite sure what that would even be. What does that mean? Meritocracy isn’t ‘a thing’, it is type of a system.
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Section f is getting a bit iffy too, but this is already a very long post.
The entire law is actually so bad you could rules-lawyer your way around it. I.e., you aren’t talking about ‘meritocracy’, you are explicitly pointing out America is _not_ a meritocracy. Likewise, you aren’t calling traits sexist or racist, how would a trait be bigoted, it’s just a description of someone? You are calling the _concept_ of that trait a bigoted concept created by members of a…
And the fact I can do sort of thing actually is the issue…the question is not whether anything breaks this law…the question is whether we can _figure out_ if it does, which we can’t, because it’s gibberish.
And I should note: Literally half this law is discussed in this post. It’s very short. It doesn’t even define terms…wait a second.
It actually doesn’t say you can’t ‘teach’ those things, but that you can’t ‘require or make part of a course the following concepts’ those things, which not only is very odd phrasing (So you can teach them as long as you didn’t plan them?)…but actually doesn’t even parse grammatically, now that I’ve read it carefully!
1. No teacher, administrator or other employee of a school district, charter school or virtual charter school shall require or make part of a course the following concepts:
a) one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex,
Removing ‘or’ and flatten them out.: No teacher….shall require…one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex.
No, that’s clearly not right, try again. What about: No teacher…shall require…the following concepts: one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex,
That…parses. Almost. (That’s not how you do a list in the law, ‘concept’ should be singular. It’s like how the Constitution says ‘The Congress shall have Power To’ and then has a list. It doesn’t say ‘The Congress shall have the Following Powers:’ I know that sounds like a minor quibble, but it’s really unprofessional, because it when you cut out the part of the law you need, you get something that looks stupid, like above.)
Anyway, what they were really were trying to write: No teacher…shall require…the concept [that] one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex,
But anyway, grammatical stupidity aside…what?!
What sort of requiring? Require them to exist? Require them to be talked about? Require them to be learned? Requiring them to be spelled with British spelling? You left out the important part, the thing that the concepts can’t be required to be by the teacher! Who even wrote this?
This is the law that supposedly was well-defined, it wasn’t like the crappy ones don’t know what they were talking about.Report
“If CRT is something that even PhDs in the field have trouble explaining, surely it wouldn’t be that much of a problem banning it being taught to 3rd graders.”
If you ban something you can’t define, you’ve potentially banned everything.Report
If you can’t describe it, you shouldn’t ban it or teach it to kids.Report
You teach things to kids because they’re good things to teach; whether they fall into some ill-defined category is irrelevant. Banning “CRT” is just an invitation to censor unpleasantness, like that fact that the heroes of the Alamo were defending slavery.Report
Exactly.
Because if you censor unpleasantness, then you don’t have to actually do anything about it, and you won’t be held accountable for your failure to do anything about it.Report
But is it safe for 60-year-old generals?Report
That’s the best way to do it.Report
I think we can stipulate the following things:
(1) CRT is radical. Radicalness is not inherently bad or good, so whatever.
(2) CRT is difficult to understand. It’s an scholarly paradigm (primarily) for the study of legal systems and related institutions, though it has bled into other disciplines as a way of looking at those institutions (e.g., education). Most scholarly work is difficult to understand if you’re not sufficiently well-read or educated in the relevant literature (this isn’t indoctrination, by the way, it’s what all scholarship requires).
Is CRT being taught in schools to elementary school children? Pretty obviously not; it would make no sense to them. Are ideas inspired in any way by CRT scholarship being taught to elementary school children? Seems likely, given that many of the people who work on the materials for educating children on prejudice, racism, etc. will have at least a passing familiarity with CRT, and may have been influenced by it even if they don’t agree with it in full or even in part. It’s now up to people who think this is bad to explain why. So far, the explanations have had little to do with either CRT or anything being taught in schools. For example, one of the most common reactionary criticisms of CRT is that it teaches race essentialism, when we know that one of the common themes that runs through CRT, and pretty much all anti-racism work, is that race is not a biological category, but a socially-constructed one. I’ve yet to see a single example presented in which race is taught to children in racial essentialist ways by anti-racism folks (as opposed to, say, Lost Causers).Report
To expand on the radical thing: many of the ideas that came out of the Civil Rights Movement, including many of Dr. King’s ideas, were (and still are) radical. It would be silly to deny that those ideas have influenced some aspects of education on the subject of race, racism, and American history, yet no one but open white supremacists and Lost Causers (but I repeat myself) will argue that’s a bad thing.Report
Dr. King does not have as many fans as he used to.
California Ethnic Studies Curriculum imposes critical race theory, excludes Martin Luther King Jr.Report
It’s now up to people who think this is bad to explain why.
Well, I wouldn’t mind CRT as a way of looking at inequity to be taught to children.
What I mind is the game of telephone played where it starts as CRT over there, wanders through the professors who teach teachers to teach, ends up on tumblr, and then becomes something that someone who is friends with someone who took DEI training once ends up saying stuff like “It hurts people when they see a white man bouncing a brown baby on their lap and they don’t know the context! That is harmful! That makes people cry.”
The problem isn’t the theory.
The problem is what it turns into in practice.
“Yes, but that’s not *REAL* Critical Race Theory.”
“Why am I feeling déjà vu?”Report
When taught to children, are we teaching children of color they can’t succeed? Giving them excuses for why they shouldn’t try?
One of my girls is Left handed. It’s a problem. Society is pretty standard on Right. Pointing out to her that it creates a few disadvantages for her but I expect her to overcome them is fine. Teaching her that the entire system is designed to prevent her from being successful is not.Report
I was first exposed to CRT about 30 years ago in a Constitutional Law class. We would read a case like Brown v. Board of Education, discuss it on one day, and for the next day discuss it again after reading a variety of critiques of the decision. CRT was one of many such viewpoints in cases involving race, but I don’t recall it animating much thought or discussion. I believe it was then and now a species of postmodernism, challenging the certainty of objective truth given institutional realities (in this case the insuppressible reality of racial conflict).
But to respond to your query, the 1619 Project is racial essentialist and it is taught in the Chicago schools and others. (An Illinois bill to require it statewide failed and ended up in a very weird place with students now being required to learn about pre-1619 slavery) The 1619 Project perpetuates critical views of antiracism movements in U.S. history using many arguments originating from Lost Cause narratives. The notion that Lincoln was a racist and that is all there is to know about him is Lost Cause narrative. The War wasn’t really about slavery, you know.Report
How is the 1619 Project racial essentialism?Report
The 1619 Project claims that the American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery. That is racial essentialism — all other causes are eliminated to make race the only theoretical possibility remaining.Report
Contrary evidence:
1777 – Vermont abolishes slavery
1780 – Pennsylvania abolishes slavery
1783 – New Hampshire abolishes slavery
1783 – Massachusetts abolishes slavery (based on judicial interpretation of 1780 Constitution)
1784 – Connecticut abolishes slavery
1784 – Rhode Island abolishes slavery
1787 – Northwest Ordinance prohibits slavery in Northwest territories.
1794 — Slave Trade abolished (only really effecting South Carolina, all other states had kept their ban on the slave trade from the Revolution)
1799 – New York abolishes slavery
1804 – New Jersey abolishes slaveryReport
Here is a link to the Pulitzer Center’s 1619 Curriculum.
https://pulitzercenter.org/lesson-plan-grouping/1619-project-curriculum
The curriculum is a sprawling set of educational lesson plans, essays and links to other reading materials.
Your statement- that it “claims that the American Revolution was fought to preserve slavery” is an absurd caricature of Hannah Nicole Jone’s essay where states that preserving slavery was an important rationale for the colonists support.
Just how important slavery was to gaining the support of the slaveowning colonists is debatable. But it isn’t by any stretch of imagination, “race essentialism”.
Once again, the bailey of a debatable assertion is attacked, so as to avoid the motte of institutional racism.Report
Racial essentialism is the belief that races are biologically distinct groups with defining core essences.
So, it’s nothing like racial essentialism.Report
I don’t think you know that race essentialism means. That, at least, is not race essentialism.
Reductionism, perhaps, though since it does not in fact claim that slavery was the only cause of the American Revolution, it’s not even that.
Race essentialism is the idea that race is an immutable category, usually due to a biological basis (see also, gender essentialism).Report
Essentialism is also used in history to describe efforts to ascribe unique, and universal qualities of a nation or group of people. The 1619 Project does not set out to critique the American Revolution, its purpose is to fashion a narrative that reduces America completely to a racist slave state. I think Edward Said would describe that as essentialism if it was done to an Arab or Islamic state.Report
“its purpose is to fashion a narrative that reduces America completely to a racist slave state”
Except, of course, it does no such thing.
But why should we let facts get in the way of our screaming match? It’s best we all assume, facts be damned, that the 1619 project is your caricature of it.
I mean it feels truthy, right? Sure, one can read Jone’s essay and realize you’re wrong, but again — let’s not let pesky reality get in the way of a good rant about how awful things are today, not like in the good old days.
I mean heck, if we let facts get in the way, this whole thread would be “Fox News makes up a bunch of crap about CRT, pretends it’s taught in schools, stirs up the easily angered. I guess this is the best they’ve got for 2022”
Hardly worth attention.Report
Here is a link to the full pdf of the opening essays of the 1619 Project including Nikole Hannah-Jones’s essay, the one you’re talking about.
https://pulitzercenter.org/sites/default/files/full_issue_of_the_1619_project.pdfReport
I guess he learned too much CRT, and not enough “reading for comprehension” in school.
Or else he just trusted the wrong people’s synopsis, without taking a second to check it.
Which is pretty weird, because “its purpose is to fashion a narrative that reduces America completely to a racist slave state” is a WILD claim that doesn’t even vaguely pass the smell test.
Yeah, I’m sure you can find a few nuts claiming that — you can find people who believe the earth is flat. But that somehow that sort of incredibly non-naunced, flat-out statement made it into something like the 1619 project?
Talk about projecting your bias.Report
So far, the explanations have had little to do with either CRT or anything being taught in schools. For example, one of the most common reactionary criticisms of CRT is that it teaches race essentialism, when we know that one of the common themes that runs through CRT, and pretty much all anti-racism work, is that race is not a biological category, but a socially-constructed one.
I think that you’re conflating two separate ideas here. One is biological essentialism, which is rejected under the social constructivist tenet of CRT (and also under the principles of behavior genetics†). The other, we might call functional essentialism. This is the idea that, e.g., in a white supremacist culture (sic), a white person cannot help but be racist to some degree. It’s not really essentialism, but it’s functionally equivalent. This is what CRT critics are talking about when they say some CRT proponents promote the idea that white people are inherently racist.
