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Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has since lived and traveled around the world several times over. Though frequently writing about politics out of a sense of duty and love of country, most of the time he would prefer discussions on history, culture, occasionally nerding on aviation, and his amateur foodie tendencies. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter @four4thefire and his writing website Yonderandhome.com

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121 Responses

  1. Bryan O'Nolan Bryan O'Nolan
    Ignored
    says:

    Yes, 9-1-1? I’d like to report an enormous fire.Report

  2. Avatar North
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    says:

    Well done, agree with every line. Damn fine writing!

    Meanwhile the Jerecho March concluded in DC and was televised split screen with constant ads for Mypillow.Report

  3. Avatar Kolohe
    Ignored
    says:

    Yeah, Andrew, get some!Report

  4. Avatar Mike Schilling
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    says:

    Bravo.

    Also, I don’t want to hear any garbage about how calling that piece of crap in the White House “illegitimate”
    is exactly the same as threatening secession and civil war.Report

    • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to Mike Schilling
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      says:

      It isn’t, but we.actually did see the left-wing equivalent of this this summer, when leftists were peacefully rampaging through the streets, looting, pillaging, and setting buildings aflame, over equally delusional grievances, while the media carried water for them (and not to put out the fires).Report

      • Avatar Damon in reply to Brandon Berg
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        says:

        Not only that, but the tweets and comments and articles about how the those who supported “that guy” should be 1) put in “reeducation camps” 2) exterminated 3) fired from their jobs, etc etc etc

        The amount of tonal deafness is amazing.Report

        • Avatar CJColucci in reply to Damon
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          says:

          As we speak, the Michigan statehouse is closed to protect the electors from credible threats of violence.Report

        • Avatar Philip H in reply to Damon
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          says:

          Those whom the left managed to get fired were not run out of employment for supporting the president – they were ousted as vile racist and white nationalists who were calling for and then often perpetuating violence in service of their cause. Indeed many of those same fine folks keep showing up armed at government facilities and the home of government officials, quite nakedly trying to use their arms for intimidation. Responding that hey need to be run out of the body politic for their bordeline sedition seems quite appropriate to me.

          Then again since you claim to not be a part of the process by voting I’m not sure why you care, much less why you think we should let you care.Report

          • Avatar Damon in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            1) I hate hypocrisy. When someone criticizes one side for doing something and then later turns around and does the same thing, I notice, and frankly, all those of goodwill regardless of side, should notice it too. One side doesn’t have the lisc. for goodness or evil.

            2) Assertions of violence should be taken seriously, and I do, whether they be from the left or the right. Other people seem to be blinded when “their” side does it. I’m not.Report

            • Avatar Philip H in reply to Damon
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              says:

              Again, Violence at the Black Live Matter Protests this summer was by and large – according to law enforcement – perpetrated by aggressors from the right. So I have no idea what hypocrisy you think you are calling out.

              The left isn’t rousting homeless people in Seattle. The left isn’t shooting leftist protestors in Portland.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Actually, the left is rousting homeless people in Seattle. There is no right-wing in Seattle government to speak of. There is center left, and hard left.

                The right wing all moved east.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
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                says:

                fairly certain the cops doing the rousting aren’t crunchy granola typesReport

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                And who tells the cops to do the rousting? The cops don’t want to go in and roust a homeless camp. Anything goes sideways and they end up looking like crap, and SPD already has enough of a PR problem.

                SPD is happy to leave the camps alone until the public outcry gets to be too much and they are told to act. Why is there public outcry? Because the homeless camps attract vermin, they attract criminals, neighborhood appeal goes down, and petty crime goes up.

                I don’t care how far left you are, when you are dealing with some manner of impact from petty theft for the third time in as many months, you start calling the mayors office.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
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                says:

                Are all those fine upstanding citizens willing to pay additional taxes to house or feed the homeless? Such solutions exist – they have even been tried in Seattle – but they cost money, which the homeless don’t themselves have.

                One of the reasons Defund the Police is still so popular on the left – Barack Obama’s flip response not with standing – is that defunding the police shifts resources to deal with those problems. You don’t want homeless encampments you have to move money. For a long time. Maybe even permanently. And you have to address the reasons why people are there in the first place.

                That takes hard work and dedication. Calling the cops to run the camps off is easy. Disastrous, but easy.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Maybe, maybe not, but the thing is, all those fine upstanding citizens lean left.

                Thus my point that it’s not right-wingers rousting homeless camps.

                And Seattle spends a crap ton of money on the homeless, and gets very little in return because it spends more money naval gazing than it does helping people.Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Oscar Gordon
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                says:

                Maybe, maybe not, but the thing is, all those fine upstanding citizens lean left.

                This is really only because this country has defined left as center, and a lot of people who say they are on the left, and performatively act like they are on the left, are actually pretty center.

                It’s very easy to start saying ‘That’s No True Scotsman’, but the political spectrum are not defined by people on them, they aren’t some pre-existing grouping like ‘Scots’.

                The political spectrum is instead a map about a bunch of various different philosophies generalized together and mapped out, and people do sorta have objective positions on…or, if they don’t, it’s because they’re smeared out on it, but that smear occupies specific locations.

                If ‘people on the left’ are voting for the police bothering the homeless, then those ‘people on the left’ are not actually very far on the left. At least, not in that particular way. (But probably not in other ways also.)

                Which is, of course, something BLM is already extremely aware of. Almost every major city that is operated by Democrats is operated by a collection of mostly conservative Democrats.

