Up The Union
In one of the greatest moments in American rhetoric, FDR leaned to the microphone to announce publicly that D-Day had commenced, and then lead the nation in prayer for the in-progress Allied invasion of Normandy. His words weaved imagery of home and loved ones with the brutal realities of a world at war. Though framed as a plea to the Almighty, it is one of the greatest speeches on the necessity of fighting for freedom, the cost such fighting demands, and how the price must be paid, though it be high. “Lead us to the saving of our country,” he intoned to close what is now known as “A Mighty Endeavor”, “and with our sister Nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.”
The enemy of peace and prosperity — to both our great nation and the world, and the greatest threat to this, the greatest experiment in human history of a free people self-governing — is always the schemings of unworthy folks. The power-thirsty who will fill their mouths with their doublespeak of law & order and patriotism while their hands work against both and their hearts burn with resentment at the limitations such things place on their own ambitions. Machiavellian parasites who declare they are doing the right thing but insist it can only be done the wrong way. This is what makes them unworthy to be entrusted with something so precious as the future of the coutry and the relative peace and prosperity modern America enjoys. You cannot do the right thing the wrong way, and the unworthy folks would rather burn it all down than not get their way. Such a mentality of self before all is the antithesis of patriotism, of freedom, of law and order, and most of the rest of the buzzwords the unworthy treat as incantations to try and make their desires manifest into reality.
Now we have those in America who, upset that the election of 2020 did not go their way, are choosing to once again trod the paths of unworthy scheming in an attempt to get what they could not otherwise obtain. “Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the Constitution,” Texas GOP Chairman Allen West mused in a released statement after the “Texas Lawsuit” was summarily dismissed by the Supreme Court. “The Texas GOP will always stand for the Constitution and for the rule of law even while others don’t.”
What insipid, duplicitous nonsense. Spouting law and order out of one side of your mouth while musings of unlawful secession drool out the other is disgusting enough on its face. The underlying reasoning, the need to grift so hard that you must destroy the country just to keep your unworthy scheme going, makes it even more so. That both are now being perpetuated under a flagrant lie — that Donald Trump somehow, someway, against all available evidence and common sense, won the 2020 presidential election bigly and everyone is conspiring to steal it — is utterly depraved to someone who dares call themselves an American patriot, a former Army officer, and one-time US Congressman from Florida. Those experiences and qualifications mean that West, short of actually losing his mind, knows well and good exactly what he is proposing and insinuating here. He wants to be the champion of the keyboard warriors and LARPing social media revolutionaries that are utterly convinced they will be the heroes of a second American revolution and the legendary figures of the coming Second Civil War. Some of these wannabe new-age civil warfighters have no concept of civil or war or much of anything outside their own self-created bubbles.
They should heed the words of a master of the art of civil war, who warned: “You people speak so lightly of war; you don’t know what you’re talking about…You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with.” William Tecumseh Sherman surely knows more of civil war than TruPatriotMAGA8675309. Far from the existential issues of human freedom, representative government, and the rights of nations and states, these online warmongering dullards want to rend the country in two over…Joe Biden and Donald Trump? Two men who, with all due respect, will be footnotes far down the list of presidents of note a generation from now. Far from the actual American Civil War that Lincoln called “a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure,” this is mere online, masturbatory chest-thumping bravado.
We’ve heard this garbage before, almost verbatim. The screams and demands of civil war in the name of states’ rights, as if that consideration alone is the ultimate authority in the land. States’ rights above all other considerations is at the heart of the now-dismissed Texas filing, with the writers of that lawsuit arguing that it was other states that were to blame and “led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Pennsylvania…Michigan, Wisconsin…have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them.”
Oh, wait, my bad, that was actually South Carolina’s argument to “form a Union of states that will abide by the Constitution,” to use Allen West’s phrasing, when the Palmetto State formally seceded from the Union. For their part, Texas at the time declared “The States of…Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan…by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 4th article of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate the amity between the members of the confederacy”. Both states were referring to slavery-related issues in their 4th Amendment arguments, but when your 2020 argument can so easily be cut and pasted into the declaration of causes of seceding states ready to defend the unmitigated evil of slavery with force under the guise of state’s rights, you got problems.
Combine that with the habit of the right wing fringe to openly call for a new civil war, or threaten one if their various and ever-evolving demands are not met, and you have a powder keg of stupid, mixed with ignorance, fueled by arrogance, and armed with the technological ability to only ingest self-affirming information. Which people like the Allen Wests of the world shovel into their soft minds as fast as possible because their own Grifting Matrix needs the bioenergy and disposable incomes of the plugged in faithful to keep the whole system from collapsing into reality. What better story to tell those upon which the grift is reliant for its very lifeforce, that by breaking from the rest of the world they are the warriors for truth, they are the only ones who really understand, they and only they can understand the world as it is presented to them through the narrow funnel of only friendly sources. It’s wickedly brilliant, a self-contained impenetrable ecosystem where the cost of entry is making yourself self-contained, impenetrable, and fully reliant on that system. This is the tactic of every unworthy schemer in history from dictators to cult leaders to fully control people.
Wicked as that is, the truly horrifying variable is the truly demented and twisted among those listening to all the calls for open warfare and destruction and killing very well might pick up weapons and start executing their plan for civil war in the real world. Most of those pounding the keyboard for civil war don’t really want to get their hands dirty with pesky things like combat. They believe themselves to be some protected class of online opinionator that would be exempt from the true horror that civil war has inflicted on every people that have ever had to suffer through one. Or maybe they confuse their online avatars, slogans, and memes for what they are truly capable of, not understanding what happens at the business end of the weapons trained on not just willing combatants but the innocent caught in the middle. Others think the wrongs of their political and ideological opponents justify any amount of retribution they might seek against them, be it rhetorical or physical.
We’ve heard this garbage before, almost verbatim. The screams and demands of open warfare when the political process of laws and elections don’t give the aggrieved the result they want. “A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile…This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.”
Oh, sorry, no that was South Carolina’s declaration of causes of seceding again. Again, remove the terms and references to slavery and the language is shockingly similar, as the darker parts of human nature, untethered from basic human concepts such as all men are created equal, tend to migrate to a similar place. In its own declaration of causes of seceding, Georgia specifically mentioned “The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state.” The cry for states’ rights was, again, just the nomenclature and cover for what the true goal was: subjugation of others under a pretense of law and order.