† This is not to say that the CRT concept of social constructivism is fully supported either theoretically or empirically by behavior genetics, only that on the particular issue of essentialism they are in accord.Report
Interestingly, most “anti-racist” paradigms argue that we all internalize racism, regardless of race, which undermines even that weaker accusation.Report
This does not undermine the claim in the slightest. All white people contributing to a system of oppression (another shibboleth) as a result of internalizing anti-black racism is not in any meaningful sense equivalent to black people internalizing anti-black racism. Not to mention that there’s a large contingent which insists that it’s impossible for racial minorities to be racist.
CRT has grown and diversified greatly over the decades, both in academia and in its various popularized forms. Outside of the most fundamental tenets, virtually any claim you make about it will be contested by one branch or another. But it is a fact that “all white people are racist” and “all white people contribute to upholding racist systems of oppression” are common talking points.Report
You’re interpreting things inherent in the system as inherent in the individuals, and therefore attributing an essentialism to it.
Amusingly, the accusation of Narcist roots undermines many of the other criticisms, but no one making accusations of essentialism have any real knowledge of Marxism.Report
To clarify: One of the central components of pretty much any Marxism, even the vulgar versions, is that consciousness, or thought, or whatever you want to call it, is largely determined by social relations (e.g., relations of production in classical Marxism), and that it is possible to change consciousness/though either by making people aware of the nature of those relations or by changing those relations. In other words, even if we argue (uncontroversially, it seems to me) that we are socialized in certain ways (that is, that we internalize certain aspects of our social world, including racial and gender relations), any Marxist or Marxist-inspired view will see that socialization as mutable through education or a change in the social reality. It is in no way essentialist.
Granted, there are plenty of people out there who hold left or progressive or whatever views of race who hold essentialist views on race: essentialism is a sort of cognitive default for us, and it takes work to overcome it. Even this tendency to essentialize social categories and relations is something often discussed among Marxists and those inspired by Marxism.Report
I hate to say it but I have an unhappy suspicion that the best way to address CRT will be the way we’re going, messy and chaotic as it is. CRT is growing out of the rarified environments of the academic hothouse and pushing out into the real world and into real liberalism. As disgusting as the rights exaggerations, hysteria and fearmongering is on the subject it does produce an environment of real intense heat on the various ideas of CRT. What is bad and stupid within CRT probably won’t be able to survive in that environment but, in theory, what is true and relevant may. Burn away the dross to find the alloy, so to speak.
Worst of all, I don’t think it’s a task we cowardly corporate moderates can fill. We actually care about what our co-liberals and the others to our left think so we’re too easily cowed by their histrionics at any hint of being questioned. The right, of course, doesn’t merely not mind those howls of outrage; they depend on them.
But damn what a way to do social thinking. Yeesh.Report
“…so we’re too easily cowed by their histrionics at any hint of being questioned.”
It was George Will who wrote something like if you asked a conservative if they were conservative, they would proudly declare, “Damn right!” Whereas if you asked a liberal is they were liberal they would look around nervously and mutter “Labels do not matter.”
What I like about Biden, Harris, and the newer crop of Dems is that they are more like “Damn right!” than the nervous curl-up-in-a-fetal-position type.Report
Biden as a “new liberal” is a bemusing concept but I certainly join you in relishing the death of liberal being a four letter word- to the general public that is. What is new and strange is liberal being a four letter word for those who are situated to the left of liberals.Report
It’s probably way too late in the game to call bullshit on the interpretation of the Kendi quote near the top of this page, but bullshit I do indeed call:
This is taken out of context. It comes from page 222 of “How to be an Antiracist” (the lack of a page number might be our first clue that the original tweeter wasn’t quoting in good faith). Kendi is not bemoaning how limited the people are, nor is he talking about the limitations of his theories. He’s talking about the limitations of language. He’s talking about how he changes his language to change the understanding and expectation of the people he’s talking to.
Before the quoted passage he says,
He concludes the thought at the top of 223 with the one-sentence paragraph, “I try to keep everyday people in mind when I use ‘racist policies’ instead of ‘institutional racism.'”Report
Thank you for the clarification.
That said, I think that the difference between CRT in the academic theories and CRT after it gets changed to the understanding and expectation of the people he’s talking to results in the stuff that gets called “well, that’s not *REALLY* Critical Race Theory” before wandering through an explanation about how CRT is really an obscure scholarly paradigm from the 1970s.
When it comes to “racist policies”, I’m pretty sure that everybody agrees that those should be repealed where they are officially on the books and policies ought to be written to combat the unofficial ones.
The problem comes when you do that from a standpoint that has a starting point of questioning the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law.
Heck, I think you can even get the average Joe/Jane/Jx to swallow the gnat of “institutional racism”.
It’s the whole question of the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law where we’re back to people not understanding what the post-theory is supposed to look like… and what game is really being played.Report
You are welcome!Report
This would be a great place to actually show us examples of CRT that “question the very foundations of the liberal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law.”
That aren’t written by Mr. Kendi or Whatsername.Report
Would Richard Delgado count?Report
Fascinating that the very people who accuse CRT proponents of indoctrination are saying that certain aspects of their ideology are beyond questioning.
(I for one think it’s really important to question those things in particular.)Report
“That’s not happening! But it should be!”Report
It is happening — I read stuff that either questions or undermines those things pretty much every day. You just have to see it out. It’s not gonna come to you in 7th grade from the school curriculum.Report
Again, it’s not the One True Thing That Honest People Agree Is Really Critical Race Theory that I have a problem with.
It’s the popified DEI stuff that is making its way to the 7th graders.Report
Does the popified DEI stuff question Enlightenment rationalism, or does it just look at systemic racism? If it does the former, can you give me some examples from primary or secondary school curricula?Report
This strikes me as an invitation to post something that Tucker Carlson also covered and then have it pointed out to me that Tucker Carlson covered this!
Do I have any examples of equality theory being questioned that Chris Rufo did *NOT* also amplify?
I probably don’t. Is that a problem?Report
I brought up Chris Rufo because he openly stated what the game is: Keep the definition of CRT vague and mysterious so that you can take any crazy tweet or illiberal idea and point to it and shout “CRT!”
We are, what, a hundred or so comments in, an I haven’t seen any real examples of “Crazy Illiberal CRT”.
Which is also why I point to the Kendi and whatsername, because it seems like the opponent are just trying to take two fringe people an make them the bailey while ignoring the motte.
Instead of actual clear examples followed by logical arguments, we just get esoteric labels an dark muttering absurdum hypotheticals.Report
I don’t know if it’s CRT, but the video link in the OP is what people are probably thinking of as Crazy Illiberal CRT.Report
And that’s the Community Education Council.
If you want to know what a CEC does, this is straight from the horse’s mouth:
Report
Where did Chris Rufo say that? Keep in mind that the Washington Post recently retracted several false claims that they made about him.
Also, why would he even want to lie about that? The important thing is that the crazy stuff or out there, being pushed by people in positions of authority who should know better. The label doesn’t actually matter that much.Report
I believe that he’s referring to this (please correct me if I’m wrong!):
Report
And people somehow see bad faith in that?Report
I’m sure that they do.
That said, he seems to have done a pretty good job freezing the brand into the public conversation.
Bad DEI training that explains that being on time == White Supremacy Culture? CRT.
Math training that discusses the racism of being asked to show work? CRT.
Neighborhood White Accountability Groups? CRT.
And the argument that CRT is really an obscure legal theory from the 1970’s and it’s impossible to teach 3rd graders is one that avoids dealing with the situation of bad DEI training, Math training that is kinda sus, and Neighborhood White Accountability Groups.
It comes across about as eloquently as “‘Defund the Police’ doesn’t mean Defund the Police”.Report
Which reminds me of our discussions about media manipulation wrt the Lab Leak Theory, where it was noticed how all sots of media outlets destroyed their reputation by engaging in what appeared to be manipulation in pursuit of a narrative.
Which media outlets have cooperated with Rufo in this propaganda narrative creation, and how should we regard their credibility now?Report
As far as I can tell, it’s just Fox, OANN, and Newsmax.
You had probably best stop seeing them as reputable news sources. Quit watching them for two hours a night.
(Honestly, I think you’ll be happier if you do.)
But there is some good news: Fox viewership is down.Report
Happily, I stopped watching all cable news back in 2011.
But I think its important for us here at OT to acknowledge that America is in the midst of a massive propaganda campaign to stoke ethnic fear and rage and that informs even our civil discussions.Report
Chip, I don’t think that there’s a single person on the board who would disagree that America is in the midst of a massive propaganda campaign to stoke ethnic fear and rage and that informs even our civil discussions.
And has been ever since Occupy Wall Street wound down.Report
Only 10 years ago? That explains so much…
(Here I virtue signal that I stopped watching cable news back in 2005, so I am clearly more enlightened!)Report
But, really, Charles Murray has a point.Report
It depends on whether you think that different cultures will have different outcomes for different skill areas.
I mean, it’d be weird if different cultures within a multiculture all ended up with the same homogenous outcomes.
“Diversity” does not equal “Uniformity” in practice.
(Who knew?)Report
Who knew that systemic racism would have an effect? Everyone. It’s why denying it existence is so important..Report
Does eliminating systemic racism involve changing a sub-culture?
Or is the assumption that with the elimination of systemic racism that the sub-culture will just absorb itself into the other, presumably better, one?Report
Well, hell, if ending systemic racism won’t fix everything immediately, why bother?Report
What happens if we end “systemic racism” and find out a sub-culture being violent and not thinking education is important is responsible for the bulk of it’s members to not be very successful?
Or does their lack of success mean we haven’t eliminated systemic racism?Report
If we have to, we ban the Republican party.Report
The big places where Blacks are having low achievement are liberal plantations where there are no GOP officials.
The good news is mission accomplished, the GOP is banned. The bad news is the problem seems to have gotten worse? What makes us sure it’s a “racism” thing?Report
Charles Murray was very clear on the pathology of working class white people who are generally lazy, use drugs, are hyper violent and vote Republican, “bitter clingers”, versus upper class educated white people who stay in school, marry well and enjoy the good life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_Apart_(book)
So maybe it isn’t a race thing, maybe its a social pathology thing.
A modest proposal might be to have a system of government boarding schools take the children of working class white people an educate them into the secular progressive way of thinking.
The historical record on this sort of thing is, I believe, generally free of blemishes.Report
My former Church used to have a lot of outreach (really attempting to uplift) groups in the Appalachia Mountains. So yeah, there are white sub-cultures that have most or all of the same issues. This tends to get buried in the data when we think of “all whites”. That’s true to a lesser degree for the Blacks too, however the misbehaving sub-culture is larger as a percentage of the population.