                That’s actually how it works, and our framing of that within the party system is really silly, because the parties being ideologically pure at the Federal level is fairly recent, only a quarter of a century-old for Republicans and exactly _now_ old for Democrats. And it certainly hasn’t filtered down to the city level.

                Seattle is not a ‘left’ city. It is a Democratic city with an extremely thin veneer of wealthy white liberalism.

                All you really have to do to check this is say the phrase ‘Property values’. Any government that prioritizes ‘property values’ over an actual societal good is not operated by ‘left-leaning people’.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                It’s left in that there are a lot of hard leftist people running about, and the city council panders to them hard.

                But those people don’t pay the taxes.

                Still, all but your most stalwart leftists will start demanding the police do something when they have to keep paying to replace things/repair damage from petty theft. The whosits and whatsits of the homeless camp won’t matter a lick once the crime starts to spike. Never doubt the ability of people to appeal to authority once they stop feeling secure in their homes.Report

              • Avatar Zac Black in reply to Oscar Gordon
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                says:

                “[…]and the city council panders to them hard.”

                No, they don’t. If you think they do, then you either don’t live in this city or you don’t know what you’re talking about. Or both.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Zac Black
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                says:

                I live on the East side, I pay attention to Seattle politics.

                Obviously Sawant grabs all the headlines (Herbold and Morales also come to mind), but the rest all claim to be Democrats and hew Progressive to some degree or another. Perhaps not hard enough for you, but I’m not seeing anyone on the city council telling leftists to go pound sand.

                At best, Durkin is trying to be center left, given how often she backs to SPD even when they are obviously crap.

                But there is nobody in city leadership I would call even remotely center-right.Report

              • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon
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                says:

                If your definition of “center-right” is “kisses Amazon, Tableau, Cray, Zulily, and Redfin’s butt”, everybody in city leadership is a Nazi.Report

              • Avatar Damon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I’m not talking just about protests and such. I’m talking about twitter posts, and articles written, and speeches, and personal video, etc.

                There’s plenty of people on the left making statements about how those on the right should have violence used on them for:

                1) being trump supports
                2) not wearing a mask-or questioning it’s effectiveness, or thinking that gov’ts been too heavy handed in areas
                3) I could go on and on.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Damon
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                says:

                Tell you what – when the same people on the right agree to stop calling me a traitor to the US for being a liberal and voting for democrats we can talk.

                Otherwise grow the thick skin I keep being told to grow and deal with it.Report

      • Avatar Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg
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        says:

        The looting and pillaging was done – or so law enforcement kept telling us – by right wing agitators (in many cases out of stateers too) who took advantage of peaceful civil unrest to try and start something.

        But sure, no one on the right is in any way at fault, least of all not the current President.Report

        • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H
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          says:

          This is deeply confused. There are isolated reports of a couple of cases in which right-wingers may have participated in the rioting, or even launched full-on false-flag attacks. I’m not sure how much stock to put in these reports, since the one I did dig into turned out to be misrepresented, with the police report not actually saying what was claimed, but even if all of them are true, there’s still no question that the vast majority of the damage done during these riots was done by left-wingers.

          The far right does bad things, too, but trying to pin the George Floyd riots on them is just delusional.Report

      • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Brandon Berg
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        says:

        You also see the left wing equivalent a lot WRT gun bans/confiscations, where people who wants all the guns taken away are happy to let the police do that.

        It’s the exact same crap, people who are just utterly impatient and basically spoiled adults who don’t want to do the work to convince enough people that they are right.

        Right, left, it doesn’t matter, it’s hyperbolic BS rhetoric that does nothing to move the ball in whatever direction, and actually gets the opposition further entrenched.

        Which tells me Andrew is right that it’s not about moving the ball, it’s about the grift, and keeping the money and status rolling in.Report

        • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon
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          says:

          Yeah. “We need more gun laws!” will become stuff like “We need more laws like the Bartley-Fox Law!”

          “What’s the Bartley-Fox Law?”
          “It’s a law that sets a mandatory minimum for anyone illegally carrying a handgun.”
          “Yeah, that’s great!”

          (A few years later.)

          “Why are there so many people in jail? And disproportionately from the wrong side of the tracks?”Report

      • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Brandon Berg
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        says:

        Being murdered by the police is not delusional, particularly immediately after the police murdered someone.Report

  5. Avatar James K
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    says:

    Well said Andrew.Report

  6. Avatar greginak
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    says:

    Applauds. Good stuff.Report

  7. Avatar Brandon Berg
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    says:

    [Commented at the wrong place]Report

  8. Avatar Philip H
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    says:

    You could have just written this and been done:

    Anyone, regardless of their prior accomplishments, titles, experiences, or appeals who calls for secession or civil war is not doing so for the good of America. They are not after the peace and prosperity of all, or the rights of all citizens to purse them. They are not “merely asking questions” or being clever or coming up with anything new. It is not quite treason, narrowly defined by the Constitution and the Supreme Court as actually “levying war” against the government or “adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort,” not just talking, conspiring, or hoping for it online or for fundraising. But the same wicked spirit is there, and those skirting that line for personal gain should be seen, marked, and called out for what they are: the unworthy schemers who, far from wanting law and order and freedom, only use such words to entice others into subjugation. Such folks have always been, and always will be. And they must be constantly contended against, and defeated, and scattered to the far recesses of our society generation after generation, if the Union and the Constitution are to endure. And endure they must, if the greatest experiment in a free people self-governing is to outlive the unworthy schemers constantly arrayed against it. Both from within and without.

    Report

  9. Avatar Kazzy
    Ignored
    says:

    “Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the Constitution.”