The intolerable wickedness of slavery might be in our past, but those same human failings that allowed such a horrible national wound, whose scar still threatens to bleed anew if not cared for, remain. That unworthy folks are so given over to their own passions that they would now openly abandon the country they have spent years using their supposed love of as the excuse for everything they do, shows the ability to maintain the veneer of excuses is slipping. They are not an on-the-rise revolutionary movement as they suppose, or tell each other, or convince themselves they are. By abandoning the very processes that give them freedom and a voice in the first place they show their ignorance to what it is that makes America work.
There is nothing new under the sun, and so once again we come to it. The peace and prosperity of the United States of America is threatened by the scheming of unworthy folks. Folks who could not get what they want with ballots now feel justified in any number of schemes against whoever it is they think has wronged them. The hypocrisy of those same folks insisting the last presidential election meant carte blanch for their viewpoints because elections mattered then, now find themselves repudiated by the most recent election. In their ignorance they cannot see that a temporary electoral setback does not mean an end to their freedom, blind to the fact that threatening the whole foundation of the nation very well might. In their increasing rage they scream law and order while at the same time justifying why they should break the former and are right to shatter the latter. And in their unmitigated greed, the Allen Wests of the world insist the only way to truly love the country is to kill it, or at least all parts of it that are not acceptable to the whims and fancies of those who didn’t love the country enough to endure a minor inconvenience like a lost election, or slow down in fundraising, or a lessening of their own power and role in the grand scheme of things. And now the truly dangerous and unhinged leading edge of retribution rhetoric calls for open civil war, the worst of things that can befall a nation. A blight that last time saw 2% of the population dead, millions more affected, untold economic damage, moral scars from the failed reconstruction after it, and the bungled and far too long processes integration of an enslaved people into full citizenship that our nation is still dealing with to this day.
Anyone, regardless of their prior accomplishments, titles, experiences, or appeals who calls for secession or civil war is not doing so for the good of America. They are not after the peace and prosperity of all, or the rights of all citizens to purse them. They are not “merely asking questions” or being clever or coming up with anything new. It is not quite treason, narrowly defined by the Constitution and the Supreme Court as actually “levying war” against the government or “adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort,” not just talking, conspiring, or hoping for it online or for fundraising. But the same wicked spirit is there, and those skirting that line for personal gain should be seen, marked, and called out for what they are: the unworthy schemers who, far from wanting law and order and freedom, only use such words to entice others into subjugation. Such folks have always been, and always will be. And they must be constantly contended against, and defeated, and scattered to the far recesses of our society generation after generation, if the Union and the Constitution are to endure. And endure they must, if the greatest experiment in a free people self-governing is to outlive the unworthy schemers constantly arrayed against it. Both from within and without.
Yes, 9-1-1? I’d like to report an enormous fire.Report
Relevant:
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Well done, agree with every line. Damn fine writing!
Meanwhile the Jerecho March concluded in DC and was televised split screen with constant ads for Mypillow.Report
Yeah, Andrew, get some!Report
Bravo.
Also, I don’t want to hear any garbage about how calling that piece of crap in the White House “illegitimate”
is exactly the same as threatening secession and civil war.Report
It isn’t, but we.actually did see the left-wing equivalent of this this summer, when leftists were peacefully rampaging through the streets, looting, pillaging, and setting buildings aflame, over equally delusional grievances, while the media carried water for them (and not to put out the fires).Report
Not only that, but the tweets and comments and articles about how the those who supported “that guy” should be 1) put in “reeducation camps” 2) exterminated 3) fired from their jobs, etc etc etc
The amount of tonal deafness is amazing.Report
As we speak, the Michigan statehouse is closed to protect the electors from credible threats of violence.Report
Those whom the left managed to get fired were not run out of employment for supporting the president – they were ousted as vile racist and white nationalists who were calling for and then often perpetuating violence in service of their cause. Indeed many of those same fine folks keep showing up armed at government facilities and the home of government officials, quite nakedly trying to use their arms for intimidation. Responding that hey need to be run out of the body politic for their bordeline sedition seems quite appropriate to me.
Then again since you claim to not be a part of the process by voting I’m not sure why you care, much less why you think we should let you care.Report
1) I hate hypocrisy. When someone criticizes one side for doing something and then later turns around and does the same thing, I notice, and frankly, all those of goodwill regardless of side, should notice it too. One side doesn’t have the lisc. for goodness or evil.
2) Assertions of violence should be taken seriously, and I do, whether they be from the left or the right. Other people seem to be blinded when “their” side does it. I’m not.Report
Again, Violence at the Black Live Matter Protests this summer was by and large – according to law enforcement – perpetrated by aggressors from the right. So I have no idea what hypocrisy you think you are calling out.
The left isn’t rousting homeless people in Seattle. The left isn’t shooting leftist protestors in Portland.Report
Actually, the left is rousting homeless people in Seattle. There is no right-wing in Seattle government to speak of. There is center left, and hard left.
The right wing all moved east.Report
fairly certain the cops doing the rousting aren’t crunchy granola typesReport
And who tells the cops to do the rousting? The cops don’t want to go in and roust a homeless camp. Anything goes sideways and they end up looking like crap, and SPD already has enough of a PR problem.
SPD is happy to leave the camps alone until the public outcry gets to be too much and they are told to act. Why is there public outcry? Because the homeless camps attract vermin, they attract criminals, neighborhood appeal goes down, and petty crime goes up.
I don’t care how far left you are, when you are dealing with some manner of impact from petty theft for the third time in as many months, you start calling the mayors office.Report
Are all those fine upstanding citizens willing to pay additional taxes to house or feed the homeless? Such solutions exist – they have even been tried in Seattle – but they cost money, which the homeless don’t themselves have.
One of the reasons Defund the Police is still so popular on the left – Barack Obama’s flip response not with standing – is that defunding the police shifts resources to deal with those problems. You don’t want homeless encampments you have to move money. For a long time. Maybe even permanently. And you have to address the reasons why people are there in the first place.