What to do about large groups of people who make bad choices because of culture is an unsolved problem. Traditionally we let people live their own lives and ignore it. However, as the level of racism goes down in society, using the racism paradigm to explain what is going on becomes less useful.
For example we arrest more black drug dealers than whites. If the core reason is a lot of black dealers operate openly on street corners so they’re easier to pick up, what does the “racism” paradigm tell us we should do?
Similarly, concerned and well-resourced parents trying to put their kids into good schools creates segregation. Big picture they’re treating low achieving Black schools like they do/would treat low achieving White schools. Efforts to convince those parents that they’re racists haven’t gone well, even in solid liberal areas.
In terms of solutions I’d suggest…
1) End the war on drugs.
2) Federalize zoning regulation (this is not well defined).
3) Walk away from CRT being taught in schools. It seems more an excuse for failure than a way to cope.
4) The usual “racist” stuff is already, and should remain, illegal. Changing the definition of “racist” to mean “not a democrat” isn’t useful. “Racist” means “discrimination on the basis of skin color”.
5) #4 implies strongly we should end affirmative action.
6) It would be good if we could encourage marriage and discourage unwed pregnancy without being too intrusive (also not a well fleshed out idea).
I’m fine with police reform but view that as a different problem from racism.Report
After I wrote my comment, I thought it was too hamfisted, the metaphor too obvious and not oblique enough to serve as humor.
Maybe I should use diagrams next time, or text with blinking lights all around.Report
A link to “A Modest Proposal” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal (selling poor children as food to the rich) might help.
However I’m the wrong guy if you were expecting outrage or push-back against the idea that there are White dysfunctional subculture(s).
I have relatives who have dealt drugs, cooked drugs for a motorcycle gang, joined cults, and had multiple children out of wedlock with different fathers (no one person did all of that but whatever).
“Social pathology thing” isn’t a bad way to describe it.Report
I assumed that by “sub-culture being violent and not thinking education is important” you meant Republicans.Report
What makes you think that?Report
Then we could make the entire country like San Francisco!Report
Not exactly my criticism.
I’m more criticizing the whole “we have to do something, therefore we have to do *THIS*” thing.Report
Hundreds of them. Which one are you referring to?Report
No; I think he meant it exactly how people are hearing it. “Institutional racism” doesn’t mean the same thing as “racist policies”, because if the problem is racist policies then people understandably figure that all we have to do is change the racist policies and we’re good to go. But people like Kendi do not want this to be a matter of changing the racist policies, they want this to be a Perpetual Struggle Against The Inherent Evil Of The White Race.
Which, to be fair, isn’t an entirely unjustifiable thing to want; because if it’s just about changing racist policies then you end up playing Antiracism Whack-A-Mole. The problem is that it’s really hard to define a concept of Original Sin without ending up in religious dogma, which is something else that people like Kendi do not want; they want it to be an intellectual journey, a Winston Smith style battle with oneself, so thorough a decision to love Big Brother that you forget it was ever even a decision at all.Report
Hey all, long time no see.
This seems like a good enough place to tell this story, since embedded deep down in this piece and the comments seems to be that age-old question, “What’s ‘fair’? Is it equality of opportunity; equality of outcome; or some combo of both; or other?”
Anyway, I’ve been reading the John D. Fitzgerald book series The Great Brain with the kiddos at night; it’s a series I read a lot as a kid, and it holds up pretty well. If you never read them, they’re based loosely on the author’s own childhood in Utah; it’s set in the late 1800s, and concerns the adventures of the world’s youngest conman, the titular Great Brain, John’s older brother Tom.
Anyway, there’s a story in one about an annual Fourth of July ten-man tug-of-war between the Mormon kids in town, and the “Gentile” (Protestant and Catholic) kids in town; this being Utah in the late 1800s, the Catholic and Protestant kids are very much a numerical minority.
And every year they get CREAMED by the Mormon kids, for the simple reason that the Mormon kids outnumber them by about 4:1, so they have a distinct advantage in picking the biggest and strongest kids among them for their team each year.
Tom (a Catholic, with lots to confess) decides he’s had enough – and also that some betting money can be made – if he rigs it so that this year the Gentile kids will win. He ensures they get the side of the river he needs them to, and he pounds hidden stakes into the ground that the Gentile kids can brace their feet against.
And me and the kiddos had a lot of good talk about what Tom did, because, well, that’s clearly cheating, right? It’s not fair.
But and also the Gentile kids, as a minority, were at a clear numeric disadvantage, that naturally caused their perpetual inability to ever succeed. That’s not fair EITHER, is it?
That is: systematic inequality can be as much a NUMBERS game as anything else; it doesn’t require villains consciously trying to perpetuate it; even sans malice (which, to be clear, I do not deny the existence of), it simply perpetuates itself, naturally.
Now, I’m not saying Tom’s solution was the correct one; obviously there are other ways to try to level the playing field (and most crucially, those ways should be implemented in the open, not via deception).
But Tom’s fictional solution does, and should, appeal to the underdog-rooter in all of us. Who doesn’t want to see the little guy win, at least once in a while?
And more importantly, this is a very straightforward and simple-to-understand illustration of how systematic inequality can perpetuate itself that doesn’t require villainy as an explanation.
Maybe next, I’ll try it with some adults. 😉Report
Glyph!
I wonder if it would have been possible, even in theory, for the Gentiles to come up with a contest that they would have won against the numerically superior Mormons.
Okay, a tug of war wouldn’t work.
Tom came up with a footrace that the kid with the wooden leg was able to win, if I recall correctly.
Is there any contest that they could have figured out where the Gentiles would have had the advantage?Report
I dunno that I buy this. It’s a good just-so story as long as we set the characters to be precisely who we want them to be.
What about if the Mormons turn out to actually be working class Asian Americans, the Gentiles are rich, unwitting Nigerian immigrants, and Tom is a well-meaning academic who hasn’t left the ivory tower in two decades? And the rope getting jerked around? Those are the normie tax payers who scrimped and saved to get into a good school district and want a decent education for their kids so they have a shot at a decent life in a cut-throat, post-industrial economy. But instead they’re getting a bunch of predetermined just-so stories.Report
It’s good as far as a teaching aid for younger minds. As many Just-So stories are.
We expect, as those young minds mature to voting age, that they learn to understand complexity.
The fact that many of them don’t is… well, it’s a failure of our society.Report
The point, I think, is to demonstrate that A.) we can have different notions of “fair” and more than one notion can be true; and B.) a very, very simple explanation/illustration of how things like “network effect” etc. work in social settings.
Yes, if we simply map the elements in this story to whatever our preferred political narrative of the day is with no further thought given, that’s overly simplistic. You’re right that who’s the “minority” and who’s the “majority” and who or what is the “rope” can be viewed differently, along multiple axes, and most situations probably won’t come out so clear.
(And even in these stories, it’s not so clear; Tom’s greedy and arrogant, and yet he also helps an immigrant kid when no one else will, helps save the life of a suicidal amputee, and is the only one to correctly diagnose the town’s neglectful complicity in the lonely death of a Jewish shopkeeper. He’s complicated too.)
I didn’t mean to imply a story like this is the ANSWER. I mean to imply a story like this hopefully at least gets people thinking about the QUESTIONS.Report
Nah I understood what you (and Oscar) mean and I definitely don’t want to be overly self-serious. We’ve gotten way too self-serious about everything lately and I hate it. And to wit it does sound like a good story for children to ponder. All children must be forced to ponder now and then, lest their brains liquify on video games and happy meals.
But that’s precisely what all this CRT stuff as I understand it doesn’t seem to allow for. We aren’t allowed to ponder the story and come to different conclusions about it. Others have used the term ‘essentialism’ but I think what we’re really trafficking in here is better described as stereotypes. And yea, stereotypes wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t a little truth to them but we also know just how limiting and dead wrong they can be. IMO that’s what CRT skeptics (rightly) object to. Every white person is x. Every black person is y. Don’t question it. And don’t worry about the implications for the curriculum when we take this sort of thinking to it’s natural, reductive, bureaucratic conclusions.Report
Yo.
I don’t think there’s any doubt that being in the majority, which results in dominating everything from government to what goes on television to the content of commercials and the distribution of music on radio stations, plays a big role in institutional or systemic inequality. The culture, the economy, and all the institutions that replicate them, are likely to be dominated by the majority, which will inevitably lead to unfairness and even exclusion.
Then you add in history: redlinining, famously, created not only imbalances in wealth and opportunity in the short term, but long term generational differences in wealth and opportunity. It allowed for differential patterns of policing that persist today. The same goes for everything from credit to medicine — histories that systematically favors some groups over others.
But it’s also worth noting that the cultural, historical, economic, etc. domination of one group creates and reproduces individual prejudice as well, with then feeds back into the systemic discrimination. Police focused on black neighborhoods because they were racist, which led to institutions of policing that perpetuated racial inequality, which led to police who are racist, and so on. This is important, because it’s difficult to get rid of racist institutions of the people who dominate society are racists (consciously or unconsciously).Report
Agreed.
(And hey, good to see you! I look in every once in a while but for some reason hadn’t seen much of you. Hope you’re well.)Report
Yeah, don’t drop in often anymore. Doing well. Got a daughter now! She’s a handful. Looking forward to teaching her some ideas that question the very foundations of liberal order. How’s stuff over your way?Report
Congrats! Busy. Weird. How old is your daughter? They can be a handful all right.Report
Just turned 18 months last week!Report
Holy crap, congrats! Yeah, a toddler sucks up free time and attention worse than a cocaine habit!Report
Thanks man.Report
By the way, you won’t have noticed, I imagine, but periodically the OT alumni have a lamentation section for the absence of Glyph on Twitter.Report
And I continue to think Twitter (and most social media) is mostly Bad For Us. That fiction JB links up top, about an algorithm that divides us?
That’s not fiction, you know. That is in fact how social-media algorithms work. They polarize us; these companies’ business models, to the tune of billions, depend on making and keeping us angry and paranoid and tribal (see Jaron Lanier among others).
And in tune with my other comments, this isn’t what they set out to do (all they wanted was clicks and eyeballs, and the dollars that come with them); but that’s the effect. 😉Report
Man, we just want to talk about music and puns!Report
Well, that I’m always down for.Report
I’m in for that.Report
Another interesting story from The Great Brain is where a Jewish man moves into town and opens a general store, and both Mormons and Catholics agree that since he’s a Jew he’s a thief and a cheat and a liar and they all boycott his store, and he starves to death.
(And then there’s the story where the family gets an indoor toilet and the one kid starts charging money to let the others watch it flush.)Report
Uhhh….that’s not EXACTLY how that story goes.