    It is remarkable how much the irony of this statement is lost on him. Like, it makes me wonder if he even knows what the Constitution IS.Report

  10. Avatar Chip Daniels
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    says:

    Yes, a well written piece.
    To which I can only add, this is not over, and won’t be for a long while yet.

    It occurs to me that most of us- that is, us who came of age in the late 20th century and are part of the dominant culture- have never experienced having to fight for our basic rights and freedoms.

    Its easy for us to take it for granted that elections are basically fair and that the government pretty much accurately represents the wishes of the electorate. Other people of course, have understood nd experienced a lack of freedom and representation forever.

    Even after January 21st, the fascists will still be here among us, threatening or carrying out legal or violent attacks on our elected government and public institutions, refusing to accept the decisions made by the citizens.

    So we are living in a new reality, where we have to struggle every day and every day just to defend democracy.Report

  11. Avatar Pinky
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    says:

    I disagree with this piece.

    I’d guess 90% of the politically aware have said things in the past two months that were equally absurd as West’s statement, just as overheated, and just as sincere. There are people who believe they’re good actors, and usually are good actors, who look at some of the legitimate questions from the election, mixed with a lot of distortions, and see something different than most of us do. They see the media not merely failing to entertain the questions, but questioning their own motives for considering those questions, and they don’t trust anyone right about now. And truthfully, when I see a headline like “Supreme Court Refuses Trump Plot to Steal Election”, I’m not 100% sure there isn’t a little editorializing going on there.

    And I said questioning the motives of the upset right, but this article doesn’t even do that courtesy. It accuses them of acting in bad faith. Who does that help? Does it defuse the situation? I’d love to know how to reach people who are upset, and while I don’t know what would work, I could almost guarantee that this article would push them further toward the edge.Report

    • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky
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      says:

      Why does the situation need to be “defused”?

      One party won the election for President, and the other party gained seats in Congress and perhaps held their majority in the Senate. Both parties won or lost seats in state legislatures around the country. The election was free and fair and generally represents the wishes of the American citizens.

      So why is there some “situation” which needs to be “defused”?

      Who is moving to this “edge” and why are they choosing to move there?Report

      • Avatar Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        A large percentage of the population doesn’t believe the election was fair, you may have heard. I think the article mentions them. I believe the article also says that that’s not a good situation. It’s been a while since I read the article, and maybe I should reread it just to make sure, but for the time being let’s just assume I didn’t misunderstand it, and it did say something about things being a bit tense.Report

        • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky
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          says:

          Why do they persist in believing this, even after it has been debunked in over 50 court cases?Report

          • Avatar InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
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            says:

            The same reason a bunch of people kept insisting that the 2016 election was somehow stolen by the Russians. The only difference is those people were smart enough to adjudicate their assertions in fact free zones like MSNBC and Congress instead of the courts.Report

            • Avatar Philip H in reply to InMD
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              says:

              The only difference is those people were smart enough to adjudicate their assertions in fact free zones like MSNBC and Congress instead of the courts.

              Me thinks you doth protest too much – https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/25/muellers-russia-report-special-counsel-indictments-charges/3266050002/Report

              • Avatar InMD in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Dude. Your own source:

                ‘But before wrapping up, Mueller’s investigation did result in indictments for 34 individuals – seven of whom have been convicted so far – including some senior members of the Trump campaign (although none of the charges involved a conspiracy between the campaign and Russians).’

                If your assertion is that Trump’s cronies are, were, and always have been slimy, corrupt people who should never have been allowed power you will get no disagreement from me. But let’s be real about all the, shall we say, leaps away from verifiable facts being taken and the escalation it feeds.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to InMD
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                says:

                Dude – let’s also be clear that russia and russians were indicted by Mr. Mueller and while he found no conspiracies he chose to prosecute, he didn’t issue those indictments on a whim. I was simply reminding you that those on the left claiming Russian election interference do in fact have court actions to back them up. Of course we also have the conclusions of those lefty commie pinkos in the Senate Intelligence Committee (whose chair for the reports, as now, was a hard core Trump supporter) and the 17 American intelligence services that Russia interfered. They all worked from verifiable facts.

                But sure I’m engaged in unhinged ranting. SMDH.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                You should fact-check the “17 American intelligence services” line before citing it.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                There are 4 agencies involved in the assessments that the DNI and others have discussed the last 4 years. There are 17 total intelligence agencies – and none of the 13 not involved in the assessments have been reported to disagree with the conclusions as distributed. Over here in government world thats as good as it gets.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                If there are 140 government agencies which aren’t involved in intelligence appraisals, would you say that 144 agencies cited Russian interference? If you repeat Clinton lines that have been known to be inaccurate for four years, you don’t sound awfully trustworthy.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                According to former DNI Dan Coates (quoted in 2017 while still on the job) there are 17 intelligence agencies. According to him 4 of them looked at Russian interference. According to him none of the other 13 disagree with the conclusions of the 4. According to him that means the US Intelligence community is in agreement. Last I checked, the DNI is in fact an expert on these things and is legally empowered to speak for them.

                Its not a Clinton quote. But sure, dismiss the conclusion because you don’t like the framing instead of engaging with the substance.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I never said I was engaging with the substance. I said you should fact-check it, and then explained why. If you want me to engage with the substance, then first tell me how many intelligence agencies said that the Russian interference was coordinated with the Trump campaign.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                I did.Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                With the Trump campaign?Report

            • Avatar Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
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              says:

              But-but whattabout…!