That takes hard work and dedication. Calling the cops to run the camps off is easy. Disastrous, but easy.Report
Maybe, maybe not, but the thing is, all those fine upstanding citizens lean left.
Thus my point that it’s not right-wingers rousting homeless camps.
And Seattle spends a crap ton of money on the homeless, and gets very little in return because it spends more money naval gazing than it does helping people.Report
This is really only because this country has defined left as center, and a lot of people who say they are on the left, and performatively act like they are on the left, are actually pretty center.
It’s very easy to start saying ‘That’s No True Scotsman’, but the political spectrum are not defined by people on them, they aren’t some pre-existing grouping like ‘Scots’.
The political spectrum is instead a map about a bunch of various different philosophies generalized together and mapped out, and people do sorta have objective positions on…or, if they don’t, it’s because they’re smeared out on it, but that smear occupies specific locations.
If ‘people on the left’ are voting for the police bothering the homeless, then those ‘people on the left’ are not actually very far on the left. At least, not in that particular way. (But probably not in other ways also.)
Which is, of course, something BLM is already extremely aware of. Almost every major city that is operated by Democrats is operated by a collection of mostly conservative Democrats.
That’s actually how it works, and our framing of that within the party system is really silly, because the parties being ideologically pure at the Federal level is fairly recent, only a quarter of a century-old for Republicans and exactly _now_ old for Democrats. And it certainly hasn’t filtered down to the city level.
Seattle is not a ‘left’ city. It is a Democratic city with an extremely thin veneer of wealthy white liberalism.
All you really have to do to check this is say the phrase ‘Property values’. Any government that prioritizes ‘property values’ over an actual societal good is not operated by ‘left-leaning people’.Report
It’s left in that there are a lot of hard leftist people running about, and the city council panders to them hard.
But those people don’t pay the taxes.
Still, all but your most stalwart leftists will start demanding the police do something when they have to keep paying to replace things/repair damage from petty theft. The whosits and whatsits of the homeless camp won’t matter a lick once the crime starts to spike. Never doubt the ability of people to appeal to authority once they stop feeling secure in their homes.Report
“[…]and the city council panders to them hard.”
No, they don’t. If you think they do, then you either don’t live in this city or you don’t know what you’re talking about. Or both.Report
I live on the East side, I pay attention to Seattle politics.
Obviously Sawant grabs all the headlines (Herbold and Morales also come to mind), but the rest all claim to be Democrats and hew Progressive to some degree or another. Perhaps not hard enough for you, but I’m not seeing anyone on the city council telling leftists to go pound sand.
At best, Durkin is trying to be center left, given how often she backs to SPD even when they are obviously crap.
But there is nobody in city leadership I would call even remotely center-right.Report
If your definition of “center-right” is “kisses Amazon, Tableau, Cray, Zulily, and Redfin’s butt”, everybody in city leadership is a Nazi.Report
I’m not talking just about protests and such. I’m talking about twitter posts, and articles written, and speeches, and personal video, etc.
There’s plenty of people on the left making statements about how those on the right should have violence used on them for:
1) being trump supports
2) not wearing a mask-or questioning it’s effectiveness, or thinking that gov’ts been too heavy handed in areas
3) I could go on and on.Report
Tell you what – when the same people on the right agree to stop calling me a traitor to the US for being a liberal and voting for democrats we can talk.
Otherwise grow the thick skin I keep being told to grow and deal with it.Report
The looting and pillaging was done – or so law enforcement kept telling us – by right wing agitators (in many cases out of stateers too) who took advantage of peaceful civil unrest to try and start something.
But sure, no one on the right is in any way at fault, least of all not the current President.Report
This is deeply confused. There are isolated reports of a couple of cases in which right-wingers may have participated in the rioting, or even launched full-on false-flag attacks. I’m not sure how much stock to put in these reports, since the one I did dig into turned out to be misrepresented, with the police report not actually saying what was claimed, but even if all of them are true, there’s still no question that the vast majority of the damage done during these riots was done by left-wingers.
The far right does bad things, too, but trying to pin the George Floyd riots on them is just delusional.Report
You also see the left wing equivalent a lot WRT gun bans/confiscations, where people who wants all the guns taken away are happy to let the police do that.
It’s the exact same crap, people who are just utterly impatient and basically spoiled adults who don’t want to do the work to convince enough people that they are right.
Right, left, it doesn’t matter, it’s hyperbolic BS rhetoric that does nothing to move the ball in whatever direction, and actually gets the opposition further entrenched.
Which tells me Andrew is right that it’s not about moving the ball, it’s about the grift, and keeping the money and status rolling in.Report
Yeah. “We need more gun laws!” will become stuff like “We need more laws like the Bartley-Fox Law!”
“What’s the Bartley-Fox Law?”
“It’s a law that sets a mandatory minimum for anyone illegally carrying a handgun.”
“Yeah, that’s great!”
(A few years later.)
“Why are there so many people in jail? And disproportionately from the wrong side of the tracks?”Report
Good News for Responsible Gun Law Enthusiasts!
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Being murdered by the police is not delusional, particularly immediately after the police murdered someone.Report
Well said Andrew.Report
Applauds. Good stuff.Report
[Commented at the wrong place]Report
You could have just written this and been done:
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“Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the Constitution.”
It is remarkable how much the irony of this statement is lost on him. Like, it makes me wonder if he even knows what the Constitution IS.Report
Yes, a well written piece.
To which I can only add, this is not over, and won’t be for a long while yet.
It occurs to me that most of us- that is, us who came of age in the late 20th century and are part of the dominant culture- have never experienced having to fight for our basic rights and freedoms.
Its easy for us to take it for granted that elections are basically fair and that the government pretty much accurately represents the wishes of the electorate. Other people of course, have understood nd experienced a lack of freedom and representation forever.
Even after January 21st, the fascists will still be here among us, threatening or carrying out legal or violent attacks on our elected government and public institutions, refusing to accept the decisions made by the citizens.
So we are living in a new reality, where we have to struggle every day and every day just to defend democracy.Report
I disagree with this piece.