But yes, underlying prejudices and beliefs converge to result in his death: the Mormons are required by religion to shop in the Mormon-owned store so there goes most of his potential business; John and the other Gentile kids favor the Mormon store because the owner there is likely to give them free candy with purchase, because he can afford to, while the Jewish shopkeeper can’t; no one thinks to check in more closely on the Jewish shopkeeper, because he isn’t part of ANY of the religious groups in town; and there are rumors that he’s got a big trunk of gold hidden away (rumors obviously related to old anti-Semitic tropes), so he’s GOTTA be fine, right?
But he’s not viewed (at least in the story) as a thief and a cheat and a liar, and no one is attempting to “boycott” his store. It’s instead a death of neglect. He doesn’t “fit in”, so no one notices he’s DYING.Report
Oh, good point – which makes it EVEN WEIRDER than I’d remembered, because the Mormon shopowner is very clearly bribing kids to shop at his store!
I think that it didn’t occur to me, at the time, just how interesting it was that the Mormons come off really badly in those stories.Report
Again, I think this is a simplistic reading of what are fairly nuanced stories for kids. You can read what the Mormon shopkeeper does as a “bribe” if you’re being uncharitable; or you can read it as a business owner doing a simple small promotion that he can afford, to keep business at his store.
John’s father is the one who convinces the Jewish shopkeeper to set up shop in town, after the shopkeeper tells him life on the road has become hard at his advanced age, and helps him secure his storefront etc. He’s acting out of kindness, and at no point are the Mormons acting out of malice either. They’re just acting…well, like in-groups act, in a way that looks out for themselves and their own. They aren’t trying to hurt someone else; but that’s the EFFECT.
Which again, is a neat commentary on how systematic inequality can work, without anyone even TRYING to make it happen.Report
“You can read what the Mormon shopkeeper does as a “bribe” if you’re being uncharitable”
I don’t see how else we’re supposed to read it, considering that the outcome of the story was a Jew starving to death because nobody wanted to shop at his store.
“at no point are the Mormons acting out of malice either. They aren’t trying to hurt someone else…”
my dude, that was literally exactly what they did
yeah sure they didn’t actually want him to die, and they were sad when it happened, but it’s not like there was a totally random distribution of shoppers in town and it was a mere statistical quirk that more of them ended up buying from the Mercantile. Sure, they described it as “well we’re just keeping our money in our community“, but if the community includes non-Mormons who are being deliberately excluded from the community’s wealth and resources, then that comes out the same way as, say, white suburban towns saying that black children aren’t allowed to attend the “non-urban schools”.Report
Why quote me only up to the point where I continued “;but that’s the EFFECT”? and then re-word that same sentiment yourself? Who are you arguing with? Doesn’t seem to be me.
The stories are IMO making the point that it’s NOT random statistical distribution that created these outcomes, but rather the effect of systems, and relative numbers within those systems, and individual choices within those systems that in aggregate led to a particular end. And that such outcomes can (and should) strike us as unfair and worthy of at least contemplating if not addressing, without needing to impute any special malice to the participants.
At this point I’ve made what was only supposed to be a somewhat-related sidebar point as well as I know how, so for the sake of not further-derailing the specifics of the larger discussion I’ll leave it here.Report
“Why quote me only up to the point where I continued “;but that’s the EFFECT”? ”
I’m not rewording the same sentiment. I’m disagreeing with you. They knew what they were doing and they were doing it on purpose. They meant for him to be hurt.
“The stories are IMO making the point that it’s NOT random statistical distribution that created these outcomes, but rather the effect of systems”
No. No, no, no. It isn’t an impersonal guilt-free “effect of systems”, it was specific decisions by persons to make What Ethnicity Is That Guy a part of their decision calculus, to exploit their advantages. If you want to use this story as a moral lesson about how Sometimes Things Just End Up Divided Along Racial Lines With One Side Disadvantaged And It’s Nobody’s Fault then that lesson is suspect because that isn’t what happens in the story.Report
“[S]ystematic inequality can be as much a NUMBERS game as anything else; it doesn’t require villains consciously trying to perpetuate it…”
But that’s the thing — the Mormon kids were perpetuating inequality, in the sense that they were exploiting an unequal distribution of resources (fat kids) to dominate a competition that was, in theory, supposed to be equal for all players. Like, the Mormon kids weren’t saying “well the Gentiles have got some little guys, we should have little guys too so it’s fair”. And more than that, they knew that was what was up, it wasn’t like a complete surprise to them that the Gentiles had fewer big kids, not like “gosh all this time we just thought you guys liked having little kids on your team”.
So, yeah, Tom rigged the game, but it’s not as though the inequality was mere happenstance and the other players totally innocent.Report
I suspect one reason that anti-Semitism has been tough to deal with is the numbers game. Fighting for minority rights when the minority is around 10% of the population is easier than dealign with a minority that is often 1% or 2% of the population like Jews are.Report
It’s funny you should mention this, because storytelling, according to Delgado, is a big part of critical race theory. I joke about critical theory being the opposite of critical thinking, but it seems to me that the primary function of storytelling in CRT (among other uses) is, in fact, to bypass critical thinking. When someone tells a compelling story about how something could be true, a lot of listeners won’t stop and ask if it actually is true.
So we can tell just-so stories about how systemic privilege could work all day long, but it’s crucial to stop and ask whether the story actually fits the data. A big problem with CRT is that it doesn’t actually do that in most cases. It’s critical race theory, not critical race rigorous causal inference.
One major problem with this story is the existence of market-dominant minorities, which are actually quite common. In the US, the highest-performing groups are not white Christians, but Indians, Jews, and East Asians. I guess you can argue that white gentile in-group bias is actually holding them back, and they would be outperforming us by even more without it, but having conceded the point that privilege and oppression do not drive all gaps in socioeconomic outcomes, we can’t then turn around and insist that gaps going the other way can only be explained by systemic racism. Even if you can tell a plausible story about how it might be.Report
The invocation of “market-dominate minorities” is disingenuous. The usual creation process involves the ruling group allowing them to emerge because they consider commerce icky rather than market dominated minorities emerging through sheer will. Many of times, market dominated minorities were purposefully allowed to exist because middle men were needed to interact between the elites laboring masses.
It’s also important to note that in the United States Indians and East Asians didn’t rise to their current economic status until after the CRA and INA passed and Jews tended towards the lower rungs of the middle classes until after WWII. In other words, after formal open racism was no longer allowed.
The model minority is just invoked so Shite people don’t have to do anything because of the poverty they directly and felonious inflicted on Blacks, Native Americans, and Hispanics.Report
“…so Shite people don’t have to do anything…”
Possibly the best typo, ever.Report
in the United States Indians and East Asians didn’t rise to their current economic status until after the CRA and INA passed and Jews tended towards the lower rungs of the middle classes until after WWII. In other words, after formal open racism was no longer allowed.
Yes, this is exactly right, but you’re totally misinterpreting this fact. After whites eased up on racial discrimination, the socioeconomic outcomes of Asians and Jews very quickly converged with and even surpassed those of whites.
The key takeaway from this is that, contrary to the CRT story, truly exogenous poverty is not sticky. When the forces suppressing earnings and wealth acquisition are removed, regression to the mean happens very quickly, within a generation or two.
We see this in studies of intergenerational income and wealth mobility as well. The intergenerational elasticities of income and wealth are only about 0.4, which means that if a couple makes $20,000 per year above or below average, then their children will on average make only $8,000 above or below average. Note that because of heredity, the true causal effect of parental income is significantly smaller than this, although I haven’t seen any good estimates. Same deal with wealth.
Anyway, we’re told that an important part of the reason black Americans have low wealth and earnings today is that their grandparents had low wealth and earnings. As we can see, it just doesn’t work that way. Regression towards the mean happens far too quickly for that to be a major factor.
This is why, after successfully erasing Jewish achievement, the academia and the media are working overtime to erase Asian achievement. Evidence against the stickiness of purely exogenous poverty must be suppressed.Report
The Great Brain books are awesome.
Let me ask you this: Were the “give all the kids measles at once” parties pro-vax or anti-vax?Report
You want illiberalism in racial discussions, here you go:
Angry conservatives erupt in violence over Fox-hyped anti-racism lessons
https://www.rawstory.com/critical-race-theory-2653501778/
This is the goal. Hysteria and threats of violence to shut down discussions that make white people uncomfortable.Report
Wasn’t it the Loudoun County School Board that shut down the discussion which was making them uncomfortable?Report
My understanding is that all this started when pro-CRT teachers and parents including some on school board created a Facebook page to target opponents for hacking, cancelation, etc.Report
Crab bucketing.
It has nothing to do with anything even in the ballpark of the stuff CRT is talking about.
Dennis Sanders wrote a lovely article about the disconnect here.Report
Freddie points out this observation from Chris Hayes:
If the argument were “Jaybird, you’re not opposed to CRT. You’re opposed to bad DEI! Well, I’ve got news for you, *EVERYBODY* is opposed to bad DEI!”, I would say something to the effect of “okay, fair enough”.
But “CRT” is now a signifier for “bad DEI” and bad DEI does seem to be leaking into various classrooms.
And arguing over whether or not bad DEI is “really” CRT strikes me as besides the point. The people who don’t want CRT taught in the classroom might be satisfied with the bad DEI removed from the classroom (but the CRT actually kept there, what little of it there is because everybody knows it’s an obscure academic set of theories and not something that would be taught in elementary school anyway).
If the compromise position is “no more Robin DiAngelo in the classroom”, would that be something that everybody is cool with?
I understand that nobody has heard of her anyway.Report
I get what you’re going for here. But DEI and CRT have grown up together, and any program based on either is going to have been influenced by the shared environment. So, is “no bad DEI or bad CRT” such a bad formulation? Isn’t it ok if we use Swedish pop sensation Robyn DiAngelo’s ideas and words when they’re right, and not when they’re wrong?
“The country has a rocky racial past.” The only heads shaking no are hidden behind hoods.
“The country has a bad racial present.” Me and some others question the statement.
“The country cannot be anything but racist.” The crowd erupts in protest.
And yes, ideally we get good statistics so we’re not basing our acceptance solely on crowd support, but there are normative decisions as well as positive ones.Report
As Chip points out upthread – there are plenty of statistics that point to disparate outcomes by race in the present day US. Luckily for you and your fellow travelers those statistics cannot by their nature measure intent. Which means you can keep head in the sanding the notion that racism is structural in the US, rather then the individual choices of a few morally bad actors. How convenient for you.Report
You can speculate on intent; I prefer to talk about structures. Which ones are racist? How can we prove their racism? Keep in mind that I don’t consider racial disparity as proof of racism. What changes can we make to improve them? Please present examples.