              The Democratic Party did not claim that Russia changed votes.

              Russia did flood social media with disinformation and hacked emails. This is a fact, not an opinion.

              The claims about this election are fantasies without any evidence.Report

        • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky
          Ignored
          says:

          Why is it tense? Why is there this disbelief?

          Because Trumpists are working overtime to allege that somehow, magically, the Presidential election was stolen, but not the mass of down ballot races that went to the GOP?

          What should be done about this? How do you defuse that tension? Audits were done, recounts were done, investigations were run, legal challenges were filed, etc.

          What else do you propose to do to defuse things? Everyone should just sit quietly by while people like Trump and West continue to stoke the flames?Report

          • Avatar Brandon Berg in reply to Oscar Gordon
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            says:

            Because Trumpists are working overtime to allege that somehow, magically, the Presidential election was stolen, but not the mass of down ballot races that went to the GOP?

            Well, if I were rigging elections, that’s what I would do. Get Trump out to keep the Republicans from doing anything too stupid, and get enough Republicans in Congress to keep the Democrats from doing anything too stupid.

            I would really have liked to be a part of this conspiracy, and I’m hurt that nobody invited me to participate.Report

          • Avatar Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon
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            says:

            I don’t know how to stabilize things. I know some decent people that I’ve agreed with a lot over the years who have lost faith in the system. I can tell you that fact-checks from George Stephanopoulos aren’t going to help, and we’re paying the price for lacking neutral sources. I mean, was it even a month ago that the networks were telling us that the Hunter Biden story had all the earmarks of a Russian fabrication? Where’s my really strong argument that you should believe the mainstream narrative? We’ve been cashing bad checks at the Bank of Credibility for so long now, I’m grasping for an idea how we can get back to reasonable standards.Report

            • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky
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              says:

              I can tell you that playing appeasement politics to hyperbolic blowhards is not going to get you anywhere close to where you want to be.

              Yes, the media has bankrupted most of it’s credibility over the past 4 years, but that’s merely a connected issue.

              Note that the OP doesn’t necessarily go after the everyday Americans who have lost faith, it goes after the feckless pundits and politicians who encourage that lost faith for themselves.

              You are a catholic, right? Is that not how the devil works? Wedges in the cracks of human frailty to undermine the institution and faith in it?Report

    • Avatar Mark from NJ in reply to Pinky
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      says:

      It is absolutely correct and fair to state that the people in leadership positions perpetuating this garbage are acting in bad faith. That doesn’t mean the average person who falls for that is acting in bad faith, but maybe those who fall for it will be less likely to if they realize that the people they are listening to are acting in bad faith.

      When they have been asked to present evidence of actual fraud in these cases in court, they have repeatedly and consistently declined to do so. They simply do not make the allegations in court that they make to their followers. Indeed, when asked by judges, they consistently concede and represent that they are not making fraud claims.

      In total they have lost 59 cases in court, and probably close to or over 100 decisions at all levels. They have won exactly one case, affecting a few dozen ballots that were never counted in the first place. They have not only lost, but they have lost badly and decisively.

      They have lost when the judges have been federal judges and when they have been state judges. When the judges have been elected ans appointed. When the judges have been Democrats, and, mostly, when they have been Republicans. And they have lost many of these when the judges were appointed by Trump himself.

      They have lost on standing (meaning they can’t show an injury in fact), and laches (meaning they were OK with the rules before the election and thus implying further their post election claims are in bad faith), and all sorts of other grounds. Including, frequently, the actual merits of their claims, which have been found consistently to be nonexistent under even the minimum of scrutiny.

      Yet they keep bringing the same claims in different courts. What lawyers call forum shopping. Which is, again, proof of bad faith.

      Perhaps most damning of all, though, is the statement from Thomas and Alito. They would have allowed the Texas complaint to be filed for reasons consistent with their long held views on original jurisdiction (which are reasonable even if long disfavored by the rest of the court). Except theu stated that they would have immediately denied any relief to Texas and Trump. In other words, even they were adamant that these claims are all a load of bs.

      Yet Team Trump continues. It’s profitable for them. How many hundreds of millions have they raised that they can readily divert into their own pockets? How much revenue has Newsmax earned with its higher ratings by perpetuating all this? OANN? It is a grift, and these people know it.

      I suppose the Krakenites have tried to actually allege fraud in court. Except that in the process they have relied on demonstrably and intentionally falsified documents (eg, removing operative language from an exhibit and then claiming that the lack of that language was proof of fraud), submitting anonymous expert affidavits (which, I assure you, every lawyer knows is not a thing you can do) that were blatantly falsified, as well as other affidavits that were blatantly and demonstrably falsified (eg, claiming MN data was in fact MI data), and even, incredibly, claiming to represent someone who was not their client and file a suit on their behalf without authorization.

      And let’s talk about Trump himself. He has claimed that every election that has not gone his way in the last 8 years was fraudulent, every time changing the reasons for his claims after getting caught lying with his previous claims.

      He insisted the 2012 election was rigged without any basis. Then he insisted his caucus loss in Iowa was because the party leadership committed fraud and rigged the election. Then he insisted that the only way he could lose in 2016 would be because of illegal immigrants voting; when he won anyway but lost the popular vote, he insisted he only lost the popular vote because of the illegal immigrants and entailed a commission featuring Kris frigging Kobach to report on this. That commission of course fell apart without making a report when it couldn’t find any evidence to support its claims.

      Then of course he insisted that Bernie sanders only lost in the primaries because those were somehow rigged, too.