I’d guess 90% of the politically aware have said things in the past two months that were equally absurd as West’s statement, just as overheated, and just as sincere. There are people who believe they’re good actors, and usually are good actors, who look at some of the legitimate questions from the election, mixed with a lot of distortions, and see something different than most of us do. They see the media not merely failing to entertain the questions, but questioning their own motives for considering those questions, and they don’t trust anyone right about now. And truthfully, when I see a headline like “Supreme Court Refuses Trump Plot to Steal Election”, I’m not 100% sure there isn’t a little editorializing going on there.
And I said questioning the motives of the upset right, but this article doesn’t even do that courtesy. It accuses them of acting in bad faith. Who does that help? Does it defuse the situation? I’d love to know how to reach people who are upset, and while I don’t know what would work, I could almost guarantee that this article would push them further toward the edge.Report
Why does the situation need to be “defused”?
One party won the election for President, and the other party gained seats in Congress and perhaps held their majority in the Senate. Both parties won or lost seats in state legislatures around the country. The election was free and fair and generally represents the wishes of the American citizens.
So why is there some “situation” which needs to be “defused”?
Who is moving to this “edge” and why are they choosing to move there?Report
A large percentage of the population doesn’t believe the election was fair, you may have heard. I think the article mentions them. I believe the article also says that that’s not a good situation. It’s been a while since I read the article, and maybe I should reread it just to make sure, but for the time being let’s just assume I didn’t misunderstand it, and it did say something about things being a bit tense.Report
Why do they persist in believing this, even after it has been debunked in over 50 court cases?Report
Post-modernism.Report
The same reason a bunch of people kept insisting that the 2016 election was somehow stolen by the Russians. The only difference is those people were smart enough to adjudicate their assertions in fact free zones like MSNBC and Congress instead of the courts.Report
Me thinks you doth protest too much – https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/25/muellers-russia-report-special-counsel-indictments-charges/3266050002/Report
Dude. Your own source:
‘But before wrapping up, Mueller’s investigation did result in indictments for 34 individuals – seven of whom have been convicted so far – including some senior members of the Trump campaign (although none of the charges involved a conspiracy between the campaign and Russians).’
If your assertion is that Trump’s cronies are, were, and always have been slimy, corrupt people who should never have been allowed power you will get no disagreement from me. But let’s be real about all the, shall we say, leaps away from verifiable facts being taken and the escalation it feeds.Report
Dude – let’s also be clear that russia and russians were indicted by Mr. Mueller and while he found no conspiracies he chose to prosecute, he didn’t issue those indictments on a whim. I was simply reminding you that those on the left claiming Russian election interference do in fact have court actions to back them up. Of course we also have the conclusions of those lefty commie pinkos in the Senate Intelligence Committee (whose chair for the reports, as now, was a hard core Trump supporter) and the 17 American intelligence services that Russia interfered. They all worked from verifiable facts.
But sure I’m engaged in unhinged ranting. SMDH.Report
You should fact-check the “17 American intelligence services” line before citing it.Report
There are 4 agencies involved in the assessments that the DNI and others have discussed the last 4 years. There are 17 total intelligence agencies – and none of the 13 not involved in the assessments have been reported to disagree with the conclusions as distributed. Over here in government world thats as good as it gets.Report
If there are 140 government agencies which aren’t involved in intelligence appraisals, would you say that 144 agencies cited Russian interference? If you repeat Clinton lines that have been known to be inaccurate for four years, you don’t sound awfully trustworthy.Report
According to former DNI Dan Coates (quoted in 2017 while still on the job) there are 17 intelligence agencies. According to him 4 of them looked at Russian interference. According to him none of the other 13 disagree with the conclusions of the 4. According to him that means the US Intelligence community is in agreement. Last I checked, the DNI is in fact an expert on these things and is legally empowered to speak for them.
Its not a Clinton quote. But sure, dismiss the conclusion because you don’t like the framing instead of engaging with the substance.Report
I never said I was engaging with the substance. I said you should fact-check it, and then explained why. If you want me to engage with the substance, then first tell me how many intelligence agencies said that the Russian interference was coordinated with the Trump campaign.Report
I did.Report
With the Trump campaign?Report
But-but whattabout…!
The Democratic Party did not claim that Russia changed votes.
Russia did flood social media with disinformation and hacked emails. This is a fact, not an opinion.
The claims about this election are fantasies without any evidence.Report
I agree it’s without evidence. As for your revisionist history on what went on over the last 4 years I’ll leave you to it.Report
Why is it tense? Why is there this disbelief?
Because Trumpists are working overtime to allege that somehow, magically, the Presidential election was stolen, but not the mass of down ballot races that went to the GOP?
What should be done about this? How do you defuse that tension? Audits were done, recounts were done, investigations were run, legal challenges were filed, etc.
What else do you propose to do to defuse things? Everyone should just sit quietly by while people like Trump and West continue to stoke the flames?Report
Because Trumpists are working overtime to allege that somehow, magically, the Presidential election was stolen, but not the mass of down ballot races that went to the GOP?
Well, if I were rigging elections, that’s what I would do. Get Trump out to keep the Republicans from doing anything too stupid, and get enough Republicans in Congress to keep the Democrats from doing anything too stupid.
I would really have liked to be a part of this conspiracy, and I’m hurt that nobody invited me to participate.Report
I would love to hear a logical explanation as to how something like that would be pulled off, post 2000.Report
I don’t know how to stabilize things. I know some decent people that I’ve agreed with a lot over the years who have lost faith in the system. I can tell you that fact-checks from George Stephanopoulos aren’t going to help, and we’re paying the price for lacking neutral sources. I mean, was it even a month ago that the networks were telling us that the Hunter Biden story had all the earmarks of a Russian fabrication? Where’s my really strong argument that you should believe the mainstream narrative? We’ve been cashing bad checks at the Bank of Credibility for so long now, I’m grasping for an idea how we can get back to reasonable standards.Report
I can tell you that playing appeasement politics to hyperbolic blowhards is not going to get you anywhere close to where you want to be.
Yes, the media has bankrupted most of it’s credibility over the past 4 years, but that’s merely a connected issue.
Note that the OP doesn’t necessarily go after the everyday Americans who have lost faith, it goes after the feckless pundits and politicians who encourage that lost faith for themselves.