Also, grow up with the “head in the sand” “fellow travelers” stuff, or I’m going to call you a traitor every other comment.Report
At least you are upfront about your bias here. It also means you and I can’t have a meaningful discussion because you are already decided that a potential cause of the issues (which is framed by intent) we might discuss isn’t valid.Report
Show me a law that treats people of different races differently. Show me an official who does that, a college, a bank. Some institution that can be fixed, and I’m right there with you.
Otherwise, yeah, as I’ve said before (and as you clearly realized based on you 12:35 comment), I don’t consider disparities to be proof.Report
Apply that logic to the Soviet Union, or modern Hong Kong, or any other repressive regime.
They all have guarantees of freedom and laws which are facially neutral.
The whole point of systemic injustice is that the police know who to arrest, the judges know which people need to be convicted, the regulatory agencies know which restaurants and churches and clubs to deny, they don’t need to be told.Report
Crack cocaine sentencing guidelines result in sentences 2-3 times as long as powder cocaine sentences. Most offenders sentenced for crack cocaine are black. Thus Black Americans are sentenced more harshly and longer because of which version of cocaine they use.
And go!Report
You’re trying to smuggle racial disparity statistics in, and I said I won’t consider those. I remember when crack hit the inner cities, and the black elected officials campaigned for the laws you’re talking about. I’m not a user; it’s my understanding that cocaine is more addictive in rock form. If the legislature thinks that crack should merit a greater penalty and they’re wrong then it should be opposed as bad law, but not as racist law.Report
2-3 times as long is an improvement from how it was originally.
You’re never going to believe what happened in the mid-80’s. Never in a million years.Report
Some important historical context here is that crime was out of control in the 80s. And nowhere was it more out-of-control than in the urban black neighborhoods where crack was popular. And the brunt of that was falling on the black people who lived in those neighborhoods. Nobody wanted crack out more than they did.
In space and in time, crack was correlated with violent crime. Powder cocaine was correlated with…producing records and trading stock, I guess? Was this due to any meaningful differences in pharmacological properties? Probably not. But that was a widespread belief at the time, which is why the 1986 drug bill was cosponsored by 3/4 of the black members of Congress.
Should the sentencing disparity be eliminated? Sure, that seems reasonable. I’m okay with full legalization.
But there’s a lot of historical revisionism from the left about how this was a purely arbitrary distinction created in a white conspiracy to keep black people down, and this is not actually compatible with the historical context or voting records.
Also, what this law actually does is treat different crimes differently, not different people differently.Report
At the root of this, I think, is a racist idea that black people are all basically interchangeable, so if you put a black crack dealer in prison for a long time, that hurts all black people. But that’s not how it works. Like white people, black people are individuals with diverse and often competing interests. Many law-abiding black people wanted crack dealers off the streets, no questions asked, the longer the better, because it was in their interest not to have to deal with the collateral damage of the crack trade. For much the same reason, there’s a lot of opposition in black communities to “defined the police” and other accommodationist policies of the left.Report
I mentioned above that crack was seemingly faster addicting, but it also seemed to do more damage to the brain. I can’t testify to this, but the impression was that a snorter could clean up his act more easily than a smoker. Was this just because wealthier people snorted cocaine, and could afford better treatment? I don’t know. Certainly, crack was perceived as a bigger danger.
Also, I don’t remember a “cocaine baby” phenomenon, but that could be simply a matter of news coverage.
Oh, one other thing. People laugh at the idea of gateway drugs these days, but the powder user was less likely (or slower) to end up on heroin or PCP as far as I know.Report
That’s the thing though, the law itself, the text of the bill, is not explicitly racist. It says nothing about treating black suspects more harshly than white.
It’s the application of the law. It’s how hard do the police go after the crack dealers and users, it’s how often and what kinds of plea deals do white cocaine defendants get versus black crack defendants, etc.
That’s how the racism expresses itself, not in the law, but in the execution.Report
Again, this gets back to the problematic conception of “The Black Community” as a single unitary other. If police don’t focus their efforts in the places where crime is concentrated, then that has a disparate impact on the law-abiding residents of those areas. Which, again, is why this law was overwhelmingly cosponsored and signed by black Congressmen.
Take race out of the equation. Suppose that everyone’s a racially ambiguous corporate PR model, and there are just some places where drug users prefer crack and other places where drug users prefer cocaine. And we’ve noticed that crime rates are going bananas in the latter, and not in the former.
Is it unreasonable for lawmakers to crack down harder on crack, and for police to focus enforcement efforts on areas where crime is high and crack is popular?Report
Reverse “latter” and “former” in the last sentence of the second paragraph above.Report
You keep looking at this as block activities, rather than looking at the reality of what happens. Basically it’s a case of ‘Broken Windows’ run amok.
If police had gone into black communities and solely focused on crack dealers and the violence stemming from the drug trade, the impact would be less. But they didn’t. They went after every little thing that could boost their stats or get them some of that lovely federal drug enforcement money. 4th amendment violations abounded (Stop & Frisk wasn’t just a policy in NYC), but you need a good lawyer to run those down. And the DAs weren’t offering sweet plea deals unless those busted for possession or use had a bigger fish to offer up. Cops would use any little violation they could as probable cause to arrest someone, and even if the charges never stuck, getting arrested could cost a person a job, and incur fees they can’t afford to pay.
And don’t give me the whole ‘if they were law abiding…’ pap. Three Felonies a Day isn’t just a catchy phrase, law abiding people break the law all the time, police just usually don’t care. Unless caring about it serves the interests of the police, then they look at the community they have an interest in and examine the laws, and literally strategize about what they can use in that community to hook people up.
In the ‘burbs, enforcement was lower, and plea deals more available. Police weren’t looking for every little thing, because halfway decent lawyers could get those tossed.Report
I could theorize that what happens is that very bad things are allowed to happen to certain people (Such as inner city communities with no prospects) leading to rappent drug addiction and, thanks to illegalization, drug violence. Which then causes communities, again, even Black communities, to be willing to sacrifice a lot to just get it to stop.
That sort of thing seems to keep happening over and over. The unequal social and economic structures in this country lead to problems among minorities, which then _itself_ harms mostly minorities (Because, duh, they’re the ones there), which then would turn around and result in them demanding _more_ policing…which in turn makes things worse in general…
…well, until they’ve all grown up in feedback cycle system and figure it out, and say fuck the police. But the odds of that happening are…wait. I guess they already did. Who could have seen that coming.
You know, honestly, I think I could make some sort of full fledged legal theory from this sort of thing. I wonder why no one’s ever thought of it before.Report
You’re cherry-picking. You’re looking at the data for whites and blacks, asserting a universal law based on those two data points, and ignoring the data points that contradict your assertion, like Jews and Asians. This is the swindle at the heart of CRT. When you look at the totality of the data, it becomes blindingly obvious that it just doesn’t fit. See also my comment to Lee about the stickiness of exogenous poverty.Report
I think an important takeaway from the response to the recent push against CRT is that, contrary to claims that have been made in the past, Cleek’s Law absolutely is a two-way street. A bunch of people who had never heard of CRT or any of its myriad offshoots until a couple of months ago are now fervent defenders, solely on the grounds that Republicans (and libertarians, and moderate Democrats) are against it.Report
If you were hoping to read a Mencius Moldbug essay on banning CRT, I have good news:
I feel for the guy. He’s had a rough year.Report
Btw I just read the scissor statement story and it’s really good. Got any more?Report
When we were researching euthanasists for Cecilia, Maribou found the story The Goddess of Everything Else when I was asking her whether there was a God/Goddess of Cancer.
It helped.
Meditations on Moloch is probably the most accessible of his crazy stuff. He wanders through Ginsburg, Discordianism, and the Transhumanists.
The Toxoplasma of Rage explains the Culture War.
The Control Group is out of Control opens with the line “Allan Crossman calls parapsychology the control group for science.”
Answer to Job is his take on Theodicy.
I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup is the one that I think might have made it to your circles around the time that it was published as it kinda went viral everywhere.
Radicalizing the Romanceless is the one that gets called really offensive and, as such, I cannot recommend it. This is the main essay that got him categorized early on as Wrongthink.
There are many who will tell you that you should not read Scott Alexander because he is Bad. So I should probably tell you that you should probably avoid him if you want to avoid reading people who are Bad.Report
Also he refuses to ban the discussion of certain topics in his comments sections, and that’s another reason he is Bad.Report
Eh, nobody reads comment sections anymore.Report
I think by ‘Bad’ you mean racist? Cause that’s the normal criticism. He’s…uh…a little too friendly with eugenics and other forms of ‘race science’.
But anyway, don’t not read Scott because of that.
Don’t read Scott because Scott is a bullshit artist who spends a a hell of a lot of time discussing things without actually saying anything except weird opinions not supported by anything, not even the things he’s pretending to discuss in relation to them.
Here’s a pretty good critizism him with using the example of ‘I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup’, completely dismantling every single part of that essay, and how Scott talks in general:
https://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/the-beigeness-or-how-to-kill-people-with-bad-writing-the-scott-alexander-method
It’s not as long as it looks, half of it is comments.
I kinda wish some people here would read it. It _completely_ dissect his utterly stupid argument method, where he just basically rambles in random ways, relating things with absolutely no connecting tissue or concept of scope, and is often just very very wrong about things, or assigns them weird meanings that can’t possibly hold up to any sort of logic and if you just came across them alone you would find them utterly stupid, but it doesn’t matter because before you figure out that he’s moved on to something else.
I could quote from that, but actually, I’ll take a hint from the article itself and quote _Scott_ and his stupidity:
Look at that without being prepped by Scott’s bs. The entire premise is obviously wrong. (And on top there’s seemingly a weird assumption that we _should_ hate ‘Muslims in general’ for some reason? I think his racism/xenophobia is peeking through there.)
This entire concept exists in within a framework where he argues that some people celebrated Thatcher’s death more than bin Laden’s, which is not a thing that is real.
What people did, as the comments at the time on his article point out, were to criticize Thatcher being _praised_ by everyone, including the media. When her legacy is, in fact, utterly horrible. This pushback creates an image of conflict.
Whereas the only people who were upset about people being happy about bin Laden were the moral outliers who were upset with the idea of taking joy in anyone death, and 99% of the people talking about his death were entirely willing to say they were glad he was dead, so _no one needed to say it_. You don’t say things everyone believes!