      And now he gave us a preview before the election when he repeatedly said, despite all the evidence, that the only way he could lose would be because of fraud.

      See the pattern here?

      Then to make sure the bs gets traction, he and his toadies threaten anyone within his sphere of influence (which is considerable when you’re POTUS) who dares not play along vocally enough.

      It is bad faith intended to deceive millions of people. And in that it has succeeded because those millions cannot believe someone would do such a thing in bad faith. So it’s time to call it what it is.Report

      • Avatar Pinky in reply to Mark from NJ
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        says:

        I don’t know what’s in anyone’s heart. When a team of Innocence Project lawyers fight to keep a person from being executed, I’d guess that they pursue every channel that they can think of, even with their long-shots. It seems to me that for every questionable statistical inference that’s being presented as if it’s a fact, there’s a violation of the Pennsylvania Constitution that raises at least an interesting question.

        I think my primary point in responding to this article is that I’m worried about the tensions, and I don’t think it helps at all in de-escalating things. A lot of people identify with their leaders, obviously, and are going to interpret attacks on the leaders’ credibility as attacks on their own. Moreover, in the internet age, the term “leaders” is arbitrary, since everyone’s an author and activist. I truthfully have no idea what percentage of each person’s claims are true or false, well-intentioned or bad-intentioned.Report

        • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
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          says:

          It seems to me that for every questionable statistical inference that’s being presented as if it’s a fact, there’s a violation of the Pennsylvania Constitution that raises at least an interesting question.

          Bull. Those have been adjudicated as well. They are as non-existent as the ballot fraud they can’t allege in court. As such you can make judgements on the truth of a person’s claims. That you and other’s don’t want to accede to the truth is your problem.

          We spent four years being told to “understand” Trump and his supporters. And we do. They are authoritarians who want to preserve white, male, nominally conservative legal and economic power by any means necessary. They do not value “one person one vote” and have no qualms lying to each other and their supporters to achieve that end. They prefer over the top public displays and threats of violence to actually negotiations.

          De-escalation would require them to admit publicly they had lied in service of their agenda. For decades. They will not do that. They will not de-escalate. And the left can’t do it for them.Report

          • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            I don’t remember the PA Supreme Court ruling on the constitutionality of the process, only on the lack of due diligence.Report

            • Avatar Mark from NJ in reply to Pinky
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              says:

              The PA case is a great illustration of the bad faith here. The legislation in question was passed over a year ago. Before the pandemic. It was legislation that the Republicans in PA sponsored. The Republicans in the state legislature supported it UNANIMOUSLY. Elections prior to the general election were held under that legislation.

              Not one person challenged it in court even though several lawsuits were filed challenging the implementation of it pre-election (suits that were in fact decided on the merits because they were properly filed).

              Then, when it became clear that the wrong person won a single race- by a meaningful margin, no less, weeks after the election, some of the same people who were behind the legislation suddenly decided that maybe the rules they themselves had created were not only wrong, but should be actively reversed retroactively. To their sole and exclusive benefit.

              That is the absolute epitome of bad faith – seeking to change the rules that you yourself created after the fact because you don’t like the results. You don’t get to encourage people to act in reliance on the law that you created and then say “oh, just kidding, now your vote doesn’t count at all.” If you tried to pull a stunt like that in a contracts case, you would literally be found liable for “breach of the covenant of good faith,” and possibly even fraud in the inducement.

              And it should further be emphasized that even the two justices in PA who would have allowed the case to proceed explicitly stated that they would have done so only on a prospective basis – even they would not have allowed the election results to be touched.

              In other words, even they were of the view that if there were an interesting question here, to provide any form of emergency relief/prevent certification would be changing the rules of the game after the game was played.

              In other words, whether or not there is an interesting constitutional question under PA law does not change the fact that the relief being sought is being sought in bad faith and cannot be rewarded.Report

            • Avatar Philip H in reply to Pinky
              Ignored
              says:

              In its ruling, the high court unanimously dismissed a lawsuit that claimed that a 2019 state law allowing no-excuse absentee ballots was unconstitutional.

              https://www.npr.org/sections/biden-transition-updates/2020/11/29/939859062/pennsylvania-supreme-court-rejects-republican-suit-to-throw-out-ballotsReport

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                The link and I agree that the PA Supreme Court didn’t rule on the constitutionality of the process. Would you like to share more links that agree with me?Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                That’s because it was filed in bad faith.

                Had they filed the lawsuit right after the law passed, there would have been time to hear arguments about the constitutional question.

                If they want to pursue the lawsuit after the election and get the question answered for the next election, they still can.

                But you can not demand the courts tackle that question after the election is underway/over in an attempt to throw out ballots. That is the definition of bad faith, because there was plenty of time to tackle that question, but no one saw fit to file suit back then.Report

              • Avatar Gabriel Conroy in reply to Oscar Gordon
                Ignored
                says:

                you can not demand the courts tackle that question after the election is underway/over in an attempt to throw out ballots. That is the definition of bad faith, because there was plenty of time to tackle that question, but no one saw fit to file suit back then.

                I’m mostly onboard with what you and Mark are saying, but I’m not so sure you’re right here. Wouldn’t someone have to lose in an election before they would have standing to contest the rules on which the election is based?

                Okay, I probably misunderstand how standing works. But even so, it’s not exactly unheard of to contest a law in court that one previously endorsed or that one had declined to criticize.