You are a catholic, right? Is that not how the devil works? Wedges in the cracks of human frailty to undermine the institution and faith in it?Report
I’ll reply to Mark from NJ’s similar but longer question.Report
It is absolutely correct and fair to state that the people in leadership positions perpetuating this garbage are acting in bad faith. That doesn’t mean the average person who falls for that is acting in bad faith, but maybe those who fall for it will be less likely to if they realize that the people they are listening to are acting in bad faith.
When they have been asked to present evidence of actual fraud in these cases in court, they have repeatedly and consistently declined to do so. They simply do not make the allegations in court that they make to their followers. Indeed, when asked by judges, they consistently concede and represent that they are not making fraud claims.
In total they have lost 59 cases in court, and probably close to or over 100 decisions at all levels. They have won exactly one case, affecting a few dozen ballots that were never counted in the first place. They have not only lost, but they have lost badly and decisively.
They have lost when the judges have been federal judges and when they have been state judges. When the judges have been elected ans appointed. When the judges have been Democrats, and, mostly, when they have been Republicans. And they have lost many of these when the judges were appointed by Trump himself.
They have lost on standing (meaning they can’t show an injury in fact), and laches (meaning they were OK with the rules before the election and thus implying further their post election claims are in bad faith), and all sorts of other grounds. Including, frequently, the actual merits of their claims, which have been found consistently to be nonexistent under even the minimum of scrutiny.
Yet they keep bringing the same claims in different courts. What lawyers call forum shopping. Which is, again, proof of bad faith.
Perhaps most damning of all, though, is the statement from Thomas and Alito. They would have allowed the Texas complaint to be filed for reasons consistent with their long held views on original jurisdiction (which are reasonable even if long disfavored by the rest of the court). Except theu stated that they would have immediately denied any relief to Texas and Trump. In other words, even they were adamant that these claims are all a load of bs.
Yet Team Trump continues. It’s profitable for them. How many hundreds of millions have they raised that they can readily divert into their own pockets? How much revenue has Newsmax earned with its higher ratings by perpetuating all this? OANN? It is a grift, and these people know it.
I suppose the Krakenites have tried to actually allege fraud in court. Except that in the process they have relied on demonstrably and intentionally falsified documents (eg, removing operative language from an exhibit and then claiming that the lack of that language was proof of fraud), submitting anonymous expert affidavits (which, I assure you, every lawyer knows is not a thing you can do) that were blatantly falsified, as well as other affidavits that were blatantly and demonstrably falsified (eg, claiming MN data was in fact MI data), and even, incredibly, claiming to represent someone who was not their client and file a suit on their behalf without authorization.
And let’s talk about Trump himself. He has claimed that every election that has not gone his way in the last 8 years was fraudulent, every time changing the reasons for his claims after getting caught lying with his previous claims.
He insisted the 2012 election was rigged without any basis. Then he insisted his caucus loss in Iowa was because the party leadership committed fraud and rigged the election. Then he insisted that the only way he could lose in 2016 would be because of illegal immigrants voting; when he won anyway but lost the popular vote, he insisted he only lost the popular vote because of the illegal immigrants and entailed a commission featuring Kris frigging Kobach to report on this. That commission of course fell apart without making a report when it couldn’t find any evidence to support its claims.
Then of course he insisted that Bernie sanders only lost in the primaries because those were somehow rigged, too.
And now he gave us a preview before the election when he repeatedly said, despite all the evidence, that the only way he could lose would be because of fraud.
See the pattern here?
Then to make sure the bs gets traction, he and his toadies threaten anyone within his sphere of influence (which is considerable when you’re POTUS) who dares not play along vocally enough.
It is bad faith intended to deceive millions of people. And in that it has succeeded because those millions cannot believe someone would do such a thing in bad faith. So it’s time to call it what it is.Report
I don’t know what’s in anyone’s heart. When a team of Innocence Project lawyers fight to keep a person from being executed, I’d guess that they pursue every channel that they can think of, even with their long-shots. It seems to me that for every questionable statistical inference that’s being presented as if it’s a fact, there’s a violation of the Pennsylvania Constitution that raises at least an interesting question.
I think my primary point in responding to this article is that I’m worried about the tensions, and I don’t think it helps at all in de-escalating things. A lot of people identify with their leaders, obviously, and are going to interpret attacks on the leaders’ credibility as attacks on their own. Moreover, in the internet age, the term “leaders” is arbitrary, since everyone’s an author and activist. I truthfully have no idea what percentage of each person’s claims are true or false, well-intentioned or bad-intentioned.Report
Bull. Those have been adjudicated as well. They are as non-existent as the ballot fraud they can’t allege in court. As such you can make judgements on the truth of a person’s claims. That you and other’s don’t want to accede to the truth is your problem.
We spent four years being told to “understand” Trump and his supporters. And we do. They are authoritarians who want to preserve white, male, nominally conservative legal and economic power by any means necessary. They do not value “one person one vote” and have no qualms lying to each other and their supporters to achieve that end. They prefer over the top public displays and threats of violence to actually negotiations.
De-escalation would require them to admit publicly they had lied in service of their agenda. For decades. They will not do that. They will not de-escalate. And the left can’t do it for them.Report
I don’t remember the PA Supreme Court ruling on the constitutionality of the process, only on the lack of due diligence.Report
The PA case is a great illustration of the bad faith here. The legislation in question was passed over a year ago. Before the pandemic. It was legislation that the Republicans in PA sponsored. The Republicans in the state legislature supported it UNANIMOUSLY. Elections prior to the general election were held under that legislation.
Not one person challenged it in court even though several lawsuits were filed challenging the implementation of it pre-election (suits that were in fact decided on the merits because they were properly filed).
Then, when it became clear that the wrong person won a single race- by a meaningful margin, no less, weeks after the election, some of the same people who were behind the legislation suddenly decided that maybe the rules they themselves had created were not only wrong, but should be actively reversed retroactively. To their sole and exclusive benefit.
That is the absolute epitome of bad faith – seeking to change the rules that you yourself created after the fact because you don’t like the results. You don’t get to encourage people to act in reliance on the law that you created and then say “oh, just kidding, now your vote doesn’t count at all.” If you tried to pull a stunt like that in a contracts case, you would literally be found liable for “breach of the covenant of good faith,” and possibly even fraud in the inducement.