But Scott just premises his entire article on the idea that they were the same people to some large extent, that the ‘Blue side’ was happier with the death of Thatcher than the death of bin Laden. He has no evidence of this, he has no awareness that ‘pushback’ is any sort of thing. He just goes with it, justifying it by claiming it’s his own experience, except…you don’t get to extrapolate from your own experience that way. You can’t take your own experience and build entire sociological theories about them. You can use them as examples, sure, but you need actual real data.
Not only does he does this with his own experiences, he does it with random stories and how many people comment on posts, and everything. He builds entire goddamn philosophies out of _nothing_, because he’s really good at rambling long enough that, when he gets to a point, you assume he must have been saying something to support that point along the way.Report
I think by ‘Bad’ you mean racist?
Worse than that. I mean “heretical” and “WrongThink”.
And on top there’s seemingly a weird assumption that we _should_ hate ‘Muslims in general’ for some reason?
I think it’s for similar reasons to those that we might hold Young Earth Creationists in contempt. He spent an entire section talking about them in the essay before he wandered to talking about Muslims, you see (his essays are sort of a holistic thing… if you skip over section two, you might miss something in section three). You know that they believe that all men are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God? And that God made a blood sacrifice of His Son? And now he’s okay with people but only if they believe that the world is 6000 years old? lol
Muslims? Well, you have to understand. They have a different culture.
This entire concept exists in within a framework where he argues that some people celebrated Thatcher’s death more than bin Laden’s, which is not a thing that is real.
It’s kind of a phenomenon that, at least *I*, have seen before. When you do a thing, it’s a matter of principle and I’m going to need you to explain why you’re so willing to abandon your stated principles at the drop of a hat. When I do a thing, well, the world is a complicated place that has competing ideals and when they come into conflict, sometimes one wins and sometimes the other wins.
But Scott just premises his entire article on the idea that they were the same people to some large extent, that the ‘Blue side’ was happier with the death of Thatcher than the death of bin Laden.
This phenomenon is also one that *I* have seen. It’s not that they were happy with the death of bin Laden. It’s that it was tacky to be happy with his death. The death of a person is a solemn thing. We shouldn’t dance on a grave.
Thatcher? Did you *NOT* see any “ding dong” posts? *I* saw “ding dong” posts.Report
“Did you *NOT* see any “ding dong” posts? *I* saw “ding dong” posts.”
Yeah Jaybird but he can imagine that there were people criticizing those posts, therefore you’re wrong!Report
Yes, congratuations, you’ve notice two different sets of posts.
The premise here is actually that _the same_ people. That this is, in fact, the behavior of ‘a side’.
When in reality, when someone important and hated dies, there is always a group of people celebrating their death. Especially, again, if anyone is _praising_ that person, so they are in an ‘argument’ with those people, as opposed to everyone just hated the deceased so no one feels the need to step forward and correct any whitewashing, because there isn’t any.
That is one group of people.
And there is a different, somewhat detatched group of moral scolds saying ‘Don’t celebrate the death of anyone’, that say this in general. They do this in a fairly consistent manner, about everyone.
Does anyone have a single example of A PERSON saying ‘We should not celebrate the death of bin Laden’ (1) who then went on to celebrate the death of Thatcher? A single one?
No? Then why are we letting Scott get away with pretending that this a thing?
1) Well, cavaet there: There are a few people who pointed out that, politically, killing bin Laden wasn’t going to be anywhere near as useful a lot of people seemed to thing. But saying ‘I hate to put a damper on the celebrations, but this might not have the result we think it does’ is not the same as ‘We need to tamp down the celebrations because it is Wrong to celebrate someone’s death’ or ‘We need to tamp down the celebrations because the man was not that evil’, which is, again, what Scott is claiming happened. And those two last things aren’t even the same thing.Report
Tempted to find somebody (I figured that I could start at Crooked Timber) and then realized that it would become “Fine, you found *ONE* person. That still isn’t evidence that Scott Alexander noticed similar on his facebook feed!”
As for your caveat, I want to say that Dumbya Chimpself said that he didn’t care about bin Laden anymore years before the alleged death. This, I want to say, put a damper on anybody who wanted to point out that Osama just didn’t mean that much anymore, lest they be compared to the most terrifying modern President since Herbert Walker.
Do you still need me to find a single example of someone pivoting from “every life is sacred” to “HA! Someone important to the Outgroup died!”?Report
Scott _himself_ pointed out that he didn’t remember if any of them were the same people. The quote:
https://web.archive.org/web/20141020023140/http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/if-a-clod-be-washed-away-by-the-sea-europe-is-the-less
So, no, Scott did not notice something similar on his Facebook feed. In fact, he explicitly _didn’t_ notice it, as he says he has ‘no data’, and him noticing even one person doing it would be ‘data’.
He just sorta made up the entire premise, because he just vaguely _knows_ there’s a large overlap.
This is how Scott works.
Addition: And notice how his vague idea that the group is ‘larger than anyone would predict’ then turns a truism, and into _a trait of the Blue Team_ in his ‘I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup’ essay.
He takes a claim _he himself_ made, where he’s not sure if it’s the same group of people in 2013, to _later_ in 2014 asserting it’s “From this exact same group of people…”Report
I also feel this calls into question that ‘The worst reaction I’ve ever gotten to a blog post was when I wrote about the death of Osama bin Laden.’ claim.
We can still read the comments on that archived post, and…either he has a very skewed idea of what the worst response is, or it happened in a very odd way that kept it completely out of sight of the records.
I can’t talk about what response he saw on Facebook, or what other people said in other posts on LiveJournal, but it seems very strange that none of those people really seemed to follow him back to his blog and respond where it was posted.
And note there’s someone responding on that post in _2016_, if you move forward in the archive Comments are closed now, but they were open for years. And no one really said anything.Report
I also feel this calls into question that ‘The worst reaction I’ve ever gotten to a blog post was when I wrote about the death of Osama bin Laden.’ claim.
I want to say that “Radicalizing the Romanceless” probably has the top spot. (And, checking the dates, he wrote Radicalizing the Romanceless a month before Anything but the Outgroup… so if you want to say that he ought to have said “to that point” or added any number of clarifications, I wouldn’t disagree.)
Or the one that resulted in the NYT piece.Report
No, I’m not saying that he was ‘incorrect’ with the level of reaction…I mean, I don’t really care if that literally was the worst or if something else was actually slightly worse. I understand hyperbole.
I’m basically saying: I don’t think there was a backlash at all.
My point is for something that supposedly got a lot of backlash, it seems to have amazingly few negative comments on it, and even those are fairly polite.
Again, I can’t see his Facebook, but he also said it got bad reactions on Livejournal…where we can see the comments…and yes, I’m aware there were other ways to discuss things on Livejournal, it’s just somewhat inexplicably almost no one negatively responded _on his post itself_.
Did he _delete_ the comments? Seems like there still should be some trace of them, even if he deleted the yelly and rude objections, there still should be a lot of _polite_ disagreement, right? And he doesn’t seem to moderate comments at all, as evidenced, by a lot of criticism for him not doing that and leaving up fairly racist things.
I’m pretty sure this supposed backlash to that article is something Scott just _invented_, inside his head. Which is somewhat ironic, because it’s invented backlash about him writing about something he also just invented inside his head!
Scott is _really good_ at talking about that sort of vagueness and how he feels about things, claiming some sort of ‘personal experience’, and then pretending what he said has some sort of factual basis and drawing huge conclusions from that.Report
Pity about stuff like the New York Times article and the response to the Radicalizing the Romanceless essay, then.
I mean, it completely gave him examples of stuff that, to that point, we could dismiss as there not being any evidence for that sort of thing.Report
Oh good.
Yeah, the thing where one is arguing against two different groups of people and person from Group 1 argues stuff like “Norms are important!” and person from Group 2 argues stuff like “You don’t have to uphold norms against bad people!” and since you’re arguing with both groups, you feel like you’re arguing against a monolith that argues hypocritically.
It’s important to keep in mind that the people you argue against are people and not representatives of The Other.
That said, occasionally you *DO* find a person who pivots from one to the other.Report
W saying he didn’t care about OBL after failing to get him? Aesop had a phrase for that.Report
“Here’s a pretty good critizism him”
it is such a great example of you and your manure that you criticize Scott Alexander for spending “a hell of a lot of time discussing things without actually saying anything”
and then you approvingly cite a takedown post
that you caveat with “It’s not as long as it looks” (emphasis added)Report
This just in: Response to very long essay very long.Report
counterpoint: i can tolerate anything except the outgroup is probably the only useful and readable bit of writing he ever created.
it’s still faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too long. but very prescient for having been written in 2014.
getting hung up on this specific example (which, living in nyc at the time, jived with my experiences – maybe you hadda be there?) ignores the larger point concerning the mechanics of outgroup selection. osama’s death was celebrated by one group and thatcher’s another, because – in large part – of the sports bar alignments which make it necessary. it’s a team sport of meaning (NOT THEM) and purpose (THEY SUCK).
it’s why everything feels reflexively predictable right now – it’s sports bar all the way down.
written another way by another person, and one who used say the last ten years of american conservative alignment with hyperconservative authoritarians in russia and eastern europe, something that would have been utterly unimaginable in the 1980s, would probably be more amenable to you as an example, even if the mechanics wouldn’t actually change.
“you don’t get to extrapolate from your own experience that way.”
it’s lived experience all the way down, bruh. sorry.Report
shorter modern example: wearing a mask so you’re not mistaken for a republican/not wearing a mask so you’re not mistaken for a not-republican.
i live in trumpland like a UN observer and watch this nonsense play out on the daily.Report
That’s a perfect example, and one Scott would have used, and thus misused, because he doesn’t understand anything.
Are there vaccinated people who mask so they won’t be mistaken for Republicans? Yes, sorta, except ‘Republicans’ is the wrong word, I’ll get to that in a second. But that is, indeed, often pure signaling behavior that Team Blue is doing to signal what side they are on.
Let’s assuming mask-wearing while vaccinated is not a ‘good’ thing, that it’s entirely neutral signaling, it has no more use than a MAGA hat. This is wrong, even if we completely ignore Covid we’ve now decimated the flu and there’s no sense in stopping. But we’re pretending.
What Team Blue is signaling that they aren’t on the side of…uh…sociopathic behavior that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans. (We’ll never actually be able to tally the number, but it’s not unthinkable that their reckless behavior added _at least_ 20% of the American deaths.)
This is the “It is weird that people don’t want to say ‘niggardly’, even when they know it’s not racist in origin” discussion. That’s not actually weird. It’s not weird to not want to be thought of as a bad person by publicly doing things that are _mistaken_ as bad behavior but are not.
And the bad person here isn’t technically ‘Republicans’ or ‘Team Red’, the bad person is ‘sociopath who kills a bunch of people by licking rats during the plague and spreading the plague to more people through their deliberate action’.