                Note: I’m not justifying the lawsuits and I agree that almost all (maybe all) of the fraud claims are b.s. and in bad faith.Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                The guy in Pennsylvania won his own election but supports Mr. Trump and so wanted just the presidential stuff tossed.Report

              • Avatar Mark from NJ in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                This is incorrect. There is absolutely standing to challenge election laws and procedures before an election. This year, such challenges happened in a number of instances (as I expect they occur in most elections), including the case regarding late-received ballots in PA that remains with SCOTUS at the moment but had a lengthy history in PA. That suit was not decided on standing grounds.

                Similarly the cases in Texas pre election regarding drive through voting in Houston, which were decided in the GOPs favor.

                Amongst others.Report

              • Avatar Mark from NJ in reply to Mark from NJ
                Ignored
                says:

                Further underscoring all of this: prior to the election, the GOP argument was that you’re not allowed to change the rules of the election too close to the election when people have already begun to rely on the rules already in place. This is a reasonable argument well supported by caselaw and they were very successful with this argument.

                Now though they’re argument is the literal opposite, except more extrreme – their argument is that it’s OK to change the rules of the election retroactively and discard any votes made in reliance on the rules in play on and prior to election day.

                Even crazier is that, in the case of PA, the rules they are seeking to retroactively change are rules that they themselves created just a year ago.

                So they created rules, induced millions of people to rely on those rules and now claim that anyone who relied on those rules that they created should be penalized by having their vote retroactively cancelled to the sole benefit of the people who created the rules.

                I can’t think of a better example of a bad faith argument.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Mark from NJ
                Ignored
                says:

                Say, for the sake of argument, that the expansion of mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania was illegal. Who thinks that the right remedy is to toss millions of ballot cast in good faith and according to the agreed rules in place at the time?

                People trying, in complete bad faith, to steal the election. And, to be fair, some honest and upright crazy people.Report

              • Avatar Mark from NJ in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                Yup.Report

              • Avatar Gabriel Conroy in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                Thanks Mark (and JS). I guess I misunderstood standing.

                I still think that just because someone supported a law and didn’t challenge it doesn’t mean they ought not be able to challenge it after they’re screwed by it.

                Of course, that depends on whether they’re actually being “screwed” by the law. In this case, I agree that the Republicans are (to put it kindly) operating hypocritically. And I agree the fraud claims are b.s. and in bad faith.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                Say the NFL increases the penalty for flagrantly roughing the passer to a 4-game suspension. Midway through the season, after two of your opponents have lost players to that rule, it’s called on your top pass-rusher.

                You protest the game, calling the rule unfair and outside the league’s authority, insist that you really won every one of those four games you lost, and tweet “NEXT THEY’LL MAKE US WEAR DRESSES!!!!” ten times a day.

                Congratulations! You’re Donald Trump!Report

              • Avatar Gabriel Conroy in reply to Mike Schilling
                Ignored
                says:

                Sigh. I guess I’m just not doing a good job explaining myself.

                Again, I’m not trying to justify the Republicans’ efforts to steal the election. I agree that the their claims are baseless and in bad faith.Report

              • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                I didn’t mean you, Gabriel, but a general you, Trump ally. Sorry for being unclear.Report

              • Avatar Gabriel Conroy in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                To elaborate. I’ve made two arguments.

                One was about standing, and Mark and JS have shown me how and why I was wrong. I cop to it. I was wrong.

                The other argument was about whether one ought to be able to challenge a law that they previously endorsed and may have even championed. I think that they should be able to–in the sense that the fact they once supported it shouldn’t, by itself, invalidate their ability to challenge the law.

                As I’ve noted in every comment here, I agree that what the Republicans are doing is making fraudulent, bad-faith claims.

                I’ll go a step further: they have lost the chance to challenge the election laws and their remedy is to throw out way too many votes than the purported “harm” caused (i.e., they want to disfranchse voters).

                I’m willing to admit that when it comes to certain types of laws, like election laws, the time to challenge the process should probably be before the election, for both practical reasons (that’s when the fix is likely to work best) and for fairness reasons (the fifth down quarterbacking is usually more harmful than the original “violation.”)

                I’m not willing to state, as a blanket rule, that the fact someone agreed to or supported a law means they can never challenge it when it’s used against them. I agree that that characterization doesn’t begin to describe the Republicans’ shenanigans. So it’s right to criticize them.

                Finally, I’ll admit I haven’t been clear enough in my comments. That lack of clarify bespeaks a certain confusion and ignorance on my part that you–long with Mark, JS, and others–have helped alleviate. So, I guess I shouldn’t have said “sigh.”Report

              • Avatar DavidTC in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                their remedy is to throw out way too many votes than the purported “harm” caused (i.e., they want to disfranchse voters).

                I think this is something most people skim right past, and it’s actually vitally important. Because what they are asking to happen literally cannot in court. I don’t mean their claims are bad and unproven (they are) or that their claims aren’t even of fraud (they aren’t), I mean the court cannot end up doing the thing they want. Even if every single one of the Trumpist ‘allegations’ were true (Or, rather, if the lawsuit even _made_ the allegations they had been repeating in public), the courts will never, under any circumstances whatsoever, allow throwing out all those votes as a remedy.

                Because the premise of these lawsuits is ‘This voting fraud has diluted my vote’. People harmed that way cannot propose, as a remedy, that everyone else _including themselves_ be harmed even more, by not having their vote counted at all, to ‘solve’ this wrong.

                This is the equivalent of asserting that some random person ran into your car while it was parked, damaging it, and you don’t know who. So you would like the court to direct that every car in the state, including your own, be crushed in a car crusher. To ‘make things fair’.