And it should further be emphasized that even the two justices in PA who would have allowed the case to proceed explicitly stated that they would have done so only on a prospective basis – even they would not have allowed the election results to be touched.
In other words, even they were of the view that if there were an interesting question here, to provide any form of emergency relief/prevent certification would be changing the rules of the game after the game was played.
In other words, whether or not there is an interesting constitutional question under PA law does not change the fact that the relief being sought is being sought in bad faith and cannot be rewarded.Report
I should say “aspects of the implementation” rather than just implementation.Report
The link and I agree that the PA Supreme Court didn’t rule on the constitutionality of the process. Would you like to share more links that agree with me?Report
That’s because it was filed in bad faith.
Had they filed the lawsuit right after the law passed, there would have been time to hear arguments about the constitutional question.
If they want to pursue the lawsuit after the election and get the question answered for the next election, they still can.
But you can not demand the courts tackle that question after the election is underway/over in an attempt to throw out ballots. That is the definition of bad faith, because there was plenty of time to tackle that question, but no one saw fit to file suit back then.Report
I’m mostly onboard with what you and Mark are saying, but I’m not so sure you’re right here. Wouldn’t someone have to lose in an election before they would have standing to contest the rules on which the election is based?
Okay, I probably misunderstand how standing works. But even so, it’s not exactly unheard of to contest a law in court that one previously endorsed or that one had declined to criticize.
Note: I’m not justifying the lawsuits and I agree that almost all (maybe all) of the fraud claims are b.s. and in bad faith.Report
The guy in Pennsylvania won his own election but supports Mr. Trump and so wanted just the presidential stuff tossed.Report
This is incorrect. There is absolutely standing to challenge election laws and procedures before an election. This year, such challenges happened in a number of instances (as I expect they occur in most elections), including the case regarding late-received ballots in PA that remains with SCOTUS at the moment but had a lengthy history in PA. That suit was not decided on standing grounds.
Similarly the cases in Texas pre election regarding drive through voting in Houston, which were decided in the GOPs favor.
Amongst others.Report
Further underscoring all of this: prior to the election, the GOP argument was that you’re not allowed to change the rules of the election too close to the election when people have already begun to rely on the rules already in place. This is a reasonable argument well supported by caselaw and they were very successful with this argument.
Now though they’re argument is the literal opposite, except more extrreme – their argument is that it’s OK to change the rules of the election retroactively and discard any votes made in reliance on the rules in play on and prior to election day.
Even crazier is that, in the case of PA, the rules they are seeking to retroactively change are rules that they themselves created just a year ago.
So they created rules, induced millions of people to rely on those rules and now claim that anyone who relied on those rules that they created should be penalized by having their vote retroactively cancelled to the sole benefit of the people who created the rules.
I can’t think of a better example of a bad faith argument.Report
Say, for the sake of argument, that the expansion of mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania was illegal. Who thinks that the right remedy is to toss millions of ballot cast in good faith and according to the agreed rules in place at the time?
People trying, in complete bad faith, to steal the election. And, to be fair, some honest and upright crazy people.Report
Yup.Report
Thanks Mark (and JS). I guess I misunderstood standing.
I still think that just because someone supported a law and didn’t challenge it doesn’t mean they ought not be able to challenge it after they’re screwed by it.
Of course, that depends on whether they’re actually being “screwed” by the law. In this case, I agree that the Republicans are (to put it kindly) operating hypocritically. And I agree the fraud claims are b.s. and in bad faith.Report
Say the NFL increases the penalty for flagrantly roughing the passer to a 4-game suspension. Midway through the season, after two of your opponents have lost players to that rule, it’s called on your top pass-rusher.
You protest the game, calling the rule unfair and outside the league’s authority, insist that you really won every one of those four games you lost, and tweet “NEXT THEY’LL MAKE US WEAR DRESSES!!!!” ten times a day.
Congratulations! You’re Donald Trump!Report
Sigh. I guess I’m just not doing a good job explaining myself.
Again, I’m not trying to justify the Republicans’ efforts to steal the election. I agree that the their claims are baseless and in bad faith.Report
I didn’t mean you, Gabriel, but a general you, Trump ally. Sorry for being unclear.Report
To elaborate. I’ve made two arguments.
One was about standing, and Mark and JS have shown me how and why I was wrong. I cop to it. I was wrong.
The other argument was about whether one ought to be able to challenge a law that they previously endorsed and may have even championed. I think that they should be able to–in the sense that the fact they once supported it shouldn’t, by itself, invalidate their ability to challenge the law.
As I’ve noted in every comment here, I agree that what the Republicans are doing is making fraudulent, bad-faith claims.
I’ll go a step further: they have lost the chance to challenge the election laws and their remedy is to throw out way too many votes than the purported “harm” caused (i.e., they want to disfranchse voters).
I’m willing to admit that when it comes to certain types of laws, like election laws, the time to challenge the process should probably be before the election, for both practical reasons (that’s when the fix is likely to work best) and for fairness reasons (the fifth down quarterbacking is usually more harmful than the original “violation.”)
I’m not willing to state, as a blanket rule, that the fact someone agreed to or supported a law means they can never challenge it when it’s used against them. I agree that that characterization doesn’t begin to describe the Republicans’ shenanigans. So it’s right to criticize them.
Finally, I’ll admit I haven’t been clear enough in my comments. That lack of clarify bespeaks a certain confusion and ignorance on my part that you–long with Mark, JS, and others–have helped alleviate. So, I guess I shouldn’t have said “sigh.”Report
I think this is something most people skim right past, and it’s actually vitally important. Because what they are asking to happen literally cannot in court. I don’t mean their claims are bad and unproven (they are) or that their claims aren’t even of fraud (they aren’t), I mean the court cannot end up doing the thing they want. Even if every single one of the Trumpist ‘allegations’ were true (Or, rather, if the lawsuit even _made_ the allegations they had been repeating in public), the courts will never, under any circumstances whatsoever, allow throwing out all those votes as a remedy.
Because the premise of these lawsuits is ‘This voting fraud has diluted my vote’. People harmed that way cannot propose, as a remedy, that everyone else _including themselves_ be harmed even more, by not having their vote counted at all, to ‘solve’ this wrong.