The fact that Team Red _picked_ that sociopathic position is not Team Blue’s fault! No one made them do that.
I would suggest that if Team Red doesn’t want Team Blue virtue-signaling that they aren’t Team Red, Team Red should, you know, not do overtly evil/stupid things that kill hundreds of thousands of people. I mean that’s just a weird random thought I had.
I mean, _both sides_ could currently be virtue signaling by wearing a mask even after being vaccinated, signaling they aren’t like those few idiots who refused this entire time even though no one was telling them to do that. This would indeed stop some small amount of deaths. We could have both ‘virtuously’ worn masks for another year! It wouldn’t have hurt anyone!
—
And the thing was, the Team Red has been trained _so well_ to just randomly do this sort of outgrouping that plenty of them accepted this completely random, extremely dangerous, and outright sociopathic behavior as an ingroup signifier.
Which seems like it should be a pretty important fact in politics, right?
The fact that Team Red were willing to take that thing, something that literally could kill them and others, and in fact _did_ kill them and others, and turn it into one of the ‘team rules’ is very very VERY telling. It shows how they think about the world, about politics, where everything is literally just a game and has no meaning besides waving their sport team’s flag. Team Red is utterly unserious, without actual political goals except ‘sort into groups, hurt the other group’.Report
He’s a scissor, ain’t he?Report
Scott writes long posts because he’s seen far too many arguments of this form: “here’s my edge case that you didn’t consider, and you didn’t consider it on purpose because you’re practicing Me-Erasure, this means you’re a dishonest person and everything you say is wrong”Report
i think he writes long because he’s never had an editor and settled into bad habits as “style”. it just so happens that in one essay it actually works – it yarns along, but eventually wraps up into a better-than-average finish – whereas anything else by him had me tapping out in the first four paragraphs.
writing with an antagonistic mindset set aside for only bad-faith or exceptionalist arguments makes for a whole lotta word salad, because it is a distraction from whatever your central point should be. this is another place a good editor can be helpful.
there’s room for some amusing comparisons to judith butler. someone who provokes a lot of heat and light online (mostly from people who either haven’t read anything by them, or who thinks of them as some sort of guru) but generally creates semi-readable texts with a lot of layers of potential meaning extraction.
(i did finish gender trouble, but it involved a lot of prodding from an outside party)Report
Me: he just basically rambles in random ways, relating things with absolutely no connecting tissue or concept of scope, and is often just very very wrong about things, or assigns them weird meanings that can’t possibly hold up to any sort of logic and if you just came across them alone you would find them utterly stupid, but it doesn’t matter because before you figure out that he’s moved on to something else. Here’s a specific example:
You: getting hung up on this specific example (which, living in nyc at the time, jived with my experiences – maybe you hadda be there?) ignores the larger point concerning the mechanics of outgroup selection…
LOL. Way to agree with my point. Yes, that specific example is bad…in fact, all the specific examples are bad, as that essay points out. I’m not going to take every single one and dissect them…the essay I linked to does that! I’m not going to dissect every one of his examples…read the counterpoints essay.
And if Scott writes an essay where every single example is bad, guess what? It’s a really bad essay. It also means the conclusions it comes to are nonsense.
Here’s the problem, though: Scott, and possibly you, are trying to both-side things, trying to pretend this is _identical_ behavior from both teams.
Which is…hilariously stupid when his examples are things like German Nazis and German Jews not getting along, and he spins that example by so fast you don’t quite notice that not only did he, somewhat nonsensically, imply that German Nazis should be more tolerant of German Jews (Weird take on the situation but not technically inccorect.), but he also implied that German Jews should be more tolerant of German Nazis. Which…no, they shouldn’t?
Even if we take a step back and charitable think he means Germans should have worked to get along _before_ the Nazis shows up out of that (Which is not what he says.), how exactly did the German Jews fail at this?
When you actually pause and read his gibberish, he both-sided the holocaust. Now, he didn’t do that explicitly, and probably not on purpose, I don’t think even he put that together in his head, but if you take the conclusions that he supposedly comes to from these examples, and apply it back to that example, that’s what you get. That the Nazis and the Jews needed to be nicer to each other.
He picked that example! Not me!
And even leaving the Nazis out of that…what, should the Irish Catholics have been politer to oppressors who invaded their country? What?
But his examples aren’t actually there to lead to his conclusion, they’re just there to lull you into the idea that he’s built some sort of massive framework that his conclusions slot into.
And, dammit, I just dissected another of his examples, right after I said I wasn’t going to.
—
And, just as a step back…notice now Scott’s examples are all over the place, from rudeness toward the dead to genocide.
I have to suggest those are, uh, slightly different things. Just slightly. This is taking tone policing to the extreme. This is searing ‘rudeness’ across the sky as one of the seven deadly sins.
But Scott thinks politics is a game, a game he thinks has gotten out of control and is much too vicious and rude.
Politics is not a game. The thing he is describing is not a game where people need to tone it down, What he is describing is when one side makes an outgroup and oppress and sometimes even kill that outgroup, and the other side is not automatically somehow at fault too!
And the thing he is describing is happening on one side of the political spectrum to a huge extent, and not at all on the other. Somehow his conclusion totally misses that. Let’s go to his actual conclusion:
This is impressive nonsense in a lot of ways, failing to notice that ‘blacks and gays and Muslims, more often the Blue Tribe’ are, quite usually, one entity. Mostly because that entity is trying to stand in solidarity.
But what gives away the game is is that Scott seems to think it is somehow surprising that people dislike a group that consistently tries to oppress it. That…is…uh…really the opposite of a surprising thing?
I wonder if there’s any examples we could have in history of a group being targetted for oppression by different group, and thus the first disliking the second group for _real_ reasons, not just to ‘make up an outgroup’? For some reason Germany is coming to mind, I’ll have to check if he mentioned them in his examples.
Like, Scott’s own conclusion literally points out his conclusion is bullshit. I don’t l know how he manages that within the conclusion itself, but he does.
His Red Tribe does indeed makes outgroups to target, the ‘slightly different’ people Scott claims is how outgroups work. The Blue Tribe, meanwhile, is not making random outgroups to target, and indeed, seems mostly to have a problem solely with the group _targetting_ it.
Whoa, that’s confusing! It’s almost like both sides aren’t the same!Report
the reason i commented in the first place is because i read the entire essay the earlier this week out loud (and yes i lost my voice) to someone who asked about a comment i’d made about his terminally painful editor-less-ness and was unfamiliar with his notoriety/name/etc. (they are firmly blue tribe, which is why my house has one of those ghastly in this house signs)
honestly, our reading of this particular essay is so far apart i have no idea how to bridge the gap. i feel we read different things entirely, and i will assume that it’s because:
a) you’re very identified with the blue tribe (who only acts in self defense)
b) very clearly aligned against the red tribe (who only acts in malignancy)
c) i don’t have a strong affiliation, so what reads to me more like a 10,000 ft view describing behavior clearly hits you like a 1 foot view (myopic, misguided, offensive) with potentially sinister undertones.
d) the conclusion is actually one of my favorite parts, because it acknowledges the shared human-ness of the problem, and the distorting effects it creates.
have a good weekend.Report
Uh, no, I read that essay exactly how you read that essay.
I just actually look at the things it’s using to reach its conclusion and realized that every single one of them is utterly bogus.
See, that’s what’s called ‘begging the question’. You ahve already decided there are tribes. There are not tribes. There are a few groups of people who treat politics like sports, and could in theory be called ‘tribes’, although that is an extremely stupid term and ‘fans’ is a much better one.
But the thing is, the thing that Scott’s analsis completely ignores, is there are actually _people impacted by politics_. Politics isn’t a game of sports…it a civil trial. In addition to the jury/players who decides the thing, and the spectators in the galley/stads, there are _actual people who are harmed by specific outcomes_.
And thus people often have positions that are not because they are ‘fans’ of people, but are decided mostly on utilitarian grounds.
Seems like this is a _very_ important point that, somehow, is literally unmentioned by Scott. It’s like talking about who wins in trials without mentioning the actual people on trial, but explaining it solely as some sort of weird abstract discussion.
And note I’m _not_ saying that’s only one side that is impacted by policies. There are people who are legitimately threatened by ‘blue side’ policy.
It’s just something like 90% one sided. Because one side, the ‘red side’ actively operating a culture war against a group of people with the intent of harming them, and the other side is…not doing that. The red side _imagines_ a lot of harm, but most of that harm is boiled down to ‘How dare you take away my right to tell you what to do!’
Again, that is not to say that a few people cannot be _harmed_ by the proposed policies of the blue side, but it’s almost entively a _side effect_ of those policies helping people. It’s not deliberate maliciousness.
Don’t be absurd. The red tribe, to a massive extent, operates in favor of supporting the wealthy, not malignancy.
The overt malignancy is just how they get poor white people to support them.
Then you are a priviledged person who has never had your status threatened by the ‘political game’
Anyone who thinks politics is best explained by ‘tribes’ is a person like that. Incredibly priviledged with no self reflection.
We literally just had a ‘the police need to stop shooting black people in the streets’ movement called BLM.
And today is near the end of Pride Month, a month-long celebration of a riot against the police inspecting people’s genitalia and arresting people when they didn’t like what they found.
And the people impacted by those things live in the blue tribe, not because they like the team colors better, but because the red tribe _literally wants to continue doing those things that harm them_.Report
The police answer to local communities. The local communities squeaking about this are mostly run entirely by Team Blue.
You’re describing a Team Blue (BLM) vs Team Blue (gov unions, big city gov, & cops in Team Blue run cities) political fight as Team Blue opposing Team Red who is trying to kill people.Report
Isn’t it a standard critique of government bureaucracy that the bureaucracy DOESN’T answer to the political authority?
That for instance, just because you have a liberal district attorney, the prosecutors and police and judges might be deeply opposed to his agenda?
Because that is exactly what is happening right now in Los Angeles, where the prosecutors have blocked their boss with lawsuits an defiance.
The idea that Blue City=Blue Cops doesn’t really describe very many cities.Report
The government bureaucracy needs to cut the budget of the cops, then.
I mean, if they’re *REALLY* blue.
Did they try that?Report
1st, even if true this doesn’t change that the GOP has no dog in the race. If Team Blue owns every lever of political power then the concept that the GOP is being obstructive is absurd.
2nd, in some of these places Team Blue has controlled everything for 50+ years. At what point do we get to say Team Blue has ownership of this?
Blue City != Blue Cops is like saying the Catholic Church has no connection to Priests raping children. The Structure of the institution has led to problems.