                Lawsuits don’t exist to try to ‘make things fair’. They exist to try to fix wrongs done to you. You cannot fix the wrong of ‘My vote was counted less than it should have been due to some fraud’ with ‘I demand my vote by not counted _at all_.’

                Much less ‘I demand no one else’s vote be counted at all’.

                Now you may ask ‘Well, if the courts aren’t going to do that remedy, what would be the proper remedy?’

                Well, in a lot of issues, there aren’t actually remedies of existing situations. The constitution lays out specific procedures, and honestly there doesn’t seem to _be_ a way to fix a fraudulent presidential election from within the court system. Or, really, fix it at all. (Besides impeachment, which you can do before they take office.)

                The court might require some sort of behavior in future elections, but, sometimes there really is no remedy, and you don’t get to say ‘Well, if the harm done to me can’t be fixed, I demand everyone else be harmed!’Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                I think you can toss out fraudulent votes, but first you have to present some manner of evidence that a given set of votes are fraudulent.

                But since no one has presented any actual evidence of fraud (beyond un-corroborated personal statements) that would allow officials to say, “these votes are suspicious and must be examined more closely”.

                AFAICT, every eye witness account seems to still be operating on the idea that someone could casually slip in a few thousand votes, or that the machines are rigging the vote. TTBOMK, every state uses control numbers/tracking on votes, so you can’t just slip in a few thousand. It would take a coordinated conspiracy at multiple levels of government, across multiple states, to pull it off.Report

              • Avatar JS in reply to Gabriel Conroy
                Ignored
                says:

                “Wouldn’t someone have to lose in an election before they would have standing to contest the rules on which the election is based?”

                No. I mean just for an example: Texas’ had an endless flurry of lawsuits about early voting changes, all starting the instant the changes were made. No one had won or lost. In some cases no one had even VOTED yet.

                That “We can’t challenge it until after the election” stuff is garbage — do you honestly think we’ve had a legal and court system for 200+ years that would be that fundamentally broken?

                Why do we even have injunctions and restraining orders if courts could only handle things AFTER injury?Report

              • Avatar Pinky in reply to JS
                Ignored
                says:

                You’re arguing against a point that Gabriel has conceded. He’s not saying “we can’t challenge it until after the election”. He’s asking whether not challenging something early on can *as a blanket rule” prevent them challenging it later. Gabriel was clear about this.Report

              • Avatar J_A in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                I think the concept that it’s missing here is laches, the unreasonable delay in making an assertion or claim, such as asserting a right, claiming a privilege, or making an application for redress, which may result in refusal.

                Challenges need to be made in a timely fashion. You cannot wait until you find out whether the changed rule favors or disfavors you to claim it’s unconstitutional (a claim you won’t make if the rule change ends favoring you)

                That’s why the minority in the PA case said they would have taken the case, but only rule on the constitutionality of it prospectively, for the next election.

                In addition, you cannot claim that certain types of votes are unconstitutional under PA law, but not others. The constitutional claim is not just with respect to the presidential votes. If the remedy is to toss out votes, you have to toss out all votes because they all have the same constitutional defect. Votes for president, for senator, for representative, for dog catcher. They all have the same problem.

                The fact that the requested remedy is only to toss out the presidential votes, but leave the remainder in place is another proof of bad faithReport

  12. Avatar Marchmaine
    Ignored
    says:

    Sometimes we just need the middle to step-up and broker a compromise.

    Voter ID : Vaccine ID
    =
    Unity in ID

    Of course it is preposterous to question the outcome of the election as illegitimate.

    It is, however, a rather preposterous system and we should make it less so. In these fractious days, I think all legislation should be of the “I cut / You chose” methodology.Report

  13. Avatar Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    Like everyone else, I think this is a well written piece but like Chip, I think this will get worse before it gets better: https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1338484357389017090?s=20

    Kapo Miller informed Fox & Friends that they are assembling an alternative group of electors and will send those results to Congress. This ploy will fail like the others but does indicate we can be heading to a world where Trump tries to set up an Avignon Presidency in Florida. Sadly, I can see a world where Trump tweets an “executive order” (probably something about immigration) and the more thugish members of ICE follow him as “the true President.”

    The divorce solution is a simple solution to a complex problem. That problem being the fact that we have stalk cultural-social differences and lots of resentments. These are not going away or dying down anytime soon. But we are divided by census tract, not by state. The U.S. is also too interconnected economically and militarily. What would state of Jefferson bozos do once they discovered that they are cut off from ports on the Pacific for the receipt and sending of goods. Why would the rest of the West Coast want to enter a free trade agreement with them?

    It is a lot of insatiable rage without being well thought out.Report

    • Avatar Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      An alternative slate of electors – and the left is the problem.

      I don’t know, the shooting war version to actually settle this is becoming less objectionable.Report

    • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      As I understand the federal statute, the governors of the states are the ones who transmit the electoral results to Congress. Are Kemp and Ducey on Miller’s side now? Does Miller have alternate governors in the other states?Report

      • Avatar Philip H in reply to Michael Cain
        Ignored
        says:

        Nope and Nope. Take Arizona. The only way for a legally and constitutionally sufficient slate of alternative electors to go forward would be for the state legislature to appoint them. The legislature is current not in session and won’t be until after 6 January 2021. State legislative leaders have not indicated they will call a special session in the next 3 weeks to address this. So there are no legal electors that can be presented to the Senate as an alternate.