This is the equivalent of asserting that some random person ran into your car while it was parked, damaging it, and you don’t know who. So you would like the court to direct that every car in the state, including your own, be crushed in a car crusher. To ‘make things fair’.
Lawsuits don’t exist to try to ‘make things fair’. They exist to try to fix wrongs done to you. You cannot fix the wrong of ‘My vote was counted less than it should have been due to some fraud’ with ‘I demand my vote by not counted _at all_.’
Much less ‘I demand no one else’s vote be counted at all’.
Now you may ask ‘Well, if the courts aren’t going to do that remedy, what would be the proper remedy?’
Well, in a lot of issues, there aren’t actually remedies of existing situations. The constitution lays out specific procedures, and honestly there doesn’t seem to _be_ a way to fix a fraudulent presidential election from within the court system. Or, really, fix it at all. (Besides impeachment, which you can do before they take office.)
The court might require some sort of behavior in future elections, but, sometimes there really is no remedy, and you don’t get to say ‘Well, if the harm done to me can’t be fixed, I demand everyone else be harmed!’Report
I think you can toss out fraudulent votes, but first you have to present some manner of evidence that a given set of votes are fraudulent.
But since no one has presented any actual evidence of fraud (beyond un-corroborated personal statements) that would allow officials to say, “these votes are suspicious and must be examined more closely”.
AFAICT, every eye witness account seems to still be operating on the idea that someone could casually slip in a few thousand votes, or that the machines are rigging the vote. TTBOMK, every state uses control numbers/tracking on votes, so you can’t just slip in a few thousand. It would take a coordinated conspiracy at multiple levels of government, across multiple states, to pull it off.Report
“Wouldn’t someone have to lose in an election before they would have standing to contest the rules on which the election is based?”
No. I mean just for an example: Texas’ had an endless flurry of lawsuits about early voting changes, all starting the instant the changes were made. No one had won or lost. In some cases no one had even VOTED yet.
That “We can’t challenge it until after the election” stuff is garbage — do you honestly think we’ve had a legal and court system for 200+ years that would be that fundamentally broken?
Why do we even have injunctions and restraining orders if courts could only handle things AFTER injury?Report
You’re arguing against a point that Gabriel has conceded. He’s not saying “we can’t challenge it until after the election”. He’s asking whether not challenging something early on can *as a blanket rule” prevent them challenging it later. Gabriel was clear about this.Report
I think the concept that it’s missing here is laches, the unreasonable delay in making an assertion or claim, such as asserting a right, claiming a privilege, or making an application for redress, which may result in refusal.
Challenges need to be made in a timely fashion. You cannot wait until you find out whether the changed rule favors or disfavors you to claim it’s unconstitutional (a claim you won’t make if the rule change ends favoring you)
That’s why the minority in the PA case said they would have taken the case, but only rule on the constitutionality of it prospectively, for the next election.
In addition, you cannot claim that certain types of votes are unconstitutional under PA law, but not others. The constitutional claim is not just with respect to the presidential votes. If the remedy is to toss out votes, you have to toss out all votes because they all have the same constitutional defect. Votes for president, for senator, for representative, for dog catcher. They all have the same problem.
The fact that the requested remedy is only to toss out the presidential votes, but leave the remainder in place is another proof of bad faithReport
Sometimes we just need the middle to step-up and broker a compromise.
Voter ID : Vaccine ID
=
Unity in ID
Of course it is preposterous to question the outcome of the election as illegitimate.
It is, however, a rather preposterous system and we should make it less so. In these fractious days, I think all legislation should be of the “I cut / You chose” methodology.Report
So tag us and release us back into the wild? People have moved to Idaho and shot at ATF agents for less.Report
Well, everyone loses a little bit in a compromise…
Think of it more like building your Citizen Social Presence Score. On the plus side, we’re tightening up the vote and making it more secure, on the negative side we live in a society.Report
The reality is that ubiquitous possession and use of commercial banking institutions, major credit cards, social media, smart phones, etc. probably means that the damage is already done. Nevertheless it turns my stomach into knots.Report
Imagine thinking bankers were just transactional middle men with government sponsored fiat and not the forces for social good we know them to be.Report
They drive much nicer cars than Fiats.Report
Fix It Again Tony.Report
Like everyone else, I think this is a well written piece but like Chip, I think this will get worse before it gets better: https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1338484357389017090?s=20
Kapo Miller informed Fox & Friends that they are assembling an alternative group of electors and will send those results to Congress. This ploy will fail like the others but does indicate we can be heading to a world where Trump tries to set up an Avignon Presidency in Florida. Sadly, I can see a world where Trump tweets an “executive order” (probably something about immigration) and the more thugish members of ICE follow him as “the true President.”
The divorce solution is a simple solution to a complex problem. That problem being the fact that we have stalk cultural-social differences and lots of resentments. These are not going away or dying down anytime soon. But we are divided by census tract, not by state. The U.S. is also too interconnected economically and militarily. What would state of Jefferson bozos do once they discovered that they are cut off from ports on the Pacific for the receipt and sending of goods. Why would the rest of the West Coast want to enter a free trade agreement with them?
It is a lot of insatiable rage without being well thought out.Report
An alternative slate of electors – and the left is the problem.
I don’t know, the shooting war version to actually settle this is becoming less objectionable.Report
As I understand the federal statute, the governors of the states are the ones who transmit the electoral results to Congress. Are Kemp and Ducey on Miller’s side now? Does Miller have alternate governors in the other states?Report
Nope and Nope. Take Arizona. The only way for a legally and constitutionally sufficient slate of alternative electors to go forward would be for the state legislature to appoint them. The legislature is current not in session and won’t be until after 6 January 2021. State legislative leaders have not indicated they will call a special session in the next 3 weeks to address this. So there are no legal electors that can be presented to the Senate as an alternate.