Imho Team Blue’s problems with effective police reform is greatly created from Team Blue’s love of government unions. It’s hard to remember now but government unions were a creation of Team Blue in 1960’s.Report
Try to be more Manichean.
Instead of merely seeing “Democrats = Blue”, you should additionally see “Blue = Good”.
This way, when you see something that is !Good, you know, automatically, that it’s !Blue.
Which means that it’s probably Red.
Therefore, the police are Republicans. So are the politicians. Maybe they have a (D) by their name, but they’re secret Republicans.
Otherwise they would be Good.
Before you wave this away, just hold it up and be amazed at how much explanatory power it has.Report
Very well put.Report
Rudy ‘Broken Windows’ Giuliani is a Democrat? George H.W. Bush, modernizer of the DOD to police industrial complex for weapons and equipment was a Democrat? Daryl Gates was a Democrat?
Look I don’t even totally disagree with you. Democrats own a lot of this. Unquestioned support for unions and using police jobs as spoils for urban machine politics are definitely blue baggage. But the ‘cities are blue therefore team red gets to wash its hands of this’ is totally ignorant of the history that got us here. The problems we have with law enforcement challenge assumptions across partisan lines which is a major reason it’s so vexing.Report
There are 51 seats in the New York City Council. The political break down is Democrat (46), GOP (3), Vacant (2). This is pretty typical. Even if the GOP somehow unites with “Vacant”, they’d still have less than 10%.
If you’re trying to claim there is the occasional Red island in an otherwise ocean of Blue, you’re correct. If you’re trying to claim that it matters, I don’t understand why. There are other cities where team Blue has been running things with very close to 100% for many decades and they’re hardly examples of well-run police departments.
The GOP has close to no power at a local level where reform needs to happen. There are Red run cities (i.e. the suburbs), there are even elements of the GOP who don’t see a point to reform, but the suburbs mostly don’t have predatory police departments at odds with the voters.
Big picture this is a Blue city issue where Team Blue runs the show.
It is possible that Team Blue can’t effectively stand up to the police unions they created. That doesn’t change that this is a Blue on Blue battle.Report
This is the same kind of revisionist history woke progressives engage in when they talk about crack/power cocaine sentencing disparities as a symptom of white supremacy.
The GOP has used ‘soft on crime’ as a wedge political issue since the Warren court and that has had profound policy impact, including places where they do not hold electoral power. Graham v. Connor was written by CJ Rehnquist. The GOP went right along with the federal government feeding a GWOT bonanza to local police. They supported aggressive DEA task forces deputizing local police and changing their culture to a drug war mentality in the 80s and 90s. The omnibus crime bill in 1990 was a thoroughly bi-partisan effort.
Lots of these problems are fed by federal incentives and policy decisions, and last I checked, the Republicans have held sway there every once in awhile over the last 40 years. What you’re arguing is similar to saying Democrats have no responsibility for how Medicaid works in ruralia because they don’t hold office there. The states administer it but many of the incentives and directives are set at the federal level. This position you’re taking is just as evidence free as the people in planet blue who suddenly learned about the issues with law enforcement over the last 18 months and decided they were the good guys all along, history be damned.Report
We can stipulate that “Tough On Crime” is a truly bipartisan sentiment, and that the majority of Americans are responsible for the state of police unions, QI, “stop & frisk”, “no knock” raids and the like. It was the American voters who regularly elected tough judges, tough mayors, tough legislators an tough governors who all promised to crack heads and make the rabble obey.
Even now, take a look at some of the commentary regarding the spike in murder rates. The default “Savvy Pundit” take is that ruh roh, this is gonna be bad for Democrats.
In other words, the “Soft on Crime” playbook is still there, still potent, just waiting to be used to defeat any progressive reformer.Report
IMO it’s evidence of a set of real and difficult problems of the sort that partisan lenses are particularly bad at analyzing. Crime can be a particularly serious and terrible problem, and it absolutely was for decades. But then so can police overkill and lack of standards and accountability.Report
Yes, absolutely. This doesn’t change that they’ve largely been out of power at a local level in many/most of these places for decades.
For the militarization of the police? Sure. Fully agreed. For the war on drugs, ditto.
However Oscar has repeatedly pointed out the military manages to be militarized while also having effective reviews of misconduct and also with having good command and control.
The military doesn’t allow soldiers to be unionized, nor to appoint their own bosses, nor to mess with the chain of command, much less remove from the military brass the ability to fire people. When we look at why police reform is hard, we’re instantly transported to local politics, police unions, culture, and so on.
Federal involvement is largely limited to the Feds (occasionally) trying to reform various departments illegal/dysfunctional behavior. There are no federal incentives to not be able to fire the police or review their (mis)conduct.
Hard on crime policy/politics creates problems. Those problems won’t go away if we have full police reform. IMHO those problems are much greater than the problems we have by letting the police not be accountable.
Even with non-racists robots as cops, mass incarceration of Blacks would still be a thing because of the drug war and black dealers selling openly. But that has nothing to do with police accountability because that’s the police doing what we tell them to do.
Police accountability+reform ideally means Floyd’s killer gets fired for brutality before Floyd is killed, less ideally it means he goes to prison after Floyd is dead. Police accountability+reform does nothing for mass incarceration and so on.Report
I agree with you on a lot of this but I think you’re mistaken to draw a hard line between the tide of militarization/4th amendment issues/federal policy and the (lack of) discipline in the localities. Each of these things informs the other. Things that happen in big cities inform perceptions and policy reactions nationally. Court cases from one jurisdiction are persuasive authority in others. Model laws and standards from influential places are adopted by less influential places. Federal agents and agencies embed and influence local ones. And so on.
So while you’re right much of the fight is local I would say success in those efforts is going to be much more difficult as long as the feds have their fingers on the scales. It’s sort of like how prohibition of (certain) drugs could never work without local and state involvement. And it won’t work if one of the major political parties decides writ large it has no role.Report
I think the reason why the (Team Red) suburbs don’t much care about police accountability isn’t because their police are accountable, it’s because their police have less opportunity to misbehave and are asked to do less. The suburbs are a lot less multi-cultural, and they have less of an underclass to keep down. There is less cultural disagreement on the law thus there is less law breaking.
In the big cities, the police deal with (multi)cultural problems and it’s criminalization. They also have social problems being moved to the poorer areas.
Scale matters. A police department of 40 in a rich area will have a union that is manageable compared to the citizens. A police department of 20k will have a union that is the political wrath of god. Similarly the bottom 1% of the department will be 0-1 cops in the former and 200 cops in the later.
Federal incentives have created problems and enhanced the opportunity for police misbehavior. That doesn’t change that controlling police misbehavior is on Team Blue’s plate, nor that their love of unions has made controlling misbehavior much harder. IMHO the Feds make lack of police accountability worse but they don’t create the underlying issue. The image of the brutal cop long predates the war on drugs.Report
The suburbs are a lot less multi-cultural, and they have less of an underclass to keep down.
Saying the quiet parts loud.Report
Multi-culturalism isn’t just about food choices. Go back and re-read what I said about my relatives.
Keeping poisonously dysfunctional cultures from coming to my neighborhood is easy. Keeping them from killing each other is harder. Uplifting them is harder yet.Report
Now you’re just shouting them.Report
I think of it more as “describing the problem”.
If we don’t describe the problem correctly, then we’ll be shocked when “getting rid of racism” doesn’t change anything.Report
Ahem. We are talking about why people are on ‘teams’, not _actual results_.
The reason that the sort of people who tend to be shot by police are on Team Blue is that Team Blue at least _asserts_ the police should not be shooting Black people in the streets!
As opposed to Team Red, which almost always goes out of their way to justify it when it happens, often even literally at the expense of _other_ supposedly important beliefs like ‘The government has too much power.’ and ‘People should be able to walk around with guns’ (We’ve had like, what, three Black people carrying _legal_ guns shot under a justification that such a thing is ‘threatening’ and grounds for the police to shoot someone, implicitly voiding all second amendment rights of Black people, and the NRA being utterly silent about that? (I mean, before the NRA collapsed.))
The fact the people that Team Blue tends to elect don’t _do_ anything about the situation, and in fact are the people indirectly in charge of the situation, doesn’t really change the fact that Team Red is actively cheering it on and Team Blue at least _pretends_ to be abashed and _makes words_ about fixing it.
In fact, I’d like to propose some sort of theory that all white voters are basically racist and don’t care about what happens to Black people, and our entire system of government is set up to function in such a way as to prop up that status quo, and the only actual difference between white Republicans and white Democrats is Democrats at least somewhat acknowledge this and sorta feel bad about it but still don’t really care or do anything to undo the situation. But such a theory would, probably, end up being illegal to teach in schools or something. (Yes, I’m going to keep doing this gag this entire discussion.)Report
And, yes, I know it sound somewhat hypothetical to switch back to talking about teams right after I pointed out they didn’t exist, but let me clarify: There are vast swathes of white straight ‘normal’ voters who are unaffected by politics and treat it like teams, or rather more ‘fandoms’, I think fandoms is a better term.
And they are on both sides. Just cheering their side on, hoping they win, without really any goals except to win.
And everyone else, the people not operating in fandoms, the people who _get impacted by these things_…if they can’t make decisions based on the behavior of elected officials (Because, with police, there’s almost no daylight between the sides), end up asking themselves ‘Which fandom seems to openly wish me harm and which fandom doesn’t?’Report
Don’t read Scott because life is short. If you’re going to read something really long, try Moby Dick or the unabridged Count of Monte Cristo.Report
Or better yet, watch Bill & Ted, where they discover that like, all we are is dust in the wind, dude.
That is, if you are in the mood to see a young man suddenly discover a banal truth but present it as the most mind blowing insight, and then become filled with an unbearable sense of superiority.
Shorter, punchier than SSC, and has dick jokes.Report
This is a really good thorough run through of the mottes and baileys in CRT.
I feel like the Hoffer Principle applies here easily, as one can get the impression that modern DEI training is at the racket stage. The problem is that the modern right media environment is, for the lack of a better word this early in the morning, so incredibly efficient that they can speed-run the principle in record time – much as we’re seeing right now.Report
Honestly, any sort of thing that is business consulting and is aimed at medium and small business is incredibly likely to be mostly racket. There are probably a few exemptions, but I’m not sure I know what they are.
I find it sus we only seem to care about the ‘Diversity Equity and Inclusion’ consultants and not, say, the ‘personal empowerment’ consultants or ‘efficency’ consultants.Report
bro
people aren’t out there telling us that Due To The Historic Legacy Of White Cishet Oppression there is a Moral Imperative that we hire “‘personal empowerment’ consultants or ‘efficency’ consultants” and make their recommendations a core part of our organization’s culture and fire anyone who speaks out against that ideaReport