        Any court of competent jurisdiction looking at any petition going forward to remove electors or invalidate votes will look at this and then deny any such legal action. At this point its all deeply dangerous undemocratic performance art which could have deadly consequences.Report

    • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      “the more thugish members of ICE follow him as “the true President.” ”

      Remind me again why we have public service unions that would protect such people from getting fired on the spot?Report

      • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
        Ignored
        says:

        Because those are the only unions that Republicans haven’t worked to break sine Reagan. On account of the fact they mostly vote Republican.Report

        • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
          Ignored
          says:

          All public service unions, or just LE & FD Unions?Report

          • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
            Ignored
            says:

            No one has tried to can off LEO and FD unions. Many municipalities tried to neuter other public service unions by privatizing public functions – only to find complaints went up, service went down. and even the Trump Administration has tried to run unions out of the few places they remain in the federal workforce.

            If you meant voting – best I can tell FD and LE unions lean heavily conservative, which inmost places means republican. Most other unions lean liberal, which in most places means democratic. Also last I checked the AFL-CIO isn’t publicly sticking up for the police. But I could be wrong on that.Report

            • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
              Ignored
              says:

              I meant voting, yes.

              But I’m equally against all PS Unions, not just AFL-CIO types. I can just as easily see other government employees playing similar games depending on their politics.

              Actually, you tell me, if a public sector employee decided to follow an EO from ex-POTUS Trump, is that a fire-able offense, or would the AFL-CIO stand up for the employee?Report

              • Avatar Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon
                Ignored
                says:

                well the AFL-CIO doesn’t represent federal employees, and our unions aren’t aligned organizations.

                That aside – yes it would be a fire-able offense. Former Presidents have NO legal authority over current federal employees, civil or otherwise. The federal employee law enforcement unions might get into it if its one of their officers, but as it has yet to happen I have no idea how it would actually be carried out.Report

              • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H
                Ignored
                says:

                Thank you, good to know that ideally, it’s fire-able.

                Of course, with LE Unions, there are a lot of things they protect members from that I would think are fire-able…Report

    • Avatar Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      Thing is, survey after survey has shown that there actually aren’t a lot of stark differences across our society. There are the far-left and far-right camps, but the bulk of the country sits somewhere in the middle, when it comes down to brass tacks.

      The grifters are just selling the hell out of the threats posed by the fringe, because the grift is the thing; and the internet is a great medium for being inflammatory just to get a rise out of people and likes/retweets give everyone that dopamine hit.Report

  14. Avatar Mark from NJ
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks for this, Andrew.Report

  15. Avatar J_A
    Ignored
    says:

    I think that the next (big) step in this saga will come in very deep red states. For conversation sake, without really knowing anything about them, Alabama, Arkansas, Kansas, Nebraska Oklahoma, or the Dakotas, states that strongly vote Republican and tat joined Texas in the Texas vs Pennsylvania litigation

    What will be the reaction of a significant percentage of the voters in those states when, after being told, and becoming convinced, about missive electoral fraud, when their state does nothing (I’m not counting the LARPing that was Texas vs Pennsylvania) to confront the illegitimacy of the Federal government and the Biden administration.

    Will they take it passively – the Supreme Court ruled against us, tough luck- and move on, or will they demand that the authorities of those states take further action.

    I do not see (yet) an scenario where purplish states -like Texas or Arizona- experience any kind of turmoil. The population is very evenly divided, and even if the GOP controls the government, the economic forces lean Democratic, keeping everything in balance.

    But I do not see how a governor or legislator in the Dakotas can withstand the pressure to “do something” when 60% of their electorate demands it.

    I would like to hear the view of someone that is familiar with states like thoseReport

    • Avatar Philip H in reply to J_A
      Ignored
      says:

      You missed Mississippi . . . and let me tell you our governor has managed to get himself over a barrel, mostly for COVID mask and stay home order issues. Lots of conservative whit Mississippians are ready to throw him under the proverbial bus for that, which means he is going to be looking for something to save his skin. Our two reliably Trump supporting Senators have stayed out of the fray so far, but my Congressman is one of the 126 . . . .

      that said I don’t know that violence comes immediately. I think a LOT of these folks are now guaranteed to be primaried from the Right and given that our state elections are off cycle to presidential elections, that will come first. I also agree with the analysis published on other outlets that solid red states are likely to retrench on mail in voting and ID requirements, the Kansas loss at SCOTUS yesterday notwithstanding.

      I think the worse issue is what happens when Trump gets indicted by both NYC and the NY Attorney General . . . .Report

    • Avatar Michael Cain in reply to J_A
      Ignored
      says:

      Will they take it passively[?]

      For the most part, yes.

      They’ve already done what they currently see as their part: sent Senators and loaded up the courts for the next 20 years. They’ve been losing the population war for decades and know it. From 2000, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Mississippi have all lost a House seat. Alabama looks to have dodged the bullet this time, but it will be close.

      There will be lots of whining. But none of them are going to declare war on their own urban/suburban areas. It’s one thing for rural Nebraska to be outraged over the (supposedly) massive fraud happening in Pennsylvania. It’s an entirely different thing for them to accuse Omaha, Lincoln, and their suburbs — officially a majority of the state’s population come the census results, and increasingly Democratic — of shenanigans.

      I’ve said it before: to win Nebraska, you don’t have to win the really rural parts of the state. Urban/suburban will carry the day.Report

    • Avatar Douglas Hayden in reply to J_A
      Ignored
      says:

      Given that taking it actively would require consequences – such as the six yutzes in Michigan who took their dreampolitik into the real world and were handed federal indictments today – I’m fairly certain they will take it passively. They won’t let you take your MyPIllows and McNaughton artwork into the state pen, after all.Report

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