Any court of competent jurisdiction looking at any petition going forward to remove electors or invalidate votes will look at this and then deny any such legal action. At this point its all deeply dangerous undemocratic performance art which could have deadly consequences.Report
“the more thugish members of ICE follow him as “the true President.” ”
Remind me again why we have public service unions that would protect such people from getting fired on the spot?Report
Because those are the only unions that Republicans haven’t worked to break sine Reagan. On account of the fact they mostly vote Republican.Report
All public service unions, or just LE & FD Unions?Report
No one has tried to can off LEO and FD unions. Many municipalities tried to neuter other public service unions by privatizing public functions – only to find complaints went up, service went down. and even the Trump Administration has tried to run unions out of the few places they remain in the federal workforce.
If you meant voting – best I can tell FD and LE unions lean heavily conservative, which inmost places means republican. Most other unions lean liberal, which in most places means democratic. Also last I checked the AFL-CIO isn’t publicly sticking up for the police. But I could be wrong on that.Report
I meant voting, yes.
But I’m equally against all PS Unions, not just AFL-CIO types. I can just as easily see other government employees playing similar games depending on their politics.
Actually, you tell me, if a public sector employee decided to follow an EO from ex-POTUS Trump, is that a fire-able offense, or would the AFL-CIO stand up for the employee?Report
well the AFL-CIO doesn’t represent federal employees, and our unions aren’t aligned organizations.
That aside – yes it would be a fire-able offense. Former Presidents have NO legal authority over current federal employees, civil or otherwise. The federal employee law enforcement unions might get into it if its one of their officers, but as it has yet to happen I have no idea how it would actually be carried out.Report
Thank you, good to know that ideally, it’s fire-able.
Of course, with LE Unions, there are a lot of things they protect members from that I would think are fire-able…Report
Thing is, survey after survey has shown that there actually aren’t a lot of stark differences across our society. There are the far-left and far-right camps, but the bulk of the country sits somewhere in the middle, when it comes down to brass tacks.
The grifters are just selling the hell out of the threats posed by the fringe, because the grift is the thing; and the internet is a great medium for being inflammatory just to get a rise out of people and likes/retweets give everyone that dopamine hit.Report
This is indeed true.Report
This true also of every society that has lost its freedom.
You know that Margaret Mead quote about a small determined group changing history?
It works in all directions.Report
Or Bernard Shaw’s quote about unreasonable people changing history.Report
And yet the Republicans can play to their most extreme base and get elected easily. Many people refuse to believe the Republicans really advocate for far right solutions even if the Republican politicians say it plainly. Republican politicians seem to find the prospects of radicalizing more people the Far Right better than playing towards the middle.Report
I think that’s because conservative pundits have done a fantastic job of making the center-right more afraid of fringe lefties than the center-left is afraid of fringe-right.
Which makes sense, as the center left, being mostly white, has little to fear from far right white power types.Report
Thanks for this, Andrew.Report
Thank you, sirReport
I think that the next (big) step in this saga will come in very deep red states. For conversation sake, without really knowing anything about them, Alabama, Arkansas, Kansas, Nebraska Oklahoma, or the Dakotas, states that strongly vote Republican and tat joined Texas in the Texas vs Pennsylvania litigation
What will be the reaction of a significant percentage of the voters in those states when, after being told, and becoming convinced, about missive electoral fraud, when their state does nothing (I’m not counting the LARPing that was Texas vs Pennsylvania) to confront the illegitimacy of the Federal government and the Biden administration.
Will they take it passively – the Supreme Court ruled against us, tough luck- and move on, or will they demand that the authorities of those states take further action.
I do not see (yet) an scenario where purplish states -like Texas or Arizona- experience any kind of turmoil. The population is very evenly divided, and even if the GOP controls the government, the economic forces lean Democratic, keeping everything in balance.
But I do not see how a governor or legislator in the Dakotas can withstand the pressure to “do something” when 60% of their electorate demands it.
I would like to hear the view of someone that is familiar with states like thoseReport
You missed Mississippi . . . and let me tell you our governor has managed to get himself over a barrel, mostly for COVID mask and stay home order issues. Lots of conservative whit Mississippians are ready to throw him under the proverbial bus for that, which means he is going to be looking for something to save his skin. Our two reliably Trump supporting Senators have stayed out of the fray so far, but my Congressman is one of the 126 . . . .
that said I don’t know that violence comes immediately. I think a LOT of these folks are now guaranteed to be primaried from the Right and given that our state elections are off cycle to presidential elections, that will come first. I also agree with the analysis published on other outlets that solid red states are likely to retrench on mail in voting and ID requirements, the Kansas loss at SCOTUS yesterday notwithstanding.
I think the worse issue is what happens when Trump gets indicted by both NYC and the NY Attorney General . . . .Report
On the plus side, Trump can’t run for President if he flees the country to avoid charges in NY.Report
Why not?Report
Residency claims?Report
Because you can’t campaign if Federal Marshall’s take you into custody.Report
“He’s just like Eugene Debs!”, people will be able to say.
Henry David Thoreau is thrown in jail for refusing to pay a poll tax that went to funding an unjust war. Ralph Waldo Emerson goes to visit Thoreau, he asks him, “What are you doing in there?”. Thoreau’s response was “Waldo, the question is, What are you doing out there?”Report
“I look around this prison and keep asking myself, ‘Where’s Waldo?'”Report
“Appearing at tonight’s debate via Zoom from his undisclosed location in Venezuela, the Republican candidate, Donald J. Trump!”Report
Will they take it passively[?]
For the most part, yes.
They’ve already done what they currently see as their part: sent Senators and loaded up the courts for the next 20 years. They’ve been losing the population war for decades and know it. From 2000, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Mississippi have all lost a House seat. Alabama looks to have dodged the bullet this time, but it will be close.
There will be lots of whining. But none of them are going to declare war on their own urban/suburban areas. It’s one thing for rural Nebraska to be outraged over the (supposedly) massive fraud happening in Pennsylvania. It’s an entirely different thing for them to accuse Omaha, Lincoln, and their suburbs — officially a majority of the state’s population come the census results, and increasingly Democratic — of shenanigans.
I’ve said it before: to win Nebraska, you don’t have to win the really rural parts of the state. Urban/suburban will carry the day.Report
Given that taking it actively would require consequences – such as the six yutzes in Michigan who took their dreampolitik into the real world and were handed federal indictments today – I’m fairly certain they will take it passively. They won’t let you take your MyPIllows and McNaughton artwork into the state pen, after all.Report